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View Full Version : Caiman upgrades on eBay - On the level or dubious?



twelvebears
21-01-2010, 06:48
Gents.

I'm guessing I'm not the only one who's spotted these and I just wondered if anyone knew anything about them or the company offering them?

I'm not really considering any of them, but I'm curious to know what AOS Beresford owners think of someone offering upgrades costing mre than the original unit?

Also, would love to hear Stan's perspective.

Covenant
21-01-2010, 07:49
Here is a link:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beresford-TC-7520-CAIMAN-Dac-Level-4-upgrade_W0QQitemZ270515711531QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_CDPlayerSeparate s?hash=item3efbfe2e2b
Is funny that he starts by saying "why pay several hundred pound more for a new dac" then charges several hundred pounds to do the work.

The Grand Wazoo
21-01-2010, 08:02
I read the advert & my immediate response to this:


Through extensive research and testing we know which areas require attention to bring about the largest gains in sound quality.

......was I wonder if his research & test lab is this:


Caiman Mods ( 1 2 3 ... Last Page) http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4580

Themis
21-01-2010, 09:18
I understand people doing DIY, but I will never understand such upgrades. There are stock dacs out there which have all of these "upgrades" and they cost much less than that. :eyebrows:

Dave Cawley
21-01-2010, 09:28
There are stock dacs out there which have all of these "upgrades" and they cost much less than that

Where?

Dave

Themis
21-01-2010, 09:56
There are stock dacs out there which have all of these "upgrades" and they cost much less than that

Where?

Dave
Audio-GD, for instance ?

Dave Cawley
21-01-2010, 09:59
Audio-GD ? Can't see one with those mods and components at a good price? Which one were you thinking of?

Thanks

Dave

StanleyB
21-01-2010, 10:29
I publish my own mods on AoS so that anyone interested in sniffing solder fumes can get some enjoyments from the exercise. As more and more people try them out, a picture emerges of how good any mod is in terms of bangs for bucks.

Unfortunately, untried mods that are not detailed in the 'Drawing Board' section of AoS have no credibility factor and should therefore not be considered to be a genuine improvement, until proven otherwise.

The Vinyl Adventure
21-01-2010, 10:29
Find out how much of those invidvidul parts cost when bought in quantity, then work out how long it would take an experienced soldering person to put them in, add the time it takes to test it. Take into account all other overheads including the time it takes to advertise on eBay, costs of eBay, costs of paypal... There's loads of stuff
I'm sure they make a profit, but it's just business! I wouldn't pay it, I ask around here if someone was willing to do it for me ... But at £270 I wouldn't be critical of someone who did pay it!
What I am critical of is the options - level 1,2,3,4 ... To me that's just clever marketing... But I might be wrong!

Themis
21-01-2010, 10:39
Dave, the 19MKII has Vishay DALE, Evox, Solen and custom Nover components, discrete output stage and R-Core transformer. Well, it doesn't have a Burson opamp, but...
What I mean is that you can have high-grade components in a finished product. Why getting in an uncertain upgrade path ? Unless you know personally (or have a blind faith) in the guy doing the upgrades, of course : the components themselves mean little, don't you think ?

Dave Cawley
21-01-2010, 11:16
Hi Dimitri

That looks good!

Thanks

Dave

Gazjam
21-01-2010, 11:37
His feedback looks good actually, had a quick scan and some have came back with upgrades to the 7510 Dac?

I'd always go the AOS route though, £270 is a lot of wonga to shell out on something unknown?

captain
21-01-2010, 13:55
I know Brent quite well and have had a lot of work done by him and can confirm it is top flight work, he does know what he is doing and charges very fair prices. Just about to throw £275 on Squeezebox upgrades with him and know it will be money well spent. All the clocks, regs and power supplies are designed by him he is not some home hobbiest check out his site LINK (http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/). His clams no more then other companies who use this forum.

Covenant
21-01-2010, 15:53
I know Brent quite well and have had a lot of work done by him and can confirm it is top flight work, he does know what he is doing and charges very fair prices. Just about to throw £275 on Squeezebox upgrades with him and know it will be money well spent. All the clocks, regs and power supplies are designed by him he is not some home hobbiest check out his site LINK (http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/). His clams no more then other companies who use this forum.

Is it worth spending that kind of money Kirk, when the superior Touch is imminent? Having said that I would really appreciate you reporting your views when the work is complete.

Themis
21-01-2010, 16:15
I know Brent quite well and have had a lot of work done by him and can confirm it is top flight work, he does know what he is doing and charges very fair prices. Just about to throw £275 on Squeezebox upgrades with him and know it will be money well spent. All the clocks, regs and power supplies are designed by him he is not some home hobbiest check out his site LINK (http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/). His clams no more then other companies who use this forum.
Knowing the modder, changes a lot of things, I agree. My (a bit negative) reaction was -obviously- not valid in this case.

leo
21-01-2010, 16:58
Some mods like capacitor changing is a personal thing imo,Out of all those mods I'd say the regulation upgrades would certainly be worth doing, the rest I wouldn't like to say

What I find interesting is that theres the option of having the Burson modules fitted , on Bursons website it clearly states working voltage is +/-12-25v DC, the Caiman is +12v which is half what Burson recommends

captain
21-01-2010, 17:59
Is it worth spending that kind of money Kirk, when the superior Touch is imminent? Having said that I would really appreciate you reporting your views when the work is complete.

The Squeezebox 3 I have has already had the earlier Bolder Cables Enthusiast Digital only mods and I am running it powered with a TeddySB3 power supply. I only need the digital out as I am using a DAC (see a bit down page LINK (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=397&page=2)) Looking to take it to the next level with Brent's C2 clock and a couple of his regulators. Should sound nice it already out preforms the Helios x5000 which I have, I read in a earlier thread that Marco equalled it to his Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES it is very good. Also going to disconnect the LAN socket and wire it up to output from the Squeezeboxs I2s as my DAC has I2s import.

Will keep you posted.

Covenant
21-01-2010, 19:25
Kirk is Brent a member of the forum? It would be great if he could chat about the mods he does.

captain
21-01-2010, 19:39
No think he's just a member of DIY Audio

StanleyB
22-01-2010, 09:41
People like him obstruct further modification developments. There is no exchange of ideas, just leaching of bits and pieces from other people's labour of love on the various forums.

captain
22-01-2010, 10:24
People like him obstruct further modification developments. There is no exchange of ideas, just leaching of bits and pieces from other people's labour of love on the various forums.

