View Full Version : New speakers - masses of boomy bass
Mikeandvan
16-08-2017, 22:09
Just gone from Ruark Templar to Talisman II, and the bass is somewhat out of control, very boomy and masking the other frequencies, with bass heavy music anyway. Appreciate the finer details and general increase in quality the Talisman bring over the Templar, but is there anyway to tame the bass? I live in a 1st floor flat, so suspended floorboards, as yet I haven't tried anything like stone slabs, for now the Talisman just sit straight on the floor as they seem to have different size holes for the spikes to the Templars, so will need to get some new spikes to try that. Room is sort of L shape - well not so narrow, but lounge with kitchen off lounge in same room and carpeted. I suppose filling the front ports would foam would dampen the bass a lot? Any thing else to try before I go back to stand mounts?
Ta.
walpurgis
16-08-2017, 22:17
That's a shame Mike. I think things may improve with decent spikes fitted. You could also try some port bungs, most dealers can supply these and there'll be some on ebay. Getting the speakers off the floor altogether might be worth trying as well, short stands are available.
Lawrence001
16-08-2017, 23:06
Stuff a sock in each port before you try anything else! Make them ball shaped if you have to for a reasonably tight fit.
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I'm very interested in how this turns out, I too have a LOT of bass to deal with. Legacy Focus, huge speakers, they can deliver the bass. It's seems more of an issue on certain inputs, FM is real bassy.
Pulling them into the room helped, but living in the real world we can't get 10 feet behind our speakers like rich folks do. But, if I can get 2/3'd to a meter behind them helps. Of course store bought tube traps, and bass traps were made especially for this problem, and while quite expensive, not hard to make your own. Some super expensive store bought ones I discovered were just ceiling tiles wrapped in burlap. I plan to take some plain ceiling tiles and place on the wall behind my speakers just as a test. If it works, I'll find some speaker grill cloth to cover them with.
Floor spikes can tame boomy bass, and tighten it up considerably, but in my experience, it won't lessen the bass. Of course tighter is better than boomy any day.
Remember when we could just grab the bass knob on the receiver and adjust it? Are we really that much happier now that tone shaping circuits have been removed from our gear? One less vail, we've given up control of our systems for the last word in transparency. Forgive me, I waxed nostalgic for a moment!
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When I had Talisman 2s the bottom of the speaker was filled with kiln dried sand. I believed this tamed the bass but have not verified this with any other Talisman owners, I seem to remember someone saying it made no difference to them.
If the bass is annoying the neighbours below then you need to decouple the speakers from the floor. If you couple them with spikes then you will just transmit clearer bass down to your neighbours. Lots of threads about decoupling speakers but if you search Townshend seismic speaker mounts on google or u-tube then that is a good place to start reading about the science of sound transmission.
Mikeandvan
17-08-2017, 07:45
If the bass is annoying the neighbours below then you need to decouple the speakers from the floor. If you couple them with spikes then you will just transmit clearer bass down to your neighbours. Lots of threads about decoupling speakers but if you search Townshend seismic speaker mounts on google or u-tube then that is a good place to start reading about the science of sound transmission.
No neighbours below (or above) as my flat is a maisonette, except my dog when she's gone to bed of course!
Mikeandvan
17-08-2017, 07:47
Thanks to all replies, which try bungs ( or socks) in the ports fist, these are lovely looking speakers by the way, Talisman II, in cherry I think. My old Templars were M5 spikes I think, I guess these Talisman will be M6? Is it worth trying a couple of concrete slabs on the floor?
Slabs might help but I doubt it and I'd avoid the socks/bungs. Try thinner speaker cable first.
spendorman
17-08-2017, 08:19
Slabs might help but I doubt it and I'd avoid the socks/bungs. Try thinner speaker cable first.
I would have thought that thinner speaker cable, if it had any audible effect, of ever so slightly, increasing the amount of boomy bass. The thinner cable will have a very slightly higher resistance, therefore decreasing the effective damping factor of the system, hence if detectable, more boomy bass.
walpurgis
17-08-2017, 08:45
Is it worth trying a couple of concrete slabs on the floor?
That can help, but don't place speakers directly on slabs, as concrete tends to contain residual moisture which can damage woodwork (and also floors).
walpurgis
17-08-2017, 08:48
I would have thought that thinner speaker cable, if it had any audible effect, of ever so slightly, increasing the amount of boomy bass. The thinner cable will have a very slightly higher resistance, therefore decreasing the effective damping factor of the system, hence if detectable, more boomy bass.
That was my thought too. Although the effect is probably minimal with the average run of cable.
Instead of thinner wire, perhaps the same thing could be achieved in greater amounts by adding a resister to the crossover? Even outside, in line with the wire?
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walpurgis
17-08-2017, 09:26
Instead of thinner wire, perhaps the same thing could be achieved in greater amounts by adding a resister to the crossover? Even outside, in line with the wire?
That would probably achieve something similar. The damping factor could be reduced leading to boomier bass.
I would have thought that thinner speaker cable, if it had any audible effect, of ever so slightly, increasing the amount of boomy bass. The thinner cable will have a very slightly higher resistance, therefore decreasing the effective damping factor of the system, hence if detectable, more boomy bass.
On paper maybe so. In practice I have found using thinner cable emphasises the mid and top over the bass, thicker cable to be the opposite. From a subjective listening point of view of course. But that's what matters after all.
If the problem is lack of control in the bass that needs to be addressed via the power amp. Some can create a whole load of sludge at the bottom end that sounds like lots of bass initially but is actually just distortion. The better the power amp, the cleaner the bass sounds.
Some rooms just dont like big bass speakers imv. Ive had trouble with bass being a tad over what i like(accepted i dont like a lot) thought it was speakers etc and to an extent it was but the room was mostly to blame, and ive got concrete floors. Personally i think its the gap betweem plasterboard and brick thats the cause plus the chimney
prestonchipfryer
17-08-2017, 14:47
I used the original Talismans for a number of years and indeed the space at the base of the speakers I filled with sand. Found that about three-quarters filling did the trick of banishing any excessive bass. Mine were used with a concrete floor though. Used with a Quad 606/34.
jandl100
17-08-2017, 16:22
Socks.
