View Full Version : MeBob's System - for upgrade.
Hello Andy, Allan, Zoidburg and Geoff,
Andy & Zoidburg
Yes, thanks I'm grateful for your offers of a listen I'd very much like to hear what a proper hifi system sounds like. If we could arrange for whenever is mutually convenient (I'm working some odd hours at the moment).
Andy, I've been online and had a look at your speakers, my compliments, they really do look like the serious business end of things!
Firebottle
It's an Arcam Alpha 10 power amp.
Firstly, it's probably best if I describe my present system, it will give you everyone an idea of where I'm at.
PC / Asus Zonar D1 soundcard-> generic chinese dac/preamp -> Marantz pm6003 -> Dali Zensor 3's/Mission 751Fs
I suspect there might be a few of you either cringing with disgust or having a good chuckle at that PC/soundcard Chinese dac arrangement (and why not?).
I listen to mainly Flacs and 320k mp3s and in all honesty for a budget end system it's good, the amp is very musical and reasonably detailed, while keeping a nice foot tapping tempo with the music. Both sets speakers allow the amp to shine.
Considering I paid £180 open box/new (Richersound) for the amp, £55 for the missions and £219 (new) for the Zensors I've cornered a few deals. Let's not mention the soundcard or Chinese dac.
I've used the word "shine" and I have to say sometimes it does too much of this in a bright sense. While listening to the Bob Dylan's "I want you", I feel like covering my ears to the harmonica solo at the start and while listening to classical music things can also get a little hazy/bright during complex pieces.
I'm definitely looking for a nudge to the warm side in my upgrades.
The Arcam Alpha 10P I mentioned above, I'm not sure if it's regarded as a decent piece of kit or not by this forum? For me though it was a clear step up from the Marantz. It was so much more composed, more detailed, better bass, slightly smoother treble / mids and much more of a 3D effect with instruments and vocals separated out. And the power really helps hearing detail and bass a lower volume levels.
There are a few minus points though, listening to Andre Rieu, Blue Danube, the Forever Vienna cd, this is a piece that ebbs and flows exquisitely, the amp managed to do this, but just backed off a little tempo wise when is should really have attacked the crescendos (like my Marantz does). The bass may be just slightly more than I expected, I'd probably become used to it.
The Arcam is my first real taste of HiFi (I believe) and something along these lines is what I'm looking for.
I do quite a lot of near field listening whilst working at a desk, we also have young children in the house and so the system needs to perform at lower volumes at night.
Thanks,
Rob
Ali Tait
18-08-2017, 15:44
No cringing going on, lots of folk using a pc soundcard and dac. :-)
Welcome btw.
walpurgis
18-08-2017, 15:46
You could have a listen to mine too, but I figure you wouldn't fancy a 250 mile drive! :D
walpurgis
18-08-2017, 15:51
The Arcam Alpha 10P I mentioned above, I'm not sure if it's regarded as a decent piece of kit or not by this forum?
Use what you like Rob. Any audio is respected here. We have no time for Hi-Fi snobbery. Although a top notch system is always appreciated (regardless of the huge dent in the bank account :)).
Hi Rob
Trouble with Dylan's harmonica means distortion in the signal and I suspect the cause is the pre-amp section in your DAC.
That's where I would be looking to upgrade first and then the power amp next.
Zoidburg
18-08-2017, 17:42
Hello Andy, Allan, Zoidburg and Geoff,
Andy & Zoidburg
Yes, thanks I'm grateful for your offers of a listen I'd very much like to hear what a proper hifi system sounds like. If we could arrange for whenever is mutually convenient (I'm working some odd hours at the moment).
Andy, I've been online and had a look at your speakers, my compliments, they really do look like the serious business end of things!
Firebottle
It's an Arcam Alpha 10 power amp.
Firstly, it's probably best if I describe my present system, it will give you everyone an idea of where I'm at.
PC / Asus Zonar D1 soundcard-> generic chinese dac/preamp -> Marantz pm6003 -> Dali Zensor 3's/Mission 751Fs
I suspect there might be a few of you either cringing with disgust or having a good chuckle at that PC/soundcard Chinese dac arrangement (and why not?).
I listen to mainly Flacs and 320k mp3s and in all honesty for a budget end system it's good, the amp is very musical and reasonably detailed, while keeping a nice foot tapping tempo with the music. Both sets speakers allow the amp to shine.
Considering I paid £180 open box/new (Richersound) for the amp, £55 for the missions and £219 (new) for the Zensors I've cornered a few deals. Let's not mention the soundcard or Chinese dac.
I've used the word "shine" and I have to say sometimes it does too much of this in a bright sense. While listening to the Bob Dylan's "I want you", I feel like covering my ears to the harmonica solo at the start and while listening to classical music things can also get a little hazy/bright during complex pieces.
I'm definitely looking for a nudge to the warm side in my upgrades.
The Arcam Alpha 10P I mentioned above, I'm not sure if it's regarded as a decent piece of kit or not by this forum? For me though it was a clear step up from the Marantz. It was so much more composed, more detailed, better bass, slightly smoother treble / mids and much more of a 3D effect with instruments and vocals separated out. And the power really helps hearing detail and bass a lower volume levels.
There are a few minus points though, listening to Andre Rieu, Blue Danube, the Forever Vienna cd, this is a piece that ebbs and flows exquisitely, the amp managed to do this, but just backed off a little tempo wise when is should really have attacked the crescendos (like my Marantz does). The bass may be just slightly more than I expected, I'd probably become used to it.
