Do I get a SUT?

[lovejoy]

Hi all,
Well, here's the story. I replaced my Dynavector L300/HX1.2 last year for the NAD Masters Series M12/M22 combination, which overall I've been over the moon with. The only drawback to the new amps is that they lack the widely configurable phono stage that the Dynavetor had that allowed me to set gain and capacitance settings for my DV20X2L MC cartridge perfectly. The NAD pre has an MC input, but there are no adjustments that can be made and given the low output of the DV, it gets a little noisy.

As an experiment earlier this year and having read lots of good things, I bought a Shure M55e MM. That has worked an absolute treat and I've been back enjoying my vinyl again. It has also illustrated how good the MM stage is on the NAD, even if it is sampling the incoming signal at 48KHz. I am kind of itching to return to my DV though, so I wondered whether a step up transformer may be the way to go. I'm loathe to buy an outboard phono stage as having reduced my box count after swapping the amps, I'd like to keep it that way, but accommodating a step up transformer would be fine.

If a SUT sounds to make good sense, can anyone offer any recommendations on particular units? I must admit it's something I'd never really considered before. Budget is 'don't go crazy' ;-).

[Ammonite Audio]

SUTs can bring pleasure and pain in equal measure - get a good match and often it results in musical heaven, but there are a great number of pretty ordinary (eg dull) SUTs around and you really need to try one before buying. Don't rule out an active MC head amp, though - these will often give you much greater flexibility with gain and effective loading. For a digital amplifier, you most definitely don't want to have too much gain because overloading the ADC only means awful digital distortion.

I have no experience of his products, but I'd chat to Rothwell Audio (of this parish) since he produces both SUTs and head amps at reasonable prices.

[walpurgis]

Don't be tempted by a cheap SUT. Most are pretty dire. A decent one is a treat though. On the used market, the cheapest good sounding SUT I've used is the Fidelity Research FRT-3. The larger FRT-5 can also be occasionally be found. Both sound very nice and are compatible with most Japanese MC's and also Ortofons. The FRT-3 has switchable 30 ohm or 10 ohm settings and also a bypass, should you wish to mount an MM. I've noticed prices are rising these days. Most on offer tend to be from Japan.

[RothwellAudio]

Your cartridge has a source impedance of 5 ohms and an output voltage of 0.3mV (if I've got the correct specs). The low source impedance is good and means it will go nicely with a transformer (no worries about bass). The output voltage is low, but not low enough to be a problem.
If you wanted to consider one of the step-up transformers that I offer the MCL (turns ratio 1:20) would be my choice.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/mc_step-up_transformer.html

A cheaper alternative would be the MC1. Its core material isn't as good as the MCL and its bandwidth is less, but in practice it's really not all that far behind the MCL in terms of musical performance in a system.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/moving_coil_step-up_transforme.html

As Hugo mentioned above (thank you) a headamp is a viable alternative to a step-up transformer. It will raise the output of the cartridge up to MM level but do it with transistors rather than transformers. The Headspace that I offer has four gain settings and eight load impedance settings and will work well with your cartridge. It's also cheaper than the MCL.
http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/html/headspace_mc_headamp.html

[lovejoy]

Wow, that was a pretty comprehensive and unanimous set of answers. Thanks guys.

I was already having a good read of your site Andrew when Hugo stepped in with the recommendation (thank you Hugo). I have to say I'm very much intrigued by the idea of what a SUT could do in my system and your recommendation of the MCL, particularly with my cartridge sounds like a solid one. Those specs of the DV20X2L sound correct to me. I seem to remember those figures from when I was originally setting it up with the DV phono stage. I was a little torn between liking the flexibility of the head-amp if in the future I move to another cartridge with different output voltage and impedance, but the draw is definitely towards the SUT.
I'm going to have to wait a couple of weeks to order one as I'm about to move house - escaping Wiltshire for Shropshire - but I've just been convinced in record time that it's the way to go ;-).
Many thanks!

[MikeMusic]

My Ortofon SUT was a big step up in sound quality

[hifi_dave]

Probably obvious but you do need a good SUT or head-amp. The reason some prefer MM cartridges is that many MC step ups are junk and the cartridge sinks or swims on the quality of the step up.

Rothwell products are great and good value. You won't go wrong with anything from them.

[IslandPink]

Talk to Sowter and put it in a box yourself. No need to spend hundreds !

[julesd68]

I'm still loving the Fidelity FRT-3 that I bought from Geoff - a remarkably transparent bit of kit...

[RothwellAudio]

The FRT-3 has two turns ratio options and true to form they're labelled in the most confusing way possible (to my mind at least). One option is labelled as "30 ohms" and it has a turns ratio of 1:20. That would be the option to use with the OP's Dynavector cartridge, despite the DV cartridge having an internal impedance of 5 ohms.
The second option is labelled as "10 ohms" and has a turns ratio of 1:40. That's too high a ratio for the Dynavector despite the labelled impedance being closer to the cartridge's source impedance.