Absolutely the socks.
Try various density bungs to tune the bass to how you like it.
Even a loosely filled port can work wonders.
walpurgis
17-08-2017, 16:29
Socks. Absolutely the socks.
Any particular colour? ;)
jandl100
17-08-2017, 16:35
Pink, with emerald green stripes :thumbsup:
Sounds like the speakers put out more bass than the room can handle, stuffing the ports with socks or something might work. Fast and easy to try and nothing to loose. Also finding just the right spot(s) for the speakers can help a lot, mainly distance from the wall behind them. The reflections from the wall will boost certain frequencies and cancel some others as the reflection is 180 degrees out of phase from the sound coming from the speaker. If your placement is boosting a frequency which already has a nasty room mode then things go very bad very fast.
Also doing 'something' about the speaker/floor interface can be important if the floor is boosting the bass. I have very springy wooden floors and placing speakers directly on them is a recipe for disaster - but decoupling the speakers with something too springy while helping with the bass messed up other things. After some experimenting I now have the hockey pucks (for some little decoupling) under 3 concrete slabs (weighing about 50kg in total I guess) on top of which the speakers rest. It did help quite a bit.
Arkless Electronics
17-08-2017, 19:26
The first and IMHO most important thing to do should be to try them in different positions! Further from wall for a start but sometimes a room will sound vastly more boomy with the speakers firing down one axis compared to another...
I agree that thin speaker wire is not the way to go!
Beware of concrete slabs as IME they can make some speakers sound awful by either resonating, or reflecting, vibration back up to the speaker.... I didn't experiment much but it seemed apparent that one of these scenarios was going on. I guess suitable lossy material betwixt speakers and concrete should cure this but I haven't tried it.
jandl100
17-08-2017, 19:37
Beware of concrete slabs as IME they can make some speakers sound awful by either resonating, or reflecting, vibration back up to the speaker.... I didn't experiment much but it seemed apparent that one of these scenarios was going on. .
That is my experience with concrete slabs under speakers - a sonic disaster. They muddle up the sound. A bit like hitting your head against a wall - wonderful when you take them away!
Mikeandvan
17-08-2017, 19:51
OK, the bottom of the speakers do have a space which is totally empty at the moment, so that's something I could try, the hole to access this about an inch in diameter though, guess you have to pour sand in through a funnel, this space is sealed off from the rest of the speaker, so no fear of sand getting into the electronics! I read somewhere else that Ruark suppliers - when they were selling these - would have small bags of sand to place in these cavities. I am able to pull the speakers out about 3ft into my room without them being in the way, but that's all, the room is 14ft wide by 20 ft long at its longest point, the kitchen takes up 9 ft of the length, its 3ft longer than the main lounge, which is 17ft long, hope that makes sense, but my lounge (listening) area is 14ft by 11ft, so its oblong, then it narrows by 3ft to the door, I can only place my speakers along the 11ft wall due to a Juliet balcony along the 14ft wall. So, few things to try, at present my turntable is out of action, due to needing an armboard, NAS are being very helpful with this, so should be back in operation with a few weeks, as I find listening to cd through my naim 72/140/teddycap set up somewhat harsher than vinyl. So once back to vinyl, the bass should be reduced. Saying that I was using Epos es11 up until a few months ago and I even preferred those with the bungs in to tame the bass! The height of my room is 7.5ft, so not too high.
Seal the sand in plastic bags and push them through. Don't use loose sand.
jandl100
17-08-2017, 20:56
I'd do the sand thing as a last resort, if that.
It'll be a bastard to get out if you don't like the result!
If you cant find socks then knickers might be more revealing :eyebrows:
Mikeandvan
17-08-2017, 21:59
I'd do the sand thing as a last resort, if that.
It'll be a bastard to get out if you don't like the result!
A quick web search reveals 'lead shot put into tights', the tights can be retrieved as some material can be left out of the hole! But are you supposed to put the plastic stopper back in? Worth a try I think.
I bought a pair of slate slabs to reduce movement of my ESS speakers under bass excursion.
Skeptical, I obtained a money back guarantee, and for the attenuation of reflected energy I bought some EPDM 10mm rubber sheet, which seems to work well.
I bought a pair of slate slabs to reduce movement of my ESS speakers under bass excursion.
Skeptical, I obtained a money back guarantee, and for the attenuation of reflected energy I bought some EPDM 10mm rubber sheet, which seems to work well.
Rubber sheets? Sounds kinky! But seriously, how much did that set you back? That may prove a better option than old ceiling tiles.
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Minstrel SE
18-08-2017, 06:57
I have a couple of concrete slabs and rest the spikes on the concrete. I then finely adjust the spikes and tighten the locknuts until its very stable on there. I like what the slabs do and it does tighten things up. It does isolate the speakers enough from a suspended wooden floor.
Its not a massive difference as they were never boomy to start with. I was thinking that wooden floorboards isnt going to add qualities and I am right. Im listening to more of the speaker in isolation and it pleases me. Its depends what speakers you have but for a few quid per slab its worth a try. You can always use the slabs to prop up your barbecue outside
I made some fabric covered frames for the slabs and it looks very good
rigger67
18-08-2017, 08:48
I bought some EPDM 10mm rubber sheet
I went for the WNA version - I always preferred Dre over Sermon ;)
Mikeandvan
23-08-2017, 20:31
Think I might be wasting my time with big or even medium speakers in my flat, I used to have Espos es11 and they sounded good, but I wanted something a little bit more lush, warmer, and slightly more detailed if possible. I tried Ruark Templar, then the Talisman, Talisman are clearly in a better league detail/quality wise, but in my room they sound pretty harsh. Can I have recommendations for small speakers please? As I said I liked the Epos, but then I liked the Templar as I found them slightly warmer, but would like something a bit of step up. System is Naim 140(Avondale minicapped), 72, teddycap. NAS TT and Sony cdp. Was think Neat motive, but then read somewhere they can be bright, which is what I don't want. Spend upto £500 (used).
