general election

[hifinutt]

as june 8th approaches there are many issues one of the main ones for me is this news

Labour mayor of London Sadiq Khan has warned that future cuts to the Met Police are "unsustainable" and could make it harder to foil terror attack


He said if the Tories win the election the Met faced having to make savings of £400m, risking up to 12,800 officers.
"Fewer police officers mean we are in more danger," he told the BBC.
But his Conservative predecessor Boris Johnson said London police numbers "remained high" and changes to how they operated had made them more effective.
The foreign secretary told the BBC that it was "a bit rich" that Labour were attacking the Conservatives over policing and counter-terrorism, given that its leader Jeremy Corbyn had treated his opposition to anti-terror legislation over 30 years as a "badge of honour".

i can`t believe they can be thinking of more cuts ?

[Bigman80]

Theres no party out there for me. I would like a party that took the taxation of the rich from Labour, the hard Brexit stance of the Conservatives, legalisation of Cannabis from the Lib dems, free energy Initiatives of the the Green party and then id feel like a "party voter"

Maybe I'll start my own lol

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[RothwellAudio]

I would like a party that took the taxation of the rich from Labour, the hard Brexit stance of the Conservatives, legalisation of Cannabis from the Lib dems, free energy Initiatives of the the Green party and then id feel like a "party voter"
There's talk of a "progressive alliance" but there doesn't seem to be anything progressive about it to me. What would be progressive would be a system whereby people could vote on specific areas of policy, just like you want. People could "elect", or more like "select", the Tories for economic responsibilities, Labour for foreign policy decisions etc. The practicalities might get difficult where different areas of policy come into conflict with each other but there should be some way round it. Like you, I don't think we should have to buy into any one party for their entire agenda - why can't we cherry-pick the best from each of them? That would be progressive.

[Macca]

There's talk of a "progressive alliance" but there doesn't seem to be anything progressive about it to me. What would be progressive would be a system whereby people could vote on specific areas of policy, just like you want. People could "elect", or more like "select", the Tories for economic responsibilities, Labour for foreign policy decisions etc. The practicalities might get difficult where different areas of policy come into conflict with each other but there should be some way round it. Like you, I don't think we should have to buy into any one party for their entire agenda - why can't we cherry-pick the best from each of them? That would be progressive.

We had that quite recently when we voted for Brexit. Interestingly it is the 'progressives' who are dead against carrying out the wishes expressed by the majority in that vote.

irrelevant anyway. What happens in reality is that the various parties make promises they think will appeal to people. Once elected they discover (if they didn't already know) that those policies are unworkable and they quietly forget about them.

However given that they need to be seen doing something they come up with some poorly thought out crap on the hoof and implement that instead. Example: The last Labour governments policy of opening the borders to every piece of flotsam and jetsam in the world. (Decidedly not in their manifesto). The trouble with this approach is that the law of unintended consequences kicks in. Which takes us back to Brexit.

[struth]

Yes, but with a very small percentage, and not imo enough to make such a change. Especially as the folk who will most feel the repercussions, ie 16 and 17 year olds didnt get to vote

[Marco]

It's very simple, folks:

Either don't vote at all, or for anyone BUT the Tories!

For the first time in my life I've voted for Labour (via postal vote), as for me, despite his obvious faults and limitations [and let's remember that no politicians are perfect], Corbyn can help to bring us a little more peace and stability, instead of the trigger-happy warmongering antics of the Tories, which along with the actions of Trump (and those before him in the US), have failed miserably, and currently subjected us to terrorist attacks on an almost weekly basis!! :mental:

So....... It's time for CHANGE. Who knows, it might be for the better or worse, but let's face it, it would take something of monumentally EPIC proportions to be worse than what we have now :rolleyes:

Therefore, let's put an end to current Tory rule, and with it, their vulgar pandering to the best interests of the establishment, and together let's try to build a SAFER Britain. Don't let the Tories continue to PROVOKE the types of atrocities we've sadly recently all seen, and make the controlling elite of this world even richer (and more controlling).

Vote for CHANGE... We've had the ying, now it's time for some yang!!

:exactly:

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

We had that quite recently when we voted for Brexit. Interestingly it is the 'progressives' who are dead against carrying out the wishes expressed by the majority in that vote.

irrelevant anyway. What happens in reality is that the various parties make promises they think will appeal to people. Once elected they discover (if they didn't already know) that those policies are unworkable and they quietly forget about them.

However given that they need to be seen doing something they come up with some poorly thought out crap on the hoof and implement that instead. Example: The last Labour governments policy of opening the borders to every piece of flotsam and jetsam in the world. (Decidedly not in their manifesto). The trouble with this approach is that the law of unintended consequences kicks in. Which takes us back to Brexit.

Only the thick as shite voted for brexit so it should be ignored and reversed. There should never be another referendum on anything ever again.