Still, you can't do any damage by trying both options and it would be worth trying both just to find out what it sounds like when you get it "wrong". It usually doesn't sound all that wrong anyway.

[Barry]

The FRT-3 has two turns ratio options and true to form they're labelled in the most confusing way possible (to my mind at least). One option is labelled as "30 ohms" and it has a turns ratio of 1:20. That would be the option to use with the OP's Dynavector cartridge, despite the DV cartridge having an internal impedance of 5 ohms.
The second option is labelled as "10 ohms" and has a turns ratio of 1:40. That's too high a ratio for the Dynavector despite the labelled impedance being closer to the cartridge's source impedance.

Still, you can't do any damage by trying both options and it would be worth trying both just to find out what it sounds like when you get it "wrong". It usually doesn't sound all that wrong anyway.

Agree about the confusing labelling. I've always thought the labelling of Japanese SUTs was not the impedance presented to the cartridge by the SUT, but the source impedance of the cartridge for which the SUT setting is appropriate. But this does not seem to apply to the FR designs.

Taking 47KOhm as the load impedance of the phonostage, a 1:20 turns ratio SUT will present an impedance to the cartridge of ~ 120 Ohm (or 4x the labelled figure). A 1:20 turns ratio will reduce this figure to ~ 30 Ohm (or 3x the labelled figure).

However such speculations are academic because, as you rightly say, choose whichever setting sounds best.

[RothwellAudio]

I've always thought the labelling of Japanese SUTs was not the impedance presented to the cartridge by the SUT, but the source impedance of the cartridge for which the SUT setting is appropriate.
Yes, I think that is what they mean. However, they seem to pay no heed to the cartridge's output voltage as if that was irrelevant. :scratch:

[lovejoy]

Thanks Dave - That was my supposition. The MM stage in the NAD seems very good indeed and I have been seriously enjoying what spending £70 on a vintage Shure has done on my deck. When I bought that DV cart though, I was very fond of it, but there's just no way of matching it into the MC stage of the NAD so it definitely sounds as if a SUT is the way to go.

Mark, as much as I like the DIY route and the potential savings, finishing things and putting them into boxes has never really been my strong point. I imagine a case is going to be a serious factor when it comes to something like a SUT as well, so I'd feel better sticking with the guys who know what they're doing in this instance, but thanks for the heads up on Sowter ;-).

Well that's another recommendation on the Rothwell, so there will be an order heading your way as soon as I have the hi-fi setup in the new house and the dust has settled... Thanks again all.

[OD1]

Hi Rich,
I use a Rothwell MCL with the same cartridge as yours, into a Croft 25R MM phono stage, it sounds great to my ears.
However, I had a problem with hum when I connected the earth lead from my TT to the MCL then to the Pre, which disappeared when I earthed the TT to the Pre only.

Andrew,
Will the SQ suffer if the MCL is not earthed ?

[RothwellAudio]

Andrew,
Will the SQ suffer if the MCL is not earthed ?
No, the SQ will not suffer. The way you have it connected is correct. The earth post is there if needed in other set-ups which are earthed differently. In your system removing the extra earth wire cured the hum, so that's correct.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi all,
Well, here's the story. I replaced my Dynavector L300/HX1.2 last year for the NAD Masters Series M12/M22 combination, which overall I've been over the moon with. The only drawback to the new amps is that they lack the widely configurable phono stage that the Dynavetor had that allowed me to set gain and capacitance settings for my DV20X2L MC cartridge perfectly. The NAD pre has an MC input, but there are no adjustments that can be made and given the low output of the DV, it gets a little noisy.

As an experiment earlier this year and having read lots of good things, I bought a Shure M55e MM. That has worked an absolute treat and I've been back enjoying my vinyl again. It has also illustrated how good the MM stage is on the NAD, even if it is sampling the incoming signal at 48KHz. I am kind of itching to return to my DV though, so I wondered whether a step up transformer may be the way to go. I'm loathe to buy an outboard phono stage as having reduced my box count after swapping the amps, I'd like to keep it that way, but accommodating a step up transformer would be fine.

If a SUT sounds to make good sense, can anyone offer any recommendations on particular units? I must admit it's something I'd never really considered before. Budget is 'don't go crazy' ;-).

Can't help you with recommendations for a particular brand, because my SUT was hand made for me. But I must say that it makes a difference in my setup. For the lack of a better word, I would describe the sound I'm getting with the SUT into the MM phono as more 'organic'. Switching back to the MC phono gives me a bit more 'electronic' type of sound (if those epithets even mean anything in the realm of sound reproduction quality).

