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Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 15:38
I hope there is an expert individual that may be able to answer this question. I've had a search on this forum but there appears to no definitive answer.

A bit of background first, (sorry but a Vinyl freak) but getting into HD downloads and Tidal Streaming.

My kit, comprises of Windows Surface Pro (Windows 10) IFl Micro (USB to Coax Convertor) into a McIntosh CD 500 (Eight ESS Sabre Reference 9008 DACS capable of 24 Bit / 192 kHz in Quad balanced parallel Configuration.

Anyway, my question is quite simple (from a complete numpty perspective).

I have set the IFl USB driver to 24 bit 96kHz to allow for playback of JRiver HD Tracks and Tidal streaming. (when High res files are available)

Obviously, my system is not capable of automatically "Up sampling" or "Down sampling" and I have no way of telling what sampling rate is being played.... as my CD player just says COAX selected.

I think my question is...... should I manually change the bit rate setting to 16 bit / 44.1 kHz for the majority of files available on Tidal??? or the normal files on JRiver?

Or does it really not make any difference? Or does this happen automatically?

There appears to be little on no difference between a 16 bit / 44.1 kHz setting or the higher 24 bit / 96kHz for low resolution files (or not that I can hear) but there is most certainly a difference between the HD files a the Higher resolution. (Much better)

If this is confusing.... I am sorry, but it's also getting to me... for not understanding!!![emoji31]

If there is anybody that can explain, or advise it really would be a real bonus.

Please don't suggest I get another DAC..... I don't have the funds to better the Mcintosh. (As I guess it would be many £1000's)

In anticipation

Peter.


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Stratmangler
29-06-2017, 18:43
Is JRiver set up to use ASIO or WASAPI drivers when playing through the iFi Micro?
It will play files at their native bit depth and sample rate if it is the case.

Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 20:24
Just Checked but I don't quite understand, but JRiver is currently set up to playback using ASIO.

Can you elaborate?

Peter


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Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 20:33
Sorry Chris (Grumpy Git) "As in your profile"

I really meant, set the bit rate as High 24/96 or low 16/44.1????

Or does it work either way?

Peter


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Stratmangler
29-06-2017, 20:49
Just Checked but I don't quite understand, but JRiver is currently set up to playback using ASIO.

Via the iFi Micro?


Can you elaborate?

Peter


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If it's set to do it via Asio using the iFi Micro then it doesn't matter what bit depths and sample rates you set.
Values native to the files themselves come into play. A 24/96000 file will play at 24/96000, and a 16/48000 file will play at 16/48000. CD rips will play at 16/44100.

struth
29-06-2017, 20:55
check jriver for different device options. should be a few

Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 20:55
I thank you for your valued advice [emoji41]

I think this is sorted, via your valuable information.

An expert indeed. [emoji3][emoji3][emoji3][emoji736]

Peter


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Stratmangler
29-06-2017, 21:03
You're welcome :cool:

Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 21:04
Thanks Grant,

I have checked, for options.

I always thought that the DAC took preference (highest bit rate available) but it appears not to be the case??

It's always the dilemma of using two interfaces I.e. JRiver and Tidal. (Never anticipated that Tidal,would ever go, higher resolution!

vinyl is still the best by far.... but must keep up with the latest tech [emoji736]

Thank you.


Peter



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Gazjam
29-06-2017, 21:50
Hi Peter,

Dabbled a bit in this stuff and when it comes to upsampling, despite numbers being bigger dont ever (ever) do it.
(In my opinion)
I've gone through several rethinks on this stuff and always come back to the same conclusion.

Keep it untouched 16/44...want to get closer to vinyl, get a better Dac! :)
Stay away from upsampling, it's Marketing.

As Chris says, a true 24/96 file will sound better but an upampled 16/44 to 24/96 is not the same.
A better mastering of a recording can sound wonderful...I have 320K MP3 recordings of superb masterings of recordings that will give you the shivers they sound that good.

Get the fundamentals right, and dont believe the Hype.
Hires digital CAN sound better, but only if its true 'done at the recording desk' level.

Boyse6748
29-06-2017, 21:56
Thanks for that.... many others have said the very same. !!!!

I haven't the kit to up-sample anyway, just basic good stuff.

Any information is really appreciated from you aficionados.

I thank you [emoji41]

Peter


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WAD62
30-06-2017, 07:38
Thanks for that.... many others have said the very same. !!!!

I haven't the kit to up-sample anyway, just basic good stuff.

Any information is really appreciated from you aficionados.

I thank you [emoji41]

Peter


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I have an iFi nano DSD USB DAC, when one installs the iFi drivers it also installs an iFi app, you'll see it in the win 10 program list (assuming you installed the drivers), under 'iFi (by AMR)'.

This links to the below exe...

"C:\Program Files\iFi\USB_HD_Audio_Driver\iFiHDUSBAudio_cpl.ex e"

...this will show the current sampling rate that your iFi is operating at.

I only use red book, so can't confirm on its accuracy

FYI I use Foobar2000/WASAPI, the sample settings are there for use in 'shared mode', you'll be using your iFi in 'exclusive mode', so WYSIWYG and no resampling...

Boyse6748
30-06-2017, 08:41
Will, thanks for that information.

I think I have now got it sorted thanks to your help. Apparently, it makes no difference if the initial setting is 16 bit / 44.1 kHz or 24 bit / 96 kHz as the file plays at it native bit rate in both JRiver and Tidal.

This is good and bad news as I thought my McIntosh CD500 "onboard" DAC was pretty good but alas, it won't play my real Hi Res files, I.e. DSD files and even 24 bit 192kHz files appear to have a very low level ticking in the background.

