PSU Upgrades. Why?

[walpurgis]

There are power supply 'upgrades' for many Hi-Fi components, from turntables to phono stages and amplifiers and pre-amps and so on. Some from the manufacturer or others being aftermarket units.

If these 'better' power supplies are needed, that implies that the original was inadequate. If that is the case, why are so many products being sold with unsuitable power supplies? Or, is the wool being pulled over our eyes?

[southall-1998]

Can't really answer your question, Geoff.

When I had a Cyrus 8VS2. I noticed a difference, when I connected the PSX-R. The sound become more smoother, couth etc.

S.

[fatmarley]

Have a read of this - LINK (https://www.teddypardo.com/powersupplies/underthehood.html)

[Light Dependant Resistor]

As one door opens, a thousand are flung open underneath is a saying Ben Duncan used to use.
Very much applying to this topic. If you have the patience and time to examine all the short cuts
taken in power supplies and arising everything that can be done, then welcome to the effort some of us
put into equipment building and its design.

Take as example a humble bridge rectifier found in almost every piece of equipment, does an alternative exist ? Of course it does. It is a Linear Technology now Texas Instruments LT 4320 and instead of diodes it uses N channel mosfets. is it good ?
well I am trying one in a few weeks when some low Rds on N Channel Hexfets arrive, so can report then.

You need to appreciate there is a plethora of mathematics that goes into good circuit design, It is relatively easy to design
the same circuits that everyone else uses, So inventive and exciting circuit forms are there, and a few of us on the forum
do our best to escape the all to common and boring forms, to bring you what is best.

Cheers / Chris

[walpurgis]

If these 'better' power supplies are needed, that implies that the original was inadequate. If that is the case, why are so many products being sold with unsuitable power supplies? Or, is the wool being pulled over our eyes?

A few replies, but no answers to the question.

[Firebottle]

Inadequate to give the ultimate best performance yes, I wouldn't say unsuitable given cost constraints and the law of diminishing returns.

With a bog standard psu you might be getting say 90% performance, but for the extra 10% you are probably doubling the purchase price, as a really good psu tends to be as as complex as the amplifier it is powering.

Think of the power supply as an amplifier but supplying power rather than an audio signal.

[anthonyTD]

A lot is down to cost saving, and the rest down to what the designer perceives as adequate at the time of manufacture! :)
A...

[Pharos]

We are, surely by definition, all seeking the last microgram of performance, and the law of limiting factors applies so that as each component gets better, other factors can now become the overall performance limiter.

So we are then in a position to question and re-validate what we previously took for granted as performing optimally, but this opens the doors to foo purveyers.

[Simon75]

On YouTube there is a clip of a salesman talking about the Michell gyrodec in which he states the upgraded PSU improves performance. That's fine but for over £400 I want to know a bit more specifically how it improves the sound of what's already on offer. I'm saying this as someone who has no experience of listening to the gyrodec but is planning to get one in a few years.

[walpurgis]

Maybe I'm being pedantic, but surely we are being sold products that work at their optimum and if performing as they should it require no improvement. To suggest they require an upgrade and can be improved implies that they are not good enough to start off with. i.e. substandard or defective! The perception being 'oh, it'll work, but it won't be right until you upgrade the power supply'.

It's a 'Catch 22' situation. Either something works as it should, or if it needs a power supply 'upgrade' to work properly, then it is defective.

I don't actually think there's a definitive answer, but I'm waiting to see :).

[Jimbo]

There is a simple answer Geoff, Cost!

[Yomanze]

Yep, cost, and building in an upgrade path to users a-la Naim.

[Frazeur1]

There is a simple answer Geoff, Cost!

This. The "hobby" of audio is no different than anything else, be it race cars, motor bikes etc. Everything as you already know, is built to a price point, and what one wants to do in order to "enhance" or improve upon it is usually down to more money and possibly tinkering if one is inclined to do so. The amount of improvement-if there is one, is down to the ear of the beholder. And their wallet.

