View Full Version : what is the secret?
the_doc735
28-08-2017, 18:22
what is the secret?
what makes amps like: art audio, jadis, ayon, audio research, McIntosh, E.A.R., so expensive? (e.g. £5000 - £19000!)....
I mean just like a £1000 amp, they share common components like: valves, transformers, PCB, point to point wiring, caps., resistors, diodes, sockets, a case!
And, how do you get to hear these 'beauties' without buying them?
:scratch:
walpurgis
28-08-2017, 18:27
For a start, bespoke heavyweight transformers in small batches are very expensive.
With the names you mention, I'd suggest the sound quality may speak for itself.
quality parts and labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. better designs too often. level of fit n finish....all costs dough, plus the addons from middlemen
Badge snobbery?
Trust me, with most high-end gear, the badge itself has considerable 'intrinsic value'! ;)
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2017, 18:54
Risking being patronising... I'll have a go.
Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things IMHO.
When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!
Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive and obviously can only be done by hand. Not that it makes any difference to the sound.
Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc as well of course.
A lot more of it is down to you bleedin' audiophiles!!! Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever:D Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand" ;)
Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever:D
Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand" ;)
Yup, which is pretty much what I've said above. I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!
:exactly:
Marco.
Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.
Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'! ;)
The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
28-08-2017, 19:34
Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.
Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'! ;)
The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.
Marco.
Yes indeedy. I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on :scratch:
It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself....
the_doc735
28-08-2017, 23:11
For a start, bespoke heavyweight transformers in small batches are very expensive.
With the names you mention, I'd suggest the sound quality may speak for itself.
quality parts and labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. better designs too often. level of fit n finish....all costs dough, plus the addons from middlemen
Badge snobbery?
Trust me, with most high-end gear, the badge itself has considerable 'intrinsic value'! ;)
Marco.
Risking being patronising... I'll have a go.
Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things IMHO.
When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!
Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive and obviously can only be done by hand. Not that it makes any difference to the sound.
Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc as well of course.
A lot more of it is down to you bleedin' audiophiles!!! Snob value, having to have the "component of the year", perceiving certain brands to be worth THAT kind of money just 'cos it's that particular brand, even though it may be not as good in design, build or sound as a relatively unknown brand. If myself or Firebottle announced that we've brought out an answer to Krell's (Conrad Johnson, Kondo whatever) top of the range £35,000 mono blocks and at "only" £7000 would anyone, anywhere be even the slightest bit interested? Nope. Why? 'cos it doesn't say KRELL on the front and you can't impress your audiophile mates by saying "I've just bought the new Krell GTI Super Turbo MkIII" or whatever:D Hence they can get away with charging that much... it's "what the market will stand" ;)
Yup, which is pretty much what I've said above. I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!
:exactly:
Marco.
Also, folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers.
Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'! ;)
The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst simply increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.
Marco.
Yes indeedy. I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on :scratch:
It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself....
well, john wood & guy sergeant amps have "bespoke heavyweight transformers" and their amps don't cost an arm and a leg and produce a high quality sound.
" labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. level of fit n finish, plus the 'addons from all the middlemen" ....all costs dough!
Yes, but not necessarily higher quality parts or 'better designs' than those found in J.WOOD & Guy Sergeant amps.
Badge snobbery ~ as I thought too!
"Supply and demand, wages, dealers margin, distributors margin, cost of guarantee returns and R&D expenses are the main things" ~ as I thought too!
"Casework gets really expensive when we're talking 1/2" thick machined front panels etc and real hardwood end panels etc. Point to point wiring is VERY labour intensive! When we're talking big name companies (in high end hi fi this could mean employing as few as 15 ish people. When I was at Musical Fidelity they had I reckon about 50-80 employees and they are pretty big in this country) with international and national distributors and loads of dealers etc (glossy adds in the mags 'n all that) then if an amp costs the maker £700 in parts and labour before it leaves the factory then it will be more like £5000+ when you buy it from a dealer. About half goes to the dealer!" ~ yes I tend to agree!
The Krell example is a good case in point actually!
"I gave up being influenced by 'badges' and buying hi-fi that way years ago. Nowadays, it's all about maximising SPPV!" ~ yes I thought badge snobbery would be a big factor too.
"folks worry too much about resale value, which is why they buy well-known brands, as it's easy to sell on, rather than (often better sounding and less expensive) equipment from smaller, specialist manufacturers. Well, if the gear is really good in the first place, then get good use out of it and enjoy it, that way you won't have to worry too much about its 'resale value'! The fact is, system satisfaction kills box-swapping.... Seriously though, there are way too many box-swappers around for their own good, who unlike Jerry, are kidding themselves on that they're enjoying the process, when in reality they're simply chasing their tails, whilst simply increasing disillusionment and draining their bank balance.".
Sounds sensible, I have fallen prey to the swapping thing too, unfortunately for the wallet! The most I ever paid was for the Sophia's and I.M.O. weren't all that good compared to much cheaper amps!!
