View Full Version : Has anyone had any experience with Amarra?
twelvebears
02-02-2010, 13:03
This came up in conversation with the chap who runs Item Audio and I wondered of any AOSers using a Mac as their music source had any views.
My (probably rubbish) understanding is that iTunes has a particular 'sound' and handles music files in a certain way, thus influencing the digital output.
Amarra seems to be a plug-in which interfaces with and takes over the way core audio is handled and (aledgedly) results is a more accurate version being passed via the digital output, and thus to the DAC.
If anyone has got views, I'd love to hear them.
I use PLEX (basically a Mac dedicated kind of XBMC) to access all my media and it interfaces with iTunes. What I don't know (but have asked) is to what degree PLEX actually uses iTunes when playing music. Personally I only think it uses the library info, as you can add music sources other than iTunes (i.e. a drive full of FLAC files) but I'd like to know.
Steve, in my opinion there are two ways of handling PC audio : bit-perfect or not bit-perfect.
There's no evidence whatsoever (although it is would have been very easy to provide it) that iTunes does not handle audio bit-perfectly.
Worse than that, several firms (like Benchmark) which have done some tests, have stated explicitly that the normal core components are bit-perfect while several other "custom software and drivers" are not (see page 25+ of http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/manuals/DAC1-HDR-Manual-RevC.pdf).
If you need details of how to setup your system for bit-perfect playback, see http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
There cannot be any software differences for handling bit-perfect audio : only hardware differences. ;)
twelvebears
02-02-2010, 14:28
Steve, in my opinion there are two ways of handling PC audio : bit-perfect or not bit-perfect.
There's no evidence whatsoever (although it is would have been very easy to provide it) that iTunes does not handle audio bit-perfectly.
Worse than that, several firms (like Benchmark) which have done some tests, have stated explicitly that the normal core components are bit-perfect while several other "custom software and drivers" are not (see page 25+ of http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/manuals/DAC1-HDR-Manual-RevC.pdf).
If you need details of how to setup your system for bit-perfect playback, see http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
There cannot be any software differences for handling bit-perfect audio : only hardware differences. ;)
I have to say that I'd be inclined to believe that too, however the view seems to be from some over on Computer Audiophile that iTunes *seems* to add a signature and impact soundstage etc.... Hence the justification for Amarra, which is a quite expensive piece of software and USB dongle (about £180).
As it happens, although I use iTunes to manage my music, I don't generally use it to listen to it, and PLEX uses it's owninternal audio player, PAPlayer.
Out of curiosity, I may try doing so A-B comparisions between the two, but as you say, there shouldn't be any difference....
purite audio
02-02-2010, 14:30
Dimitri Hi, Amarra doesn't perform any DSP, what it does ( and also other players like PV ) is use some clever maths and cache the data from the HD to RAM, results can vary from system to system but it can make a significant improvement over standard itunes.
It also automatically senses and changes sample rates, ( so you don't have to keep quitting itunes, opening audio midi resetting etc ) it has a properly dithered digital attenuator so you can use it as a preamp, with remote and it has a built in EQ should you need it.
Keith.
I have to say that I'd be inclined to believe that too, however the view seems to be from some over on Computer Audiophile that iTunes *seems* to add a signature and impact soundstage etc.... Hence the justification for Amarra, which is a quite expensive piece of software and USB dongle (about £180).
As it happens, although I use iTunes to manage my music, I don't generally use it to listen to it, and PLEX uses it's owninternal audio player, PAPlayer.
Out of curiosity, I may try doing so A-B comparisions between the two, but as you say, there shouldn't be any difference....
Curiosity is a good thing. :)
Of course, if your system is properly set, we can talk about the differences later.
Dimitri Hi, Amarra doesn't perform any DSP, what it does ( and also other players like PV ) is use some clever maths and cache the data from the HD to RAM, results can vary from system to system but it can make a significant improvement over standard itunes.
It also automatically senses and changes sample rates, ( so you don't have to keep quitting itunes, opening audio midi resetting etc ) it has a properly dithered digital attenuator so you can use it as a preamp, with remote and it has a built in EQ should you need it.
Keith.
Hi Keith,
easiness for changing sample rates can indeed be a plus. Although, depending on the system (for me: Windows 7) you don't even have to stop playback to release/change/re-enslave a USB driver when changing
sample rate. But, some systems and versions need to do otherwise, I suppose. ;)
For the maths, I don't see which maths are there involved in creating then sending a buffer. I won't get into details of driver calls and parameter handling, but believe me, it's my job: there's no math. ;)
And the HD to RAM trick ... : if this is could be true, then we could start thinking that different processors, motherboards or memories (2x512 ? 2x1Gb ? 2x2Gb) can produce a different sound. Even with Amarra.