The Arcam is my first real taste of HiFi (I believe) and something along these lines is what I'm looking for.
I do quite a lot of near field listening whilst working at a desk, we also have young children in the house and so the system needs to perform at lower volumes at night.
Thanks,
Rob
Evening Rob,
I'm in Halewood so probably not too far from you. I've some work going on in my living room at the mo but should be sorted back end of next week and il have things up and running again. Drop me a pm and we'll try and arrange something.
P's I'm just listening to a dylan "best of" on my system at the mo, not a hint of "hands over ears" here :eyebrows::lol:
MikeMusic
19-08-2017, 11:50
I'd start at the front end.
That for me is the mains. Unswitched socket or bank thereof.
Plug in mains filter like a Tacima nice and cheap.
Good mains cable or two.
Rack, supports like RDC cones.
Nice cheap granite placemat or similar on any kit that will take it.
All of these can stay or upgrade when you upgrade the rest
My Arcam Alpha amp and Pioneer CD player responded well to all of those
Then I'd work through each piece of kit
Hi Rob
Nothing wrong with Budget Hi Fi provided you get the set up right. I use a modest solid state system if I am writing reports or working while listening, its comprises a Vortex box into a Squeezebox touch into a Quad 34 into Quad 606 using Q Acoustic 3020 speakers all in probably cost no more than £750.00 total. I took some care with the set up and to be honest I do sometimes question why I have the big system (until you turn the big system on, then you appreciate the difference) The point is that Hi Fi is often not a ten minute fix, its constantly evolving thing as you introduce different components into the mix. Remember most of us have been evolving our systems for years and years always searching for that final peice of the jigsaw which of course we never find :)
I am not exactly on your doorstep mate but if you fancy a run out you would be very welcome, I work from home so can be flexible if you find you have a morning or an afternoon spare then chances are I will be available, I also have a listening room dedicated to the Hi Fi so there is no interferance with daily life LOL.
I will drop you a PM with my postcode so you can investigate whether or not it would be worth your while coming along given that some of the lads offering you a listen and a helping hand will be much more local. But its your choice, my experiance suggests the more stuff you get to hear the more you will know what you want to try and acheive at your own place.
Andy
Hello Macca & oldius,
That generic Chinese dac/preamp is by far the weakest link in my system and I have to say I've done things the wrong way around and bought an amp when the source that feeds it is not up to standard.
The soundcard has a PCM passthrough mode via toslink for bit perfect copies, so I'm happy with that.
It's logical that I should make the source as good as I can and so as a priority I'm looking for a new Dac/Preamp and the Beresford Caimain seems to be mentioned a lot on the internet.
Oldius, I've noticed you have a Beresford Caiman II, used as a dac and preamp would this be a good buy to be used with more expensive upgrades later?
Thanks,
Rob
Hello Zoidburg
Good things are always worth waiting for. I'll send you a message after the weekend.
Hello Walpurgis & Ali Tait,
Thanks for your understanding and acceptance of my kit and I have to say with my kit I almost feel like a sinner come to repent when I see some of the kit owned by forum members.
Wallpurgis
The 250 miles does seem like a bit of a marathon, it's a pity, but many thanks for the offer.
Hello MikeMusic,
I've pulled the trigger on a Tacima 6 way with Amazon. I didn't know a domestic electric supply could be so problematic.
I did have a Belkin surge protector, but nothing that filters interference.
I don't have my system on a rack it's just a PC Feeding my amp, the amp is on a shelf above my work desk and the speakers off to the sides on a shelf. It's probably not the best audiophile way of doing things, but I'm stuck with it for the time being.
Thanks for the tip on the Tacima, the cables will follow.
Rob
Hello Andy
My gut instincts have overcome the distances involved, I strongly suspect your system is probably not one to missed.
Firstly though, I'd like to take up the kind offers of a listen from the local lads, I'm also in the process of buying a new car (as well as Hifi) and once I've sorted myself out a trip over the wind swept moors won't seem so far.
Looking at your list of amplifiers, Quad is the only brand I recognise. I'm curious about the 606 amp, how does it sound in general and is it warm (how are the mid/treble)?
Thanks
Hello Macca & oldius,
That generic Chinese dac/preamp is by far the weakest link in my system and I have to say I've done things the wrong way around and bought an amp when the source that feeds it is not up to standard.
The soundcard has a PCM passthrough mode via toslink for bit perfect copies, so I'm happy with that.
It's logical that I should make the source as good as I can and so as a priority I'm looking for a new Dac/Preamp and the Beresford Caimain seems to be mentioned a lot on the internet.
Oldius, I've noticed you have a Beresford Caiman II, used as a dac and preamp would this be a good buy to be used with more expensive upgrades later?
Thanks,
Rob
My son uses the Caiman II. I think it's a great value piece of kit and he uses it with some active studio monitors to great effect. I'd always recommend listening to kit in your home as upgrades can be expensive and not an upgrade!
MikeMusic
19-08-2017, 16:49
Hello MikeMusic,
I've pulled the trigger on a Tacima 6 way with Amazon. I didn't know a domestic electric supply could be so problematic.
I did have a Belkin surge protector, but nothing that filters interference.
I don't have my system on a rack it's just a PC Feeding my amp, the amp is on a shelf above my work desk and the speakers off to the sides on a shelf. It's probably not the best audiophile way of doing things, but I'm stuck with it for the time being.
Thanks for the tip on the Tacima, the cables will follow.
Rob
I have been amazed at the improvements in sound quality by tweaking the mains.
