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Magna Audio
24-01-2010, 11:15
First posted on the Wam but here also for AOS'ers.

Having been round Mr Coco's a while ago with me pimped SL-1210 and AT 33 PTG see http://www.hifiwigwam.com/view_topic.phpid=48217&forum_id=1

It was time for a re-match again, my having acquired a Ortofon SPU Royal N to put up against the mighty IO.

Firstly Mr Coco had some car troubles - immobiliser gone duff, not allowing the Audi T to run for more than 3 secs at a time...
A quick tow behind my trusty 1.9TDI tow car saw it off a double yellow and onto safe permit parking.

We returned for the evenings hifi and beer - most of which found it's way down our necks:P ;-)

First up the SP-10. Same front end as last time. This time the power amp's were the 308B 35kg in weight each, (£2.5K parts only), mono's that Coco had built for a fellow audiophile.

I am now well familiar with the sound of this front end and the Golds GRF's.

So how did the 308B PP's sound? Well to start with a little polite and restrained to be honest. Not much ummph or get up and go really.
They had not had much burn in time up to this point (yeah - do we believe in that or not?) - well in this case I think we have to, cos the longer we listened to them the more authoritative and in control and darn right lovely they sounded.
Even after several hrs they run cool - much cooler than the SoH KT88 PP I use that could heat a small abode on its own quite easily. Perhaps its surface area - the 308 have a large copper top plate a bit like a beautifully cluttered aircraft carrier deck in size, clutter in the form of lots of nice iron work and tubes all aglow.

So after thoroughly warmed up and probably as much time on them in that evening as they had seen thus far in total things were sounding very fine indeed.

Discs played

- Blues for a Fisherman- by Milcho Leviev recorded at Ronnie Scots
- Tori Amos - Boys for Pele (any redhead who looks that hot holding a hunting rifle is all right with me).
- Heather Nova - Storm (More sensual music hotness).
- The old favourite Armstrong and Ellington - Together. Man that stick and horns sound good.
- A bit of Dylan, acoustic Cash, Jan Johansson (Polska - what else;-) ) and a splash of Nora too.

Ok over the the SL-1210 / SPU.
The Spu gives a very appealing and ever so slightly jazz specialised focus. Man was it born to play jazz!
It just rounds off some the oh so accurateness edges of the IO on the instruments and vocals and make them so compelling and easy/right to listen to.
Th IO has a slightly higher ceiling in some ways - you don't notice that on jazz or close mic'd / acoustic stuff but do on more complex stuff. The Spu has more bass depth we thought.
Pete was saying things like "I will have to get one of these one day", "a 2nd arm perhaps?" :-) etc etc.
You will remember that it was Pete's recommendation that 'forced' me to buy a SPU Royal N in the first place.

So all in all a very good evening and the winner was
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the music.
No, the beer! No the tea! no, def the music!!!

So decks and carts. Its horses for courses really - I am very happy with where my set is right now for the music I listen to it and what I want out of it - it is very very good indeed.

I wonder what the SPU would sound like in that SP-10 with the SME V12 all massed up - it should surely be better right?

Anyway, returning the deck to home and listening earlier this evening I find my GRF speakers slightly cleaner / tigher than Pete's - could be the cab construction playing in (21 / 24mm birch ply, and/or room acoustics. I fancy the SoH is slightly cleaner sounding then the 308 too. Silicon power reg perhaps? Or more running in time needed or Western Elec tubes it will soon get.

Lastly here's a couple of mood shots from Pete's Canon 'arty' lens, this time of the mighty SPU.

http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/45252/2015899870071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2015899870071997495nCGrTH)

http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/27871/2442236580071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2442236580071997495YXsUjh)

Thanks for another great evening Pete.

chris@panteg
24-01-2010, 11:36
Hi Steve

Excellent stuff ' are you thinking of getting the Mike new bearing , i suspect you may forget about an SP10 , or even Dave's bearing if money's tight .

