View Full Version : A most interesting thread elsewhere....
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 11:31
Here's something to chew on and it's NICE.....
http://www.theaudioworks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=353
Naim never objected... because it made no difference... they objected to the improvement.
The old stand wars - Mana versus QS were not about zero differences they were about real differences - of how the musical message was conveyed. Before objectivists began to pollute such threads on other forums it was possible to get off the starting blocks and go beyond the argument of whether stands made any difference and discuss (or rather argue bitterly) the sonic/musical merits of each.
These days the very best stand option for musical performance is the ReVo. It has to be heard to be liked because it is rather aesthetically challenged to many but I guess that sorts out the men from the boys; the former seeking ultimate musical performance, the latter wanting a pretty piece of furniture and not being able to see (or hear) beyond that.
The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2010, 11:35
no linky no worky
Try this one instead, Hamish: http://www.theaudioworks.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=353
:)
Marco.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 12:34
Linky now worky.
The Mana versus QS Ref threads were a virtual bloodbath back in 2001/2002 but both sides of the battle were subjectivists. Marco swapped sides half way through. :laugh:
If anything good came out of these cyber conflicts it was improvements to the respective designs. The original dichotomy was the issue of ferrous metals. The QS Ref protagonists argued that ferrous metals in your rack, your equipment or even anywhere in the room were detrimental to the musical performance in two ways: introducing resonances at critical frequencies and magnetic fields. Everything in the room that was made from ferrous metals had to be removed including all other bits of furniture, the radiators, carpet tacks, curtain poles, nails holding the floorboards down etc etc.
The Mana protagonists argued that the design of the stand was so sorted from an isolation perspective that the ferrous-ness of it was insignificant. Those from the QS camp, including myself argued, having compared both stand options, that the Mana had a deleterious effect on the system's ability to carry a tune; it was more difficult to hear differences of pitch that enable us to hear notes separately.
Mana upped their game not long before the company went bust by bringing out a non-ferrous stainless steel version and this is what Marco uses. Equipment seated upon it does carry a tune rather well and this was a definite improvement. :eyebrows: Quadraspire in conjunction with Music Works made several changes to the design of the Reference tables which brought significant improvements to tunefulness and dynamics and these included the use of acrylic to replace the MDF shelves, the use of unpainted aluminium rods with shorter threaded screw ends (Hamish take note, you've an unused bagful of these...), shorter decoupling rings and a corresponding cut-out around each hole in the shelf, the use of plastic top spikes in place of the metal ones and even acrylic rods with metal screw ends. Each was a step towards eliminating more metal from the design and each, with the exception of the acrylic rods, bringing clearly audible improvements. The culmination of this was the all-acrylic ReVo which was a massive leap in performance but unfortunately meands binnning your old QS Ref stand and starting again. :(
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 12:48
Reading the following statement made by Alan Sircom on the linked thread above:
The forums are a law unto themselves, yes. Many forum heroes wish to see the whole audio business appeal to a lowest common denominator.
I will say this is why AOS is prepared to break a few eggs by imposing certain restrictions in order not to accommodate such 'forum heroes.' I call it necessary pruning :eyebrows:
Steve,
These days the very best stand option for musical performance is the ReVo.
COUGH!! In your opinion, maybe! I have other ideas. Let's not have such absolutist statements on this, please ;)
I'll offer further comments on the thread topic later :)
Marco.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 13:20
Marco, who are you to argue before you've heard one? ;)
Beechwoods
23-01-2010, 13:22
:uhho: :popcorn:
The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2010, 13:47
Linky now worky.
The Mana versus QS Ref threads were a virtual bloodbath back in 2001/2002 but both sides of the battle were subjectivists. Marco swapped sides half way through. :laugh:
If anything good came out of these cyber conflicts it was improvements to the respective designs. The original dichotomy was the issue of ferrous metals. The QS Ref protagonists argued that ferrous metals in your rack, your equipment or even anywhere in the room were detrimental to the musical performance in two ways: introducing resonances at critical frequencies and magnetic fields. Everything in the room that was made from ferrous metals had to be removed including all other bits of furniture, the radiators, carpet tacks, curtain poles, nails holding the floorboards down etc etc.
The Mana protagonists argued that the design of the stand was so sorted from an isolation perspective that the ferrous-ness of it was insignificant. Those from the QS camp, including myself argued, having compared both stand options, that the Mana had a deleterious effect on the system's ability to carry a tune; it was more difficult to hear differences of pitch that enable us to hear notes separately.