That sounds a bit bitter;) he is a businessman offering people a service and trying to make a living for himself as you do. I do not see you saying things openly about Mark at Audiocom who also offers a similar service. I find what he does is very useful as my soldering skills are not so good as I am sure others do as well. If you go over to DIY Audio and do a search with his user name rowemeister you will find him very happy to share his views and give addvice. Also check out this post as he is one of the main contributors LINK (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/54009-marantz-cd63-cd67-mods-list.html)

StanleyB
22-01-2010, 10:53
That sounds a bit bitter;) he is a businessman offering people a service and trying to make a living for himself as you do.
That's your misguided perception:) and an affront to the word businessman. Where is the enthusiastic engineering aspect in any of it?
Tirna Electronics has been doing mods on my products for a very long time, and others have been offering for sale various opamps that they mention to be recommended upgrades for the TC-7520. Those are clear and obvious connection to what has and is being discussed in the DIY section of AoS.
But suckering gullible punters with unproven mods and at a hefty price as well smacks of profiteering.
I am more than happy with what I make out of my sales, but I do feel an obligation to protect my customers from being taken for a ride.

UV101
22-01-2010, 11:06
Hi Guys, I'm new here but been posting on DIY Audio for some time. I felt that I could add something to this discussion so I joined this forum too!

I am an avid modder! I started with a Trichord clock 4 in a Philips CD850MKII about 5 years ago and have now progressed through several Marantz CD63's, a 67 a Teac VRDS10 and my current player a Philips CD960 using the famous CDM1 transport and now sporting a TDA1541 S2 double crown! I also have built a TDA1541 "green dac" (purchased via a Chinese seller on eBay) and my latest project is a Meridian 207 purchased faulty again on eBay!

So the reason for my post, firstly I will point out that I do know Brent and I am one of his customers. As an former electronics engineer (now working IT!) I am capable of fitting all of the parts in these “level x” mod packages offered by audioupgrades. These components offered, are available separately for us to fit at home should we choose! Brent will not only supply the components, but also provide good sound advise often to the extent that (imho) he cannot be making a profit (time is money)! The upgrade packages offered via his website and eBay are aimed at people who have started to understand the benefits of these mods but are not suitably skilled to carry out the modifications themselves. Yes of course there will be marketing strategy involved when pricing and naming the upgrade levels but I believe each level does represent significant gains over its previous.

There are good general rules when modding any equipment. For example most commercial cdp’s will comply to "red book" (which works but that’s all you could say for it!) standards for clock jitter. A high quality low noise clock will most definitely be a major upgrade to most players allowing more of the detail to be read from the disk and the music more accurately reproduced. Multiple low noise regulation devices will reduce noise contamination between circuits and improve the sound no end. Higher capacity low ESR caps will allow for smoother power delivery and therefore increase presence and dynamics. A discrete amplifiers like a Burson will be considerably better that a cheap (or expensive chip op-amp).

Make no mistake, the component "hop ups", regulators and clock will massively increase the performance of any player or DAC in this case. How many times has a Philips or Marantz cdp been "improved" using these techniques and resold under a different name? Phonosophie IS a Marantz CD67, countless players in the 80's were based on Philips players! Meridian, Arcam, B&O, Naim they were just better implemented versions of similar kit with better quality components. In particular, Naim will use the principle of multiple PSU’s and regulators to offer “high-end” equipment. The upgrade power supplies employ larger transformers, bigger capacitors and better/ additional voltage regulators. This is the essence of what modders strive to achieve.

I can personally vouch for the quality of the parts used in the upgrade packages, the claims made over what it will do for you, the quality of the workmanship and the integrity of the guy doing the work! Brent’s interest stems from his own desire to achieve the best from his own equipment. Look on his site for the specification of his own player. 21 SPower regulators, 9 Transformers..... the list is endless! The parts inside his own player are the same as the parts he sells.

Why do I feel I want to tell you this? Because I have been nothing but impressed with every component and device I've purchased. This is by some distance the most helpful and professional company I have encountered in this field.

I can assure you, you would not be disappointed!

StanleyB
22-01-2010, 11:13
No one is complaining about the quality of the parts. What I am questioning are the hyped up claims about the alleged improvements. Are there any independent modders who have implemented the same individual mods and confirmed their usefulness?
At least with my mods I give them out for others to try and decide if it is worthwhile or not. Many of them have become a production mod afterwards, thereby reducing the cost of retrospective implementation.

The Vinyl Adventure
22-01-2010, 12:05
whats his web site?

i can see your point stan, but i guess this guys aproach is more akin to a bigger manufacturer ie he is telling the consumer what sounds good... as aposed to your way which is efectivly work with the customer to a muturaly happy end.
i would say there is a place for both, maybe if your concernd you should contact this chap and talk to him... he has more than likely asumed you are more like a big company than you actually are..

UV101
22-01-2010, 12:13
I am independant however, I am a customer of Sercal but would need to be in order to comment on the reliably on the workmanship and quality of the parts.

As a designer and manufacturer, you must be able to appreciate the trade off between cost a quality. This is not to suggest that that the quality is poor in your products (quite the opposite in fact). To pick up on one particular area of potential modification, you must be able to vouch for the differnce in audio quality between a chip opamp and a discrete opamp. There is no way that you could build a fully discrete output stage in your product for the retail price. You say some improvements are tested and make it into production, there is no difference here.

I'd suggest that we throw this open here. Does anyone have experience of Burson discrete opamps vs ANY chip opamp or experience of any "Low noise" (Sercal SPower, Tent labs, Audiocom etc) regulator vs std common voltage regulator. Also any comments following a clock upgrade (Trichord, audiocom, Burson or Sercal).

I do feel that you have been more than unfair in your comments on this post, but then that is just my opinion. :)

Hamish, the link it here http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk

Also take a look at the CD63/67 thread menioned in a previous post. Brent does have a massive input here (myself to a lesser extent) helping people to make improvements to their players.

I hope I have not offended anyone with my 1st posts here in this forum

Ian

Marco
22-01-2010, 12:15
Hi Guys, I'm new here but been posting on DIY Audio for some time. I felt that I could add something to this discussion so I joined this forum too!

I am an avid modder! I started with a Trichord clock 4 in a Philips CD850MKII about 5 years ago and have now progressed through several Marantz CD63's, a 67 a Teac VRDS10 and my current player a Philips CD960 using the famous CDM1 transport and now sporting a TDA1542 S2 double crown! I also have built a TDA1541 "green dac" (purchased via a Chinese seller on eBay) and my latest project is a Meridian 207 purchased faulty again on eBay!

So the reason for my post, firstly I will point out that I do know Brent and I am one of his customers. As an former electronics engineer (now working IT!) I am capable of fitting all of the parts in these “level x” mod packages offered by audioupgrades. These components offered, are available separately for us to fit at home should we choose! Brent will not only supply the components, but also provide good sound advise often to the extent that (imho) he cannot be making a profit (time is money)! The upgrade packages offered via his website and eBay are aimed at people who have started to understand the benefits of these mods but are not suitably skilled to carry out the modifications themselves. Yes of course there will be marketing strategy involved when pricing and naming the upgrade levels but I believe each level does represent significant gains over its previous.

