View Full Version : The best speakers I've ever heard.
Clive197
10-06-2017, 13:28
Yesterday I visited a friend who like me has a full Cyrus Signature system. He has just come into possession of a pair of Vienna Acoustics "The Kiss" speakers. Put simply, these are the best speakers I've heard in my life. Some piano music (Dave Brubeck) was played and I closed my eyes and could honestly believe that there was a piano in the room, it was simply breathtaking. Then some female vocal (Eva Cassidy), she could also have been in the room.
After a couple of hours I was feeling a little sad as I knew that a) I could never afford a pair of these magnificent speakers and b) I could never put a pair in my room as SWIMBO would throw a dippy fit. On their stands they are huge and wot with the £14,000 they cost, I'm sure divorce would be on the cards. My friend was exceptionally lucky to be offered these secondhand for less than I had paid for my Spendor's. As you can understand, he decided that to refuse would have been very rude.
brian2957
10-06-2017, 13:41
These look nice Clive . I've heard a few speakers over the years which I would like to have but couldn't afford . If it helps any , I can't afford these either :)
Doesn't make it any easier to get them out of my head either :rolleyes:
Interesting design. Can see how they could be pretty good. Stereophile review here https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/vienna_acoustics_klimt_the_kiss_loudspeaker/index.html
I don't try see the point of listening to something I'll never be able to afford or buy, it would just annoy me, forever, lol
walpurgis
10-06-2017, 14:23
I don't try see the point of listening to something I'll never be able to afford or buy, it would just annoy me, forever, lol
Funny point of view Mike. I enjoy listening to all gear, regardless of cost. The Avant Garde Trios spring to mind, love hearing those, but there's no way I could buy them.
There again. I've heard mega dear Avalons and Wilsons and been pretty underwhelmed each time.
RobbieGong
10-06-2017, 14:24
Nice post Clive. At £14K retail I'd expect something very very special 'cause that's a lot of pound coins in anyone's language whether they can afford them or not.
Looks like he got a a right result going by what you said he got them for - lucky boy! :)
hifinutt
10-06-2017, 22:00
yes I heard the kiss speakers , glad you were impressed . are you going to put a review on the cu forum ?
I heard some electrostatics driven by a mega expensive system at a local salon some 28 years ago, and I've been chasing that sound ever since. I'm still not there, but getting closer.
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Clive197
11-06-2017, 01:21
yes I heard the kiss speakers , glad you were impressed . are you going to put a review on the cu forum ?
No, I'll leave that to Steve as they are his speakers
paulf-2007
11-06-2017, 09:40
Clive, they may well be the best speakers you've heard but the law of physics tells me they may not be as good as they look and maybe their looks seduced you more. £14000 is a lot of money for a pair of stand mounts albeit with unique life style looks. It's all about what people will pay at the end of the day.
Clive197
11-06-2017, 12:31
Clive, they may well be the best speakers you've heard but the law of physics tells me they may not be as good as they look and maybe their looks seduced you more. £14000 is a lot of money for a pair of stand mounts albeit with unique life style looks. It's all about what people will pay at the end of the day.
I think that as before retirement, I spent many years in the HiFi trade, demonstrating, selling and installing HiFi equipment and speakers that I have a background with some expertise, and therefore can justifiably state that the speakers under discussion are the BEST that I'V ever heard and in my opinion sound better than they look.
I think they look absolutely vile. Not that it matters. But they look plain odd. A real case of stand aethetics over sensible design.
Any insight into what design parameters make these so good?
Audio Al
11-06-2017, 19:50
I have yet to hear the best speakers ever , thats why I keep looking buying and trying :doh:
Firebottle
11-06-2017, 20:19
Well I've heard some YG Hailey speakers http://www.yg-acoustics.com/category/hailey, and they were fooking amazing :eek:
Best speakers ever? Probably best I'll ever hear :D
It is everyone's own idea of what is great and perfect I guess. First time imprssive doesnt always mean you will like a few months in. Speakers especially suffer from this. I quite like my ow ones but am first to admit they have their faults. Its just that I can currently live with them.
Arkless Electronics
11-06-2017, 20:29
Well I've heard some YG Hailey speakers http://www.yg-acoustics.com/category/hailey, and they were fooking amazing :eek:
Best speakers ever? Probably best I'll ever hear :D
Hadn't heard of them but just looked them up and found a "best speaker ever" type review on their Sonya XV speaker...$265,900/pair:eek:
Hadn't heard of them but just looked them up and found a "best speaker ever" type review on their Sonya XV speaker...$265,900/pair:eek:
One wonders how long it will be before someone markets a $1,000,000 set of speakers.
walpurgis
11-06-2017, 20:54
One wonders how long it will be before someone markets a $1,000,000 set of speakers.