Mana upped their game not long before the company went bust by bringing out a non-ferrous stainless steel version and this is what Marco uses. Equipment seated upon it does carry a tune rather well and this was a definite improvement. :eyebrows: Quadraspire in conjunction with Music Works made several changes to the design of the Reference tables which brought significant improvements to tunefulness and dynamics and these included the use of acrylic to replace the MDF shelves, the use of unpainted aluminium rods with shorter threaded screw ends (Hamish take note, you've an unused bagful of these...), shorter decoupling rings and a corresponding cut-out around each hole in the shelf, the use of plastic top spikes in place of the metal ones and even acrylic rods with metal screw ends. Each was a step towards eliminating more metal from the design and each, with the exception of the acrylic rods, bringing clearly audible improvements. The culmination of this was the all-acrylic ReVo which was a massive leap in performance but unfortunately meands binnning your old QS Ref stand and starting again. :(
blah blah blah.... i like the black legs they look nicer ;)
Marco, who are you to argue before you've heard one? ;)
I'm not arguing that you're 'wrong' - simply saying that you're not in a position to state conclusively that: "These days the very best stand option for musical performance is the ReVo", until you've tried all other available alternatives.
Until then, that statement is nothing more than simply your opinion (a 'Toyism', if you will) based on your current experience to date, and not necessarily the actual reality. To state anything other than that is to embrace the absolutist views we firmly oppose on AOS! ;)
Besides, Steve, as I've already told you, I wouldn't give the plastic monstrosity house room (I can handle the stuff Hamish uses, though), let alone pay the ludicrous sums of money being asked for it (even though I would, in terms of its sonic effect, readily acknowledge the ReVo as being one of the best 'high performance' equipment supports on the market).
If I were ever moving from my (largely replica 'cheap-as-chips') non-ferrous stainless steel Mana supports, I'd be looking at designs from Stillpoints.
Have you ever compared Stillpoints to ReVo using equipment you know? I'd love to do that very thing one day at Blade Audio.....
Marco.
Great fun this, innit? :laugh:
;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 14:18
Actually Marco, you do have a point, you still have a point, a Still Point :eek:. A ReVo versus Still Point would be a very interesting comparison indeed. I suspect neither would be better than the other, tbh, just different and to taste in sonic presentation.
I agree that the ReVo is vastly overpriced and I suspect you pay for performance rather than just material and construction cost plus a reasonable profit.
We do need to organise a session at Blade Audio. Dave is reluctant to meet forum owners on his own turf initially though and I understand why. There are too many self-appointed consumer champions out there on other forums who are more than happy to denigrate a hi-fi business in their eager pursuit of reductionism.
We're not like that.
Actually Marco, you do have a point, you still have a point, a still point indeed. A ReVo versus Still Point would be very interesting indeed. I suspect neither would be better than the other, tbh, just different and to taste in sonic presentation.
Indeed - just as would ss Mana and ReVo, or any other high quality purpose-built equipment supports ;)
As you say though, it would certainly be very interesting comparing ReVo to Stillpoints in your system or in mine - it's something that I've definitely 'pencilled in' to do in the future, although I'm in absolutely no hurry to change what I've got :)
I think a couple of ReVo racks, however, are destined chez-toi sooner rather than later!
Marco.
I agree that the ReVo is vastly overpriced and I suspect you pay for performance rather than just material and construction cost plus a reasonable profit.
I'm not sure I understand. By 'vastly overpriced' are you meaning that the performance you get from the ReVo doesn't justify the price?
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 14:37
I think a couple of ReVo racks, however, are destined chez-toi sooner rather than later!
Later rather than sooner given the cost although there was a discount for those who had purchased QS Ref from new. Me, I bought into every incarnation of that from the beginning.
The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2010, 14:39
I'm not sure I understand. By 'vastly overpriced' are you meaning that the performance you get from the ReVo doesn't justify the price?
ReVo 100% acrylic 3 tier equipment table £895 (10mm acrylic) £1250 (15mm acrylic).
lot of money for a few bits of acrylic with holes in?.....
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 14:40
I'm not sure I understand. By 'vastly overpriced' are you meaning that the performance you get from the ReVo doesn't justify the price?
No Joe.
The performance probably does justify the price but the material and assembly costs don't.
Hamish,
Indeed!
No Joe.
The performance probably does justify the price but the material and assembly costs don't.
Then it's not overpriced IMO.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 14:52
I disagree with the principle of loading the price just because the performance is high.
To illustrate this point Mark Grant G1000 HD interconnects cost around £65 but if their price was related to performance rather than just their material and assembly costs plus a reasonable profit margin they would cost around £1000.
No wonder folks argue that cables are foo. The sour grapes are understandable.
I'm relaxed about it, as long as it's not my money. It could be that the price of the ReVo has to be high because so few units will be sold (bit of my 'A' level Economics creeping in there!).
On the Alan Sircom back to basics stuff, i think it's only worth doing on a 'blind test' basis, which is easy enough for cables, but a bit tricky for a big hunk of acrylic stand.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 15:06
Perhaps. I'll probablty end up buying one or even two sooner or later though.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 15:08
I like this last point made by Larry:
Alan
Thanks for that. I absolutely agree that if you find yourself in a place where the foundations are suspect, you at least need to get them checked out.