There are good general rules when modding any equipment. For example most commercial cdp’s will comply to "red book" (which works but that’s all you could say for it!) standards for clock jitter. A high quality low noise clock will most definitely be a major upgrade to most players allowing more of the detail to be read from the disk and the music more accurately reproduced. Multiple low noise regulation devices will reduce noise contamination between circuits and improve the sound no end. Higher capacity low ESR caps will allow for smoother power delivery and therefore increase presence and dynamics. A discrete amplifiers like a Burson will be considerably better that a cheap (or expensive chip op-amp).

Make no mistake, the component "hop ups", regulators and clock will massively increase the performance of any player or DAC in this case. How many times has a Philips or Marantz cdp been "improved" using these techniques and resold under a different name? Phonosophie IS a Marantz CD67, countless players in the 80's were based on Philips players! Meridian, Arcam, B&O, Naim they were just better implemented versions of similar kit with better quality components. In particular, Naim will use the principle of multiple PSU’s and regulators to offer “high-end” equipment. The upgrade power supplies employ larger transformers, bigger capacitors and better/ additional voltage regulators. This is the essence of what modders strive to achieve.

I can personally vouch for the quality of the parts used in the upgrade packages, the claims made over what it will do for you, the quality of the workmanship and the integrity of the guy doing the work! Brent’s interest stems from his own desire to achieve the best from his own equipment. Look on his site for the specification of his own player. 21 SPower regulators, 9 Transformers..... the list is endless! The parts inside his own player are the same as the parts he sells.

Why do I feel I want to tell you this? Because I have been nothing but impressed with every component and device I've purchased. This is by some distance the most helpful and professional company I have encountered in this field.

I can assure you, you would not be disappointed!

Hi Ian,

Welcome to AoS :)

Would you like us to open a trade account for you? It's necessary to declare your trade status on this site, particularly when you're advertising a company website in your signature ;)

Regards,
Marco.

The Vinyl Adventure
22-01-2010, 12:18
im sure you will be fine! .... head over the welcome page and folow suit, we like a bit of "hi im ... i have a hifi .... i listen to..." round these parts

UV101
22-01-2010, 12:26
Hi Marco,

Thanks for the welcome. :)

I am not trade, just an avid modder. I have an electronics history (BTEC HNC in electronic engineering from the late 80's!). I worked in the service industry for several years as a TV/Audio repair engineer until my interest in IT security took over!

My website in my signature is just about some of the equipment i've owned, built and modded over the years. The new site is incomplete but there is a link to the old site with more details of my project at the bottom of the front page.

Ian

edit* sorry, should have put this post in the welcome area, can a mod please move! ty

Marco
22-01-2010, 12:34
Hi Ian,

Do you sell your modifications to others and use your website partly to promote that selling, or is your website used purely to illustrate your D.I.Y work?

If its the former, then you are seen as trade and will therefore need to be declared as such. If not, then there's no problem. Your website does look rather sales-directed, I must say.

There's no big issue here - merely one of etiquette, so that members know in advance when they're dealing with someone with commercial interests.

I'm sure you understand :)

Marco.

UV101
22-01-2010, 13:00
Def not sales! I work full time in IT and have this obsession with "improving" and sometimes distroying Hifi. I'll take the comment about the looks of the site as a compliment!

I do have a couple of links on my pages to component suppliers (yes one of them is audioupgrades) and also to the DIY forum. I would love to be professional at this but I'd miss the agro if the IT now!

I do not sell anything, I gain nothing commercially via my website, i do not complete repairs commercially i'm in this purely for my own personal satifaction.

Take a look at the old site from my front page and all will become clear!

Ian

Marco
22-01-2010, 13:08
That's fine, Ian - just so long as we know.

Perhaps you would reciprocate and feature AoS as one of the links on your new website (along with D.I.Y Audio, etc) since we're promoting yours in your signature? :)

Enjoy the forum. You seem to be settling in nicely.

Marco.

UV101
22-01-2010, 13:42
No Problem! Links help ratings for both of us :)

Marco
22-01-2010, 13:50
Indeed, Ian, and thank you. Please inform me by PM when the AoS link is in place :)

I'm a customer of Audiocom International and so know Mark Bartlett (also a member here) very well.

As you will see from my signature, I use a heavily Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 (addressing the very component issues you mention), which also uses TDA 1541s. The performance this combination offers is sensational, so I know exactly where you were coming from in your first few posts.

Please bear in mind, however, that this thread is primarily related to the Beresford DAC (and discussion of it thereof) and not about promoting Brent's digital modifications.

If he wishes to enjoy that facility then he must register here under his company name as a trade member. I trust you can appreciate that :cool:

Marco.

captain
22-01-2010, 14:11
But suckering gullible punters with unproven mods and at a hefty price as well smacks of profiteering.
Stan I can not comment if the upgrades you mention have been proven you are in more of a position to do that I will ask him though. Can I also ask about the claims you make regarding the Toslink cable you sell on your site to me and I am sure others this also seems a bit unproven one's zero's and light how can it effect the sound :scratch:

chrism
22-01-2010, 14:26
Kirk,

I feel Stan is trying to help us differentiate between trying "suggested" mods for free (well the cost of the bits) and being told that this "must have" is an improvement. Bit late once you have paid up (quite a lot) and had it done - would we have to pay again to go back?

I have already done some of the mods promoted with my 7510 and whilst they undoubtedly affect the sound to me they may not actually give a true sound quality lift.

I for one see Stan's warning as beneficial and at the very least am more imformed than I was.

Regards

captain
22-01-2010, 14:46
Kirk,

I feel Stan is trying to help us differentiate between trying "suggested" mods for free (well the cost of the bits) and being told that this "must have" is an improvement. Bit late once you have paid up (quite a lot) and had it done - would we have to pay again to go back?

I have already done some of the mods promoted with my 7510 and whilst they undoubtedly affect the sound to me they may not actually give a true sound quality lift.

I for one see Stan's warning as beneficial and at the very least am more imformed than I was.

RegardsI understand why he personally may make some of those comments, but I think some of his remarks are coming over as if Brent is some sort of con man.

UV101
22-01-2010, 14:53
Indeed, Ian. Please inform me by PM when the AoS one is in place :)

I'm a customer of Audiocom International and so know Mark Bartlett (also a member here) very well.

As you will see from my signature, I use a heavily Audiocom-modified Sony X-777ES/DAS-R1 (addressing the very component issues you mention), which also uses TDA 1541s. The performance this combination offers is sensational, so I know exactly where you were coming from in your first few posts.

Please bear in mind, however, that this thread is primarily related to the Beresford DAC (and discussion of it thereof) and not about promoting Brent's digital modifications.

If he wishes to enjoy that facility then he must register here under his company name as a trade member. I trust you can appreciate that :cool:

Marco.

