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View Full Version : A TALE OF TWO PHONO STAGES (with apologies to Ch. Dickens)



Mike Reed
22-01-2010, 15:39
Or, to be more inclusive, four stages, if you count the one I started with and the one I ended up with.

As soon as I fitted my Koetsu Black nearly two years ago, I started research on a replacement for my Naim Prefix (powered by my 552 pre.), as I (possibly mistakenly) thought that the healthy 0.6mv output of the Black was pushing the boundaries of the Prefix.

Kuma (PFM) and Chris (here), among others, pointed me in the direction of Art Audio (Vinyl 1) and LFD. There were, obviously, other contenders, but these two shone out on paper, and were more likely to be accessible. The Naim Superline was the obvious choice, but had a limited sensitivity to a range 0.1 to 0.5 mv.

Last springtime a chap brought his V1 over from Gloucestershire. Yes, a hell of a distance but there was an ulterior motive, so he wasn't that put out.
We tried everything to make it sound reasonable into my 552 and then directly into my 509 valved monos. I suppose the fact that there was so little discernable difference between going through the pre. and direct to power amps says something for the 552, IME.

Basically the sound was thin and underpowered (and the V1 has a 70db gain!!!) He was mystified; I was surprised and the designer, Tom Willis, couldn't put his finger on a cause either. The unit wasn't faulty, as it was sold directly afterwards to a satisfied customer. The jury is still out on that one!

Next into the arena is the local Naim dealer with his demo.Superline. He fixed it up and I marvelled at what I had been missing these past few years (with the Prefix). RFI. Loads of it; multilingual, loud and erratic. What was worse was the loud cracks from the speakers at frequent, albeit irregular, intervals.

Whilst we were having lunch and the SL was warming up we were assailed by these unmusical aberrations. The dealer tried, half-heartedly, to investigate earthing, but the audition, though enlightening, was marred by these discharges.

That the SL was superior to the Prefix became evident, though having the dealer choose his own music (some of which I'd forgotten I had!) from my records didn't really help with that prognosis. He seemed happy, though! However, there was no way I could live with that kind of musical disruption, so I declined his offer. Subsequent enquiries to Naim, whereby some communication was supposed (????) to have been instigated with the dealer, yielded silence.

Next up was the LFD MCT (£3K bracket). I almost bought, unheard, a used one from a genuine adherent of this phono stage, back in September. Oddly, at the same time, a dealer whom I'd had bought from many years previously, had a used one for sale at about the same price.

Luckily, as it transpired, he couldn't access this unit (out on loan) when I called and lent me his dem. unit. He had no doubt whatsoever that it would transform the sound from my Black. This wasn't bullshit, either. This dealer has long-standing knowledge of a hell of a lot of gear (including Koetsu) over many, many years, and knew his onions. I trusted his judgement (still do, actually) and ears.

Bloody Nora!!!! Not only could I not find the 'on' light (you can only spot this pinprick from a specific viewpoint), I couldn't find the musical Nirvana this was supposed to deliver. Guess I couldn't fault its impeccable behaviour (no hums, RFI, static discharges) or, indeed, general detail retrieval, but there was just no life. Image width was narrow, and everything was just matter of fact. Great for insomniacs, maybe, but I was used to a bit of dynamism; a bit of verve; joie de vie. I felt like a filleted fish; gutted!

I hadn't mentally pencilled in another trip to Kent to return it two weeks later, but needs must, and I was lucky I hadn't made a commitment. An object lesson, that! Triumph of optimism over scepticism? My friend thinks so, but once bitten......

I was so pissed off by this year of disappointments that I bit the bullet and bought a used Superline in November; later added a Supercap power supply and a Burndy cable. In for a penny.........and I got a pound. Brilliant. Yeah, maybe the Black could be pushing the envelope a bit (though this is probably more psychological that aurally evident) and the minimal RFI I experienced was soon dispelled by a bit of earthing jiggery-pokery. AND no RFI static discharges (well, hardly any!).

Guess there might be a few morals to this story, but it's a fact that I'm a year older than when I started. A large percentage of time remaining at my time of life. Or, maybe, only through suffering do you obtain peace. Who knows?

I imagine the foregoing will have limited appeal, but it's something I've been promising to relate for some time.

Nine months or so ago Marco's parting shot on a thread was ' get a Superline, Mike; you know you want to'. I put it down to 'dismissive' at the time, but just maybe (and I have my doubts), this was 'prescience' on his part.

VINYL KIT INVOLVED ABOVE. ORBE / SME5 / BLACK; 552 + 509 monos

DSJR
22-01-2010, 16:35
A Croft 25R with a decent step-up transformer would have driven the EAR's well and WHY didn't you try one of Tim's preamps/phono stages?????

The Tron is another phono stage of high price but impeccable pedigree..

Of course, the 552 is the best naim way to hear more of the source. Other preamps do it for a very few hundred (you know which ones I'm referring to).....

