View Full Version : XLR balanced interconnects vs RCA/Phono
So now I have a source with XLR outputs ( E sounds CD-5 signature edition) and my amp (Teac Distinction Ai3000) has XLR inputs should I go for it and buy some ? Bearing in mind I've just bought new Mark grant rca's to rca's !!
Is it just marketing bollocks like some say ?
BTW I've no idea what the balanced means anyway!!
Martyn Miles
07-07-2017, 20:11
So now I have a source with XLR outputs ( E sounds CD-5 signature edition) and my amp (Teac Distinction Ai3000) has XLR inputs should I go for it and buy some ? Bearing in mind I've just bought new Mark grant rca's to rca's !!
Is it just marketing bollocks like some say ?
BTW I've no idea what the balanced means anyway!!
Balanced cables are only really relevant in prof. audio on long
microphone cables to avoid rf interference.
Not really relevant with home audio.
Another case of the Manufacturers of home audio kit jumping
on the prof. audio way of doing things to sell their kit...
Yep, go for it. RCA cables have more of a sound signature whereas XLR cables are transparent. I think this is because of a dedicated ground wire, which is impossible with RCA as you need ground and return to be connected.
If your source and amp are balanced, then even better, because you will be making the most of the circuitry and it will only make things better through noise cancellation rather than making things worse.
Balanced cables are only really relevant in prof. audio on long
microphone cables to avoid rf interference.
Not really relevant with home audio.
Another case of the Manufacturers of home audio kit jumping
on the prof. audio way of doing things to sell their kit...
If the kit is fully balanced, then IMO it sounds better when used in balanced mode, regardless of single ended vs. balanced arguments.
Hmmm ?
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Try for yourself, this is all the XLR cable you'd ever need: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Van-Damme-STAR-QUAD-Cable-Neutrik-XLR-to-XLR-Microphone-Lead-Balanced-Cable-PRO-/282215887582 (you'd need to buy 2x, but under £30).
Mark Grant does a Canare XLR cable too albeit more expensive.
Yep, go for it. RCA cables have more of a sound signature whereas XLR cables are transparent. I think this is because of a dedicated ground wire, which is impossible with RCA as you need ground and return to be connected.
If your source and amp are balanced, then even better, because you will be making the most of the circuitry and it will only make things better through noise cancellation rather than making things worse.
Agreed - it's the arrangement I use in my system: CD -> preamp -> monoblock power amps
The advantages of balanced are more hum elimination than RF problems, and in professional setups where frequent plugging and unplugging occur because of different implementations, reliable no hum is a great time and work saver.
Strictly, balanced circuits have about twice the distortion of SE ccts, but nowadays is so low that IMO it can be ignored.
I have had three pairs of ATC actives with balanced I/Ps, fed from SE preamps with no problems, and am currently using my balanced ADAM Gamma actives which are balanced I/Ps with an ATC SCA2 preamp which is also balanced.
All work smoothly and the currents into amps are so small that fine mic. cable is more than adequate, no need for hefty.
The (what I believe to be) best S/S pre available, the Benchmark, is all balanced, incredible spec, and sound.
MikeMusic
08-07-2017, 14:49
Direct comparison from Rega Isis to Pass Labs Pre Amp
RCA-RCA good
XLR-XLR better. Nice step up
Andy ... I have some unused XLR interconnects ... pm me your address if you want them, and I'll stick them in the post ... no charge, as I got them for peanuts.
If the source/amp circuits are designed as balanced then they will usually sound better using balanced interconnects.
If the source/amp circuits are designed as single ended then they will usually sound better using single ended Phono interconnects.
There may be exceptions to these generalisations, but remember its not about the type of leads, as they are equally good over short distances, its about using the right leads for the equipments topology.
Also, just because a unit has XLR sockets does not mean it is a true differential balanced circuit so do a bit of research before spending to much. On the other hand its easy enough to try if you can borrow some leads and settle on what sounds right to you.
I like the robust no nonsense feel to good XLR connectors, but that has nothing to do with how they sound. :)
Spectral Morn
08-07-2017, 19:13
If the kit is fully balanced, then IMO it sounds better when used in balanced mode, regardless of single ended vs. balanced arguments.
+ 1
Spectral Morn
08-07-2017, 19:14
If the source/amp circuits are designed as balanced then they will usually sound better using balanced interconnects.
If the source/amp circuits are designed as single ended then they will usually sound better using single ended Phono interconnects.