Indeed I do appreciate what you are saying. I did however feel the need to defend what was perceived quite a personal attack on someone who has helped me out in my own quest no end. I do also feel that any design engineer should be open to suggestion on potential improvement. Most of the work that goes on on the DIY thread is just that. try something, comment and share. If its makes a difference for the good leave it in. If its detrimental or colours the sound, take it out, Having made my point i need to comment on the subject no further.

Having said that, I do have Audiocom basic regs in my green DAC so I am not just a fan of Brent. I am a fan of the principles that lead us to obtain more and more from our kit.

I will update my mods document on the TDA and send it to you for a look!
there is a (poor phone camera) picHERE (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/133780-philips-cd650-mods-91.html#post2045276)

StanleyB, are you open to contructive discussion based on non specific supplier with respect to potential modification and possible product enhancement? I am in no way interested in playing down what is clearly a quality product and a both professional and personal service that you offer.

Ian:cool:

chrism
22-01-2010, 15:02
Hi Kirk,

The question I have is if the company is capable of improving a piece of kit as claimed, why not just go the whole hog and produce their own? The mods proposed do appear to double the cost of say a Beresford so you would think that there was plenty of margin to do so.

Then it would be very easy for the non technical to evaluate, on a sale or return basis, the said sound benefits of the investment.

Very easy to be swept along on the promise of sound improvements when dealing with modded kit as you will have inevitably lost the benchmark or original measurement point.

Regards

Chris

captain
22-01-2010, 15:06
Hi Kirk,

The question I have is if the company is capable of improving a piece of kit as claimed, why not just go the whole hog and produce their own?

Talking to Brent apparently it's in the pipe line so we may see something in the future.

UV101
22-01-2010, 15:30
Hi Kirk,

The question I have is if the company is capable of improving a piece of kit as claimed, why not just go the whole hog and produce their own? The mods proposed do appear to double the cost of say a Beresford so you would think that there was plenty of margin to do so.

Then it would be very easy for the non technical to evaluate, on a sale or return basis, the said sound benefits of the investment.

Very easy to be swept along on the promise of sound improvements when dealing with modded kit as you will have inevitably lost the benchmark or original measurement point.

Regards

Chris

I am keen at this point to stay non supplier specific.

The principle is very simple. There are many ways to implement a Burr Brown, TI or Cirrus or whatever flavour DAC you choose to use. Potentially, the same DAC chip can be found in a Chinese DAC on eBay costing sub £60 as could be found in a commercial external DAC costing in excess of £1000. The quality of the pcb, layout, power supplies, clock and other components surrounding the actual DAC chip will effect audio reproduction capabilities.

If you take a £200 DAC and employ the same theory, it is entirely possible to spend another £200 "improving" the components and end up with a product that is comparable to a £700 product.

On the other hand it is entirely possible to get it wrong. You could end up with components that don’t really play nicely together. You should as a customer expect to find that any commercially available modifications are carefully chosen and most importantly listened to. There is always the possibility that you do indeed lose sight of what the original sound was like and therefore prior to the change however, when you start to notice tiny details that just didn't exist before and the dynamics make you jump on a track that you've listened to hundreds of time before, you will know what I’m talking about.

The point is, don’t just think that you should not spend more than the cost of the unit on mods or that because the cost of a modification package costs more than the initial product, that it must be a rip off.

Check out Musical Fidelity's fine-tune section HERE (http://www.musicalfidelity.com/price-list.asp) . They do much less than all the modification companies I know of and charge 3 or 4 times as much because they can!

Incidentally, the price for the fine-tune on an X10D tube buffer is £149. The components can be purchased from Farnell for less than £30 and the valves for not much more. It would take no more than 30 mins to complete the upgrade!!!

Marco
22-01-2010, 15:54
Excellent post, Ian. I think that I'm going to enjoy your contributions here, as we appear to be on a similar wavelength in these matters ;)

Incidentally, where are you from - or have you already said so and I've missed it? Also, could you please add "Ian" to your signature so that people automatically know what proper name to address you by?

Cheers! :cool:

Marco.

Themis
22-01-2010, 18:48
On the other hand it is entirely possible to get it wrong. You could end up with components that don’t really play nicely together. You should as a customer expect to find that any commercially available modifications are carefully chosen and most importantly listened to. There is always the possibility that you do indeed lose sight of what the original sound was like and therefore prior to the change however, when you start to notice tiny details that just didn't exist before and the dynamics make you jump on a track that you've listened to hundreds of time before, you will know what I’m talking about.

So, there *can* be a difference, but there's no methodology guaranteeing there's an improvement other than making the changes and listening ?

Is that correct ? :scratch:

UV101
22-01-2010, 21:24
Hi Dimitri,

This is indeed true however, it is not down to blind guessing. Over a period of time, you will learn what type of upgrades may or may not be so effective in a system.

There are certain rules of thumb if you like. A clock upgrade will normally improve detail. A clock with a seperate power supply and low noise regulator will usually give massive improvements in detail but also increase soundstage. Things like acoustic guitars will come alive. Generally speaking, the opamps used in the vast majority of equipment are parts that cost no more than a few pence. This is the amplifier section of the output. Better components here can make a difference to background noise and tonal detail. In the same way that some people have reported deeper tighter Bass by adding a very good ribbon super tweeter, the drop away of the background appears to bring everything else in the sound forward. If the quiet parts of the music are quieter, the whole balance appears to change and the music leaps out at you. You can spend no more than a few £ per opamp and get good improvements in this area. Some opamps suit some DAC chips better than others in the same way you may not like certain combinations of equipment in you racks at home. My particular fav dac, the TDA1541 is already a warm friendly and analogue sounding dac an as such responds well to components that can sound very detailed but over clinical in some other players. You do however need to coax the detal out of this chip. Decoupling caps on the opamp also play an important part. Certain types are grouped as having certain characteristics. Black Gate caps are generally considered good at everything!? Rubycon ZA's are considered good for detail but can lack warmth, Elna Cerafine or SilmicII's are warmer but considered less detailed. I can only speak for my own experience but I can listen to a player, hear what it has to offer and take a guess at what I may want to try in it. Its not always correct but the thats the fun in what I do. What I can say is that there is no way whatsoever that I could buy the sound that I enjoy now in my CD960 comercial player. I simply do not have the budget for it. Along the way I have accured many spare "hop up" components that I no longer use in my main player the most noticable being an ebay copy of the Musical fidelity X10D which ahs been modified in excess of the upgardes offered be MF in my previous post. This tube buffer stage sounds very good on a clinical sounding modified CD63. It gives the player a characteristic associated with tube output which may or may not be to your taste. In the TDA1541 which already has this tonal characteristic, it is too much to be honest. Definately not a good match. This cost a fair bit too! Expensive mundorf Supreme caps in the signal path (far superior to MKP type) and Panasonic low esr caps throught out the power supply along with shottky diodes for rectification. Top it off with Cryo treated valves! Where is this stage now? in a box in the garage.... say no more.

