Are we engineers?

[magiccarpetride]

A friend, who is an engineer, visited my listening room last night. He got mighty intrigued by my Maggies. Wanted to hear them play.

After the playback, he pulled out his phone, activated the flashlight and the magnification, and started examining the speakers from all possible angles. "How the hell does it work? How can it emit such powerful bass?" he asked me.

I shrugged and wanted to pull a Seinfeld quote ("I listen to them. I don't explain them.") So I told him I have no idea how do planar speakers actually work.

That confession utterly shocked him! "How can you not be curious?" he wondered.

But you see, I'm not curious, because I only focus on getting audio components set up so that I get the best possible sound reproduction. Once I achieve that, I stop thinking and pondering over 'hmmmm, how does this shit actually work?"

But he was the exact opposite -- he was not in the least concerned about the quality of sound, he was totally zeroing in on the fact that it can produce such voluminous sound from what appears to be paper thin membrane.

That made me wonder -- are most audiophiles mostly engineers, or merely connoisseurs who only want to enjoy the final products?

[IHP]

Fine question Alex. I have sometimes pondered how an audio signal passes from my Tivo box via an optical cable (ie light) into a DAC, then to an amp (with valves, I don't get them either !) through bits of wire to speakers to make fine music. Speakers I get the basic principle of, the rest is just an utter mystery to me. This ponder came when I first connected the optical cable and noticed actual light emitting from it.

If we're stating our position, I'm firmly on the side of the fence that sits back with a beer and enjoys !

[Macca]

I was too thick to be an engineer but I am curious about things that interest me so I try to learn how hifi works, at least in layman's terms.

Even if it doesn't help specifically it helps in general outlook. I mean take a look at your speaker cables when you have something playing. You don't think that is actually musical sounds running through them do you?

Might sound obvious to the brilliant amongst you but it took me a long time to come to that revelation.

[magiccarpetride]

Fine question Alex. I have sometimes pondered how an audio signal passes from my Tivo box via an optical cable (ie light) into a DAC, then to an amp (with valves, I don't get them either !) through bits of wire to speakers to make fine music. Speakers I get the basic principle of, the rest is just an utter mystery to me. This ponder came when I first connected the optical cable and noticed actual light emitting from it.

If we're stating our position, I'm firmly on the side of the fence that sits back with a beer and enjoys !

I'm with you -- just want to sit back and enjoy the music with beer or a glass of wine...

My biggest mind boggle in the realm of audio reproduction tech is the vinyl grooves and the cartridge with the cantilever and the stylus. I can grasp the fact that, as the instruments are playing/people are signing, the mechanical vibrations in the instruments/vocal chords are pushing the air molecules. Those molecules then travel around the room, exciting other air molecules. Eventually, they hit the microphone membrane. The membrane vibrates commensurately with the air molecule vibrations. The membrane vibrations generate electrical signal that travels via the wire and into the recording machine (i.e. magnetophone or digital recorder).

So far so good. Now for the juicy part -- when switching to the mass production of the sound carrier medium (the vinyl LP), the magnetic (or digital) signal stored on the tape or on the hard drive is played back. That playback results in the electrical signal that is identical to the original signal that was produced during the original recording event (I'm oversimplifying here and ignoring the mixing/mastering etc., but bear with me). Now, the electrical signal is causing the record cutting head to move, and that motion is used to cut the groove on the stamper (oversimplification again).

The stamper is then being used to mass produce LPs. What I cannot for the life of me grok is how is it possible that such massive wealth of intricate musical details gets stored in such tiny, microscopic grooves? And furthermore, how is it possible to mechanically retrieve most of that information from such a tiny, wobbly source that is susceptible to so many crude interferences as it spins around?

[sumday]

"Are we Engineers"?.....sounds like a great name for a indie-punk band.

debut album "Semi detached retina" currently being recorded.....on a valve desk.



I'd buy it.

NIGE.

[Beobloke]

Why can't we be both?! I'm an engineer by qualification and profession but I'm an audiophile who cares very much about the sound as well.

I personally think the two can co-exist quite happily and my equipment choice is led by a mixture of objective and subjective criteria - namely, if it doesn't measure well then it doesn't go onto the shortlist, but the final decision is made using my ears. I want to know that it works properly AND sounds good!

[walpurgis]

Why can't we be both?

Exactly!

[Pharos]

I agree, but in Britain in particular the word covers a wide range of depth of involvement and abilities.

I didn't go further than T.Eng. level, due to self doubt, but there are many without formal quals who have done exceptional work.

A related question to the objectivist and subjectivist;
Does analysing the art add to or detract from enjoying it? The mind is differently configured in each process IMO.

