View Full Version : Dynamic Range
Listening to a lunchtime concert at my school today, consisting of piano and clarinet, I was struck once again by the dynamic range of real instruments. That clarinet, in a lively assembly hall acoustic, went from whisper quiet to incredibly, shockingly, loud from a distance of about 5m from the player.
It reminds me of the occasions when friends or family berate me for playing my system 'too loud' where my opinion is that it is at just the right volume to emulate a live concert (for classical music, anyway). These are usually people who don't much appreciate music anyway and would prefer to reduce it to background duty - anathema to me.
I am also minded of the Musical Fidelity suggested amplifier ratings in order to achieve realistic levels given a specific speaker sensitivity. I do not believe that my available 350Wpc is in any way excessive for my needs. It may even be insufficient although I have never heard clipping.
I thought it worth a discussion as one of the most important parameters for the realistic reproduction of music.
Hi Martin
I think it is the sheer efficiency of acoustic instruments that gives those dynamics - they have developed over thousands of years by people who had not yet learnt to harness electricity to amplifiy their sound, and so came up with other, arguably more elegant, solutions.
In a well designed concert hall or ampitheatre that efficiency is going to be increased again.
There is a big difference in what is required to reproduce acoustic instruments 'realistically' and what it takes to reproduce a studio 'rock' recording - the latter will be much less demanding.
Martin - I agree wholeheartedly. I've always thought that classical music is much more challenging for hi-fi systems to reproduce well - for a whole raft of reasons, but dynamic range is a good example.
Martin - I agree wholeheartedly. I've always thought that classical music is much more challenging for hi-fi systems to reproduce well - for a whole raft of reasons, but dynamic range is a good example.
Yes I agree dynamics are certainly not the only area of concern. I have always thought that in principle a box 'speaker is best for rock and an electrostatic best for Classical/acoustic but this is an oversimplification of course.
Looking at the amp and speakers you are using and imagining the volume you play at to attempt to get realistic concert hall dynamics I would guess that you don't have any nearby neighbours! How close does your system get to acheiving that goal?
Mike Reed
25-01-2010, 15:06
Hi Martin
I think it is the sheer efficiency of acoustic instruments that gives those dynamics - they have developed over thousands of years ...........
Well, maybe not quite that long; hundreds, possibly. Are there any instruments normally played nowadays which were around, even in a slightly less sophisticated form, say, 500 years ago? Violins weren't, I feel, though crude forms of brass were.
Another aspect to dynamic range, apart from the equipment's capability of reproducing it, is the existence of the original dynamic range on the recording. If it ain't there, you can't recreate it (or can you nowadays, with digital jiggery-pokery?).
Well, maybe not quite that long; hundreds, possibly. Are there any instruments normally played nowadays which were around, even in a slightly less sophisticated form, say, 500 years ago?
Drums.
Looking at the amp and speakers you are using and imagining the volume you play at to attempt to get realistic concert hall dynamics I would guess that you don't have any nearby neighbours! How close does your system get to acheiving that goal?
It's a detached house, thank goodness, and I'm not un-neighbourly in the times that I play it loud.
I would say that my system approaches concert dynamics as well as any that I've heard, that is to say it falls somewhat short. A lot depends on the recording and how well they have utilised the dynamic range of (say) CD without compressing the hell out of it. Some of my SACDs do get close to that shock created by live sound. Still, hearing a live concert is a sobering experience and a good experience by which to measure a system.
Stratmangler
25-01-2010, 15:31
Drums.
Leads to the old joke.......
Q. What do you call someone who likes to hang around with musicians ?
A. A drummer !;)
Chris:)
If you really want to attempt to replicate natural dynamics at home, you need some 1950's jazz recordings ON CD done simply and not fancily remastered, a neutral preamp able to drive long interconnects and a pair of large monitors, preferably active - Tannoy, PMC/Bryston or ATC's larger models would be a UK start anyway. You will then have a maximum volume of 115db at least from ATC 100A's (and around 120db from the full blown PMC and studio ATC models.
With one of the large systems above, you will be well able to truthfully reproduce the sheer attack of a drum kit, the painful rasp of a trumpet and the intensity of a tenor or soprano belting at full pelt (been there, done it and the ex neighbours bear the scars...).
