Linear vs Switched mode PSU [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Edward

19-07-2017, 20:18

So I was chatting with Jez (Arkless) today about him possibly finishing of a part built linear PSU I have (using Paul Hynes regulators etc).

Jez is happy to look at the PSU but did mention that I would not notice any difference. I have not tried to use a linear PSU on any audio product after using a switched mode PSU so I don't have a firm view on this. However I imagine some AoS members have so would appreciate hearing what differences (if any) were obvious.

Of course I have looked at the interweb thingy and see opinions all over the place but with a slight tendency towards an improvement for well built linear PSUs. I certainly don't understand the electrical theory behind all this - but I do have well tuned ears. :)

My particular application is for my HTPC and a Paul Pang USB card. Currently I'm using a Leicke switched PSU for the HTPC which, to me, sounds just fine. The Paul Pang card needs a separate 5v supply and I was hoping that the linear PSU I have would power that. My power amps, preamp and dac I have all have linear PSUs already.

So grateful to hear of anyone's experience when switching from a switched PSU to a linear PSU (or the other way round) on an audio item?

cheers

bumpy

20-07-2017, 10:56

I think you will find that Jez also thinks there are no sonic differences between interconnects or mains cables.

Stratmangler

20-07-2017, 11:44

Jez is happy to look at the PSU but did mention that I would not notice any difference.

Sounds like he's snowed under with work ....

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 12:17

I think you will find that Jez also thinks there are no sonic differences between interconnects or mains cables.

No I don't believe it I know it to be fact. Certainly in the case of mains cables. Small differences will sometimes (rarely) be heard with interconnects which have nothing to do with the interconnect itself, ie what make it is etc, but only to do with the capacitance and the way in which a particular source copes with this.

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 12:49

Sounds like he's snowed under with work ....

At the moment pretty much yes... but I often "put my money where my mouth is" and advise customers that, whilst yes I can carry our a specific job they are enquiring about, it is unlikely to give any improvement.

Haselsh1

20-07-2017, 13:16

No I don't believe it I know it to be fact. Certainly in the case of mains cables. Small differences will sometimes (rarely) be heard with interconnects which have nothing to do with the interconnect itself, ie what make it is etc, but only to do with the capacitance and the way in which a particular source copes with this.

LOL... so I guess just because you 'think' there is no difference between interconnects, there cannot possibly be a difference...? It cannot possibly be because your ears cannot hear a difference...??

Spectral Morn

20-07-2017, 13:23

In theory a well executed switch mode should sound the same as a Linear, but the reality for many is that Linear PSUs seem to sound better.

If I was having a PSU built for any application I would go Linear rather than Switch, but that's just me. As they say, others mileage may vary.

Simon_LDT

20-07-2017, 13:41

LOL... so I guess just because you 'think' there is no difference between interconnects, there cannot possibly be a difference...? It cannot possibly be because your ears cannot hear a difference...??

Sure we've been over this before in various other threads. It's just an opinion (just like most posts are on a forum).

I struggle to hear a difference if I'm honest, but then I could just not have good enough gear or my ears are shot :eek: I've only tried ''lower'' tier stuff, like Mark Grant, the Klotz/MS Audio cable, Van Damme with Rean plugs, around the £25-60 mark, nothing like hundreds of pounds stuff.

Not sure I believe it myself either, and if there is a difference it is extremely slight but if others do then fair enough and if it works out then that is the main thing here for me. If a person is happy with something they've purchased and happy with the price/performance ratio, etc then fair play.

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 13:45

LOL... so I guess just because you 'think' there is no difference between interconnects, there cannot possibly be a difference...? It cannot possibly be because your ears cannot hear a difference...??

I wish I had a tenner for every time I've visited a foo believing hi fi enthusiast and within seconds of the first track starting I've been able to say that the speakers are out of phase.... or a tweeter has blown altogether on one channel and there's nothing above 3KHz on that channel....

RothwellAudio

20-07-2017, 13:54

I wish I had a tenner for every time I've visited a foo believing hi fi enthusiast and within seconds of the first track starting I've been able to say that the speakers are out of phase.... or a tweeter has blown altogether on one channel and there's nothing above 3KHz on that channel....

I remember visiting one chap who demonstrated the difference in sound when he placed something underneath his CD player. Somehow he seemed oblivious to the fact that the system sounded absolutely horrible either with or without the thing under his CD player.

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 14:31

I was asked the other day to outline what was put by the poster as "The world of hi fi according to Jez"..... a rather pejorative description I think as I would personally put it more as "the true world of hi fi". Much to my surprise Marco encouraged it!

So, on the understanding that I will put things in my own phraseology, which apparently some find "abrasive", others refreshingly honest, I will start such a thread and make switch mode V linear supplies the first topic.

Marco, I hope you are reading this! If I am "not allowed" to, for example, INSIST that something which is impossible, and would break the laws of physics, remains impossible even if several "golden eared" types claim to hear it, and that therefore the only viable explanation is a lively imagination, then I will not start the thread. I would see it as a "lecture", "teach in" or "master class" rather than a debate and, to use a medical analogy, if I were a doctor giving a lecture on health and the environment, I would not be willing to begin it on the understanding that "Oh, Dr Arkless, a quick word, some of our audience believe that people get sick due to evil leprechauns cursing the grass the cows eat and may not take kindly to being told that is impossible...could you skirt around that bit, maybe say it's open to various interpretations?"

Edward

20-07-2017, 15:35

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 15:50

Simon_LDT

20-07-2017, 15:52

"The world of hi fi according to Jez"

That would make a great series. :D

Edward, I went from a 5v switched supply for my RPi 2 (stock one it comes with) to a HDPlex Linear PS and if there was a difference it was subtle. I mainly got it for the multiple outputs so I can connect all my stuff to 1 supply that needs DC power input.

Edward

20-07-2017, 16:02

That would make a great series. :D

Edward, I went from a 5v switched supply for my RPi 2 (stock one it comes with) to a HDPlex Linear PS and if there was a difference it was subtle. I mainly got it for the multiple outputs so I can connect all my stuff to 1 supply that needs DC power input.

Thanks Simon - interesting you only noticed a subtle difference if that. Yes I did consider the HDPlex PSU but I already have all the bits for a linear PS so was interested in going for that. But perhaps the improvement in audio will not be there (according to "The true world of HiFi".) :)

By the way I see most PSUs for the Raspberry are 5.1v - however I see that this one (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/plug-in-power-supply/8226373/) is 5v (2A) so maybe I can get that one and cross my fingers?

Arkless Electronics

20-07-2017, 16:34

Thanks Simon - interesting you only noticed a subtle difference if that. Yes I did consider the HDPlex PSU but I already have all the bits for a linear PS so was interested in going for that. But perhaps the improvement in audio will not be there (according to "The true world of HiFi".) :)

By the way I see most PSUs for the Raspberry are 5.1v - however I see that this one (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/plug-in-power-supply/8226373/) is 5v (2A) so maybe I can get that one and cross my fingers?

I nearly suggested a raspberry pi PSU earlier....

Edward

20-07-2017, 17:38

I placed an order for the Raspberry PSU. Let's see how that will work. I will need to snip the USB connector and connect wires. Hopefully I will get the polarity correct. Lol.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

Stratmangler

20-07-2017, 19:32

Haselsh1

20-07-2017, 20:33

I wish I had a tenner for every time I've visited a foo believing hi fi enthusiast and within seconds of the first track starting I've been able to say that the speakers are out of phase.... or a tweeter has blown altogether on one channel and there's nothing above 3KHz on that channel....

And what about the other times that the person you are with is not a fucking idiot and none of your suggestions apply...?

fatmarley

21-07-2017, 06:05

Ok, not a switched mode vs linear PSU rant but the regulation used Is the most Important aspect of a linear supply.

If I hadn't of tried Teddyregs (https://www.teddypardo.com/diy/teddyreg.html) I would have said differences In power supplies are subtle at best. Previous to those I'd tried Tentlabs shunt regs and ALW Super regs.
Teddyregs were started by Teddy Pardo over at Pinkfishmedia and the regulator developed and Improved with suggestions from some of the more clever electronic gurus. Once It was realised that they were very good, a group buy was started for pcbs.
I used them In my old Naim style preamp (Starfish) but the girlfriend kept nagging me about all the ugly black boxes, so I sold all my modded Naim gear and just kept the Onix OA21 Integrated amp (Unfortunately Onix has knowhere near the dynamics).

For anyone who's thinking "Yea but I don't care much for Naim", The 2d, harsh but somehow dull at the same time Naim sound was completely gone with my old system. Wish I could get my old preamp back. Some lucky bugger over at Zerogain bought It :(

I still use Teddyregs In my Dacmagic (along with a PFM flea (http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/naim/35clockreg.html)) and I'm very very happy with the results.

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 12:18

And what about the other times that the person you are with is not a fucking idiot and none of your suggestions apply...?

I'll tell you if it ever happens.

Macca

21-07-2017, 12:26

I remember visiting one chap who demonstrated the difference in sound when he placed something underneath his CD player. Somehow he seemed oblivious to the fact that the system sounded absolutely horrible either with or without the thing under his CD player.

My favourite was a shockingly expensive system using, amongst other very pricey trinkets, cable lifters that cost over £100 each. It sounded, by anyone's standard, absolutely piss-poor. You can't beat a hi-fi show if you want a good laugh.

struth

21-07-2017, 12:39

if a system sounds good to the person that owns it then its job done. Everyone is different and they may think yours sounds horrible:)

RothwellAudio

21-07-2017, 12:47

if a system sounds good to the person that owns it then its job done. Everyone is different and they may think yours sounds horrible:)

Err.....well, that's a very accommodating attitude and I'm not quite sure how to respond other than to say he played everything so loud - way beyond its capabilities - that the system was well into severe distortion. Yes, if that's what he likes I suppose he is free to enjoy it. Hardly "high fidelity" though.

Macca

21-07-2017, 13:04

I agree, I think we all hear objectionable distortion the same way. Either the owner of such a system has never heard anything better, which is hard to believe, or they are in denial. I mean if you've spent the thick end of 20 grand and have all the fancy mains leads, the cable lifters, the stainless-steel anti-vibration feet to sit the lap top on, the diffusers made from three types of exotic hardwood and so forth then it has to sound good, doesn't it?

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 14:28

if a system sounds good to the person that owns it then its job done. Everyone is different and they may think yours sounds horrible:)

I strongly disagree. Either it's accurate and therefore high fidelity or it isn't.

I've told this one before but I once had a customer with an Audionote SET amp for repair. I tried it briefly in my system and it was as awful as I expected and I reconnected my own power amps (MF A370 innards made into monoblocks at the time). The customer asked to hear my system when he came to collect his amp and I obliged. After listening for a couple of tracks he said "That sounds dynamic, transparent, excellent slam (blah blah)... I used to work in a recording studio for a while and it reminds both of live music and of the sound I used to hear in the studio control room through the studio monitors... no no I don't like that at all!!"

You couldn't make it up....

Firebottle

21-07-2017, 15:01

:lol: It takes all sorts ........

struth

21-07-2017, 15:14

Dont think it matters if its hifi or not as long as the person gets enjoyment from his/her music. That is really all that matters imv. But obviously im in a minority of 1. .... but proud of it

anthonyTD

21-07-2017, 15:18

Come on Jez, get this thread started, I need cheering up!:eek:;)
Seriously,I am sure It will be entertaining, as well as [posibly] enlightning to some!:)
I strongly disagree. Either it's accurate and therefore high fidelity or it isn't.

I've told this one before but I once had a customer with an Audionote SET amp for repair. I tried it briefly in my system and it was as awful as I expected and I reconnected my own power amps (MF A370 innards made into monoblocks at the time). The customer asked to hear my system when he came to collect his amp and I obliged. After listening for a couple of tracks he said "That sounds dynamic, transparent, excellent slam (blah blah)... I used to work in a recording studio for a while and it reminds both of live music and of the sound I used to hear in the studio control room through the studio monitors... no no I don't like that at all!!"

You couldn't make it up....

Macca

21-07-2017, 15:35

Dont think it matters if its hifi or not as long as the person gets enjoyment from his/her music. That is really all that matters imv. But obviously im in a minority of 1. .... but proud of it

No you're not. I agree that if someone enjoys their system that is all that matters. But you can have a very coloured system that is not 'high fidelity' in the strict sense of the term but is still pleasing to listen to and you can have a nasty hard, harsh, distorted mess that clearly isn't.

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 16:57

Come on Jez, get this thread started, I need cheering up!:eek:;)
Seriously,I am sure It will be entertaining, as well as [posibly] enlightning to some!:)

I'm afraid that if there is any link between my post which you quoted and your reply then it's lost on me..... I can only assume you mean the hi fi mythbusting thread? I do have actual work to do don't yer know:D It will happen don't ye worry:)

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 17:01

No you're not. I agree that if someone enjoys their system that is all that matters. But you can have a very coloured system that is not 'high fidelity' in the strict sense of the term but is still pleasing to listen to and you can have a nasty hard, harsh, distorted mess that clearly isn't.

To me hi-fi is about, to quote Quad "the closest approach to the original sound". Anything else is not hi-fi. An individual with strange tastes in sound may get enjoyment out of a bizarre sounding system but it's still a crap system and very definitely not hi-fi.

Macca

21-07-2017, 17:04

To me hi-fi is about, to quote Quad "the closest approach to the original sound". Anything else is not hi-fi. An individual with strange tastes in sound may get enjoyment out of a bizarre sounding system but it's still a crap system and very definitely not hi-fi.

And strictly speaking you are right. but people using SETs and horns don't like to be told it isn't 'proper hi-fi', and understandably so, so best not to go there.

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 17:15

And strictly speaking you are right. but people using SETs and horns don't like to be told it isn't 'proper hi-fi', and understandably so, so best not to go there.

Whilst I wasn't referring to any specific type of system, the truth should not be held back on just to save someone's feelings is my view, not in this context anyway.
A hi fi should not IMHO be tailored to sound "enjoyable" but should aim to recreate the sound of real music. If one cannot enjoy the sound of a live unamplified string quartet without thinking "yuk... that sounds far too toppy... I'd prefer this on my hi fi with the treble turned right down and the loudness button in" then I feel sorry for them... but would not condone pandering to such a person!

Macca

21-07-2017, 17:33

Whilst I wasn't referring to any specific type of system, the truth should not be held back on just to save someone's feelings is my view, not in this context anyway.
A hi fi should not IMHO be tailored to sound "enjoyable" but should aim to recreate the sound of real music. If one cannot enjoy the sound of a live unamplified string quartet without thinking "yuk... that sounds far too toppy... I'd prefer this on my hi fi with the treble turned right down and the loudness button in" then I feel sorry for them... but would not condone pandering to such a person!

I'm all in favour of concentrating on getting noise and distortion as low as possible and letting the recording speak for itself. But people don't trust recordings because they have heard too many coloured systems that did amazing things with some recordings and made others unlistenable At least that was where I was at before adopting a more 'objective' approach.

But I think that we should accept that in general the meaning of the phrase 'hi-fi system' has evolved over the years, as language quite legitimately does.

Edward

21-07-2017, 17:35

Macca

21-07-2017, 17:48

I think a lot of people have suffered from the 'loudness wars' where there has been massive compression in music and even worse deliberate clipping has been added. So in turn many people have become 'tuned' to the idea that 'great' music is compressed/clipped so I'm not surprised when they spend big bucks and chase after such sound.

I've lost count of the times I walked into a room at a hifi show and walked straight out. Lovely expensive noise. How some folks can mangle a perfectly good track is astonishing. :scratch: :)

I know. The pursuit of detail at the expense of a pleasurable sound is partly to blame. Also I think some people who have worked full time in the industry for many years get to a point where they can't see the wood for the trees.

struth

21-07-2017, 19:43

Well I think hifi should be enjoyable. Period And if it's not why do it

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 20:11

Well I think hifi should be enjoyable. Period And if it's not why do it

The music itself should be enjoyable rather than the sound of a given hi-fi IMHO. To that end, the hi-fi should be, as far as possible, an open window into the music itself... not a stained glass window adding extra colours etc....

struth

21-07-2017, 20:18

well as I say, not everyone hears things the same way. what you think is enjoyable another ray think flat and lifeless etc. My whole point is that if someone prefers his system, even if it gives others less than pleasure, then that should be fine by everyone else and shouldnt be slammed for it. Obviously thats not going to happen here so its getting circular.

Barry

21-07-2017, 20:18

I think a lot of people have suffered from the 'loudness wars' where there has been massive compression in music and even worse deliberate clipping has been added. So in turn many people have become 'tuned' to the idea that 'great' music is compressed/clipped so I'm not surprised when they spend big bucks and chase after such sound.

I've lost count of the times I walked into a room at a hifi show and walked straight out. Lovely expensive noise. How some folks can mangle a perfectly good track is astonishing. :scratch: :)

And usually it's those demonstrating the most expensive equipment that sound the worse! One wonders if they have ever attended a live concert.