In a commercially purchased upgrade, you should not be concerned with "is it going to work". Choices will have already been made for you based on experience. I would also suggest at this point, that no component is transparent and as such will add it own mark on the sound, After careful consideration in component choice, the sound will lend itself to what YOU may want to hear. If this was not the case, why on earth would there be so many manufacturers with so many models for us to choose. If after spending a considerable amount of money on an upgrade, you are not satisfied with the outcome, with feedback to a respectable supplier, you should be able to fine tune the upgrade to meet your needs or have the player returned to it pre modded state

I can say there are also some mods that appear to give little for the cost. This is unlikely until the palyer reaches a fairly high state of tune. It can be the case that 2 or 3 reasonalby expensive mods can combine to make a big difference. The more you do, the more difficult and expensive it is to get big gains. It is my personal philosophy that if I have not made things worse with a change made, leave whatever "gucci" part thats been installed in the player as there is a good chance it will work well with another component upgrade later. You do get the feel for what will work on its own and what upgrades will work well together.

My apologies, I've got a bit long winded again! :steam:

In summary, the initial changes must have been made in a "suck it and see" fashion but thats exactly how any equipment will have been put together in the first place but eventually backed by exprerience. What you should get when you buy a player or dac is someones professional choice on what dac, filter type and basic component combination may work together. What you get in these upgrade packages is someone's opinion on what parts will make these initial choice in components blossom further.

When you buy from Audiocom, Audioupgrades or any other upgrade retailer, it should not be a lottery. These upgrades should have been selected because they work. The hard work has already been done and the choices made. It is my opinion that this is indeed the case!

Breath out and grab another beer! :cool:

Alex_UK
22-01-2010, 22:36
Great post - mine's a red wine! :cocktail:

StanleyB
23-01-2010, 08:02
These upgrades should have been selected because they work. The hard work has already been done and the choices made. It is my opinion that this is indeed the case!
Is capitalizing on the hard work that has been done by he hobbyist a fair way to go about it? I can see a decline in modification ideas being posted on AoS if the hard experimental work of the fair minded is going to be resold by the likes of you at eye watering prices. I for one would be reluctant to offer any future upgrade suggestions on a hobbyist basis, instead of on a commercial footing.

twelvebears
23-01-2010, 09:32
Is capitalizing on the hard work that has been done by he hobbyist a fair way to go about it? I can see a decline in modification ideas being posted on AoS if the hard experimental work of the fair minded is going to be resold by the likes of you at eye watering prices. I for one would be reluctant to offer any future upgrade suggestions on a hobbyist basis, instead of on a commercial footing.

Erm.... sorry Stan but I don't believe Ian has any financial interest in these upgrades and he's not selling anything, so I hardly think phrases like 'by the likes of you' are fair....

UV101
23-01-2010, 12:32
Is capitalizing on the hard work that has been done by he hobbyist a fair way to go about it?

Although Brent clearly has a financial interest in his own business, he has been a major contrubutor to Ray's CD63 (and others) thread over on the DIY forum. If you read through, it clearly takes you on a journey of trial error and discovery. Brent HAS played a major part in the further development of some idea's shared across the internet. References are regularly made to acoustica.org.uk and tnt etc.
His personal posts now total 2941. Clearly demonstating that in addition to his commercial interest, he also a hobbyist contributor.


resold by the likes of you at eye watering prices

As previously stated, I have no financial interest whatsoever. Not only in audioupgrades, Audiocom, Burson, Mundorf, Trichord, Kimber to name but a few but I do have experience of their services and products which I am willing share for the greater good of everyone here. “Eye watering” prices? In my previous posts here, I believe that I have put forward sufficient argument for costs. Yes I'd like to see some of the products sold cheaper, but I personally do not want to see a reduction in quality.

FACT:- Brent is a major contributor to the 13965 posts on the CD63/67 thread on diyaudio. He does share his experiences for others to learn from. Clearly this is a 2 way thing.

FACT:- These ARE improvements over the std set up of any device. He must include guarantees and assurances over the quality of the work. This will carry a cost.

FACT:- Brent is not off swanning around the Caribbean on a private motor cruiser as a result of selling "eye watering priced" upgrades.

I am in the minority from the point of view that I can and will carry out these types of modifications at home. Why shouldn't this eye opening service not be available for those without the skills to complete the work for themselves.

I cannot believe that you are completely shut to the idea that someone may want to take your product and push it far beyond it original design specification. I have been asked to be mindful of the fact that this thread not about promoting the upgrade services offered elsewhere on the net, but I find your comments a little personal and insulting. I am guessing that you were not born with the knowledge to build a DAC for commercial resale in your head. You therefore must have acquired that knowledge from somewhere? College, datasheets, electronics publications, internet? Are you now profiteering from the knowledge you have gained through research?

I would respectfully ask that you refrain from making the comments personal :steam:

Gazjam
23-01-2010, 13:09
Lets take a step back Chaps....

Ian, speaking for myself you're welcome here at AOS, and I, as are a lot of people I'd imagine, looking forward to your insight on here, which is of course an enthusiasts forum.

Try not to take Stans comments personally..sometimes he gets a bit vociferous in the defence of his Product...and why not, up to a point?

I agree though the choice of words used could have been better - sorry Stan, but what happened to welcoming the new guy? :)

Personally, I dont think everyone would pay a lot of money for dac upgrades when the wealth of knowledge on the forum here is so good.
That said, whats wrong with the option being there?

Surely choice is a good thing, and if someone can offer improvements to the Beresford...it might even increase the sales of the Caiman/7520 those looking for, say, a £400odd Dac?

PLUS...
there will no doubt be an exchange of ideas about hi spec regs, opamps, caps etc brought about by another enthusiast modder (who happens to run a business like yourself Stan).
I personally do not feel its a threat to business, more likely a boost to be honest?

Can only be good surely?

UV101
23-01-2010, 13:29
there will no doubt be an exchange of ideas about hi spec regs, opamps, caps etc brought about by another enthusiast modder (who happens to run a business like yourself Stan).
I personally do not feel its a threat to business, more likely a boost to be honest?

Can only be good surely?

I couldn't agree more! There would be no reason that some of the types of modifications carried out by my home modders like myself or the various business modders should not be integrated in order to achive a higher specification production unit (after careful evaluation of course).

My appologies for being a little short in the last post.

I can assure you I strive for the same things in my audio that you do. We most definately share a common interest.

chrism
23-01-2010, 13:47
Hi Ian,

If you are just wanting to join in the fun of "hobby" group mods and share your ideas, trials and tribulations then brill. To me this is quite different to promoting and the associated brainwashing that appears to go with some commercially available modification outlets.

So on this basis I look forward to your posts and - welcome.

Ps looked at your web site and interested in the Focal speaker mods you have tried as I have a pair of JM Lab 926's begging to be tinkered with.