I hesitate to mention vinyl sources or later recordings as compression and filtering got in the way as recording techniques made it easier to compress when recording rather than try another take if the last one went wrong.......
Seriously, this is one of the main reasons why big Tannoy owners so often look so smug.. I know Tannoys have other issues that need addressing, but the sheer SCALE of a biggie speaker can be breathtaking when compared to smaller models that may well be better in some or many aspects.
It's a bit like my first trip as a passenger in a truly powerful car. Instead of a screaming hot-hatch wheel-spinning all over the place to scrabble up to speed quickly, one had an almost "elastic band" kind of pull where not much seemed to be happening until you watched the speedo climb so effortlessly from 70 - 80 - 90 - 100 and easily beyond... I also found good big cars so wonderful at low speed too, an underworked engine ticking over rather than snatching all over the road as some little beastie cars used to do (going back in my mind to a Peugeot 205 GTI 1.9 - a hideous and dangerous [in the wet] little pit-bull terrier with no suspension to speak of).
Dave - I have no lack of scale from my system, I promise you. I also agree that simply recorded jazz can sound stunningly realistic. I do maintain, however, that we are not quite at the point of "well able to truthfully reproduce the sheer attack of a drum kit". No, I don't believe we can quite achieve that yet, and my system does it as well as any system I have ever heard (including big ATCs and Wilson MAXX).
As for the car analogy, I quite agree. I find that my 350bhp of smooth twin-turbo diesel does exactly the elastic band thing in quiet serenity, quite to the surprise of screaming Imprezzas and the like. I love it :)
This has stunning, exceptionnal dynamics (hybrid SACD) :
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51drfA9snbL._SL500_AA240_.jpg
Thank you Dimitri. I like the BIS label very much, they make some very fine recordings. I have found a used set on Amazon so have placed an order.
Martin, have you ever heard the ATC 200A's or, heaven forbid (:eek:) the 300A's? The PMC BB15's have BASS EXTENSION to shake the house too, as well as two huge bass units. The studio soffit mount Tannoys have two 15" bass units as well.
Don't get me wrong, it's not just about loudness, it's about the "leading edges" at full throttle and the size of room the speakers are playing in. Smaller speakers would need around one and a half KW per channel at least and even then, they wouldn't have the volume..
Steve Toy
26-01-2010, 02:07
It reminds me of the occasions when friends or family berate me for playing my system 'too loud' where my opinion is that it is at just the right volume to emulate a live concert (for classical music, anyway). These are usually people who don't much appreciate music anyway and would prefer to reduce it to background duty - anathema to me.
You are indeed a member of AOS who embraces our ethos in full. :)
I'm not certain that we need 500+ Watts to do dynamic range though as such notions are relative to the noise floor and resolution on offer.
My parents came round tonight, both are pushing 70 years old, both stated before hearing the system that they thought they were too old and their hearing was too shot too appreciate what my system could do with music. Both were nevertheless blown away by what my system could do with detail retrieval and dynamics and with music familar to both of them. I played one track - all 11 minutes of it - Long Road to Eden by the Eagles and they listened attentively, with feet tapping, from start to finish.
Oh, and Tony (Mr C) you can clearly hear that gate behind the guitar pick-up on the opening electric guitar solo...
My valve amp pushes out 28 wpc max. Dynamic range is a relative thing - it's a contrast between loud and soft. It's not about ultimate headroom, although this is still sufficient to upset my neighbours without clipping if I really want to and I live in a detached house.
Valves seem louder and are definitely more dynamic when implemented properly because they just rise to the occasion so much quicker than solid state amps so you hear more inflections, nuances and much bigger dynamic swings. The whole thing just sounds so much more life-like than anything solid state to my ears and experience.
The last time my Dad heard my system it was with a Spectral pre and a Densen power amp back in early 2008 - no slouch in terms of dynamics that can push out 240 wpc into a 4 ohm load. Here we've dropped to 28 Watts and yet the music has far more life and realism. Bass drive hasn't suffered either. In fact it is more textured, tuneful and articulate as well as offering all the slam and leading edge attack you could possibly need. OK, it won't do the full dynamic range of someone playing the drums in a bedroom as I've heard and that was pretty ear-splitting, but it gets as close in my view is really possible with hi-fi without compromising the rest of the music.