Mike, IME harshness isn't going to be caused by the speakers unless they are damaged. Seems more like a classic case of the better speaker is revealing problems up the chain. From what you've said anyway.
walpurgis
23-08-2017, 21:15
Mike, IME harshness isn't going to be caused by the speakers unless they are damaged. Seems more like a classic case of the better speaker is revealing problems up the chain. From what you've said anyway.
Yeah, Could be.
Mikeandvan
24-08-2017, 07:09
May'be harshness is the wrong word, sort of forcedness to the sound. Both amps recently serviced, various TTs and cdps used, so I don't see where any issues would lie.
Impossible to diagnose from a distance. But something ain't right and I'd lay money it isn't the speakers.
jandl100
24-08-2017, 07:23
I've no idea what a Naim 140 amp sounds like, but some of the older Naim amps can be quite bright and forced sounding (A horrible experience with a Nait3 comes to mind).
Maybe try a different amp?
Something with valves in - or a TA2022 chip amp maybe. Both can give smoother sounds.
stonehenge
24-08-2017, 10:44
ES 14?
Harbeth HL-K6
Spendor S3e's
B&W DM4's
A 14x20 ft room is not small, you should be able to use some floor standers that don't get too large without having a booming bass or harsh high end? Perhaps you just have amp and speakers that are not well suited for each other? Hey, it happens! If there is any way you could borrow an amp, of any other make to see what happens, I think will be an eye opening experience. Some amps do lean to the bright side, I recall a lifetime ago someone I knew had a Harmon Cardon that was ear splitting! He didn't seem to notice? But anyway, some experimenting is in order before we can lay blame to anything. Is there any way to try a different amp?
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Mikeandvan
08-09-2017, 20:48
I should add that this problem wasn't as bad when I had the Epos es11. I'm now considering Spendor S3 or AVI Nuneutron, any experience with these and a olive Naim set up? MY amp system is nac72/140 (with Avondale minicap)/Teddycap.
walpurgis
08-09-2017, 21:20
Have you considered the Totem Arro Mike? They're nice sounding little things and don't boom.
Mikeandvan
08-09-2017, 22:12
I was thinking stand mounts, in the belief this would stop boomy bass, or is that very ignorant? Can anyone tell me whether my 140 (has the Avondale minicap upgrade) would be enough to drive the SPendor s3/5r? I have a Teddycap to power my 72.
I was thinking stand mounts, in the belief this would stop boomy bass, or is that very ignorant? Can anyone tell me whether my 140 (has the Avondale minicap upgrade) would be enough to drive the SPendor s3/5r? I have a Teddycap to power my 72.
An easy load but low sensitivity (81db) so depends on what levels you want to play at and how far from the speakers you sit. Bass is already down 6 db at 76hz so there will be no deep bass to cause any room issues. At the same time this might mean the speakers will sound 'small'.
just an idea mike,i had ditton 66's and the bass tended to be boomy if sat straight on the floor,i made some mana sound bases for them and that tighten up the bass a lot.
walpurgis
09-09-2017, 09:20
An easy load but low sensitivity (81db)
That is very low. Gonna need some power to get those cones moving usefully to room filling levels.
Mikeandvan
09-09-2017, 19:43
Thanks everyone, some useful info, even though I've owned Naim kit for a while, I'm still very ignorant on hifi technical terms!
PhilofCas
10-09-2017, 21:16
I was thinking stand mounts, in the belief this would stop boomy bass, or is that very ignorant? Can anyone tell me whether my 140 (has the Avondale minicap upgrade) would be enough to drive the SPendor s3/5r? I have a Teddycap to power my 72.
Hi Mike, I run mine ('2 version) with a Quad 306, rated at 50 watts, room is 13 x 12, I find I have plenty of volume. BTW, the sensitivity is 84, not 81. The sealed cabinet really helps bass control I find, really surprising the firmness and depth they can do, I had larger ported ones before and much prefer sealed cabinet bass.
. BTW, the sensitivity is 84, not 81. .
I was going off the independent measurements from 'Stereophile' rather than the manufacturer's claim.
I live in a 1st floor flat, so suspended floorboards, as yet I haven't tried anything like stone slabs, for now the Talisman just sit straight on the floor as they seem to have different size holes for the spikes to the Templars, so will need to get some new spikes to try that. Room is sort of L shape - well not so narrow, but lounge with kitchen off lounge in same room and carpeted. I suppose filling the front ports would foam would dampen the bass a lot? Any thing else to try before I go back to stand mounts?
^^ This.
Lots of good advice so far, Mike, which you should follow. However, unfortunately the problem will not go away (or be lessened) until you address the issue of isolation, and in that respect, install something effective.
No loudspeaker with a decent bass response I've ever used on a suspended wooden floor, has failed to boom, simply plonked on the floor with no spikes or stands/isolation platforms. Therefore, no matter what else you do, until you fix that, your room will continue to 'sing along' with the music, but not in a good way! ;)
Also, if you can, posting a couple of good, clear pictures of your set up, from different angles, might help us advise you in some other way of how to optimise things, perhaps with speaker positioning. Mains (and cable) issues can often also contribute to boomy bass.
Is all your kit, for example, simply plugged into a cheapo 'B&Q mains block'?
Marco.
ianlenco
11-09-2017, 08:21
Re the Neat motive (SX2) - they are not overly bright and for their size they do decent bass which is tight and tuneful. I've always avoided Naim amplification but some love it and the Neats are supposed to work well with Naim. I really liked my Neats until I got the bug to build some full-rangers again and Alan Firebottle liked them enough to buy them after he heard them at my house in a room not too dissimilar in size to yours.
Mikeandvan
11-09-2017, 23:49
^^ This.
Lots of good advice so far, Mike, which you should follow. However, unfortunately the problem will not go away (or be lessened) until you address the issue of isolation, and in that respect, install something effective.
No loudspeaker with a decent bass response I've ever used on a suspended wooden floor, has failed to boom, simply plonked on the floor with no spikes or stands/isolation platforms. Therefore, no matter what else you do, until you fix that, your room will continue to 'sing along' with the music, but not in a good way! ;)
Also, if you can, posting a couple of good, clear pictures of your set up, from different angles, might help us advise you in some other way of how to optimise things, perhaps with speaker positioning. Mains (and cable) issues can often also contribute to boomy bass.