There are exceptions of course, but they are rare.

Edward

21-07-2017, 20:31

I imagine it must take some care, attention and dedication to make good kit sound awful. I don't have the patience, I just pick up what hopefully are bargains and cross my fingers.

Mind you I would love to have some MBL or TAD speakers. :cool:

Arkless Electronics

21-07-2017, 21:16

I'm not so sure about the relevance of everyone hearing things differently myself... We all have continuous reference to real life sound with which to compare recorded sound and decide if it seems the same or not, the human voice being the most easy to compare I guess as we hear real people speak and sometimes singing on a daily basis.

Lets say I hear sounds around 3KHz louder than you do. That's going to happen whether live or recorded so I'd still be equally able to compare the two.

walpurgis

21-07-2017, 21:53

Nice argument Jez. I like that and agree.

Firebottle

22-07-2017, 07:22

^ me too, good one Jez.

Haselsh1

22-07-2017, 08:32

Marco

22-07-2017, 09:04

A person's Hi-Fi should reproduce music in a way that gives pleasure to the owner/listener otherwise as already said, why bother...? If this were the case there would simply be no point. If the closest approach to the original sound is what it is all about for you then so be it, for me it is only about hearing the music in a way that gives me satisfaction and therefore pleasure. Technically my sound system is classed as Hi-Fi but I very much doubt it is truly accurate in the way a live acoustic set would be, I do not though listen to acoustic music so where then does the term accurate come in...?

Good point. If you listen mostly to artificially created (electronic) music, for instance, then the traditional notion of 'accurate' goes out of the window, so how can one then use it as an arbiter for such? ;)

For me, it's dead simple: the better my hi-fi system reproduces the real sound of instruments and voices (as perceived by my ears), the more I enjoy listening to recorded music featuring such. Ultimately, it's all about experiencing my notion of musical realism, and therefore what's heard in that respect, can only ever be judged subjectively by me, or perhaps also by others whose notion of such is similar.

Therefore, the enjoyment I derive from my hi-fi system is directly proportional to how well it achieves the above. I'd imagine that it's the same for most people :)

Marco.

fatmarley

22-07-2017, 09:07

I've heard loads of accurate systems - They all sounded different to each other though...

Marco

22-07-2017, 09:11

'Accuracy' is an enviable goal, but realistically one that is never truly achieved by any hi-fi system, so the best one can hope for, when reproducing recorded music on our systems, is a convincing facsimile of such, based on our notion of what we consider as 'real'.

Marco.

fatmarley

22-07-2017, 09:45

walpurgis

22-07-2017, 09:52

Not heard any for ages, but I recall thinking similar about the mid from Impulse H2 speakers. There was a lucidity that was very appealing.

struth

22-07-2017, 10:02

For me and I'd imagine most people, the midrange Is the most Important part of the frequency range. I can enjoy listening to a portable radio If I like the music that's playing. The best mids I've heard were from Jerrys MBLs and some mega expensive horn speakers I heard at Scalford. It's the kind of thing you wouldn't understand unless you heard It for yourself. Vocals were eerily 3d like and hung In mid air between the speakers. Was It accurate? I don't know but It sounded good. And as a wise man once said "If It sounds good, It Is good".

sure, i agree. mid range is most important although just by self it isnt perfect. one of the reasons i use the fullrange drivers is for their mid range magic.
i would also add folk are creatures of habit and like what they know as their ears are attuned to it

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 10:40

Jez,
Your quote below explains the reason quite clearly why people perceive different systems to sound more right to them, than others, I will take your quote further by saying this; if you were the sound engineer, responsible for recording a particular album, with as you say' a more sensitive perception of one particular frequency range for eg, Then surely you can understand that you would then record that album to sound right to you, but anyone else listening to that album may not have your hearing perception difference, and in fact, may have the opposite, which to them that recording would sound quite different to you, therefore HI FI in its simplest term can only relate to accurately reproducing what the sound engineer perceived as accurate to him on the day, and thats fine if everyone hears things the way he does, but you know as well as I that we dont all hear sound the same, there are too many variants that make it impossibly so, hence the reason we all strive to create a system that plays music that sounds right, or should I say enjoyable to us, sometimes that system may also sound right or enjoyable in the same way to many others too, but also' it may not, for the same reasons I have outlined above.
We dont live in a perfect world Jez, and therefore we do not hear or perceive things in the same way as each other, and that is why people will continue to put together systems that may sound right to that person, but very different to someone else..

Lets say I hear sounds around 3KHz louder than you do. That's going to happen whether live or recorded so I'd still be equally able to compare the two..

PalsHuffMor

22-07-2017, 10:52

I don't listen to my music in an anechoic chamber, or through an oscilloscope, so I don't care so much how my hifi 'performs' against those criteria. A well designed component will sound musical without any unnatural emphasis or distortion.

I'm most concerned about losing as little musical information as possible along the journey from source to speaker. I trust my ears.

Components that have been over engineered in the pursuit of 'perfect measurements' do not interest me. Components that have been deliberately 'flavoured' don't interest me either.

If HiFi is not all about enjoyment then you might as well never turn it on again!

Marco

22-07-2017, 11:10

Jez,
Your quote below explains the reason quite clearly why people perceive different systems to sound more right to them, than others, I will take your quote further by saying this; if you were the sound engineer, responsible for recording a particular album, with as you say' a more sensitive perception of one particular frequency range for eg, Then surely you can understand that you would then record that album to sound right to you, but anyone else listening to that album may not have your hearing perception difference, and in fact, may have the opposite, which to them that recording would sound quite different to you, therefore HI FI in its simplest term can only relate to accurately reproducing what the sound engineer perceived as accurate to him on the day, and thats fine if everyone hears things the way he does, but you know as well as I that we dont all hear sound the same, there are too many variants that make it impossibly so, hence the reason we all strive to create a system that plays music that sounds right, or should I say enjoyable to us, sometimes that system may also sound right or enjoyable in the same way to many others too, but also' it may not, for the same reasons I have outlined above.
We dont live in a perfect world Jez, and therefore we do not hear or perceive things in the same way as each other, and that is why people will continue to put together systems that may sound right to that person, but very different to someone else..

Spot on, or as I wrote earlier:

Ultimately, it's all about experiencing my notion of musical realism, and therefore what's heard, in that respect, can only ever be judged subjectively by me, or perhaps also by others whose notion of such is similar.

Therefore, the enjoyment I derive from my hi-fi system is directly proportional to how well it achieves the above.

:)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 12:06

Jez,
Your quote below explains the reason quite clearly why people perceive different systems to sound more right to them, than others, I will take your quote further by saying this; if you were the sound engineer, responsible for recording a particular album, with as you say' a more sensitive perception of one particular frequency range for eg, Then surely you can understand that you would then record that album to sound right to you, but anyone else listening to that album may not have your hearing perception difference, and in fact, may have the opposite, which to them that recording would sound quite different to you, therefore HI FI in its simplest term can only relate to accurately reproducing what the sound engineer perceived as accurate to him on the day, and thats fine if everyone hears things the way he does, but you know as well as I that we dont all hear sound the same, there are too many variants that make it impossibly so, hence the reason we all strive to create a system that plays music that sounds right, or should I say enjoyable to us, sometimes that system may also sound right or enjoyable in the same way to many others too, but also' it may not, for the same reasons I have outlined above.
We dont live in a perfect world Jez, and therefore we do not hear or perceive things in the same way as each other, and that is why people will continue to put together systems that may sound right to that person, but very different to someone else..

I utterly disagree and for exactly the reason in my earlier post which you quote. In that scenario too much around 3KHz would be normal to me as it's what I would always hear. Therefore I wouldn't be adjusting anything to compensate for it! That's the point!

JohnJo

22-07-2017, 12:36

It's completely obvious that we all appreciate systems with different attributes based on our senses, music taste and how components interact with each other. To argue that there's only one correct voicing for, say, an amplifier strikes me as bizarre.

If this was the case the Japs would have made it in the 70s, it would be the accepted reference and only amp in production and the hifi industry would be dead.

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 12:43

You might not compensate for it, but the sound engineer might, because he may not be aware of his own frequency deficiencies, which is my point!
Sometimes Jez I think you just want to argue for the sake of it, and you end up not seeing the wood for the trees.
I utterly disagree and for exactly the reason in my earlier post which you quote. In that scenario too much around 3KHz would be normal to me as it's what I would always hear. Therefore I wouldn't be adjusting anything to compensate for it! That's the point!

montesquieu

22-07-2017, 12:56

So, anyone with any experience between switched and linear PSUs? Before and after? Or even after and before? :scratch: :)

By the way whilst I mull over a linear PSU does anyone have a recommendation for a 5v (2a) switched PSU (wallmart type is fine) I can use for my USB card? Something that has voltage protection as I don't want to fry my Paul Pang USB card.

@Jez, looking forward to your new thread of "The true world of HiFi - by Jez".

I have quite a useful box - an Esoteric Re-Equalizer to give it its name - that takes the output from a phono stage (or passing through a tape loop which is how I prefer to use it, rather than having it permanently in the signal path) that 're-equalises' the signal to correct for the variety of equalisation curves before the RIAA standard became commonplace (introduced in 1956 but not universal till into the 60s). This enables older mono and 78s to sound far more modern and correct.

It's quite a cheap device from new and is powered by a wall wart. About 5-6 years ago Nick Gorham built me a linear PSU for it, and also upgraded all the opamps inside (replacing 5p ones with £2 ones). The difference was immense - though I suspect the main improvement (if not all) was from the opamps. Was it worth going for the linear PSU? For me, yes, I only intended to do this once and not having a wall wart attached to my power supply board brought (possibly irrational but nevertheless real) peace of mind. It's job done, forget about it. I'm not sure I would necessarily spend thousands on one though. Perhaps, Jez, you should take people's motivation into account before telling them they are wasting their money.

As for the musical position on the wider question as it has developed, I feel stuck in the middle of the debate here. I'm well past believing that 'detail' and 'clarity' are the infallible path to musical nirvana. I have a system in my study (Tannoy DC6's, Garrard 401 with a Shure SC35C, original Cyrus One - all high up sharing the one bookshelf!) that's fabulously enjoyable and singalong, that I know lacks many hifi attributes - though it reminds me of how enjoyable records used to sound when I was a penniless student listening only for the music and the words, and not how it reproduced the hall acoustic or the timbre of a viola da gamba vs a cello.

I have aimed to keep the main system musical and enjoyable too, rather than a slave to 'accuracy'. Yet my experience overwhelmingly (with amplification at least) is that what measures best sounds best. The main system does all that hifi stuff really well (if that's what you are looking for), but what I have aimed for is musical synergy, not accuracy. 'Accuracy' for me is a by-product, not the object.

RothwellAudio

22-07-2017, 12:59

To argue that there's only one correct voicing for, say, an amplifier strikes me as bizarre.
To argue that a hi-fi amp should even have a voice strikes me as bizarre. Sure, musical instruments are voiced to create a particular sound - and so are guitar amps (though they really belong in the musical instrument category) - but hi-fi amps should be devoid of their own "voice" and simply reproduce what's fed into them.
Shouldn't they? :scratch:

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 13:10

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 13:12

I have quite a useful box - an Esoteric Re-Equalizer to give it its name - that takes the output from a phono stage (or passing through a tape loop which is how I prefer to use it, rather than having it permanently in the signal path) that 're-equalises' the signal to correct for the variety of equalisation curves before the RIAA standard became commonplace (introduced in 1956 but not universal till into the 60s). This enables older mono and 78s to sound far more modern and correct.

It's quite a cheap device from new and is powered by a wall wart. About 5-6 years ago Nick Gorham built me a linear PSU for it, and also upgraded all the opamps inside (replacing 5p ones with £2 ones). The difference was immense - though I suspect the main improvement (if not all) was from the opamps. Was it worth going for the linear PSU? For me, yes, I only intended to do this once and not having a wall wart attached to my power supply board brought (possibly irrational but nevertheless real) peace of mind. It's job done, forget about it. I'm not sure I would necessarily spend thousands on one though. Perhaps, Jez, you should take people's motivation into account before telling them they are wasting their money.

As for the musical position on the wider question as it has developed, I feel stuck in the middle of the debate here. I'm well past believing that 'detail' and 'clarity' are the infallible path to musical nirvana. I have a system in my study (Tannoy DC6's, Garrard 401 with a Shure SC35C, original Cyrus One - all high up sharing the one bookshelf!) that's fabulously enjoyable and singalong, that I know lacks many hifi attributes - though it reminds me of how enjoyable records used to sound when I was a penniless student listening only for the music and the words, and not how it reproduced the hall acoustic or the timbre of a viola da gamba vs a cello.

I have aimed to keep the main system musical and enjoyable too, rather than a slave to 'accuracy'. Yet my experience overwhelmingly (with amplification at least) is that what measures best sounds best. The main system does all that hifi stuff really well (if that's what you are looking for), but what I have aimed for is musical synergy, not accuracy. 'Accuracy' for me is a by-product, not the object.

You may find my mythbusting article useful.... It is starting with a back to basics on power supplies.

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 13:20

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 13:36

JohnJo

22-07-2017, 13:55

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 13:58

Careful John,
Your opening up another huge can of worms there.:doh:;)
At first glance your argument seems valid but the reality appears to be impossible or you yourself or your peers would have done so already and we would all be using one. The reality is that all components have compromises and we tend to choose the one that suits our preferences.

Macca

22-07-2017, 13:59

I took your original point to be; HI FI SHOULD MEAN THE CLOSEST APROACH TO THE ORIGINAL SOUND!
My point was, and still is; what if the sound engineer cocked it up from the begining, which is why I believe most folk cant, wont, or dont want to listen to The Closest Aproach To The Original Sound!

The original sound as far as the end user goes is the recording. What happened there, and before, is irrelevant to us. What if the guitar player had a hangover and didn't do his best work? What if there was a rattle on the drum kit? What if the mics were not positioned optimally? There is no point in second guessing all that stuff.

Barry

22-07-2017, 14:06

The original sound as far as the end user goes is the recording. What happened there, and before, is irrelevant to us. What if the guitar player had a hangover and didn't do his best work? What if there was a rattle on the drum kit? What if the mics were not positioned optimally? There is no point in second guessing all that stuff.

Exactly.

If the recording engineer had "cocked it up" I want to hear it, not try and compensate for it. If I do so, by tailoring the combination of components in the replay chain, what happens when there's another, but different, recording engineer cock up?

For that reason, I don't think tone controls are the tool of the Devil: I have a few recordings where small but judicious use of tone controls is useful; much like Tom's 're-equaliser'. When it's not required it can be switched out of the system.

Starterman

22-07-2017, 14:12

walpurgis

22-07-2017, 14:15

To argue that a hi-fi amp should even have a voice strikes me as bizarre.

My thoughts too. An amplifier should amplify and do no more or less. With a good amp, it should not be possible to guess whether one was listening to any particular type of design.

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 14:27

I agree with that too Geoff,
My point was not about designing equipment that deliberately distorts whats fed to it, far from it, my point has always been about how people as individuals hear' and therefore perceive' recorded music on a personal level, and why they choose certain aspects of an audio replay chain to further enhance their listening pleasure!
My thoughts too. An amplifier should amplify and do no more or less. With a good amp, it should not be possible to guess whether one was listening to any particular type of design.

walpurgis

22-07-2017, 14:32

why they choose certain aspects of an audio replay chain to further enhance their listening pleasure!

Surely there's a bit of that in everybody's choices. I think I do it. What I mean, is that I'm more swayed by transparency and lucidity than neutrality.

Marco

22-07-2017, 14:59

...yes, but transparency and lucidity may also be a part of 'neutrality' ;)

Marco.

Marco

22-07-2017, 15:02

I took your original point to be; HI FI SHOULD MEAN THE CLOSEST APROACH TO THE ORIGINAL SOUND!
My point was, and still is; what if the sound engineer cocked it up from the begining, which is why I believe most folk cant, wont, or dont want to listen to The Closest Aproach To The Original Sound!

I think most folks here understand *exactly* where you're coming from and agree, including Jez, although he won't admit it, as it doesn't quite suit his argument! :D;)

Marco.

walpurgis

22-07-2017, 15:09

...yes, but transparency and lucidity may also be a part of 'neutrality' ;)

Marco.

:) I was implying that (most) colourations don't bother me too much!

Marco

22-07-2017, 15:33

To argue that a hi-fi amp should even have a voice strikes me as bizarre. Sure, musical instruments are voiced to create a particular sound - and so are guitar amps (though they really belong in the musical instrument category) - but hi-fi amps should be devoid of their own "voice" and simply reproduce what's fed into them.
Shouldn't they? :scratch:

In theory, yes.