Mike Reed
22-01-2010, 17:54
A Croft 25R with a decent transformer would have driven the EAR's well and WHY didn't you try one of Tim's preamps/phono stages?????

The Tron is another phono stage of high price but impeccable pedigree..

Of course, the 552 is the best naim way to hear more of the source. Other preamps do it for a very few hundred (you know which ones I'm referring to).....

I don't know the Croft stuff at all, Dave, but the EAR stages were considered, as was the Tron.

I have to say that I was influenced (as one has to be, to a certain extent) by the myriad reports and reviews over the nearly two years I was investigating. The EAR was a superb contender, it seemed, but not within the context of my system and price range. I was also wary of its relatively limited power supply, although for a few hundred quid and plentiful second-hand availability I could have tried it, I suppose.

The Tron would have been difficult to audition, let alone source used, but otherwise, yes; it would have been included.

You mention the Croft's ability to drive the 509s.(with a transformer???????), but the V1 was also perfectly capable (on paper and according to Tom Willis). However, this escapes the point that I didn't want to bypass my pre. for normal listening; I have too many sources to do that!

You suggest the EAR preamps, which I'd love to play with, but I was searching for a phono stage.

Are there really preamps costing hundreds which totally outperform flagship models costing over £15,000 and with similar connectivity? I'd have thought something like this would be an audio scoop!!! AND severely knock a few companies off their pedestal both financially and by repute.

hifi_dave
22-01-2010, 20:29
Mike,
I have the Tron Seven here. I tried it and the V1 before deciding which to go for and the Tron was a no-brainer. I also have the EAR 834p and 88PB which is closer to your budget, the Superline and now the Croft pre's and RIAA phono stage.

Yes, there are phono stages which 'totally outperform' better known phono stages for a fraction of the cost and that applies to every part of the hi-fi chain. There are 'Giant killers' out there...:trust:

DSJR
22-01-2010, 21:10
By "transformer," I meant SUT of course. I also thought you may be finally ditching that filter box you use as a preamp and walk on the wild side a little..... :lol: :peace:

The Grand Wazoo
22-01-2010, 23:28
Mike,
I'm relieved you didn't splash out all that cash on my say so. I'm surprised, as I said before, that you were so disappointed with the LFD, but it just shows that you should take nothing for granted & always verify what you hear from people by getting some first hand experience for yourself.

Marco
22-01-2010, 23:39
Nine months or so ago Marco's parting shot on a thread was ' get a Superline, Mike; you know you want to'. I put it down to 'dismissive' at the time, but just maybe (and I have my doubts), this was 'prescience' on his part.


Hehehe.... I won't say I told ya so, but I told ya so! ;)

Marco.

DSJR
23-01-2010, 17:51
The LFD products I've heard are superb at clinical data extraction, but even into fuller toned speakers, I'm not sure they're hugely "involving." But maybe we need something "added" when we're "reproducing" the recording at home - but that's another can of worms best left alone ;)

The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 19:49
The LFD products I've heard are superb at clinical data extraction, but even into fuller toned speakers, I'm not sure they're hugely "involving." But maybe we need something "added" when we're "reproducing" the recording at home

The best implementations of LFD phono stages I've heard (and in several systems other than mine) were into valve preamps. My MC1 is still with me as a spare for future use.

Mike Reed
24-01-2010, 10:45
The LFD products I've heard are superb at clinical data extraction, but even into fuller toned speakers, I'm not sure they're hugely "involving." But maybe we need something "added" when we're "reproducing" the recording at home - but that's another can of worms best left alone ;)

Far from being a 'can of worms.......', DAVE, maybe this could be an unusual and interesting thread heading.

Personally, I haven't been to a concert of any type for donkey's years, so haven't a clue what things 'should' (??) sound like. I do recognise when something floats my boat, though.

Re. LFD, I was really stunned when I heard the small-scale (c.f. my Prefix) presentation it offered. Synergy problem? Well, maybe, but I can't see how.

Mike Reed
24-01-2010, 10:57
The best implementations of LFD phono stages I've heard (and in several systems other than mine) were into valve preamps. My MC1 is still with me as a spare for future use.

Point taken, CHRIS, but I can't see how the choice of pre. could affect the overall presentation vis a vis an existing yardstick (i.e. my late Prefix).

There was little if any change in volume levels, nor any suggestion of incompatibility because of voltages, sensitivity and the like.

Wouldn't it be nice to audition all these beauties at leisure, without commitment? Hopefully, now my various building etc. disruptions are out of the way (after nearly eight years), I'll have time to investigate other avenues or amplification (all forms). Even a new carpet recently has effected a presentational change which I'm still coming to terms with.

Mike Reed
24-01-2010, 11:10
I also thought you may be finally ditching that filter box you use as a preamp and walk on the wild side a little..... :lol: :peace:

I resemble that remark!!!! (Sorry, can't do smilies, except accidentally!)