[Arkless Electronics]

It's very simple, folks:

Either don't vote at all, or for anyone BUT the Tories!

For the first time in my life I've voted for Labour (via postal vote), as for me, despite his obvious faults and limitations [and let's remember that no politicians are perfect], Corbyn can help to bring us a little more peace and stability, instead of the trigger-happy warmongering antics of the Tories, which along with the actions of Trump (and those before him in the US), have failed miserably, and currently subjected us to terrorist attacks on an almost weekly basis!! :mental:

So....... It's time for CHANGE. Who knows, it might be for the better or worse, but let's face it, it would take something of monumentally EPIC proportions to be worse than what we have now :rolleyes:

Therefore, let's put an end to current Tory rule, and with it, their vulgar pandering to the best interests of the establishment, and together let's try to build a SAFER Britain. Don't let the Tories continue to PROVOKE the types of atrocities we've sadly recently all seen, and make the controlling elite of this world even richer (and more controlling).

Vote for CHANGE... We've had the ying, now it's time for some yang!!

:exactly:

Marco.

+1000!

[Macca]

Well I didn't get to vote on it on 1973 because I was only five.

We can't have children voting, situation's bad enough already, surely?

[Bigman80]

Only the thick as shite voted for brexit so it should be ignored and reversed. There should never be another referendum on anything ever again.
Thats me "thick as shite" then, Jez 😡

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[Bigman80]

It's very simple, folks:

Either don't vote at all, or for anyone BUT the Tories!

For the first time in my life I've voted for Labour (via postal vote), as for me, despite his obvious faults and limitations [and let's remember that no politicians are perfect], Corbyn can help to bring us a little more peace and stability, instead of the trigger-happy warmongering antics of the Tories, which along with the actions of Trump (and those before him in the US), have failed miserably, and currently subjected us to terrorist attacks on an almost weekly basis!! :mental:

So....... It's time for CHANGE. Who knows, it might be for the better or worse, but let's face it, it would take something of monumentally EPIC proportions to be worse than what we have now :rolleyes:

Therefore, let's put an end to current Tory rule, and with it, their vulgar pandering to the best interests of the establishment, and together let's try to build a SAFER Britain. Don't let the Tories continue to PROVOKE the types of atrocities we've sadly recently all seen, and make the controlling elite of this world even richer (and more controlling).

Vote for CHANGE... We've had the ying, now it's time for some yang!!

:exactly:

Marco.
I cant vote for Jeremy Corbyn, Marco. I like some of his ideas but hes a Hezbollah, Hamas and IRA sympathiser.

Teresa may is to blame for the cuts in policing etc

And the liberals want a revote on Brexit which is totally unacceptable.

As I said. No party really stands for what I think.

I like the idea of voting on specific policies but then when the left dont get their way, they start calling for revotes and start shit slinging and calling people names.



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[Arkless Electronics]

Thats me "thick as shite" then, Jez ��

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That's what I think of the 52% and I'm being polite there....

[Bigman80]

That's what I think of the 52% and I'm being polite there....
😂😂

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[Arkless Electronics]

I've just ended a long friendship with a couple I've known for years but hadn't seen for the last two because they are VERY pro brexit, told me they've voted Tory by post and have voted ukip before and appear to hate Muslims. I won't sit and breath the same air with such scum.

[Macca]

I'm another thicko as well.

It does occur to me that going around calling people stupid is perhaps not an especially smart thing to do. An interesting contradiction.

[Bigman80]

I've just ended a long friendship with a couple I've known for years but hadn't seen for the last two because they are VERY pro brexit, told me they've voted Tory by post and have voted ukip before and appear to hate Muslims. I won't sit and breath the same air with such scum.
Strong words, Jez. To be fair, im a firm believer in Brexit but for reasons other than immigration but lets not get into that because I cant stand typing long winded posts haha,

No room for racism in my presence either. So fair play.

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[Bigman80]

I'm another thicko as well.

It does occur to me that going around calling people stupid is perhaps not an especially smart thing to do. An interesting contradiction.
What stood out most is how visceral and hateful the "tolerant left wing" have become since the majority of the country voted democratically to leave the EU. I am believer in democracy and would have accepted the decision gracefully if the majority had voted to stay. Some might say the thickos were those who wanted to stay in the EU, BUT didnt turn up to vote.

Its all been very contradictory.

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[Arkless Electronics]

What stood out most is how visceral and hateful the "tolerant left wing" have become since the majority of the country voted democratically to leave the EU. I am believer in democracy and would have accepted the decision gracefully if the majority had voted to stay. Some might say the thickos were those who wanted to stay in the EU, BUT didnt turn up to vote.

Its all been very contradictory.

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I'm extremely hateful and intolerant towards the intolerant. It's the only good form of intolerance.