However, if musical accuracy is the goal, i.e. said hi-fi amp possessing the ability to reproduce a high-fidelity recording of a guitar, so that it *genuinely* sounds like a real guitar [as the guitar did when it was initially recorded], rather than simply what a collection of measurement equipment deems as such, when the amp is tested by the designer on his bench, (but that may not actually equate to such in the real world), then during the final design stage, a good designer will 'voice' said amp, so that it delivers the former [musical accuracy], simply by subtly altering the circuit and/or changing some components used - the effect of which may be measurable or not...

That type of 'voicing', for me, is perfectly acceptable, and indeed if done correctly, highly desirable [as the designer's goal is ultimately to achieve greater musical accuracy], and a different thing altogether from 'voicing' in such as way as to deliberately colour the sound, in order to create a euphonic effect and/or ameliorate certain tonal characteristics that should be there (i.e were part of its original sound), but which may 'offend' the ears of the listener.

I trust that you can appreciate the difference?

Essentially, just because one's test equipment/measurement apparatus deems a piece of equipment 'accurate', doesn't necessarily mean that it is. Perhaps it may be electrically, but not always [I]musically - so that's when the ears of a good designer come in, to ensure that the final sound that the amplifier produces (to them) is right :)

Marco.

Marco

22-07-2017, 15:36

:) I was implying that (most) colourations don't bother me too much!

I see... Well, they would me, *if* to my ears, said coloration resulted in significantly falsifying the sound of a recorded instrument. For example, coloration that smoothed or 'rounded off' its natural raw sound.

If I'm listening to a violin or a trumpet, for example, played in the same room as me, then I want the sound my system reproduces of such (as far as possible) to 'take my head off', just as it would in real life. If something's not meant to sound 'nice', then I don't want my system making it so! :nono:

I want to hear the natural raucousness of those instruments in all its glory [as well as their timbre and tonality], simply because that's what makes a recording of such sound believable and LIFELIKE.

Marco.

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 15:46

Look lets get real here, from the beginning of the recording process, through to its end; it’s a big fat lie!
One example, one of the recording studios I go to on a regular basis has’ on one of its walls the entire string compartment of a grand piano, it is used to add echo to what is possibly an otherwise sonically underwhelming room.
Now let’s take the argument from the very beginning, would you rather listen to someone’s voice being recorded in a somewhat dead sounding room, or would it be perhaps more beguiling, or interesting, or maybe even more real sounding to use the echo effect?

Ok, now lets get on to the equipment, anything amplified will also lie, it will add to; or detract from certain sonic aspects , of the original recording, that were in the original recording after the decision was made to use the echo, or not! :eyebrows:
Why? Because the equipment is made up of components and circuitry that will impose their own sonic imperfections/character to the original signal they were given.

Another quick example; A guitarist recently brought a vintage Fender amp to me to repair, and also to ask my opinion on different rectifiers, Now going on what some here would say, Jez included, diodes dont know, or care where their electrons come from, nor do caps, etc, etc, if that were the case, then both rectifier types would sound exactly the same, guess what, the guy was almost dumbfounded after hearing how different his amp sounded, just by changing a simple rectifier valve from one type, to another, now lets get back to it :)

How do we know that each piece of kit in the replay chain is accurate?
Well’ some would say, we’ll measure them, eg, take the amplifier, well test what goes in, and what comes out, and measure any discrepancies, what if you measure two different amplifiers, from two different manufacturers, and you find that there is no discernable differences in all aspects of the test procedures performed across the audio frequency spectrum?

Well, one might come to the conclusion that both amps are telling the truth, and that either amp will do the job of faithfully reproducing what it is fed’ in the context of the audio replay chain, ie; source, speakers etc.

Now what happens when both amplifiers are tested in the system, and they both produce a similar, but slightly different portrayal of the original signal being fed to the speakers? It happens, therefore; just by these couple of examples, we can see that we often need variously different approaches’ to achieve something that resembles what we feel, as individuals that which constitutes as right or wrong as far as the audio replay chain is concerned!

Stratmangler

22-07-2017, 15:56

Look lets get real here, from the beginning of the recording process, through to its end; it’s a big fat lie!

Amen!

Marco

22-07-2017, 16:14

:exactly:

...which is why the designing of hi-fi equipment, as well as the listening to the sound it produces, is *ultimately* a subjective thing! :)

Marco.

Stratmangler

22-07-2017, 16:23

Now that we've sorted that one, are we all shutting up shop and going home? :)

Starterman

22-07-2017, 16:29

If I'm listening to a violin or a trumpet, for example, played in the same room as me, then I want the sound my system reproduces of such (as far as possible) to 'take my head off', just as it would in real life. If something's not meant to sound 'nice', then I don't want my system making it so! :nono:

I want to hear the natural raucousness of those instruments in all its glory [as well as their timbre and tonality], simply because that's what makes a recording of such sound believable and LIFELIKE.

Marco.

My experience of pretty much all recordings is that they are quite compressed and tamed compared to the real thing. Like aTD says "it's a big fat lie". Actually I would say it's a white lie. It's there to make the sound more palateable.
I have a couple of "raw" recordings and although they are very realistic, they are just too much to listen to at home. Most recording and mastering engineers are doing us a big favour with their white lies!

Haselsh1

22-07-2017, 16:29

Good point. If you listen mostly to artificially created (electronic) music, for instance, then the traditional notion of 'accurate' goes out of the window, so how can one then use it as an arbiter for such? ;)

For me, it's dead simple: the better my hi-fi system reproduces the real sound of instruments and voices (as perceived by my ears), the more I enjoy listening to recorded music featuring such. Ultimately, it's all about experiencing my notion of musical realism, and therefore what's heard in that respect, can only ever be judged subjectively by me, or perhaps also by others whose notion of such is similar.

Therefore, the enjoyment I derive from my hi-fi system is directly proportional to how well it achieves the above. I'd imagine that it's the same for most people :)

Marco.

OMG... It must be the second coming of Christ, I agree entirely :eyebrows:

My music of choice is entirely contrived and has to always go through an amplification system even when 'live' so there is no real accuracy involved. My only requirement for MY system is that I bloody love the way it makes my choice of music sound. It sounds bloody sublime at the moment and I am really enjoying it and if I were to be totally honest, I don't give a flying fuck whether it is accurate or not. It truly does not matter to me.

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 16:36

:)
My experience of pretty much all recordings is that they are quite compressed and tamed compared to the real thing. Like aTD says "it's a big fat lie". Actually I would say it's a white lie. It's there to make the sound more palateable.
I have a couple of "raw" recordings and although they are very realistic, they are just too much to listen to at home. Most recording and mastering engineers are doing us a big favour with their white lies!

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 17:45

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 18:03

Ahh but is it meaningless,,, the two rectifiers in question were well up to supplying the current needed by the amplifier, so it was not due to the fact the amps power supply was sagging, it was just a diffrent portrayal of the perceived frequency range of the amp that was observed.
Guitar amps are deliberately designed to be coloured and distorted in order to impart a particular tone or sound to them so comparison with hi fi amps is meaningless.... In the case you mention it is deliberately making the PSU crap to different extents by fitting rectifiers with different series resistance.....

In either case I don't want my hi fi making further changes to the sound which were not present or intended in the recording:)

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 18:12

anthonyTD

22-07-2017, 18:14

Aye, no worries.:)
We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.....

Arkless Electronics

22-07-2017, 18:16

Aye, no worries.:)

:)

Marco

22-07-2017, 20:30

My experience of pretty much all recordings is that they are quite compressed and tamed compared to the real thing. Like aTD says "it's a big fat lie". Actually I would say it's a white lie. It's there to make the sound more palateable.

You're right, and I agree, although I may not necessarily like the effect. However, in order to judge things properly, I'd need to hear the 'untamed' thing compared with the 'tamed' version, in order to decide which I preferred. Ultimately, however, I'm of the mindset that I prefer things 'fucked about with' the least.

I have a couple of "raw" recordings and although they are very realistic, they are just too much to listen to at home. Most recording and mastering engineers are doing us a big favour with their white lies!

Not for me, as long as said "raw" recordings are produced with the goal of achieving the highest fidelity. Those types of recordings really show off what a good system can do - and I love it!

When I say "raw" I don't mean thin and hard, or distorted - I simply mean messed about with the least, much in the way recordings used to be produced in the 50s and early 60s, with valve microphones/recording desks and minimal 'bumph' in the way of the signal path.

In that respect, some of the best recordings I own are of live music from that era (on vinyl), which sound "raw", but at the same time, incredibly detailed and dynamic :)

Most recordings these days sound 'artificially processed', and somewhat 'soft' in comparison, thus lack the sheer unadulterated realism of the best examples from said 'golden era'. That's what my ears tell me anyway!

Marco.

PalsHuffMor

22-07-2017, 21:00

You're right, and I agree, although I may not necessarily like the effect. However, in order to judge things properly, I'd need to hear the 'untamed' thing compared with the 'tamed' version, in order to decide which I preferred. Ultimately, however, I'm of the mindset that I prefer things 'fucked about with' the least.

Not for me, as long as said "raw" recordings are produced with the goal of achieving the highest fidelity. Those types of recordings really show off what a good system can do!

When I say "raw" I don't mean thin and hard, or distorted - I simply mean messed about with the least, much in the way recordings used to be produced in the 50s and early 60s, with valve microphones/recording desks and minimal 'bumph' in the way of the signal path.

In that respect, some of the best recordings I own are of live music from that era (on vinyl), which sound "raw", but incredibly detailed and dynamic :)

Most recordings these days sound 'artificially processed', and somewhat 'soft' in comparison, thus lack the sheer unadulterated realism of the best examples from said 'golden era'. That's what my ears tell me anyway!

Marco.

I have a decent number of pre 1970s classical LPs. They mostly sound open, immediate and engaging. Simpler than many modern recordings but often preferable for it. That said, I do enjoy the latest 24 bit recordings from the likes of Harmonia Mundi and Channel Classics.

RothwellAudio

22-07-2017, 21:04

At first glance your argument seems valid but the reality appears to be impossible or you yourself or your peers would have done so already and we would all be using one. The reality is that all components have compromises and we tend to choose the one that suits our preferences.
Yes, I agree, different types of distortion have different effects on the music being reproduced. For me, minimising the most objectionable distortions is the way to make the amp sound good. However, I wouldn't call that "voicing" - I'd call it just making it sound good.

I suggest getting yourself a Naim amp or an NCC200. Listen to it with the 22K TR2 collector resistor in place and shorted.
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/117203962024602657822/album/AF1QipMesegCBaj-GolNgwEG6AQltLsWExeOnMvs8avi/AF1QipNc8P73Prl6_SYr6tZpIP5Kb0xpnj7TRdibQkKT

This resistor subtly alters the distortions profile, albeit well below the supposed threshold of audibility (0.1% according to H Leak). Then you mght understand that amps can be voiced.
As above, I don't consider that voicing. It's just reducing distortion.
BTW, I have researched (practically, not just theoretically) the effects of various aspects of amplifier design and I'm quite capable of understanding that an amp's sound can be altered, thank you. I just prefer to call it reducing distortion rather than "voicing".

Marco

22-07-2017, 21:07

Hi Christopher,

I have a decent number of pre 1970s classical LPs. They mostly sound open, immediate and engaging. Simpler than many modern recordings but often preferable for it. That said, I do enjoy the latest 24 bit recordings from the likes of Harmonia Mundi and Channel Classics.

I agree, as I have access to some of the modern recordings you mention. Don't get me wrong, superb results can be achieved these days in the digital domain, it's just that more often than not, the results are mediocre, as opposed to spectacular, as indeed they could be if the required effort was put in and the right equipment used.

Marco.

Marco

22-07-2017, 21:15

Yes, I agree, different types of distortion have different effects on the music being reproduced. For me, minimising the most objectionable distortions is the way to make the amp sound good. However, I wouldn't call that "voicing" - I'd call it just making it sound good.

As above, I don't consider that voicing. It's just reducing distortion.
BTW, I have researched (practically, not just theoretically) the effects of various aspects of amplifier design and I'm quite capable of understanding that an amp's sound can be altered, thank you. I just prefer to call it reducing distortion rather than "voicing".

Yes, but "voicing" is simply a subjective term, which names the process you're describing. You could call it anything you like, Andrew.

The point is, in the final analysis, you're altering the sonic characteristics of the equipment concerned, in order to make it "sound good" (as you've admitted), and in a way that is beyond being dictated solely by your test equipment.

In short, using your ears as the final arbiter to determine what is considered as 'accurate', which ultimately is what counts!

It also shows that our ears can detect rather more than we can currently measure, otherwise what 'sounds best' would automatically be determined by test equipment alone, without the need for said "voicing" :)

Marco.

Jimbo

22-07-2017, 21:37

Yes, but "voicing" is simply a subjective term, which names the process you're describing. You could call it anything you like, Andrew.

The point is, in the final analysis, you're altering the sonic characteristics of the equipment concerned, in order to make it "sound good" (as you've admitted), and in a way that is beyond being indicated solely by your test equipment.

In short, using your ears as the final arbiter to determine what is considered as 'accurate', which ultimately is what counts!

It also shows that our ears can detect rather more than we can currently measure, otherwise what 'sounds best' would automatically be determined by test equipment alone, without the need for said "voicing" :)

Marco.

I feel we have been down this route before regarding 'voicing'. I know what you mean Marco but amplifier designers and techies seem to find it hard to admit in simple terms. They like to design out the distortions they perceive we don't want or they don't want according to what their ears or oscilloscope tells them. Then it must be correct-right!?

Anyone designing a piece of kit chooses what circuit design and what components they use to get the type of sound they want, I would call this voicing.:)

Marco

22-07-2017, 21:52

I feel we have been down this route before regarding 'voicing'. I know what you mean Marco but amplifier designers and techies seem to find it hard to admit in simple terms. They like to design out the distortions they perceive we don't want or they don't want according to what their ears or oscilloscope tells them. Then it must be correct-right!?

Lol - indeed!

Ultimately though, it's only "correct" to them or the customers who buy into the sound that their gear makes, which is why (as has been stated before) we all use different kit to play our music on, as opposed to some predetermined, objectively and conclusively judged 'boxes of indisputable accuracy', which therefore everyone would use, if such things existed.

Anyone designing a piece of kit chooses what circuit design and what components they use to get the type of sound they want, I would call this voicing.:)

So would I, as ultimately that's what it is (much like a chef may tailor a specific recipe to suit his or her idea of what 'tastes better'), but for some reason the term 'voicing' rubs 'techies' up the wrong way! :D

Marco.

Firebottle

23-07-2017, 07:22

I suppose I am in the camp that doesn't like the word 'voicing'.

It conjures up an image of changing things so it doesn't sound like an ABC amp but an XYZ amp instead. This infers to me that the 'sound' is chosen to be different as opposed to better. Better in the context of improving the performance, of making the amplifier disappear sonically, which is the goal I aspire to.

:cool:

Marco

23-07-2017, 07:53

Then we need to find a different word that conveys the same meaning, because the process itself is, quite clearly, an integral part of designing good hi-fi equipment :)

Marco.

Starterman

23-07-2017, 08:24

Yes, I agree, different types of distortion have different effects on the music being reproduced. For me, minimising the most objectionable distortions is the way to make the amp sound good. However, I wouldn't call that "voicing" - I'd call it just making it sound good.

As above, I don't consider that voicing. It's just reducing distortion.
BTW, I have researched (practically, not just theoretically) the effects of various aspects of amplifier design and I'm quite capable of understanding that an amp's sound can be altered, thank you. I just prefer to call it reducing distortion rather than "voicing".

Putting the defeinition of "voicing" to one side, I think you missed the point about the extra resistor in the Naim/NCC circuit. It adds even order distortion (actually it's rather clever, it makes the LTP act more like a singleton input at ac whist retaining the excellent dc characteristics of an LTP) and alters the sound significantly. All this is at a level below the supposed audibility level for distortion. I cettainly the prefer the higher distortion version and I suspect >90% would if they did the experiment.

How does that fit with your research?

BTW, I also have a compoung chip amp with ppm levels of THD. It's far from my favourite amp.

Marco

23-07-2017, 08:34

Interesting... Consider then the notion that not ALL forms of distortion are bad, and that some may in fact increase the 'musicality' of the equipment concerned, thus enabling it to portray voices and instruments more convincingly and realistically to the human ear.

In actuality therefore, in terms of adjustments to the Naim circuit in question, you've made things better, not worse. Sometimes, in the quest for making something as 'pure' as possible, based on measurements alone, it can end up simply being sterile.... ;)

Marco.

Jimbo

23-07-2017, 08:42

One mans distortion is another mans sonic Nirvana.

I was reading an interesting review of a Hifi product the other day and the journalist was joined by a couple of other people to listen to the equipment. What the reviewer found, and I know this sounds obvious, was that each person listening to the equipment perceived different aspects both in how the equipment sounded but also highlighted which aspects were important to them.