So... ?. How can a software master EM emissions and DC tensions ? A mystery to me. :scratch: Once more, as it's my job (at least as much as the Amarra guys), I can tell you that it's only hype, based on peoples' ignorance.
Whatever happens up to the point the data is received by the USB driver is of no importance as far as the integrity of these data is concerned. Fortunately, otherwise, we would never use computers... :)
I think it's snobbery. Free (iTunes) can't be good, ergo, pay for Amarra. Some audiophiles won't take you seriously if you use itunes.
twelvebears
02-02-2010, 19:55
Curiosity is a good thing. :)
Of course, if your system is properly set, we can talk about the differences later.
OK, I went into the Audio setting and shifted everything to 24bit/96kHz, disable the bits in iTunes and have now restarted iTunes and all sound good.
Incidentally I've now realised I have to give up on Plex as my music solution as it can't play high-res files. I discovered this because I have one 24/96 file - Hallelujah by Jeff Buckley and PLEX wouldn't play it.
Also before I did all this I tested the two back to back with a selection of well recorded tracks and couldn't detect any difference.
Perhaps I have low-res ears....
purite audio
02-02-2010, 21:42
Hi Keith,
easiness for changing sample rates can indeed be a plus. Although, depending on the system (for me: Windows 7) you don't even have to stop playback to release/change/re-enslave a USB driver when changing
sample rate. But, some systems and versions need to do otherwise, I suppose. ;)
For the maths, I don't see which maths are there involved in creating then sending a buffer. I won't get into details of driver calls and parameter handling, but believe me, it's my job: there's no math. ;)
And the HD to RAM trick ... : if this is could be true, then we could start thinking that different processors, motherboards or memories (2x512 ? 2x1Gb ? 2x2Gb) can produce a different sound. Even with Amarra.
So... ?. How can a software master EM emissions and DC tensions ? A mystery to me. :scratch: Once more, as it's my job (at least as much as the Amarra guys), I can tell you that it's only hype, based on peoples' ignorance.
Whatever happens up to the point the data is received by the USB driver is of no importance as far as the integrity of these data is concerned. Fortunately, otherwise, we would never use computers... :)
Dimitri you have been writing audio software since the 1980's and your software is perhaps the most respected in the pro audio world?
Keith.
Dimitri you have been writing audio software since the 1980's and your software is perhaps the most respected in the pro audio world?
Keith.
:)
Keith... what audio has to do with that ? Are we talking about bit-perfect data transferring to USB devises or about some audio transformation here ? :eyebrows:
If we are talking about audio algorithms then we are not talking about bit-perfect USB audio, but rather about software upsampling. This, indeed is NOT my job, it doesn't even interest me and -certainly- other people should know better than me about it.
BUT: if we are talking about transferring stored data to another device... well, there's nothing "algorithmic" about it. And yes, any programmer can do that, you don't need any math degree : just the protocol specifications, a counter, the buffer to transfer and the handle to call. Do you see something more ? :scratch:
And yes, I've been writing software since 1981. But I don't see what it has to do with my argumentation...
purite audio
02-02-2010, 23:07
Dimitri here is Jon Reichbachs email address, I suggest you email him and pose your questions directly, you might write to Rob at Pure Vinyl while you are at it.
jon@sonicstudios.com
Keith.
Dimitri here is Jon Reichbachs email address, I suggest you email him and pose your questions directly, you might write to Rob at Pure Vinyl while you are at it.
jon@sonicstudios.com
Keith.
I'm too shy for that, Keith. :)
I have no unanswered questions. Everything that is on their site explanations is clear to me.
As I'm not interested in Sample Rate Conversion and the -inevitable- dithering that is involved (I leave that to my dac) I don't see how Amarra can do any better (if you remove this feature) than any other player.
Now, if someone considers replacing dac upsampling by software upsampling, well, perhaps Amarra is the route to take. :)
twelvebears
03-02-2010, 07:10
Dimitri.
I've followed the guide you pointed me to (thanks) and made all the suggested changes to iTunes, but there was one question that occured to me: As digital output is now set at 24/96 does this now mean that my Mac is upsampling all my existing lossless files?
If so, is this the best option? Or is it preferable for my Mac to output the digital at the music file's native sample rates?
Dimitri.
I've followed the guide you pointed me to (thanks) and made all the suggested changes to iTunes, but there was one question that occured to me: As digital output is now set at 24/96 does this now mean that my Mac is upsampling all my existing lossless files?
If so, is this the best option? Or is it preferable for my Mac to output the digital at the music file's native sample rates?
If you use iTunes 7 or higher, then your setting is correct and your Mac is not upsampling anything (except if you use DSP and volume control).
