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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 19:00
Phonostage bake off


Not long back from the bake-off and i have to say, it was really good. Lots of very expensive kit but equally as impressive were the performances.

The reference unit used for the BO was a MFA MM phono stage with a SUT. All designed and built by Nick Gorham. The Amps were LDA monoblocks (Nicks again) and a prototype TT. A VDH retipped DL103R performed the cartridge duties. Yamaha N1000M speakers.

So, here is how the various stages sounded to me.

Longdog JFET phono stage: £2000 (Nick Gorham design and build)

I am afraid i didn't manage to get too much info other than the cost but i kid you not, It was fantastic. Solid, full of attack, sustain, silky smooth, delicate, i could go on and probably should! . Everything was just as i would want it to be, tonally accurate, slamming bass, great leading edge to a note, Huge sound stage, precise imaging. WOW. It just hit everything with pin point accuracy. Hard to describe but you'd want one if you heard it.

Firebottle Vivant (provided in a KIN preamp): £1100

Hugely impressive performance. Lots of air in this presentation. Liquid treble, smooth midrange with loads of detail and a wicket 3D image. Scale and depth in abundance and excellent channel separation. It really sucks you in to the performance. The transparency is divine and its ability to deliver the intricacies of a track, really to shine through. One area i felt the Longdog exposed was the weight of the sound. The Vivant is airy, free and delivers a wonderfully insightful and unfatigued performance, I think if the weight was added to the sound, it'd be hard to beat at this price point.

NVA Phono 2 with extra power supply: £680 - £700

Well, if i had £700 to spend on a phono stage, this is what i would buy. Energetic, powerful, engaging, precise, detailed and a whole lot of musicality. I am really pleased i have had the chance to hear this. It started well and got better, the snare was sharp, twangy and had real snap. The drums really stood out due to the attack and the tonality was excellent. It was crystal clear and pin point. It never lost focus in the busy areas of the songs and the bass was delivered with heft and grip. I am incredibly impressed with this phono stage. Excellent.

Firebottle OTP MK2 : £300

Another typical Firebottle sounding device! Somehow, this unit is very similar to the Vivant in voicing. There is a similarity in space, soundstage, liquidity of the treble and midrange and the bass is very well held together and delivered with impetus. Timing and rhythm are easy to follow and the tonality is spot on. Plenty of scale and it digs very low. I think this Phonostage is incredibly accurate with tonal realism. This is a very smooth performer. Opamp rolling is an option here so fine tuning the sound is at the owners discretion and i really like this.

NVA Phono 1: £280- £300

A very good sounding unit but for me, it sounded a bit lost trying to deliver the cymbals on the test track. Admittedly, I am not a huge fan of jazz but the timing of the test track seemed hard to follow. It also seemed the treble was slightly overpowering and i found myself not listening to the song but rather trying to follow the cymbals. It shares a lot of the good qualities from the Phono 2 which is very impressive and its very enjoyable. There wasn't a lot between this and the OTP MK2 but in terms of overall clarity, I felt this lost out a smidgen.

I've only heard this unit once and it was with a track i didn't really like, so it may be a victim of the track. I'd prefer to try this again with a few familiar tracks before passing final judgment.


Furutech MDL £400

To me, this was awful. Thin, toppy and splashy. Next to no Mid randge and hardly any bottom end. Narrow soundstage and absolutely no depth. AVOID


There were a couple of other stages, but as they are not commercially available to buy i haven't included them.

karma67
06-08-2017, 19:18
great write up mate :)

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 19:20
great write up mate :)Cheers mate

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Jimbo
06-08-2017, 19:22
Nice write up Oli although a bit of a limited selection of phono stages with 2 Firebottles and 2 NVA. Not surprised Nicks came out on top. Would have been good to have seen/ heard some other makes there?

The OTP looks like it is best bang for bucks reading your review and would be a great starter phono stage for those getting into vinyl. Like the fact it is also MM and MC.

