How to go abut setting VTA?

[magiccarpetride]

Recent discussions prompted me to do some more reading on VTA and the effects it can have on the sound quality. What I took away from my brief study is the conclusion that optimal VTA can vary from LP to LP. But for each particular LP, optimal VTA can only be determined empirically, that is to say, by LISTENING.

Here is where I get confused -- if I am to determine an optimal VTA by listening, that means that I would have to play the record and listen to it, stop the playback, modify the VTA, play the record again and listen to the effects new VTA brought, then stop the playback, readjust the VTA and so on. Rinse, repeat.

So the above exercise means that I'll be in the short period dragging the stylus repeatedly over the same grooves, as I'm fishing for the best results. So where's the problem? Well, from what I've learned about the vinyl playback, each time the stylus is tracking the grooves, the friction generates fairly high heat. And since the vinyl is pretty susceptible to high temperatures, repeat friction may permanently alter and even damage the grooves. That's why it is recommended to wait at the minimum one hour before replaying the same side of an LP.

This fishing-for-results approach to VTA setting seems to put the grooves at risk. Especially if we're talking some rare, valuable pressing. So how do you guys go about mitigating this risk of damaging your grooves while playing with VTA?

[killie99]

Set it and forget it.

[Stratmangler]

Pete Riggle

[Barry]

With all arms I set up the VTA so the arm tube is parallel with the record surface. Then I will play around with the VTF (starting with say 0.25g below the manufacturer's maximum recommended value, and adjust in small increments around that). Having found the best VTF to my ears, I then check the VTA. Usually it won't have changed from the arm being parallel with the record, but if it has, then it is restored so the arm is parallel.

With an arm which does allows user adjustment of VTA whilst the record is being played, then this parameter is adjusted using a long record track (usually some classical music). Again in most cases I find that I end up with the VTA being such that the arm is parallel to the record. I certainly don't replay the same track repeatedly over and over again. I don't look at the stylus cantilever, nor do I use a USB microscope to measure the SRA; for some cartridges such as the Decca, there is no cantilever to see!

Once set up it is left set - I certainly don't mess around changing things depending on the thickness (weight) of the record being played.

[Stratmangler]

http://www.vtaf.com/3ptmount.html

[magiccarpetride]

With all arms I set up the VTA so the arm tube is parallel with the record surface. Then I will play around with the VTF (starting with say 0.25g below the manufacturer's maximum recommended value, and adjust in small increments around that). Having found the best VTF to my ears, I then check the VTA. Usually it won't have changed from the arm being parallel with the record, but if it has, then it is restored so the arm is parallel.

With an arm which does allows user adjustment of VTA whilst the record is being played, then this parameter is adjusted using a long record track (usually some classical music). Again in most cases I find that I end up with the VTA being such that the arm is parallel to the record. I certainly don't replay the same track repeatedly over and over again. I don't look at the stylus cantilever, nor do I use a USB microscope to measure the SRA; for some cartridges such as the Decca, there is no cantilever to see!

Once set up it is left set - I certainly don't mess around changing things depending on the thickness (weight) of the record being played.

This totally makes sense. Providing, of course, that we subscribe to the 'set it and forget it' mantra. But as far as I'm aware, there are people who prefer to tweak VTA for each and every LP they play. In which case, they'd be forced to keep replaying the same grooves over and over until they reach satisfactory sound.

[karma67]

yeah but unless you vta 'on the fly' thats insane! :)

[struth]

I have et a few who have a changed vta to thickness of record. they have a chart and it is just a quick change. You need a fancy arm I guess. Ive never altered my sme since I got it. It always looks close enough as not to be an issue(for me)

[walpurgis]

yeah but unless you vta 'on the fly' thats insane! :)

Well lets face it. Nobody is obliged to be right in the head to be here! ;)

[karma67]

i use feeler gauges!
thats how round the twist iam am!!!!:eek:

[magiccarpetride]

yeah but unless you vta 'on the fly' thats insane! :)

I read about one nutcas... er, audiophile who had built a tiny motor into his tonearm so that he can dick around with VTA using a remote controller while the record is playing!