I expect it's already happened Barry.
Arkless Electronics
11-06-2017, 21:01
One wonders how long it will be before someone markets a $1,000,000 set of speakers.
I expect it's already happened Barry.
Surely not..? For a pair of speakers.... Maybe one of the AOS members who went to the high end show will know if such things exist? The subset of "can afford that no problem" + "would know good speakers if I heard them as I've been into hi fi and live music for years" must be quite small I would guess...
walpurgis
11-06-2017, 21:15
How about these. A million dollars .....................Each! :eek: And that was eight years ago!
http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/transmission-audio-ultra-the-most-expensive-speaker-ever/
I expect it's already happened Barry.
Indeed it has. And then some. At the risk of making Barry look like Doctor Evil making a ransom demand, here are some $2 million loudspeakers:
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Transmission-Audio-039-s-Ultimate-2mil-for-the-World-039-s-Most-Expensive-Speaker-System-118692.shtml
I expect it's already happened Barry.
It seems it has: http://worldmost.org/most-expensive-speakers/
Arkless Electronics
11-06-2017, 21:44
Has anyone ever confirmed their existence? I find the specs unbelievable frankly.... 143dB continuous? At what frequency? and what distance?
southall-1998
11-06-2017, 22:05
I wonder how much it costs, to build a pair of Kiss speakers? (Before profit etc)
S.
Has anyone ever confirmed their existence? I find the specs unbelievable frankly.... 143dB continuous? At what frequency? and what distance?
6KW of power spread over 'a mind-boggling array of forty 15” subwoofers and twenty-four 8” woofers. Summing these with the 210ft, 2” HF/midrange ribbon and the 13ft, 1” UHF ribbon'
It isn't impossible if you open that up full chat
walpurgis
11-06-2017, 22:24
I've had the best part of 120db in my little 'den'. Mind you, that needed around 40 watts :).
http://i65.tinypic.com/2cx7rqb.jpg
I've had the best part of 120db in my little 'den'. Mind you, that needed around 40 watts :).
So with an extra 7,960 watts you could reach +143dB, though I doubt your speakers (or your hearing) would survive!
walpurgis
11-06-2017, 22:36
Yes. I know loudness is on a steep curve. Can't remember if thats exponential, parabolic, tangental, sinusoidal or other though. :)
I believe sound pressure levels of 200dB above the threshold of hearing can kill.
walpurgis
11-06-2017, 22:45
Dunno. Never tried it! :D
Wouldn't make one too popular with neighbours I should think.
A bit different than assumed ones
https://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/Training/PPETrain/dblevels.htm
jandl100
12-06-2017, 05:53
I think everyone's dream speakers are different.
We all have different expectations and want different things.
Avantgarde Trios for Geoff, perhaps - Wilsons or Avalons for someone else.
I don't try see the point of listening to something I'll never be able to afford or buy, it would just annoy me, forever, lol
Hmm, yeah, me too!
Which is why the Munich Show does not appeal to me.
Although -- if I hadn't heard way-out-of-reach MBL speakers at a succession of London Shows the wife would never had had a chance to say I should get some. :eek:
Haselsh1
12-06-2017, 07:32
Yeah, I agree with Audio Al, I have not yet heard anything that I would consider to be the best in any form of hi-fi, speakers or otherwise which is why I constantly look forward to that possibility. I once owned a Kiseki Blue cartridge and that suited my ears perfectly so that is still the best cartridge I have ever heard but regarding all other components, no, not yet.
Haselsh1
12-06-2017, 07:35
I've had the best part of 120db in my little 'den'. Mind you, that needed around 40 watts :).
http://i65.tinypic.com/2cx7rqb.jpg
Oh love the look of those and would love 'em more in zebrano veneer ;)
walpurgis
12-06-2017, 08:28
Oh love the look of those and would love 'em more in zebrano veneer ;)
You might just find a set in Japan or elswhere overseas Shaun, but they'd cost you dear.
There's a homebuilt pair here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KkGnijb54A Dodgy oriental music, but look at the rest of this guy's kit! :eek:
paulf-2007
12-06-2017, 10:57
It is everyone's own idea of what is great and perfect I guess. First time imprssive doesnt always mean you will like a few months in. Speakers especially suffer from this. I quite like my ow ones but am first to admit they have their faults. Its just that I can currently live with them.