[magiccarpetride]

Why can't we be both?! I'm an engineer by qualification and profession but I'm an audiophile who cares very much about the sound as well.

I personally think the two can co-exist quite happily and my equipment choice is led by a mixture of objective and subjective criteria - namely, if it doesn't measure well then it doesn't go onto the shortlist, but the final decision is made using my ears. I want to know that it works properly AND sounds good!

Knowing that it works properly (within the expected parameters) and knowing how it works may be two different things.

[narabdela]

From an early age I've always been fascinated by electronics and how audio and television works.

I can understand the "I don't care, I just sit back and enjoy" viewpoint, but I feel that this can leave you open to all the foo out there. There are plenty of charlatans making a fortune out of those who don't really understand the science behind their hobby.

[magiccarpetride]

From an early age I've always been fascinated by electronics and how audio and television works.

I can understand the "I don't care, I just sit back and enjoy" viewpoint, but I feel that this can leave you open to all the foo out there. There are plenty of charlatans making a fortune out of those who don't really understand the science behind their hobby.

At the same token, that insistence on first understanding how something works may preclude someone from enjoying a quality product. For example, my engineering friend would not consider buying Maggies unless he can grasp how do they work. Now, in my opinion, Maggies are marvellous speakers, giving you unique and very special sound that no other speakers can. So assuming that someone cannot wrap their heads around how does the Maggies magic work, and thus refuses to use them, they could be on a losing end of the stick.

[spendorman]

I agree, but in Britain in particular the word covers a wide range of depth of involvement and abilities.

I didn't go further than T.Eng. level, due to self doubt, but there are many without formal quals who have done exceptional work.

A related question to the objectivist and subjectivist;
Does analysing the art add to or detract from enjoying it? The mind is differently configured in each process IMO.

My boss at Electrolux (Research and Development dept.), had no formal qualification, but his knowledge of Electronics and Mechanics was encyclopaedic.

[montesquieu]

My closest friends are generally engineers or scientists. I think the attraction is mutual - I have massive respect for their knowledge (though I do like on occasion to puncture their - shall we say 'solemnity' - they can take themselves too seriously - not thinking of anyone specific here honest Jez). I love to watch what they do, attempt to follow what they are on about and occasionally disagree with them when I think they have carried logic beyond a point where logic can sensibily be applied.

On the other hand I know that my more arty perspective especially in the musical area, and ability to talk at length about how it all connects up (and demonstrate a point at the keyboard or guitar) is often appreciated in return.

Anyway I'm not an engineer and much of what they talk about to me goes whoosh, and I'm happy to admit that. Thankfully I have engineer friends who don't think that automatically invalidates any opinion.

[Arkless Electronics]

....Non taken :ner:

[Macca]

At the same token, that insistence on first understanding how something works may preclude someone from enjoying a quality product. For example, my engineering friend would not consider buying Maggies unless he can grasp how do they work. Now, in my opinion, Maggies are marvellous speakers, giving you unique and very special sound that no other speakers can. So assuming that someone cannot wrap their heads around how does the Maggies magic work, and thus refuses to use them, they could be on a losing end of the stick.

That makes no sense man. He can find out in five minutes how they work, it isn't a secret and it isn't rocket science either. The same applies to any hi-fi equipment, except for the stuff where even the people who make it don't know how it works, if indeed it does.

[narabdela]

That makes no sense man. He can find out in five minutes how they work, it isn't a secret and it isn't rocket science either.

I'd have to agree with that. Electrostatics might be intriguing if you've never come across them before, but they're actually very simple devices once you figure out what's going on. Vibrating diaphragm moves air...there's nothing remotely magical about it.

[Macca]

I'd have to agree with that. Electrostatics might be intriguing if you've never come across them before, but they're actually very simple devices once you figure out what's going on. Vibrating diaphragm moves air...there's nothing remotely magical about it.

Well this is it isn't it? The whole thing is just sending a variable voltage down some wires and vibrating a bit of material so it produces waves in air, doesn't really matter what the design of speakers are; or valve amp or solid state or whatever. Doing that isn't hard. Doing it so it sounds really good to a human being, that's where it gets interesting

[magiccarpetride]

Well this is it isn't it? The whole thing is just sending a variable voltage down some wires and vibrating a bit of material so it produces waves in air, doesn't really matter what the design of speakers are; or valve amp or solid state or whatever. Doing that isn't hard. Doing it so it sounds really good to a human being, that's where it gets interesting

That's what I mean. Trying to grasp how can such a simple contraption, as a Maggie speaker is, create such intricate reproduction of musical instruments and voices, that sounds so convincingly realistic?