My ears heard it but my logic says it cannot be such a difference, or any difference at all !
:)
I got a TACIMA SC 5723 Mains Conditioning Plugone on Ebay for £12.
Seemed worth the risk
Worth a punt and staggered I could hear a difference as I already had some Russ Andrews boxes doing the same job
Ok mate
Like I said no rush just drop me a line when your ready
Andy
Arkless Electronics
19-08-2017, 17:18
I wouldn't bother messing with the mains mebob as it will make no difference whatsoever. Many others will tell you differently though....
I wouldn't bother messing with the mains mebob as it will make no difference whatsoever. Many others will tell you differently though....
That was my thought too.
walpurgis
19-08-2017, 17:31
I wouldn't bother messing with the mains mebob as it will make no difference whatsoever. Many others will tell you differently though....
:lolsign:
I've never really bothered with fancy mains blocks or posh mains leads and my system sounds just great.
Made a few moderately hefty screened mains leads. Heard no difference, so I don't bother now.
I personally am not a cable believer but many are. It is the last place I would spend my money as it will make a smaller difference than the components in the chain.
Step 1 is the speakers and their interaction with the room.
Step 2 is an ampifier capable of driving the speakers properly.
Step 3 are source components to your taste.
I agree, step one is to buy speakers that will work in YOUR room. And build backwards, choosing the source components last. Cables and power cords can be upgraded last. You need cables to hook stuff up, but a reasonable pair of Audioquest patch cords will do you until you've got it sorted. And unless you've got some really nasty electricity coming into your house, and some do, power regenerators can come last too. A nice power filter to suppress lightning strikes, like a Furman, isn't a bad idea to protect your investment. Don't get me wrong! I'm not minimizing their value, I'm not saying you shouldn't do these things, but they can wait. Getting the right components matched up is job one. Of course, this is IMHO. To each their own.
But an amp and speakers are no fun without a CD player or record player? When I built my first system, I used cheap stuff to fill out the system, and old DVD player laying around can serve as your source until you get to shopping for that high dollar unit. Same with a record player, a $100 Technics with a $50 cart on it will be great until which time you get around to feeling the itch to upgrade. Or use your computer? (Blasphemy in my house, but I hear a lot of people do it) I set my self an allowance, a certain amount each year I could live with, or without actually, as a guide, sometimes more, sometimes less. 3 or 4 years and you've got the rig of your dreams! Then you start selling those pieces off, and upgrading each of those with pieces that cost twice as much! And you do this forever until you die.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hello Oldius & alphaGT,
Thanks for your reply alphaGT.
"Step 1 is the speakers and their interaction with the room."
My room is 12x12 ft and with painted walls (no wallpaper), it has floor to ceiling heavy curtains with a wood floor, it's probably not ideal with a bit of echo when the volume is up. I have a large rug to put down, that should sort the floor out, but the wall facing the speakers is big and bare, a bit like a sounding board.
Both sets of my speakers are to my liking, but I believe, I won't really know how suitable they are until I sort out Step 2. They might be exposed by a better amp.
"Step 2 is an ampifier capable of driving the speakers properly."
The Marantz (45w) is definitely a trier, that's for sure, but it was instantly noticeable when I listened to the Arcam Alpha 10 (100w) that power makes a difference, allround and especially at lower volume (with extra detail and bass).
"Step 3 are source components to your taste."
My system definitely as I've stated seems a bit bright at times, that might be the source a PC card/ cheap dac and that's why I want to eliminate that problem first with a decent dac preamp.
The system doesn't have any truly good components, I think when I put my first decent one in there it might point out the next one to be replaced?
I have standard OFC 12 guage cables connecting amp and speakers, and OFC shielded interconnects. I'm happy to make do with these until the major bits are sorted out.
alphaGT
I'm liking the ability to type in a search string and have the music instantly there to play at the click of a button when reclined / relaxed and listening I can be a tad lazy. I want to stay on the Flac/MP3 side of things and see how decent I can make it sound with any upgrades. If not I will consider the Vinyl / CD route.
My room is 12x12 ft and with painted walls (no wallpaper), it has floor to ceiling heavy curtains with a wood floor, it's probably not ideal with a bit of echo when the volume is up. I have a large rug to put down, that should sort the floor out, but the wall facing the speakers is big and bare, a bit like a sounding board.
"Step 2 is an ampifier capable of driving the speakers properly."
If not I will consider the Vinyl / CD route.
But vinyl is a two edge sword, not only does it sound better (IMHO) but it also deadens the room if you have a shelf full of the stuff:D
The room is similar size to mine except I have carpet down.
In a room that size I would have thought either of those amplifers had enough watts to drive any speaker unless you like PA sound levels. (I rarely listen above 85db)
Andy
Hello Oldius & alphaGT,
alphaGT
I'm liking the ability to type in a search string and have the music instantly there to play at the click of a button when reclined / relaxed and listening I can be a tad lazy. I want to stay on the Flac/MP3 side of things and see how decent I can make it sound with any upgrades. If not I will consider the Vinyl / CD route.