[magiccarpetride]

According to the nutcas... er audiophiles at www.better-records.com, they sometimes spend hours on end adjusting their VTA. Makes me wonder what consequences that relentless replaying over the same grooves might afflict the poor LPs that are used as guinea pigs?

[karma67]

to be fair some cartridges like the 2m black need the vta setting properly to get the best from them,if that fuks up 1 record i couldn't care less,with that cartridge just setting the tonearm level just wont do it.

[walpurgis]

I read about one nutcas... er, audiophile who had built a tiny motor into his tonearm so that he can dick around with VTA using a remote controller while the record is playing!

Why mess about like that. Just put a small helical adjuster under the ball at the bottom of the platter main bearing? Platter then goes up and down at will (however Will is :D).

[killie99]

Changing VTA for every record is bonkers unless the record is of uniform thickness and ruler flat

[Nigel]

I thought the correct vta is usually when the bottom of the cartridge is running parallel with the LP surface. It doesn't matter if the tonearm is also parallel.

[Simon_LDT]

I usually make sure the arm is parallel with the platter and leave it at that. There is no way I'm faffing with it for different record thickness, I've got loads of different ones and even 180g might not always be the exact same thickness. I've never gone too far down the rabbit hole on VTA but I do wonder if it really matters as much as some claim. Like mentioned above by Stuart, the record itself will need to be ruler flat anyway, a slight warp or dishing throws it all off.

I've always thought too that surely the cart suspension helps with this, to make sure the stylus sits in the groove properly and creating the angle it needs - of course you'd need to be in the ballpark to begin with.

[Barry]

I thought the correct vta is usually when the bottom of the cartridge is running parallel with the LP surface. It doesn't matter if the tonearm is also parallel.

The housing of many cartridges is such that the bottom of the cartridge is not parallel with the top. In that regard the stylus rake angle (SRA) is a better parameter to measure, but is much more difficult to do so, and depends on the VTF.

The VTA is the angle between a notional line running from the cantilever pivot point (itself ill-defined) to the point of contact of the stylus with the groove wall (again not exactly defined), and the record surface. It has nothing to do with cartridge body or housing.

[1200reasons]

Regardless of how you feel about the guy and his opinions, Roy Gandy's VTA factsheet (http://mackiefamily.unospace.net/documents/regaonvta.html)is pretty convincing.

I usually just set it to "doesn't look too ridiculous" and settle on that. Never done any blind tests though

[karma67]

not to me its not or every other 2m black owner who will tell you their cartridge sounds much better tail down.

[1200reasons]

In the factsheet he recommends tail down.

[karma67]

https://youtu.be/WEhS9Y9HYjU

[alphaGT]

There is much geometry going on with adjusting a record needle. The idea of adjusting VTA is to get the diamond tip to set at the correct angle in the groove (SRA) . I see in magazines and on other analog websites they use USB microscopes. But a good magnifying glass is all I need. Different manufacturers will sometimes list the correct angle. And if they don't, 92 degrees is a good average angle. Leaning slightly forward.

Of course adjusting the VTF will also change this angle. But that changes the pressure on the suspension. When a cartridge is fairly new, it's good to keep the tracking force at medium, or more. As the suspension starts to break in over time, you can reduce the tracking force to put less pressure on it, and allow the cantilever to keep a healthy angle. I.e. Keeping the coils centered in the magnetic field. Keeping the bottom of a box type cartridge level with the record is a great place to start, but it's only a starting point. And of course record thickness can affect the SRA, but we don't want to undo all of the adjusting we did for the suspension, so adjusting the VTA can fix the SRA back to 92 degrees. And once you've got 92 degrees, it's still worth adjusting by ear. As the truth is, even on expensive cartridges if you look really close, you can see that diamonds are not always perfectly attached to the cantilever. So listening is always the last step. Unless your arm can allow VTA on the fly, it really is best to get it as close as possible and leave it. I imagine certain diamond cuts are more or less sensitive to this adjustment.

As far as vinyl heating up to the point of destruction? I'm not sure I buy into that. I'll have to conduct an experiment with my laser thermometer. Play the same track over and over checking its temp each time.


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[bbbiker800]

not to me its not or every other 2m black owner who will tell you their cartridge sounds much better tail down.

