View Full Version : Sibilance in general -- what is the most likely cause?
magiccarpetride
06-06-2017, 18:20
Every now and then, I run into sibilance issues while playing LPs. It doesn't happen often, but it does tend to pop up once or twice during the regular listening week, prompting me to start thinking about what could be causing it.
For the most part, my cartridge/tonearm appears to be set properly, since I'm getting perfectly natural reproduction of the consonant 's', as it is being enunciated by the vocalists. But on a few occasions, it does get distorted. And it never fails to startle me. So my question is: given that there could be several reasons for this distortion, what, in your experience, is the most frequent cause? Is it the bad source (i.e. badly recorded vocals), or is it the worn LP, or is it the bad groove tracking? Or is it merely a not thoroughly cleaned vinyl?
Arkless Electronics
06-06-2017, 18:43
Distortion from worn stylus, knackered records etc mainly. It can be from tape overload in cases where they've not been able to fully control the recording (live etc) or been able to do a "Take 2" after re-setting levels.
Boyse6748
06-06-2017, 19:48
I would agree with what has already been said.... worn stylus, knackered Records. But it's worth having a check of alignment, VTA, anti skate etc just to make sure, even if some recordings play ok.
Recently installed a new Decca Gold and had a similar problem. Not knackered Records but VTA not setup correctly.
Has this just suddenly become apparent?
A good test record and careful setup should sort out what is wrong.
Peter
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walpurgis
06-06-2017, 20:08
Yes. I've found VTA to be a prime suspect with sibilance. Too little downforce can cause problems too.
Do you get similar sibilance on CD or any other source?
magiccarpetride
06-06-2017, 21:12
Do you get similar sibilance on CD or any other source?
Haven't checked.
magiccarpetride
06-06-2017, 21:13
I would agree with what has already been said.... worn stylus, knackered Records. But it's worth having a check of alignment, VTA, anti skate etc just to make sure, even if some recordings play ok.
Recently installed a new Decca Gold and had a similar problem. Not knackered Records but VTA not setup correctly.
Has this just suddenly become apparent?
A good test record and careful setup should sort out what is wrong.
Peter
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Almost all my LPs play fine. It is just that every now and then, on some older records, I get startled by the sibilance distortion.
My Rega RB300 tonearm doesn't have VTA adjustment...
Haven't checked.
Might be a good place to start before changing anything on your TT set up.
Would quickly confirm or rule it out as the source of the problem, as there are other things that can cause sibilance.
magiccarpetride
06-06-2017, 21:46
Might be a good place to start before changing anything on your TT set up.
Would quickly confirm or rule it out as the source of the problem, as there are other things that can cause sibilance.
Good point. Thanks.
Haselsh1
08-06-2017, 03:57
I used to get some sibilance many years ago which I found out was caused by a cartridge/arm mismatch. I had a low compliance moving coil in a low mass tonearm and as you would expect ran into tracking problems.
Ah sibilance, one of the most difficult things to get just right in HiFi, and one of the easiest things to make a sound fatiguing.
As others have said, often perceived sibilance is not actually a fault of the system but is actually on the recording.
However, if it is system related it can be down to a whole bunch of issues. If it is the speakers it can be symptomatic of a rising top end or of issues where the crossover blends the tweeter with the mid (low order crossovers do little to suppress out of band anomalies for example). If it is the turntable then it may be down to marginal matching between the arms effective mass and the cartridge compliance. It could also be down to the stylus profile or a rising top end in the cartridge. It could even be down to the phonostage.
tlscapital
10-06-2017, 09:27
As originator 'magiccarpetride' pointed out it's on some "older" records in some parts that that SssshFthSssshFth horrible thing manifest itself. All the previous are true (recording engineer mastering) and of course a phono set-up that is right and well set.
But as a collector of vintage 45's mainly, so out of the lower fidelity end (thank the Lord most are MONO !), I'm often tangle as to understand if it's about my phono setting, the recording mastering and/or the "poor" template mastering job and cheap vinyl, styrene used to press the record...
I'm about sure about my phono stage by now. Did trial with many different records (countries, pressing plants, materials and decades) when a record condition is an issue I can tell. When it's a recording factor the same and of course when the "plastic" material comes to be faulty. I use to collect old Jamaican records and that is a good "introduction" to all of this and that !
Harder to understand, but I know strongly pay attention to, is the template mastering job at the pressing plant. Well or not so well done, for some records you just can't escape the poor result if messed up at the pressing plant. Other records who were issued simultaneously in different pressing plant offer you the chance to compare how that factor alone comes in your listening experience...
walpurgis
10-06-2017, 09:34
If sibilance is noticed more on older records, perhaps that could be due to wear and (or) dirt deep in the grooves.
tlscapital
10-06-2017, 10:51
If sibilance is noticed more on older records, perhaps that could be due to wear and (or) dirt deep in the grooves.
OK, but I'd say the old records will give their best if read with the required equipment. And for that I can attest. Then music genres also can benefit from different phono set-ups or not... Vintage NOS record perfectly preserved can sound only "acceptable" on a top end phono set up and "alive and kicking" on a tweaked vintage single speaker pick-up.