I probably reacted slightly hastily in my interpretation of what you had in store. I do try to avoid the paranoia that is rife in this industry, sometimes, unfortunately, I succumb.
The very best of luck in your investigations, although I do feel that however honestly you tackle the subject, and no matter what lengths you go to to try and be fair, there will be somebody doubting your integrity somewhere, and saying it in a loud voice.
Larry
lot of money for a few bits of acrylic with holes in?.....
That is precisely why I could not reconcile the expenditure in my mind and justify it, given my sensibilities with regard to solid engineering principles in all things audio (every bit of kit I own conforms to this methodology), for what is basically a lump of glorified plastic with holes cut in it. It's just a pity Larry et al couldn't have come up with a design that achieves the same sonic results, constructed from materials which better justify the cost.
This is where Stillpoints, for me, scores. It doesn't exactly cost 'pocket money', but at least one is getting more realistic material value for money - and its design methodology is also based on what I believe are solid engineering principles. For that reason alone, even if the ReVo were slightly better, sonically, I would still opt for the Stillpoints. I guess it just depends how your mind works :)
Marco.
Most racks are dreadful looking abominations to most people IMO and a grand or so for a few bits of plastic is laughable really.
If your equipment is so sensitive to what it's put on then I'd look at the equipment first as perhaps there are design "difficulties" there. As an example, CB and Olive Naim with hideously ringing cases and a piece of plastic on the rear of the tray to supposedly "damp" this...
I did hear substantial improvements in "musicality" on top range Arcam FMJ CD and amp when placed on a Something Solid rack with suspended shelving -
http://www.noteworthyaudio.co.uk/Something_Solid.html
HiFi dave also stocks their speaker stands, as do Signals and we did very good business with them when I was in Northampton... Arcam have in recent years tried to attend to those bits sensitive to vibration..
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 15:39
Dave, in my experience ALL kit is sensitive to what it sits on, admittedly in varying degrees.
Valve amplifiers are particularly microphonic though.
Shove the preamp in a cabinet as I did and plonk the Quad II's on a thick, butchers' block chopping board that was reduced to a fiver. That'll sort it... :lol: :peace:
Can't afford a fancy rack now anyway, but I do admire the Something Solid models..
Hi Dave,
If your equipment is so sensitive to what it's put on then I'd look at the equipment first as perhaps there are design "difficulties" there.
It's not a matter of equipment being "so sensitive" - it's simply that when an effective, purpose-built, stand succeeds in removing vibration from equipment placed on it, the effect is very noticable regardless of how "sensitive" the equipment used is or not. Of course, depending on their design, results will be more noticeable with some pieces of equipment than others.
However, even my built-like-a-brick-shithouse 20kg Sony CDP sounds markedly different (much worse) when placed on an Ikea table than it does on my Mana supports. And no, I wasn't 'imagining' it ;)
And yes, I've tested this on numerous occasions (with said Ikea coffee table which is also in my room) the last of which was when I had to dismantle the Mana racks and rearrange them to accommodate more equipment.
Your theory makes reasonable sense, old chap, until one actually puts it into practice!
Marco.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 15:59
Dave, you can always do better so it is a good idea to avoid the reductionist trap. Each and every modification to the QS Ref design brought a clearly audible improvement so although the butcher's block chopping board may bring some sonic benefit, I suggest that it won't "sort it."
Like with everything else in hi-fi, idle theory needs to be supported by subjective listening.
Like with everything else in hi-fi, idle theory needs to be supported by subjective listening.
I support subjective theory with idle listening.
Dave, you can always do better so it is a good idea to avoid the reductionist trap. Each and every modification to the QS Ref design brought a clearly audible improvement so although the butcher's block chopping board may bring some sonic benefit, I suggest that it won't "sort it."
Like with everything else in hi-fi, idle theory needs to be supported by subjective listening.
I was joking guv'nor...:)
The "Crofted" Quad IIs remove so much in the music with the Spendors and modern Harbeths that it really doesn't matter what they're placed on - they sound the same. The Crowns are so much clearer (especially with Mark's cables driving them) and the three of them are stacked, so mass-loading *may* just help a tiny bit.. I can pound the top of the (heavy) cabinet with my fist when playing a record (and sharply tap the Dual's plinth with my fingers) and nothing comes through the speakers. The heavy CD player sits on a lightweight Sicomin support and the improvement it gave was about the same as the Clock upgrade I had done (two identical CD players, one modified and one not)...
So you see, I'm not totally anti this stand phenomena, but I should like to conclude by saying that the difference in *most* equipment stands is minuscule when compared to correct setup, use of half decent cabling and tube rolling if you like these glowing things as I do....