I kid about the Blasphemy of computers. I'm just stuck in the past, and have a selection of CDs and vinyl to play with. From what I read the state of the art is in computer playback, to get a DAC of high caliber and play high bit rare files is the highest level of playback available today, depending on who you talk to. And the beauty of streaming is like owning every record ever made! Paying a $20 a month fee for music may seem like a lot compared to free FM radio, but that's a poor comparison. It would be very easy to spend more than that buying one vinyl record per month and you'd never achieve the ability to choose from 40 million songs. As some of these streaming companies claim to have. I actually have a college degree in computer sciences and ran the computer department for a $4 billion dollar corporation for 12 years! Maybe that's why I hesitate to join the computer revolution?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
You are welcome to pay me a visit and have a listen . I will happily bring some gear to your house too if it helps give you an idea.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
pgarrish
21-08-2017, 18:10
Im not a million miles away. My kit is pretty modest and I have both low powered valves and a meaty SS amp. You could bring your speakers up as well if you wanted. Im normally in on fridays or possibly over weekend, or even thursday eves. My room is a very different proposition (25 x 35 open plan) and I have 12" Tannoys for a different flavour of speaker too.
Hello Andy,
I can't imagine how much and how long it would take to convert what I have to vinyl, I listen to a lot 60's, 70's , I dread to think how much an original copy of some of my Beatles LPs would be.
As an exercise in sound deadening, the words "prohibitively" and "expensive" come to mind. Maybe I could take down down my mother's finest quality living room curtains and hang them up when she's not looking as cheaper alternative?
I rarely listen to my amp above moderate levels, I'll go loud(ish) occasionally. My room is surprisingly good at moderate volumes, with no echo I can hear.
To my ears the Arcam Alpha 10 easily outperformed the Marantz a lower volume, more bass and detail.
Hello alphaGT
I'm willing try the 0's and 1's route and see how good I can get it.
Although I still have in the region of 20 vinyls at the bottom of a wardrobe, these are the ones my mother failed to find when she gave all my others away (about 70 of them) to charity (without asking me!) when I moved out of the house in my early 20's.
I haven't listen to an Vinyl on a reasonable system for over 25 years? I am curious.
Hello oldius
As I've said in a previous post I do most of my listening up close up at lower volumes, all I really need to do is literally position myself a similar distance to your system and I'll know if it's a bingo moment. Echos and such don't really effect at lower volume levels
You've been so kind in offering the chance to come and hear your system, If there's any traveling to be done or effort to be put in, I'm happy to make the duty mine?
Hello pgarrish,
25 x 35 that sounds like a football stadium!
Thanks for your offer, would you mind if I visited oldius first?
I'm very curious about valves, the last time I came in to contact with them was in my grandparents house, they had a music centre in beautifully varnished wood that had a record player and radio from the 50's.
It was the centre piece of the living room, there were ventilation slits that the tubes could be seen glowing through, I found it mesmerizing as a 6 year old. And it also sounded quite nice to my very young ears too.
I've been doing some research on amps and I'm curious about a few of the more vintage ones?
I've seen a few Quad 405-2 and 606s knocking around and I'm wondering what they sound like?
My Marantz PM6003 is musical and keeps a nice tempo but just a bit bright for my tastes. Would a Quad warm things a little while entertaining and have a nice sound stage?
Thanks
jandl100
22-08-2017, 05:21
Hi Rob
Unlike some of these other guys, I'm a bit far away to do the visit thing (although you would be very welcome to visit me in the lovely Forest of Dean).
But if you are interested in what various types and makes of amp will do I will be happy to loan you my Amptastic Mini-T - it's a class D amp (which may mean little to you, but they have a distinctive sound which appeals to many). It's not much bigger than a stacked pair of cigarette packets and even with its small power supply will fit in a small box that can be sent Royal Mail small packet rate for not much money at all.
I did a review a few years back for the Hifi Pig webzine to give you a better idea. http://hifipig.com/do-good-things-come-in-small-packages-amptastic-mini-t/
I'm happy to send you a loaner if you PM me your full name and address. :)
Hello oldius
As I've said in a previous post I do most of my listening up close up at lower volumes, all I really need to do is literally position myself a similar distance to your system and I'll know if it's a bingo moment. Echos and such don't really effect at lower volume levels
You've been so kind in offering the chance to come and hear your system, If there's any traveling to be done or effort to be put in, I'm happy to make the duty mine?I live by Sefton Park and I am at home most days for the next 2 weeks. I'm sure something can be arranged.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
walpurgis
22-08-2017, 08:38
I've been doing some research on amps and I'm curious about a few of the more vintage ones?
I've seen a few Quad 405-2 and 606s knocking around and I'm wondering what they sound like?
My Marantz PM6003 is musical and keeps a nice tempo but just a bit bright for my tastes. Would a Quad warm things a little while entertaining and have a nice sound stage?
Thanks
If you are looking at Quad amps, don't forget the little 306. It's a very nice sounding unit with a decent 50 watts. And works well with a passive pre-amp, if need be.
'Warm' sounding amps? I dare say a NAD 3020, Cambridge A60 or Audiolab 8000 might fit the bill. They certainly aren't bright. Same with the Quad 303 power amp. They each have their following.
Personally, I regard them as a bit dull and prefer a more lucid sound. The clearer the better, but I don't mean bright or forward.
Hello jandl100,
Yes please, I've nothing to lose except maybe the cost of a couple of pints down at my local. Thanks.
I have to admiit though I'm struggling to get my head around how something so small can compete with a full sized amp. Maybe I'm under estimating what a talented engineer can do with modern electronics?
Thanks for the kind offer of a visit, but sadly it's a bit too far. There would have been two reasons to visit your beautiful part of the world, the first to meet you and listen to your Hifi and the second to bring a pair of binoculars and look up at the night sky to behold the Milky Way. Something that is an impossibility here in Liverpool.
I'll send you a message to sort out the details and postage costs.
oldius,
I'll message you later on, I'm not too far away from you.
walpurgis
It just goes to show how people have different ears.