I happen to own a few pieces of gear from Naim. And to read(or experience) about the power supply "upgrades" and the money one can spend on those is a bit over the top to me. I went down some of that path many years ago until I realized for me, that it can become about spending ridiculous amounts of money for little or maybe even no real benefit. Again, my ears, my money, spent or not. I think this very option though gets certain people that follow the agenda like sheep, to begin to doubt their own ears, and think of the next upgrade before the amp they just bought is even warmed up. FWIW

[walpurgis]

There is a simple answer Geoff, Cost!

Seems the point is still being missed.

If something is working properly it needs no upgrade. If an upgrade is required, then surely it wasn't working properly?

What is the upgrade doing, 'improving' an item that works exactly as it should and needs no improvement? Is the upgrade just a way to sell us something we don't actually need. Or, are components not functioning correctly without 'upgrading' and therefore defective? You can't have it both ways!

[Jimbo]

Seems the point is still being missed.

If something is working properly it needs no upgrade. If an upgrade is required, then surely it wasn't working properly?

What is the upgrade doing, 'improving' an item that works exactly as it should and needs no improvement? Is the upgrade just a way to sell us something we don't actually need. Or, are components not functioning correctly without 'upgrading' and therefore defective? You can't have it both ways!

Think of it like car models - you buy either a basic 1.6 or a V8 turbo of the same model. They both do the same job to a a point but obviously there is a difference in performance and Cost!

[walpurgis]

Think of it like car models - you buy either a basic 1.6 or a V8 turbo of the same model. They both do the same job to a a point but obviously there is a difference in performance and Cost!

Totally different. That's like comparing trainers to boots.

I'm talking about power supplies. An electric motor or an amplifier, etc., require the right current, voltage and so forth. Once they have that, they should work exactly as needed. Anything else is unnecessary.................Or is it?

[Jimbo]

Totally different. I'm talking about power supplies. An electric motor or an amplifier, etc., require the right current, voltage and so forth. Once they have that, they should work exactly as needed. Anything else is unnecessary.................Or is it?

If you don't understand the analogy I don,t think we are getting anywhere with this post.:rolleyes:

[walpurgis]

If you don't understand the analogy I don,t think we are getting anywhere with this post.:rolleyes:

Perhaps it's not "we"?

[RobbieGong]

I'm no expert Geoff but it's about implementation.
In basic terms - most manufacturers choose a simple approach that gets the job done, add to that cheaper electrical components.
A better thought out / well implemented design coupled with better quality electrical components tends to result in the reduction of noise and being audio thus allowing more of the music to come through, unhindered, less coloured and so and so.......

[Frazeur1]

I would say Geoff, you have been in this "business" long enough and you already know the answer to your own question. Carry on.

[RobbieGong]

I would say Geoff, you have been in this "business" long enough and you already know the answer to your own question. Carry on.

:lol: that did cross my mind, that he just fancies some chit chat :D

[Arkless Electronics]

In many cases the external power supply is totally irrelevant. EVERYTHING is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit.

[RobbieGong]

In many cases the external power supply is totally irrelevant. EVERYTHING is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit.

Good point Jez and would explain Paul Hynes triple stage regulator modules for the Technics SL12XX, which are attached to the pcb and work together in compliment with his SR7 external power supply.

[Puffin]

The Teddy Pardo article IMO goes quite a way to explain how better implementation of regulators and their circuits "should" lead to a less noisy supply. Would it cost a manufacturer vastly more to use something like this? I built several of his TeddyRegs and Powerregs some years ago after a group buy of the boards on PFM. I have to say that I did not notice a vast improvement in SQ, but then I probably didn't implement them in the best way. As Jez says "In many cases the external power supply is totally irrelevant. EVERYTHING is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit".

[Edward]

This thread is beginning to feel like the Linear vs Switched mode PSU thread of a couple of weeks ago or so. :)

I'd go along with Jez's comment about everything is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit. The question for me, and I guess Geoff, is how does one know if the main unit's power handling is 'defective', room for improvement or optimal anyway. How can one objectively measure that rather than simply spending a ton of money in the hope that things will improve - or worse developing a subjective opinion (expectation bias) on the 'improvement'?