Nail head
Nail head
Och I didn't think Grant was that bad 😋 😁
Beobloke
13-06-2017, 11:51
I don't try see the point of listening to something I'll never be able to afford or buy, it would just annoy me, forever, lol
Whilst this seems a bit defeatist, I can kind of see where you're coming from.
I remember hearing a pair of loudspeakers at the Munich High End Show in 2008 that left me utterly astounded. It was the best sound I had ever heard and I thought there's a good chance I will never hear anything this good again (9 years on, I still haven't). I actually flew home a bit depressed because of this thought, plus the fact that I could never afford or accommodate the speakers in question, anyway.
However, I got over it and part of the fun since then has been to try and find something that could match them and maybe even that I could afford and also fit into my lounge. Last year I finally heard something that does get sonically quite close and which cost a quarter of those originals. Sadly, I can't afford them either!
As to those original speakers, the company only made one pair as a "look what we can do when we really remove all limits" excercise. They said they'd still make some to order if anyone wants some but they are no longer part of their range. I also asked about those demo models and was told "Oh, they're kicking around the factory somewhere" - I could have cried!
Nail head
Long-term listening enjoyment is the most important measurement in HiFi.
The best speakers I've ever heard were in the purpose built garage/listening room of an enthusiast in South Africa. They used Tannoy Autographs loaded with HPDs for the bass, three Sequerra style ribbons for mid, HF and EHF and transmission lines for mid bass. I remember source was a MF cd player and there was a Radford STA25 somewhere in the equation too. Everything but the Autos was the creation of local ribbon guru Mr Singh, who's house I also visited and who had dismembered Apogees scattered around. His opinion of Apogees wasn't too high - I think his own ribbons were much more amp friendly impedance-wise and much more efficient too, matching the Autos.
The sound was just superb in every way - effortless headroom, clarity, scale and presence without any edginess whatever. And imaging was such that the dog barking on the Waters Amused to Death was unambiguously behind the listener, likewise the radio was some distance outside the speakers, both solid and palpable - something I've never been able to repeat with my own rig. Better than Apogees? Well, I have to say way better than ones I've heard - so maybe Mr Singh was right - this set up bettered anything I've heard at shows, and not just by a small margin.
And imaging was such that the dog barking on the Waters Amused to Death was unambiguously behind the listener,
How is that achieved? Would it it have been mixed to be behind the listener? I suppose it uses the the reflection off walls, which would be different in any room, I just cannot get my head around how it is achieved. Is it common with super expensive kit?
walpurgis
14-06-2017, 20:39
Is it common with super expensive kit?
No.
And you can't have non-reflected sounds coming from behind unless there is a source for them behind you.
Mixed with q sound I believe - nontheless, thats what it did.
Seems I'm not the only one either
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amused-to-death-and-avalon-opus
walpurgis
14-06-2017, 20:50
There's a hint in that link. It's probably a phase effect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QSound
Ducatiist
14-06-2017, 22:43
Best Speakers I've ever heard were my Sonus Faber Guarneris (that I stupidly sold) driven by Border Patrol valve amp....totally incredible quality, lifelike imaging and palpable soundstage.
I've been chasing that sound for years. Nearest I've got is Horning Agathon Ultimates driven by very expensive valves...I'm not sure how such diminutive speakers as the Guarneris can sound better than the two cupboards I've got sitting in my lounge (the Agathons).
Franco Serblin is a genius!
Thanks Nial. I will have a look through the albums produced in q sound. I might get one or two and experiment.
Frazeur1
16-06-2017, 10:20
Clive, thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Kiss speaker system. I have heard them as well, and think they are a very fantastic sounding speaker too. And the finish etc. on them is as should be, very nice as well.
My mind is often boggled when I read some comments here and elsewhere on the looks of kit. I realize taste/sound differs extremely at times between folks, but I often see some bias-or appears that way, almost like if something looks nice and streamlined or as a piece of art, it can't be any good, or it is classified as "lifestyle", which we know cannot be good either-wrong!
It is almost like for anything to be worth a shite, it has to be boring and look like every other freaking box made in the last umpteen years! Do we really have to live with crap looking products in order for it to be considered worthy? Ugh.....
hifinutt
16-06-2017, 16:59
couple of vids re the kiss . vienna certainly have some keen owners
https://youtu.be/i_yjho3C_Qo
https://youtu.be/RJP0UjCTmeg
https://youtu.be/kaVuWZNwf4w
must get to hear them again sometime
hifinutt
16-06-2017, 17:03
seems audiofreaks is only distributor which is why perhaps not seen so much at UK shows
The best speakers I've ever heard were in the purpose built garage/listening room of an enthusiast in South Africa. They used Tannoy Autographs loaded with HPDs for the bass, three Sequerra style ribbons for mid, HF and EHF and transmission lines for mid bass. I remember source was a MF cd player and there was a Radford STA25 somewhere in the equation too. Everything but the Autos was the creation of local ribbon guru Mr Singh, who's house I also visited and who had dismembered Apogees scattered around. His opinion of Apogees wasn't too high - I think his own ribbons were much more amp friendly impedance-wise and much more efficient too, matching the Autos.