I regard my Marantz PM6003 as neutral tending towards slight brightness, others have described it as warm.
You've described the Quad sound as 'dull', others as warm and detailed with excellent soundstage. I've seen one cheaply on ebay and was about to pull the trigger, but have backed off for now.
The different opinions can be a bit confusing I guess we all hear differently and the audition is all important?
walpurgis
22-08-2017, 13:55
It's just the 303 I find a bit too 'cuddly' in nature (same goes for the 34 pre-amp). Other Quad amps are better to my ears and certainly not dull.
MikeMusic
22-08-2017, 15:10
Listen to what everyone says then listen to the kit and what your ears tell you.
Improving the mains is a huge step up. I was highly sceptical until I tried it
Try that Tacima in an unswitched socket for the best results.
Very happy to entertain you at my place but the distance is a bit much, unless you are going to Heathrow sometime, about 10 miles away.
My advice would also be to listen a lot before buying. There's little point for example buying a new amplifier when new speakers are on the horizon.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Idlewithnodrive
22-08-2017, 21:10
I wouldn't bother messing with the mains mebob as it will make no difference whatsoever. Many others will tell you differently though....
Absolutely same as this. Same with cables tbh. A lot more gain to be made elsewhere.
Idlewithnodrive
22-08-2017, 21:11
I personally am not a cable believer but many are. It is the last place I would spend my money as it will make a smaller difference than the components in the chain.
Step 1 is the speakers and their interaction with the room.
Step 2 is an ampifier capable of driving the speakers properly.
Step 3 are source components to your taste.
Agree 100% with young Geoff.
Idlewithnodrive
22-08-2017, 21:25
Hi meBob,
First, welcome aboard Sir :)
Second, take advantage of all the guys kind invites to listen to different kit, it'll give you a good idea of different flavours of presentation.
Thirdly, rather than burning around the country, how about inviting some of the old lags to a bake off (where people visit your house, eat your pork, cakes and pies and drink your beer, all in exchange for a bit od advice and bringing their kit to your house to listen to) ?
Great fun, you'll get to put faces to names and listen to loads of kit in your environment. Loads of birds killed with one stone :)
Don't forget your local Brick and mortar audio salons, another resource to listen and compare. Many sell used gear these days, trade ins on their new gear. No matter your field of interest, personal experience is the way to go. Listen to friend's systems, have them bring gear to your house, and stop by the salon, all very educational and much better than just reading about it. But reading doesn't hurt either. It sounds like you've got many resources available to you! That's very lucky!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Zoidburg
24-08-2017, 17:47
I've a young dac and dedicated power supply I'd be happy to bring round to plug into your system to see what you think if that's of interest? It's fairly well regarded unit and would have set you back about a grand new (though obviously a lot less now on the used market) but would give you a very good idea of what could be achieved over and above your pc sound card.
Hello Idlewithnodrive,
I Apologise for the lateness of this reply, I've been run ragged the last 3 days.
I will leave any potential cable changes until last of all.
Bake offs, at the moment there's some very time/resource consuming children/babies in the house, I'm tripping over nappies and toys everywhere and I'm having to listen to my system at lower watts most of the time. The logistics of moving them out of the house, while we have what would be viewed as a "music party" by the females in my life, might create a resentment that I'd have to do some work to overcome.
A few years back when I had the place to myself I'd have had you all here with beer in hand in the living room for a hifi fest. It makes absolute sense to kill many birds with one stone. By the looks of things I'd have had the entire range from SS to tubes, speaker, preamps and dacs. Circumstances have conspired against me.
Thanks for your warm welcome.
Hello alphaGT
I Apologise for the lateness of this reply, I've been run ragged the last 3 days.
Strangely, we only have one where I live (that I know of), it's called Richersound. It's probably the equivalent to Hifi as what McDonanlds is to dining out!
We have a one or two other more "upmarket" (I believe you say "upscale" in the States?) on the edges of the city. I had a look at their websites and they seem very niche, what the offer they offer (just a few brands). What I was interested in they didn't have and would have to order in.
Manchester has a few more I might have a day out there and try them.
I think the salon experience is more of London thing, I might be wrong though?
Hello ZoidBurg
I Apologise for the lateness of this reply, I've been run ragged the last 3 days.
Things are up in the air at the moment with my kit, the zensor speakers I have are at the end of their run in period and are re-boxed and going onto fleabay. Over the 3 weeks I've been listening to them, I've grown used to them, but there was always something not right about them.
I took my old Mission 751f's down from the loft and reconnected them, instantly I could hear what was wrong, the Zensors have a hole where the mids should be and the treble seems almost forced. Listening to Sinatra - My Way, his voice stands out/shines and is emotional with Missions, whereas with the Zensors it's recessed and and treble heavy.
The missions are not without their problems, they lack bass (the reason I bought the Zensors) and maybe just bright sometimes.
oldius said:
"Step 1 is the speakers and their interaction with the room.
Step 2 is an amplifier capable of driving the speakers properly.
Step 3 are source components to your taste. "
Jandl100 kindly loaned his Amptastic mini-t amp and the results when paired with my Zensors were the same as with the marantz amp, no mids and forced treble. When paired with the Missions, there was an improvement, just like with the Marantz.
This to me indicates oldius was correct in his steps stated above (although I couldn't see it at the time), It's the speaker where I need to improve first, then the source and amp can shine through.
If we do an audition/demo with the young dac now, it will probably sound completely different to a system with new speakers and maybe amp, when I get them in place, it's probably best to test the dac when my system is settled?