Edward

[Arkless Electronics]

Good point Jez and would explain Paul Hynes triple stage regulator modules for the Technics SL12XX, which are attached to the pcb and work together in compliment with his SR7 external power supply.

I wrote a load of stuff in the recent thread on SMPS which is relevant to all types of PSU and there is more in the mythbusters thread (abandoned due to poor signal to noise ratio!) plus a thread from Paul Hynes recently on PSU's :)

[Arkless Electronics]

This thread is beginning to feel like the Linear vs Switched mode PSU thread of a couple of weeks ago or so. :)

I'd go along with Jez's comment about everything is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit. The question for me, and I guess Geoff, is how does one know if the main unit's power handling is 'defective', room for improvement or optimal anyway. How can one objectively measure that rather than simply spending a ton of money in the hope that things will improve - or worse developing a subjective opinion (expectation bias) on the 'improvement'?

Edward

All that really matters in an external PSU is that it can supply sufficient current at the right voltage. This assumes that the power is dealt with properly in the main unit of course. Some equipment has no regulation, smoothing etc internally and hence relies entirely on the quality of the external PSU but this is a VERY bad way of doing things and thankfully only a few manufacturers do things this way.

In general, the PSU's of SS power amps (and power section of integrated's) use the crudest of unregulated supplies. A regulated supply capable of powering a power amp is as complicated and expensive as the power amp itself, which answers the question of why they are so rarely used! Luckily power amps are designed to have good PSRR and largely ignore the crap power feeding them;)

[Yomanze]

If a component is dependent on a single rail DC input then it's going to be hobbled from the start in a lot of areas. Adding in a fancy external power supply can't fix the baseline performance inside the unit.

The best two ways to do it are either: have a galvanically isolated multi-rail external DC power supply, or to do the same inside the box.

[Edward]

Cheers Jez

Is there a way for punters to objectively measure their amps to see if an alternative PSU may improve things?

Do your comments hold true for other things - like DACS, computers, TTs etc?

Edward

btw: did you get the Marconi thing yet and does it work?

[Arkless Electronics]

If a component is dependent on a single rail DC input then it's going to be hobbled from the start in a lot of areas. Adding in a fancy external power supply can't fix the baseline performance inside the unit.

The best two ways to do it are either: have a galvanically isolated multi-rail external DC power supply, or to do the same inside the box.

:nono:

[Arkless Electronics]

Cheers Jez

Is there a way for punters to objectively measure their amps to see if an alternative PSU may improve things?

Do your comments hold true for other things - like DACS, computers, TTs etc?

Edward

btw: did you get the Marconi thing yet and does it work?

I'm afraid there is nothing a punter can do to measure any of this no...

Different things vary hugely as to how sensitive they are to PSU quality but the comments generally hold true yes.

TT supplies for most synchronous motor TT's are in effect low powered mains regenerators and supply a high voltage AC waveform to the TT. This will usually be 240V AC 50Hz of course but some TT supplies have a facility to change the frequency by a few Hz and so change the speed of the TT to be precisely 33 1/3 RPM. This can also be used to deliberately set it to the wrong speed to bring a recording which was off pitch into tune. Some can vary the AC voltage as well in the pursuit of lower vibration from the TT motor.

No I still don't have the Marconi Instruments signal generator....

[RothwellAudio]

Some equipment has no regulation, smoothing etc internally and hence relies entirely on the quality of the external PSU but this is a VERY bad way of doing things...

A cynic might say that designing something known to be heavily reliant on the quality of the power supply (because there's no regulation etc.) allows the manufacturer to "prove" that a more expensive outboard PSU add-on improves sound quality and puts customers on the never ending upgrade path with ever more expensive levels of PSU to upgrade to.

[walpurgis]

A cynic might say that designing something known to be heavily reliant on the quality of the power supply (because there's no regulation etc.) allows the manufacturer to "prove" that a more expensive outboard PSU add-on improves sound quality and puts customers on the never ending upgrade path with ever more expensive levels of PSU to upgrade to.