Dave - I've not heard the ATC 200A but I have heard the 100. I can't say that ATC speakers have ever moved me much, though.
Steve - oh I'm well aware of the difference between valve and tranny replay and I was for years a valve advocate. I still have a rebuilt Leak Stereo 20 which I maintain has the best midrange in the world. However, I do now have the most dynamic system I've ever assembled - the big Ushers generate swell like I can't believe and rise to the big crescendos in awesome fashion. In fact, I am not at all displeased with what my system can do (and it passes the 'garage door' test rather well).
I'm not pushing ATC's over anything else, but the 200's and 300's have dynamics the 100A's just can't do..
I listen at low levels and enjoy it because I don't NEED to turn it up any more - it's anti-social anyway and I like my attached neighbour ;)
However, I do now have the most dynamic system I've ever assembled - the big Ushers generate swell like I can't believe and rise to the big crescendos in awesome fashion. In fact, I am not at all displeased with what my system can do (and it passes the 'garage door' test rather well).
I don't doubt it, Martin. I've heard big Ushers before (although not as big as yours) and scale and slam they do to frightening levels, amongst many other things, as they're far from being one trick ponies.
Steve, trust me, Martin's Ushers on the end of your system would absolutely blow your mind ;)
What might be an interesting one, Martin, is to bring the copper amp down for you to hear through the Ushers when I visit, just to see what it does with them compared to the Chord. I've not listened to a rather 'serious' solid-state amp for some time.
OK, it won't do the full dynamic range of someone playing the drums in a bedroom as I've heard and that was pretty ear-splitting, but it gets as close in my view is really possible with hi-fi without compromising the rest of the music.
Steve, you need the likes of Martin's Ushers or big Tannoys to get within a bo' hair of achieving that!
However once the new mains set-up is in place, in terms of the slam and transient attack your system will be capable of reproducing, yer Hecos won't know what's hit 'em! :eyebrows:
Dave, 'neighbours' - what are those? :confused:
Marco.
What might be an interesting one, Martin, is to bring the copper amp down for you to hear through the Ushers when I visit, just to see what it does with them compared to the Chord. I've not listened to a rather 'serious' solid-state amp for some time.
Bring it on, Marco. If you're happy to carry it then we'll hook it up :)
Cool - I'll do that then as I think it would be an interesting one for both of us :cool:
Marco.
I take it the Copper amp is single-ended? We'll just have to make a different interconnect connection from the preamp.
Steve Toy
26-01-2010, 10:36
Martin, you'll have to help him carry the amp. No it's not single ended, it's a push-pull but a very engaging one.
Given its fastidious set-up I'd say yours was probably one of the best on AOS, despite being solid state ;)
Sorry Steve, I meant single-ended as in phono connection rather than balanced. As for topology, I prefer push-pull to the ethereal nature of single-ended triodes.
Steve Toy
26-01-2010, 17:12
Phono output connections yes.
Dave, 'neighbours' - what are those? :confused:
Marco.
HAR HAR!!!!!!!
Even people in adjacent detached homes can have neighbour issues with sound transmission. Sadly, the only Victorian Coach House available to us when we came here was the one we now live in....... :ner:
In any case, most loud "HiFi" systems are often harsh sounding (hence the apparent loudness as our ears recoil from it) - the best setups don't sound "loud" at all until you walk away and can't hear anything out in the street (:D)
Yes, exactly that Dave. A good system doesn't sound loud because it has such low distortion and your brain is programmed to equate distortion with loudness. Sometimes I'm amazed at the SPLs I'm pushing, only realising when I go to another room or outside quite how loudly I'm playing it :)
A warning though - a mate with a full Naim 135 driven 'Brik system complained they didn't go loud enough. The party line was that they were so clean sounding they didn't sound loud. The reality was that the max they could manage before the amps clipped nastily was 108db - about the same as a modern two way with 6.5" bass unit in a 15 to 20 litre box....