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 19:25
Nice write up Oli although a bit of a limited selection of phono stages with 2 Firebottles and 2 NVA. Not surprised Nicks came out on top. Would have been good to have seen/ heard some other makes there?

The OTP looks like it is best bang for bucks reading your review and would be a great starter phono stage for those getting into vinyl. Like the fact it is also MM and MC.To be fair Jimbo, that NVA1 is a good unit. I wish they had played a more suitable track, although one could argue it should've been able to play anything but as the OTP didn't get to play the same track, it's hard to harsh on the NVA phono1 The OTP is a good unit and yes, definitely my pick for a first upgrade.


The Nick Gorham stuff was outstanding. Can't rate it highly enough.

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Lee Henley
06-08-2017, 19:27
Nice write up, the OTP is fantastic for the money, had it last week and it performed admirably. Did the Tron get a run out

Jimbo
06-08-2017, 19:27
To be fair Jimbo, that NVA1 is a good unit. I wish they had played a more suitable track. The OTP is a good unit and yes, definitely my pick for a first upgrade


The Nick Gorham stuff was outstanding. Can't rate it highly enough.

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Yep I have heard his top phono stage I think it's around £10,000:eek: but it is absolutely wonderful.

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 19:28
Nice write up, the OTP is fantastic for the money, had it last week and it performed admirably. Did the Tron get a run outIt did. I didn't do a write-up as it's a one off. It did very well though. I think I preferred the OTP MK2 though. Doing further testing at home though as it only got one track.

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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 19:29
Yep I have heard his top phono stage I think it's around £10,000:eek: but it is absolutely wonderful.It's divine. There's no other description necessary lol.

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brian2957
06-08-2017, 20:01
Nice write up Oliver , thanks for taking the time to post this up . After a visit to Alans place in January and hearing some of his gear I have ordered one of his OTP phono stages . Expected soon :)

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:04
Nice write up Oliver , thanks for taking the time to post this up . After a visit to Alans place in January and hearing some of his gear I have ordered one of his OTP phono stages . Expected soon :)

Good choice, Brian. I can't imagine you being anything but delighted mate. It's a very good phonostage. What happened to the croft? or is this a second unit for another room?

YNWaN
06-08-2017, 20:07
A friend has just bought a Tron Convergence - I'll hear it next weekend against my usual reference :)

Jimbo
06-08-2017, 20:11
Good choice, Brian. I can't imagine you being anything but delighted mate. It's a very good phonostage. What happened to the croft? or is this a second unit for another room?

Brian's Croft is a linestage preamp only.:)

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:11
A friend has just bought a Tron Convergence - I'll hear it next weekend against my usual reference :)Ah, that'll be interesting. Let me know what you think. What's your reference?

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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:12
Brian's Croft is a linestage preamp only.:)Oh! That makes sense.

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brian2957
06-08-2017, 20:15
Brian's Croft is a linestage preamp only.:)

Cheers Oliver . As James says I need a separate phono stage and I decided if I want to do the vinyl thing properly I need a decent one .

cre009
06-08-2017, 20:15
I have the Furutech ADL GT40a which I believe you were listening to here. I really like the device as a multi purpose unit that will perform as a high quality ADC, headphone amp and playback pre amp. I previously commented on its performance as a Phono Stage in a thread at Vinyl Engine where I remarked that quality was a bit below that of the Cambridge Audio Phono stage I also own.

It is no surprise to me that it is outclassed by other dedicated phono stages but reviewing only as a phono stage does ignore other stuff which as a unit it does very well indeed.

Jimbo
06-08-2017, 20:18
Cheers Oliver . As James says I need a separate phono stage and I decided if I want to do the vinyl thing properly I need a decent one .

Sorry I jumped in there Brian. I think the OTP Firebottle will sound wonderful through the Croft.

brian2957
06-08-2017, 20:30
Sorry I jumped in there Brian. I think the OTP Firebottle will sound wonderful through the Croft.

No problem James :) I'm really looking forward to getting this phono stage :)

sq225917
06-08-2017, 20:30
Ah, that'll be interesting. Let me know what you think. What's your reference?