Spectral Morn
23-01-2010, 18:26
Because of the logistic issues involved in table swapping I haven't compared many tables with each other, though I have tried many isolation products over the years many of which have been based on bigger tables in the range. Hope that makes sense. Anyway I use RDC Clearlight Audio racks now days, it used to be Target with isolation products (Target racks are an okay foundation, but you need more as they are not that good by themselves).
The RDC cones/isolation stands impressed me that much that I bought 2 tables for my system. Non ferrous in design and with built in RDC compound under the shelves and in the adjustable cones (that level the stand)it offers excellent isolation imho. The tables are less good for TTs imho as there is a degree of sway in them if they are loaded heavily (Clearlight used to make a TT, built into a table top, but I have never seen or heard one).
When these tables first came out they were £500 which at the time was fantastic value for money..however now, at nearly £700 I am not so sure. I have not compared them with anything but they do allow the music to be reproduced naturally. I can however see a situation whereby an overly warm item placed on an RDC table or isolation product might not benefit but become overly laid back.
I love em, they work for me and my current set up...and they are not ugly imho.
In regard to Mana tried it, still own it and it works.
The wastage and cost in the acrylic stands mentioned earlier is huge..acrylics not cheap and imagine the loss in cost terms of cutting holes in your stand...all that now useless material lying on the floor :(. I am with Marco though, on not liking the visuals, though sonically they may well be very good.
Regards D S D L
Hi Dave,
So you see, I'm not totally anti this stand phenomena, but I should like to conclude by saying that the difference in *most* equipment stands is minuscule when compared to correct setup, use of half decent cabling and tube rolling if you like these glowing things as I do....
I partly agree, but would use upgrading caps, or anything major to do with the power supply in an amplifier, in your example above - even upgrading a carbon-type volume pot for a high quality stepped attenuator in a preamp - all of which make considerably more difference than an equipment support will, *but* simply in a different way :)
Therefore I must also add that the fundamental (although slightly more subtle) improvements good supports, in conjunction with excellent equipment can bring to the presentation of music, cannot be replicated by a component upgrade....
HAVE BOTH going on and strive for the best - that's what I do (and what AOS is also all about)! :cool:
Marco.
Ali Tait
23-01-2010, 18:55
Acrylic sheet is cheap on ebay..
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 19:09
Ok Ali, let us know how you get on and can you post some pics of your DIY acrylic stand when it's built.
I bet that Duncan, with access to the materials and equipment he's got, could build a very nice ReVo replica (which would perform almost identically) for, errm, 'a wee bit less' than Larry charges for the 'real McCoy'......
Remember SPPV! ;)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 20:04
So.......you spend several hundreds of quid a pop (& maybe over £1k) on a rack that doesn't vibrate. Your kit doesn't wobble one tiny little bit due to vibrations coming from the floor. You've got your cables nicely dressed & not touching the walls so they don't vibrate your kit.
................what about the airbourne vibrations that you're listening to?
Easy. Just put your system into a hermetically-sealed room, then suck all the air out.
lot of money for a few bits of acrylic with holes in?.....
That hole has a big influence, I remember a mate of mine cut a similar size and shape hole in one of his spare shelves, we tried a cdp sat on the one without the hole, swapped it for the one with hole and played the same track.
The results was rather interesting to say the least:)
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 20:20
Easy. Just put your system into a hermetically-sealed room, then suck all the air out.
Well, I've got to say, my system has never sounded better than it does now, & the sources & preamp are in another room with a 2' thick stone wall between them & the speakers.
Well, I've got to say, my system has never sounded better than it does now, & the sources & preamp are in another room with a 2' thick stone wall between them & the speakers.
You could set up a business selling 2' stone walls as the latest sound treatment system, and spark off debates about whether dry stones walls are better than ones with cement. Then the brick users would pile in saying that stone 'deadens' the sound too much, and what you need is a nice bit of Flemish bond.
That hole has a big influence, I remember a mate of mine cut a similar size and shape hole in one of his spare shelves, we tried a cdp sat on the one without the hole, swapped it for the one with hole and played the same track.
The results was rather interesting to say the least:)
The CDP fell through the hole?
You could set up a business selling 2' stone walls as the latest sound treatment system, and spark off debates about whether dry stones walls are better than ones with cement. Then the brick users would pile in saying that stone 'deadens' the sound too much, and what you need is a nice bit of Flemish bond.
We have Flemish bond, but it's the Suffolk Soft Reds that really make it...;)
Ali Tait
23-01-2010, 20:34
Ok Ali, let us know how you get on and can you post some pics of your DIY acrylic stand when it's built.
I will give it a go sometime,but the direct coupled amp comes first.Could you post some pics,along with an explanation of how it fits together please Steve?
The Denon amps have a Precision Direct Mechanical Ground Construction (TM) to suppress vibrations. No need for special shelves.
:sofa:
The CDP fell through the hole?
:lol:
Not that big of a hole Joe, I'll give you that one though;)
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 21:02
Dimitri, I bet that Denon amp still sounds better on a good support. The effects of good isolation arre not binary. There are degrees of effectiveness and different design principles offer different sonic properties.