Sibilance induced by wear YES, by dirt NO and by static YES. Dirt brings noise and deep groove residues of all species brings the odd "blow" or "woosh" noise/sound. One can learn many efficient specific ways to clean, fix and "unscratch" a record depending on the diagnostic to save a record from "undesirability" or "disregard" with an educated eye and experience.
walpurgis
10-06-2017, 11:00
Sibilance induced by wear YES, by dirt NO
Care to explain?
I've always found that the usual cause of sibilance is loose fitting false teeth.
'Wear' usually means a loss of the high frequencies. So would not cause sibilance, the opposite should happen.
Groove damage adds a sound additional to the music, it does not sound like sibilance. Likewise dirt or grime.
The quality of the recording is also highly unlikely to be the culprit. A poor press could be the problem but I'm not convinced. Sibilance is miss-tracking, so either the setting up is not optimal, or the present equipment is simply not good enough to accurately track some of the more demanding cuts. I suspect the latter in this case. Time to get your wallet out. ;)
Can be a lot of things or a mix of things, but azimuth is more often than not the biggest culprit
Seems a little detective work is in order. Can you duplicate the problem? Next time you are surprised by sibilance, back the needle up and see if it happens again. Can you make it happen? Does it happen in the same spot every time? Or even most often?
So let's say you have located a spot on a record that always causes sibilance, do you know someone else with a record player so you can try it at their house? Do they have the same problem? If so, then there you have it! Bad spot in the record, for whatever reason. But, if it plays on their system without issue, then we must conclude that something is amiss with your setup. If you can't adjust it out of existence, then perhaps it's time for a new cartridge?
Of course, if you cannot make it happen, if it seems to be a random happening, then perhaps it's static? A large truck passing by? Or Gremlins?
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tlscapital
10-06-2017, 15:34
Care to explain?
Dirt wil add noise but no distortion. Sibilance is a distortion of a recorded sound either at the recording take or in the process of the "carving" of the master template or in the "plastic" material used to press the record. And off course, as said before by a faulty set-up of your cartridge and/or tonearm.
Sibilance can be caused by mistracking stylus or too little VTF. Stylus profile can also be an issue. Occasionally recordings can be prone to sibilance if vocals are recorded poorly.
mysonicspace
15-06-2017, 15:48
Sorry to be a late comer to this thread, but I've just joined.
Personal experience has shown that VTA and correct bias are particularly important to reducing/eliminating sibilance. Of course the record deck must be perfectly level too. Having said this, there is absolutely no guarantee that every cartridge, even if brand new well set-up, would ever be able to track sibilance well. Relevant points are the tip mass of the stylus, cantilever compliance and tip profile (Shibata tips are very good at tracking high frequencies). As has already been mentioned, cartridge/arm mass compatibility is very important too. If the cartridge isn't brilliant at tracking sibilance, it doesn't mean it's a bad cartridge – it's just not one of it strengths.
Some records are cut with too much extreme HF making sibilance virtually untrackable by anything – especially if the record itself is a fraction off centre (which they often are), and the arm is swinging slightly.The cutting engineer should filter off extreme quantities of HF at the time of mastering to ensure the record can be played cleanly on the majority of decks.This is especially so at the end of side when the stylus is traveling at its slowest making tracking HF more difficult.
I hope this is of some use. George.
Sibilance is not just restricted to a vinyl source.
Don't think the OP has been back to say whether it is just on his TT.
Idlewithnodrive
17-06-2017, 14:58
Any TT based sibilance I've had and subsequently cured has always been down to either VTA (usually needs to be more 'tail down') or VTF (usually needs to be the odd 0.1 or 0.2 gm heavier).
Stratmangler
17-06-2017, 15:24
Sibilance is a distortion of a recorded sound
No it's not.
Sibilance occurs in real life.
Boyse6748
17-06-2017, 21:04
I fear not my friend...... nothing to to do with real life !
It's to do with set up [emoji736]
VTA is really important, as is is all other crucial adjustments.
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Stratmangler
17-06-2017, 21:15
I fear not my friend...... nothing to to do with real life !
It's to do with set up [emoji736]
VTA is really important, as is is all other crucial adjustments.
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Bollocks! :ner:
I heard sibilance just the other day.
Funnily enough it was my friend, saying the word "sibilance", and I noticed that it was, funnily enough, very sibilant.
It's got fuck all to do with anything else.
It's often picked up by the microphone when summat's being recorded ....
walpurgis
17-06-2017, 21:18
Makessss sssenssse to me. :)
Poor set up or other issues could introduce it when it is not there on the recording though? Obviously the effect is not happening for the same reason but it might be hard for a listener to distinguish between the two.
Listen to the lastest Lorde album. Massive recorded sibilance. Ruined by it really.
What were they thinking/hearing?
Stratmangler
18-06-2017, 11:02
Listen to the lastest Lorde album. Massive recorded sibilance. Ruined by it really.
What were they thinking/hearing?
Just had a brief listen (that's another 20 seconds of my life wasted), and I'm shocked that nobody picked up on it.
Whether or not it has ruined it is up for debate - I think not :eyebrows:
Pure Heroine is very good really. Melodramas level of sibilance just defies belief. I'll have to ignore it on anything above a Bluetooth speaker and even then it's bad.
Would a "De-Esser" help? Very popular in live sound, but then so is heroine.
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