Is all your kit, for example, simply plugged into a cheapo 'B&Q mains block'?
Marco.
Thanks for detailed reply Marco. I've yet to even put spikes onto the speakers! Does anyone know what size they are? My old Templars had smaller spikes. My kit at present which comprises of a the naim 72/140/teddycap is plugged straight into the wall sockets. The mains leads for the 140 and Teddycap are plugged into the wall socket via a 2 way adapter, then the cdp or Turntable gets sole use of the other side of the double wall socket, is this not ideal! Cables are a bit of a mess, all hanging down the back of the amps which sit on Ikea shelves - you know the cubic ones. So should I try paving slabs to site the Talisman II after I've got spikes for them? Or do I seek out dedicated stands? I'll post pics of my lounge tomorrow, thanks all. By the way, anyone have any experience of Monitor Audio Gold 3 (I think these are quite old now). These look to be compact floorstanders. I was thinking mini monitors but fear these might be too bright sounding for my Naim amps.
anthonyTD
12-09-2017, 16:01
:)
If the bass is annoying the neighbours below then you need to decouple the speakers from the floor. If you couple them with spikes then you will just transmit clearer bass down to your neighbours. Lots of threads about decoupling speakers but if you search Townshend seismic speaker mounts on google or u-tube then that is a good place to start reading about the science of sound transmission.
Mikeandvan
12-09-2017, 16:45
:)
I had to laugh at those prices, £1000 for 2 bits of metal, bet they don't sell many of those. Still, gave me an idea, halved squash balls under paving slabs.
anthonyTD
12-09-2017, 17:00
Try it, you never know!
As for the Townshend ones, I can vouch from personal experience that they do work! As for the price, well...
I had to laugh at those prices, £1000 for 2 bits of metal, bet they don't sell many of those. Still, gave me an idea, halved squash balls under paving slabs.
Mikeandvan
14-09-2017, 20:02
OK, spikes in, and metal floor protectors on carpet, bass still sounds boomy, next step paving slabs? Whats best slate, granite or just normal slabs will do?
Normal concrete slabs are fine.
I thin the problem is elsewhere myself, but it doesn't hurt to try it.
Minstrel SE
14-09-2017, 21:56
OK, spikes in, and metal floor protectors on carpet, bass still sounds boomy, next step paving slabs? Whats best slate, granite or just normal slabs will do?
I tried concrete paving slabs because they are a few quid each and that was good enough for me. I eventually made some fabric covered wood frames for them. I cant design and build a new floor so it was a calculated compromise. I didnt really have boomy bass but wanted to try taking the spikes out of floorboards, a solid enough plinth and testing spikes onto concrete.
If you have granite money there will be people telling you about the composition of slate and granite vs concrete. I probably wouldnt hear any difference if they were on granite but Im not going to pay the money anyway.
You could try some paving slabs and see if you like what they do.
Mikeandvan
14-09-2017, 22:19
Thanks Minstrel, B&Q beckons.
Mikeandvan
14-09-2017, 22:21
Normal concrete slabs are fine.
I thin the problem is elsewhere myself, but it doesn't hurt to try it.
OK, where else could it be? I'm getting another cdp on weekend, and my TT is getting a new armboard from NAS, my power amp has just had a minicap fitted and been serviced by a pro, and my pre amp was serviced last year, although I did twist the volume control way past its stopping point - don't ask why!
walpurgis
14-09-2017, 22:39
To be honest. This might be the stage at which it might be good to accept that some room/speaker combinations just don't work. Can you borrow other speakers to try?
In your circumstances, I'd be looking at good standmounters on rigid, spiked stands. The Reference 3A Dulcets listed today in Private Exhibitions spring to mind. they are gorgeous. Reference make amazingly good speakers.
Mikeandvan
14-09-2017, 23:02
Yes, I have tried Epos es 11 and they were ok, but was looking for something with a bit more detail, but tbh I may go back to them. I was also considering Spendor s3, and other minimonitors, but fear my power amp - 45w (Naim Nap 140) might not have power to drive them, or they'll be too bright with my Naim amps. So I guess I need stand mounts with some warmth, but also detail.
walpurgis
14-09-2017, 23:04
Sonus Faber.
Mikeandvan
14-09-2017, 23:18
To be honest. This might be the stage at which it might be good to accept that some room/speaker combinations just don't work. Can you borrow other speakers to try?
In your circumstances, I'd be looking at good standmounters on rigid, spiked stands. The Reference 3A Dulcets listed today in Private Exhibitions spring to mind. they are gorgeous. Reference make amazingly good speakers.
Just read a review of the Dulcets, stated they were very inefficient (although most of the review was gushing), does this mean they need a lot of power to drive them?
walpurgis
15-09-2017, 08:36
Just read a review of the Dulcets, stated they were very inefficient (although most of the review was gushing), does this mean they need a lot of power to drive them?
What was the sensitivity quoted in the review?
Starterman
15-09-2017, 19:18
I don't understand why after 4 weeks the OP hasn't stuffed the ports.
Everything else suggested, except perhaps moving the speakers, is just fiddling around the edges compared to blocking out the waffle emanating from the fart holes.
If the OP, or any one else, is unfortunate enough for the port output to coincide with the main room mode lengthwise or widthwise then the situation is dire. 14ft will give a room mode at 40Hz. The height being about half of this could exacerbate the problem. Placing the speakers in the wrong place across the room e.g. equal spacing to side walls and double that distance between the speakers will make mattes worse again.
So... move the speakers and/or block the ports.
On the subject of spikes etc... cheap and easy to provide lossy decoupling - just a bit of underlay and square of carpet under the plinth of each speaker is quite effective.
Blocking the ports might reduce the amount of bass but it will also alter the entire performance of the speaker and not in a good way. It's not really a solution to the problem.
walpurgis
16-09-2017, 08:32
Blocking the ports might reduce the amount of bass but it will also alter the entire performance of the speaker and not in a good way. It's not really a solution to the problem.
Yes. Blocking or partially blocking ports raises the speaker bass resonance. Results are unpredictable.