Well, Steve, in fact I listen to very low levels and my listening room is on a 40cm thick concrete basis. (I have to touch the subwoofer to feel a vibration. If i touch the ground at 5cm from it there is none left...)
I tried several decouplings in the past, but even under CD players I can't hear any difference. So I gave up.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 22:20
Dimitri, I suspect there may be a bigger bottleneck somewhere else in your system. My system also lives on a concrete floor. Changes to my supports are clearly audible.
Hi Chris,
So.......you spend several hundreds of quid a pop (& maybe over £1k) on a rack that doesn't vibrate. Your kit doesn't wobble one tiny little bit due to vibrations coming from the floor. You've got your cables nicely dressed & not touching the walls so they don't vibrate your kit.
................what about the airbourne vibrations that you're listening to?
Dunno for sure, mate - that's the short answer :)
I believe that Mana and QS Ref racks have been designed to dissipate both structural and airborne vibration through design. How that design functions precisely though has over the years been the subject of much heated debate throughout every forum in the land! ;)
All I know is that to my ears they work - and do so very effectively indeed.
If you're interested in the subject of vibration, the causes and effects with equipment, this is an interesting and informative article:
http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/vibration.html
Marco.
Steve Toy
23-01-2010, 23:05
The airborne vibrations are grounded and transfered to heat through the rack.
Dimitri, I suspect there may be a bigger bottleneck somewhere else in your system. My system also lives on a concrete floor. Changes to my supports are clearly audible.
If there's a bottleneck, it's in my head. Supports don't help, apparently. ;)
The airborne vibrations are grounded and transfered to heat through the rack.
That's also my theory (and Mana works in a similar way), but of course 'proving' it scientifically is another matter entirely.
No matter though, in a revealing system the effects are easily heard subjectively - as anyone who was present in our room at Scalford Hall last year would confirm when the Beresford DAC was lifted off of the floor and placed onto your QS Ref! :)
Hopefully we can do some more demonstrations like that in March.
Marco.
twelvebears
24-01-2010, 00:01
To be completely honest, I've always been a bit apathetic about the difference supports make (though I'm more inclined to buy-in now a turntable is part of the equasion), even thought as an engineer-at-heart I can appreciate the theory.
My opinion (and only that) is that different kit responds in very different ways to what it's sat on. On the one hand, I myself have heard Seismic Sink speaker stands make a massive difference to one pair of speakers and bugger all to another. I certainly wouldn't expect them to do much for my beasts!
I guess my point is that it's almost impossible to make absolute judgments about anything in this particular area and that it's very much a case of 'suck it and see'
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 00:07
We don't need to 'prove' anything scientifically. By joining this forum you subscribe to the notion of trusting your ears.
It would be nice to get beyond the first hurdle of establishing whether supports to make an audible difference to the equipment placed upon them.
Although Alan Sircom is getting back to basics with this issue and by that he means establishing that supports do make a difference, I'm sure he would like to progress quickly beyond this initial stage to the next where different designs of supports can then be evaluated for their effectiveness and individual sonic characteristics.
The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2010, 00:12
The airborne vibrations are grounded and transfered to heat through the rack.
Nope, sorry not a chance.
The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2010, 00:29
You both use valve power amps and Marco has a turntable.
Tell me how the rack (any rack) can short circuit the energy that your speakers are dumping into those exposed valves & that arm & cartridge.
The airborne vibrations are grounded and transfered to heat through the rack.
That statement may be partly true of the energy that hits the rack - but for as much vibration that goes down to the ground, there will be some that goes into the components placed on it.
It may be partly true of the components too, but some of that energy is going into the valves & arm/cartridge.
LOL... Have you got your 'objectivist hat' on today or something? ;)
I'm not really sure where this is going, Chris. We're all capable of coming up with any number of superficially 'logical theories' to try and explain the sonic effect of the racks we use.
At the end of the day though it's all 'froth', as the proof of the pudding is in the listening - that's all that matters. If it (obviously and unquestionably to you) sounds better, then it *is* better - end of.
Are you coming to Scalford Hall in March? If so, hopefully we can demonstrate the effect of good equipment supports there :)
Incidentally, what do you use yourself in that department? I don't recall having discussed this with you before. Just curious!
Marco.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 00:52
Chris they are, not completely but enough to make an audible difference.
How do we know? Because equipment with no moving parts, e.g. A DAC or a preamp will sound different according to what it sits on.
I demonstrated this at Scalford last year with a Beresford DAC that I moved from the top of a cardboard box to an acrylic shelf.
Nick and Alfie were present and clearly heard the difference. Either you are questioning the integrity of all present or this phenomenon has yet to be demonstrated to you.
If you come to Scalford this year I shall do a demonstration.