Regards

Chris

UV101
23-01-2010, 14:01
Hi Chris,

I'm definately not interested in individually promoting any of the commercial mod outlets, merely stating that there are benifits to carrying out moddification! I am a hobbyist and as already demonstarted, keen to share my experiences! :)

Rather than hijack this thread, I will dig out some photos of the xovers and start a new thread!

I really should get the rest of the pages online on my site too, even if its just some associated photos on each page!

Ian

chrism
23-01-2010, 14:11
Thanks Ian,

Web page looking really good and I am sure will be of interest to all modders out there.

Regards

Chris

Covenant
23-01-2010, 15:34
Ian, you have had a baptism of fire which I dont think you deserve. An apology from certain people would go along way. :)
Anyway it looks like Leo will have someone to natter to!
Welcome.

Ali Tait
23-01-2010, 15:58
Agreed.Not to start a war again,but I'm getting a little deja vu...

Gazjam
24-01-2010, 19:04
I've heard that before..... ;)

twelvebears
27-01-2010, 09:34
For the record, I've had several off-line exchanges with both Ian and now Brent, who is the chap behind the upgrade options which prompted my original thread and the resulting 6 pages of posts.

I like to think I'm a sound judge of character, and am confident that both Ian and (possibly more importantly in the context of this thread) Brent are absolutely 'on the level', and are both genuine enthusiasts, with real skills in the field modding 'stuff'. Brent has chosen the make a living from it, Ian just does it for fun. So it would be nice if we could be rather more 'open-arms' than 'suspicious' of their motives. I know that some may be a bit twitchy from the recent Attack Of The Belts, but I don't think we have anything to worry about here.

Also I understand that Brent has registered with AOS, so hopefully he will start posting soon and I am very much looking forward to his contributions.

Gazjam
27-01-2010, 10:53
Yeah, it doesnt exactly sing the praises of AOS when someone comes on and gets pummelled like that.

What happened to innocent before presumed guilty?
Trollers and shillers will alway sbe found out, but in this case it would have been easy (and justified IMHO) for Ian and Brent just to say f*uck it, I'm off...

chrism
27-01-2010, 14:50
I think things have moved on a little fellers. Ian is really good at the DIY stuff and is a real asset to the DIY forum. He is currently contemplating and helping me with a Squeezebox linear supply solution.

I think that we are right to identify traders under disguise though as Pink Fish Media for example is struggling with them at the moment. Sorry mods did not intend to "take over" just offer opinion.

Regards

Chris

Rowemeister
17-02-2010, 16:35
Hi Guys

I've popped on here to back up Ian and say he is nothing to do with Audioupgrades other than being a customer.

Any questions about the upgrades we do I am happy to answer

cheers
Brent

captain
17-02-2010, 18:07
Any questions about the upgrades we do I am happy to answer

cheers
BrentIs it possible to squeeze a C2 clock and power supply in to my I-pod.

Thanks Kirk

Gazjam
17-02-2010, 20:28
I saw a dog once....

too random? :)

Rowemeister
18-02-2010, 08:29
Is it possible to squeeze a C2 clock and power supply in to my I-pod.

Thanks Kirk

Lol. Very funny Kirk ;)

Brent

captain
18-02-2010, 08:42
Hi Brent good to see you here.

Kirk

Rowemeister
18-02-2010, 08:47
Cheers Kirk.

There has been some intense debates on here, much more than I see on the DIY forums. Should be quite interesting especially has I have tweaked the 7510 upgrades - http://www.audioupgrades.co.uk/beresford7510.shtml

Brent

leo
22-02-2010, 20:27
Hi Brent,

Just wondered if you increase the analogue supply voltage when fitting the Burson op-amp? They don't seem to work that great with lower voltages

Cheers,
Leo

SimontY
22-02-2010, 20:33
I wonder how you'd define "great". I've only heard the Bursons on +-12V and they sounded wonderful to my ears!!!

Simon

leo
22-02-2010, 20:39
I wonder how you'd define "great". I've only heard the Bursons on +-12V and they sounded wonderful to my ears!!!

Simon

+/- 12v is 24v which is fine but the 7510 and 7520 uses just +10v

The design of the Burson likes to be ran at a higher voltage, 24v is the recommended min

SimontY
22-02-2010, 20:40
My bad - I kinda assumed it wouldn't be any lower than +-12V! I'd better let Brent answer that one then :-)

Simon

Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 20:40
Hi Brent,

Just wondered if you increase the analogue supply voltage when fitting the Burson op-amp? They don't seem to work that great with lower voltages

Cheers,
Leo

The Burson runs fine with +10V in the Beresford. I did extensive testing and not once did the sound suffer and always out performed 'std' type opamps. Well I tell a small fib, they sounded shut in with the standard regs at that voltage. That is why we don't fit them until the SPower regs have been fitted. We also advise a 15V psu as the SPowers require 4V headroom.

Brent

leo
22-02-2010, 20:54
Ok, thanks Brent

The linearity performance is supposed to improve with higher voltages , quite an interesting article http://www.sg-acoustics.ch/analogue_audio/ic_opamps/pdf/opamp_distortion.pdf

Rowemeister
22-02-2010, 21:07
Wow they had too much time on their hands lol.

Good article though.

Of course higher voltage rails would be better but we are currently restricted to 16V max. At some point we could add a second psu input to the dac and this feeds the opamps direct for a more perfect solution. We also do custom builds for people anyway.

Brent

leo
22-02-2010, 21:14
Yes, god knows how long it took testing that little lot, provides some interesting results though.

BTW I have heard the Bursons supplied with your S-powers set at +/15v ;) they was in an Arcam CDP , quite pleasant sounding combo tbh

Shanedudddy2
22-02-2010, 21:41
Do you think the Burson opamp would be good to use in the Caiman with the Murata 7805SR and the Murata 7812SR regulators? or not worth it?
Also much difference between those regulators and the S-powers??
Cheers

leo
22-02-2010, 22:01
The Bursons have a signature, quite warm imo in the stuff I've tried them in, not tried them in the Caiman dac though, I still have a dual one somewhere stashed away, IF I can find it I'll try it in the Caiman and compare it against a few op-amps.

The S-powers are totally different in design to the 7812SR, I'll leave the details to Brent because their his regs:)

UV101
22-02-2010, 23:01
I have 9 SPowers in my CD960 along with 4 Audiocom regs assigned to lower current duties.

I have to say I like SPowers. The seem to work perfectly in every application i've tried. The don't have any problem delivering current (hence the suggestion for the Squeezebox PSU for chrism). They give all the gains you'd expect from decent regualtion. Improved dynamics, background drop away and a general clean and sharpness about the sound. They work really well with Bursons and sharpen what can be quite a warm sound. The result is a nice balance. I've also tried them on a DOS in the CD63 which again was a nice combination.