Now we're heading somewhere towards what I was getting at. I was beginning to think nobody had got the point of my question.

Which was largely. If a piece of equipment is working perfectly and exactly as it should with the standard power supply, how can it benefit from an 'upgraded' one.

I suspect there's a big market for posh PSU's and nobody wants to let on that they are probably a con.

[Arkless Electronics]

Now we're heading somewhere towards what I was getting at. I was beginning to think nobody had got the point of my question.

Which was largely. If a piece of equipment is working perfectly and exactly as it should with the standard power supply, how can it benefit from an 'upgraded' one.

I suspect there's a big market for posh PSU's and nobody wants to let on that they are probably a con.

Yep.

Some of the things that go on would make your toes curl! I well remember a past employer of mine having an FM tuner which retailed about £250 and used a bought in single board (the same board was available as a Rotel tuner for £120!). The mains transformer was not properly supported and many were arriving dead due to the PCB cracking under the weight of the TX in transit. So... they got staff to remove the TX, put it in a separate external box and claimed it was a completely redesigned MkII tuner with much improved performance... and added another £50 to the price! The mags duly reviewed it and said how much better it was than the MkI!!

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Despite the best man made measuring gear, it cannot do what a pair of ears can.

For instance in a new DC regulator design of mine, if you use a Nat semi LM317 which
measures the same as a ST LM317 it does not get close to what the ST does, yet they are
both LM317 from very well respected manufacturers.

In an earlier post I reached conclusion that the ST schematic internally leaves out a zener
diode on the adjustment leg, being the only difference between the two.

So to create circuits that sound good, you need to listen and also measure, as just measuring
you will otherwise miss essential aspects.

[RobbieGong]

Now we're heading somewhere towards what I was getting at. I was beginning to think nobody had got the point of my question.

Which was largely. If a piece of equipment is working perfectly and exactly as it should with the standard power supply, how can it benefit from an 'upgraded' one.

I suspect there's a big market for posh PSU's and nobody wants to let on that they are probably a con.

Big ? Don't know, but like all things there'll be the type of market you refer of cause - business is like that.
It's not the overall picture though imo\e and we all know in this game if it sounds better it is ;) :)

[Jimbo]

Ah so it's just about manufacturers making more money?

[jandl100]

There are power supply 'upgrades' for many Hi-Fi components, from turntables to phono stages and amplifiers and pre-amps and so on. Some from the manufacturer or others being aftermarket units.

If these 'better' power supplies are needed, that implies that the original was inadequate. If that is the case, why are so many products being sold with unsuitable power supplies? Or, is the wool being pulled over our eyes?

I always knew that we have a fundamentally different world view.
This post simply confirms it! :lol:

[Arkless Electronics]

Naim are about the worst offenders at this... Not only do they put the regulator at the wrong end (PSU end), they're 20P LM317's... and then they feed the power to the circuits via a 27R resistor decoupled to ground via a 47uF cap.... which removes most of the point of the regulation anyway! (it will help to remove noise though) Then there's the toroidal transformer big enough to literally power a hundred pre-amps... which no doubt makes it feel heavy enough to be worth all that money :D

[walpurgis]

DNM used to make me wonder. The basic pre-amp came with an offboard power supply, to which could be added what seemed like an endless chain of additional power supplies.

[Edward]

Is it not the case that many manufacturers, to be competitive, will use bits in their amps or whatever that will achieve a certain market price point and where the sound will be adequate? And then offer 'upgrades' (e.g. higher quality regulators, smoothing caps etc) to achieve a better sound? Most often these upgrades will, sadly, be proportionally much more expensive.

[Jimbo]

Is it not the case that many manufacturers, to be competitive, will use bits in their amps or whatever that will achieve a certain market price point and where the sound will be adequate? And then offer 'upgrades' (e.g. higher quality regulators, smoothing caps etc) to achieve a better sound? Most often these upgrades will, sadly, be proportionally much more expensive.