The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2010, 01:01
Marco,
Hahaha...............racks, what a laugh!
No, I fully understand and concur with the idea of what a good rack ought to do, but it seems like you & Steve swallowed one teeny weeny morsel of sales shtick too much there.
Have you ever got down there & stuck a thermometer against the floor spikes to satisfy yourself that all those nasty vibrations are turning into lovely warm heat? Do you honestly think for a nano-second that the designer of your respective racks did that? Or do you think that he thought that one up over the course of a pub lunch?
Of course the vibrations turn to heat!!!!
That what happens when you rub two things together. The rubbing is called vibration.
I use an HNE granite & beech rack for my TT & CD player. The coned feet of my Michell TT sit in dimpled aluminium discs & the CD player is sat on more downward pointing coned granite.
My pre-amp & tuner are on an old SO rack because my other HNE rack needs new legs. I ought to get Peter at HNE to sort them for me, but I've got a lathe - just never seem to be able to find the time. In the meantime, the SO rack has extra granite under the pre, but not the tuner as that doesn't seem to need it. All that kit is as mentioned above in a seperate room with a 2 foot thick stone wall between it & the speakers.
The power amps sit behind & between the speakers on an old Target TT2 with granite shelves.
The speakers are on Soundcare SuperSpikes.
As I said above, my system has never sounded better since I put the TT & valves in the preamp in that other room.
The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2010, 01:03
Steve,
Either you are questioning the integrity of all present or this phenomenon has yet to be demonstrated to you.
Neither of the above.
I'm saying you've not finished the job yet.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 01:36
I didn't say the rack grounded ALL of the airborne vibration, just SOME of it, enough for there to be an audible benefit. I agree that the job is incomplete.
Putting the electronics on a performance rack in another room to the speakers is probably as good as it gets.
Chris,
Marco,
Hahaha...............racks, what a laugh!
No, I fully understand and concur with the idea of what a good rack ought to do, but it seems like you & Steve swallowed one teeny weeny morsel of sales shtick too much there.
Speaking for myself, no - definitely not - hence why when you asked me this earlier:
So.......you spend several hundreds of quid a pop (& maybe over £1k) on a rack that doesn't vibrate. Your kit doesn't wobble one tiny little bit due to vibrations coming from the floor. You've got your cables nicely dressed & not touching the walls so they don't vibrate your kit.
................what about the airbourne vibrations that you're listening to?
I answered simply:
Dunno for sure, mate - that's the short answer.
Mana works very well for me, and I have my theories on what it does in terms of vibration elimination, but that's as far as the theorising goes. Beyond that I use my ears as the final arbiter, as I do with everything in hi-fi. I've been using Mana for over 8 years now, in various incarnations, so I've got a pretty good handle on its sonic effect!
Apart from anything else, Mana Acoustics as a company, never produced one morcel of "sales shtick" in the duration of its existence (JW never was one for that sort of stuff - you'd be lucky if you got assembly instructions with it, or more likely instead a book of Pagan chants and Wiccan rituals, and a big fat doobie ;)), so I'd have a bloody hard job swallowing the "sales shtick" you're referring to when none existed in the first place! :lol:
Marco.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 01:48
Same with the QS Ref. It was more a case of, "you want to hear this..."
The Grand Wazoo
24-01-2010, 08:26
Ah good, all's well with the world then.
I don't play my stereo loud enough for vibration to ever be a problem.............;)
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 11:56
Hi Steve,
I fancy giving a diy version a go sometime,could you post some pics and an explanation of how it bolts together please?
Hi Steve,
I fancy giving a diy version a go sometime,could you post some pics and an explanation of how it bolts together please?
Yes - so do I.
We are arguing here about how equipment supports work, right? Not whether they work or not. There is no question that properly supporting the kit improves the sound and I cannot believe that there are people out there who claim it is just 'imagination'.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:16
http://www.theaudioworks.co.uk/?p=6
The upright sections are 15mm thick, there are three of them with one in the middle. Note the way the three uprights are held together and the adjustable bars on each level that the kit actually sits on.
The double guitar shape is also important to the effectiveness of the design.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:16
http://www.theaudioworks.co.uk/?p=6
The upright sections are 15mm thick, there are three of them with one in the middle. Note the way the three uprights are held together and the adjustable bars on each level that the kit actually sits on.
The double guitar shape is also important to the effectiveness of the design.
There is no question that properly supporting the kit improves the sound and I cannot believe that there are people out there who claim it is just 'imagination'.
There are people who wonder why the equipment as conceived and commercialized by the designers is not "properly supported" as it is, though. ;)
I can't believe that equipment is "misconceived". So, if it is not, then "properly supporting" the kit is part of all kind of tweaking, like changing capacitors and so on.
And the question that I always ask myself is : what is better ? Tweaking or changing equipment altogether ? ;)
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:23
PS: the pic only shows two upright sections but three is optimal to the overall effectivenes in grounding vibration.