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C'mon, you can guess...

I'll be popping in to David's this week for a dac demo, might take my phono with me for shits and giggles.

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:33
I have the Furutech ADL GT40a which I believe you were listening to here. I really like the device as a multi purpose unit that will perform as a high quality ADC, headphone amp and playback pre amp. I previously commented on its performance as a Phono Stage in a thread at Vinyl Engine where I remarked that quality was a bit below that of the Cambridge Audio Phono stage I also own.

It is no surprise to me that it is outclassed by other dedicated phono stages but reviewing only as a phono stage does ignore other stuff which as a unit it does very well indeed.

Thats fair comment. We were only testing the phonostage part which is why i focused on that part.

YNWaN
06-08-2017, 20:33
Ah, that'll be interesting. Let me know what you think. What's your reference?

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Reference is a fully loaded Paradise.
---------

Great write-up Oliver - excellent in fact :).

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:34
Reference is a fully loaded Paradise.
---------

Great write-up Oliver - excellent in fact :).Thanks Mark. It's already drawing criticism in other sectors but it's honest. Can't be anything but really.

The Paradise is on my "to hear" list

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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:35
C'mon, you can guess...

I'll be popping in to David's this week for a dac demo, might take my phono with me for shits and giggles.🤣

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YNWaN
06-08-2017, 20:39
Thanks Mark. It's already drawing criticism in other sectors but it's honest. Can't be anything but really.

The Paradise is on my "to hear" list

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I'm sure it is Oliver, but honestly, who gives a toss?
-----
Si, I'll come with you to Dave's if there is a free seat?

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 20:40
I'm sure it is Oliver, but honestly, who gives a toss?
-----
Si, I'll come with you to Dave's if there is a free seat?Very true.

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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 22:26
Well the verdicts are coming in and seems NVA have done very well. The big winner seems to be in agreement with my thoughts that the price for the product is an excellent ratio. The NVA Phono 2 with extra PSU really was very good.

Everyone hears differently and I'm no different. Good kit on display today.

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walpurgis
06-08-2017, 22:28
Shame there wasn't a Graham Slee there.

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 22:29
Shame there wasn't a Graham Slee there.Yes mate I'd like to hear one. The Paradise too.

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YNWaN
06-08-2017, 23:10
Well the verdicts are coming in ...,,

Are they - where?

Bigbird
06-08-2017, 23:10
Nice comparison oliver...
Did you use your OTP with the bursons in or the op amps that Alan supplies??
Im thinking for an extra 60 quid i may ask Alan if its possible to sling some in mine while its back with him for the upgrades so its the best it can be upon return.
Or is there not much in it?

Bigman80
06-08-2017, 23:34
Are they - where?Everywhere else mate. Mainly Audio Talk.

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Bigman80
06-08-2017, 23:37
Nice comparison oliver...
Did you use your OTP with the bursons in or the op amps that Alan supplies??
Im thinking for an extra 60 quid i may ask Alan if its possible to sling some in mine while its back with him for the upgrades so its the best it can be upon return.
Or is there not much in it?He used the standard ones. In my opinion the Bursons raise its game. I don't want you to spend £60 on my opinion though! I have them in mine and I like them.

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Bigbird
07-08-2017, 06:00
I don't think 60quid is that much of an issue realy if it adds a bit more. Il have a word with alan and if he also thinks they were slightly better than I will see if he will go for it... the way I see it is if I'm sending it all the way back then I may aswell get it returned in the best possible performance it can be as my speakers and amp are next on the list for upgrade.

Bigman80
07-08-2017, 06:18
I don't think 60quid is that much of an issue realy if it adds a bit more. Il have a word with alan and if he also thinks they were slightly better than I will see if he will go for it... the way I see it is if I'm sending it all the way back then I may aswell get it returned in the best possible performance it can be as my speakers and amp are next on the list for upgrade.Seems a sensible approach to me!