DSJR
24-01-2010, 11:40
What's the arm? Looks like a Rega R200 to me - got it once I read the sig at bottom....

I can tell you straight off that the SPU is WRONG!!!!! The extra bass shouldn't be there and it adds a nice radiogram "tone" to all it carves up as it plays - the records aren't cut that way with all this bass and this ghastly old relic is only made still because far eastern clients with more money than sensibilities still want it 'cos it's old!!! The tracking of many of them is marginal as well. Why do you think ortofon replaced it with the SL15e series - far more charm and an ease I never heard in the SPU.... Ortofon can make a mint on these SPU's and they obviously do :(

Trust me on this, the 33PTG is in a different and far higher plane of reproduction, even if it doesn't add much extra "charm" to what's actually there on the record (and most LP's were cut with no deep bass to prevent granny's old groove-grinder needle jumping and remaining bass is mono'd)

If I had the money, I'd love an SP10 in a decent plinth, although the NAS Dias may well be better for top quality domestic use. never having compared them it's purely a gut feeling on my part....


P.S. if either of you are still reading this (oops), is Mr Coco the chap who had some huge Tannoy Pro Monitors with DC main unit PLUS an extra 15" bass driver in DMT style grey cabs?????

Rare Bird
24-01-2010, 16:42
What's the arm? Looks like a Rega R200 to me



Don't blame him, better than the RB250/300 shite :lol:

DSJR
24-01-2010, 16:58
I own an R200 and love it to bits..

The RB300 was never intended to be a top-flight arm, it's just that it CAN sound so good, but not on a techie, or really an LP12 to be honest. It sounds really excellent on a Spacedeck though and the collet fitting allows easy height adjustment... and that's with standard arm cables..

Magna Audio
24-01-2010, 20:42
What's the arm? Looks like a Rega R200 to me - got it once I read the sig at bottom....

I can tell you straight off that the SPU is WRONG!!!!! The extra bass shouldn't be there and it adds a nice radiogram "tone" to all it carves up as it plays - the records aren't cut that way with all this bass and this ghastly old relic is only made still because far eastern clients with more money than sensibilities still want it 'cos it's old!!! The tracking of many of them is marginal as well. Why do you think ortofon replaced it with the SL15e series - far more charm and an ease I never heard in the SPU.... Ortofon can make a mint on these SPU's and they obviously do :(

Trust me on this, the 33PTG is in a different and far higher plane of reproduction, even if it doesn't add much extra "charm" to what's actually there on the record (and most LP's were cut with no deep bass to prevent granny's old groove-grinder needle jumping and remaining bass is mono'd)

If I had the money, I'd love an SP10 in a decent plinth, although the NAS Dias may well be better for top quality domestic use. never having compared them it's purely a gut feeling on my part....


P.S. if either of you are still reading this (oops), is Mr Coco the chap who had some huge Tannoy Pro Monitors with DC main unit PLUS an extra 15" bass driver in DMT style grey cabs?????

I trust my ears not your blah blah blah;)
The 33 PTG is coarse in its reproduction compared to the SPU Royal N.
No huge Tannoy Pro monitors for Mr Coco..

Magna Audio
24-01-2010, 20:48
Hi Steve

Excellent stuff ' are you thinking of getting the Mike new bearing , i suspect you may forget about an SP10 , or even Dave's bearing if money's tight .

Well maybe...
TBH the thing sounds so good as it is even against a SP-10 / SMEV12 / IO (the expensive electromag one BTW).
I have other more pressing projects like an LCR valve phono stage...

DSJR
24-01-2010, 21:57
I trust my ears not your blah blah blah;)
The 33 PTG is coarse in its reproduction compared to the SPU Royal N.
No huge Tannoy Pro monitors for Mr Coco..