There are people who wonder why the equipment as conceived and commercialized by the designers is not "properly supported" as it is, though. ;)
I can't believe that equipment is "misconceived". So, if it is not, then "properly supporting" the kit is part of all kind of tweaking, like changing capacitors and so on.
And the question that I always ask myself is : what is better ? Tweaking or changing equipment altogether ? ;)
When Pioneer or whoever are testing their new CD player they don't have it sat on a packing crate, do they? They have to assume that the equipment will be properly supported by the end user just as it was in the lab.
Technics used to measure rumble on their early direct drived by suspending the decks on cotton threads from the ceiling. They soon cottoned on that better support from underneath was the better option....
That perspex guitar shaped thing is one of the ugliest racks I've ever seen. Sorry.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:31
Dimitri, read the information on the link about the ReVo. You can go round in circles with changes to kit. Why do you put up such resistance to the notion of adding ancilliaries to the equation? A badly set up high end system will not perform as well as a well setup more modest system.
Note that all seven listeners prefered the £550 CD player on ReVo to the £5000 one on another stand. The difference between those two CD players will also be more obvious if both are placed on the ReVo stand.
It is about releasing the fullest potential of your equipment.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:34
Dave, the appearance of the rack is irrelevent if you place the fidelity of music reproduction at the very top of your priorities. To do otherwise is to be rather shallow in my view.
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 12:37
We are wasting time discussing idle theory. Just get out there, have a listen and report back.
Ali I look forward to reading about your DIY version and how effective it is.
Dave, the appearance of the rack is irrelevent if you place the fidelity of music reproduction at the very top of your priorities. To do otherwise is to be rather shallow in my view.
I don't give a monkey's what it looks like but I do care about how much I pay and £900 is way over the top. At least £600 of that has got to be pure profit - if it was made of carbon fibre and not acrylic the price would be more realistic. I was looking at buying a new rack but the prices being charged by pretty much every manufacturer are extortionate compared to the cost of materials. (And I like a bargain:))
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:01
Thanks for the info Steve,I'll look into it.Could you be more specific about how the whole thing is held together? How is it adjusted?
tubehunter
24-01-2010, 13:06
totally agree, what a rip off.
i work with acrylic sheet and could make that rack for less than 75 quid and use 15mm or thicker material.
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:08
Also,how tightly do the uprights fit to the acrylic rod? I assume the uprights just slide along the rod? If that is the case,Is the rack a little wobbly when there's no kit on it?
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:11
totally agree, what a rip off.
i work with acrylic sheet and could make that rack for less than 75 quid and use 15mm or thicker material.
Hi Duncan,I was going to ask you,what do you use to cut the acrylic,and how do you polish the cut edge? I assume something like a Dremel for these curvy shapes? Do you just ebay your acrylic?
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:21
Steve,looking at the link,it looks like two uprights front and back,with support pieces at each level.Is yours different? You mentioned yours has three uprights?
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 13:25
I think the circular rods into the uprights are quite a tight fit but the adjustable sections that can move along the rods to accommodate different sized equipment are perhaps a looser fit.
I haven't got one yet as I can't afford to spend the best part of 2 grand on a three tier plus a two tier.
The middle upright is not shown in the pic which is an earlier model.
I haven't got one yet as I can't afford to spend the best part of 2 grand on a three tier plus a two tier.
l.
You don't need to Steve cos Duncan can knock you one up for £75 plus a drink:lolsign:
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:39
Thanks Steve.I was looking at one of the links which shows a close view of the top edge of the rack.I'm wondering how the rods and uprights are mated together.It's difficult to see,but it looks like the rod is turned down a little on a lathe,the smaller diameter end is fitted into a hole in the upright,and an acrylic screw fixes the upright onto the rod,the end of which has been drilled and tapped.Is this correct?
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 13:47
Sorry,also just to be clear (arf!) the newer racks like yours ave three figure eight uprights rather than the two shown in the pics?
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 13:48
Ali, tbh, I don't know but what you say seems entirely logical. The essential is that the rack is 100% acrylic. No metal screws anywhere.
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 14:16
How is yours held together Steve?
An alternative on the suspended frame and shelf idea..
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/something_solid-pxr25-prototype_2.jpg
Pic courtesy of Noteworthy Audio, I have no idea how much this is going to cost - and I don't like the colour either - but the standard metal one isn't hugely pricey and I know these work...
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 16:12
I haven't got one Ali. Read back a bit. Yes there are three uprights not two in the pic.
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 16:50
I haven't got one Ali. Read back a bit. Yes there are three uprights not two in the pic.
I thought you meant you had the smaller one Steve.What rack do you have then?
Steve Toy
24-01-2010, 16:58
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4522
The Quadrspire/Music Works Reference rack as seen in the pics linked above. It is the forerunner to the ReVo. Hamish also uses it.