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Bigman80
07-08-2017, 07:23
Where have my posts gone?

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Macca
07-08-2017, 07:32
What posts?

Bigman80
07-08-2017, 07:53
I posted that I rated the NVA 2 highly in a separate bit and it's gone?

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Macca
07-08-2017, 08:00
There are no deleted posts on this thread, so I don't know what happened there.

Bigman80
07-08-2017, 08:10
There are no deleted posts on this thread, so I don't know what happened there.

Ha, my mistake, Macca. I found it lol

YNWaN
07-08-2017, 09:52
Everywhere else mate. Mainly Audio Talk.

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I'm not sure about 'flooding in' :). I've just had a look at the AT forum and other than the background noise from the usual culprits there are a couple of opinions that rate the NVA 2 highly - though it's not clear if this is in an absolute sense or in a 'at its price' sense.

Bigman80
07-08-2017, 09:53
I'm not sure about 'flooding in' :). I've just had a look at the AT forum and other than the background noise from the usual culprits there are a couple of opinions that rate the NVA 2 highly - though it's not clear if this is in an absolute sense or in a 'at its price' sense.Ye, I see what you're saying.

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PalsHuffMor
07-08-2017, 10:03
I'm not sure about 'flooding in' :). I've just had a look at the AT forum and other than the background noise from the usual culprits there are a couple of opinions that rate the NVA 2 highly - though it's not clear if this is in an absolute sense or in a 'at its price' sense.

Nick Gorham & David Brook both give glowing feedback about the NVA stages. Are they the usual culprits?

YNWaN
07-08-2017, 10:06
Did you miss the bit where I wrote 'other than'?


.....there are a couple of opinions that rate the NVA 2 highly - though it's not clear if this is in an absolute sense or in a 'at its price' sense.

So DB and NG would be the two (couple) opinions....

(Dave Brooks deserves a meddle for forgiveness though considering how much abuse he has received from one of the 'usual suspects')

PalsHuffMor
07-08-2017, 10:13
Did you miss the bit where I wrote 'other than'?
I don't think so. Because David & Nick's feedback regarding the NVA stages was glowing in both respects - value for money and absolute sound quality.

YNWaN
07-08-2017, 10:16
Speaking as a dedicated NVA owner you mean.


are they the usual culprits? doesn't make any blooming sense if you actually read the post - don't let that stop you though....

Cycleallday
07-08-2017, 10:22
I have the Furutech ADL GT40a which I believe you were listening to here. I really like the device as a multi purpose unit that will perform as a high quality ADC, headphone amp and playback pre amp. I previously commented on its performance as a Phono Stage in a thread at Vinyl Engine where I remarked that quality was a bit below that of the Cambridge Audio Phono stage I also own.

It is no surprise to me that it is outclassed by other dedicated phono stages but reviewing only as a phono stage does ignore other stuff which as a unit it does very well indeed.

I also own this unit and agree totally with you about it being nothing special from a phono point of view especially when compared to quality kit. As a multi use package it is however very good.

I use it primarily for digitising vinyl and for which it does a great job.

As to the results of the Bake Off and the fact the main focus of the comparisons was alway to be FB & NVA, I doubt there will ever be a concensous unless the reviewers were to be totally independent.

Anyway choice of kit should be down to personal preference as synergy is always a critical factor - as noted even the music is a factor.

No doubt the rants will continue - its a pity as from my perspective they are not adding value to the products or suppliers concerned and are just making the whole discussion environment less interesting (or should i say repetitive and boring).

Mel

Spectral Morn
07-08-2017, 10:43
We have read this all before, same kit, same comparisons and cough same conclusions. How can any conclusions be drawn ? No system information, no info regarding warm up times, were all items run in fully before hand. Were cartridge loadings adjusted for each phonostage. Did the cartridge picked suit all units tested, where in the room did the listeners sit, what kind of room was it, what music was used and I could go on.