You're wrong sir and I have my hearing experience and memories of real recordings vs the discs made from them as proof, so there :ner:

The 33PTG isn't coarse, it's the SPU over-smoothing the signal and bloating up the bass. Sort your speakers out and then you may agree :lolsign:

Bet you have the TANNOY 3KHz quack with the tweets going off like mad at 9KHz which ALL the HPD's did. I have some pretty response graphs with resonant squiggles of HPD's starting at 9K and going up beyond 20Khz, so bad was the pepperpot by this time and the crossover driving it.............

You'll disagree with me now, but lets see what a few more years of listening will do to your tastes ;)

Magna Audio
24-01-2010, 22:21
You're wrong sir and I have my hearing experience and memories of real recordings vs the discs made from them as proof, so there :ner:

The 33PTG isn't coarse, it's the SPU over-smoothing the signal and bloating up the bass. Sort your speakers out and then you may agree :lolsign:

Bet you have the TANNOY 3KHz quack with the tweets going off like mad at 9KHz which ALL the HPD's did. I have some pretty response graphs with resonant squiggles of HPD's starting at 9K and going up beyond 20Khz, so bad was the pepperpot by this time and the crossover driving it.............

You'll disagree with me now, but lets see what a few more years of listening will do to your tastes ;)

er were were using Golds on the evening...
I'll just put you down as rather rude and misinformed. You'll be telling how I like my food prepared or which car I should drive next - tut tut

Marco
24-01-2010, 22:30
Hi Dave,

No disrespect mate, but I think you're quite off-beam here with regard to Steve's SPU.

I don't have to time to comment fully at the moment, but will return later to add my thoughts :)

Marco.

DSJR
24-01-2010, 22:41
er were were using Golds on the evening...
I'll just put you down as rather rude and misinformed. You'll be telling how I like my food prepared or which car I should drive next - tut tut

Rude? Apologies. Tell you how you like your food prepared and car choice? I'm not an expert in these fields and wouldn't dare to comment.

I DO know the SPU though, so I'll have to disagree with you until you catch up :peace:

Decca's rule - all else is gaslight :lol:

chris@panteg
24-01-2010, 22:57
A Decca vs SPU shoot out is the only way to settle this eh Dave:fence:

DSJR
25-01-2010, 08:18
They're so totally opposite each other you'd need an external reference like the master acetate or summat..

This is the thing about "HiFi" isn't it? So many "shades" of reality to discuss (or argue - oops..)

I love the SP10 though and remember the old IO as a smooth, clear and very refined performer - like a Koetsu with grip and detail :)

Magna Audio
25-01-2010, 22:43
Rude? Apologies. Tell you how you like your food prepared and car choice? I'm not an expert in these fields and wouldn't dare to comment.

I DO know the SPU though, so I'll have to disagree with you until you catch up :peace:

Decca's rule - all else is gaslight :lol:

Again the idiotic put down "until I catch up". Why do you bother?
I am not suddenly going to go back to a Cart I have had and found surpassed by quite a long margin. The jump in performance I found from the AT 33PTG was quite significant.

Stop trying to force your opinions on people and using belittling tactics - It's not welcome!

Decca's may be interesting at some point however as I always keep an open mind.
Based on MY listening experiences & MY music tastes I am not sure I would want to swap the Royal N for the IO (even if I had the cash to spare - yes there are bragging rites to be had but lets put them aside shall we).
I have heard the IO extensively and think it great on some music.

Decca - if you have one you can lend me I'll try it and tell you what I think;)

DSJR
25-01-2010, 22:54
Again the idiotic put down "until I catch up". Why do you bother?


It's not idiotic Steve, I bother because I have over thirty years of trying these things out at various times and have more than a few hours use of an SPU behind me (one mate had one for years which he sold on at massive profit and the other has a brand new one on dem in an FR 64S and feels the same as me). I'm a pragmatist I'm afraid and was able to do some very enlightening comparisons which went far beyond personal preferences on these things :)

Don't worry (I know you won't :)), but Marco told me my amps are total cr@p not that long ago, possibly from hearing a sh*tty D150 with all the voltages out inside :lolsign:

I like Deccas and cartridges with treble energy, as long as the pressings are clean, the stylus is spotless and the speaker crossovers and tweeters aren't messing things up. I don't much care for those with a meaty bass as I feel it wasn't cut there in the first place on most records. My ideal of High Fidelity is more to do with what was going on at the mastering session I suppose as I can't trust my ears since my particular pair are now so fallible. I don't want "clinical analysis" at home either, although you may think I do.