Starterman
16-09-2017, 09:19
Blocking the ports might reduce the amount of bass but it will also alter the entire performance of the speaker and not in a good way. It's not really a solution to the problem.
How does it alter the entire perfomance?
The performance of the mid bass and bass drivers will depend on the pressure or lack of it inside the cab. Added to that some drivers will only work optimally in a vented enclosure. If you block the port you change the loading on the driver and this will change how it performs across the entire frequency band, almost certainly for the worse and certainly in a way not intended by the designer.
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the low damping factor of the Naim amp, plus the room, placement of the speakers and possibly the characteristics of the speaker cable are combining to produce the problem. The problem is not inherent to the speakers, since they were not designed to give 'masses of boomy bass', so modifying the speakers is not likely to be a satisfactory solution.
Mikeandvan
16-09-2017, 10:40
The performance of the mid bass and bass drivers will depend on the pressure or lack of it inside the cab. Added to that some drivers will only work optimally in a vented enclosure. If you block the port you change the loading on the driver and this will change how it performs across the entire frequency band, almost certainly for the worse and certainly in a way not intended by the designer.
My guess, and it is only a guess, is that the low damping factor of the Naim amp, plus the room, placement of the speakers and possibly the characteristics of the speaker cable are combining to produce the problem. The problem is not inherent to the speakers, since they were not designed to give 'masses of boomy bass', so modifying the speakers is not likely to be a satisfactory solution.
Hi Macca, what do you mean by the 'low damping factor' of the Naim amp? (the pre or power?). Thanks.
Mike.
Hi Macca, what do you mean by the 'low damping factor' of the Naim amp? (the pre or power?). Thanks.
Mike.
Here's an explanation: http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/75-amp-tests/149-damping-factor.html
In short, an amplifier with low damping factor (like your Naim power amp) might give soft or boomy (or both) bass when driving a lightly damped loudspeaker (like your Ruarks). I think you might have some room/placement issues too, and it all adds up. You get over the tipping point and you get the boominess. If you can borrow a different power amp off someone local, you can see if that is the problem.
Starterman
16-09-2017, 16:52
Although I partially agree, port tuning is not an exact science. The drive unit parameters vary too much with sample to sample variation and with temperature and voice coil position etc.
Blocking the port is a quick and easy experiment to check if the port output (which is inherently stores energy) is causing the OP's problems. Of course it will affect the loading of the bass/mid driver but this will not dramatically change the mids and has no effect on the tweeter o/p.
All ported speakers produce low fequencies with compromised transient response. If the port tuning frequency coincides with a room mode then boomy bass is the result - scientific fact!
Naim amps have ~.25 Ohms output impedance. The effect this has on lf response is audible but not that significant.
Actually doing something trumps forum opinions most of the time IMO.
Mikeandvan
06-11-2017, 23:40
Although I partially agree, port tuning is not an exact science. The drive unit parameters vary too much with sample to sample variation and with temperature and voice coil position etc.
Blocking the port is a quick and easy experiment to check if the port output (which is inherently stores energy) is causing the OP's problems. Of course it will affect the loading of the bass/mid driver but this will not dramatically change the mids and has no effect on the tweeter o/p.
All ported speakers produce low fequencies with compromised transient response. If the port tuning frequency coincides with a room mode then boomy bass is the result - scientific fact!
Naim amps have ~.25 Ohms output impedance. The effect this has on lf response is audible but not that significant.
Actually doing something trumps forum opinions most of the time IMO.
OK, delayed response, I blocked the ports on my old Epos es11 and the results were good, boominess reduced with no other musical losses.
walpurgis
06-11-2017, 23:44
Blocking reflex ports or partially blocking them with porous foam bungs raises the system bass resonance, so bottom end roll-off point is higher. This may not be audibly detrimental though.
I have a concrete floor so not exactly the same, the biggest improvement I got was by getting some rubber gromments, sort with a solid bottom and lip all the way round and then putting a small coin inside ro rest the speaker spikes on. cheap and easy to try.
I have to be honest that whilst it helped it didnt fully cure the problem so I ended up adding an external crossover a couple of subs and put a DSpeaker equaliser on them
All ported speakers produce low fequencies with compromised transient response. If the port tuning frequency coincides with a room mode then boomy bass is the result - scientific fact!
It's all relative and frequency dependent. A room mode is just that, if you exite it you will get a boom regardless of how the speaker is loaded.
The issue is many ported standmounts are tuned to give the illusion of (low) bass, this looks like a hump around 60hz and in uk homes at least is often a room mode problem area. Larger ported boxes wont have this fake bass hump in low end response and so wont energise a room any worse than a sealed enclosure.
Are you sure about your post 75 Geoff? Although a long time ago I did a lot of playing with this.
If you use the example of a DC movement of the cone, a lower Xsectional area of the port produces a larger 'squirt' time constant from the port, and this corresponds with a lower resonant frequency.
I do appreciate that the resonance depends directly on the mass of air in the port though. Crammed large black drinking straws perhaps?
Also re damping factor, many do not understand that there is a limit to how good this can be, and assume that the 'numbers game' played by manufacturers represents the reality.
It doesn't because the DC resistance of the voicecoil limits it, and 20 or 30 is good enough because of this.
The touted idea that an amp with an O.P Z of 0.001 ohms feeding a speaker of 10 ohms has a damping factor of 10/0.001 = 10,000 is pure fantasy because it ignores the voicecoil resistance.
If you completely block the ports the system resonance goes up-and the roll off becomes shallower-it becomes a sealed enclosure. Porous bungs damp the port output, changing Q whilst the nature and length of the foam bung will affect the tuning to greater or lesser degree.The openness of the foam will dictate wether it will only marginally alter the csa of the port.
Mikeandvan
17-11-2017, 20:33
Well I put socks in the ports, it does indeed help. Trouble is my dog keeps pulling them out.