There may be exceptions to these generalisations, but remember its not about the type of leads, as they are equally good over short distances, its about using the right leads for the equipments topology.
Also, just because a unit has XLR sockets does not mean it is a true differential balanced circuit so do a bit of research before spending to much. On the other hand its easy enough to try if you can borrow some leads and settle on what sounds right to you.
I like the robust no nonsense feel to good XLR connectors, but that has nothing to do with how they sound. :)
+ 1 With bells on.
I tend to disagree with your second statement Qwin, have never experienced a deterioration caused by feeding single ended source into balanced I/P.
I tend to disagree with your second statement Qwin, have never experienced a deterioration caused by feeding single ended source into balanced I/P.
Not quite what I said.
Edit: Re reading what I wrote it can be misinterpreted, I meant if both source and amp are balanced or if both are single ended, not a mix.
I've always been single ended until I got my big Krell amp. It has both single ended and balanced inputs, but I need some little pins to short pin 2 and 3 together, or some such, in order to use the single ended inputs, and I didn't get any when I got it second hand. But it just seems that if the signal has to run through the balanced jack to use single ended, it's only making the path longer? I've been using microphone cable while I shop for decent XLR cables. I don't really expect a huge improvement by buying nicer cables, but must keep up appearances and all.
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I've always been single ended until I got my big Krell amp. It has both single ended and balanced inputs, but I need some little pins to short pin 2 and 3 together, or some such, in order to use the single ended inputs, and I didn't get any when I got it second hand. But it just seems that if the signal has to run through the balanced jack to use single ended, it's only making the path longer? I've been using microphone cable while I shop for decent XLR cables. I don't really expect a huge improvement by buying nicer cables, but must keep up appearances and all.
The balanced inputs on your Amp will be the shortest path if it is a balanced circuit.
If your source is single ended, there wont be much advantage using the balanced inputs on your Amp.
To connect a single ended device to the balanced input just use a single ended to balanced lead, made up as follows:
Use std balanced cable (2 conductors in a screen).
At the XLR end use std pin out of Hot to pin 2, Cold to pin 3 and Screen (ground) to pin 1.
At the phono plug wire Hot to the centre (+) and Cold plus Screen to the outer (-).
That's it.
Good quality microphone cable is just that, it is one of the toughest tasks for a cable, so if it was designed to perform well at this and over long distances it is more than capable of connecting your hifi. When looking at the "decent XLR cables" check the spec isn't worse than the mic cable.
The DIY Klotz MC5000 interconnects that everyone hear finds so good are made from mic cable, you could do a lot worse than making up a set of leads with this.
I use it throughout my fully balanced system, with the exception of my balanced Turntable leads which need to be a lot thinner in my case. For this I use the Sommer SC-Goblin, which is a miniature mic cable, but still of high quality. See my DIY cables below.
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Cables/Pics/Cable_01.JPG
http://www.jkwynn.co.uk/Cables/Pics/Cable_02.JPG
I thought your previous statement was very clear Quin.
I agree fully with your last post, having used Van Damme and Klotz, and for the 2 pins" you refer to AlphaGT, I use just a length of tinned copper wire. It is a bit od a pain though, as is soldering XLRs, they wriggling all over the place on a table top on the end of flexible rubber coated mic. cable.
I thought your previous statement was very clear Quin.
I agree fully with your last post, having used Van Damme and Klotz, and for the 2 pins" you refer to AlphaGT, I use just a length of tinned copper wire. It is a bit od a pain though, as is soldering XLRs, they wriggling all over the place on a table top on the end of flexible rubber coated mic. cable.
I find the best way to solder XLR's, is to take a male and female and stab them together, it holds the pins steady and the plastic won't melt and let them wonder about. Plus a desk top vise helps to stand them up.
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Simon_LDT
09-07-2017, 10:19
I've used both Phono and XLR on my gear, although heard no difference. Saying that, I'm 99% sure my Arcam gear is not ''fully'' balanced and just converts the single ended jacks to balanced (the pre-amp for sure). In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really makes a real difference if phono cables are kept short and you're not getting any unwanted interference/hum. If the gear is confirmed to be designed as fully balanced though, might as well make use of it.
They can be fiddly buggers, especially the mini XLR's.
I use a retort stand/clamp to hold the pin assembly body and support the cable at the right height/position with those "Helping Hands" crocodile clips on a stand.
I fill the receptacles with solder first, tin the leads then apply heat to the receptacle as I push the lead in. Makes a good joint with the minimum of heat transferred to the insulation on the wires.