"I've never really "got" this box swapping thing myself but it is disturbingly common it seems... I've known people who never have any single item of equipment for more than 6 months... and often an item will last more like 3 weeks before being moved on! Even when an item is "the best I've ever heard. This is a keeper"... it will soon be moved on" :scratch:
"It's the curse of small companies like myself as of course Mr box swapper only ever buys big brand name makes, which he knows he will have no trouble getting back what he paid for it and it will sell itself..."
Really? ...well I have seen big brand names on ebay for sale, for months & months & months on end, some over a year and they still remain unsold to this day!! Things over £2000-3000 as a general rule.
walpurgis
28-08-2017, 23:22
So many contrary positions. So little time.............. ;)
narabdela
29-08-2017, 00:07
So many contrary positions. So little time.............. ;)
Indeed. I gave up the will to live halfway through post #9. :bog:
We are a niche market and becoming more so. To protect profitability, margins have to grow as sales decline. This forces up the price.
This is simplistic but the price of new, quality hifi has risen dramatically in most, but not all cases.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
So many contrary positions. So little time.............. ;)
Really? I see more evidence of consensus than contrary positions...
I think most of us agree that the best equipment from small, specialist companies has the potential to sound better than some significantly more expensive 'big-name' commercial equipment, that badge snobbery exists, and you pay for it, and that out of control box-swapping is both bad for your head and bank balance!
Not too many contrary positions there, I wouldn't have thought? :)
Marco.
We are a niche market and becoming more so. To protect profitability, margins have to grow as sales decline. This forces up the price.
This is simplistic but the price of new, quality hifi has risen dramatically in most, but not all cases.
...which is why going the quality vintage route makes sense, as that's often where the highest SPPV lies. You know that full well yourself. I also agree with your first sentence, but that doesn't mean we just have to sit back and 'suck it up'! ;)
Marco.
The Black Adder
29-08-2017, 08:00
It gets expensive because generally really expensive equipment becomes more bespoke in design and becomes more artistic and bespoke... but the innards or the internal design are probably nothing new... parts are probably re-cased to make them look pretty and bespoke.
People who can afford such things buy them because they can, some appreciate it and some do not and buy because they want to have something different to someone else... social climbing leverage?
This world is now firmly based on snobbery and it's getting worse. I'm old skool... I would question any bit of kit over a certain price. :) - or is that just the old chestnut called 'common sense'? :)
Indeed... With commercially produced 'big name' gear, you might own a £10k or £20k amplifier, for example, but only in terms of the price you've paid. You certainly haven't ended up with £10k or £20k's worth of sound quality [or anything like it], that's for sure! ;)
Marco.
well, john wood & guy sergeant amps have "bespoke heavyweight transformers" and their amps don't cost an arm and a leg and produce a high quality sound.
" labour, usually in this country eaning higher wages. level of fit n finish, plus the 'addons from all the middlemen" ....all costs dough!
Yes, but not necessarily higher quality parts or 'better designs' than those found in J.WOOD & Guy Sergeant amps.
You seem to feel J Wood and Guy Sergeant amps are the pinnacle of amp development and are both big companies;)
jollyfix
29-08-2017, 08:21
Indeed... With commercially produced 'big name' gear, you might own a £10k or £20k amplifier, for example, but only in terms of the price you've paid. You certainly haven't ended up with £10k or £20k's worth of sound quality [or anything like it], that's for sure! ;)
Marco.
Spot on Marco.
There are four types of expensive amps: some are just expensive because of the badge & having to recoup huge marketing budgets, others to recoup huge R&D, tooling etc. budgets (I bet Devialet were expensive to develop), some are expensive because of super-expensive casework and transformers, others are expensive to keep demand down. It's that simple really, no secrets. :)
The Black Adder
29-08-2017, 08:59
There are four types of expensive amps: some are just expensive because of the badge & having to recoup huge marketing budgets, others to recoup huge R&D, tooling etc. budgets (I bet Devialet were expensive to develop), some are expensive because of super-expensive casework and transformers, others are expensive to keep demand down. It's that simple really, no secrets. :)
... I wouldn't be so sure of that. Any company would cut costs where they can regardless of how 'exclusive' they are.
If they can get away with it (which let's be honest they are in the best position to do so) they will because nobody would risk cracking hermetically sealed £10k, £20+ lids of kit to find out.
There are four types of expensive amps: some are just expensive because of the badge & having to recoup huge marketing budgets, others to recoup huge R&D, tooling etc. budgets (I bet Devialet were expensive to develop), some are expensive because of super-expensive casework and transformers, others are expensive to keep demand down. It's that simple really, no secrets. :)
Yes, but the harder part is identifying which from which! ;)
The "super-expensive transformers", for example (especially in a valve amp), would interest me rather more than any "super-expensive casework", as for me hi-fi equipment is simply a functional tool, to perform a particular task, not an ornament to be admired.
Marco.
... I wouldn't be so sure of that. Any company would cut costs where they can regardless of how 'exclusive' they are.
If they can get away with it (which let's be honest they are in the best position to do so) they will because nobody would risk cracking hermetically sealed £10k, £20+ lids of kit to find out.
Ah yes, I agree & forgot to mention the 5th one. I wouldn't say any company though, but most big companies, yes.