If you use earlier versions, you need to set the exact sampling rate before you launch iTunes. ;) EDIT: You can still stick to this way of doing things if you have very few 24/96 files and are afraid of a bug.
twelvebears
03-02-2010, 07:51
If you use iTunes 7 or higher, then your setting is correct and your Mac is not upsampling anything (except if you use DSP and volume control).
If you use earlier versions, you need to set the exact sampling rate before you launch iTunes. ;) EDIT: You can still stick to this way of doing things if you have very few 24/96 files and are afraid of a bug.
Cheers Dimitri.
No I've been very careful to disable volume controls, equaliser, preamp, soundcheck etc. and have the iTunes volume slider at max.
At the moment the only hi-res stuff I have is the one Jeff Buckley track and the Robert Plant / Alison Krauss album Raising Sand, which I found last night. AND OH MY GOD IT SOUNDS GREAT!!
The trouble is I'm now desparately trying to find more true hi-res music. Unfortunately I'm not into classical or jazz so my choices are seriously limited.
I tried to find too, but there are very few alternatives outside classical and jazz, as you say... :(
I buy some Scottish from Linn sometimes. But not all of them are high-rez. We'll have to wait a little, I guess. ;)
Yes thats the major issue not enough rock and pop on high resolution
twelvebears
03-02-2010, 08:33
Yes thats the major issue not enough rock and pop on high resolution
For 'enough', I'd say that was nearer 'any'... :(
twelvebears
03-02-2010, 11:22
I think it's snobbery. Free (iTunes) can't be good, ergo, pay for Amarra. Some audiophiles won't take you seriously if you use itunes.
I have to say Lee that I'm inclided to agree. Surely iTunes is just for hoodie-wearing iPod users? Not for use *serious* hi-fi geeks? ;)
Last night I listened VERY carefully to a number of my stock test tracks, which are chosen for the a variety of things which help spot differences:
Extreme - More Than Words (cheesy but well recorded with great sense of the acoustics of the studio it was recorded in)
Tracy Chapman - Mountains Of Things (specifically for the percussion on this track)
Dire Straits - You And Your Friend (great sense of where the musicians are located)
And my conclusion having compaired these files via speakers and headphones, through VLC, iTunes and PLEX?
Couldn't pin down any specific differences whatsoever.
So unless these all handle digital in the same *wrong* way. it looks like my cash is safe from an Amarra purchase.
I think Keith uses it in his own system so if you live close to North London contact him he is one of the good guys
For me it seems a lot of money and until there is enough HD media music i want to purchase not for me
twelvebears
03-02-2010, 12:35
I think Keith uses it in his own system so if you live close to North London contact him he is one of the good guys
For me it seems a lot of money and until there is enough HD media music i want to purchase not for me
Cheers John, I'm just north of London in Hemel Hempstead so I may just do that.
Agree with you however, it seems expensive given that I couldn't detect differences between iTunes and two other players with normal lossless files, and with the tweaks to my Mac that Dimitri pointed out, true hi-res files already sound pretty awesome. I just wish there were more of them....
Amarra has two or three main advantages (imho):
- It switches between sample rates seamlessly in an OS-independent way (useful for beginners who don't want to get into implementation details and have various sample rates)
- It can upsample better than other software (if you don't want bit-perfect playback)
- It has a good volume control (for those who don't have a preamp)
It has other features (like EQ, etc) but less vital for common use.
purite audio
03-02-2010, 14:53
Dimitri have you actually tried Amarra or Pure Vinyl?
Keith.
Dimitri have you actually tried Amarra or Pure Vinyl?
Keith.
Hi Keith,
No, I haven't personally tried Amarra. There is no fully functional trial version to download, afaik. I just have a friend using it (or was using it, at least).
You know, I mainly use Squeezebox for my playback. I rarely use my laptop for listening, except through headphones.
I didn't even know what Pure Vinyl is, before you mention it... Does it exist on Windows ?
Stratmangler
03-02-2010, 15:54
I didn't even know what Pure Vinyl is, before you mention it... Does it exist on Windows ?
Hi Dimitri
Have a look here (http://www.channld.com/pure-vinyl.html);)
The last audio software I bought was dbPoweramp Reference, because it's the only software I know of capable of extracting HDCD material from CD's.
As for the Amarra stuff, well someone will probably pipe up that the HDD you run in your machine has a significant effect on SQ, and that some drives sound better than others.:eyebrows:
Chris;)
purite audio
03-02-2010, 19:36
Dimitri Hi, do you use an external dac with your SB?
Keith.
Dimitri Hi, do you use an external dac with your SB?
Keith.