It's all down to cost then as I said much earlier on, but I don't think Geoff believes this.

[sq225917]

Seems the point is still being missed.

If something is working properly it needs no upgrade. If an upgrade is required, then surely it wasn't working properly?

What is the upgrade doing, 'improving' an item that works exactly as it should and needs no improvement? Is the upgrade just a way to sell us something we don't actually need. Or, are components not functioning correctly without 'upgrading' and therefore defective? You can't have it both ways!



Seems like you're missing the point.

You can't put £1000 worth of psu into a product that sells for £100. just like you can't put a engine from a £200,000 Ferrari inside a Fiat that sells for £5,000.

there's nothing broken in a £100 psu, that's just what you get for £100.

Its just that the £500 is better.

If you want better performance open your wallet for it.

The reason psu's are often the apparently cost limited part is that they are easier to substitute within a design. Any tit can plug in a new psu. Designing an amplifier to have a swappable output stage would be an altogether more difficult task and that's why it doesn't happen.


There nothing wrong with the performance of a cheap psu, it performs as a cheap psu is expected to perform. It's just that more expensive psu's can be better, much better.

[struth]

Sure, everything is made to a price, or should I say, a profit. Better components dont always improve something but they often do.

[Landloper]

Better power supplies are not needed in my opinion, none of us need upgraded power supplies: to me they are a luxury, so perhaps I think of them as desirable rather than necessary.

I'm not suggesting that every power upgrade is worthwhile, or even works for that matter, or that the benefits justify the cost. It is easy enough to come across add-on power supplies that cost nearly as much as or even more than the component they are designed to improve.

I'd argue that the originals are not necessarily 'inadequate' so much as 'may be improved upon', and in general I don't think that manufacturers are mistaken to provide an upgrade path for their products. I have the following luxury add-ons, some of which seem worth having, others less so:

* PSXRs [£450 each] supplying Cyrus amps, and while these power upgrades brought improvements, they did so at a hefty price. For me the benefits didn't justify the outlay. The power upgrades exceed 50% of each main unit's original price. I bought these units early on in my changing over from all in one audio units to hi-fi separates when I was careless of how much I spent. I would be far less likely to buy such items now, or at least I'd take them to on approval. In hindsight buying one secondhand PSXR would have been a much smarter thing to do. A costly lesson for me.

*A Rega TTP [£125], feeding a Rega RP3/Elys 24 combo [£500] a better cost to benefit ratio than the PSXRs, but still over 20% of the cost of the unit it is intended to enhance. In this case the improvements to the sound and the convenience of being to change speeds without having to take off the platter and adjusting the belt seemed worth it to me.

* A Caiman Mk II running off a 12v battery [£27] and the gain made there was definitely worth the modest outlay.

[fatmarley]

The Teddy Pardo article IMO goes quite a way to explain how better implementation of regulators and their circuits "should" lead to a less noisy supply. Would it cost a manufacturer vastly more to use something like this? I built several of his TeddyRegs and Powerregs some years ago after a group buy of the boards on PFM. I have to say that I did not notice a vast improvement in SQ, but then I probably didn't implement them in the best way. As Jez says "In many cases the external power supply is totally irrelevant. EVERYTHING is down to how the power is dealt with inside the main unit".

Prior to fitting Teddyregs, My old budget Cambridge Audio 640v2 CD player was a bit thin sounding and a had a kind of closed-In 2d sort of sound. It got good reviews and I know some people thought It sounded just like any other CDP.
After fitting Teddyregs and a PFM flea, It was much bigger and 3d sounding, with more detail. To me It was a big difference, but I can Imagine some people not hearing much of an Improvement.

[Pieoftheday]

Surely if you introduce a ' better' power supply it will only reap benefits with a 'better' mains lead? :sofa:

[Arkless Electronics]

Prior to fitting Teddyregs, My old budget Cambridge Audio 640v2 CD player was a bit thin sounding and a had a kind of closed-In 2d sort of sound. It got good reviews and I know some people thought It sounded just like any other CDP.
After fitting Teddyregs and a PFM flea, It was much bigger and 3d sounding, with more detail. To me It was a big difference, but I can Imagine some people not hearing much of an Improvement.