Hello Jandl100,
I've had a decent listen to the Amptastic mini-t.
I connected it up to the Mission 751f's and put the volume at the 9.30 position, looking at the size of the thing I thought that's about right, rapidly it was dialed down to 8 o'clock. It sounds similarly powerful to my Marantz PM6003 (45w p/ch). It had no issues driving both my sets of speakers and retained composure at higher volumes.
Sound wise it's hard to believe the noise that comes out of it, is what it is? A smooth sound, detailed with a good stereo image and a nice tempo to it. It's not too far in sound away from the Marantz I have, but with slightly more detail and tempo/timing, but less bass than the Marantz. Overall I'd have to say it betters Marantz, the difference isn't massive, but it's there.
I did some (sad) calculations and the amptastic is 28 times smaller than the Marantz it's now sitting on top of??
jandl100
27-08-2017, 19:12
Hi Rob
So the Mini-T beat the Marantz amp by a worthwhile but not huge margin?
Well, tbh I'm quite surprised that the Marantz is that good!
I wouldn't get too hung up on the Mini-T being a lot smaller than the Marantz - class D amplification is a lot more efficient than class AB so there is a lot less heat to dissipate, and you'll probably find that the Marantz chassis is mostly empty space anyway!
The new version of the Mini-T is called the Mini-1 and the only difference that I can hear is that the bass end is freer and more extended dynamically, but not really more in quantity most of the time.
If you want a less bright amp then I can recommend you try class D amps similar in principle to the Mini-T but using the TA2021 and TA2022 chipsets.
There's never been anything shabby about Marantz to my knowledge, so an amp that beats it is great! Class D amps have come a very long way in recent years, constant improvement on that front. But, from what you say about all the young ones underfoot, seems you should ditch the whole setup and get a nice headphone amp, and some headphones! Go hide in the den in silence. Although, I never did. My daughter got very used to sleeping while the stereo played on!
There are some upscale audio salons in the larger cities here in the States, but in Richmond VA, near where I live, there are a few shops as you describe. But one, I'll plug now, Audio Art, in Richmond, has a great selection of new and used gear. Too bad there isn't such a place within a reasonable distance from you. I've learned a lot there, and have only been there a few times since the late '80's. but it a very dangerous place, the things I've seen there have caused me to spend a lot of money! Perhaps if I had never seen it, I'd be happier with much less?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hello All,
Firstly, I'd like one day to be able to spell absorbtion (absorption) properly.
I was giving some thought what oldius said:
"Step 1 is the speakers and their interaction with the room."
I clapped my hands in the room where my setup is and listened for an echo, I've already done this before when I moved the system into the room and at the time thought everything was ok. I heard what I thought was a weak echo, but this time decided to test it. With drawing pins, I pinned a blanket on to the wall directly facing the speakers, there was a noticeable difference in SQ, especially the bass which seemed more controlled and focused.
Turning the volume up to 9.30 usually within orchestral crescendos produces a slightly bright confused sound where detail suffers, With the blanket up it seemed easier on the ears. I've also yet to put a rug on the wood floor.
I'm now looking into a more permanent solution to that wall.
Thanks to Geoff (oldius) and everyone else who emphasized the importance of this point.
Hello jandl100,
It begs the question, if an amp can be made that small and perform as well as it does, where will things be in 30 years, bringing match boxed or even sugar cube sized amps to bake offs?
I'd be happy to look at any recommendations you make.
I've done post on this thread entitled "Sound absorption".
Basically, I want to now sort out the room acoustics (as best as I can) and maybe new speakers before a new amp.
Hello alphaGT
I've tried headphones in the past, but I just can't seem to sit wearing them and listen for any extended periods like I can with speakers. It's a pity, It would have solved a few problems and been cheaper.
We're together using words like "Upscale" and phrases like "spend a lot of money!" - ouch!, I'm starting to feel faint and a nose bleed coming on.
I have a feeling though maybe to get what I want I might have to "suck it up" and spend some of my hard earned!
Rob (meBob) visited last night and listened to three sets of speakers driven by two different amps.
I really enjoyed it and I'll be taking a couple of amps and some speakers to see what best suits his ears and room soon.
The biggest surprise, for him, is that forty year old gear can sound quite good!
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Zoidburg
30-08-2017, 08:56
Rob (meBob) visited last night and listened to three sets of speakers driven by two different amps.
I really enjoyed it and I'll be taking a couple of amps and some speakers to see what best suits his ears and room soon.
The biggest surprise, for him, is that forty year old gear can sound quite good!
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
Nice one Geoff, be interesting to hear Robs thoughts now and where he sees his system going.
Excellent news Geoff, this is exactly what he needed I think.
Agree with Ben it would be good to gauge Robs impressions first hand if he has the time to reply to the thread.
I felt Rob needed to just listen to some other gear and see what kind of sound he preferred, so we had a Japanese studio monitor, an American studio monitor, and a traditional BBC style loudspeaker. We listened to a large, powerful pre-power and an integrated amp using digital sources as that's what Bob uses. Based on his comments, he much prefers a warm sound and is very sensitive to an 'etched' treble. My suggestion is that he now experiences a comparison between some speakers in his own room with his own amplifier to see if he actually likes the sound of his own speakers.
He currently takes a feed from a PC sound card but I have no experience of that so he may need further advice once his 'rear end' is sorted!
Hello Geoff,
Thanks again for the listen and a very pleasant evening with yourself and Burt!
"The biggest surprise, for him, is that forty year old gear can sound quite good!".