Now we all know that listening to a system and evaluating it depends where you are sitting in relation to the equipment but also taking into fact our own different perceptions of hearing and ability to hear, we all come up with a different result. It is often the case that what one person finds great about a pair of speakers maybe totally different to another and therefore colour our judgement but delving deeper it is also true that different components of the sound are latched onto by the listener.

For example one person may notice how much air surrounds an instrument whilst another may be drawn to the realism of the vocals. We all have sonic clues that tell us what we like and for some these maybe multiple and therefore have to tick lots of boxes before the hairs start to stand on the back of our neck.

What I have learned is that with differing perception and hearing we all judge things quite differently and some folk may hear no difference at all between say one cable and another where someone else hears night and day.

So taking into consideration the hearing ability and principles of an audio equipment designer, what they believe is important to them when building and listening to a piece of equipment may or may not be what someone else thinks sounds good. We can only put forward our own perceptions as we hear them but should always be mindful that they may not be what others hear.

Marco

23-07-2017, 08:50

So taking into consideration the hearing ability and principles of an audio equipment designer, what they believe is important to them when building and listening to a piece of equipment may or may not be what someone else thinks sounds good.

Indeed, and that's the bottom line... It's hee-haw use designing something that equates to a measurist's wet dream, if no-one likes how it sounds!! :D

It's also why, in the design of audio equipment, there can be no 'one true path' :)

Marco.

Macca

23-07-2017, 08:58

Marco

23-07-2017, 09:12

Some recordings, especially studio recordings, do sound sterile. If you 'jazz up' your amp to make sterile recordings sound 'more musical' what does this do to recordings that are not sterile? Makes them sound a bit rough and ragged, and then people start to fixate on recording quality instead of musical content and the amp starts to dictate what you listen to.

Absolutely, but that argument centres on how one defines 'musical' or 'sterile', and crucially how it's applied to recordings or equipment design. For me, anally obsessing over removing all forms of distortion can sometimes result in removing information that should be there, in order for music to sound real.

For me, there's much more to it than that, which requires some lateral thinking. To an extent, you have to allow equipment to 'breathe', not strangle it to death...

Remember the 'spec wars' of the 70s? Some of those Jap amps were more distortion-free than a very distortion-free thing, but they were also about as musically involving as a badger's fart!

As ever with things audio, it's a question of striking the right balance between technical accuracy and musicality, and you can bet your boots that the designers who get that right the most, generally create the best sounding equipment ;)

Marco.

Macca

23-07-2017, 09:40

...

Remember the 'spec wars' of the 70s? Some of those Jap amps were more distortion-free than a very distortion-free thing, but they were also about as musically involving as a badger's fart!

.

No I am too young but I think it was Hitachi who came up with a flagship power amp that supposedly measured 'perfectly', and which was denounced by the UK press as being boring and uninvolving. Not having heard one I don't know if that is true or not, what I do know is that the UK hifi press gave us 'flat earth' which was all about using distortion to make it sound 'real' and 'exciting' and that this tends to be the sort of kit I really don't like from a personal point of view. So I might find the 'perfect' Hitachi to be right up my street.

As Jim says above we are not all looking for the same sound. Don't know about anyone else but I have had the 'idea' of what my ideal sounding hi-fi system is like in my head for a long time, since being a teenager in fact. I suspect that is true of most of us, but I have learned that what we consider our ideal varies quite a bit from person to person.

Jimbo

23-07-2017, 10:35

No I am too young but I think it was Hitachi who came up with a flagship power amp that supposedly measured 'perfectly', and which was denounced by the UK press as being boring and uninvolving. Not having heard one I don't know if that is true or not, what I do know is that the UK hifi press gave us 'flat earth' which was all about using distortion to make it sound 'real' and 'exciting' and that this tends to be the sort of kit I really don't like from a personal point of view. So I might find the 'perfect' Hitachi to be right up my street.

As Jim says above we are not all looking for the same sound. Don't know about anyone else but I have had the 'idea' of what my ideal sounding hi-fi system is like in my head for a long time, since being a teenager in fact. I suspect that is true of most of us, but I have learned that what we consider our ideal varies quite a bit from person to person.

Your last paragraph is so true Martin. I built my current system around what pressed all the buttons for me when I was in late teens,maybe there is something in that fact. Like tasting your first good curry, it is a memory that is deeply ingrained and very influential in later life. Our impressions made when we are young are very strong whether right or wrong but they influence us significantly.:)

Marco, I am old enough to remember the THD wars amplifier manufacturers used to sell their stuff!:lol:

Marco

23-07-2017, 11:13

No I am too young but I think it was Hitachi who came up with a flagship power amp that supposedly measured 'perfectly', and which was denounced by the UK press as being boring and uninvolving.

Me too, but I've read some of the magazines produced during that era, which featured reviews of the amps in question, but more importantly have in recent times heard some of those amps myself, and rather 'meh' sounding is about right. You'd use them more for producing background music than anything else.

However, they're not all like that, hence why some of the best vintage 'battleship build' Jap amps can sound great, but as a 'breed' in general, they do have the tendency to sound musically anodyne.

As Jim says above we are not all looking for the same sound. Don't know about anyone else but I have had the 'idea' of what my ideal sounding hi-fi system is like in my head for a long time, since being a teenager in fact. I suspect that is true of most of us, but I have learned that what we consider our ideal varies quite a bit from person to person.

Absolutely, although I usually just judge things as I hear them, without any preconceptions of what my 'ideal' sound is. Luckily, I'm at the stage now with my system where I very rarely consider how it 'sounds'; I just simply enjoy the music it makes :)

Marco.

Marco

23-07-2017, 11:15

Marco, I am old enough to remember the THD wars amplifier manufacturers used to sell their stuff!:lol:

Lol - it all seemed rather ridiculous to me... Like one big measurist's 'wankathon'! :D:doh:

Marco.

Pharos

23-07-2017, 11:53

I agree with Jez about an amp contributing nothing, but of course there are degrees of failure to get near that ideal.

I hope that members agree that on the whole the pursuit of zero error has resulted in many very competent amplifiers which sound very similar.

The criteria we use to measure amps perhaps do not fully define the behaviour of an amplifier; we don't know everything.

I also agree that we may well have differing sensibilities that result in us being more aware of some error characteristics than others, and so we probably each choose those errors which least offend us.

It is important to realise that what we hear is largely the result of our brain processing, and that that is very much open to subjectivity.

In the case of the sound engineer with a differing hearing sensitivity, surely this would also apply both to the source sound which he hears and to what he hears on his mix; he would try replicate that sound and the error would apply both to the original sound, and to his facsimile of it.

Macca

23-07-2017, 11:59

Lol - it all seemed rather ridiculous to me... Like one big measurist's 'wankathon'! :D:doh:

Marco.

More like the Marketing Department's wankathon. As you know if you need to sell your product in a saturated market you need a USP, something to hang you hat on. You can't just say 'Buy our amp it sounds really good'. You can't hear a magazine advertisement. So they meet with the engineers and ask them 'What is so great about this amp?' and are told 'well it has 0.000003% THD' (it is always 3 for some reason no matter how many noughts are in front) so that's what they highlight in the ad.

Now the ad, unless it is for a budget amp you might buy blind mail order, is only designed to get you into the showroom to listen. After that it is the dealer's job to carry on the sales process. If great distortion figure are getting people's attention, that is what they will run with.

That hasn't happened in a long time in the UK because we had flat earth and were told specs are a waste if time and tell you nothing - just go to the dealer and listen with no pre-conceived notions. So the ads had to move away from selling via specs and into more abstract territory - the Naim ads of the 70s and 80s are a good example of that.

But none of that is the fault of the engineers.

Marco

23-07-2017, 12:09

More like the Marketing Department's wankathon.

Agreed, yet it doesn't stop some folk even now obsessing over measured distortion in equipment design, almost to the exclusion of all else. That '70s mentality' is unfortunately still embedded today in the psyche of some designers and users alike, whilst they blissfully miss the bigger picture, which arguably in some ways is more important.

Marco.

Stratmangler

23-07-2017, 12:29

Agreed, yet it doesn't stop some folk now obsessing over measured distortion in equipment design, almost to the exclusion of all else. That '70s mentality' is unfortunately still embedded today in the psyche of some designers and users alike, whilst they blissfully miss the bigger picture, which arguably in some ways is more important.

Marco.

Some of the best stuff I've heard is designed by folk who are rather obsessive about measurements, yet their offerings sound superb.
It depends on what you're measuring and why.
These same folk actually listen to what they're designing and building, and manage not to lose sight of the bigger picture.

RichB

23-07-2017, 12:36

Sorry if I've missed it but did we establish a position on the Linear vs SMPS question?

Stratmangler

23-07-2017, 13:05

Sorry if I've missed it but did we establish a position on the Linear vs SMPS question?

Nope!

PalsHuffMor

23-07-2017, 13:08

Nope!

Not without listening to them...

Marco

23-07-2017, 14:52

Some of the best stuff I've heard is designed by folk who are rather obsessive about measurements, yet their offerings sound superb.
It depends on what you're measuring and why.
These same folk actually listen to what they're designing and building, and manage not to lose sight of the bigger picture.

Lol, yes, as I know whom you're referring to, and completely agree! And that's largely because *ultimately* they trust their ears more than their test equipment ;)

However, I've also heard equipment (and complete systems) belonging to 'obsessive measurists' that I wouldn't give house room to, for all the reasons I've previously mentioned!

Marco.

bumpy

23-07-2017, 15:33

Well I've listened and I wouldn't let SMPS anywhere near my system.

fatmarley

23-07-2017, 16:35

Well I've listened and I wouldn't let SMPS anywhere near my system.

That's a bit harsh ;)

Arkless Electronics

23-07-2017, 16:46

Well I've listened and I wouldn't let SMPS anywhere near my system.

An over active imagination is something that unfortunately afflicts the majority of audiophiles...
I will be showing in my mythbusters thread that ultimately much equipment needing an external supply is pretty much impervious to any effects from the PSU when properly designed. There will of course be some ifs and buts....
I'd happily run everything in my system from external SMPS provided that the output from them was properly dealt with.

The worst PSU's in hi fi are the ones you never hear anyone complaining about... because they've not been "told" there is something wrong with them in order to imagine that they can then hear a problem! I'm talking about the ones powering virtually every power amp;)

RothwellAudio

23-07-2017, 17:02

... I think it was Hitachi who came up with a flagship power amp that supposedly measured 'perfectly'...
I think you might be referring to a circuit that Hitachi published for their complementary power MOSFETs. Maplin used to sell a very popular power amp kit that used the Hitachi circuit and I made an amp with a pair of them many years ago. It was actually a very good amp but I've heard better since then.

It depends on what you're measuring and why.
Yes, I agree. Power amp distortion is most often quoted at full - or nearly full - power output, but what about what's happening at the other end of the power spectrum? In my opinion that's more important.

Arkless Electronics

23-07-2017, 17:17

I think you might be referring to a circuit that Hitachi published for their complementary power MOSFETs. Maplin used to sell a very popular power amp kit that used the Hitachi circuit and I made an amp with a pair of them many years ago. It was actually a very good amp but I've heard better since then.

Yes, I agree. Power amp distortion is most often quoted at full - or nearly full - power output, but what about what's happening at the other end of the power spectrum? In my opinion that's more important.

I built those as well. Pretty good amps yes. The commercial Hitachi amps were a little different though. I remember showing them working with a sig gen and scope for a 6th form science open night! That design from Hitachi USA applications department surely has to be the most used/copied in all of hi-fi! Obviously it was put in the public domain to encourage sales of Hitachi power mosfets but it was used by Musical Fidelity, Perreaux, Myst, Inca Tech to name just a few...

On your second point I quite agree. So does Pass Labs with their "First Watt" stuff.

bumpy

23-07-2017, 19:40

Jez, are there any components you can hear a sonic difference with. I am thinking capacitors, resistors etc

montesquieu

23-07-2017, 20:10

Putting the defeinition of "voicing" to one side, I think you missed the point about the extra resistor in the Naim/NCC circuit. It adds even order distortion (actually it's rather clever, it makes the LTP act more like a singleton input at ac whist retaining the excellent dc characteristics of an LTP) and alters the sound significantly. All this is at a level below the supposed audibility level for distortion. I cettainly the prefer the higher distortion version and I suspect >90% would if they did the experiment.

How does that fit with your research?

BTW, I also have a compoung chip amp with ppm levels of THD. It's far from my favourite amp.

Trust Naim to build a nice bit of kit then stick a resistor that buggers the sound up ... I suppose there's a £££ 'upgrade' to take it out again? :P

... I'll get ma jaikit ....

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 07:34

Good point. If you listen mostly to artificially created (electronic) music, for instance, then the traditional notion of 'accurate' goes out of the window, so how can one then use it as an arbiter for such? ;)

For me, it's dead simple: the better my hi-fi system reproduces the real sound of instruments and voices (as perceived by my ears), the more I enjoy listening to recorded music featuring such. Ultimately, it's all about experiencing my notion of musical realism, and therefore what's heard in that respect, can only ever be judged subjectively by me, or perhaps also by others whose notion of such is similar.

Therefore, the enjoyment I derive from my hi-fi system is directly proportional to how well it achieves the above. I'd imagine that it's the same for most people :)

Marco.In electronic music there are still a lot of recognisable sounds, an 808 kick, the infamous 808 cowbell, Yamaha FM basses (Lately Bass especially), AKAI samplers had their own stamp on the sound, use of Roland Juno synths for dance music etc. Some people still use hardware to make electronic music, all the better for it, once in software it all changes, and so do the reference points - 'cleaner' and more clinical too in software.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 07:51

Jez, are there any components you can hear a sonic difference with. I am thinking capacitors, resistors etc:popcorn:

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

Arkless Electronics

24-07-2017, 08:17

Jez, are there any components you can hear a sonic difference with. I am thinking capacitors, resistors etc

90% of nth degree changes audiophiles claim to hear are non existent and due purely to the imagination.
How many % distortion does there need to be from your SET's before you hear it?

Marco

24-07-2017, 08:30

In electronic music there are still a lot of recognisable sounds, an 808 kick, the infamous 808 cowbell, Yamaha FM basses (Lately Bass especially), AKAI samplers had their own stamp on the sound, use of Roland Juno synths for dance music etc. Some people still use hardware to make electronic music, all the better for it, once in software it all changes, and so do the reference points - 'cleaner' and more clinical too in software.

No worries, Neil, and noted. My point was simply that it's ultimately all artificially created, unlike say, the sound of an acoustic guitar.

Marco.

Marco

24-07-2017, 08:33

90% of nth degree changes audiophiles claim to hear are non existent and due purely to the imagination.

That's good then because most of the time I've compared the best caps and resistors, with standard types, in any equipment I've used, the changes (improvements) heard have been of the patently obvious, rather than nth degree variety! :D;)

Marco.

Starterman

24-07-2017, 08:35

Trust Naim to build a nice bit of kit then stick a resistor that buggers the sound up ... I suppose there's a £££ 'upgrade' to take it out again? :P

... I'll get ma jaikit ....

The resistor effects a more natural balance of harmonics in the distortion profile - more like valve amps tend to have. As far as I can tell Naim has always provided this for no extra charge.
Also, FWIW the modest output impedance of Naim amps means they might have a lot more in common with your STA100 than you realise.

MrRadish

24-07-2017, 09:39

So grateful to hear of anyone's experience when switching from a switched PSU to a linear PSU (or the other way round) on an audio item?

I feel like I'm drifting off topic answering this, given where the rest of the thread has gone :-)

I've had or have some Maplin test bench LPSU, HDPlex LPSU, iFi iPower SMPS, Russ Andrews PowerPak 2 SMPS, Longdog Audio LPSU, cheap Maplin SMPS and SoTM mbps-d2s battery pack. I used them to power either a PPA v2 card, SoTM PCIe card or a Hi-Face EVO converter. I didn't have them all at the same time, but the Maplins and HDPlex provided a constant reference point. I had two of most of the units to handle 5v and 9v, but found the results (comparisons) were the same regardless of what I was powering. I mostly swapped them over in pairs, where feasible.

The cheap Maplin SMPS was awful, noisy and just yeeuch...
The Maplin test bench were mediocre with poor transparency, poor liquidity and a slight treble roll off, though they were reasonably musical and had decent bass weight.
The HDPlex was almost identical to the Maplin LPSU but a little more rolled off in the treble and slightly more musical. Pleasant but low-fi.
The iFi were technically fine (no roll-off), reasonably transparent and didn't draw attention to themselves, but they weren't particularly musical. I just got bored listening to them.
The Russ Andrews SMPS was beautifully sweet, open and transparent with excellent treble purity and very musical, but slightly lean in the bass. I only had a 9v one of those, so that was testing with the EVO.
The SoTM battery pack was a good all-rounder with no deficiencies and reasonably musical, but not as transparent or enjoyable as the RA (testing with the EVO).
The Longdog supplies are the best of the bunch, with a musical, liquid, well-balanced sound that doesn't draw attention to itself. I don't know if they're as open as the RA, but it's not something I can compare any more.