Yup. The power at Point Of Load is all that really matters. A good regulator, as close as possible to POL and of vast importance, correct grounding practice, is basically where it's at. Get all this right and whats upstream of it, PSU wise, is largely irrelevant ;)

Because this (and most of the important stuff in fact) is not something which a layman can just "plug 'n play" it gets ignored by enthusiasts whilst "unplug the old one, plug in the new one and there yer go" foo gets pages of debate:) I guess on a site for non technical audiophiles that's how it is of course.... And I can't complain 'cos if everyone knew all this stuff and was competent to fit it I'd be out of a job!:eek::)

[RothwellAudio]

A good regulator, as close as possible to POL and of vast importance, correct grounding practice, is basically where it's at. Get all this right and whats upstream of it, PSU wise, is largely irrelevant ;)

I agree entirely. This is a fact often overlooked by audiophiles, or more likely they're completely unaware of the importance of correct grounding. The noise floor in a circuit can be worsened to a surprising degree just by having a wire or PCB track take the wrong path. At one extreme a circuit can barely work at all with a mis-routed track. At the other extreme, getting the details right can be the difference between perfectly OK performance and great performance.
Doubling the size of the mains transformer is "brute force and ignorance" attempt to get great performance (in my opinion, of course).

[Edward]

Is there a way for us neophytes to test that grounding has been implemented correctly in our systems?

Sent via Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

No, I don't think there is - other than listening to the equipment. The difference between a 50 watt integrated amp that sounds sublime and one that's just ok has very little to do with how expensive the components inside are and everything to do with how elegant and well-implemented the design is.
I remember seeing years ago a DNM pre-amp with what appeared to be a ludicrously complex circuit board with not many components on it but a vast number of tracks. Now I appreciate what it was all about.

[Firebottle]

..... everything to do with how elegant and well-implemented the design is.

Oh how true :thumbsup:

Combine with the KISS principle and you're on to a winner.

[Edward]

No, I don't think there is - other than listening to the equipment.

Oh - I had hoped there would be a simple test - such as a continuity test - to test for and then correct any grounding issues.

But yes I agree that listening is probably the best way.

On the DAC I use there is a ground lift switch - it makes zero difference either way - so I guess there is no ground issue there. Correct? Or is a ground lift switch simply eliminating a ground loop and if one does not exist there will be no difference?

E

[Stratmangler]

On the DAC I use there is a ground lift switch - it makes zero difference either way - so I guess there is no ground issue there. Correct? Or is a ground lift switch simply eliminating a ground loop and if one does not exist there will be no difference?

E

Yup!

[RothwellAudio]

Oh - I had hoped there would be a simple test - such as a continuity test - to test for and then correct any grounding issues.

But yes I agree that listening is probably the best way.

On the DAC I use there is a ground lift switch - it makes zero difference either way - so I guess there is no ground issue there. Correct? Or is a ground lift switch simply eliminating a ground loop and if one does not exist there will be no difference?

E

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. By "correct grounding" I wasn't referring to the way a collection of sources/preamps/amps are connected, rather the way that individual elements within a circuit are connected on a PCB, ie the way the 0V tracks are routed. It's an easy mistake to think that 0 volts (or earth, or ground or whatever term you prefer) is a black hole that all the rubbish goes into and all points at 0V are the same, but that's not true. Current flows down those tracks and one end of a track can be very different from the other.

On the macro scale yes, you're correct that if a ground loop doesn't exist then it can't be broken by using an earth lift switch.

[Arkless Electronics]

No, I don't think there is - other than listening to the equipment. The difference between a 50 watt integrated amp that sounds sublime and one that's just ok has very little to do with how expensive the components inside are and everything to do with how elegant and well-implemented the design is.
I remember seeing years ago a DNM pre-amp with what appeared to be a ludicrously complex circuit board with not many components on it but a vast number of tracks. Now I appreciate what it was all about.