(I bet Devialet were expensive to develop)
I've seen this suggested a few times now and I still can't work out why. It doesn't use any new or ground-breaking technology, it might have a fancy case but it's just solid state amp and a DAC in the same box. Advertising campaigns are expensive but I don't count that in with 'development'.
The reality is that sound reproduction is age old tech, the idea that these companies have huge labs full of white coated scientists and technicians beavering away making new discoveries and advancing the frontiers is absurd, but I suppose people want to believe so they do.
A sort-of contrary position; products from one-man cottage manufacturers are vulnerable to the one man in question being out of action for whatever reason; ISTR a case like that being discussed here a while back. A big company may be better if a product goes wrong.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 12:07
Yes, but the harder part is identifying which from which! ;)
The "super-expensive transformers", for example (especially in a valve amp), would interest me rather more than any "super-expensive casework", as for me hi-fi equipment is simply a functional tool, to perform a particular task, not an ornament to be admired.
Marco.
Would that more people took this attitude.... Unfortunately many people (most maybe?) do seem to buy with their eyes and many companies have well understood this for years. I repaired a pair of cheap (£500) monoblocks a few weeks ago, made by a Wembley based company.... Externally we're talking a pair of cylindrical cases which have the appearance of carved out of solid... and indeed most of the money has gone on the casework! Remove the innards and it's OMG! Worse than a 3020 in build quality and component quality! Everything was as cheap as it's possible to get and the transformers tiny...
I have mooted the idea a few times of building gear in cheapo casework to allow the money to be spent on the innards where it matters... the consensus view of this seems to be "oh no if I'm paying £600 for a phono stage I want it to look the part..." OK well it's just gone up to £800 for the same thing in a nice box then.... That's how it works. People are more concerned with the appearance of quality rather than actual quality so it seems.
I've told this tale a few times but it is pertinent to this so here it is again... When I finished the design of the Alchemist Axiom integrated amp and first samples in the intended pretty bling casework were built up we had a visit from the companies biggest customer by far... a far east importer and distributor from IIRC Singapore (complete with two menservants who followed him around and lit his cigarettes for him etc!!:eek:). I was eager to demonstrate "my baby" but I was brusquely told by him that he had no interest in what it sounded like!! He then went into detailed talks with the casework designer demanding even more bling, gold plated knobs etc etc... which he got of course and smaller smoothing caps were fitted to the amps to help pay for this... THAT's how it works in practice:steam:
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 12:08
I've seen this suggested a few times now and I still can't work out why. It doesn't use any new or ground-breaking technology, it might have a fancy case but it's just solid state amp and a DAC in the same box. Advertising campaigns are expensive but I don't count that in with 'development'.
The reality is that sound reproduction is age old tech, the idea that these companies have huge labs full of white coated scientists and technicians beavering away making new discoveries and advancing the frontiers is absurd, but I suppose people want to believe so they do.
I disagree.
most folk want both, but only some want to pay for it new. most would rather get 2nd hand, which is fair enough except that if not enough buy new then price of secondhand gear goes up, and therefor the new stuff will likely follow. Old market term of what the market will stand. Thats why many things here are dearer than the USA, and say India is much cheaper for same thing...no point in McDonalds charging a UK price for a ready meal in India as no-one will afford it
I disagree.
It's all very well you disagreeing but if you don't explain why you disagree then there wasn't much point in disagreeing.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 12:45
It's all very well you disagreeing but if you don't explain why you disagree then there wasn't much point in disagreeing.
Exactly the answer I expected:D I disagree that disagreeing requires an explanation of the disagreement for the disagreement to be relevant!:ner:
In other words I can't be arsed and I don't want to turn this into a discussion on Devialet;)
Exactly the answer I expected:D I disagree that disagreeing requires an explanation of the disagreement for the disagreement to be relevant!:ner:
In other words I can't be arsed and I don't want to turn this into a discussion on Devialet;)
I disagree.... I think?
Neil McCauley
29-08-2017, 12:48
A sort-of contrary position; products from one-man cottage manufacturers are vulnerable to the one man in question being out of action for whatever reason; ISTR a case like that being discussed here a while back. A big company may be better if a product goes wrong.
You make, in my opinion, a good point and one that perhaps warrants greater acknowledgement. Neil
Exactly the answer I expected:D I disagree that disagreeing requires an explanation of the disagreement for the disagreement to be relevant!:ner:
In other words I can't be arsed and I don't want to turn this into a discussion on Devialet;)
I knew you would say you cannot be arsed but that does then beg the question of why you replied to begin with. Clearly you can be arsed but only to a certain extent, which is, frankly, insufficient. In future if I were you I'd take a more dialectical approach to disagreeing, that is, either disagree properly or don't bother at all. :D
In all seriousness though, it isn't really necessary for you to give a one hour lecture on electronics. I'm happy to take your knowledge as read. So if you are saying in your professional opinion the Devaliet's amplifier did require some considerable research to develop then I will bow to you superior knowledge (although that does contradict opinions I have read elsewhere).
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 13:00
I knew you would say you cannot be arsed but that does then beg the question of why you replied to begin with. Clearly you can be arsed but only to a certain extent, which is, frankly, insufficient. In future if I were you I'd take a more dialectical approach to disagreeing, that is, either disagree properly or don't bother at all. :D
In all seriousness though, it isn't really necessary for you to give a one hour lecture on electronics. I'm happy to take your knowledge as read. So if you are saying in your professional opinion the Devaliet's amplifier did require some considerable research to develop then I will bow to you superior knowledge (although that does contradict opinions I have read elsewhere).