I should also add a couple of riders:
1. All my testing used substantial mains filtering or regeneration. The SoTM battery supply's main strength is that it doesn't need any of that (for itself), so the other supplies had a helping hand.
2. I've used both SMPS and LPSU ATX power at various points and on one occasion devoting an AG1500 just to the SMPS ATX unit and running the USB card and everything after that from a different regenerator produced excellent results. That was with the Maplin LPSU in place, so the quality and cleanliness of the AC feeding these supplies seems to matter a lot.

RothwellAudio

24-07-2017, 09:54

I suggest getting yourself a Naim amp or an NCC200. Listen to it with the 22K TR2 collector resistor in place and shorted.
https://get.google.com/albumarchive/117203962024602657822/album/AF1QipMesegCBaj-GolNgwEG6AQltLsWExeOnMvs8avi/AF1QipNc8P73Prl6_SYr6tZpIP5Kb0xpnj7TRdibQkKT

This resistor subtly alters the distortions profile, albeit well below the supposed threshold of audibility (0.1% according to H Leak). Then you mght understand that amps can be voiced.

Putting the defeinition of "voicing" to one side, I think you missed the point about the extra resistor in the Naim/NCC circuit. It adds even order distortion (actually it's rather clever, it makes the LTP act more like a singleton input at ac whist retaining the excellent dc characteristics of an LTP) and alters the sound significantly. All this is at a level below the supposed audibility level for distortion. I cettainly the prefer the higher distortion version and I suspect >90% would if they did the experiment.

How does that fit with your research?

I believe an amp with a differential input (aka long tail pair) is entirely reliant on the performance of the LTP if it's going to sound any good. This concurs with Douglas Self's findings, so I'm not alone - though it should be obvious that the LTP is at the very heart of the amp. If I'm not mistaken those two 100R resistors coming off the emitters of the LTP are Les Wolstenholme's addition and are designed to balance up the two transistors through local feedback (emitter degeneration). In my opinion the 22k collector resistor is a sideshow (if not a plain mistake) and there are other parts of Naim's circuit that I would concentrate on.
BTW, it's possible to do more than just have two transistors forming the differential input and effort spent there does pay dividends.

Gazjam

24-07-2017, 10:26

In my experience,
any switching supply I've swapped out for linear has been an improvement in sound quality.
used to run a digital system with 5 of 'em in place!

Its not about 'adding improvement' imo, but taking away a source of crap on the mains supply, which when you think about it is what becomes the music you hear.

killie99

24-07-2017, 10:33

If everything was properly designed and then manufactured to that design we might not be having these debates but unfortunately not everything is properly designed, and even if it is, it's quite often not properly made.

The vast majority of products get designed to a price - lower quality parts gets used than might be preferred and lower tolerance parts are used to get the right 'price'.

I work in the electronic manufacturing industry (no hifi items but very high end computer equipment - multi $Million stuff) and have done for 30 odd years. Parts get substituted all the time - different vendor, different spec - and that's building stuff in house! Nobody calls the design engineer to get his approval or builds 20 units and sends them off for testing. The parts get used and if everything passes test that's it.
Getting your product made by a 3rd party? - welcome to the world of counterfeit parts as they buy parts from whoever is selling them the cheapest. Ever tried to figure out who the manufacturer is of surface mount passives after they've been placed on the boards? Or the value or tolerance of the parts used?

Yes there are some very good off the shelf SMPS's but they tend to be very expensive. There are lots of very bad SMPS's available, built to a price point, with poor quality parts and poor quality control. I see them every day returned to us and depending on the model you pretty much know what's going to be wrong - same thing failing again and again because the parts are being used outwith or right on the limit of their spec.

Looking at DIY power supplies, SMPS's are not something your average DIY'er would attempt to build, too many components and difficult to fix if you make a mistake and get magic smoke. Linear supplies are far easier to build and far easier to fix. If you have the skills you can build a very good linear supply for not a lot of money. There are some very good linear designs out there for the DIY'er- SuperTeddyReg, AMB Labs Sigma 11 and Sigma 22 and Sjostrom to name a few where you can buy the bare circuit board and build it yourself.

As they say, horses for courses. If you're going the DIY route build a linear. If you're buying off the shelf buy either type from a very reputable company. At least then you're more likely to get a properly designed, properly manufactured power supply built with the parts the designer intended- and if you buy a non hifi branded one it'll probably be at least half the price :) Will it make your hifi sound any better? It might but it might not. Like all things hifi, there's no definitive answer just a load of people with their tuppence worth of thoughts.

Starterman

24-07-2017, 10:54

I believe an amp with a differential input (aka long tail pair) is entirely reliant on the performance of the LTP if it's going to sound any good. This concurs with Douglas Self's findings, so I'm not alone - though it should be obvious that the LTP is at the very heart of the amp. If I'm not mistaken those two 100R resistors coming off the emitters of the LTP are Les Wolstenholme's addition and are designed to balance up the two transistors through local feedback (emitter degeneration). In my opinion the 22k collector resistor is a sideshow (if not a plain mistake) and there are other parts of Naim's circuit that I would concentrate on.
BTW, it's possible to do more than just have two transistors forming the differential input and effort spent there does pay dividends.

Apologies to all for being OT.
We should probably start a new thread.

The 22k is anything but a mistake. It is is very enlightening to listen to the amp with it shorted and with it in place. Until you have tried this you are speculating.
I thought the same as you for many years, but this opened my mind to some new avenues to explore on "why do amps sound different".

I wouldn't get too hung up on Selfie, he has done some great research but he's obsessed only with minimising THD. He can't see the wood for the trees.

montesquieu

24-07-2017, 11:01

The resistor effects a more natural balance of harmonics in the distortion profile - more like valve amps tend to have. As far as I can tell Naim has always provided this for no extra charge.
Also, FWIW the modest output impedance of Naim amps means they might have a lot more in common with your STA100 than you realise.

Can you explain? Damping factor is fairly mainstream for a valve amp, though the distortion figures are rather special:

http://www.radfordrevival.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/STA100-Leaflet-P4.jpg

http://www.radfordrevival.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/STA100-Leaflet-P2.jpg

http://www.radfordrevival.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/STA100-Leaflet-P3.jpg

Starterman

24-07-2017, 11:07

I feel like I'm drifting off topic answering this, given where the rest of the thread has gone :-)

I've had or have some Maplin test bench LPSU, HDPlex LPSU, iFi iPower SMPS, Russ Andrews PowerPak 2 SMPS, Longdog Audio LPSU, cheap Maplin SMPS and SoTM mbps-d2s battery pack. I used them to power either a PPA v2 card, SoTM PCIe card or a Hi-Face EVO converter. I didn't have them all at the same time, but the Maplins and HDPlex provided a constant reference point. I had two of most of the units to handle 5v and 9v, but found the results (comparisons) were the same regardless of what I was powering. I mostly swapped them over in pairs, where feasible.

The cheap Maplin SMPS was awful, noisy and just yeeuch...
The Maplin test bench were mediocre with poor transparency, poor liquidity and a slight treble roll off, though they were reasonably musical and had decent bass weight.
The HDPlex was almost identical to the Maplin LPSU but a little more rolled off in the treble and slightly more musical. Pleasant but low-fi.
The iFi were technically fine (no roll-off), reasonably transparent and didn't draw attention to themselves, but they weren't particularly musical. I just got bored listening to them.
The Russ Andrews SMPS was beautifully sweet, open and transparent with excellent treble purity and very musical, but slightly lean in the bass. I only had a 9v one of those, so that was testing with the EVO.
The SoTM battery pack was a good all-rounder with no deficiencies and reasonably musical, but not as transparent or enjoyable as the RA (testing with the EVO).
The Longdog supplies are the best of the bunch, with a musical, liquid, well-balanced sound that doesn't draw attention to itself. I don't know if they're as open as the RA, but it's not something I can compare any more.

I should also add a couple of riders:
1. All my testing used substantial mains filtering or regeneration. The SoTM battery supply's main strength is that it doesn't need any of that (for itself), so the other supplies had a helping hand.
2. I've used both SMPS and LPSU ATX power at various points and on one occasion devoting an AG1500 just to the SMPS ATX unit and running the USB card and everything after that from a different regenerator produced excellent results. That was with the Maplin LPSU in place, so the quality and cleanliness of the AC feeding these supplies seems to matter a lot.

Good write-up. Thanks!

I have no technical bias against SMPS but all the 'standard' ones like an iPad charger or SB wallwarts are easily beaten by a decent DIY linear.
I would never pay more than the value of the parts for somebody else's PS because I would rather do it myslef and learn what affects the sound and how. Therefore anything above £50 is OoB for me.
After quite a lot of experimenting I have found quite a good sounding solution for 5V digital supplies. I was sort of tempted by an iFi given all the positive reviews but your comments have removed my temptation. For that alone I thank you;-). I have enough gubbins in the junk cupboard!!

MrRadish

24-07-2017, 11:16

I would never pay more than the value of the parts for somebody else's PS because I would rather do it myslef and learn what affects the sound and how.

I wish I had the skills to do that, but I'd just electrocute myself!

Starterman

24-07-2017, 11:30

Can you explain? Damping factor is fairly mainstream for a valve amp, though the distortion figures are rather special:

The 0.22R resistor Naim uses means the DF is similar to that of the ST100 (and similar PP valve amps).
Most SS amps have much higher DF.

Starterman

24-07-2017, 11:31

I wish I had the skills to do that, but I'd just electrocute myself!

Don't worry, you would only do that once! :-)

Edward

24-07-2017, 11:44

I've had or have some Maplin test bench LPSU, HDPlex LPSU, iFi iPower SMPS, Russ Andrews PowerPak 2 SMPS, Longdog Audio LPSU, cheap Maplin SMPS and SoTM mbps-d2s battery pack.

<snip>

Thanks very much Andy. Lots to chew on there. Overall a mixed picture I'm guessing. I've heard Longdog at some shows and they always impress. But perhaps it is 'cos they partner with excellent other stuff.

I'm using an IsoTek 'Qube' to condition the mains. The change is subtle but definitely there (I can easily switch over to not using it so therefore can compare). What I really need to do is get a friend to switch things over randomly without me knowing so as to remove any possible expectation bias. I'll try that soon.

I'll bow to Jez's deep electrical knowledge but I guess that a clean mains power supply will reduce even further any (perceived) differences between switched and linear PSUs.

I'm still keen to finish off the part built LPSU I have - need to find someone local who can solder neatly. The guy I got the parts from used the same parts to create a LPSU and he said it made a world of difference. I've yet to be convinced - hence me starting this thread - which certainly has taken an interesting and worthwhile detour in the meantime. :) :cool:

Edward

24-07-2017, 11:48

After quite a lot of experimenting I have found quite a good sounding solution for 5V digital supplies.

May I ask what was your solution please?

Stratmangler

24-07-2017, 11:53

I've heard Longdog at some shows and they always impress. But perhaps it is 'cos they partner with excellent other stuff

In the main it's due to Nick being obsessional about the power supply.
The PSU has to be extremely quiet, and stiff enough for the job.
The PSU has to be correct to make the rest work properly.

stairpost

24-07-2017, 12:38

Given the vast amounts of each component on the market (sources, amps, speakers, cables etc) and the limitless variations you could achieve in the combinations of those components, isn't it completely futile trying to find a combination that everyone likes?

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 12:45

stairpost

24-07-2017, 12:51

It is impossible, and a big enough challenge to find something that *you* like.

I agree completely, I am very happy with my system at last, but half the people that listen to it are likely to find fault, or that it isn't their preferred sound.

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 12:59

I agree completely, I am very happy with my system at last, but half the people that listen to it are likely to find fault, or that it isn't their preferred sound.There is only one "measurement" that I apply to HiFi, and that is long-term listening enjoyment. Sitting down and critiquing a system for an afternoon is not that.

Pharos

24-07-2017, 13:06

Unless you share my objectivist leaning views, in which case after a change, the verification of an improvement with further listening gives ongoing pleasure, and for a long time.

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 13:10

Unless you share my objectivist leaning views, in which case after a change, the verification of an improvement with further listening gives ongoing pleasure, and for a long time.

Same thing. :)

Be it a measurements-based decision, a perceived technical improvement, or just a feeling, if you like it after a long time - grows on you even - then it's the right move.

stairpost

24-07-2017, 13:53

There is only one "measurement" that I apply to HiFi, and that is long-term listening enjoyment. Sitting down and critiquing a system for an afternoon is not that.

I have to agree with you again, I don't recall ever sitting and listening to a system that belonged to a friend or aquintance and mentioning anything I might not have liked about it. It's their taste not mine, it is much more enjoyable to discuss what I do like about it.

Marco

24-07-2017, 14:03

There are lots of very bad SMPS's available, built to a price point, with poor quality parts and poor quality control.

That's my biggest issue with SMPS: the utterly crap ones you're referring to, which feature inside every electrical appliance in our homes, polluting the mains supply our hi-fi systems share with noise and interference, which in the process seriously degrades sound quality, not the top-notch variety the likes of Jez, or other EEs here, would build into their equipment designs.

Therefore, said noise being a fact, one of the biggest upgrades you can do for your system is to isolate it (as far as is possible) from the sonically deleterious effects of poor quality SMPS units in your home, via installing a dedicated ring main.

Everything will ultimately still share the same electrical supply, but you can drastically reduce how much those items interfere with your hi-fi system, by installing a dedicated ring main/spur. You can also bet your boots, that were it possible or practical to achieve, replacing every cheap SMPS unit in your home with a linear one, would be even better!

The question I have for Jez, or any other EE here, however, is given how 'noisy' poor quality SMPS units are, thus how much they pollute the mains, I'm presuming that high-quality ones are notably less noisy?

What I'm really getting at, however, is this:

Leaving aside the 'what's best?' thing, in terms of sound quality, between SMPS and linear, is it the case that due to the switching nature of SMPS units, they will (to varying degrees, depending on how good they are) chuck crap into the mains supply, or are the best ones completely free from that trait, in the way of a good linear PSU?

Essentially, for the same price or less, can a high-quality SMPS be built that's as 'clean' (in respect of the above) as an equivalent linear PSU?

What I *need* to know if I'm using an SMPS, in a hi-fi application, is that in doing so I'm not injecting any form of noise or interference [even the tiniest bit] into my mains supply, as for me (as a purist) that would be a big no-no.

*That* is the crucial question. If yes, then I'd always use a top-notch linear PSU, for all hi-fi applications. If not, however, then I'd have no real qualms about using SMPS, providing that SQ-wise it was up to the task, in comparison with the BEST available of the linear variety.

Over to you guys! :cool:

Marco.

stairpost

24-07-2017, 14:08

MrRadish

24-07-2017, 15:10

Overall a mixed picture I'm guessing

My take is that the quality of the design and the parts used is far more important than the type of supply it is - a good SMPS will be just as good as a good LPSU. Having said that I still filter my mains so all LPSU are on one regenerator and all SMPS are on another - just to cover all the bases. :mental:

Marco

24-07-2017, 15:58

...a good SMPS will be just as good as a good LPSU.

My concern is over what the 'S' stands for in 'SMPS'.

How much will the switching effect in any SMPS (even the best ones) inject interference/noise into the mains supply that my precious hi-fi components are ultimately sharing with it......??

:hmm: :hmm:

Marco.

Bonky

24-07-2017, 16:06

How do we know if out SMPS units are injecting noise (besides using one's ears and guessing)?

Is there a cheap way of objectively measuring it? (I'd imagine one uses an oscilloscope - and there are cheapish ones on eBay -but if that's all one can use - are they any good?)

Richard

Marco

24-07-2017, 16:22

How do we know if out SMPS units are injecting noise (besides using one's ears and guessing)?

As a subjectivist, Richard, I just use my ears.

One such recent experience was simply having a quality linear PSU built for the Seagate hard-drives, suppling music files to my Raspberry Pi streamer, which replaced their stock (el-cheapo) SMPS units, and which had a significant marked effect on the SQ of the Pi, simply by removing the noise that the stock SMPS units were pumping into the mains.

Honestly, I was utterly shocked at the level of sonic improvement gained, which ably showed just how shit those mass-produced SMPS units are. Just think about what all the other ones are doing inside TVs, SKY boxes, fridges, computers, phone chargers, you name it, which are currently plugged into your mains...! :eek:

I also obtained similar benefit in replacing the SMPS unit for the RPi itself with a quality linear one, from Paul Hynes (his SR3DR-05). If switching noise could be measured, and thus confirmed objectively, then even better, but either way I'll always judge these things with my ears and experience :)

Marco.

MrRadish

24-07-2017, 16:36

Putting my router and NAS on the same regenerator as the rest of my system caused a dreadful clouding of the sound, so they got moved off again pretty quick! But then my NAD M51 never seemed to cause any trouble, and nor did the little SMPS that came with my Caiman, so either it depends on how much power they draw or some are less trouble than others.