Mike Reed
26-01-2010, 18:54
[QUOTE=MartinT;97444
- the big Ushers generate swell like I can't believe and rise to the big crescendos in awesome fashion. [/QUOTE]
Whilst returning a loaned phono stage to the dealer last November, he plonked me down between two large Ushers (had never heard the name before).
I asked why I was sitting in a triangular configuration with the Ushers like gigantic headphones about 4 to 5 feet away. He said it was the best way to hear them, but I wasn't used to 'hot-spot' listening, so it was a bit strange.
However, I was mightily impressed with what I heard, and even more so when I learnt that it was made in the same country as my wife (Taiwan).
With the familiar 'Ten New Songs', by L.Cohen (superb quality CD), I found the Ushers to be articulate and dynamic without obvious colourations.
Not cheap, though (eight grand-ish?)
Not cheap, though (eight grand-ish?)
They were 11 grand, but then in comparison to Wilson Watt/Puppies (which are the nearest equivalents), they were a veritable bargain. Even the Sophia 2 cost considerably more and certainly don't have the scale.
Thank you Dimitri. I like the BIS label very much, they make some very fine recordings. I have found a used set on Amazon so have placed an order.
You'll love it. Don't blow your speakers, beware ! ;)
Hi Martin,
I take it the Copper amp is single-ended? We'll just have to make a different interconnect connection from the preamp.
That won't be necessary, as I'll have the Croft with me, too... Therefore, it'll be Ayre/Chord vs. Croft/TD copper amp, through your Ushers. If we're going to do this; we may as well do it right! ;)
Marco.
jandl100
30-01-2010, 09:47
Hmm ... all this "my system is real loud, bro', you betta believe it" stuff can be fun - but there's a real danger to your hearing, folks - it'd be a shame to have to live out the last part of your lives mostly deaf to music 'cos you f*cked your hearing with all this macho stuff! ;)
but there's a real danger to your hearing, folks
Not really. Dynamic range is about your system being able to handle the peaks without constraint, it isn't about playing loud all the time. System headroom is what we're discussing, which means it goes loud only a little of the time.
The only exception I can think of is playing heavy rock or similar, with no dynamic range to speak of, continually loud.
Not really. Dynamic range is about your system being able to handle the peaks without constraint, it isn't about playing loud all the time. System headroom is what we're discussing, which means it goes loud only a little of the time.
The only exception I can think of is playing heavy rock or similar, with no dynamic range to speak of, continually loud.
Afternoon Martin,
Just for once :) I am going to differ with you, for the most part rock has a great dynamic range equal that almost of the best bombastic pieces from Mahler, Shostakovich, and Rachmaninoff etc.
The record companies on the main are responsible for 'compression' in which dynamic head room is squashed to accommodate the likes of, Radio 1 LOL, I-pods, car stereo's (possibly with the exception of a very few handful of high end car audio systems) and crappy boom boxes in your kids bedroom.
These have no means of truly recreating an orchestra in full flight of quality Rock ending crescendo in which both use pretty much all of the audio spectrum in 'getting across their music message'
Dynamic head room is ability to genuine recreate the 'whole' audio spectrum with the programme being listened to, from a 120 piece orchestra is full flight at 108 db right down to an instantaneous stop, just leaving a piccolo or triangle playing in the far right hand corner, with no loss of cohesive integrity and linearity. It also gives the ability to play very loud without stress, strain or compressing the sound in any way, without this, it then gives you cause to leave the room with blood running from your ears!
It should also demonstrate these traits at low volume level to, it also gives the music the ability to be 'free from the speakers' with agility and fluidity that cause to just sit and listen.
So far I have genuinely only heard 4 speakers that can truly do this, oh and one was a horn loaded driver too!
sastusbulbas
30-01-2010, 12:22
PMC's larger BB5/XBD-A is one of the better systems with regard to percussion reproduction, it is about the only system I would happily drop the £40k on if I had the money and space .
I don't disagree with you, Mr. C, and of course there are always exceptions to every rule. I do indeed have some very dynamic rock music as well as classical and both place great demands on not only the speakers but the whole reproduction chain. Even so, examples from your quote - for instance, 'that' moment in the first movement of Mahler's Symphony No. 2 where all hell comes down on you, or the incredibly bombastic percussion in the opening to Shostakovich's Symphony No. 12, really stretch a system's dynamic abilities if you set the volume so that you can hear the very quiet moments realistically.