Rare Bird
24-01-2010, 17:04
Put everything on wall racks with no shelves (just open frames) presently working on this.
Ali Tait
24-01-2010, 17:46
Ah ok.I thought you had an acrylic rack of some description! Ok,I'll just figure it out for myself.I've mailed an ebay seller about acrylic bolts,but failing that I'll just use nylon instead.I can get 15mm sheet 2000mm by 500mm for about ninety quid,so I guess I'd just make one with two uprights,otherwise it'll get a bit expensive.
An alternative on the suspended frame and shelf idea..
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/something_solid-pxr25-prototype_2.jpg
Pic courtesy of Noteworthy Audio, I have no idea how much this is going to cost - and I don't like the colour either - but the standard metal one isn't hugely pricey and I know these work...
Sorry, Dave, that's as hideous as the ReVo - just in a different way! :spew:
No idea how effective it is though, sonically :)
Dunc,
totally agree, what a rip off.
i work with acrylic sheet and could make that rack for less than 75 quid and use 15mm or thicker material.
I don't doubt it, mate - as I said so earlier in the thread! I'm sure that Ali could make a good stab at it, too.
Steve, I definitely think that you should try a clone ReVo and see what happens - I'm sure that it would work really well. I did the same thing with stainless steel Mana and saved a fortune! ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
24-01-2010, 23:18
If there are people who know the design principles and people who can machine the materials....
"AOS acrylic rack"
If there are people who know the design principles and people who can machine the materials....
"AOS acrylic rack"
Duncan could (tubehunter)
Top idea, Hamish! :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
25-01-2010, 00:17
Top idea, Hamish! :)
Marco.
Ummmm...Excuse me.....design copy right infraction.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 00:32
Design principles.... Not design
I'm not saying copy it, someone might be able to better it with a different design...
Steve Toy
25-01-2010, 00:33
I agree with Neil. We can't just nick someone else's idea and pass it off as our own.
Design principles.... Not design
I'm not saying copy it, someone might be able to better it with a different design...
Yup, that's what I meant :)
Marco.
Ali Tait
25-01-2010, 09:59
A triangular design might be interesting.Be strong and stable too.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 11:24
I guess it depends on weather or not music works have designed the stand with or without knowledge of how vibrations travel through acrylic or indeed if that matters at all?
I guess the music works cost could come from a lengthy proccess of trial and error with different shapes ... Maybe not, I don't know...
Maybe some advice could be sought from an expert in acrylic?
Maybe a triangle design would cause problems for having corners... Maybe that's why the music works is so good.. Or maybe it's just based on advantages they found when they made the guitar shaped shelves for the qs stands (like steve's)...
I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about here i'm just speculating .... What I am saying is with a bit of investigation into the properties of acrylic it might be possible to make something pretty sweet
It would be good to see such good compaines as Blade Audio making the move to help the forum contributors understand the diffenices that isolation makes, and that Still-points and the new Revo racks could be placed side by side in such an endevour
I agree with Neil. We can't just nick someone else's idea and pass it off as our own.
Unfortunately this is happening a lot today Steve, not just with stands
It is possible to get both good looking and good sounding equipment racks and supports.
Have a look at:-
SRA (Silent running Audio)
http://www.silentrunningaudio.com/home.htm
and HRS (Harmonic Resolution Systems)
http://www.avisolation.com/
I have a SRA platform for my turntable and I see that many are sold for valve amps
I don't know if these supports have made it to the UK yet.
BTW It would be nice though if an AOS stand could be done, I'd imagine it would attract a huge amount of interest
Ali Tait
25-01-2010, 17:56
Well I recieved a reply from the plastics company I mailed regarding sourcing or making acrylic threaded bolts,saying they were unable to help.The way to go now I think is to get the 20mm diameter acrylic rod and drill and tap the ends for 10mm nylon bolts,which are easily available from the bay and are cheap.I'd say maybe get the ends turned down a little in order to fit into suitably-sized holes in the uprights to give strength and rigidity.Perhaps cheese-head bolts could be used,and screwed flush into suitably sized holes in the uprights.
Steve Toy
26-01-2010, 01:56
Good stuff Ali. If it works and you are suitably blown away by the results yourself then I'm sure we can... exchange a few pms....
Three uprights will still be better than two though as it increases the grounding effect. This is why 15mm thickness would seem to work better than 10mm.
Ali Tait
26-01-2010, 10:31
Yes indeed,but it would be down to cost.The 15mm sheet is about 100 quid plus delivery,so 300 just on the sheet.Perhaps three 10mm would be a good compromise.Probably be a couple of months before I get round to it.I've just been told we may have to do a 3 day week for a couple of months,so no spare cash.
Steve Toy
26-01-2010, 17:14
I'm certain 2 x 15mm will be better than 3 x 10mm.
Ali Tait
26-01-2010, 19:36
Be easier to build too.
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