Do you think that might apply to a 2M Bronze too ? (same body but different stylus)

I had a 2mm spacer added when I brought the Rega RP3 so I have no experience of it without the 2mm to 'help' the VTA - at the time forum people were advocating 3mm or even 4mm.

regards, richard

[karma67]

i would say so,i would aim as a starting point to get the underside level with the record surface.

[AlasdairB]

Some people swear they can hear the effects of changing VTA. They generally seem to find 'tail up' gives brighter treble and lighter bass and 'tail down' tames the treble and gives heavier bass. The trouble is that many good cartridges have VTA that is way out (30 degrees or more) but still sound good - so how on earth can changing VTA by one or two degrees be important? The same effects are also reported with spherical styli such as the Denon DL103 - but changing stylus rake angle (SRA) cannot possibly have any effect on a spherical stylus, so it is hard to see how SRA is the issue either. (SRA can only matter with a line contact stylus - but for these correct azimuth is usually much more critical.)

So what's the answer? Most people who are concerned about VTF adjustment use arms with underslung counterweights and in these raising the arm pivot reduces tracking weight (VTF) and lowering it increases VTF and a thick vinyl record will increase VTF slightly and thin vinyl will reduce it slightly. If you try increasing or reducing VTF, you will find that this has exactly the same sonic effects as people usually claim for adjusting VTA - high VTF gives more bass and subdued treble and vice versa. Roy Gandy's Rega arms all have concentric counterweights, so raising and lowering the pivot on these has no effect on VTF. That's why people who have arms with underslung counterweights swear that VTA is important but Roy Gandy swears that it is not. QED.

Therefore the answer is to set your arm level, or slightly out of level if you prefer - it's not important. What is important is that you then adjust the VTF carefully until you get the sound how you like it.

(When Esco fitted a Paratrace stylus to my Denon DL103 they recommended 1.8-2.0 VTF and, sure enough, it tracked perfectly at that - but it was a little too bright for my taste. I found it needed about 2.4g to reduce the treble, bring up the bass and make it sound 'just right' to my ears.)

[montesquieu]

Set it and forget it.

+1

[karma67]

(When Esco fitted a Paratrace stylus to my Denon DL103 they recommended 1.8-2.0 VTF and, sure enough, it tracked perfectly at that - but it was a little too bright for my taste. I found it needed about 2.4g to reduce the treble, bring up the bass and make it sound 'just right' to my ears.)

or you could have lowered the tonearm at the back and reduced vtf ,there is more than 1 way to skin a cat :)

[Barry]

There is much geometry going on with adjusting a record needle. The idea of adjusting VTA is to get the diamond tip to set at the correct angle in the groove (SRA) . I see in magazines and on other analog websites they use USB microscopes. But a good magnifying glass is all I need. Different manufacturers will sometimes list the correct angle. And if they don't, 92 degrees is a good average angle. Leaning slightly forward.

Of course adjusting the VTF will also change this angle. But that changes the pressure on the suspension. When a cartridge is fairly new, it's good to keep the tracking force at medium, or more. As the suspension starts to break in over time, you can reduce the tracking force to put less pressure on it, and allow the cantilever to keep a healthy angle. I.e. Keeping the coils centered in the magnetic field. Keeping the bottom of a box type cartridge level with the record is a great place to start, but it's only a starting point. And of course record thickness can affect the SRA, but we don't want to undo all of the adjusting we did for the suspension, so adjusting the VTA can fix the SRA back to 92 degrees. And once you've got 92 degrees, it's still worth adjusting by ear. As the truth is, even on expensive cartridges if you look really close, you can see that diamonds are not always perfectly attached to the cantilever. So listening is always the last step. Unless your arm can allow VTA on the fly, it really is best to get it as close as possible and leave it. I imagine certain diamond cuts are more or less sensitive to this adjustment.


Excellent post Russell!

Also being fastidious about SRA is only important with line contact stylii whose profile more closely approaches that of the cutter.

[alphaGT]

Excellent post Russell!

Also being fastidious about SRA is only important with line contact stylii whose profile more closely approaches that of the cutter.