Here is a pic of my lounge (and kitchen). I rent so I can't spend money changing the basics, but I should be here another few years I guess. Any ideas on room lay out? I can;t really set it up any other way, due to juliet balcony. Please advise on any obvious faults with my set up if any. Thanks.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4555/37582023255_7a7959154f_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/ZfZGbc)IMG_20171113_130810860 (https://flic.kr/p/ZfZGbc) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4556/26693357109_825189ce6a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GENr5Z)IMG_20171113_130826218 (https://flic.kr/p/GENr5Z) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4586/38413181546_0e72b3dd14_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21wrAzy)IMG_20171113_131048034 (https://flic.kr/p/21wrAzy) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
Speakers right in the corners, get them out a bit. The dog knows what he is doing taking those socks out. You don't need the speakers so far apart, 6 foot will do and that looks like a lot more, although could be the perspective or my brain.
Mikeandvan
17-11-2017, 20:57
Speakers right in the corners, get them out a bit. The dog knows what he is doing taking those socks out. You don't need the speakers so far apart, 6 foot will do and that looks like a lot more, although could be the perspective or my brain.
From cone to cone the speakers are 6.5 ft apart.
Get them in another 4 inches each and get them a couple of inches more out into the room. Is what I would try, anyway. A few inches can make a difference.
Mikeandvan
17-11-2017, 21:15
Get them in another 4 inches each and get them a couple of inches more out into the room. Is what I would try, anyway. A few inches can make a difference.
Just tried that , not much difference except sound is a bit more 'in your face', need it more laid back, the treble is quite screechy, mind you I do listen mostly 60s/70s rock/pop. Worth trying paving slabs, speakers aren't that solid, or exactly level. Though to be honest the socks do tame the boominess a bit. Since upgrading to my NAS TT the sound is better overall, but still has a boxiness to it, I'd like a more natural flowing sound, not so forced.
You need to have a total rethink then Mike. Boomy bass is one thing but if the sound is screechy and in your face then it won't be the speakers - unless they are broken. And don't fall into the trap of thinking it is the recordings. You have good speakers and you should be able to get away with them in that space from the bass side of things. I'd look at cables and interconnects and if that doesn't work, consider that there might be an issue with amp or sources.
Mikeandvan
17-11-2017, 21:38
You need to have a total rethink then Mike. Boomy bass is one thing but if the sound is screechy and in your face then it won't be the speakers - unless they are broken. And don't fall into the trap of thinking it is the recordings. You have good speakers and you should be able to get away with them in that space from the bass side of things. I'd look at cables and interconnects and if that doesn't work, consider that there might be an issue with amp or sources.
Well, I've recently changed TTs since I started this thread so can't be that. Recently went from a standard Naim nap 140 (power amp) to one with an Avondale minicap - done by a pro, so that must rule that out. All thats left is the pre amp - Naim nac 72, that was serviced 2 / 3 years ago at Class A. Cables? who knows what could be up with those! I was gonna try a totally new amp set up when money was flowing a bit easier, gonna try an old integrated Sony 700 es or similar, just to see what difference that makes, not too much outlay. One thing I did turn my pre amp volume control way past its stopping point, thinking I was undoing the screw to get the cover of the volume control off, nope, still works, but don't know whether that could adversely affect the sound. Some musical genres are better to listen to than others, on my current system, its my favourites like the stones and kinks, Beatles, which become a bit screechy and unbearable, and rather boxed in sound.
Well, I've recently changed TTs since I started this thread so can't be that. Recently went from a standard Naim nap 140 (power amp) to one with an Avondale minicap - done by a pro, so that must rule that out. All thats left is the pre amp - Naim nac 72, that was serviced 2 / 3 years ago at Class A. Cables? who knows what could be up with those! I was gonna try a totally new amp set up when money was flowing a bit easier, gonna try an old integrated Sony 700 es or similar, just to see what difference that makes, not too much outlay. One thing I did turn my pre amp volume control way past its stopping point, thinking I was undoing the screw to get the cover of the volume control off, nope, still works, but don't know whether that could adversely affect the sound. Some musical genres are better to listen to than others, on my current system, its my favourites like the stones and kinks, Beatles, which become a bit screechy and unbearable, and rather boxed in sound.
Do you have a digital source you can use? That would at least rule out the turntable. Okay you changed TT but there is still the condition of the needle, the set up, loads of variables.
Cables and interconnects, what are you using? Some do sound the same but some can affect the sound depending on what they are connecting. If you are using something fancy for speaker cable or interconnects consider changing that.
Primitive recordings like early Kinks or Beatles are going to sound 'primitive' but they don't, or shouldn't, sound unpleasant. So you do have an issue somewhere.
Mikeandvan
17-11-2017, 22:07
Do you have a digital source you can use? That would at least rule out the turntable. Okay you changed TT but there is still the condition of the needle, the set up, loads of variables.
Cables and interconnects, what are you using? Some do sound the same but some can affect the sound depending on what they are connecting. If you are using something fancy for speaker cable or interconnects consider changing that.
Primitive recordings like early Kinks or Beatles are going to sound 'primitive' but they don't, or shouldn't, sound unpleasant. So you do have an issue somewhere.
I use Naim A4 speaker cable, its very long, much more than I need, its quite a jumble of cables behind my ikea shelves which you see in pic, which equipment is on. The needle is also new. The interconnects used are all Flashback ones (they do cheaper Naim snaic cables, among others). I mean the sound isn't awful, just not as I'd like it, sort of tinny, boxed in. With other music its quite good, but even earlier I was playing Stevie WOnder 70s lps, and it still didn;t sound as natural or flowing as it should. Suppose I should try to get out to some bake offs - see what others systems sound like. I do listen to my system alot, so its definitely worth getting it right. I do have a good CDP - the Pioneer PD 8700 - which knocks spots off the Sony 715 it replaced. That sounds well like cd, but still has the forced sound to it, and the boominess is I think worse. I should get some of the lps I have on vinyl on cd as well, so I can compare them.
Sounds like you have tried everything. I am convinced certain equipment matches can cause this effect. I had a boomy system - Modaunt Short floorstanders and a NAD power amp that could blow them up if it wanted too. Then I changed speakers to my present QAcoustics which go way lower than the MS speakers. I was scared things would be worse - but - it got better! Everything else was the same - speaker placement etc.
It had to be a better match of amp/cable/crossovers - something like that.