Yes Keith, I use three external dacs at the moment at home and another when I'm travelling. It depends a bit on my mood (and the material) the one I listen to, to say the truth. :o
(and I haven't forgotten about the Hiface, that I plan to get from you, no worries ;))
purite audio
03-02-2010, 21:29
D Hi, there is a French distributor, 'Hamy' , very best,Keith.
btw do you ever find yourself at the Munich Hi-end show? Be pleasant to meet,
I have to say Ian that I'm inclided to agree. Surely iTunes is just for hoodie-wearing iPod users? Not for use *serious* hi-fi geeks? ;)
So unless these all handle digital in the same *wrong* way. it looks like my cash is safe from an Amarra purchase.
Ian? Who he?
And good for you, buy me a beer eh? :cool:
Twelvebears, ahem sorry, Steve,
Take a look at Soundsource for input switching etc. Read here (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/soundsource-switch-audio-outputs-mac-os-x) and download here (http://rogueamoeba.com/freebies/).
I don't have any other devices set up in Audio Midi setup so I don't see any selections in the list, but you should.
Hope that helps.
Edit: My mistake, that doesn't alter the sample rate. Hmmm, try here (http://www.computeraudiophile.com/Semi-Automatic-Sample-Rate-Solution-CA-SampleRate).
I had Amarra demonstrated to me in Munich last year - it made a pretty clear improvement at the time I thought.
twelvebears
05-02-2010, 07:12
Cheers Lee, that's helpful.
So as I understand it, setting the digital output at 24/96 and just leaving it is a bad thing because it means the Mac is upsampling anything played which is 16/44 (i.e. the vast majority of my music) and therefore is not outputting 'bit perfect' data?
S.
twelvebears
05-02-2010, 07:35
I had Amarra demonstrated to me in Munich last year - it made a pretty clear improvement at the time I thought.
Can I just say, that having rummaged around on Sonic Studio's own website and various others, I can actully find ANYTHING which clearly explains WHY Amarra should sound better an iTunes. More specifically, there's nothing about what iTunes is getting wrong (apparantely).
OK, yes I get the fact that it automatically switches between 16/44 and 24/96 (or whatever rate the file is), so that you're getting the right output without any resampling happening in the PC, but assuming the files are standard 16/44 and the audio/midi output settings are at 16/44, that what is Amarra doing (or not that iTunes is) to inprove things?
Unfortunately, the a bit of software costing £180, it doesn't really explain itself at all well.....
twelvebears
05-02-2010, 07:36
For the amount of hi-res files I have and play at the moment, I'm going with the little Applescript to switch output settings....
Thanks Lee.
No worries, glad to be of help
Can I just say, that having rummaged around on Sonic Studio's own website and various others, I can actully find ANYTHING which clearly explains WHY Amarra should sound better an iTunes. More specifically, there's nothing about what iTunes is getting wrong (apparantely).
OK, yes I get the fact that it automatically switches between 16/44 and 24/96 (or whatever rate the file is), so that you're getting the right output without any resampling happening in the PC, but assuming the files are standard 16/44 and the audio/midi output settings are at 16/44, that what is Amarra doing (or not that iTunes is) to inprove things?
Unfortunately, the a bit of software costing £180, it doesn't really explain itself at all well.....
Perhaps I should make my position clear with regard to Amarra. Personally I have absolutely no interest in digital playback at all. I am familiar with the quality available with digital but remain firmly in the 'records sound best - full stop' camp. As a result I had absolutely no expectation bias with regard to Amarra and have (nor had) no interest in how it may (or may not) work.
At the time it was demonstrated to me (which was at the Munich hi-fi show) I was with an interested colleague. We had been told that it was being used as part of a system at the spin-off show. As it turned out the people using it were most reluctant to demonstrate it at all as Amarra was not one of the parties paying for the room. However, after some polite pleading (and a significant wait) it was demonstrated (they just turned it on and off) a few times. The soundstage definitely sounded more three dimensional and vocalists projected better (better texture to the voice too), when Amarra was turned on; I was asked my opinion and that is what I said - I was completely free to say it made no difference or that it sounded worse.
I don't really care how it works but it certainly seemed to. Anyway, as I said, I have absolutely no 'axe to grind' with regard to Amarra as digital playback of all kinds is only a fringe (and a distant one at that) interest of mine.
(in the system I heard it in £180 wouldn't even have bought an interconnect)
D Hi, there is a French distributor, 'Hamy' , very best,Keith.
btw do you ever find yourself at the Munich Hi-end show? Be pleasant to meet,
Hi Keith, thanks for the info.
No Muncih this year I'm afraid... my son has some exams so I guess I won't be able to move much. But next year, it'll be possible. It'll be nice to meet you, too. ;)
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