It works for me, but everyone finds their own method.
In general terms the worst thing about this work, as with so many other disparate skills we all need these days, is that when done infrequently the task seems at first daunting, as does working on the computer when something has misbehaved after two years of good functioning. I look at the problem and think 'What the f*** was this all about', and as we age time goes faster, and the periods seem longer.
Recently I had to make up new cables for my speakers, using XLRs, and the first attempt was a mess. So the parent in me said; "Get it all out and clean it all up and do it again", which I did. Still not good. But third time very good.
This factor surely is why in jobs we end up doing specialised duties.
I've used both Phono and XLR on my gear, although heard no difference. Saying that, I'm 99% sure my Arcam gear is not ''fully'' balanced and just converts the single ended jacks to balanced (the pre-amp for sure). In the grand scheme of things, I don't think it really makes a real difference if phono cables are kept short and you're not getting any unwanted interference/hum. If the gear is confirmed to be designed as fully balanced though, might as well make use of it.
When I moved to Balanced input on just my Pre I couldn't hear a difference.
When I changed to balanced input on my phono stage as well, it was like I had connected a different stage.
They are both fully balanced devices (circuits) so it may have been because it was all hooked up balanced in/out and overall it made the difference.
When I connected my DacMagic using the balanced out, it made an improvement as well. I since found that it is a balanced circuit and they used additional op amps to combine the balanced elements to create the single ended phono outputs. So the Balanced path has fewer components in it.
Balanced cables are only really relevant in prof. audio on long
microphone cables to avoid rf interference.
Not really relevant with home audio.
Another case of the Manufacturers of home audio kit jumping
on the prof. audio way of doing things to sell their kit...
T'was a time when I would have wholeheartedly agreed with points one and two, Martyn. Recently, however, I purchased a Yamaha A-S2100 to partner the CD-S2100 and was presented with the choice of continuing to use my existing RCA interconnects or of switching to the manufacturer/dealer recommended XLR format.
As a long-standing user of DIY interconnects, and because I enjoy a challenge, I decided to make a pair of balanced XLRs using good quality cable and connectors for testing. Once ready the player was hooked up to the amp using both my preferred, pseudo-balanced configuration, RCA interconnects and the newly made balanced interconnects, using the remote to switch between them whilst playing a wide variety of music recorded in CD and SACD formats. In this set-up, and taking into account differences in level, across all musical genres and disc formats the balanced interconnects proved more open, dynamic and better able to reveal spatial cues and the acoustic ambience. The differences were maintained when different RCA interconnects from my 'collection' were used, suggesting that the cable/connector type was less important than the use of the fully balanced output/input configuration. I have subsequently repeated this experiment using the A-S2100 paired with a Marantz UD7007 and whilst the differences were far less marked, the use of the fully balanced configuration still gave a worthwhile improvement when listening to music recorded in both CD and SACD formats*.
The obvious weakness in my investigations to date, not withstanding my earlier comment, is the use of different cable types for the RCA and balanced interconnects - something I intend to address in the not to distant future when I can afford to purchase some ETI Research or KLE Innovations RCA plugs to terminate the remaining lengths of the Neotech NEI-3004 UPOOC single crystal copper cable used in the construction of the balanced interconnects.
Jon ;)
*For those who are interested, the superior performance (CD/SACD) and quality of construction of the Yamaha CD-S2100 when compared with the Marantz UD7007 amply justifies, IMHO, the additional outlay, although the latter does have the advantage of being compatible with DVD-A and HFPA (Blu-ray).
hifinutt
10-07-2017, 09:21
some kit is better with xlr , some with rca , it all depends . currently although i have xlr capability i mainly use rca and i prefer the sound on my current system .
killie99
10-07-2017, 10:49
To assist in making it a bit easier when soldering cables I bought a plastic project box from Maplin and fitted it with panel mount versions of all the plugs I was ever likely to use - male/female xlr , mini xlr, rca and speaker connectors. I can now plug in any socket or plug and it's held rigidly in place and much easier to solder. A heavy weight inside the box aided the box staying in place on my bench. Job done.
To assist in making it a bit easier when soldering cables I bought a plastic project box from Maplin and fitted it with panel mount versions of all the plugs I was ever likely to use - male/female xlr , mini xlr, rca and speaker connectors. I can now plug in any socket or plug and it's held rigidly in place and much easier to solder. A heavy weight inside the box aided the box staying in place on my bench. Job done.
Good tip Stuart.
I use a table top vice and a lot of bad language!
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