Frankly I don't think this type of setting has great value as it has less than ideal set up and time spent and listening off axis or standing up does not paint the whole picture, and in some cases provides a view based on other factors, speakers off axis performance, system synergy, room issues and I could go on.

PalsHuffMor
07-08-2017, 10:50
Speaking as a dedicated NVA owner you mean.

doesn't make any blooming sense if you actually read the post - don't let that stop you though....

Speaking in the interests of clarity and accuracy.

I've long since stopped being precious about the kit that I own. Some of it is NVA, some of it is not. I don't go out to recommend any of it to anyone, I just say listen for yourself. That's why I like bake-offs.

petrat
07-08-2017, 11:26
We have read this all before, same kit, same comparisons and cough same conclusions. How can any conclusions be drawn ? No system information, no info regarding warm up times, were all items run in fully before hand. Were cartridge loadings adjusted for each phonostage. Did the cartridge picked suit all units tested, where in the room did the listeners sit, what kind of room was it, what music was used and I could go on.

Frankly I don't think this type of setting has great value as it has less than ideal set up and time spent and listening off axis or standing up does not paint the whole picture, and in some cases provides a view based on other factors, speakers off axis performance, system synergy, room issues and I could go on.

Exactly. I once had 3 phonostages, 4 SUTs, 6 cartridges, and a couple of preamps in the house .... and the 'ranking order' of each varied depending on partnering equipment. Phonostages (and SUTs) are the most difficult things to get right ime. All that, coupled with the clear pre-dispositions of key participants, makes any worthwhile conclusions from forum reports impossible imo.

Jimbo
07-08-2017, 11:47
Exactly. I once had 3 phonostages, 4 SUTs, 6 cartridges, and a couple of preamps in the house .... and the 'ranking order' of each varied depending on partnering equipment. Phonostages (and SUTs) are the most difficult things to get right ime. All that, coupled with the clear pre-dispositions of key participants, makes any worthwhile conclusions from forum reports impossible imo.

Plus the fact you need to try any piece of kit in your own system to get a handle on what it really sounds like. Listening to equipment hooked up to an unfamiliar system in unfamiliar surroundings only gets you so far in evaluating an audio component.

YNWaN
07-08-2017, 12:30
I just say listen for yourself. That's why I like bake-offs.


Listen for yourself - is the best advice.

I don't think bake-offs are particularly good for forming opinions though, no better than a show at any rate.

Arkless Electronics
07-08-2017, 12:50
As someone mentioned earlier it is important when making Nth degree judgements that all phono stages are capable of presenting the same loading to the cartridge in use, and indeed that the same cart is in fact used in all instances. Precise level matching is also important.

The accuracy of the RIAA EQ is an important area of phono stages which is often overlooked... Accuracy and neutrality should be the goal but it is very easy for a less scrupulous/careful manufacturer to engineer in a bit of bass and treble boost to make everything more "exciting" and "hi-fi";) An adjunct to this is that some units may have the IEC update to the RIAA curve to cut subsonics below 20Hz while many will not. This is certainly audible!

PalsHuffMor
07-08-2017, 12:58
- is the best advice.

I don't think bake-offs are particularly good for forming opinions though, no better than a show at any rate.
I find nearly all bake-offs to be a good deal more informative than shows. Ideally, 4 or 5 people, bringing the kit they already own, in a domestic environment, no manufacturers or dealers needed.

And a bit of scran and a couple of beers...

Macca
07-08-2017, 13:04
I suppose if you want to compare a specific type of component the advantage to a bake off is that you have one system that stays the same and you swap in the components under evaluation, whereas that doesn't happen at a show as each system and room is entirely different.

Still not as good as trying it a home but I think home trial is available for most of these phono stages.

RothwellAudio
07-08-2017, 13:05
Yes, I also think that this kind of comparison has limited value. Consider for example a phonostage that has limited headroom. Using a cartridge with a higher than average output could cause problems whereas a cartridge with lower than average output would not. Such a phonostage might come out as the best of the bunch or the worst of the bunch depending on the cartridge used.
Or what about a phonostage with a less-than-stellar noise performance? With a higher than average output cartridge the noise might go unnoticed (particularly in a room full of muttering audiophiles) but with a particularly low output cartridge listened to in a quiet environment the noise could become objectionable.
Personally, I think this type of bake-off might be fun but as for making absolute declarations regarding the products' relative merits...? Maybe not.

