Vintage Shure V15's. Which one and why?

[TONEPUB]

Curious as to what you think might be the best of the older V15's and why?

Thanks in advance for the insight!

[DSJR]

I never knew the V15 mk1, but it exists apparently and lives on as the M55E I understand..

The mk2 has an enormous suckout between 2 and 10KHz which can be eq'd out if you know how to re-do the time constants on the RIAA correction. Just adding capacitance isn't really enough for this one. A curio now from a bygone age, way overtaken back then by the ADC 26, XLM and Empire 1000 ZE/X IMO.

The MkIII, which I think was the most popular just got better and better as better styli came along. Originally a bit bland and "nasal," it acquired more subtlety and air with the HE and MR styli. The original suspensions can age as well, so the best bet would be a JICO replacement stylus, the SAS version being quite special I understand. A good cartridge still I think, not least for the trackability on offer, troubling the mk4 version.

The V15 IV was a curates egg, good in parts, but it came along as MC designs were being re-discovered and its over-controlled "neutral" presentation didn't go down too well with the air and ambience full yet poor tracking MC competition. The mkIII was benefitting from a decent stylus revamp and the mkIV wasn't significantly further on yet much more expensive. Again, JICO make some interesting styli for this one.

I LOVE the mk V models. They need proper loading with high capacitance (as do most Shures) but the response on all is strictly curtailed to 20KHz. Properly loaded and in a suitable arm, the mkV can replicate what's really there on the vinyl, but for many it's just not enough. Sonic fireworks and drama is needed and this is where the mkV models can appear to come unstuck. The prices asked went through the roof and again, suspension life can be an issue. There were a number of "Ultra" variants too, but the only one in the UK as far as I can tell was the Ultra 500, an MR with a gold coloured solid mounting making it look more like a moving coil. Ken Kessler concluded that it "educated" rather than "entertained" as, say, a koetsu does.. The cheaper VST-V was an excellent choice, offering most if not all of the V15 model with more "bounce" for want of a better word - great in a Planar 3 I found..

I used my V15VMR as a reference until the hard but brittle cantilever was bust by accident. JICO have just announced a replacement stylus which, lacking the beryllium cantilever, should still be as good or better in most respects.

Cartridge prices today are all over the shop. The Stanton 681EEE and the plump-toned Ortofon M15e were preferred to the V15 mkIII when I joined KJ back in 1974 and the current 681 version sells on ebay for £85 approx whereas the top Ortofon mm sells for £400 or so! The V15 XMR (with warmer balance in unloaded form) finished off at £300+ IIRC. The Denon 110 is around a hundred quid, whereas the once identically priced Dynavector 10 variant is now over £300. I don't understand it really, although not changing the spec of a model can keep prices low and each change means a re-negotiation with the manufacturers of the actual cartridge..

Today, I think the V15's should be regarded with respect, if not favour. The JICO stylus replacements may continue the general upgrading the earlier styli improvements made by Shure twenty five years or so before.. I think KK had it about right and this objective vs subjective thing still rattles on as I found a day or two ago on here. I think a V15 III onwards with decent stylus and properly loaded will be the cartridge version of a good monitor speaker - giving what's there in a straight-laced manner. Other modern cartridges will keep the objective bits under control but maybe sound a bit more entertaining with it...:)

[Marco]

Curious as to what you think might be the best of the older V15's and why?

Thanks in advance for the insight!

Hi Jeff,

Out of curiosity, why a V15? If you want a top-notch vintage Shure then it has to be the M3D. It is quite superb and knocks any V15 into a cocked hat! :)

Marco.

[Barry]

My experience of the V15 was limited to the II (improved) and then the III. The II (improved) replaced my M55E, so it could be said that I had had experienced the Mk I version. Shortly after I bought the II (imp), I bought an Ortofon mc and realised that the Shure was not the only path to follow. Later, I discovered the ADC 10E IV and later still the 25 and 26. I found these along with the Ortofon to be more to my taste and abandoned Shure after the III.