There's also the thorny issue of record wear, something that was pointed at the Decca's at one time. You'd need a very rigid pivoted arm (not the Pioneer one on this occasion), a Unipivot, and your tangential arm may be ideal for this. I'm afraid i'm not lending my MicroScanner out to anyone as I've had one accident with it already and haven't had the chance to use it again since the repair (at least you can get the bloody things rebuilt if necessary and current production is supposed to be better than ever). Much as I love the boogie-factor of the M3D/N21, it mistracks badly on highly cut records with sibilance on them, even with added arm mass.

The rest is better discussed over a pint or three one day :cool:

Cheers

D

Marco
26-01-2010, 00:12
Dave,


Much as I love the boogie-factor of the M3D/N21, it mistracks badly on highly cut records with sibilance on them, even with added arm mass.


Much of the "boogie-factor" you love of the M3D/N21 is present in Steve's Royal N. Not all SPUs are as 'phat' sounding as you're making out, matey!

A lot of what he's writing makes perfect sense and tallies with my own experience - an AT33PTG (although good in its own right) is a frigid sounding toy, musically, in comparison with a Royal N. I can also tell you that much of the 'fruitiness' of older SPUs was down to the detachable bakelite/plastic (depending on era) headshell/body, which is resonant as feck. The only reason Ortofon persist in making them is to satisfy the Japanese penchant for retro!

The 'nuded' Royal N that Steve's using, I assure you categorically, is a completely different ball game and rather more neutral sounding than you think. Have you actually heard one of these, or are you basing your opinion on some crusty old conclusions you formed of the detachable headshell-type SPU, 30 years ago when you once had a full head of hair? :lol: ;)

Marco.

Magna Audio
27-01-2010, 14:01
Good points Marco well made - I don't mind discussions, welcome them.
I do object to the constant I know better than you tone used, and assumptions about Tannoy, Royal N that to me seem totally unfounded.

all ears are different - DSJR might prefer a screechy trebly sound with no bass that I would run a mile from!

As you point out the SPU Royal N is miles away from the old Spherical tipped Spu's of the 50's. It's even advertised as bass light! Yeah right - compared to other SPU's perhaps;)

DSJR
27-01-2010, 16:59
So why isn't Marco using one - and don't tell me he can't afford it...... :lol:

The last SPU I heard was a new one a few months ago, but I DO admit that it's in the SPU shell on a FR64...

Assumptions about Tannoy? Much of what I have ever said has been documented elsewhere. I know Tannoys from the early 70's onwards and *standard* unmodified models have a "sting" in the treble, the pepperpot taking off for various reasons. the HPD speaker range coupled this with a cabinet-lumpy bass too, although taken in isolation with nothing to compare them with, they're huge fun and very much "improvable." Your cabinets remove this flaw and I suspect you've modified the crossovers too, as Tannoy found they had to do in the early eighties to keep them competitive. I'm sure you've heard the current prestige range, which have no treble awkwardness at all and sound delightful at all volumes.

I can't stand a screechy treble! The OC9 is leaner still than the 33PTG by all accounts, but it's very fussy on stylus cleanliness, careful setup and my sample HATES pressings made from worn stampers, an issue with "swept" ellipticals on occasion if the "sweep" is too deep. I wouldn't say my Stilton OC9 is substantially toppier than the Supex SD900e's I have, it just has a little more "presence" which is measurable and preferable on my system, which you may dislike as much as I'd probably like yours..