I mean I can grab a flat piece of some thin material, I can shake and do all kinds of crazy gyrations with it to make it vibrate and make sounds, but I will never be able to make it sound like a flute, or like a guitar, or a piano, or resembling Joni Mitchell's voice. Maybe you geniuses could?

[walpurgis]

That's what I mean. Trying to grasp how can such a simple contraption, as a Maggie speaker is, create such intricate reproduction of musical instruments and voices, that sounds so convincingly realistic?

Easier than getting your head around how a plasma tweeter works. It has no moving parts.

[sq225917]

Maggie's aren't stats though. They use permanent magnets and a non conductive film that has wire or foil conductors bonded to it. The signal causes the film to be pushed and pulled in the magnetic field, making sound. You don't need to be an engineer to understand that principle.

[Macca]

That's what I mean. Trying to grasp how can such a simple contraption, as a Maggie speaker is, create such intricate reproduction of musical instruments and voices, that sounds so convincingly realistic?

I mean I can grab a flat piece of some thin material, I can shake and do all kinds of crazy gyrations with it to make it vibrate and make sounds, but I will never be able to make it sound like a flute, or like a guitar, or a piano, or resembling Joni Mitchell's voice. Maybe you geniuses could?

It is marvellous that it works, but only in the same way that our very existence is marvellous. I think in practical terms it works because our brains are very good at pattern recognition so even though the reproduction is only a facsimile of the original, it is close enough that we make the connection. I mean the cat sat next to you hears the same sounds but they mean nothing to him.

[walpurgis]

It's quite a simple thing. If you get a square of aluminium foil, put it in front of a strong magnet and pass a music signal from an amp through it using a series resistor, you will hear music coming from the foil. The diaphragm on a Maggie is doing the same job as a pice of foil would.

I know the above works, 'cos I tried it years ago when I was playing with tweeter design ideas. The results were not too encouraging, but you couldn't get powerful modern neo magnets back then. Still think of experimenting again, using slit foil ribbons Apogee style.

[magiccarpetride]

It is marvellous that it works, but only in the same way that our very existence is marvellous. I think in practical terms it works because our brains are very good at pattern recognition so even though the reproduction is only a facsimile of the original, it is close enough that we make the connection. I mean the cat sat next to you hears the same sounds but they mean nothing to him.

Yeah, I can make various objects produce sound by manipulating them, but I can never make those objects sound like a musical instrument. Probably a lack of talent on my part.

[Macca]

It's quite a simple thing. If you get a square of aluminium foil, put it in front of a strong magnet and pass a music signal from an amp through it using a series resistor, you will hear music coming from the foil. .

This is what I was trying to say earlier. It isn't a 'music signal' until the point at which your brain interprets it as such. Before then it is just varying electrical voltage causing a device to make changes in air pressure.

[walpurgis]

This is what I was trying to say earlier. It isn't a 'music signal' until the point at which your brain interprets it as such. Before then it is just varying electrical voltage causing a device to make changes in air pressure.

Lug'oles is everything mate! :)

[southall-1998]

It's quite a simple thing. If you get a square of aluminium foil, put it in front of a strong magnet and pass a music signal from an amp through it using a series resistor, you will hear music coming from the foil. The diaphragm on a Maggie is doing the same job as a pice of foil would.

I know the above works, 'cos I tried it years ago when I was playing with tweeter design ideas. The results were not too encouraging, but you couldn't get powerful modern neo magnets back then. Still think of experimenting again, using slit foil ribbons Apogee style.

The ESL 57 beater :D

S.

[magiccarpetride]

It's quite a simple thing. If you get a square of aluminium foil, put it in front of a strong magnet and pass a music signal from an amp through it using a series resistor, you will hear music coming from the foil. The diaphragm on a Maggie is doing the same job as a pice of foil would.

I know the above works, 'cos I tried it years ago when I was playing with tweeter design ideas. The results were not too encouraging, but you couldn't get powerful modern neo magnets back then. Still think of experimenting again, using slit foil ribbons Apogee style.

Finally, a good explanation!

[magiccarpetride]

That makes no sense man. He can find out in five minutes how they work, it isn't a secret and it isn't rocket science either. The same applies to any hi-fi equipment, except for the stuff where even the people who make it don't know how it works, if indeed it does.

Well, if it were that easy figuring out how it works, then my engineer friend wouldn't leave the session scratching his head as if he's seen a ghost. So obviously that remained a mystery for that engineer. And he is no slouch when it comes to figuring out how stuff works. Only this time it wasn't that intuitive for him. Unless he got access to the tech manual, it would remain a challenge for him to figure it out.