A few people have said you should change something - source, amp, cable, whatever - that is what I'd advise too, purely on my own weird experience.
Chris
fatmarley
18-11-2017, 08:52
I definitely try a different amp. For a cheap experiment, a Cambridge Audio AM1 can be had for peanuts and sounds surprisingly good for a budget amp (No sonic nasties). Or a quad 303 (assuming easy load), 306, or 909 and a passive preamp will sound very different to your Naim, and the sound you describe.
Mikeandvan
18-11-2017, 13:15
I definitely try a different amp. For a cheap experiment, a Cambridge Audio AM1 can be had for peanuts and sounds surprisingly good for a budget amp (No sonic nasties). Or a quad 303 (assuming easy load), 306, or 909 and a passive preamp will sound very different to your Naim, and the sound you describe.
I was thinking Quad actually, aren't they very old though? Would need to be serviced right?
Hmm, if its a speaker control issue then a 1980s Jap amp for little money would be my first choice, or as Jerry said above try a T-amp which can be cheap as chips. You aren't looking for perfection at this point, just to see what affects what, and how much. If it were me I'd pull the speakers out into the room a lot and play with their placement. I know they can't stay there but you'll get an idea of the effect that the room is having. I'd also suggest if you want a warmer sound and can't get your speakers out of the corner then why not look for a pair of Snell J? They work fine in corners, or the AN-J which are designed for corner loading. They seem to be available from time to time at very reasonable money and sound great with your taste in music.
Mikeandvan
18-11-2017, 19:39
Hmm, if its a speaker control issue then a 1980s Jap amp for little money would be my first choice, or as Jerry said above try a T-amp which can be cheap as chips. You aren't looking for perfection at this point, just to see what affects what, and how much. If it were me I'd pull the speakers out into the room a lot and play with their placement. I know they can't stay there but you'll get an idea of the effect that the room is having. I'd also suggest if you want a warmer sound and can't get your speakers out of the corner then why not look for a pair of Snell J? They work fine in corners, or the AN-J which are designed for corner loading. They seem to be available from time to time at very reasonable money and sound great with your taste in music.
I tried moving the speakers doesn't make much difference, I've now put them bang up against he back wall, I think this seems best? They're front ported anyway. Whats a T-amp?
The bass doesn't improve with positioning so I'd say you have an amp with low damping factor and speakers that are a little loose in the bass. So that means changing the amp or speakers. Snell/Audionote speakers would work in corners, as suggested, personally I don't go for that room enhanced bass thing they do, but it is all personal taste. Tannoy DC would also work but spendier by a margin. But I don't know how happy either speaker would be with the Naim amp.
If it were me I'd keep the Talismans and sell the Naim pre and power and get a passive pre and a higher damped power amp or buy a renovated Jap battleship integrated from late 80s / early nineties. That won't take any nonsense from the Ruarks. You want a top of the line one mind, budget a grand for it at least.
Mikeandvan
18-11-2017, 20:22
The bass doesn't improve with positioning so I'd say you have an amp with low damping factor and speakers that are a little loose in the bass. So that means changing the amp or speakers. Snell/Audionote speakers would work in corners, as suggested, personally I don't go for that room enhanced bass thing they do, but it is all personal taste. Tannoy DC would also work but spendier by a margin. But I don't know how happy either speaker would be with the Naim amp.
If it were me I'd keep the Talismans and sell the Naim pre and power and get a passive pre and a higher damped power amp or buy a renovated Jap battleship integrated from late 80s / early nineties. That won't take any nonsense from the Ruarks. You want a top of the line one mind, budget a grand for it at least.
Thanks for the replies Martin, wouldn't a £300 Sony 700 ES do the job? You would get an awful lot of Jap amp for a grand!
it would sound okay, and would probably sort your bass issue. But some of the cheaper ES gear is nothing special. The flagship amps are the ones to go for, where Japanese corporate pride has been staked, so it is as good as they could get it, rather than built to a price point. Worth paying the extra IMO.
paulf-2007
18-11-2017, 21:01
I swapped PX25 monoblocks, built by Jim turner for Jim carfrae to demo his carfrae horns to a Sony STR 6055 receiver I paid £69 for and it does all the PX25's did and more. Haven't found another STR 6055 for less than £300 lately. It's as good as all the valve amps I've had and I had always dismissed solid state as dull.
paulf-2007
18-11-2017, 21:06
There is a Sony STR 6055 on eBay starting £125 no bids ends tomorrow
Borrow, or get a mate round to lend and help with trying another amp, an amp which is well known for its low O/P impedance and with a high drive capability. It will show instantly if your amp is to blame for poor damping.
The only remaining things are; your speakers are inherently underdamped by design, be it in the drivers or the Xover making them 'wooly', or your room interaction, this usually very clear from symptoms.
I just clicked on this thread randomly. I happen to have used Talisman 2s for a decade (changed a couple of months back), a friend still runs them, and my brother still has some in a second system. I'd guess I've heard them on about a dozen different amps or pre/power combinations and with stacks of sources, up to reasonably good like a £4k RRP combination of CD Transport and Dac.
I scan read the thread.
Firstly, you have them on spikes, and on carpet yes? If so great, and you want those spikes driven straight through the carpet to make contact with the floorboards or concrete underneath. (I saw mention of sitting them on metal discs/coins? Forget doing that). Also, you need to spend time making sure they do not wobble about, levelling the spikes until they sit perfectly with no wobble if you go to rock them.
Now, IF you chose to put a big stone slab under each speaker and put them on that instead fair enough, but don't expect a different ballpark of bass, it won't be radically different.
Someone else has spotted positioning, I think they are right, ideally a little more out from the wall and sides of the room will help a bit regarding bass.
From there on in there can be reasons you don't like them:
1) You just don't like them
2) How they sound in your particular room is something you don't like
...but...
3) Are they not sounding like they should anyway?