Floyddroid
07-08-2017, 13:13
Sounds like an interesting day out. Oliver's overview was excellent, thanks for writing that Oliver. The Paradise phono stage would definitely been a one to throw into the arena. Having heard Alan Towell's I can confirm that it is something special. Some pictures would have been nice here as I no longer frequent Audio Talk.
Without some kind of a vote as to how the majority of attendees ranked the different devices an all out winner has yet to be announced. All very subjective given that people tastes, hearing and expectations a different. It would have also been interesting to hear a comparison between some on board phono stages and stand alone devices. Well done to Dave for hosting the event.

CageyH
07-08-2017, 13:30
What can be better than having a day out, meeting new people, hearing some music played through some different gear and then having a bit of food and a couple of beers?

We all hear things differently, and want different things so for me bake offs are all a bit of fun.

It is interesting to see the NVA phono 2 being highly rated by the likes of Nick Gorham. It must be a good bit of kit.

It's a shame the bake off was held in a different country as I would have liked to hear some of the kit, although it sounds like the music is not something I am familiar with.

Joe
07-08-2017, 14:42
What can be better than having a day out, meeting new people, hearing some music played through some different gear and then having a bit of food and a couple of beers?

Sex?

Jimbo
07-08-2017, 14:48
Was Firebottle there, have not seen any comment from Alan yet?

Bigman80
07-08-2017, 15:11
Was Firebottle there, have not seen any comment from Alan yet?He was. He's made a long weekend outbid it so probably won't comment until he's back.

I really enjoyed the day and the music (apart from the jazz) was all very good. The reference system was exceptional and it was great to hear all the bits of kit. The NVA phono 2 was quite excellent. I was very impressed.

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Firebottle
07-08-2017, 15:40
He's had his day, whatever I say will be shot down in flames, no matter what.

I'm saying nothing apart from everyones take on audio is different, depending on depth of pocket, previous equipment/listening experience, musical ability, taste in music and personal hearing performance.

Perm any 3 from 5 and come up with a consensus. Fat chance.

mjw
08-08-2017, 06:57
A friend has just bought a Tron Convergence - I'll hear it next weekend against my usual reference :)

Just don't expect to be prising apart subtle nuances in presentation, Mark. They're very different in how they go about the core business. After the initial surprise you might just conclude that you either love or hate what the Tron does.
See you Friday.

Firebottle
08-08-2017, 07:22
..... no info regarding warm up times, were all items run in fully before hand. Were cartridge loadings adjusted for each phonostage.

All kit was fully warmed up beforehand.

NVA MC loading is 470 ohm, not known beforehand, Firebottle MC loading (on the day) was 100 ohm. Make of that what you will.

EDIT Now I've tried it for myself going from 100 to 470 loading on a 103 makes a huge difference to the sound.

Floyddroid
08-08-2017, 07:39
I don't think i have ever heard a Tron phono stage. Are there many dealers in the UK stocking them? Or are they niche products?
Just don't expect to be prising apart subtle nuances in presentation, Mark. They're very different in how they go about the core business. After the initial surprise you might just conclude that you either love or hate what the Tron does.
See you Friday.

mjw
08-08-2017, 07:49
I'd venture niche as they're mostly made to order and eye-wateringly expensive as you go up the range - £10k phono amps and the like. The Convergence is very much the introductory product and when an opportunity arose to try one, curiosity got the better of me.

YNWaN
08-08-2017, 08:58
Just don't expect to be prising apart subtle nuances in presentation, Mark. They're very different in how they go about the core business. After the initial surprise you might just conclude that you either love or hate what the Tron does.
See you Friday.