Hence just "I disagree" :eyebrows: If anyone is that bothered I'm sure there is plenty of literature explaining the operating principles etc without me having to waste my time précising it ;)
RothwellAudio
29-08-2017, 13:13
I didn't have a lot of time to waste researching the Devialet's technology but his review suggests there's a lot of technology employed:
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/devialet-200400-integrated-amplifierstreaming-dac/
The only thing I spotted which hints at new technology is the "Speaker Active Matching" feature. Not sure what it is.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 13:14
A sort-of contrary position; products from one-man cottage manufacturers are vulnerable to the one man in question being out of action for whatever reason; ISTR a case like that being discussed here a while back. A big company may be better if a product goes wrong.
It's a possibility yes... but then big companies go bust etc. Who would have thought BHS or Woolworths would disappear like that!? Plenty of well known hi-fi brands have disappeared virtually over night as well. Look at once huge players in the hi fi market like Leak and Goodmans... gone... never mind all the small to medium ones (which were a lot more than a one man band cottage industry) such as Myst, RAM, Tangent, Lecson, Lentek, Nytech, Heybrook etc etc!! On the other hand, if dealing with a one man band or very small company one can usually get to speak to the designer in person, and can often have things modified to any special requirements etc. You're also not likely to get a daft receptionist when ringing up who is only too keen to tell you "the computer says no..." or "there's a £350 standard charge to repair that even if all we find is a dead fuse..."
It's my possibly narrow view that the electronics rule-book was done and dusted decades ago and recent technology has made it possible to realise more for less money.
Thing is with audio gear, especially 'domestic' HiFi, the visuals are as or more important than what's inside and quite often, these visuals cost a small fortune to machine up in the tiny quantities that realistically sell to this market. I also have it from one particular horses mouth that his valve-based goodies are priced for the far east, as the more expensive and good looking it is, the more cachet it acquires. Another well known 'horses mouth' once said in an interview that he made 'male jewellery' to sell at bespoke prices and he also hiked the prices up long before the UK stirling fell to its current level. It's almost as if some far eastern audiophools would want the price tags attached to show how expensive the item is. On a Facebook page I've bookmarked, a speaker range designed deliberately and carefully to be used with grilles on, is pictured time after time with grilles off so as to show the butch drivers and exquisite front baffle veneers and badging..
If you look around though, there are still one or two small firms selling 'direct' and at what I perceive to be very fair prices - phono stages made in the town I live in (I don't know them personally) plus the gear I help to make up for example. No real foo involved in the designs if used as recommended and in later years, they *should* be readily serviceable if the company no longer exists.
RothwellAudio
29-08-2017, 13:54
It's my possibly narrow view that the electronics rule-book was done and dusted decades ago and recent technology has made it possible to realise more for less money.
Yes, there's some truth in that, but there's still room for some refinement. I think that the "electronics rule book" power amp (the classic Lin design, not to be confused with Linn) can be implemented much better than it usually is.
Having said that, the circuit refinements don't really add anything to the cost.
Haselsh1
29-08-2017, 14:06
It's my possibly narrow view that the electronics rule-book was done and dusted decades ago and recent technology has made it possible to realise more for less money.
This is a great statement because if brand new 'ground breaking' advances were being made in audio where are the advances and where are the patents...? Take a look at the journals and the internet. It would appear that the only people making these claims are the manufacturers with very little factual backing.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 14:08
Yes, there's some truth in that, but there's still room for some refinement. I think that the "electronics rule book" power amp (the classic Lin design, not to be confused with Linn) can be implemented much better than it usually is.
Having said that, the circuit refinements don't really add anything to the cost.
Yeah I reckon there's loads to be done yet;)
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 14:18
This is a great statement because if brand new 'ground breaking' advances were being made in audio where are the advances and where are the patents...? Take a look at the journals and the internet. It would appear that the only people making these claims are the manufacturers with very little factual backing.
They are not worth taking out as hi fi is such a niche activity. I reckon there are a possible 3 patents in the new phono stage I'm working on but I won't be doing anything about it other than making it bloody difficult for anyone to reverse engineer it.... The Chinese are known for just ignoring patents anyway!
99.9% of people are more than happy with an Ipod or blue tooth boom box etc and the 0.1% with an interest in hi fi isn't enough to interest any major investors.
If I think to myself about how often I just get talking to someone in a pub etc and find they share interests with me then motorbikes... pretty often, guitars etc and playing them... pretty often... hi fi? maybe one in 5 years!
Haselsh1
29-08-2017, 14:45
If I think to myself about how often I just get talking to someone in a pub etc and find they share interests with me then motorbikes... pretty often, guitars etc and playing them... pretty often... hi fi? maybe one in 5 years!
Yep, unless they are old school friends then everyone is interested in music but not the equipment used to reproduce it. With lots of blokey friends you are correct of course, music, motorbikes and guitars, not always in that order. Strangely though, none of my friends ever discuss football. I wonder why...?