So, you need to rule out number 3. All I can say is I have run them or heard them with loads of amps, from an old £150 Arcam Alpha One (I think I have that noted right), to custom built valve integrated, to Rotel Michi Pre-Power, Class D (Nord), about 6 variants of Cyrus amps, and a few more. Now, with every amp, the character of the Talisman's never really changed too much, not enough to have a completely different amount of bass. So, my advice (just like the guy above says) is get hold of any other amp you can, any old speaker cable (preferably not some naim specific thing) and a CD player, any old one again. Now, play music on it for 2 minutes and ask yourself if the bass is overwhelming still, if it is, forget Talismans in that room, they won't be for you. If you however find they sound way different, you've managed to find an amp and kit that does not partner well with them at all, I never did, I found ones I preferred but not ones that truly didn't play ball.
By the way, they are really easy to drive, they aren't in need of lots of power to sound great, and the sound you can get out of them is really really good for the small amount of money they cost, if they suit the room you have them in. I kept mine and they are back in their boxes up in the loft, one day I might put them into another system.
it would sound okay, and would probably sort your bass issue. But some of the cheaper ES gear is nothing special. The flagship amps are the ones to go for, where Japanese corporate pride has been staked, so it is as good as they could get it, rather than built to a price point. Worth paying the extra IMO.
oh contraire! http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-F700ES.html
what amp do i use? where do i live? send me a pm mike lol
mike i have suggested in this thread that something like mana sound bases would help with your bass boom,i had the same thing with ditton 66's,they worked to great effect in tightening up the bass.
Mikeandvan
19-11-2017, 14:48
oh contraire! http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-F700ES.html
what amp do i use? where do i live? send me a pm mike lol
mike i have suggested in this thread that something like mana sound bases would help with your bass boom,i had the same thing with ditton 66's,they worked to great effect in tightening up the bass.
Emm, aren't they rather expensive for what they are? Aah, I see your in Brighton.
fatmarley
19-11-2017, 23:06
I was thinking Quad actually, aren't they very old though? Would need to be serviced right?
Possibly, but they are Incredibly easy to service. It's unlikely to solve the bass problem, but should help with the screechy treble.
Another option you could try Is extending the ports to lower the tuning frequency. It doesn't matter If the ports are extended on the outside of the cabinet, so easy to try a quick experiment with some rolled up cardboard or something.
jandl100
20-11-2017, 11:32
Whats a T-amp?
I can loan you one.
It's a teeny weeny thing - size of a fag packet. My review here (http://hifipig.com/do-good-things-come-in-small-packages-amptastic-mini-t/)
Mine is out on loan to another AOSer at the moment but I can ask him to send it on to you if you like.
(He was so impressed with it that he bought the latest version!).
Anyway - yours as a loaner if you want to try. :) Just PM me your name & address.
Mikeandvan
20-11-2017, 13:39
I can loan you one.
It's a teeny weeny thing - size of a fag packet. My review here (http://hifipig.com/do-good-things-come-in-small-packages-amptastic-mini-t/)
Mine is out on loan to another AOSer at the moment but I can ask him to send it on to you if you like.
(He was so impressed with it that he bought the latest version!).
Anyway - yours as a loaner if you want to try. :) Just PM me your name & address.
So that's an integrated amp with one input?
jandl100
20-11-2017, 13:54
So that's an integrated amp with one input?
Yes.
You can use it as a power amp with the volume control at max, and a separate pre amp. Quite a few folks prefer to use them this way for sq reasons.
It's just a way to try a (very) different amp to see what happens with the sound with your speakers.
Class D amps like this one have very high damping factor, so should give excellent bass control - which they do, very taut and defined.
It's a small light package - £2.95 Royal Mail Small Packet will do it.
Not sure if you've tried this but get them off the floor-6-10 inches and see what happens-this could be an 'horrible floor ceiling thing going on.
Mikeandvan
23-11-2017, 18:58
Well I've moved my amps to the top of my shelf now so the cables are a lot tidier. Can't say it affects the sound, which actually is pretty good now I've got the NAS TT, still the boominess persists. I've just ordered sorbothane half domes for the speakers, £25 for 8, so a risk free try out. Thanks to Yomanze and his thread on decoupling for this. http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?54627-Bright-Star-Isonodes-Coupling-vs-Decoupling/page2
Looking tidier!
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4580/38547188262_7f4e2cb141_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21Jhq7b)IMG_20171122_114728940_HDR (https://flic.kr/p/21Jhq7b) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4545/38547173262_be6b5a2bc8_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/21JhkDy)IMG_20171122_114810309 (https://flic.kr/p/21JhkDy) by Mike Van (https://www.flickr.com/photos/145505522@N02/), on Flickr
Mikeandvan
23-11-2017, 21:11
Did I say it was sounding pretty good, apart from the already mentioned boominess? well not so sure now. Just played some records I haven't played in quite a while, and they sounded awful, they were old school hip hop and 90s techno, really screechy, had to take them off the TT, unlistenable. I listened long enough to hear sounds I never knew were there! What was once a faint high pitched sound became a whistle, timing was much better, as were drums, but, and a big but, overall sound was unlistenable, too much screechiness. Strange cos I played another old hip hop LP yesterday and it sounded great, but that was a slightly funkier and better produced sound - Jeru the Damaja if anyone is familiar. Again, a lot of music makes more sense because the timing is better, but this further insight into the music sometimes comes at the expense of overall fluidity (if you know wharra mean) and just listenability. I'm beginning to think that old Naim amps are only any good (Turntable wise) with old LP12s, with their mellower less revealing nature. A change in ampage might be in order. Thinking something at the other end of the spectrum - like Quad, but open to anything really. Shame as the old Naim shoe boxes do look nice, but then so do old Quads.
As said earlier, grab any other amp just to try.
fatmarley
28-11-2017, 09:21
You really should take Jerry up on his offer. I have a little T-amp here somewhere and the first thing I noticed when I fired It up, was how tight the bass was. They sound surprisingly good for their size and price.
Mikeandvan
02-12-2017, 18:50
Well I've just made a new addition to my set up. A Nakamichi ca-5, it was £300 off the bay, seems to be worth it for the phono stage alone. Can I use this with my Naim gear as a phono stage? This is just to start, I'm gonna be looking at new power amps soon, could be Nak 0a7 when one turns up eventually, quite happy waiting, or even valves??
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