On digital they just seem to work! There's lots of discussion around the internet about the filter chip on a TDA1541 (yawn cos I've said it before lol) I like to just give the filter its own SPower! Much better than NOS!!! imho

leo
22-02-2010, 23:11
There's lots of discussion around the internet about the filter chip on a TDA1541 (yawn cos I've said it before lol)

Me too (along with other things) but at times I feel some things often need repeating:whistle:

SimontY
22-02-2010, 23:35
Agreed that S Power on 7220 chip is a beast of an upgrade! As with any regulator on these current-hogging chips they will want a heatsink.

MAD
23-02-2010, 02:46
£270 for the upgrade? Ask Stanley to do it may be a good idea! Will they know better than Stan!!! :lol: There's are plenty second hand good DAC around £500- £600, and you can always get your money back!



Here is a link:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Beresford-TC-7520-CAIMAN-Dac-Level-4-upgrade_W0QQitemZ270515711531QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK _AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_CDPlayerSeparate s?hash=item3efbfe2e2b
Is funny that he starts by saying "why pay several hundred pound more for a new dac" then charges several hundred pounds to do the work.

UV101
23-02-2010, 08:00
Ask Stanley to do it may be a good idea! Will they know better than Stan!!!

I think you'll find that "they" is Rowemeister :lolsign:

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 08:50
Yes, god knows how long it took testing that little lot, provides some interesting results though.

BTW I have heard the Bursons supplied with your S-powers set at +/15v ;) they was in an Arcam CDP , quite pleasant sounding combo tbh

Glad you liked the sound ;) One note to make about Bursons is they take ages to burn in.

Brent

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 08:52
Do you think the Burson opamp would be good to use in the Caiman with the Murata 7805SR and the Murata 7812SR regulators? or not worth it?
Also much difference between those regulators and the S-powers??
Cheers

Those Murata will probably not run the Bursons without cooking. The Bursons do demand more current.

Thanks to everyone else adding their bit about the SPowers

Brent

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 08:58
£270 for the upgrade? Ask Stanley to do it may be a good idea! Will they know better than Stan!!! :lol: There's are plenty second hand good DAC around £500- £600, and you can always get your money back!

I don't just put a few parts in and sell for OTT prices on Ebay, every upgrade is tested over a few weeks testing different parts etc before I am happy. Also people don't realise I design all the pcbs on my website apart from the Burson opamps. Even the mains filters are my own build.

To give myself and the company more credibilty we will be over the next 24 months be designing and producing audio products (so I can too be a classed as a 'Designer' like Stan). I am currently working on a headphone amp to challenge the Slee Novo. The circuit is designed and it is now having the case work designed and literature written up

Brent

SimontY
23-02-2010, 09:14
I'd not even respond to trolls that can't muster up a question mark! :ner:

captain
23-02-2010, 09:16
£270 for the upgrade? Ask Stanley to do it may be a good idea! Will they know better than Stan!!! :lol: There's are plenty second hand good DAC around £500- £600, and you can always get your money back!
Say you do not have £500 or £600 to spend on a DAC but already have a Caimen then a upgrade path in stages seems like a good idea to me.

UV101
23-02-2010, 09:33
I think it would also be fair to say that a modded unit would be significantly better than a commercial unit of the same value. This is not just true of the Caiman. This is a sound principle. Ask anyone who has carried out their own upgrades. :cool:

Themis
23-02-2010, 09:42
"Significantly better" is not my point of view. "A little different" corresponds better as applied to modifications in general, as a sound principle. ;)

Now, considering a single (or multiple) modification of one particular unit (Caiman, for instance) only a careful side-by-side test can prove something. :cool:

SimontY
23-02-2010, 10:04
"A little different" is not the same planet as me when it comes to digital mods ;)

If it doesn't sound 3x as good as when you started you've not modified it enough yet!

UV101
23-02-2010, 10:13
"Significantly better" is not my point of view. "A little different" corresponds better as applied to modifications in general, as a sound principle. ;)

Now, considering a single (or multiple) modification of one particular unit (Caiman, for instance) only a careful side-by-side test can prove something. :cool:

Didn't we go through this yesterday in the "a good DAC....£3000" thread!!!??? EDIT- sorry was the smps vs linier psu debate

We are all entitled to our own opinion but to suggest that putting in the type of parts that the manufacturer would have liked to if cost was not an issue...........

I'm a believer, Marco's a believer, Leo's a believer even Stans a believer (he contributes to his own mods thread here)!!!! I'd be lost without my soldering iron!!!:lolsign:

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 10:22
I'm starting to believe :lolsign:

Brent

captain
23-02-2010, 10:34
I'm starting to believe :lolsign:

BrentMy belief helps you to pay off the mortgage :)

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 10:46
LOL

You certainly help ;)

Brent

Themis
23-02-2010, 12:49
I'm a believer, Marco's a believer, Leo's a believer even Stans a believer (he contributes to his own mods thread here)!!!! I'd be lost without my soldering iron!!!:lolsign:
Have you done any A/B test ? Preferably blind (not ABX tests, simple blind) ? Or are we simply exchanging abstract points of view ? ;)

The fact that you like modding is good for you, but why would this mean that the mods make the dac "significantly better" ?

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 13:12
More detail, more dynamics, more musical and less fatiguing are the normal attributes with upgrading parts, just like with upgrading your equipment. Remember lots of manufacturers use the same basic circuit / pcb over a few models and all they do is remove the cheaper caps etc and put in better ones. Like Stan does in the Caimen over the 7520, a simple upgrade but it works.

Brent

UV101
23-02-2010, 13:17
Hi Dimitri,

I think its clear we have a difference of opinion here which is fine!

All I would say is that there are a few of us mad or othrewise who would argue the benifits of apgrading anything and everything! Even Stan supports some upgrades to his own kit here on the forum. I've posted a few times, long and drawn out details on my own personal take on the principles of modification. I like to back any argument I make with fact myself.

If you are a non believer thats cool :cool: I just personally feel that there is significant scientific proof to substatiate the claims of these type of mods!

As for modded vs un modded this is my living room this morning!!!

Left 2 x Meridian 207 (1 std (on the floor) and 1 with heavily modded transport, a couple of SPowers on the filter & clock, Audiocom Reg2's on the TDA DAC and upgraded OpAmp (lm4562) on the DC blocking servo with buffer stage and DEEM filters removed)

On the right are 3 CD63's (even the one in the 67 case is a 63) in dffering states of tune. 1 std, 1 with LME49720HA and Transformer output + psu mods and 1 with a discrete offboard output stage and PSU mods.

I'd definately say any of the modded kit sounds better than the std versions by miles and miles!!

http://i497.photobucket.com/albums/rr332/Trunky1812/Marantz%20CD63%20Mods/IMG_5852Medium.jpg

Themis
23-02-2010, 13:33
Sorry Ian, I have tested tens of modern (unmodded) dacs in the range of the £200 to £2000. There's none which is "significantly better" once they were output-aligned. Only "small differences" exist.

I've done the tests with myself (of course) but also with several other listeners.