Apologies of you think me having an "I know better" attitude, but I did spend decades deeply immersed in this industry and often sold these products new, or serviced others used by clients. I also knew a great many of the people behind these products and thought I knew a little about what these products were about, together with the old fashioned "BBC Engineers" who used to call in and who used to attempt to discover *why* people preferred one thing over another when objectively, the opposite was true. Sadly, Tannoy all but disappeared from the UK market except for the cheaper ranges which kept the name alive. It's only in recent years that domestic audio people have re-discovered the old models and Lockwood Majors or GRF cabinets were never "mainstream" as I recall.

Anyway, there we are. I look forward to one day hearing a "naked" SPU and owning a turntable and arm again that would do one justice...


P.S. just reminded myself about the Royal N... "Somewhat reduced bass weight..." Sounds VERY interesting :) :peace:


P.P.S. - http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/SPUsmaller.jpg

Not like yours at all, is it???? Mega OOOPS!!! :respect:

Magna Audio
30-03-2010, 09:32
Just a quick update.

Afte auditioning the same SP-10 at home with both the SMER V 12" arm and my Acos arm with the SPU Royal N on I settled on the SP-10 with the Acos arm. Bought it love!

Sounds amazing.
Here are some pics.

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/6372/2321411380071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2321411380071997495OjwntY)

PL-71 lid even works as off-line cover
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/25366/2778601980071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2778601980071997495AVrlrn)

close up of gun metal arm board / home made arm rest bolted into arm board.
http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/45727/2627562840071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2627562840071997495lJKTac)

Slate is nice - as is the gunmetal arm board I helped to fashion for the SME V 12. covered that hole up with a bit of black fablon - temporary solution.
The Gun metal arm board was quite a bit more lively and detailed over a birch ply one I first made.

I was surprised at home much more drive and accuracy this deck gave me and the option of going 12" later that is more suited to the SPU - Schick, Saec, or 9" Fid Research FR54 are under consideration.

I found the SME V 12 we listened to first lovely to use but just a tad too polite and laid back - Ultimately perhaps more accurate but...

Of course other 12" arms may give a similar laid back result - bit of a mine field.

I sold the SL-1210 within 2 days of getting the SP-10!

chris@panteg
30-03-2010, 10:00
Steve ' that looks stunning ' i do like the SP10 , any chance of a few needle drops:)

Magna Audio
30-03-2010, 11:06
Thanks Chris,
Unfortunately my work laptop does not have a proper line in and I only get very poor qual recordings. My 10yr? old win 98 Dell hardly has the legs for Audacity and i can't see myself lifting this in to the study etc for connecting to the family PC.
I wonder if there is an app to allow USB audio in on my smart phone?:)

I will have a go with the win 98 one again when I get the time - it sometimes works on short tracks.

chris@panteg
30-03-2010, 11:15
I heard Guy's SP10 ' last Saturday ' it has an edge over most other turntables let alone the SL1200 ' an excellent choice ' keep it always and enjoy:)

Magna Audio
30-03-2010, 13:15
Mr Coco moved his SP-10 on to me for the love of a many motored Voyd!
Even then he said there were pros and cons... I've not heard a Voyd but it had better be pretty special!
I will get to hear it when it lands. Circa £4k of TT I understand + will only take a 9" arm so he can't re-use his nearly new SME V 12!

John
30-03-2010, 15:31
The Decca is a great Cartridge I hope to hear the reference in a few weeks time when I next visit Vic
I can confirm with a the terminator the Decca creates magic IMHO

alfie2902
30-03-2010, 16:04
Hi Steve,

Your in a good position to describe how you assess the differences between the SP10 & SL-1210 as you've used both TTs in your system now with the same arm/cart combo.

What mods were done to your SL-1210 & how do both TTs compare in your subjective opinion?

Cheers, alfie.

DSJR
30-03-2010, 16:10
If Steve will speak to me, may I politely ask where the brass counterweight extension (?) came from?

The R200 is ready to be fitted and if I'm to use a better headshell and possibly heavier cartridge I'll need to do something about its counterweight..

Marco
30-03-2010, 18:50
Nice one, Steve - looking good! Keep us posted of developments...