It's even more pronounced live, where a concert orchestra's dynamic range far exceeds the average rock concert even though the latter may be much louder.
Interesting you mention volume Martin,
One of our clients is a conductor of note, he does listen extremely loudly,literally 'conducts' between his speakers (near 6 feet away!) around 100+db, as he feels it get him 'reasonable close' to his working conditions.
For the last 12 months or so we have owned a recording studio, so we do have a realistic ability to genuine understand the issue with some credence.
Especially in Stravinsky's 'Right of spring' the Auguries of Spring/dances of the Adolescent girls, does require a touch of control ;-)
A good quailty recording does indeed have a low volume level recording, enabling you to taste the dynamics as the music gets into it's stride and as you wind up the wick.
Some music does need to be sampled at realistic levels, others need a more subtle approach.
Interesting you mention volume Martin,
One of our clients is a conductor of note, he does listen extremely loudly,literally 'conducts' between his speakers (near 6 feet away!) around 100+db, as he feels it get him 'reasonable close' to his working conditions.
Really, if he's self employed then he is being a bit silly, to say the least, and I can't really see an employer (in this case very likely a publicly funded orchestra) subjecting him to that level of noise or indeed allowing him to subject himself to it, H & S legislation being what is.
http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/articles/hearing_art.htm
http://www.admin.ox.ac.uk/safety/0106.shtml
Ralph,
I do understand you views on this.
However it is the only way he feels he can get close to the 'Being at work feeling', as long as I have known the gent he has always listened and immersed himself in this manner.
In fact it is the way he listened to music from the very first time I met him, therefore it is his choice in the way he wishes to listen. In reality he is incredibly particular in how his music should sound. The only way to genuinely make this chap a happy camper is design a neural interface. To connect with the system at a conscious level, allowing him total ‘control’ of the music in actual 'reality' at his whim. So for the last 3 years I've been beavering away in my garden shed with a flux capacitor, iso-linear circuitry, some synaptic transceivers and a small singularity I managed to contain inside a quantum inhibitor (reinforced Maplins ABS project box).
So far its' going great, only another 300 years, a couple run in’s with a some intelligent species plus a sprinkling of mana and I'll be a millionaire Rodney.
Being frank common sense should prevail with how each individual chooses their own 'comfortable' volume levels. Most humans tend to be pretty switched on, though there are the odd one of two!
{Engaging strong Frank Gallagher accent, adopting a over bearing pose with the Verve bitter sweet symphony playing in the back ground}
Not the bearded fisherman sweater wearing liberal tree hugging do gooders with a warped sense of 'doing the right thing' who are tuning the once great country into a cotton wool wrapped nanny state to appease Brussels mandarins, that themselves just ignore their own rules or bend them for their own benefit, leaving good old Blighty to pick up the pieces.
{High horse has now been dismounted}
Mr C
They're not necessarily my views, as far as I am concerned you can make your own way to hell in whatever kind of handcart you can find, it's just that I'm surprised your chap feels the need to listen to music at that level, maybe his hearing is already shot.
I don't get the Brussels bit, H&S legislation has sod all to with the EU but is framed to protect employees in this country from suffering injury resulting from their work. It is sometimes over zealously applied as a result of employers fear of ending up on the losing end of litigation as a result of their negligence. In other words, the dafter stuff we read about in the sensationalist media is more a sign of the increasingly litigious times we live in, you can't blame that on Europe.
(PS, if while you're stumbling around your singularity you should manage to tune your flux capacitor into next weekend, do be sure to make a note of the Lottery numbers and PM me with:lol:).
Thank you Dimitri. I like the BIS label very much, they make some very fine recordings. I have found a used set on Amazon so have placed an order.
So ? This recording ? :)
Sorry Dimitri, I forgot who it was had recommended it. Yes, the recording is very fine (in the end I could not get the whole set, just Symphonies 2 & 7) and the performance of the seventh is superb. Goes to the top of my pile of great Beethoven recordings.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.