Marco

24-07-2017, 16:42

...or the SMPS in your NAD (for example) was designed better, and of superior quality, to the ones used in your router and NAS? And that was why it didn't appear to cause a negative sonic effect.

That's why I'd like Jez to confirm how much cleaner SMPS units are in top-quality hi-fi equipment, compared with those commonly found on inferior consumer goods, and crucially, if they can ever be as clean [let's call it 'kind' on the mains supply] as a top-notch linear design...

However, the negative experience you've outlined mirrors my own, which shows that you should always keep the 'noisiest' components in your system well away from the rest!

Marco.

Yomanze

24-07-2017, 17:04

I think Jez is referring to the fact that his units have very high PSRR, so are pretty much immune from the effects of a SMPS. However, the impact on the entire audio chain may tell another story.

anthonyTD

24-07-2017, 17:18

:)
. However, the impact on the entire audio chain may tell another story.

Starterman

24-07-2017, 17:30

May I ask what was your solution please?

Yes of course you can ask :D

Actually there are no secret or special parts in it...

An EI core transformer (mine is a 30VA pcb mount split bobbin type, but a C-core would probably be fine) - don't use a toroidal one, the sound is horrible.
Use centre tapped FW rectifiers (2 diodes). The diodes should have low slope resistance. Soft recovery might be a benefit, speed is not critical. The diodes are fine on the board below.
This is a good sounding reg:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-low-Noise-40-V-Adjustable-Voltage-Regulator-Module-1-25-20V-1-5-Amp-/161492352376?hash=item2599b1bd78:g:qA8AAOSwo8hTnqI V
You will need to use the 0V connection to effect the 2-diode rectifier and lift a couple of the on-board diodes' legs.

The LT3042 board on ebay is also supposed to be good. I haven't tried it. I did try an mravica reg off DIYAudio - not to my taste.

Marco

24-07-2017, 17:36

I think Jez is referring to the fact that his units have very high PSRR, so are pretty much immune from the effects of a SMPS. However, the impact on the entire audio chain may tell another story.

Indeed - and that is *precisely* my argument! :)

Forget about the deleterious sonic effect on the item itself, fitted with an SMPS, (if it's been designed suitably well enough to reject it), but consider instead the potential knock-on effect on the rest of the system components, connected to the same mains supply...

Marco.

Bonky

24-07-2017, 17:43

Yes, but...but...but... is there an easy and cheap way of measuring the mains noise one supposedly gets from switching mode supplies?
( I have two linear PSs for my Caiman and Pi but not for my NAS which is on the same ring main as is my router).

Has anyone bought or hired one of these:
http://www.emfields-solutions.com/detectors/detekta.asp

Thanks

Richard

Marco

24-07-2017, 17:48

:)

Anthony, as an experienced audio designer yourself, what's your view on if any SMPS, no matter how well designed, can ever be as 'clean' and non-polluting, on a shared mains supply, as a top-quality linear unit?

Marco.

Edward

24-07-2017, 18:29

Yes of course you can ask :D

Actually there are no secret or special parts in it...

An EI core transformer (mine is a 30VA pcb mount split bobbin type, but a C-core would probably be fine) - don't use a toroidal one, the sound is horrible.
Use centre tapped FW rectifiers (2 diodes). The diodes should have low slope resistance. Soft recovery might be a benefit, speed is not critical. The diodes are fine on the board below.
This is a good sounding reg:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ultra-low-Noise-40-V-Adjustable-Voltage-Regulator-Module-1-25-20V-1-5-Amp-/161492352376?hash=item2599b1bd78:g:qA8AAOSwo8hTnqI V
You will need to use the 0V connection to effect the 2-diode rectifier and lift a couple of the on-board diodes' legs.

The LT3042 board on ebay is also supposed to be good. I haven't tried it. I did try an mravica reg off DIYAudio - not to my taste.

I know I asked but not being an EE what you said sounds incredible - but way way over my head. :lol:

Mind you the 'thing' you linked to looks quite like the 'thing' I have. Am looking for a kind local soul to put it all together for me.

Among the various parts I already have to complete the LPSU are two Paul Hynes regulators one of which is shown below. The only things missing are a couple of heatsinks and a kind person to solder it all together. :cool:

http://imapnet.com/aos/Paul_Hynes_regulator1_600w.jpg

PalsHuffMor

24-07-2017, 18:57

Would a bake off be the most obvious way to draw some conclusions?

Whichever sounds the best is, erm...best?

Does it need to be any more complicated than that?

Starterman

24-07-2017, 19:08

Mind you the 'thing' you linked to looks quite like the 'thing' I have. Am looking for a kind local soul to put it all together for me.

I would happily solder it for you, but I'm in Leeds.

Edward

24-07-2017, 19:33

:-) let's see how things pan out.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk

LC1979

24-07-2017, 20:14

Is there such a thing as a half decent consumer SMPS (non-DIY), somewhere between the cost of an IFI iPower (£50) and a cheap bog standard Chinese wallwart? Something with half decent design and components that doesn't cost the Earth?

I'm thinking of something around 5v 3a for my Pi + DAC, but am not completely convinced on the bang-for-buck of the IFI, and wondered if there were any less costly alternatives? Haven't seen anything so far, but then, i don't really know what I'm searching for, or even if it exists?! :scratch:

montesquieu

24-07-2017, 21:37

The 0.22R resistor Naim uses means the DF is similar to that of the ST100 (and similar PP valve amps).
Most SS amps have much higher DF.

If you are suggesting Radford sounds like Naim then you haven't heard one.

As for the SMPS question I too would be interested to know of any quality SMPS approaches - any view on 'stiffness' / low noise in a SMPS (and where to find one off the shelf that does?)

Starterman

24-07-2017, 21:55

If you are suggesting Radford sounds like Naim then you haven't heard one.

As for the SMPS question I too would be interested to know of any quality SMPS approaches - any view on 'stiffness' / low noise in a SMPS (and where to find one off the shelf that does?)

What does Naim sound like?
Actually I have never owned anything made by Naim (except a rather naff CD of some bloke with an acoustic guitar), however I have experimented witih their circuits at length and there are some interesting ideas lurking in there. IME experience different implementations of the same basic circuit can sound very different indeed.

On the Radford topic. Yes I have heard the STA25 at length. A fine amp!
I have also owned a Beard P100. Pile of junk - sounds more soild state than most ss amps!
My main amp is a KT88 PP amp.

It's not wise to generalise (but it is fun).

Pharos

24-07-2017, 22:05

I bet an AM radio, using the aerial as a proximity 'probe' (not connecting!) would give an idea of the noise SMPSs chuck out.

Bonky

24-07-2017, 22:16

Ah, at last, an answer to my question of objective measurement of this mains injected noise. An interesting idea. Many thanks.
Richard.

Arkless Electronics

24-07-2017, 22:45

You know it's when I read a thread such as the additions today on here that I get the urge to find a new branch of electronics to make a living from....:rolleyes:

Much of what has been said ranges between nonsense and down right impossible!

ALL mains power supplies are switching for a start.... SMPS can be quieter than "linear" ones (which are anything but linear unless discussing only a voltage regulator...) in terms of conducted EMI if suitable input filtration, both common mode and differential mode, is used.

Here's the mains current in the mains lead of a typical "linear" supply (not including magnetising current and obviously not choke input)

http://i.imgur.com/1nNMHie.jpg

Not nice is it.... current going from zero to the narrow peaks every time the rectifier conducts and "switches", topping up the reservoir capacitor.
It is also a big factor in explaining why mains leads can't make a difference. For a start the mains is only even "connected" for those brief spikes!

Linear regulated PSU's are far better than SMPS in terms of noise etc generally but the overall PSRR of the equipment being powered will have far greater influence than whether a linear or SMPS is used. Another factor being overlooked is that a linear voltage regulator can be, and often is, used after a SMPS....

Like virtually every other engineer I prefer linear PSU's, and for lots of reasons, lower EMI being just one of them, but, correctly used good quality SMPS can give just as good results as a linear. I reckon the bad rep of SMPS comes from when poor SMPS are used with equipment with poor PSRR. In which cases replacing the poor SMPS with a decent linear regulated PSU will indeed give a big improvement! We need to be comparing apples with apples here!

The PSU of most power amplifiers is an unregulated linear supply and truly awful but you don't hear of people complaining about that! An oscilloscope tells a sorry tale;) Usually a volt-ish of 100Hz ripple is superimposed on the voltage rails and the voltage will be seen to wander up and down a volt or so as the mains powering it itself does. You can also see the voltage dipping in time with the music due to the poor-ish regulation (lack of "stiffness) of the unregulated supply. So why doesn't it sound awful I hear you ask... Why because the circuit has good PSRR of course!

For this application a good quality SMPS can be expected to be much better than a linear supply! It hasn't seemed to have hurt Chord who famously have always used SMPS in nearly all their kit from their first product onwards!

Arkless Electronics

24-07-2017, 22:56

I bet an AM radio, using the aerial as a proximity 'probe' (not connecting!) would give an idea of the noise SMPSs chuck out.

Spot on. However, this is radiated EMI and it will often not reflect that much on conducted EMI, especially when the SMPS is some distance from the equipment. On decently designed gear there will usually be some filtration where the power enters the equipment as well. I would never use a SMPS actually inside equipment due to the radiated EMI (lots of issues can become conducted EMI if it's in the case as well!). It can be successfully done as Chord and others have shown but it needs very careful design and expensive screening etc.

On another shoot of from the topic, class D amps are in effect SMPS's and have all the same issues of radiating noise, and potentially putting it back on the mains etc as any SMPS does!

Arkless Electronics

24-07-2017, 23:41

And another thing... We're gonna have to get used to SMPS because linear supplies are gradually being legislated out of existence. As of about a year ago try getting a linear wallwart. Other than NOS and AC/AC ones you can't! As green legislation on efficiency etc marches on, linear PSU's are slowly being phased out by the bureaucrats... Hi Fi may well prove to be one of its last bastions.. and diy'ers the last of the few.

Starterman

25-07-2017, 07:47

You know it's when I read a thread such as the additions today on here that I get the urge to find a new branch of electronics to make a living from....:rolleyes:

http://i.imgur.com/1nNMHie.jpg

Not nice is it.... current going from zero to the narrow peaks every time the rectifier conducts and "switches", topping up the reservoir capacitor.
It is also a big factor in explaining why mains leads can't make a difference. For a start the mains is only even "connected" for those brief spikes!

On the 1st point - go ahead, feel free :D

On the second point:
One possible benefit of the linear is that there are only 100 times a second when the PS has the opportunity to generate noise. A typical SMPS is generating noise 1000 times more often. HF conducted and radiated noise is much harder to deal with than lf noise.

Marco

25-07-2017, 08:04

You know it's when I read a thread such as the additions today on here that I get the urge to find a new branch of electronics to make a living from....:rolleyes:

Much of what has been said ranges between nonsense and down right impossible!

Well, no need to act like a grumpy old man - educate us on the 'errors of our ways', but don't necessarily expect us always to agree! :ner:

ALL mains power supplies are switching for a start.... SMPS can be quieter than "linear" ones...

Ah ok, the first bit I didn't know, and the second bit is interesting, however...

Linear regulated PSU's are far better than SMPS in terms of noise etc generally...

So, are you saying that linear PSUs are far better than SMPS, as long as they're regulated, but if they're not, they're crap, and potentially worse than SMPS? Also, in terms of your previous statement, in what circumstances can SMPS be quieter? Is it if the linear PSU in question isn't regulated?

..but the overall PSRR of the equipment being powered will have far greater influence than whether a linear or SMPS is used.

I've noticed this "PSRR" term being mentioned a lot. What does it mean (how is it applied to a circuit), what are its advantages, and what relevance does it have, in terms of the 'linear vs SMPS' argument?

Like virtually every other engineer I prefer linear PSU's, and for lots of reasons, lower EMI being just one of them, but, correctly used good quality SMPS can give just as good results as a linear.

Yes I get that. However, say, you have two PSUs, one a regulated linear and the other SMPS, both of identical quality and technical prowess, wouldn't the former, by virtue of its lower EMI, pollute the mains less being shared by the rest of the system components?

If so, then it makes sense for a quality regulated PSU to be used in all critical hi-fi applications. For me, when all else is equal, the lower noise/interference factor would always make a quality regulated linear PSU worth having in any piece of hi-fi equipment.

I reckon the bad rep of SMPS comes from when poor SMPS are used with equipment with poor PSRR. In which cases replacing the poor SMPS with a decent linear regulated PSU will indeed give a big improvement! We need to be comparing apples with apples here!

Indeed, but that doesn't seem to stop equipment with presumably good PSRR (such as the components in my system, all of which have been built by highly qualified EEs), being similarly affected, as I can clearly hear the sonically deleterious effect of plugging an SMPS-powered component into the same mains distribution block, which always deteriorates the sound - and I'm not imagining it either!

The PSU of most power amplifiers is an unregulated linear supply and truly awful but you don't hear of people complaining about that!

Perhaps because they hadn't thought of it before, thus done anything about it? That might change, however, now that you've mentioned it! ;)

For this application a good quality SMPS can be expected to be much better than a linear supply! It hasn't seemed to have hurt Chord who famously have always used SMPS in nearly all their kit from their first product onwards!

Lol.. Well, maybe that's why I've always found Chord amps to sound rather bland and sterile!

I think given what you've said, I'm more of a mind ever now that, if you really want the best in critical applications, then use a top-notch regulated linear PSU. Anything else is really a compromise :)

Marco.

Marco

25-07-2017, 08:15

And another thing... We're gonna have to get used to SMPS because linear supplies are gradually being legislated out of existence.

That may apply if you buy brand new commercially produced equipment from mainstream manufacturers, but not for those of us who don't... Somehow, I can't see the 'Linear Police' coming to arrest me, if one of my many DIY friends, who builds equipment from home, makes a 'non-compliant' PSU for my hi-fi! :D;)

Marco.

Pharos

25-07-2017, 08:48

A few points.

I have not studied electronics formally since '79 and so SMPSs are a more recent development and I have had no tuition on them.

My impression is that they were developed for economic reasons, the cost of transformers, big capacitors, and a very long time ago even series inductors becoming high, and also making large the size of the PS.

If this is the case then that philosophical stance may also be taken to the extreme and cheap design and components used.

Instinctually I dislike the idea of RF being generated as a by product of any design, unless it is intended, and this is to me very undesirable.

I was concerned about my speakers, using ICEpower suffering as a result of this design, but B&O has a very good reputation.

Marco

25-07-2017, 09:03

My impression is that they were developed for economic reasons, the cost of transformers, big capacitors, and a very long time ago even series inductors becoming high, and also making large the size of the PS.

That's my impression, too: they're a compromise, created for convenience and economic reasons, unfortunately like so many other things in today's cost-first, quality second, society.

I also get the impression that some EEs/audio designers know full well that's the case, but because they also know that they have to comply with regulations and all legal requirements, pertaining to the designing and building of audio equipment, they feel that they have to 'talk up' SMPS and try and deflect attention from its negatives, so as not to lose sales! ;)

Furthermore, for me, the PSRR argument smacks somewhat of 'locking the stable door after the horse has bolted'. Surely it's better not to create a problem (EMI/RF noise generation) in the first place, than trying to address it later in the design of equipment?

I've never been one for applying a bandage, to try and cure a problem - far better not to create the problem in the first place!! :)

Marco.

RothwellAudio

25-07-2017, 09:09

I've noticed this "PSRR" term being mentioned a lot. What does it mean (how is it applied to a circuit), what are its advantages, and what relevance does it have, in terms of the 'linear vs SMPS' argument?
PSRR stands for power supply rejection ratio. It's a measure of how well a circuit shrugs off power supply variations. However, a single figure can be a bit misleading. A circuit could have a very good PSRR at 50Hz but a much less impressive PSRR at 1kHz or 20kHz.

"The PSU of most power amplifiers is an unregulated linear supply and truly awful but you don't hear of people complaining about that!"

Perhaps because they hadn't thought of it before, thus done anything about it? That might change, however, now that you've mentioned it! ;)
People have been doing things about it for a long time. The obvious solution is to use a regulated power supply but it has to be very big and expensive to compete with a simple unregulated supply.
An alternative approach which I have used myself is to split the "output" part of the power amp from the "input" part. The output needs a beefy supply, so leave it with a simple unregulated supply. The input part doesn't draw anywhere near as much current so it's feasible to use a regulated supply for that.
Some designers say that there's no need for any regulation at all because a well designed power amp (with good PSRR) doesn't need it.

Marco

25-07-2017, 09:27

Hi Andrew,

PSRR stands for power supply rejection ratio. It's a measure of how well a circuit shrugs off power supply variations. However, a single figure can be a bit misleading. A circuit could have a very good PSRR at 50Hz but a much less impressive PSRR at 1kHz or 20kHz.