We simply have a problem of vocabulary :
- "Significantly better" can be easily (within a few seconds) be distinguished in almost any decent studio recording.
- "Slightly different" is very hard to test, especially blindly. Most of the times, even, it's almost impossible to distinguish for most listeners.

You see what I mean ? Try a simple blind test yourself, you will see. ;)

So, when I see someone saying that a mod can make things "significantly" better, it means that we don't use the same words to describe the same phenomenon.

Modding a CD player is something different. I don't know much the CD63 : so, I tend to believe what you say. And, according to my logical deduction, it means that the stock CD63 is a very poor player, indeed, if a mod can make it "significantly better" !!! :cool:

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 13:41
I have compared with a blind listening test with other people (5 people - 3 of whom had no clue the cost of either player) my CD63 against a non modded £5000 Marantz SA-7S1 and in not one department did the SA7 comeout on top. Everyone picked A or B and B got all the votes. B was the 63 by the way lol. Ok the upgrades on my own player are OTT but it shows what can be achieved.

Most if not all budget equipment simply does not allow the music to flow, it will have one note bass, ott upper mids and splashy treble when compared to much more expensive equipment (the source material needs to be quality of course). Upgrading the right areas will solve these issues.

Brent

Themis
23-02-2010, 13:46
Brent, can you tell me with which amp and speakers did you do this test ?

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 13:55
Yep

ATC SCM40 and SIA2-150 using £1200 Kimber/russ andrews interconnects and Tri-wired with Kimber 8TC and 4TC. All units had Kimber/russ andrews reference mains leads.

Items that do not colour the sound and allow through whats there. Recordings either sound brilliant when proper and very very poor when not.

Brent

Themis
23-02-2010, 14:01
Just curious : how did you manage to level the sources' outputs (inputs) with the SIA2 ? :scratch:

Rowemeister
23-02-2010, 14:06
They were pretty much identical to be honest, too close to be having to adjust anything. I forgot to mention the interconnects are attenuated -11db too.

Brent

Shanedudddy2
23-02-2010, 14:16
Themis: Just wondering where the Caiman rates on the dacs you have tested, modded and stock?

Hmmm just after I`ve put the Murata reg's in I`m tempted to go for the SPower regs...people think it's worthwhile or waste?

SimontY
23-02-2010, 14:17
Themis, no offence intended by asking this but have you heard any well-modified or otherwise high-end equipment? How stunning some equipment can be is not subtle and doesn't require blind-testing. You would be shocked by Brent's system, it's like putting a magnifying glass over the music and seeing every minute detail laid bare!!!!

giorgino
25-02-2010, 10:39
I suppose my take on this is probably twofold:

1) Principle of modding and upgrades
IMHO, the mod and the companies providing this service sits on the same spectrum as the after market accessory. If we truly believe that the signature and quality of a component does not need further improvement (or tuning) then none of us would be buying NOS valves, special fuses, power cables, interconnects, isolation platforms, racks and cones. The act of tweaking (if done correctly) changes the signature of a system's component to our personal taste. I think it is highly unlikely that the designer will have tested his CDP/amp/speakers with the same combination of "upgrades" that we buy so the idea of keeping faith with the designer's "ideal" IMHO doesn't wash.

2) Value of mods and service providers
Whether the answer is "yes" or "no" will probably be a personal thing. For sure the cost of the mod will not be recouped when you sell the item. For example, the Cayman + Level 4 mod will end up being near £500 if you add the postage costs. You can probably get more from selling an unmodded £500 DAC than selling a Cayman+Mod in the second hand market. So this is pretty poor value.
However, if you aren't a habitual box swapper (I know, how likely is that?), then it would make sense to optimise the kit you have. This is especially true if you are already happy with the sound of the kit you have and just want to "sculpt" the sound in a specific direction. The DIY mod route is great for this and if you have the skill and knowledge to do this, it's a great way to include as part of your hifi hobby. If you don't have the inclination or the aptitude to mod your equipment then it's reasonable to have someone do this for you and it's only fair that s/he be remunerated fairly.

I guess I'm somewhat sympathetic to the modding service idea. I've had my CD7 modded and have had my Carina "upgraded" with bybees and ERS cloth when it was built be the designer. I'd like to be able to mod my own equipment if I had the skill or inclination and see the price of the service people like Bryant charges as fair compensation for his time and experimentation. What really does gall me is shoving an existing item into a new case and badge without improving the components whatsoever and then charging an arm and a leg for it like these guys apparently did. (http://www.slashgear.com/lexicon-bd-30-reviewed-an-oppo-bdp-83-at-7x-the-price-1870267/)

SimontY
25-02-2010, 10:47
George,

I like your post a lot but, without trying to sound like too much of a Brent-fan, his upgrades don't always change the character a lot. As the circuit and DAC chip are generally left well alone and the power supplies are taken care of you tend to get more of the same. The same sonic character is kept but with FAR less grain and a MUCH more widely textured palette, deeper bass and a more relaxed and more fluid presentation.

Simon

ps - your link isn't working for me :(

giorgino
25-02-2010, 11:01
Edited... :)

SimontY
25-02-2010, 11:09
That Lexicon player is a bit of a shocker! The nice chassis and THX certification would cost quite a lot but the 7x price-hike is unforgivable. At least do something, SOMETHING inside!!

Simon

giorgino
25-02-2010, 12:53
I know...Crazy isn't it?! By comparison Bryant has done a total rebuild! :eek:


The same sonic character is kept but with FAR less grain and a MUCH more widely textured palette, deeper bass and a more relaxed and more fluid presentation.

Those qualities you mentioned, some people are willing to pay thousands for whether the upgrade is via an interconnect, upgrading to a new component or a modification of the actual component (eg Audiocom/Modwright).

(Keeping on topic) I guess the question is whether you can achieve at least the same results as the Caiman+Mod with a £500 DAC?

Gazjam
25-02-2010, 13:19
Hi Brent,
looked at your site RE: the upgrades..obvious theres some good work going in to them.

Can I ask, if I had to, say, send my Dac in for the upgrades and on listening they dont really work for me (for whatever reason), would I be able to get my Dac back to its original spec?


Thanks.
Gary.

(and this is a genuine question :))

Rowemeister
25-02-2010, 13:30
Hi Gary

Yes I don't mind doing that at all. All I would do is hold you to the postage if it came to that. All upgrades take 2 - 4 weeks to burn in so I could offer you a 30 day money back guarantee

It's not something I can offer all the time but I'm confident you will be very happy.

Regards
Brent

giorgino
25-02-2010, 13:59
Apologies Brent - Don't know why, I just somehow got it in my head you were Bryant! Bl**dy dyslexia! :doh:

I'll be sure to checkout your services whenever the occasion calls.

Best regards

Rowemeister
25-02-2010, 14:32
LOL I did chuckle to myself ;)

Brent (Bryant)