I'm just interested in expanding my experience mate - looking forward to it immensely (haven't seen you in ages either) :).
_______
As you say, Tron is a very specialised make and the Convergence is very much their cheapest design. Tron is all about reasonably simple valve circuits done with great care and attention to detail - build quality is absolutely fantastic.

Ammonite Audio
08-08-2017, 10:03
All kit was fully warmed up beforehand.

NVA MC loading is 470 ohm, not known beforehand, Firebottle MC loading (on the day) was 100 ohm. Make of that what you will.

EDIT Now I've tried it for myself going from 100 to 470 loading on a 103 makes a huge difference to the sound.

I may be completely wrong here, but I thought the optimum loading for a Denon 103 is 47 ohms.

karma67
08-08-2017, 10:10
All kit was fully warmed up beforehand.

NVA MC loading is 470 ohm, not known beforehand, Firebottle MC loading (on the day) was 100 ohm. Make of that what you will.

EDIT Now I've tried it for myself going from 100 to 470 loading on a 103 makes a huge difference to the sound.

how hard would it be to make it switchable,my nakamichi has 3 loading options,mind you,you'd struggle to hear the difference.

Jimbo
08-08-2017, 11:28
Would have been interesting if this bake off was done blind?

Bigman80
08-08-2017, 11:33
Would have been interesting if this bake off was done blind?Ah, yes. Very interesting indeed

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karma67
08-08-2017, 11:38
Would have been interesting if this bake off was done blind?

or gagged!!:lol:

Firebottle
08-08-2017, 12:00
I now fit extra loading sockets to all my phono stages, as I think it gives the most flexible way of altering the loading to whatever you want.

All that's needed is a phono plug fitted with the required components, or a set of plugs.

RothwellAudio
08-08-2017, 12:14
I may be completely wrong here, but I thought the optimum loading for a Denon 103 is 47 ohms.

The Denon DL-103 has a source impedance of 40 ohms according to Denon's specs, so a load of 47 ohms would be very low and over 5dB of signal would be lost across the cartridge's internal impedance (as opposed to appearing across the phonostage's input).
Using the rule of thumb of having the load impedance ten times greater than the source impedance would suggest 400 ohms as a suitable load.
The DL 103R has a lower source impedance of 14 ohms and its load impedance should be about 140 ohms or more.

Barry
08-08-2017, 12:25
The Denon DL-103 has a source impedance of 40 ohms according to Denon's specs, so a load of 47 ohms would be very low and over 5dB of signal would be lost across the cartridge's internal impedance (as opposed to appearing across the phonostage's input).
Using the rule of thumb of having the load impedance ten times greater than the source impedance would suggest 400 ohms as a suitable load.
The DL 103R has a lower source impedance of 14 ohms and its load impedance should be about 140 ohms or more.

Agreed - I use 390 Ohm loading with my 103, but prefer between 25 to 30x with my EMTs (source impedance 24 Ohm, so a load of 600 - 820 Ohm). For all my Ortofons I use 100 Ohm.

Arkless Electronics
08-08-2017, 12:35
how hard would it be to make it switchable,my nakamichi has 3 loading options,mind you,you'd struggle to hear the difference.

I've always fitted extra parallel sockets for loading plugs on all my phono stages as it offers complete flexibility in the choice of loading. IMO it is also not a good idea to have the usual tiny DIL (dual in line) switch units in use at such a sensitive low level and low impedance part of the signal path... especially as use, age and dirt take their toll...
Cartridges do vary considerably in their sensitivity to changing loading.

anthonyTD
11-08-2017, 17:17
:)
I've always fitted extra parallel sockets for loading plugs on all my phono stages as it offers complete flexibility in the choice of loading. IMO it is also not a good idea to have the usual tiny DIL (dual in line) switch units in use at such a sensitive low level and low impedance part of the signal path... especially as use, age and dirt take their toll...
Cartridges do vary considerably in their sensitivity to changing loading.

joe9407
12-08-2017, 20:23
Sex?

i'll take the bakeoff