Yes, it is overly complex for me (I don't even use the remote!) and I'm a simple man at heart, but the aural proof is in the pudding, as they say.

The 552 is, though expensive and a bit over-the-top, a superbly transparent pre., without a negative word printed anywhere, as far as I know. Even the Yanks loved it.

However, if someone plonked a hair-shirt, inexpensive pre. (with enough facilities, of course) down and it sounded better, that'd be that. I have no specific brand loyalty except that derived from reliability.

DSJR
24-01-2010, 11:28
S'all right Mike, the 52 and upwards ARE good preamps IMO, it's just that I think Naim deliberately over-egg the pudding and all but cripple the lower models to artificially create an expensive upgrade path and they're so far down this road now that if they created a "Flea" style model with on-board or close-to-board regulation (rather than in an extra box) that gives comparable performance sound wise and for far less money, the "establishment" would go bananas and would riot..;)


Products by AVI, LFD and many others seem to give you what's there, warts and all and some posters love this as they don't wish the system to add anything of its own at all. Pulling models out of a hat such as the old MF A1 integrated and many ARC vintage preamps were laughably innacurate and stamped their sonics all over the music they tried to reproduce. Didn't stop legions of fans loving them though. Other makers have tried to steer a central route and even Quad amps of old have a basic neutrality (straght wire with gain) but with a "comfortable" sound I like best heard in the 33/303, 44/405-2, 66/606 and the lovely and sweet 77 and 99 series.

I keep my AVI S2000MP+P preamp as a reality check. I KNOW it's as transparant to the source as possible (the straight through processor loop easily confirms this) and the class A gain blocks really are (:)). Compared to my Croft it appears a bit more deadpan, but I'm sure that it's the Croft that is "wrong," as its balance can be so altered by careful valve choice. This latter does suit the Spendors though, and this is where the mix-n-match comes in and I love the heart and soul that Glenn put into making this dear old unit - something of himself comes through as he hand makes every one.

When I had the big ATC's, the AVI was definitely better suited to them as the ATC's hated any production tweaking, compression of any kind (more modern "pop" studios should use them for monitoring IMO) and had the scale of a big speaker with 12" bass unit, if not the punch-in-the-stomach of their huge and even more powerful models..

Mike Reed
24-01-2010, 15:58
When I had the big ATC's, the AVI was definitely better suited to them as the ATC's hated any production tweaking, compression of any kind (more modern "pop" studios should use them for monitoring IMO) and had the scale of a big speaker with 12" bass unit, if not the punch-in-the-stomach of their huge and even more powerful models..

Cheers for that, Dave....interesting.

My present ProAc Response 4s have all speakers (8) except the soft-dome tweeters made by ATC (4 x 9" and 4 x mids). Your words above seem to describe my general observations, too.

Re. Quad, the valve 22 (?) at least matched its monoblocks, and my RCA monos, which were similar, but my later s/s jobbie, 4 something or other, (42?) really was incredibly dull (with valves), but also with a 'current dumping' amp (405?) I had for a while. Mind you, the ancillary kit I had at the time may not have gelled (Leak 2075 monstrosities, for example).

DSJR
24-01-2010, 22:21
The Quad II's I have sound amazing with Epos ES14's and with a little Croft Super Micro driving them there was magic in that setup with Naim A5 speaker cables which they both liked..

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/TheQuads.jpg

The speaker cables I'm currently using are a sort-of QED 79 strand but with a dumbbell configuration and similar insulation to A5 I think. I have a real problem with routing the wire around the fireplace between the carpet grippers and hearth and under the carpet. I'd like to try something heavier, but the Spendors are 8 Ohm minimum at most frequencies, so it shouldn't be an issue..

These are they with replacement GEC KT66 at HiFi dave's -

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF0571-1-1.jpg

hifi_dave
25-01-2010, 10:18
I like that misty, 'Fairy Tale' effect..

DSJR
25-01-2010, 14:08
Just like their sound :lol:

Mike Reed
25-01-2010, 15:36
I don't have the foggiest idea.........

BTW, DAVE,

For someone who (uniquely?) stocks those brands which encompass similar price points, quality and line-up, I do wonder how you choose between them.

I accept there is system interdependence, and that you've (presumably) got to keep a dealer's 'open mind' policy, but now and again you do mention a preference for one or another within a specific context.

An example here is your recent mention (to me) of the Tron stage as opposed to the E.A.R.s (I think). Is it that these and others (Superline, LFD) are so very different as not to be genuinely comparable?

You seemed to put the Superline at the same price point as the E.A.R.s (I could be wrong here), but the SL plus mandatory power supply puts it up with the MCT (and maybe Tron?), not, surely, the E.A.R.s.

Which factors, I wonder, would prompt you to suggest one item over another (within a ball-park price range); would it be purely down to synergistic considerations?

I've always considered established dealers to be in a much better position, and be better qualified to be reviewers rather than the magazine reviewer who seems to be paid by the cliche and lack 'continuity' of systems.