Dave (DSJR) has provided an excellent reply and I would concur; based on experience of a friend's Shure V15 V, that probably was the best version of the V15.

Regards

PS Next time I'm up you way Marco, you really must let me hear the M3D. That was my first cartridge, so I would be most interested to hear what the fuss is about.

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

It'll be getting demonstrated at Scalford Hall, if you're coming? :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

The M3D/N21 sadly doesn't track like many of the later models do, but it certainly has something about it that draws you in and holds your imagination. I wish Shure had done a semi-elliptical tip for it which may have slightly improved HF tracking ability..

The ADC's were fragile but lovely in their day and the 26 really was a reference grade pickup at the time. It sounds a bit sloppy today (I don't have an arm with negative mass, which apparently it needs ;)) and I much prefer the XLM/ZLM series, which should have been developed further. The VLM series was passed over as the XLM models were more "desirable" yet they have extra "verve" and "rawness" which I think works very well with a sympathetic system.


I think it fair to suggest that Shure sort of lost it later on and especially when CD all but took their market away. There were some excellent MM's about at the end, such as some of the JVC's, Ortofons (M20 FL Super, OM30, 540 etc) and the Technics 305 III, which Martin Colloms rated so very highly (yet kept a Koetsu for its cachet). All these had a wider dynamic range and good tracking, although at the time the Ultra 500 was regarded as one of the very best MM's ever - until AT got the 150 sorted at half the price...

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


The M3D/N21 sadly doesn't track like many of the later models do, but it certainly has something about it that draws you in and holds your imagination. I wish Shure had done a semi-elliptical tip for it which may have slightly improved HF tracking ability..


I've saw you mention this before, but I can't say that I've noticed any tracking problems with mine. I guess it depends on what type of music you play and how it's recorded.

I tend to use mine these days exclusively for replaying all my 1950s recordings, where the M3Ds beguilingly beautiful 'vintage valve-like tone' accurately reproduces the same in the recordings of its era :)

The 103SA (and others) are used for everything else. That's the beauty of having cartridges all mounted in various headshells, ready for use in a high-quality detachable headshell arm ;)

Marco.

[Rare Bird]

I prefered the 'M97XE' out of all the Shure cartridges or maybe i'm talking out of my arse..

[DSJR]

The 97 EJ and HE when newly introduced came out very well indeed, as they were far cheaper than the V15 series and didn't suffer very much for it. The 97XE is the latest version of these as I see it, but apparently they do vary somewhat, as many lower Shures could, with internal alignment and stylus fine-tuning not always carried out correctly. My first V15MR had terrible channel balance, but still within spec. The second stylus was rather better, but still worse than most modern cartridges, which appear to have more careful construction.

Maybe it's because of the extra profit available from most MC designs, but setup in manufacture does seem rather better on these and consistency doesn't appear to be an issue.

[Barry]

Hi Barry,

It'll be getting demonstrated at Scalford Hall, if you're coming? :)

Marco.

Hi Marco,

Can't say at the moment. Bad timing basically: I shall be up in North Wales at the beginning of March for a friend's birthday but I'm not sure if I can make the Saturday. (I assume that Saturday is when most AoS members will be going).

If I do go, I will have to book a room, as I intend to consume a few beers with whoever is around.

Can we start a list of those members who will be going?

Regards

[Barry]

I prefered the 'M97XE' out of all the Shure cartridges or maybe i'm talking out of my arse..

The M95 and M97s passed me by. I went from M55E to V15, although I had heard the M75ED in a friend's system.

I still have my ADC 25 (with three stylii) and 26 (with two stylii) for the days when I will no longer be able to afford mc retips. I never had any problem with tracking or LF resonance using the fixed headshell SME 3009 Improved, though I know what Dave means: the compliance of the 25/26 was quoted as 50-60 cu. However, the 1973 edition of the American 'High Fidelity's Test Reports' quotes CBS Labs as measuring a compliance of 120cu laterally and 56cu vertically! They claimed that a playing weight of 0.5g was ample (!)