The sound was just superb in every way - effortless headroom, clarity, scale and presence without any edginess whatever. And imaging was such that the dog barking on the Waters Amused to Death was unambiguously behind the listener, likewise the radio was some distance outside the speakers, both solid and palpable - something I've never been able to repeat with my own rig. Better than Apogees? Well, I have to say way better than ones I've heard - so maybe Mr Singh was right - this set up bettered anything I've heard at shows, and not just by a small margin.
You are invited to hear a good pair of Apogees if you want to take the offer up. 3.5 hour drive though.
They will reset this nonsense I read above LOL.
Can't you only ever say, "The best speakers in that room"?
It's a very boring thought, but my old B&W 801's were sublime in my old house. My room was 40 feet long by 20 wide and 15 tall though. I didn't even bother to bring them to my current place because I knew the room couldn't do them justice.
There isn't really a best speaker because of that I reckon Oldius.
My personal opinion is that nothing is really up to much at any price point and everything sounds rubbish with poor source. What a hobby.
Televisions are the same. Really look at the best examples. Then look at the real world. Are they really anywhere near the same visually? No, not really. Sure they can look fab - seriously good but do they look real? Fuck off do they.
My personal opinion is that nothing is really up to much at any price point and everything sounds rubbish with poor source. What a hobby.
Televisions are the same. Really look at the best examples. Then look at the real world. Are they really anywhere near the same visually? No, not really. Sure they can look fab - seriously good but do they look real? Fuck off do they.
Yep - there isn't, as yet, an audio system anywhere in the world that can close to replicating the experience of listening to a live unamplified concert, and I doubt there ever will be.
On the other hand, some of the 4G OLED TVs are stunning to look at, especially if they are showing wildlife or natural history programmes.
They are stunning to look at on my OLED but they don't look real.
I wonder whether audio is closer to real than TV is. TV can't do 3D that isn't uncomfortable to look at and 3D cues are paramount to looking real. Think about it. They can look fab but keep comparing what you see to the real world. Again and again. They are a gazillion miles off.
That's one thing about this hobby, there is no upper limit. If someone has a design that he claims will sound better, someone. Somewhere will but it. I thought I had seen everything when I saw a $10k phono cartridge, but now I've seen them nearing $20k! Few markets can stand that kind of upper end, perhaps performance autos? But not many industries can continually reach for perfection at any cost, and actually sell product.
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jandl100
18-06-2017, 07:07
They are stunning to look at on my OLED but they don't look real.
I wonder whether audio is closer to real than TV is. TV can't do 3D that isn't uncomfortable to look at and 3D cues are paramount to looking real. Think about it. They can look fab but keep comparing what you see to the real world. Again and again. They are a gazillion miles off.
A big problem imo regarding TV or film images is that in 'real life' the eye varies its focus continually as a scene is viewed and different objects in the scene are focused on - the camera doesn't do that under the viewers control (and anyway does it very differently).
A recorded scene is never going to look real for that reason.
Another huge problem a TV has is that it has to condense everything into a small frame - even on large screens it is small compared to the real world.
There's also some weird luminosity going on where light is pushed out at you rather than light falling naturally on an object. The two effects are very different.
I was in PC World looking at the latest £5K Sony (LG panel) watching some glass blowing video. A couple were talking to a sales rep. The lady says "that nearly looks real" and the chap said "that's a lot better than LGs". He didn't like it much when I told him the panel was an LG LOL.
But anyway the salient point I thought was although it looked fantastic - way above what you'll get in practise with most video sources at home, it had that luminosity issue in abundance. HDR seems to make that aspect even worse TBH.
Mixed with q sound I believe - nontheless, thats what it did.
Seems I'm not the only one either
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/amused-to-death-and-avalon-opus
I bought the Amused to Death album, just for the novelty really. I haven't had the patience to listen to it all but I can confirm that the barking dog on the opening track does indeed sound to be coming from some way off behind your right shoulder. Other effects also go well beyond the speakers. This guy goes to some length explaining what you should hear and how you should hear it! http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/waters.htm There doesn't appear to be a huge amount mixed with qsound however.