I don’t know that the SRA is ONLY important to Line Contact, my Elliptical stylus on my Sumiko can produce audible differences with SRA adjustments. But I will agree that it is CRITICAL with a Line Contact, trying to keep as much of the long side in the groove. As you said, mimicking the cutter. We must realize that reading record grooves is tedious business, with groove features measured in micro and nanometers. Sure a blunt diamond can ride on the walls at their tops and get much music, but so much detail is there for the diamond that can reach deep and maintain constant contact with the smallest features of the groove. I find that my very oldest records after a thorough washing and then playing them on a nicer cartridge than they’ve ever known, and the details are still there! Not worn off after all these years and many plays, the finer needle profile is reaching new information deeper than any of my old needles could reach.

A fine cartridge of great cost, demands the very best setup possible. To make it sound good, and to make it last. Cranking up the tracking force to try and adjust the SRA can wear the suspension on the cantilever down prematurely.

But this is just me, I like taking the most care to setup a cartridge. I mounted my first one when I was 13, and have learned much about the physics since then. I make my own templates from card stock, I use micrometers to measure azimuth and pitch. And I’ve got a few nice magnifiers to see with. I just like doing it. I like the feeling of knowing I’ve done my best to get the perfect setup. Something I take pride in.

But, if your tonearm has no adjustments, and you only paid a few hundred on a cartridge. Then squaring the cartridge body may be all you can do? And you won’t hear much difference from higher tuning on a cart of that level anyway. So if you like to tweak your record player, you need to invest in one that allows you to tweak. I would love to own a Triplanar or a Graham tonearm! I find all the many adjustments sexy. And the VPI arm I’ve got is not bad on adjustability, It’s a nice arm, and I am pleased with it. Perhaps I should attempt to write a book on the subject? I’ve read plenty from other experts who have written their methods, or video taped them, who was it selling videos? Robert Harley? And I think Mike Fremer also has some tutorials on the subject. But while they show a good setup, they leave much unexplained. As to why you would choose a certain template, when to tweak and when to listen, it is an endlessly deep subject that most gloss over, figuring that most don’t want to get that deep. They just want their cartridge set up. They think to understand is not necessary. But for people like me, I want to understand every aspect, and know what compromises we are choosing to make. Perhaps I will set down and attempt to get all of these things organized in my mind, take some useful photos, and write a book that will make me rich and famous! Or at least bring in enough money for a new tonearm?


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[Svend N]

Do you think that might apply to a 2M Bronze too ? (same body but different stylus)

I had a 2mm spacer added when I brought the Rega RP3 so I have no experience of it without the 2mm to 'help' the VTA - at the time forum people were advocating 3mm or even 4mm.

regards, richard


Richard, if you're still attending this thread, I'd be interested in hearing how you make out with any experiments with this cartridge on a Rega arm. I have the Bronze on an RB300, mounted on a newly-refurbed Heybrook TT2. At present I have no way of easily raising or lowering the arm (spacers needed). With the stock felt mat, the arm is more or less level (hard to judge with the tapered Rega arm), and base of cart is parallel to the record. I did do a quick swap of the mat, going from the thin felt to a much thicker cork one, putting the arm a bit tail down, and I didn't like what I heard. Sound lost it's fullness, half the bass seemed to disappear, and soundstage shrank. How much of what I heard was from the different mat materials (cork vs. felt) or from the VTA change I can't say -- changing two variables at once is never a good idea.

Other than this I haven't tried anything else. But when I do I'd be happy to share my experience with you. I may buy one of the simple VTA adjusters that are out there -- the Michell and Isokinetik ones look good, and are reasonably priced.

If you've done any adjusting with your Bronze, I'd be curious as to how that worked out.

Thanks and regards,
Svend

[karma67]

dont worry to much about getting the arm level,its the bottom of the cartridge that should be level as a starting point with the 2m series.

[Svend N]

dont worry to much about getting the arm level,its the bottom of the cartridge that should be level as a starting point with the 2m series.

Got it! Thanks Jamie. Looks like I'm OK then as long as the thin felt mat is on there. I'd like to try a different mat at some point, so in the absence of an easy VTA adjuster, I'll have to make sure to buy a very thin one. I seem to recall SRM-Tech having a silicone (or similar material) mat that was only 1mm thick. That should serve well. Will post back if I try it.

Best,
Svend