To sub or not to sub...

[djEmpire]

My Bryston Model T mains provide a dynamic range that can be defined as "wide, forward and a little bright". I positioned them where they are no longer fatiguing. The mids are really sonic nirvana! Buttery smooth and warm depending on the source. The triple eight woofers hit a sweet low spot on certain sources, never overpower and stay true to its sound character. It moves enough air that would please 95% of people.
I like to listen to my music at above average levels. Could be my failing ears after years of professionally djing, but not enough to make them bleed either. I want to feel the music! The room is ~20x30'.

The area to address: the highs need to be complimented with a tight, snappy punch that can be had with a designated sub.
I've looked at the following choices but open to any suggestions.

Model T Subwoofer (http://bryston.com/products/speakers/Model_T_Subwoofer.html)
Paradigm Reference Sub 12 (https://www.paradigm.com/products-archived/type=subwoofer/model=sub-12/page=overview)

My system:

Bryston 4B3
Bryston Model T signature speakers
Simaudio MOON NEO Preamp
OPPO UDP-205 for DAC
Rotel RQ-970BX Phono Preamp
AT-AL150 Cartridge

[Firebottle]

The Model T appears to have fixed discrete crossover frequencies so I'd avoid that one.

Have a look at the REL range as well.

[Macca]

'The bass is said to be flat to 25Hz, and, based on what I heard, I don't doubt it.'
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/brystons-model-t-speakers#kzIIOYWe3rFLWW0S.99

Very serious speakers. Not sure a sub is the solution, what is it going to do that the speakers cannot already?. I'd look at the pre-amp or interconnects as the culprits for the brightness - unless you already tried that. Or could be the room is a bit too reflective?

[djEmpire]

They are indeed balanced and dynamic. The question isn't what is missing from the speaker itself, the aim is to compliment the tonality in the high-hat region. Treble can be tricky to control if the system doesn't have a silk or ribbon tweeter, so the focus is to accentuate the bass slightly to a more 'velvety' top end.
OTOH, the room can use some dressing up....need wall coverings and a decent rug!
Interconnects are XLR, Pre to Amp & Oppo. Blue Jeans Speaker cable.

[Boyse6748]

A word of advice before you go down this path.

I have recently added a Bowers & Wilkins PV1D sub to my stereo speakers (Kef 105/3's) and it's not quite as straightforward as you may think.

The hardest part is getting the sub to correctly integrate with the main speakers, so it doesn't sound overpowering or takes over the bass end.

Success has taken some time and an array of adjustments to get it just right. Luckily, the PV1D has the ability to fine tune the setting and has the ability to connect with Line level or speaker level connections.

For me, the hardest part was getting the crossover point and the phase right.

I'm not suggesting you get a PV1D but do make sure you get something with the ability to adjust Low Pass Phase / Low Pass Slope and of course Low Pass Frequency adjustments.

Also the ability to to store EQ settings is a bonus.

Room placement is also an issue, it's not just the case of placing the sub where you think it looks good or you will get a detached bass anomaly.

Anyway, good luck. For me, the end result was worth it.

Don't forget, it's integration..... not an addition of a sub bass unit.


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[Firebottle]

Very well put, you don't want the sub to draw attention to itself.

[Macca]

, the aim is to compliment the tonality in the high-hat region. Treble can be tricky to control if the system doesn't have a silk or ribbon tweeter, so the focus is to accentuate the bass slightly to a more 'velvety' top end.
.

I'm not saying this won't work but.... it is interesting that people make assumptions about tweeters that are not really valid.

First of all they assume that the tweeter contributes far more to the sound than it actually does. This can be demonstrated by disconnecting the tweeters on a friend's system and seeing how long it takes for him to a)notice something is wrong b)pin it down to the tweeters not working. The likelihood is he will blame the recording to begin with.

Second, that different types of tweeter are responsible for certain traits in the sound. So silk domes are smooth because silk is smooth, but metal domes are hard and clangy because metal is hard and clangy. In reality any type of tweeter, provided the implementation has not been botched, will sound absolutely fine.

95% of the hi-hat sound will be coming from the mid range driver, not the tweeter, and if the speaker sounds too bright/toppy this is likely to be the fault of the partnering equipment, not the speaker (unless it is badly flawed or some weird design).

Speakers tend to measure pretty much flat when they leave the factory. No-one designs a speaker, listens to it, decides it is too toppy, hard, harsh, bright etc then sticks it out in the market place anyway. Speakers get blamed for all sorts of ills. Fact is, the better the speaker the more it will show up how rubbish the amplifier is. But people don't want to believe this for some reason.

[struth]

a supertweeter may do the same

[djEmpire]

Martin, I totally agree. My focus is to introduce a little more movement of air in an effort to compliment the tweeters. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my description, I am very happy with my amp and speaker. The dynamic duo's are flawless in faithfully producing what's asked of them. As a dj and avid EDM, prog house and classic rock listener, I play music loud. The sub will augment the notes that much more.

[Stratmangler]

Martin, I totally agree. My focus is to introduce a little more movement of air in an effort to compliment the tweeters. Perhaps I wasn't clear in my description, I am very happy with my amp and speaker. The dynamic duo's are flawless in faithfully producing what's asked of them. As a dj and avid EDM, prog house and classic rock listener, I play music loud. The sub will augment the notes that much more.

Why don't you just assemble a club PA system?
It sounds like you need bass bins, not a subwoofer.

[djEmpire]

Why don't you just assemble a club PA system?
It sounds like you need bass bins, not a subwoofer.

Not sure how to take that. Why would you assume I want it to sound like a club?
Nothing constructive?.....keep it.

[Stratmangler]

The slam you're lacking is in the low midband - your speakers go down to 20Hz, and your room is big enough to permit the generation of long wavelengths.
Lack of low bass is not your problem.

[djEmpire]

The slam you're lacking is in the low midband - your speakers go down to 20Hz, and your room is big enough to permit the generation of long wavelengths.
Lack of low bass is not your problem.

I believe it goes down to 25Hz

[Macca]

True that 'club bass' and deep bass are not the same thing. My speakers will do club bass even though they roll off steeply below 40Hz

I think you will not find it easy integrating subs with those speakers you have. I mean it isn't easy with any speakers, but given they already go so low you might find cancelation effects cause issues. Not saying it cannot be done, though.

[Stratmangler]

I believe it goes down to 25Hz

You're right - I misread what it says on the Bryston website.
The other point I made still stands.
There's also this to consider https://www.acousticfields.com/wavelengths-in-our-rooms/

[Macca]

Other options rather than a sub might be digital eq, do it before the DAC, obviously. For vinyl change the cart for something a bit more 'bouncy' in the bass. Or run the vinyl through the digital eq. A perfectly flat in room response will sound bass light due to Fletcher Munson curve. Beefing up the really low bass won't do it because the bass you want to emphasise is in the 70-200 hz range. Trying to augment that with a sub is a bit of a crude solution and you will need a sub where you can adjust both high and low pass to even attempt it.

One other issue I have encountered before is that in improving the bass you can lose something in the mid-range, with a passive system anyway.

If it were me I'd still start by trying a different speaker cable since that is cheap and easy. Simple guide is the thicker the cable, the more bass emphasis you get. But as above, beefing up the bass can spoil the mids.