Fancy a (Marco-boy) modded SL-1210/SP10/Voyd bake-off sometime once I've had the new platter and PSU fitted?

Once done, I need to pitch my deck up against a top-notch SP10 and decide myself which way to go permanently - be good to hear your Tannoys, too! :)

Marco.

leo
30-03-2010, 20:20
Just a quick update.

Afte auditioning the same SP-10 at home with both the SMER V 12" arm and my Acos arm with the SPU Royal N on I settled on the SP-10 with the Acos arm. Bought it love!

Sounds amazing.
Here are some pics.

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/6372/2321411380071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2321411380071997495OjwntY)

PL-71 lid even works as off-line cover
http://inlinethumb23.webshots.com/25366/2778601980071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2778601980071997495AVrlrn)

close up of gun metal arm board / home made arm rest bolted into arm board.
http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/45727/2627562840071997495S600x600Q85.jpg (http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2627562840071997495lJKTac)

Slate is nice - as is the gunmetal arm board I helped to fashion for the SME V 12. covered that hole up with a bit of black fablon - temporary solution.
The Gun metal arm board was quite a bit more lively and detailed over a birch ply one I first made.

I was surprised at home much more drive and accuracy this deck gave me and the option of going 12" later that is more suited to the SPU - Schick, Saec, or 9" Fid Research FR54 are under consideration.

I found the SME V 12 we listened to first lovely to use but just a tad too polite and laid back - Ultimately perhaps more accurate but...

Of course other 12" arms may give a similar laid back result - bit of a mine field.

I sold the SL-1210 within 2 days of getting the SP-10!

That looks stunning Steve :eek:

If it sounds as good as it looks I'd be a very happy chappy

Tarzan
30-03-2010, 20:51
Heard a lot of the new platter, can any body give any more info on it?

Magna Audio
09-04-2010, 21:52
To answer questions...

The custom brass counter weight came from brass bar stock turned on my own lathe;)

My SL-1210 had: Focul pod feet, off deck custom wound toroidal transformer and Velleman type PSU. Original transformer removed.

I used the same Acos (Pioneer PL-71) arm on both Techi decks for direct comparison. This arm is not to be confused with a RB200 - apparently it is far better than that but I have not compared them - I have a full OL modded RB250 that is left in the dust (non hifi term) by the Acos...
I also use the PL-71 mat - miles better than Funkfirm mat and quite equal to the 3mm copper mat I borrowed from Coco-san for ages...

Next project is a Thomas Schick 12" tonearm copy.
I have sourced a J bend 295mm pivot to spindle supplier who will bend the tube (not untricky to do right) to correct angle etc for SME headshell.
Getting top quality Abec 9 bearings now. Then it will be turn up the base and pivot yoke for the bearings.
Lift will be a Rega I already have.
I have a good feeling about this project and love the budget so far.

/Steve

Barry
10-04-2010, 19:25
To answer questions...

The custom brass counter weight came from brass bar stock turned on my own lathe;)

My SL-1210 had: Focul pod feet, off deck custom wound toroidal transformer and Velleman type PSU. Original transformer removed.

I used the same Acos (Pioneer PL-71) arm on both Techi decks for direct comparison. This arm is not to be confused with a RB200 - apparently it is far better than that but I have not compared them - I have a full OL modded RB250 that is left in the dust (non hifi term) by the Acos...
I also use the PL-71 mat - miles better than Funkfirm mat and quite equal to the 3mm copper mat I borrowed from Coco-san for ages...

Next project is a Thomas Schick 12" tonearm copy.
I have sourced a J bend 295mm pivot to spindle supplier who will bend the tube (not untricky to do right) to correct angle etc for SME headshell.
Getting top quality Abec 9 bearings now. Then it will be turn up the base and pivot yoke for the bearings.
Lift will be a Rega I already have.
I have a good feeling about this project and love the budget so far.

/Steve

The deck looks lovely as it is - congratulations!