;)
I was eager to demonstrate "my baby" but I was brusquely told by him that he had no interest in what it sounded like!! He then went into detailed talks with the casework designer demanding even more bling, gold plated knobs etc etc... which he got of course and smaller smoothing caps were fitted to the amps to help pay for this... THAT's how it works in practice:steam:
That's absolutely shocking, but not entirely surprising. If I ever received conclusive proof that such a thing was happening today with another hi-fi manufacturer, I'd expose them for the charlatans that they are. And I'd go to town on them in a big way, too!!
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 15:04
That's absolutely shocking, but not entirely surprising. If I ever received conclusive proof that such a thing was happening today with another hi-fi manufacturer, I'd expose them for the charlatans that they are. And I'd go to town on them, too!!
Marco.
That's just the tip of the iceberg!! I could tell tales about another ex employer (Wembley based for a not too subtle clue) that would make your teeth curl!
It goes on all the time I assure you....
A sort-of contrary position; products from one-man cottage manufacturers are vulnerable to the one man in question being out of action for whatever reason...
See my post here on that subject: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?53482-Supporting-our-HiFi-cottage-industry&p=893306#post893306
Marco.
That's just the tip of the iceberg!! I could tell tales about another ex employer (Wembley based for a not too subtle clue) that would make your teeth curl!
It goes on all the time I assure you....
Well then, those guilty should be named and shamed, and their sham products exposed for what they are. I'd be happy to use AoS to facilitate it. All we're interested in here is supporting the genuine guys, who're in the business for the RIGHT reasons.
The rest deserve to have their deceit exposed, so that folks know *exactly* what's going on and can avoid buying their fake equipment.
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 15:11
Yep, unless they are old school friends then everyone is interested in music but not the equipment used to reproduce it. With lots of blokey friends you are correct of course, music, motorbikes and guitars, not always in that order. Strangely though, none of my friends ever discuss football. I wonder why...?
;)
Sport is one of those things I've never really "got" either.... Motorsport sure, all that high tech petrolheadery and the fact that the riders/drivers risk death every lap! other sports... nah.. not really... and football? I'll never understand the obsession, verging on worship, shown by so many of my fellow males of the species (and a lot of women these days).. 22 blokes slowly going around a field trying to get a ball in a net for no good reason is about all I see:D
anthonyTD
29-08-2017, 15:20
:)
Sport is one of those things I've never really "got" either.... Motorsport sure, all that high tech petrolheadery and the fact that the riders/drivers risk death every lap! other sports... nah.. not really... and football? I'll never understand the obsession, verging on worship, shown by so many of my fellow males of the species (and a lot of women these days).. 22 blokes slowly going around a field trying to get a ball in a net for no good reason is about all I see:D
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:13
You seem to feel J Wood and Guy Sergeant amps are the pinnacle of amp development and are both big companies;)
I don't have enough experience to know what the pinnacle is but I feel that wood and sergeant amps sound good to my ears, relatively speaking not all that expensive £1000+; not 10k! And I do not feel that these are big companies compared to the likes of sony, pioneer, denon. It's all relative, and these are relatively small companies in the great scheme of things i.e. no branches, no stores, no employees - one man bands! That is small in my book.
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:16
... I wouldn't be so sure of that. Any company would cut costs where they can regardless of how 'exclusive' they are.
If they can get away with it (which let's be honest they are in the best position to do so) they will because nobody would risk cracking hermetically sealed £10k, £20+ lids of kit to find out.
I WOULD!
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:18
Yes, but the harder part is identifying which from which! ;)
The "super-expensive transformers", for example (especially in a valve amp), would interest me rather more than any "super-expensive casework", as for me hi-fi equipment is simply a functional tool, to perform a particular task, not an ornament to be admired.
Marco.
Me too!
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:21
I've seen this suggested a few times now and I still can't work out why. It doesn't use any new or ground-breaking technology, it might have a fancy case but it's just solid state amp and a DAC in the same box. Advertising campaigns are expensive but I don't count that in with 'development'.
The reality is that sound reproduction is age old tech, the idea that these companies have huge labs full of white coated scientists and technicians beavering away making new discoveries and advancing the frontiers is absurd, but I suppose people want to believe so they do.
Ar yes! - good point and well said, I believe in this thinking too (in most cases).
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:32
Would that more people took this attitude.... Unfortunately many people (most maybe?) do seem to buy with their eyes and many companies have well understood this for years. I repaired a pair of cheap (£500) monoblocks a few weeks ago, made by a Wembley based company.... Externally we're talking a pair of cylindrical cases which have the appearance of carved out of solid... and indeed most of the money has gone on the casework! Remove the innards and it's OMG! Worse than a 3020 in build quality and component quality! Everything was as cheap as it's possible to get and the transformers tiny...
I have mooted the idea a few times of building gear in cheapo casework to allow the money to be spent on the innards where it matters... the consensus view of this seems to be "oh no if I'm paying £600 for a phono stage I want it to look the part..." OK well it's just gone up to £800 for the same thing in a nice box then.... That's how it works. People are more concerned with the appearance of quality rather than actual quality so it seems.