I have contacted McIntosh and apparently the ESS Sabre chips in this particular model are specified to be reliable at a top bit rate of 24bit / 96 kHz although they do infer that higher bit rates are possible.

So.... it looks like it's CD / SACD on the McIntosh and look for a good second hand DAC that will play the High res Digital files.[emoji30]

Oh my !!!!! More money.

Thanks again for your valued advice.

Peter


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struth
30-06-2017, 08:59
SMSL do a good range of dsd and variable rate models. i use one with my headphone kit. its a headphone amp too

Boyse6748
30-06-2017, 11:07
Thanks for that Grant, I'll have a look [emoji106]


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Boyse6748
30-06-2017, 17:47
Well.... after much deliberation and Finance consideration and much appreciated advice from this Forum... Struth (Grant) and others. It would be lovely to purchase a true high end DAC for many of thousands of £ to replicate my Vinyl system, but that's not the point as this really is a different format.

So..... I really would have liked the Mytek Brooklyn DAC to the Gustard X20u, if cost was no object. However, that's not the case[emoji33] as I don't have £10k spare cash.

Being realistic and having the opportunity to listen to a friends iFl (On Loan) for a short period. The "iFl micro iDSD Black label" for £550, I'm just knocked out with the perceived quality.

It does just about everything from MP3 to DSD 5 MHz and sounds pretty good to me.... plus it's portable [emoji41] connects to just about anything. Swan Song Burr Brown Twin DAC's and recently upgraded with high quality components.

What more could I ask for, at this price????

I know there are many DAC's out there that would knock this kit into oblivion .... but perhaps happy days ahead.

At least the McIntosh CD500 Transport can now play CD's and SACD discs without me being so critical.

Thank you again for your advice and assistance.

Peter






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Edward
05-07-2017, 20:42
Peter

I've been looking at this thread and glad you seem to have sorted things out.

Nevertheless I would imagine your McIntosh MCD500 will give awesome results even though its digital inputs (both (coax and toslink) is limited to 44.1/16 redbook standard. (as per my reading of the manual).

Even though your IFI iLink can accept up to 192/24 (from USB) there is no point as the McIntosh can't accept such higher resolutions. So simply, within JRiver, go to DSP Studio and set all higher sample rate inputs to output at 44,100 hz. Any downsampling done at this stage by JRiver will be PPP (practically pretty perfect) and then will flow through the iLink with no further up or down sampling to the McIntosh which, as you know, will do a great job in the analogue conversion.

Redbook standard, if converted well, will sound great - the major limiting factor is the original mastering - or heaven forbid the horrible compression applied to many CDs.

But having said all that, if you are still unhappy with your McIntosh I would be very happy to cure you of your unhappiness - just send it to me. :lol: :lolsign:

E

Boyse6748
05-07-2017, 21:03
Edward, thanks for that write up. Sensible and knowledgeable to say the least.

However, me being impetuous and a bit naive (I.e. Thinking that a £5k transport would open up the world, is far from the truth.)

I'm now using the CD500 as a CD/SACD player and all digital music is now via a iFI iDSD black label DAC as it plays just about anything you can throw at it....16 bit 44.1 kHz to DSD. (Just super quality for the money)

I had purchased just too many DSD recordings to waste them. If I had another 5k to spare I would purchase the latest all singing all dancing McIntosh CD..... but alas, that's not possible.

The Sabre DAC,'S in the CD 500 are specified at 24bit / 96kHz, but as I said previously...... not higher. (It made too many high res downloads redundant.

We live and learn but thanks for you advice.

Peter


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Edward
05-07-2017, 21:10
Peter

How are you finding the high rez and DSD tracks? Have you compared to Redbook with same tracks?

Boyse6748
05-07-2017, 21:25
Hi Edward,

It seems a bit crass to say... but some of the High Res and DSD recordings are comparable to analogue vinyl. (Me being a vinyl nut) and by comparison to CD Red Book Recordings .... are another level, but at a cost. Perhaps, I would not repeat, for not all recordings are equal as you must appreciate. Some Fab and Some not so Fab. (it's a bit like 180g vinyl..... not all are as you imagine.)

A lot of money wasted..... but you've got to try [emoji41][emoji41][emoji41] or this would be a very sad world.


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Edward
05-07-2017, 21:43
Yes fully agree - to keep sadness at bay one has to play and try things out. And money is meant to be spent, :)

If you get a chance - you will need a helper on this who can take simple instructions - try line up the same albums (or series of tracks) both at Redbook and a high Rez (say 24/192 or DSD) and get your helper to switch randomly between tracks and rez without you being told which is which. And both of you to take notes - and then compare. Would be interesting what % success you have.

In order to further reduce differences between different mastering simply use high rez files and downsample to Redbook. (in JRiver select tracks > Library Tools > Convert Format).

E

AlfaGTV
24-07-2017, 18:08
Thats a very nice CD/SACD! And i'm convinced it also does a great job as a DA converter. I was a bit confused over it's capabilities thoguh, and in the manual it states that the digital inputs are only for RedBook material, 16bits 44.1khz sampled PCM:

Digital Input
Optical: - 15dbm to -21dbm (PCM1 - CD Format only)
Coaxial: 0.5V p-p/75 ohm (PCM1 - CD Format only)
Sampling Frequencies: 44.1kHz (PCM1)


If you really like to play back DSD in it's native resolution you will need that Black Label DAC (or similar, i also own and like SMSL)
I'm not certain it will outperform downsampled material through the Mac though? :)