[julesd68]

Agree about the confusing labelling. I've always thought the labelling of Japanese SUTs was not the impedance presented to the cartridge by the SUT, but the source impedance of the cartridge for which the SUT setting is appropriate. But this does not seem to apply to the FR designs.

Taking 47KOhm as the load impedance of the phonostage, a 1:20 turns ratio SUT will present an impedance to the cartridge of ~ 120 Ohm (or 4x the labelled figure). A 1:20 turns ratio will reduce this figure to ~ 30 Ohm (or 3x the labelled figure).

However such speculations are academic because, as you rightly say, choose whichever setting sounds best.

Yes I nearly drove myself mad trying to do the maths with my FRT-3.
Thing is it sounds wonderful so I stopped worrying about it. I tried both settings and one was just marginally preferable over the other ...

[Jason P]

I'm loving my Lounge Audio Copla variable SUT. I don't pretend to understand fully how it works, but work it does.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/lounge/2.html

[RothwellAudio]

I'm loving my Lounge Audio Copla variable SUT. I don't pretend to understand fully how it works, but work it does.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/lounge/2.html

That is not a step-up transformer - it's a headamp. Also, it's a headamp with one particular drawback in my opinion. One of the advantages of a headamp over a step-up transformer is that it's possible to set the gain and load impedance independently of each other, but the with Copla that isn't the case because changing the gain also changes the load impedance and vice versa.
I've never heard the Louge Audio Copla so I can't comment on its sound quality.

[bob4333]

Life is about to get interesting. The Rothwell Headspace is the piece of kit that I've had in my head for years thinking "If only someone made something that ........................", but didn't know anyone did. I'd considered SUT's but they seem a bit too bespoke, being tailored to a particular cartridge.

I want to hear what it does with my AT33 PTG/II, but more importantly to see what happens with an SAE 1000LT that I have. A HOMC (2,5mV @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec), an output too much for the MC input on my phono stage and not enough for the MM input. The MC input gives an extremely lively but ultimately slightly over driven distorted sound, whilst the MM input sounds a bit ordinary and lifeless. This is a staggeringly capable cartridge that can deliver dynamic range in spades when partnered well. I'm hoping the Headspace will give me the flexibility to adjust matters.

Just had a dip into the toy money pot and ordered one, delivery around Wednesday. We'll see.:)

[OD1]

No, the SQ will not suffer. The way you have it connected is correct. The earth post is there if needed in other set-ups which are earthed differently. In your system removing the extra earth wire cured the hum, so that's correct.

Thanks Andrew

[Frazeur1]

Or just buy the Dynavector P75 phono stage....Yes it will be another small box and wall wart.

[Arkless Electronics]

Life is about to get interesting. The Rothwell Headspace is the piece of kit that I've had in my head for years thinking "If only someone made something that ........................", but didn't know anyone did. I'd considered SUT's but they seem a bit too bespoke, being tailored to a particular cartridge.

I want to hear what it does with my AT33 PTG/II, but more importantly to see what happens with an SAE 1000LT that I have. A HOMC (2,5mV @ 1kHz, 5cm/sec), an output too much for the MC input on my phono stage and not enough for the MM input. The MC input gives an extremely lively but ultimately slightly over driven distorted sound, whilst the MM input sounds a bit ordinary and lifeless. This is a staggeringly capable cartridge that can deliver dynamic range in spades when partnered well. I'm hoping the Headspace will give me the flexibility to adjust matters.

Just had a dip into the toy money pot and ordered one, delivery around Wednesday. We'll see.:)

It should overload in the same way as your MC input! Either the head amp or the MM stage overloading with the 50mV or so output from the head amp... HOMC's are also usually designed to work into 47K and most head amps have an input loading of 100R - 1K unless modified for 47K loading.

[RothwellAudio]

It should overload in the same way as your MC input! Either the head amp or the MM stage overloading with the 50mV or so output from the head amp... HOMC's are also usually designed to work into 47K and most head amps have an input loading of 100R - 1K unless modified for 47K loading.

The Headspace has a 10dB gain setting and it won't be overloaded, nor will the following MM stage. 10dB is a touch on the hot side for a 2.5mV cartridge but will be fine.
The Headspace also has adjustable input impedance and the 1500 ohm setting (the highest) should be ok too. I'm not exactly sure what the source impedance of the SAE cartridge is but I think a 1500 ohm load will be ok.

[Arkless Electronics]

The Headspace has a 10dB gain setting and it won't be overloaded, nor will the following MM stage. 10dB is a touch on the hot side for a 2.5mV cartridge but will be fine.
The Headspace also has adjustable input impedance and the 1500 ohm setting (the highest) should be ok too. I'm not exactly sure what the source impedance of the SAE cartridge is but I think a 1500 ohm load will be ok.