I've told this tale a few times but it is pertinent to this so here it is again... When I finished the design of the Alchemist Axiom integrated amp and first samples in the intended pretty bling casework were built up we had a visit from the companies biggest customer by far... a far east importer and distributor from IIRC Singapore (complete with two menservants who followed him around and lit his cigarettes for him etc!!:eek:). I was eager to demonstrate "my baby" but I was brusquely told by him that he had no interest in what it sounded like!! He then went into detailed talks with the casework designer demanding even more bling, gold plated knobs etc etc... which he got of course and smaller smoothing caps were fitted to the amps to help pay for this... THAT's how it works in practice:steam:
I really like this thinking and prefer money to be spent on the sound, not the fancy case! Interesting in a review of the sergeant 2A3 amp, the reviewer said: "this amp is worth a lot more than a mere £2000 and if he put the innards in a fancy chrome case with gold knobs he could push it out for £6000"!!
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:42
It's a possibility yes... but then big companies go bust etc. Who would have thought BHS or Woolworths would disappear like that!? Plenty of well known hi-fi brands have disappeared virtually over night as well. Look at once huge players in the hi fi market like Leak and Goodmans... gone... never mind all the small to medium ones (which were a lot more than a one man band cottage industry) such as Myst, RAM, Tangent, Lecson, Lentek, Nytech, Heybrook etc etc!! On the other hand, if dealing with a one man band or very small company one can usually get to speak to the designer in person, and can often have things modified to any special requirements etc. You're also not likely to get a daft receptionist when ringing up who is only too keen to tell you "the computer says no..." or "there's a £350 standard charge to repair that even if all we find is a dead fuse..."
oh yes - very good point in case, this!
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:53
Well then, those guilty should be named and shamed, and their sham products exposed for what they are. I'd be happy to use AoS to facilitate it. All we're interested in here is supporting the genuine guys, who're in the business for the RIGHT reasons.
The rest deserve to have their deceit exposed, so that folks know *exactly* what's going on and can avoid buying their fake equipment.
Marco.
well said!
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 17:55
Sport is one of those things I've never really "got" either.... Motorsport sure, all that high tech petrolheadery and the fact that the riders/drivers risk death every lap! other sports... nah.. not really... and football? I'll never understand the obsession, verging on worship, shown by so many of my fellow males of the species (and a lot of women these days).. 22 blokes slowly going around a field trying to get a ball in a net for no good reason is about all I see:D
:lol::lol::lol:
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 18:07
Well then, those guilty should be named and shamed, and their sham products exposed for what they are. I'd be happy to use AoS to facilitate it. All we're interested in here is supporting the genuine guys, who're in the business for the RIGHT reasons.
The rest deserve to have their deceit exposed, so that folks know *exactly* what's going on and can avoid buying their fake equipment.
Marco.
I've mentioned various snippets of this over the years both here and on pfm and was amazed to find that the general response was kind of "and?" Even when it was a case of them literally selling fake equipment! There were amps sold which had different innards to that suggested by the model number on the front panel... very different in fact. They had orders for a popular model but no PCB's, so as they were interchangeable to save on metal work costs, they just took boards from a mosfet amp and fitted them in a case saying it was a class A bipolar transistor amp and turned up the bias till it got hot enough for no one to question it! These were completely different topologies and sounded very different.
oh yes - very good point in case, this!
The problem you have too, is our innate propensity for believing that 'newest = best', thus automatically better than any 'obsolete old 'tat'... It's often hard to shake off that mindset. I mean, significant progress, in *every* aspect of audio design, must've been made since the 1950s - surely??
You see that sort of marketing all the time from hi-fi companies, and that such and such has been "designed using the latest new technology", as if acting as some form of automatic guarantee that you can't get any better, which in my experience is rarely true. More often than not, the opposite applies!
Said "latest [shiny] new technology" often has key aspects of its design, which compromise performance, in the pursuit of low-cost and convenience. THAT is the unfortunate reality.
Witness, for example, the plethora of diddy-sized squawk boxes on the market, posing as loudspeakers, crammed full of "latest technology" drive units and cabinets, none of which successfully override the laws of physics [i.e. ultimately size matters]!
Not to mention the plethora of commercially produced amplifiers, built using "the latest new technology", but with piss-poor SMPS units at the heart of their design, ultimately limiting their sonic potential. That's not to say, however, that you can't get top-quality SMPS units, designed to exploit the full potential of said technology, simply that it rarely features in mass-produced commercial equipment.
That's usually why, after having attended a hi-fi show and been rather disappointed listening to a variety of equipment demonstrating the so-called 'wonders of new technology', I sit down, spin a favourite LP, and revel in the beautiful sounding music emitting from my 'obsolete old tat'... ;)
Marco.
I've mentioned various snippets of this over the years both here and on pfm and was amazed to find that the general response was kind of "and?" Even when it was a case of them literally selling fake equipment! There were amps sold which had different innards to that suggested by the model number on the front panel... very different in fact. They had orders for a popular model but no PCB's, so as they were interchangeable to save on metal work costs, they just took boards from a mosfet amp and fitted them in a case saying it was a class A bipolar transistor amp and turned up the bias till it got hot enough for no one to question it! These were completely different topologies and sounded very different.