Indeed. Audiophiles obsess far too much on "component quality" and "boutique capacitors" etc. The design of the circuitry itself, the ground layout and the correct provision of power at Point Of Load completely swamps any effects from fancy components.

[fatmarley]

correct grounding practice

Here's the correct grounding practice In a Naim preamp :lol:

Star Earth Mod (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18261&page=9)

http://www.in-your-mind.com/wirehassle.jpg

[Arkless Electronics]

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. By "correct grounding" I wasn't referring to the way a collection of sources/preamps/amps are connected, rather the way that individual elements within a circuit are connected on a PCB, ie the way the 0V tracks are routed. It's an easy mistake to think that 0 volts (or earth, or ground or whatever term you prefer) is a black hole that all the rubbish goes into and all points at 0V are the same, but that's not true. Current flows down those tracks and one end of a track can be very different from the other.

On the macro scale yes, you're correct that if a ground loop doesn't exist then it can't be broken by using an earth lift switch.

Ah beat me to it!:) It's sometimes regarded as a bit of a "black art" but it's certainly something that is usually the biggest cause of problems in home made kit etc... It's surprising how often less than good grounding practice is found in commercial kit as well! It can be hard for the lay man to get his head around why you cant get a piece of bare wire, connect it to ground at one end and run it the length of the amp and then connect all the things that need to go to ground to this piece of wire... not if you want good performance anyway... sometimes the unit will not even work properly and burst into oscillation!

At its extreme, in ultimate quality voltage regulators I've designed and built, the exact manner in which earthing is done is so critical that even though the ground connections are of very thick wire and only an inch or so long they have to be just right for it to work at all!!

[Arkless Electronics]

Here's the correct grounding practice In a Naim preamp :lol:

Star Earth Mod (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18261&page=9)

http://www.in-your-mind.com/wirehassle.jpg

Oh dear..... Naim are actually very good at getting the grounding right!

[RothwellAudio]

Here's the correct grounding practice In a Naim preamp :lol:

Star Earth Mod (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18261&page=9)

http://www.in-your-mind.com/wirehassle.jpg
That's beautiful :doh:


... sometimes the unit will not even work properly and burst into oscillation!


I learned that one the hard way! :lol:

[Edward]

Perhaps we're talking at cross purposes. By "correct grounding" I wasn't referring to the way a collection of sources/preamps/amps are connected, rather the way that individual elements within a circuit are connected on a PCB, ie the way the 0V tracks are routed. It's an easy mistake to think that 0 volts (or earth, or ground or whatever term you prefer) is a black hole that all the rubbish goes into and all points at 0V are the same, but that's not true. Current flows down those tracks and one end of a track can be very different from the other.

On the macro scale yes, you're correct that if a ground loop doesn't exist then it can't be broken by using an earth lift switch.Sorry I ought to have paid more attention and understood you were talking about internal grounding.

But back to my point. So there is no easy way of checking correct grounding *between* items other than listening?

On a similar note I see that some producers (eg Vertex?) sell items with additional ground/earth wires on the basis that it (can) radically improve sound. Do you know what the theory is behind all that - or is it just mumbo jumbo?

E

Sent via Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

The Vertex stuff appears to be mumbo-jumbo to me.
As for checking grounding between items, that's a complete can of worms. Balanced equipment is supposed to solve all those grounding problems, yet not all balanced equipment is grounded the same way. Even the term "ground" is ambiguous. The 0V reference point of a circuit doesn't have to have any connection the planet Earth via the mains green/yellow wire, but it is often referred to as "ground". However, the metalwork needs to be connected to mains earth for safety. So what does "ground" mean? It seems to mean different things to different people, or at least the term is often used very loosely.
Sorry, that's a rubbish answer to your question. Best I can do though.

[Edward]

Thanks Andrew, that is very helpful.

I'm glad you are patient with my rambling, and probably nonsensical, questions. :rolleyes:

In this quest of the 'art' of sound all I'm trying to do is to find a way forward that improves my understanding which hopefully stops me going down wrong roads (=expensive) and instead leads me to improved sounds. There has been many times I have added or changed something which led a 'wow' moment and other times (thankfully less) which were simply 'meh'.