Slightly understated there Geoff, I'd say "can sound superbly good!" myself!
Hello All,
A few thoughts and observations on my visit to Geoff's (oldius) last night.........
With my own system I sit facing two shoe box sized speakers and a single amp, sitting myself down and facing Geoff's JBL control speakers was quite a different experience, relatively they look like behemoths compared to mine, looking at them and the much larger size of the room they were situated in, I came to the conclusion this will be a very different sound to what I'm used to! To the side there is an impressive array of kit that feeds the speakers, my curiosity was peaked.
The music began (and the HiFi experience!), at first I wasn't able to sit back in a foot tapping mode and allow the music to wash over me, there was just too much information being delivered with a power and authority way beyond my own system. I can't remember the name of the artist in the first piece played (Geoff?), it was a live/acoustic piece, with the instruments creating a deep ambience in the background and artist's soulful and emotional voice leading the way. The depth of detail was so good that I could pick out individual guitar strings within chords, cymbals fully articulated and there was fully floated 3D effect with complete separation of instruments and voices.
For the first forty minutes or so, I was fixating on details and nuances within the music itself and not paying enough attention to the piece as a whole. I did after a while start to appreciate the larger picture and move into that foot tapping mode.
For the first setup Geoff demo'ed, he's used the word 'etched' to describe my appreciation of the system, I never found the system in anyway offensively bright or unlistenable. I think it was a case of information overload, the sheer amount and quality of the information reaching my uneducated ears then challenged my single core processor (of a brain) to make any sense of it. I'm basically just not used to that much quality (caviar for the ears?).
The second system Lentek/JBL wasn't too far away from the first one, but was an easier listen for me, less in depth analysis, but nevertheless there was copious amounts of detail in there, just delivered in a slightly different way.
The third system, vintage KEF Reference/Lentek combination was quite a bump from the previous two, compared to the other two, in the first few minutes or so it actually sounded quite dull, then after a few tracks suddenly came to life for me. It's a completely different presentation to the Lentek going through Yamaha/JBL setups, a much warmer and I thought musical presentation, with some foot tapping going on. There was still detail, but just not to the fore.
I will describe last night's session as an enjoyable eye and ear opener. If I've learnt anything from it, it's that I should have the right speakers in place before I spend elsewhere, the difference of the third system to the previous two highlights how much of an effect speakers can have on a system. I've also learnt I shouldn't be frightened of vintage kit!
Hello Geoff,
Thanks again for the listen and a very pleasant evening with yourself and Burt!
"The biggest surprise, for him, is that forty year old gear can sound quite good!".
Slightly understated there Geoff, I'd say "can sound superbly good!" myself!Hopefully it helped. Thanks for the compliment.
Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk
The system you seemed to enjoy the most was a traditional BBC style. There will be many experienced voices here who would be able to point you in the direction of similarly voiced speakers to the Kef Reference 103 that you heard. I would have thought that, within your budget, speakers from companies like Kef, Ruark and Castle would give you the sound that you enjoy.
Perhaps recommendations for similarly voiced bookshelf designs could begin here.
Geoff,
Yes it all helped.
And I have to add to the list of things I've learnt, simply that I've now experienced a top notch HiFi and now have a benchmark to work from (that's not of the Richersound variety).
Slightly warmer seems to be where I can do the longer listening sessions, but I wouln't want to lose too much detail in the the pursuit of easy listening. There's probably a compromise or line of best fit to be accepted at some point.
Hello Zoidburg & Andy831,
Where does my system go from here?
I've been playing about with large towels and blankets, pinning them to my walls in different positions etc, the room looks quite a sight. To my ears though there is an improvement, I feel the bass has improved and in general it just seems clearer at higher volume levels.
I will be doing a permanent DIY replacement very soon, something with a bit more class.
With the room's acoustics more helpful to my system, I'll take Geoff's recommendation and either try different speakers with my amp or a different amp with my speakers, I think at point I'll have a decent idea how my speakers and amp rate and where I'm going.
A slight nudge to the warm (and some detail) would be nice.
It sounds like you've had a few positive experiences! It's great that Geoff was able to expose you to so much variety. And now you can see what quality products properly matched can achieve. And seems you've made a few friends in the process? I've always been a lone wolf of audio, among my friends and acquaintances, none are into high end stereo. A few fellow musicians have some Japanese gear that does quite well really, but still sets firmly in the mid fi camp.
But your experiences remind me much of my own, going and listening to proper systems that placed musicians right in the room! And I have spend many years, and much money, trying to duplicate their success. And the comment about old gear, yes it's very true. Those holographic presentations I experienced back in the mid '80's, and all of this new and far more expensive gear has not impressed me any more than what I heard back then. We certainly weren't listening to crap back then! Sure there are a few areas where science has moved forward, but speaker design, and amp design have not surpassed what was possible way back then. And now I can afford that ultra high priced stuff from the '80's! On the used market.
And your experiments in room treatments are most enlightening! I just hung a wall hanging quilt on the wall directly behind the listening seat, in my listening room. I haven't scrutinized it a lot, but it does seem to help tame both booming and ringing just a bit.
But I've never owned a stereo thinking, "This is the last one I'll ever need". It has always fallen slightly short of my hopes and dreams, and while I may love my present stereo and play it often. The idea that I could do better lingers in the back of my mind. So, we keep tweaking and trading up, and gaining ground in small to tiny increments, and my system evolves. Oh I may think I'm there! Then visit somewhere like Geoff's and suddenly I'm in the mood to upgrade. That feeling you have now. That idea that what you've heard is better than what you own, and you want to move toward that better sound, for some of us that sensation never goes away, and there in lies the difference between being a Hi fi nut, and having Audiophilia. The later being a mental disorder of sorts. Somewhere between lust and paranoia, the urge to upgrade never goes away. But either way, it sounds like you are well on your way to the Hi End!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hello Zoidburg & Andy831,
Where does my system go from here?