Shocking stuff, Jez. Perhaps not enough people care? It's certainly a sad indictment on what is supposed to be a hobby for enthusiasts...
Marco.
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 18:33
The problem you have too, is our innate propensity for believing that 'newest = best', thus automatically better than any 'obsolete old 'tat'... It's often hard to shake off that mindset. I mean, significant progress, in *every* aspect of audio design, must've been made since the 1950s - surely??
You see that sort of marketing all the time from hi-fi companies, and that such and such has been "designed using the latest new technology", as if acting as some form of automatic guarantee that you can't get any better, which in my experience is rarely true. More often than not, the opposite applies.
Said "latest [shiny] new technology" often has key aspects of its design, which compromise performance, in the pursuit of low-cost and convenience. THAT is the unfortunate reality.
Witness, for example, the plethora of diddy-sized squawk boxes on the market, posing as loudspeakers, crammed full of "latest technology" drive units and cabinets, none of which successfully override the laws of physics [i.e. ultimately size matters]!
Not to mention the plethora of commercially produced amplifiers, built using "the latest new technology", but with piss-poor SMPS units at the heart of their design, ultimately limiting their sonic potential. That's not to say, however, that you can't get top-quality SMPS units, designed to exploit the full potential of said technology, simply that it rarely features in mass-produced commercial equipment.
That's usually why, after having attended a hi-fi show and been rather disappointed listening to a variety of equipment demonstrating the so-called 'wonders of new technology', I sit down, spin a favourite LP, and revel in the beautiful sounding music emitting from my 'obsolete old tat'... ;)
Marco.
:scratch: But I thought the laws of physics didn't apply to subjectivists?:ner:
Ha - they do when applied to loudspeakers! :D
I like to shift some air.......
Marco.
Ha - they do when applied to loudspeakers! :D
I like to shift some air.......
Marco.
Well as the late Gilbert Briggs (of Wharfedale loudspeaker fame) once said: "A good big'un will always better a little'un" (or words to that effect, and spoken with a Yorkshire accent).
Arkless Electronics
29-08-2017, 18:59
Ha - they do when applied to loudspeakers! :D
I like to shift some air.......
Marco.
"Few love to hear the sins they love to act" Shakespeare ;)
...yes I'd heard about your love of beanz...:D
Well as the late Gilbert Briggs (of Wharfedale loudspeaker fame) once said: "A good big'un will always better a little'un" (or words to that effect, and spoken with a Yorkshire accent).
Indeed, Barry, and furthermore I'm sure his good lady would've shared the same sentiments ;)
Marco.
"Few love to hear the sins they love to act" Shakespeare ;)
...yes I'd heard about your love of beanz...:D
Pericles, Prince of Tyre. Act 1 Scene 1.
"Few love to hear the sins they love to act" Shakespeare ;)
...yes I'd heard about your love of beanz...:D
:lolsign:
Life's no fun at all without a nice big 'phut'!
Marco.
Pieoftheday
29-08-2017, 19:20
Sport is one of those things I've never really "got" either.... Motorsport sure, all that high tech petrolheadery and the fact that the riders/drivers risk death every lap! other sports... nah.. not really... and football? I'll never understand the obsession, verging on worship, shown by so many of my fellow males of the species (and a lot of women these days).. 22 blokes slowly going around a field trying to get a ball in a net for no good reason is about all I see:D
All my friends/ work mates love footy rugby etc I just can't be arsed, bit bored of bike racing these days too though still love to ride em:)
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 19:20
those who like to pedal sham gear covered in glitter for maximum bucks rely on the customers ignorance of the subject! i.e. tell them anything, any old nonsense because they won't know the difference anyway, they'll just agree with what we tell them on the shop floor because they won't want to look stupid in front of other customers! :stalks:
I've mentioned various snippets of this over the years both here and on pfm and was amazed to find that the general response was kind of "and?" Even when it was a case of them literally selling fake equipment! There were amps sold which had different innards to that suggested by the model number on the front panel... very different in fact. They had orders for a popular model but no PCB's, so as they were interchangeable to save on metal work costs, they just took boards from a mosfet amp and fitted them in a case saying it was a class A bipolar transistor amp and turned up the bias till it got hot enough for no one to question it! These were completely different topologies and sounded very different.
Mmmm ... I think I might have bought one of those back in the 90s ... a MF A1 Final Edition, by any chance?
Sorry, probably best not to say :lol:
the_doc735
29-08-2017, 20:52
just to be awkward! you know what I'm going to say now! - right?
Well, there has been comments on here about over inflated prices due to fancy looking casing i.e. literally making them look a million dollars even if they probably aren't anything like that - right?
Well, OK ...how about the cheap Chinese stuff? Some of the Yaqin ranges etc have quite jazzy cases mimicking the likes of Ayon etc. Chrome, wood, aluminium, strange curves, unusual knobs and switches; "BUT!" - they're not anything like 10k +
...fancy cased amps = not always a sign of high cost! - right?
low production costs and production line quantities
Pieoftheday
30-08-2017, 18:20
So do any aos members that have spent 5/10grand on an amp think it was worth it?