E

[Pharos]

The BBC had terms Mains earth and Programme earth.

The latter was entirely about signal connection, avoiding loops and reducing hum, but it was connected at one point to the mains earth.

Star earth connection became the way too remove voltage drops across long series connected wires going to earth.

[Beobloke]

Here's the correct grounding practice In a Naim preamp :lol:

Star Earth Mod (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18261&page=9)

http://www.in-your-mind.com/wirehassle.jpg

Sorry, but what's the problem? Admittedly the pink wire just below the centre could do with being about 3 inches longer but, other than that, I can't see any issues here...;)

[Pharos]

I'm assuming that is a joke.

I have only looked into two pieces of Naim stuff, and they, in a 250, even bent all the wires at right angles to make it look neater.

[RothwellAudio]

I'm assuming that is a joke.

Yes, it's a joke. The amp in the picture has been the subject of numerous DIY mods. I don't think they leave the Naim factory looking like that. :lol:

[Yomanze]

Oh - I had hoped there would be a simple test - such as a continuity test - to test for and then correct any grounding issues.

But yes I agree that listening is probably the best way.

On the DAC I use there is a ground lift switch - it makes zero difference either way - so I guess there is no ground issue there. Correct? Or is a ground lift switch simply eliminating a ground loop and if one does not exist there will be no difference?

E

Correct, my DAC also has a ground lift circuit - if you don't near noise via either of them, then you don't have a grounding issue between the DAC & interconnecting components.

[Yomanze]

Indeed. Audiophiles obsess far too much on "component quality" and "boutique capacitors" etc. The design of the circuitry itself, the ground layout and the correct provision of power at Point Of Load completely swamps any effects from fancy components.

Amen, and to make matters even more interesting, a super-cheapo component can *outperform* boutique components in the right place. Sometimes, in certain places, a boutique component can help, but it does pain me when I see people just adding in expensive components everywhere, not considering how each component works, assuming there'll be an upgrade - sometimes it'll be a downgrade.

[Yomanze]

Ah beat me to it!:) It's sometimes regarded as a bit of a "black art" but it's certainly something that is usually the biggest cause of problems in home made kit etc... It's surprising how often less than good grounding practice is found in commercial kit as well! It can be hard for the lay man to get his head around why you cant get a piece of bare wire, connect it to ground at one end and run it the length of the amp and then connect all the things that need to go to ground to this piece of wire... not if you want good performance anyway... sometimes the unit will not even work properly and burst into oscillation!

At its extreme, in ultimate quality voltage regulators I've designed and built, the exact manner in which earthing is done is so critical that even though the ground connections are of very thick wire and only an inch or so long they have to be just right for it to work at all!!

I wonder how many people have added 'super clocks' to their digital gear and actually increased jitter & power supply noise / ground bounce due to improper grounding...

[Jimbo]

Has the OP got his answer yet?:popcorn:

[Arkless Electronics]

I wonder how many people have added 'super clocks' to their digital gear and actually increased jitter & power supply noise / ground bounce due to improper grounding...

Yep it could well happen.

[Ammonite Audio]

Has the OP got his answer yet?:popcorn:

I think Simon answered the pertinent question some pages back:


Seems like you're missing the point.

You can't put £1000 worth of psu into a product that sells for £100. just like you can't put a engine from a £200,000 Ferrari inside a Fiat that sells for £5,000.

there's nothing broken in a £100 psu, that's just what you get for £100.

Its just that the £500 is better.

If you want better performance open your wallet for it.

The reason psu's are often the apparently cost limited part is that they are easier to substitute within a design. Any tit can plug in a new psu. Designing an amplifier to have a swappable output stage would be an altogether more difficult task and that's why it doesn't happen.


There nothing wrong with the performance of a cheap psu, it performs as a cheap psu is expected to perform. It's just that more expensive psu's can be better, much better.