Ah, I see. Thanks for that. I've heard of power supply rejection ratio, but didn't 'clock it' immediately from its abbreviation. Like I said before though, isn't it better/would make more sense, to create less to 'reject' in the first place and give the amplifier an easier time, than the opposite, and it attempting to fight the problem later?

'Source first', and all that!

People have been doing things about it for a long time. The obvious solution is to use a regulated power supply but it has to be very big and expensive to compete with a simple unregulated supply.

Ah, gotcha! However, the "people" I suspect Jez was referring to were consumers, not audio designers. I suspect that the former would've 'complained' more, and perhaps done something about it, if they'd realised it was an issue ;)

For example, now that I know that, I'd focus very heavily on how the PSU has been implemented on any commercially produced amplifier I was considering buying, which is something I wouldn't necessarily have done before.

An alternative approach which I have used myself is to split the "output" part of the power amp from the "input" part. The output needs a beefy supply, so leave it with a simple unregulated supply. The input part doesn't draw anywhere near as much current so it's feasible to use a regulated supply for that.
Some designers say that there's no need for any regulation at all because a well designed power amp (with good PSRR) doesn't need it.

Thanks for the info. All interesting stuff! :cool:

Marco.

RothwellAudio

25-07-2017, 10:40

Like I said before though, isn't it better/would make more sense, to create less to 'reject' in the first place and give the amplifier an easier time, than the opposite, and it attempting to fight the problem later?
'Source first', and all that!
No, that isn't the way I would go about it. As an example, a simple emitter follower needs to have a bias voltage at its base. The classic textbook circuit shows the bias voltage derived from the power supply via a simple two-resistor potential divider. That's fine, but any modulation of the power supply then gets injected into the circuit's input - not a great idea. BTW, that modulation of the power supply can be caused by the circuit itself rather than any external influences. With a bit more thought it's possible to derive a bias voltage that won't be so easily affected by power supply modulations, so why not do it? To me, trying to create a perfect power supply to compensate for the lack of thought when deriving the bias voltage is "attempting to fight the problem later".

Marco

25-07-2017, 10:59

Fair enough, I'm not qualified to argue the technical points. My point however, is very simple: if a problem doesn't exist in the first place, it's a helluva lot easier to 'cure'! ;)

A top-quality regulated linear PSU = the creation of a cleaner noise environment for a hi-fi system than any SMPS, yes? Therefore, why would someone like me, with no lack of funds at his disposal and a 'no compromise' approach to audio, use anything less? :)

Marco.

LC1979

25-07-2017, 11:09

Interesting thread, to the extent that I can follow it!

Can I conclude then that the benefit of a linear supply in audible terms is very likely dependent on the design of the audio equipment it is powering? If so, what kinds of devices are likely to benefit most from a linear or other kind of well designed (ie expensive, presumably?)
PSU?

There is also the issue of noise going back into the mains and having an audible effect. But in a typical household that will have all manner of noise from various SMPSs and other sources of noise, would a single "quiet" supply really make any difference if you couldn't somehow isolate all your hifi from the rest of the mains supply?

Bonky

25-07-2017, 11:17

"I reckon the bad rep of SMPS comes from when poor SMPS are used with equipment with poor PSRR. In which cases replacing the poor SMPS with a decent linear regulated PSU will indeed give a big improvement! We need to be comparing apples with apples here!"

So, I have 3 amps, some wall-wart PSs, some items on a linear PS, the usual house stuff (TVs,'fridges etc). How do I know which item is injecting the most 'noise'? How do I know which amp, if any, has the best PSRR? It's no good saying 'use your ears' as I'm 69 and think the sound I have from my 'best' system is perfectly OK, (but am always willing to try sensible improvements -ie those that have some sort of rational explanation). I'll try the AM radio technique later.

Does this seem better:
Has anyone bought or hired one of these:
http://www.emfields-solutions.com/detectors/detekta.asp

Thanks,

Richard

Starterman

25-07-2017, 11:21

To be honest I'm not sure why we are even debating this. Just read any of the links on this search:
https://www.google.co.uk/#q=using+smps+in+low+noise+applications

They all say the same things, but to keep it simple just read the bit under "Choose Linear Regulators with Low-Noise and High PSRR Characteristics" here:

http://www.mouser.co.uk/applications/broadcast-power-management/

Marco

25-07-2017, 11:29

There is also the issue of noise going back into the mains and having an audible effect. But in a typical household that will have all manner of noise from various SMPSs and other sources of noise, would a single "quiet" supply really make any difference if you couldn't somehow isolate all your hifi from the rest of the mains supply?

In many of my relevant experiences, yes, especially on a source component where, after all, the music originates that eventually emits from your speakers. In that respect, you can't fix something upstream that's broken, further down the chain, once it's too late to fix...

But then I'm of the school of thought that anyone who owns the property that they live in and is *truly* serious about extracting maximum performance from their hi-fi system, should be powering it from a dedicated ring main, thus isolating it (as far possible) from the noise created by all of one's household appliances.

Anything less, and you're simply 'playing at it'! ;)

Marco.

Marco

25-07-2017, 11:41

So, I have 3 amps, some wall-wart PSs, some items on a linear PS, the usual house stuff (TVs,'fridges etc). How do I know which item is injecting the most 'noise'?

Best to keep things simple, Richard, so assume that any SMPS that isn't supplied with high-quality audio equipment is shit, so keep the components in your system well away from it/them.

A good way of doing that (although not as good as having a dedicated ring main) is only to have the main components for your system plugged into the distribution block powering your system, and the rest of your stuff plugged into separate wall sockets elsewhere (or vice versa depending on your room and set up).

Never, for example, have a SKY box or mobile phone charger plugged into the same distribution block as a phono stage, or anything that's similarly sensitive to interference. That's why many folks use two separate mains blocks: one for 'clean' components, and one for the 'dirty' stuff - and never the two shall meet... ;)

Honestly, if you try that one simple thing (which is essentially free), you should hear a significant improvement in the sound of your system. It's just basic 'good housekeeping' :)

Marco.

anthonyTD

25-07-2017, 11:47

You just cant get away from the fact that due to the way SMPS work, they generate quite a lot of noise, and its noise that is very difficult to control' and deal with in a satisfactory manner, on the other hand, equipment being run from such supplies needent sound bad, but its the affect this equipment has on anything else around it that needs to be taken into account, this is the main reason I will not use any SMPs in my Audio system.
A...

Marco

25-07-2017, 11:53

Ditto (on all counts)! :)

Marco.

Bonky

25-07-2017, 12:18

Best to keep things simple, Richard, so assume that any SMPS that isn't supplied with high-quality audio equipment is shit, so keep the components in your system well away from it/them.

A good way of doing that (although not as good as having a dedicated ring main) is only to have the main components for your system plugged into the distribution block powering your system, and the rest of your stuff plugged into separate wall sockets elsewhere (or vice versa depending on your room and set up).

Never, for example, have a SKY box or mobile phone charger plugged into the same distribution block as a phono stage, or anything that's similarly sensitive to interference. That's why many folks use two separate mains blocks: one for 'clean' components, and one for the 'dirty' stuff - and never the two shall meet... ;)

Honestly, if you try that one simple thing (which is essentially free), you should hear a significant improvement in the sound of your system. It's just basic 'good housekeeping' :)

Marco.
Thanks Marco; appreciated. I have already followed this - up to a point. All my hi-fi stuff comes off two switch-less sockets. One to the amp, one to a mains conditioner that then feeds everything else. Unfortunately this means, besides all the non-amp hi-fi stuff, a BT router, a NAS and Apple AirPort Extreme with a Hitachi HD (for TimeMachine) and a Mi-Genie Central Heating controller (controlled via an app so needs the router connected. I don't have any other nearby sockets to separately feed these non-hi-fi options.Any advice greatly appreciated, especially as I feel many others may be in the same boat. I hope this explains why I may appear to have a bee in my bonnet about which of these wall-marts are injecting the most noise.
BW
Richard.

LC1979

25-07-2017, 13:10

I don't have any other nearby sockets to separately feed these non-hi-fi options.Any advice greatly appreciated, especially as I feel many others may be in the same boat. I hope this explains why I may appear to have a bee in my bonnet about which of these wall-marts are injecting the most noise.

My situation exactly! Ok, I know it's not exactly HiFi, but I listen from a Pi with a DAC board on top, and a D class amp (TPA3116). My router sits right next to it by necessity as it's also where the BT socket is, so that's three SMPSs right next to the Pi.

I have heard of folk who change over to linear and or something like the IFI ipower units with good results, but that would get more costly than I would want.

Hence I would be very interested in better than standard SMPSs that can be found for less than £50 a piece, or a single unit that could deliver cleaner power to all three, if such a thing exists?!

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 13:19

By and large, mains issues are another myth. Oh and some mains regenerators ARE SMPS!

Marco

25-07-2017, 13:26

Thanks Marco; appreciated. I have already followed this - up to a point. All my hi-fi stuff comes off two switch-less sockets. One to the amp, one to a mains conditioner that then feeds everything else. Unfortunately this means, besides all the non-amp hi-fi stuff, a BT router, a NAS and Apple AirPort Extreme with a Hitachi HD (for TimeMachine) and a Mi-Genie Central Heating controller (controlled via an app so needs the router connected. I don't have any other nearby sockets to separately feed these non-hi-fi options.Any advice greatly appreciated, especially as I feel many others may be in the same boat. I hope this explains why I may appear to have a bee in my bonnet about which of these wall-marts are injecting the most noise.
BW
Richard.

No worries, I'll get back to you about this after lunch! :)

Marco.

Edward

25-07-2017, 14:28

RothwellAudio

25-07-2017, 14:37

:cool:

Is that a pint of Guinness that magically fills itself up again after you've drunk it? If so, where can I get one ? :lol:

Edward

25-07-2017, 14:43

Is that a pint of Guinness that magically fills itself up again after you've drunk it? If so, where can I get one ? :lol:

Far better than pints of Guinness and always free are the great responses to posts on AoS. This is the 198 free glass - so far. :mex:

So Andrew, do you have a view on mains clean up? Or perhaps the subject is to hot? :rolleyes:

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 15:11

Someone mentioned a dedicated ring circuit. :)

Does this really help, given that such a circuit is still affixed to the consumer unit and therefore, presumably, picks up all the shite that is there anyway?

Any anyway what is the difference (audio wise) between a dedicated ring circuit vs a radial circuit or indeed a spur?

I hope I have not set yet another hare running (we are already up to page 20 on my original question). :lol: :cool::lolsign:

Non of the above will make any difference whatsoever.... but I have no doubt 90% of the other answers you get will (wrongly IMO) say it will make a huge improvement. It's yet another area of hi fi where the power of suggestion combined with placebo effect and expectation bias are amplified by the echo chamber of the internet and we get to yet another situation of "yeah everyone knows that's really important and has to be addressed if you are serious about your sound" without there being any basis in fact.
Check out that diagram in a previous post of how mains current is used by equipment... It comes in in the form of sharp spikes at the voltage peaks of the mains waveform when the rectifier conducts. The mains is only (via a step down transformer) connected for between about 1 and 20% of the time (increases with current draw) and only at (or close to) the peaks so it doesn't really matter how distorted the waveform is! Not that adding a spur etc is likely to have any effect on that anyway unless you're running a big arc welding set on your ring main...
A synchronous motor in a TT, if powered directly from the mains, will be effected by mains distortion, hence pure sine wave TT PSU's can help.

Discuss for next 20 pages....:D

Starterman

25-07-2017, 15:23

By and large, mains issues are another myth. Oh and some mains regenerators ARE SMPS!

I agree with the 2nd sentence. It's also worth noting that the battery packs that some like to use have a switching reg on the output.

Funny, isn't it, that the battery pack protagonists seem to be claiming that the battery sorts out the mains problems.

Marco

25-07-2017, 15:34

Non of the above will make any difference whatsoever.... but I have no doubt 90% of the other answers you get will (wrongly IMO) say it will make a huge improvement. It's yet another area of hi fi where the power of suggestion combined with placebo effect and expectation bias... {BLAH, BLAH, BURP, WAFFLE, PHUT, FART}....

:D:D :ner:

Years of experience, from experimenting in that area, in all manner of different contexts and situations, with all types of equipment, tells me something rather different!!

I guess all we can do is relate our respective 'takes' on the matter, for the perusal of the membership, and then let them decide for themselves on what course of action to take..... ;)

Marco.

Starterman

25-07-2017, 15:37

Check out that diagram in a previous post of how mains current is used by equipment... It comes in in the form of sharp spikes at the voltage peaks of the mains waveform when the rectifier conducts. The mains is only (via a step down transformer) connected for between about 1 and 20% of the time (increases with current draw) and only at (or close to) the peaks so it doesn't really matter how distorted the waveform is!

Check out any of the links I posted earlier. Those "sharp spikes" are actually very blunt compared to what goes on in a switching converter.
The clue is in the "switching" bit.

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 15:44

Check out any of the links I posted earlier. Those "sharp spikes" are actually very blunt compared to what goes on in a switching converter.
The clue is in the "switching" bit.

Gee you don't say?:D

Barry

25-07-2017, 15:45

I have a dedicate ring of 16 sockets for my system. Whilst I was having the room decorated I took the opportunity to have some extra sockets fitted. When the sparky came to do it, he said that owing to the way the original ring was wired, it could not be extended or enlarged, so a separate ring would have to be installed with its own RCB and mains switch breaker. This ring thus lays outside of, and is separate to, the original ring and consumer unit.

Whilst I am happy with the new arrangement (it means no trailing mains leads, so is much neater), I cannot say in all honesty it has made any difference to the sound quality of my system, nor would I expect it to. But it gives me peace of mind, and it allows my monoblock poweramps to be located directly behind each (electrostatic) speaker, which need two sockets each.

Whilst the floorboards were up to fit the new ring, I ran in sets of balanced line interconnects from my preamp to the power amps, again removing any untidy trailing cables.

Radford Revival

25-07-2017, 16:09

This is all amateur level, just wait until I try running a valve amp's HT directly from our solar array, conveniently around the right voltage ;)

Barry

25-07-2017, 16:11

This is all amateur level, just wait until I try running a valve amp's HT directly from our solar array, conveniently around the right voltage ;)

Hope the sun shines for you.

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 16:13

Here's an analogy which I hope will make things easier to understand for the non technical... and which I reckon shows very clearly why 90% of mains stuff is a myth..

Here's a water analogy which holds pretty good. Imagine the voltage from a basic unregulated PSU is the water level in a tank and that there is a ball-cock controling the level. We could call this tank a reservoir even, hence the term "reservoir capacitor" sometimes being used instead of smoothing capacitor... The term "smoothing capacitor" also being very apt!

As the equipment being powered draws current the water level drops. This causes the ball-cock to open a bit and let more water in from the mains. Now the "water" from the mains does not come in a steady flow! Oh no indeedy! The 50Hz AC is converted into pulses of 100Hz DC by the rectifier and when the mains tops up the reservoir it does it in the form of metaphorically throwing separate buckets in from a height, 100 times a second... turning the main stop-cock on and off 100 times a second would be an equally good analogy.

If we could look carefully at the water level and plot it against time on a graph we would see it repetitively rising up pretty suddenly then falling much more slowly as the load draws current, only to be topped up suddenly again etc etc. (imagine the waters 10' deep representing 10V and the level goes up and down an inch or so). Now this ripple in the level is the ripple voltage (yes that's what it's called. Thats not an analogy but you can see why the water analogy is often used!) we see across the output of an unregulated PSU on a 'scope! The bigger the tank = the greater the size of the smoothing capacitor and hence the less ripple (it's smoother). Obviously without the smoothing capacitor our DC voltage would turn on and off 100 times a second!

If the analogy has been understood then it shouldn't take much imagination to see that as the incoming mains enters in the form of "buckets thrown from a height" then it matters zilch how the buckets are thrown, from what precise height, with how much care etc etc.. so long as that reservoir is kept filled.

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 16:16

Hope the sun shines for you.

Careful it doesn't end up sounding a bit bright :)

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 16:22

Talking of valve amps... it can be very instructive to look at above mentioned ripple voltage on the HT to the output stage of many valve amps! I've seen as much as 20V+ before! PSRR again;) In the form of the output transformer being fed HT at the centre tap and "outphasing" the ripple voltage in the secondary.

Marco

25-07-2017, 16:47

Yomanze

25-07-2017, 17:08

Marco

25-07-2017, 17:14

Indeed, Neil, and I *totally accept* that expectation bias is a real phenomenon, thus a valid issue.......... SOMETIMES, and so you always have to consider it.

Just not ALL THE TIME, since 1996, when I installed my first dedicated spur (and earth) for my hi-fi system in Glasgow, and started experimenting quite seriously in many other areas relating to how hi-fi systems react (sonically) to receiving power from the mains supply. I've made mistakes, as is only natural, but I haven't spent 21 years continually being a victim of expectation bias.