Apropos using ABEC 9 bearings for your next arm, the bearing clearence of an ABEC 9 is so fine that the bearing is unlikely to be robust enough to undergo the longitudinal and torsional force imposed on it by simple handling. This is the reason why SME claim they only use ABEC 7 bearings in their arms.

Amongst the skateboard fraternity, there is a certain 'one upmanship' in fitting the higest ABEC rated ball race bearings they can find. Trouble is that on the very first ground crash, their lovely ABEC 5s are instantly reduced to ABEC 1s!

Regards

Magna Audio
10-04-2010, 21:30
There seem to be lot of bearing myths about - I'd heard SME used Abec9...
Dentists tools are said to use 9's.
Other sources say that the higher the number is no guarantee of a play free bearing.
I will talk to some proper bearing suppliers and find out more...
I will make them cassette like so I can change them for 'upgrades' along the way:)

Barry
10-04-2010, 22:48
There seem to be lot of bearing myths about - I'd heard SME used Abec9...
Dentists tools are said to use 9's.
Other sources say that the higher the number is no guarantee of a play free bearing.
I will talk to some proper bearing suppliers and find out more...
I will make them cassette like so I can change them for 'upgrades' along the way:)

I'm pretty certain SME only use ABEC 7s for the reasons stated; remember that the torsional and sideways forces on the bearings will be exacerbated by the mechanical advantage of the arm geometry. This will be especially true if you hand cue.

The higher the ABEC number, the smaller the manufacturing tolerances.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards

DSJR
11-04-2010, 11:27
Wouldn't pre-loading the races make them better suited? - not a mechanical engineer so may be talking bollix...

Magna Audio
11-04-2010, 17:47
I'm pretty certain SME only use ABEC 7s for the reasons stated; remember that the torsional and sideways forces on the bearings will be exacerbated by the mechanical advantage of the arm geometry. This will be especially true if you hand cue.

The higher the ABEC number, the smaller the manufacturing tolerances.

Let us know how you get on.

Regards

I consider ball bearings we are talking about will be well up to the 'weak' forces involved in a tonearm movement!
They are designed for much more demanding applications - consider the forces involved in drilling and grinding enamel / tooth fillings and that would be lots of lateral force - have you seen the forearms on some dentist:) Perhaps that is more for tooth extraction though.

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 17:56
Another factor is the viscosity of the oil/grease used in the bearing. I have two ABEC 5 bearings here, one with high viscosity oil and the other with barely any but ultra thin oil. You would not believe they had the same ABEC rating!!

Regards

Dave

Barry
11-04-2010, 18:02
I consider ball bearings we are talking about will be well up to the 'weak' forces involved in a tonearm movement!
They are designed for much more demanding applications - consider the forces involved in drilling and grinding enamel / tooth fillings and that would be lots of lateral force - have you seen the forearms on some dentist:) Perhaps that is more for tooth extraction though.

Certainly the lateral loading forces suffered by the bearings of a dentist's drill would be considerably greater than that suffered by the bearings of a tonearm during handling. Unfortunately I can't find where I read the reason why SME only fit bearings to ABEC 7 standard. Perhaps SME were being over cautious?

Regards

Dave Cawley
11-04-2010, 18:16
Maybe to out-do Rega and their ABEC 3 ?

Dave

Magna Audio
12-04-2010, 09:54
Another factor is the viscosity of the oil/grease used in the bearing. I have two ABEC 5 bearings here, one with high viscosity oil and the other with barely any but ultra thin oil. You would not believe they had the same ABEC rating!!

Regards

Dave

Home arm builders have indicated that washing all grease out of these type bearings is the way to go - they have very close tolerances so grease is not needed to damp them and they are not being required to spin at their 50000rpm rating so grease / lube / cooling is not needed and adding stickiness is not desirable.

As said they need to be run in properly. I will haev several sets so can try out the sonic differences of prepp'd variants & go with those I like best.

So much more is possible to try out when DIY'ing vs just buying an arm off the peg - Fun and games.