Google up one (or All) of Dr F Tooles' youtube lectures.
Fascinating listen from the man who established a method to analyize speakers to determine if they sound good.
He maintained that the centre channel is 90% of the perceived sounds.... 5.1.... 7.1 etc.. is mere distraction..irrelevant
Also claims that the room has Small (negligible) effect and only then below 200hz.
But hey! the viewing of all this..is only a few clicks away :-0
Google up one (or All) of Dr F Tooles' youtube lectures.
Fascinating listen from the man who established a method to analyize speakers to determine if they sound good.
He maintained that the centre channel is 90% of the perceived sounds.... 5.1.... 7.1 etc.. is mere distraction..irrelevant
Also claims that the room has Small (negligible) effect and only then below 200hz.
But hey! the viewing of all this..is only a few clicks away :-0
Not strictly true. He says that the room has an effect it is just that we hear through it, at least we do above bass frequencies. In the bass the room can have a huge influence on what we hear, depending on size and the speakers used.
How is that achieved? Would it it have been mixed to be behind the listener? I suppose it uses the the reflection off walls, which would be different in any room, I just cannot get my head around how it is achieved. Is it common with super expensive kit?
This was achieved using a 'Q' sound mixing process, which I believe throws certain elements out if phase to get the effect.
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Another huge problem a TV has is that it has to condense everything into a small frame - even on large screens it is small compared to the real world.
There's also some weird luminosity going on where light is pushed out at you rather than light falling naturally on an object. The two effects are very different.
I was in PC World looking at the latest £5K Sony (LG panel) watching some glass blowing video. A couple were talking to a sales rep. The lady says "that nearly looks real" and the chap said "that's a lot better than LGs". He didn't like it much when I told him the panel was an LG LOL.
But anyway the salient point I thought was although it looked fantastic - way above what you'll get in practise with most video sources at home, it had that luminosity issue in abundance. HDR seems to make that aspect even worse TBH.
When I used to calibrate my displays, I used to use a pro Sony camera and stick it out of the window, when what I saw on screen looked as close to what I was seeing out of the window I left the settings like that. Colour used to be around 1/3 lower than all the calibrated settings on the forums and lower than I was getting calibrating with software, but the image did look more lifelike.
This Pioneer 500M was set this way..
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/500M_25.jpg
As was this Panny panel...
http://www.zen104526.zen.co.uk/cinema/colour.jpg
Both had colour right down.
But as you say, the problem is there is always that sort of false lighting or pushed iso effect that makes you know it is not real.
This thread has wandered somewhat from the original subject, but I suppose this is the nature of a forum. I'm the owner of 'The Kiss' speakers referred to by Clive197. They are of an unusual design, to say the least. Not only are the stands assymetric, they are raked back. That also weigh 66 kilos each, with stands, plus the Townsend Podiums, which are a fair few kilos themselves. The top speaker is adjustable for both turn and tilt, with the tilt mechanism taking up about 25% of the lower box. The manufacturing finish is exemplary. I can understand that visually they will not be to everyone's taste, but they are certainly not ugly. I'm still adjusting their position and am slowly getting closer to a balanced sound. My experience so far is that they are superbly detailed and drag a lot of detail out of both digital and analogue sources. If anyone local to me in Welwyn Garden City, who would like to listen, they should get in touch. The vinyl side of things is all new, and probably won't be at its best for a month or so.
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This thread has wandered somewhat from the original subject.....
Yeah, I was going to say before getting sidetracked.
The ones that have really impressed me most are....
Dunlavey SCIV's, big sound that do vocals and piano so damned well.
Quad ESL's, 57s sweet as they get, 63's/988's not quite as sweet but just an uncanny midrange and instruments sound like proper instruments, especially strings.
Meridian DSP8000s. They just sound so detailed and yet so smooth and sound the same whether playing at 0db or at -40db at midnight, being DSP the balance between bass, mid and top end sounds the same no matter what volume they are played at. Happily live with the DSP5200s or 7200s as well.
I haven't heard the Meridians you mention, but I have the 6000s at the '97 show and they were so dreadful all who walked into the room frowned in pain at the top.
They must have sorted them.
Today, after becoming despondant with my ADAM Gammas, my mainly listening to radio, suddenly the most beautiful vocals live on R2, this showing that most speech is abysmal, and that they are very closely following the source.
What a relief, and also a shame that R4 speech is so routinely abysmal.
I never liked the 18 bit 6000s, but did like the later 24bit versions.
Oh, actually in '97 that may have been the D6000's rather than DSP6000.
But it is the DSP5200se, 7200se and 8000se models that I love.
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