So do any aos members that have spent 5/10grand on an amp think it was worth it?
Nope, but I do think spending £4k was well worth it... a big extravagant purchase I must admit, but it's been a few years owning it now.
A few years ago I bought second hand from Audio Images an ATC SCA2 and SPA2, to me outrageous in price at about £5.5k, but the new price was £11k.
I did it blind on the basis of my own experience of ATC, the company's reputation, and never seeing a bad review of either.
The purpose was as far as possible to remove amplification from being a limiting factor in my system and attempts at speaker design.
They are good, but a replacement upper cover plate costs nearly £400, and the remote has silly white lettering on a silver painted casing, a bit bling, but they do perform well.
the_doc735
30-08-2017, 21:17
the most expensive amps for me were the Sophia 91-01 300B; way more expensive than anything else, and the worst I have heard! I sent them back!! :steam:
So do any aos members that have spent 5/10grand on an amp think it was worth it?
Yeah, but then it replaced a DAC and a phono amp as well as a pre and power amp.
the_doc735
30-08-2017, 22:50
Yeah, but then it replaced a DAC and a phono amp as well as a pre and power amp.
what is "it"?
what is "it"?
Oh sorry, 'it' is a Devialet 250.
the_doc735
30-08-2017, 23:12
Oh sorry, 'it' is a Devialet 250.
;)
If by "amp" you mean pre + power, then yes. Bought used, my Mark Levinson ML-2 monoblocks and Levinson ML25 and ML28 phonostage and preamp came to ~ £5K. I run them into Quad 57s and they are a perfect match.
The only downside is the Levinson monoblocks run hot (they are pure Class A; doubling their power for each halving of load impedance), so in the summer I switch to another set of monoblock power amps (either a pair of Quad 510s or a pair of Tubehunter-modified and 'monoblocked' Quad 405s), both of which are virtually as good as the ML-2s but run much cooler.
Arkless Electronics
30-08-2017, 23:50
If by "amp" you mean pre + power, then yes. Bought used, my Mark Levinson ML-2 monoblocks and Levinson ML25 and ML28 phonostage and preamp came to ~ £5K. I run them into Quad 57s and they are a perfect match.
The only downside is the Levinson monoblocks run hot (they are pure Class A; doubling their power for each halving of load impedance), so in the summer I switch to another set of monoblock power amps (either a pair of Quad 510s or a pair of Tubehunter-modified and 'monoblocked' Quad 405s), both of which are virtually as good as the ML-2s but run much cooler.
In the winter a big class A amp is the greenest energy one can have... switch off the heating whilst the hi fi is on and it does two functions whilst switched on, heating and entertainment. Yes totally serious.
the_doc735
30-08-2017, 23:58
If by "amp" you mean pre + power, then yes. Bought used, my Mark Levinson ML-2 monoblocks and Levinson ML25 and ML28 phonostage and preamp came to ~ £5K. I run them into Quad 57s and they are a perfect match.
The only downside is the Levinson monoblocks run hot (they are pure Class A; doubling their power for each halving of load impedance), so in the summer I switch to another set of monoblock power amps (either a pair of Quad 510s or a pair of Tubehunter-modified and 'monoblocked' Quad 405s), both of which are virtually as good as the ML-2s but run much cooler.
aren't Quads a lot cheaper than Levinson when new though?
the_doc735
31-08-2017, 00:04
In the winter a big class A amp is the greenest energy one can have... switch off the heating whilst the hi fi is on and it does two functions whilst switched on, heating and entertainment. Yes totally serious.
:clapclapclap: :interesting: :exactly:
aren't Quads a lot cheaper than Levinson when new though?
Yes they are/were (I'm not sure if the 510s are still in production; no doubt replaced with the Quad 909M). I only mentioned them because they are what I use in the summer months to replace the Levinson ML-2s. The hot-running Levinsons plus the summer heat can sometimes make for an uncomfortable listening experience.
Arkless Electronics
31-08-2017, 00:15
aren't Quads a lot cheaper than Levinson when new though?
Just a bit:D
Barry. Do you know if Quads patent is still in force on current dumping?:eyebrows:
Just a bit:D
Barry. Do you know if Quads patent is still in force on current dumping?:eyebrows:
I don't think patents can run for more than 21 years, so I expect they will have lapsed by now.
The explosion of moving-coil cartridges that came out of Japan in the mid to late '70s was due to the lapse of Ortofon's SPU patent; and since that was marketed in 1958, it suggests patents have a maximum duration of ~ 20 years.
RothwellAudio
31-08-2017, 08:29
In the winter a big class A amp is the greenest energy one can have... switch off the heating whilst the hi fi is on and it does two functions whilst switched on, heating and entertainment. Yes totally serious.
Yes, the same thing applies to tungsten filament light bulbs. In summer it makes sense to use low energy light bulbs but in winter in a room which requires heating none of the energy consumed by a "high energy" light bulb is wasted - so they're just as green as LEDs.
The new design of Filament bulbs are way more efficient and surround the fileent in a crystaline structure that reflects the heat back to make more light. Its true that the light is much closer to the lights we want to see as well being warmer, and more like nature.
A standard bulb produces around 12% heat, 83% IR and only 5% visible light.
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