Have you any idea how many times I've heard improvements and non-improvements during that time, in different rooms and systems, and how much practical experience I've gained experimenting with the mains during all those years, with all manner of equipment?

Trust me, this stuff I *know* about - and know about it well, as it's 'my thang'! ;)

Marco.

Macca

25-07-2017, 17:24

With a lot of things in hi-fi, the change in the sound we hear is real, not imagined; it's just the reason the sound has changed is not the reason we think.

Like Marco I trust my ears. That's because my ears have told me something is wrong even when I had no cause to think that and had not (to my knowledge) changed anything. The degradation in the sound being very subtle and apparent only occasionally, to the extent that I could easily decide I was imagining it.

Then, on investigation, purely to prove to myself that it is my imagination, it turns out something actually is wrong. That has happened to me more than once.

So I'd rather see deeper consideration by engineers of changes that are 'impossible' with regard to textbook electronics. Dismissing it all as imagination does not move us forward. Like I say, the reason claimed for the change may be impossible, but there could be another reason for it we have not considered.

Edward

25-07-2017, 17:24

...and yet, despite all that, if when you listen, your ears tell you differently, then the above (to us "non technical") matters not a jot! :ner:;)

Marco [in tune with his God-given senses, more than his man-made science books].

Perhaps what we are evidencing in the audio world is similar to how Newtonian Physics was just fine to explain most stuff in the universe but started to break down when speeds approaching the speed of light was analysed requiring Albert to come along to explain things.

So do we have an Audio Albert on board to help? :)

Marco

25-07-2017, 17:27

Lol, indeed... And didn't we once all vehemently believe that the earth was flat, until proved differently? Long live the 'heretics', I say! :eyebrows:

Marco [forever a free-thinker, and a believer that 'the laws of physics' doesn't contain all the answers to hi-fi].

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 17:29

...and yet, despite all that, if when you listen, your ears tell you differently, then the above (to us "non technical") matters not a jot! :ner:;)

Marco [in tune with his God-given senses, more than his man-made science books].

Indeed expectation bias, placebo effect etc can be so strong that I'm sure in their own minds many do hear an improvement.

There was some psuedo scientific nonsense going around in Victorian times, I wish I could remember a suitable keyword to even google it, but the jist was that a cynical scientist was amongst the audience at a demonstration of this "thing", which consisted of a small object a few inches big which people were told in a bold and triumphant speech they would see emanating a feint light, only just visible, when in total darkness. Oil lamps etc suitably extinguished, most of those present claimed to see it after a few moments of becoming accustomed to the darkness. As lamps were lit again gasps went round the room when it became obvious there was nothing there! The scientist had managed to sneak the "thing" into his pocket during the commotion of extinguishing all the lamps etc and without being seen....

Never underestimate the power of suggestion and expectation bias ;)

Macca

25-07-2017, 17:29

Lol, indeed... And didn't we once all vehemently believe that the earth was flat, until proved differently? ].

No, that's actually a myth.

Marco

25-07-2017, 17:41

With a lot of things in hi-fi, the change in the sound we hear is real, not imagined; it's just the reason the sound has changed is not the reason we think.

Yup, but I'd add the word 'perhaps' after 'is', as sometimes it might be!

So I'd rather see deeper consideration by engineers of changes that are 'impossible' with regard to textbook electronics. Dismissing it all as imagination does not move us forward. Like I say, the reason claimed for the change may be impossible, but there could be another reason for it we have not considered.

Hear, hear! The notion that we already know all that there is to know on the subject of how, we as humans, interpret sound produced by hi-fi systems, via our ears and brain, and all fully explained by the contents of 'Johnny's Book of Physics', is at best 'optimistic', and at worst, just a tad blinkered... ;)

Marco.

Marco

25-07-2017, 17:42

No, that's actually a myth.

Don't think so!

Marco.

Marco

25-07-2017, 17:44

Never underestimate the power of suggestion and expectation bias ;)

Aye, especially when you're reading the contents of a science book! It's amazing what you can fool yourself into believing is an 'indisputable fact' :lol:

Marco.

Macca

25-07-2017, 17:51

Don't think so!

Marco.

There are ancient maps that allow for the curvature of the Earth in their projections. The Piri-Reis map for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map which is said to date from the 10th century and was compiled from many earlier maps. Columbus never thought he was going to sale off the edge, not did anyone else back then who had an education, it was just that 99& of people had no education at all and had never been introduced to the concept that the Earth was a spheroid.

Marco

25-07-2017, 18:00

There are ancient maps that allow for the curvature of the Earth in their projections. The Piri-Reis map for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piri_Reis_map which is said to date from the 10th century and was compiled from many earlier maps. Columbus never thought he was going to sale off the edge, not did anyone else back then who had an education, it was just that 99& of people back then had no education at all and had never been introduced to the concept that the Earth was a spheroid.

...and therefore presumed it was flat.

If only 1% of people back then knew differently, then that automatically made what the other 99% believed, the 'accepted truth' - much like today believing that current science has all the answers for hi-fi (or rather what I stated in post 218), which is similarly erroneous ;)

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 18:02

Hmm... 200 years of scientific research by some of the greatest minds in history, plus my own decades of experience in electronics, plus the contents of every book on electronics and physics Versus "what Marco thinks he can hear" :D

We could argue till the cows come home and I'll still be saying you imagine it as the only remaining explanation is that your hi-fi breaks the laws of physics.
To use a popular-in-medicine example of Occam's Razor: If you hear the sound of hooves expect horses. Not Zebras.
:)

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 18:06

Aye, especially when you're reading the contents of a science book! It's amazing what you can fool yourself into believing is an 'indisputable fact' :lol:

Marco.

Are they "fake news"? or just "we don't need experts"?
It's amazing how we invented these computers, put man on the moon and eradicated smallpox really....:lol:

Macca

25-07-2017, 18:08

It isn't just Marco though it is tens of thousands of people at least. What we need is a Project Blue Book for hi-fi. Only not a whitewash, obviously. Investigate the claims properly and look for other answers. Expectation bias isn't the answer in every case, although I agree it will be in some.

Marco

25-07-2017, 18:08

We could argue till the cows come home and I'll still be saying you imagine it as the only remaining explanation is that your hi-fi breaks the laws of physics.

Indeed, and I'd still be telling you that the 'laws of physics' doesn't have ALL the answers to how, we as humans interpret sound, as reproduced via our hi-fi systems, no matter how much your expectation bias/deeply-ingrained objectivist dogma dictates differently! :lol:

...therefore, we may was well simply 'agree to disagree' and go to the pub! :barrel:

Marco.

Marco

25-07-2017, 18:12

It isn't just Marco though it is tens of thousands of people at least.

Precisely - and we're ALL hapless fools, inflicted with wishful thinking! Aye..... Anyway, I have an ice-cool Peroni with my name on it, and some friends out in the garden, so laters folks! :cool:

Marco.

Arkless Electronics

25-07-2017, 18:59

Precisely - and we're ALL hapless fools, inflicted with wishful thinking! Aye..... Anyway, I have an ice-cool Peroni with my name on it, and some friends out in the garden, so laters folks! :cool:

Marco.

Just like the 99% who once believed the earth was flat and considered it accepted wisdom yeah:D In th bizarre world of audiophilia though we've gone from knowing the earth is round to the majority of non technical people going back to believing it flat in the face of all expert opinion to the contrary!

Off to visit a sick mate of mine with a few bottles of ale myself.... You may remember my saying a good mate was going in for a cancer op? Well he broke his ankle a week before the op and went through it with his foot in plaster... whilst recovering, a few weeks later at home, a duodenal ulcer he didn't even know he had burst... rushed back to hospital again... I'm hoping his "luck" doesn't rub off on me!

walpurgis

25-07-2017, 19:03

Cor. I feel sorry for your chum Jez. Hope he's OK soon.

Marco

25-07-2017, 19:47

Yes I remember you mentioning your mate. That's a nightmare. Glad he got through the original op ok and hope it allows him to beat the big 'C'. Sorry to hear of his other problems and hope he recovers fully soon!

Marco.

Bonky

25-07-2017, 19:59

PalsHuffMor

25-07-2017, 21:04

True Marco, but it takes a lot of experience to get expectation bias out of the equation when dealing with things subjectively. Am happy to trust my ears now, but certainly not when I first started out!

That is the gathering of subjective expertise. The more kit you listen to, the more times you listen, the more you experiment with different combinations and tweaks...the more expert you become.

Listening to music...is the one true purpose of hifi. Everything else exists only to serve that purpose. If your belief in electrical theory tells you that two things must sound the same, but your ears tell you they are obviously different, then it is your theory that must be scrutinised, not your ears.

Bonky

25-07-2017, 21:08

That is the gathering of subjective expertise. The more kit you listen to, the more times you listen, the more you experiment with different combinations and tweaks...the more expert you become.

Listening to music...is the one true purpose of hifi. Everything else exists only to serve that purpose. If your belief in electrical theory tells you that two things must sound the same, but your ears tell you they are obviously different, then it is your theory that must be scrutinised, not your ears.

..if it's a blind A/B test then yes, of course, you're right.

R

walpurgis

25-07-2017, 21:11

walpurgis

25-07-2017, 21:14

..if it's a blind A/B test then yes, of course, you're right.

R

What's "a blind A/B test" got to do with the ability to discern differences? And don't suggest 'expectation bias'. I trust my ears and ability to judge how things sound. I suspect many others of us do too.

montesquieu

25-07-2017, 21:16

What does Naim sound like?
Actually I have never owned anything made by Naim (except a rather naff CD of some bloke with an acoustic guitar), however I have experimented witih their circuits at length and there are some interesting ideas lurking in there. IME experience different implementations of the same basic circuit can sound very different indeed.

On the Radford topic. Yes I have heard the STA25 at length. A fine amp!
I have also owned a Beard P100. Pile of junk - sounds more soild state than most ss amps!
My main amp is a KT88 PP amp.

It's not wise to generalise (but it is fun).

I quite like some Naim source component. But (like NVA) I haven't heard a Naim amp I could be in the same room as. But I guess I haven't heard them all so who knows? I'm also a fan of KT88/90/120 push pull amps, for many real world speakers a decent KT88-family amp is where it's at.

Starterman

25-07-2017, 21:17

Applying Jez's logic to himself...
it is not possible to overcome expectation bias (even magnificent-mains-man-Marco cannot do this :D) and Jez's expectation bias convinces him that a circuit powered by an SMPS or by a linear PS must sound the same - therefore that's what he hears.

Starterman

25-07-2017, 21:19

I quite like some Naim source component. But (like NVA) I haven't heard a Naim amp I could be in the same room as. But I guess I haven't heard them all so who knows? I'm also a fan of KT88/90/120 push pull amps, for many real world speakers a decent KT88-family amp is where it's at.

Funny old game eh?
I've heard Naim amps sound very good indeed, but I've never heard a decent Naim CDP or pair of speakers.

PalsHuffMor

25-07-2017, 21:25

walpurgis

25-07-2017, 21:26

Expectation bias is an emotion to which I am not susceptible.

Like others, my expectations are neutral, so I don't get excited about anticipated results. Logical analyisis and comparison of what can be heard and repeated is all that matters

Bonky

25-07-2017, 21:30

What's "a blind A/B test" got to do with the ability to discern differences? And don't suggest 'expectation bias'. I trust my ears and ability to judge how things sound. I suspect many others of us do too.
Sorry, not going into this. We obviously have diametrically-opposed views as to what constitutes meaningful differences in SQ. And yes, placebo/expectation bias ( a'pre-emptive strike' on your behalf I think), has a lot to answer for... (I'm wording this so that it can be interpreted differently by both camps).
I wonder how you think differences in drug efficacy, for example, are meaningfully measured?
Let's not fall out...
R

walpurgis

25-07-2017, 21:41

I wonder how you think differences in drug efficacy, for example, are meaningfully measured?

I reckon somebody who's just smoked a large joint could possibly answer that (if incoherently).

Let's not fall out...

I may put things bluntly sometimes, but stating my case is not an indication that I wish to fall out with anybody.

Carry on and relax! :)

Marco

25-07-2017, 21:53

Jez's expectation bias convinces him that a circuit powered by an SMPS or by a linear PS must sound the same - therefore that's what he hears.

Entirely plausible...

One has to recognise that expectation bias works BOTH ways, so one can 'expect NOT' to hear a difference, and don't (due to being adversely influenced by one's objective belief system), even if perhaps one exists, just the same as one can 'expect TO' hear a difference (due to being adversely influenced by one's subjective belief system), even if perhaps one doesn't.

Therefore, objectivists don't get the sole right to play the expectation bias card, as ANY human being, no matter their belief system, can be fooled! ;)

Marco.

fatmarley

25-07-2017, 22:03

Expectation bias has fooled me In short term listening sessions, but I now I think I'm harder to fool because I know I can be fooled.

What I just said reminds me of this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjmjqlOPd6A

Macca

26-07-2017, 07:29

I wonder how you think differences in drug efficacy, for example, are meaningfully measured?

R

I wonder why people think drug testing is in any way commensurate with the appreciation of recorded sound? Modern Psychology? Pah! They've only just figured out that if people know they are being tested they behave differently.

Starterman

26-07-2017, 07:32

Therefore, objectivists don't get the sole right to play the expectation bias card, as ANY human being, no matter their belief system, can be fooled! ;)

Marco.

It's entirely possible that objectivists suffer more (expectation) bias since they seem to be so rigid in their views. Most objectivists seem to be flexible and open minded in their views.

Can somebody help me understand how I am being affected by expectation bias in the following situation:
I have 3 DIY amps, they all have the same gain, I have the same emotional investment in each, they are all operated within their power envelopes etc. etc.
Whenever I swap between them I hear a difference (short term). Over the long term I tend to gravitate to the same one.
The same happens with the 3 mains cable "hydras" I built. These are identical except for the type of cable used.

How is this expectation bias at work???

Marco

26-07-2017, 07:45

Hi Dave,

Before we go any further, did you mean to put 'subjectivists' here, rather than 'objectivists' (see emboldened text):

It's entirely possible that objectivists suffer more (expectation) bias since they seem to be so rigid in their views. Most objectivists seem to be flexible and open minded in their views.

:)

Marco.

walpurgis

26-07-2017, 08:45

Can somebody help me understand how I am being affected by expectation bias in the following situation:
I have 3 DIY amps, they all have the same gain, I have the same emotional investment in each, they are all operated within their power envelopes etc. etc.
Whenever I swap between them I hear a difference (short term). Over the long term I tend to gravitate to the same one.
The same happens with the 3 mains cable "hydras" I built. These are identical except for the type of cable used.

How is this expectation bias at work???

That is not 'expectation bias' at work. You are merely acclimatising to each change in sound, as we all do when swapping items in the system. If you end up leaning towards one amplifier for instance, it is because you either prefer its sound or it is just better.

I'm often substituting components of my system and need only say, half an hour to 'tune' myself in to the difference. Although I will remain aware of which items give the better sound (in my opinion).

anthonyTD

26-07-2017, 09:17

Here we go again, presuming just because the majority accept what a very small minority tell us, then it must be fact! :doh:
My point is; I have never been to space, I have never witnessed the curvature of the earth, and I have never been to the moon, so I have never taken a picture of the round earth from space, Ohh, by the way, apparently neither has NASA, as they openly admit that all images of the globe earth from space are fake, either painted, or photo-shopped! But does that then mean that I dis-believe one version over the other' purely because I am told to, without reputable fact, my point is, I go on my own perceptions, I trust what I feel, and hear, that does not mean that what I feel and hear' if diffrent to those around me cannot be proven, or otherwise,we just need to be open minded as we once were, science can only progress if we are, by closing our minds to new ideas and theories, we do the human race a great injustice.:(
Just like the 99% who once believed the earth was flat and considered it accepted wisdom yeah:D In th bizarre world of audiophilia though we've gone from knowing the earth is round to the majority of non technical people going back to believing it flat in the face of all expert opinion to the contrary!

struth

26-07-2017, 09:22

Here we go again, presuming just because the majority accept what a very small minority tell us, then it must be fact! :doh:
My point is; I have never been to space, I have never witnessed the curvature of the earth, and I have never been to the moon, so I have never taken a picture of the round earth from space, Ohh, by the way, apparently neither has NASA, as they openly admit that all images of the globe earth from space are fake, either painted, or photo-shopped! But does that then mean that I dis-believe one version over the other' purely because I am told to, without reputable fact, my point is, I go on my own perceptions, I trust what I feel, and hear, that does not mean that what I feel and hear' if diffrent to those around me cannot be proven, or otherwise,we just need to be open minded as we once were, science can only progress if we are, by closing our minds to new ideas and theories, we do the human race a great injustice.:(

actually they have, and it wasn't easy

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/styles/full_width_feature/public/thumbnails/image/187_1003705_americas_dxm.png?itok=NWzaquaC

story here (https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/nasa-captures-epic-earth-image)