Aha yes that should be ok then. Not many head amps have a setting for such low gain... That should give about 8mV then.
The 1500R setting is still a bit low IMO for a HOMC but it will certainly work yes.

[WESTLOWER]

Do I get a SUT?

this may be of interest
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?52387-AD-Audio-Jfet-MC-amplifier

[lovejoy]

Thanks Adam,
That certainly piqued my interest and ticked the 'something a bit out of the ordinary' box that I'm a sucker for ;-). I got in touch with David via Facebook and ordered one which arrived this morning. Only managed a quick listen before work having re-fitted my DV DV20X2L last night in anticipation of it arriving.
Initial impressions are 'Holy moley!'. I'll write something a bit more descriptive once I've had a couple of evenings to a. get the cartridge aligned properly and b. a few more hours to listen to it.
Thanks for the heads up..

[lovejoy]

Well, it has certainly done the trick. I've now got my DVX20L going through the 'Little Gate' into the MM stage of my NAD M12 pre and there is no more noise, no hiss and plenty of gain. I've never heard such low background noise from LP before and this little box just seems to let everything the cartridge is doing flow through with nothing added and nothing taken away. I've found myself digging through my collection for stuff I've not listened to in years and hearing it all as if anew. It has become a total addiction over the last few days. The music just flows and jumps out of the speakers at you with a MASSIVE soundstage, incredible agility in the bass and that natural sweet treble that only the best analogue is capable of. Bearing in mind that this ultimately replaces the Dynavector P-300 phono stage in my old L-300 which was no slouch, this is a great big step up.

If you've got a good MC and a good MM input on your amp, I can't recommend this enough. What you get out of it is well above what you'll pay for it.

If I have one minor little gripe it's getting at the batteries to take them out for charging. I made the mistake of leaving it switched on overnight the first night and by the evening of the next day it had run flat (although it's also possible that the batteries were not fully charged to begin with). The box has to be unscrewed to take the batteries out to charge them which is a little fiddly, but now that I've ordered a couple of spare 9V batteries of much higher capacity, I'll not have to sit without vinyl again for an evening and the replacements should last a lot longer between charges.

[RothwellAudio]

So that's a "no" then - you don't get a SUT.

[WESTLOWER]

Well, it has certainly done the trick. I've now got my DVX20L going through the 'Little Gate' into the MM stage of my NAD M12 pre and there is no more noise, no hiss and plenty of gain. I've never heard such low background noise from LP before and this little box just seems to let everything the cartridge is doing flow through with nothing added and nothing taken away. I've found myself digging through my collection for stuff I've not listened to in years and hearing it all as if anew. It has become a total addiction over the last few days. The music just flows and jumps out of the speakers at you with a MASSIVE soundstage, incredible agility in the bass and that natural sweet treble that only the best analogue is capable of. Bearing in mind that this ultimately replaces the Dynavector P-300 phono stage in my old L-300 which was no slouch, this is a great big step up.

If you've got a good MC and a good MM input on your amp, I can't recommend this enough. What you get out of it is well above what you'll pay for it.

If I have one minor little gripe it's getting at the batteries to take them out for charging. I made the mistake of leaving it switched on overnight the first night and by the evening of the next day it had run flat (although it's also possible that the batteries were not fully charged to begin with). The box has to be unscrewed to take the batteries out to charge them which is a little fiddly, but now that I've ordered a couple of spare 9V batteries of much higher capacity, I'll not have to sit without vinyl again for an evening and the replacements should last a lot longer between charges.

Hi Richard, i'm pleased you like it.
your findings are exactly what I found. It's an incredible bargain for the price point and a total no brainer. As i said previously in a post, it gave my Hashimoto HM-7 SUT an extremely close race!
If you are finding the internal battery approach a pain, David also offers a unit with a PSU which of course illuminates the need for Battery.
I must say I have not had an issue with leaving it on after playing, and the batteries have lasted a long time... I reckon the bright blue light on the front may give you a clue it's still on :lol:
An uncomplicated, very good value for money approach that gives amazing vinyl playback results. Simple!

[lovejoy]

To be fair I was more disappointed that I was going to have to spend Saturday night without vinyl having not had any more 9V batteries around the house at the time than I was with having to unscrew the box to remove and refit the batteries. That won't happen again. I've also got used to turning the box off when not in use. There's no warm up time so there's no need to leave it on.

That LED is rather bright. It's made for a very handy little cueing light for my deck in the dark seeing as it's sat right next to it ;-).

[WESTLOWER]

indeed It is a bit bright!!
Take note David for the MK2... softer bulb :lol:

[petrat]

This doesn't surprise me at all, having dealt with David (AD Audio) before ... extremely knowledgable, very enthusiastic, and a really nice chap too. Highly recommended if you need valve amp repairs in the London area :thumbsup:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?112-AD-Audio