[narabdela]

Well, if it were that easy figuring out how it works, then my engineer friend wouldn't leave the session scratching his head as if he's seen a ghost. So obviously that remained a mystery for that engineer. And he is no slouch when it comes to figuring out how stuff works. Only this time it wasn't that intuitive for him. Unless he got access to the tech manual, it would remain a challenge for him to figure it out.

Is he an Electronics Engineer or a Civil Engineer? :scratch:

[struth]

Suppose you meet a girl in a park. She's riding a bike. Taking off all her clothes she screams 'Take whatever you want'
If you take the bike, you're an engineer.;)

[Macca]

Well, if it were that easy figuring out how it works, then my engineer friend wouldn't leave the session scratching his head as if he's seen a ghost. So obviously that remained a mystery for that engineer. And he is no slouch when it comes to figuring out how stuff works. Only this time it wasn't that intuitive for him. Unless he got access to the tech manual, it would remain a challenge for him to figure it out.

Maybe if this was 1965 but we do have this thing called 'the internet' nowadays https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_loudspeaker

[walpurgis]

Magneplanar speakers could I suppose be seen as 'moving coil' types, although the configuration is not conventional. There is no wound coil, but a wire conductor distributed across the diaphragm, which sits in front of magnets.

[narabdela]

Electrostatic, Magnetostatic, moving coil, ribbons...all the same general principle. Piezoelectric and Plasma take a bit more thinking about, but I still find it weird that an engineer couldn't figure out Maggies.

[Audio Al]

I was too thick to be an engineer

And me :D

[magiccarpetride]

Is he an Electronics Engineer or a Civil Engineer? :scratch:

Mechanical engineer.

[Stratmangler]

Mechanical engineer.

That figures :rolleyes:

[magiccarpetride]

That figures :rolleyes:

Are only electrical engineers qualified to figure out how stuff works?

[walpurgis]

Are only electrical engineers qualified to figure out how stuff works?

I think 'able' might have been a better word than qualified.

[magiccarpetride]

I think 'able' might have been a better word than qualified.

Good point. Many are qualified, few are able. So how does stuff work?

[walpurgis]

So how does stuff work?

I find out and learn as much as I need to in order to achieve my ends. I like knowing how things work.

[Stratmangler]

I find out and learn as much as I need to in order to achieve my ends. I like knowing how things work.

As do I.

[walpurgis]

Ah, but do you know how to rebuild a car engine, a jet engine, a steam engine? Build a house, a road, a boat, a bicycle? Not saying I've done all those, but I could. As I say, I like knowing how things work.

One of my favourite mechanical things is the Napier Deltic engine. Sheer brilliance (for its time).

https://s26.postimg.org/vkw6u1fmx/mxcp33-3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[magiccarpetride]

Ah, but do you know how to rebuild a car engine, a jet engine, a steam engine? Build a house, a road, a boat, a bicycle? Not saying I've done all those, but I could. As I say, I like knowing how things work.

One of my favourite mechanical things is the Napier Deltic engine. Sheer brilliance (for its time).

https://s26.postimg.org/vkw6u1fmx/mxcp33-3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I don't even know how to shoe a horse.

[walpurgis]

My cousin was a blacksmith and farrier. In France, in the fifties.

[Stratmangler]

Ah, but do you know how to rebuild a car engine, a jet engine, a steam engine? Build a house, a road, a boat, a bicycle? Not saying I've done all those, but I could. As I say, I like knowing how things work

It's one thing knowing how to do things, but it's a much more important thing knowing when to hand something over to someone who actually does.
I didn't attempt to change out my car's starter motor recently.
My back wouldn't have thanked me for it :)

[Beobloke]

So how does stuff work?

"Chickens go in; pies come out..."

;)

[magiccarpetride]

"Chickens go in; pies come out..."

;)

So chicken comes first?

[Minstrel SE]

I do love a tear down video and I love to see engineers like Ben Heck in action. He repairs things to a complex chip level and designs all sorts of things in a very clever way from parts available. He got that ultra rare Nintendo Playstation working and hes taking visual display readings that I couldnt even dream of.

I would love to see the great names from British Hi fi in action. Watching Joe Ackroyd at work would be so interesting to me

Im just a casual observer that likes to dabble with easy things. I only like to know how things work to a point because If I cant service it properly, I dont want to know any more.

Im like my dad. I get stuck into specific things but the whole circuit design is still double dutch to me. The real geniuses are the people who design chips and pcbs with a real understanding and clear vision of whats going on.

I like to think I could learn and design my own amplifier. On the whole though I just want to listen to electrostatics after the design engineers have done the hard work.

How do you get a job at SME? I will make the tea while I learn the trade