A slight nudge to the warm (and some detail) would be nice.
Keep your wallet firmly closed for now and keep listening to as many different systems you can, until you have a firm understanding of what your trying to achieve. Beg and borrow as much kit as you can to try out in your own room with the kit you already own, but keep the wallet shut for now! the time will come soon enough when your wallet is permanently empty and your scratting around wondering what you can sell to fund the next upgrade. :D
Andy
Rob
Are your speakers positioned on a shelf or on stands? You never mentioned stands on your introduction of your system. If its the former, do you have space to try them on stands?
I have a spare set of stands you can have, which will give you an idea of what using speakers on a stand brings to the party.
Andy
Hello alphaGT
Yes it was a positive experience at Geoff's.
Firstly, I was exposed to what 'Quality sound' is. The change over to Kef reference speakers but still using the same amp, surprised me how differently the system sounded compared to the previous two sets of speakers, this rammed home that I really need to start listening to what's being said.
I've mentioned that I had a little bit of a brightness problem and I spent time reading on the What Hifi site about the latest amps and speakers and very nearly pulled the trigger on the Rega Elex r amp (£1000), it had five stars and was well reviewed. There was a little voice in my head asked the question what if it's not the amp? What if it's the source? I then started looking at DACS and the Beresford that was heavily linked to this site and came close to buying that.
Basically, I had to admit to myself I'm clueless where the problem is, seen this site and there does seem to be more than one or two knowledgeable and helpful people on this site and here I am!
The absorption treatment with my room, has I feel improved things, but it's just a few blankets and a towel. I have a more permanent solution in mind and it will be cheap at about £40 and I think look OK (I'm not to bad with DIY). I'll get this done as soon as possible, the room looks ridiculous with blankets and towels hanging up. There's a link below to what I'll do, there's almost a comedy element to this video, but it's worth watching all the way through, the science he's using is reasonable and he does a comparison at the end with professional studio foam.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pABvTWSxOes
"But I've never owned a stereo thinking, "This is the last one I'll ever need""
I'm at the budget end an I've had 3 amps and 4 sets of speakers! This could become addictive when the sound gets better?
Andy831,
The wallet will stay closed, that trip to Geoff's has given me some direction.
One of my speakers is on a shelf and the other is on top of an old broken technics amp which is on top of set of draws. The placements is not ideal and I suspect there maybe a few on this site grimacing when they read of this.
To accommodate stands it would mean a radical rearrangement of furniture. Also I often sit at a desk with the speakers at the right height and position for listening whilst at that desk, stands would have to go to the sides of the desk and would be probably too low. This would probably adversly effect the path of sound waves (I feel?).
There's also the extremely curious and sticky fingered 5 year old boy we have in the house, I'd fully expect to hear thud at some point and I'd immediately know what that thud was.
I do feel I'm missing something by not having stands, especially now that I've listened to Geoff's hifi.
I'm very grateful for the offer, but I just can't see how I would accommodate them?
Hello All,
I’ve been wanting to do some follow up on my system blog for some time but have not been in a position to actually do it, due to a couple of comical and completely unwanted events that happened to me.
I very badly twisted my ankle while jogging and suffered some ligament damage, the hospital recommended to keep my weight off it for 2 weeks and some physio. That didn’t seem so bad, I settled down to 2 weeks of TV, movies and music and treated it like holiday.
Here’s where the fun really starts...
At the end of the two weeks with my ankle usable again, I had work around the house to do, I had a completely overgrown large back garden, it hadn’t been mowed for a couple of weeks before my ankle and now with 1 months summer growth, I got the mower out. While out there I attended to a tree root that was pushing up a patio paving flag or at least I tried to. Bent over levered the flag up, grabbed hold of it and that was the end of my efforts, my first ever slipped disc said hello (and the last I hope).
I can only presume my body had stiffened up after doing absolutely nothing for 2 weeks?
I’ve never been out of action for so long and I have to say the last 5 weeks have been something of a bottomless pit of self pity, I’m self employed and have watched nearly 2 months income float down stream past me. I have not been in a very communicative frame of mind.
I certainly though, don’t want to take the knowledge and help of others without putting something into the pot myself. And now that I’m moving in the right direction again and have made some big changes to my kit, I’ll do a post on this very shortly.
Rob
walpurgis
22-11-2017, 19:35
Tough luck there Rob. Hope you're fit soon! :thumbsup:
Bad news Rob. I was in a similar situation years ago with a busted knee. Laid up and no money coming in. Not an easy time.
Anyway look forward to hearing about what you've been up to.
Hello Walpurgis & Macca,
Thanks for your concern.
I’m just about off my addiction to Ibuprofen and moving around reasonably normally again and still asking the question “why me?”. It’s not as if I’ve just attempted to climb the north face of the Eiger where these dangers are regarded as occupational hazards.
All I did was go for a jog, do a spot of gardening and then ended up hospitalised for my troubles.
Oh hell I’m grumbling again, I'll move on!
YO.......
:worthless:
A Gallery thread (and bake-offs within that) without ANY pics? Come on, guys! Rob, get yer camera out mate, and let's see some pics of you gear - ta! :cool:
Marco.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.