Regards

[DSJR]

I have two 26 styli, one is almost collapsed and I tried modding the mounting holder the way I saw a Phase 4 done - ruined it....

The other is a NOS I've had for decades and it's fairly stable. I think you track these and the first XLM at around 0.7g IIRC. Again, they don't care for toppy recordings, although the Dual arm is medium to high mass I believe - the Ortofon M20E Super is about as far as it will take - and that one tracks superbly.....

A good arm for these old ADC's and Empires was the Transcriptors (Michel) Fluid Arm, a strange device but perfect for these old featherweight trackers. I suspect the surprisingly popular Formula 4 (because of it's very low mass) would be ideal as well.

I also have a Sonus Blue, which I hope is an early good one. It's lively, but not so that the Croft overloads. Tracking is excellent and surface noise low.

To come back to the OP though, all of these cartridges measure pretty well with lowish distortion (the ADC and Sonus aren't hot though) and reasonably flat response. there's a sense of space, reverb and, well *charm* to the sound which the Shures just don't have. To be honest, a great MC design (or a Decca) would eat them alive, but even so, they're a very comfortable listen IMO.

[Barry]

The Decca is a cartridge that I want to revisit sometime. I have three, fairly old models. Two Blues, one of which had a Weinz parabolic stylus fitted to it by the late Garrot brothers, and a Gold.

Nothing seems to have the attack and sheer presence of a Decca. And whilst none of them 'fell over', the edge of your seat anticipation that they might do so at any time, did not lead to a comfortable listening experience. For that reason I abandoned them.

I have said that I ought to give them another go; it's just getting round to it. I still have to optimise conditions for my Denon 103 and EMT. I really need to pull my finger out!

Apologies for the thread drift.

Regards

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

The show is on the Sunday (7th) only. The only people going on the Saturday are those (like us) setting up their systems for the following day.

If you want to do that you will need to book a room as an exhibitor for the Sunday, and also one to stay on the Saturday night before.

There are a list of people attending the show on the sticky thread in Blank Canvas :)

Marco.

[TONEPUB]

Thanks for all the info...

We'll see what happens. Just bought a brand new, in box Garrard Zero 100. I know it's a crazy purchase, but I always wanted one when I was a kid and they used to always sell em with a Shure V15. So instead of buying a vintage car from my youth, I'm getting a Zero 100.

Strictly a "fun" purchase. Not expecting a ton out of it.

[DSJR]

In the UK, the Zero 100 came with an M92E or somesuch..

The idler version still looks cool with its white top plate and brass fittings, but the tolerances could be awry on the headshell linkages. great looking deck though :)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Zero100.jpg

By the time of the belt driven SB version, the PL12D ruled supreme and any auto decks sold were the better Techie ones and the Duals.

[darkstar078]

:goodthread:

Big thanks for your insight on the Shure V15s.
This is an appetizer for more on other carts ofcourse ;)
Cheers Dave!

[DSJR]

I sit at the laptop and all this stuff comes flooding out - stuff I thought I'd forgotten.

[TONEPUB]

Again, thanks for the help. I've got an M97 to compare, but the Zero 100 is strictly a "for fun" purchase... I've got a fully restored Dual 1229 on the way as well. Just like vintage cars to me, I can't afford a garage full of my favorite vintage Porsche, Triumph and Healey's but I can have a few cool vintage tables.....

[YNWaN]

I've got a V15 mkIV in my cartridge collection - haven't listened to it in many, many years though.

[DSJR]

I don't think it would set your world alight to be honest Mark. But it may come in handy as a sort of reference as long as it's given 300pF at least and possibly 60+K Ohms loading.....

1229? I love that old deck and lent mine out on permanent loan, now lost forever. Make sure the motor wires allow TOTAL free movement in the suspension and personally, I'd trim the rubber inserts that protrude into the springs too. I'd better shut it on vintage Duals or they'll be the next price hikers like Crofts and Lenco's now are...

[YNWaN]

I've also got a Decca Gold Dave - so more likely to use that to be honest.