I spoke to an amazing number of leaver racists in the days after brexit who are so thick they were celebrating that it would "get rid of Muslim's"!! Pointing out that brexit is about Europe and it makes no difference to there being Muslim's in the country was usually met by a blank look....

[RothwellAudio]

Corbyn can help to bring us a little more peace and stability, instead of the trigger-happy warmongering antics of the Tories
Nice theory, but it wasn't the Tories who sent troops into Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ...


Only the thick as shite voted for brexit so it should be ignored and reversed. There should never be another referendum on anything ever again.
There are some serious economic reasons for leaving the EU. Membership doesn't seem to be bringing prosperity to Spain or Greece and there's a strong case to say that EU membership is a cause of their economic woes. I suppose the argument that only thickos are against EU membership means that Norway, Iceland and Switzerland are all populated by thickos. Isn't that a bit of an anti-foreigner attitude? A bit ironic.
And isn't the idea there should never be another referendum on anything ever again a bit anti-democratic?

[Bigman80]

I'm extremely hateful and intolerant towards the intolerant. It's the only good form of intolerance.

I spoke to an amazing number of leaver racists in the days after brexit who are so thick they were celebrating that it would "get rid of Muslim's"!! Pointing out that brexit is about Europe and it makes no difference to there being Muslim's in the country was usually met by a blank look....
😂😂 yes, unfortunately on both sides of that vote there was a certain amount of ignorance in both parties.

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[RothwellAudio]

What stood out most is how visceral and hateful the "tolerant left wing" have become since the majority of the country voted democratically to leave the EU.
I agree entirely.

Some might say the thickos were those who wanted to stay in the EU, BUT didnt turn up to vote.
Again, I agree.

[walpurgis]

Why vote for people that hate you? The Tories despise ordinary folk. Nothing of any decency ever comes from them.

[RothwellAudio]

The Tories despise ordinary folk.
This kind of sweeping generalisation about people and their motivation for going into politics doesn't really make for a convincing argument. You may think that the Tories have got all the wrong ideas about running the country or that they're incompetent or misguided but to say they despise ordinary folk goes beyond credibility.

[walpurgis]

to say they despise ordinary folk goes beyond credibility.

Seizing homes from pensioners. Withdrawing benefits from the disabled. The bedroom tax and so on. Of course they despise us! I'd cheerfully shoot the lot of them.

[walpurgis]

And anyway. What's the difference between a generalisation and a "sweeping generalisation"?

[Macca]

This kind of sweeping generalisation about people and their motivation for going into politics doesn't really make for a convincing argument. You may think that the Tories have got all the wrong ideas about running the country or that they're incompetent or misguided but to say they despise ordinary folk goes beyond credibility.

I agree. They might have no understanding of 'ordinary people' or any concept of what it is like to have no money, but the same is true for a lot of Labour Party members too.

As soon as someone starts frothing at the mouth and going on about 'evil' torys who 'hate the poor' and 'enjoy seeing them suffer' I just walk away. How can anyone imagine that raving on like that will convince anyone of anything? I used to argue politics with a couple of Trotskyites and they had a more sophisticated point of view than that. And that was when we were still at school!

Frankly the fact that Corbyn has a whole host of people exactly like that supporting him and even working for him puts me right off even considering voting for him.

[walpurgis]

Very tempted to say 'bollocks', but perhaps I shouldn't. :D

[RothwellAudio]

Seizing homes from pensioners. Withdrawing benefits from the disabled. The bedroom tax and so on. Of course they despise us! I'd cheerfully shoot the lot of them.
Maybe the Tories would see that as making the wealthy pay their share (BTW, people have been having to sell their homes to pay for care for years, haven't they?), targeting benefits at those needing them, and freeing up over-sized accommodation for large families in need. I'm not defending Tory policies, just saying they might have a different idea of what's the right thing to do. That doesn't prove they despise ordinary people. Isn't that an ad-hominem argument of the sort the forum doesn't allow?

[Macca]

You're quite welcome to say it's bollocks providing you can explain why it's bollocks.

[walpurgis]

You're quite welcome to say it's bollocks providing you can explain why it's bollocks.

Ah, but I didn't say it. I merely indicated that the thought had crossed my mind.

[struth]

Its the poorest and most vulnerable who will suffer the most as per.... Our caring society will be dismantled bit by bit, ad more govt controls over the things you take for granted.
I will be hit as will hundreds of thousands like me... maybe make that millions....

anyway, enjoy:)

I give in...I surrender to fate!!

[walpurgis]

Yes. We could end up basking in an ocean of Tory benevolence.

[Firebottle]

What I hate about politics is the division it always seems to bring up. Left/right, Labour/Tory, etc.

General Election time is particularly bad with the mud slinging :steam:

Why can't everyone work together to fix the country? It needs more business acumen and courageous decisions IMO.

[Arkless Electronics]

"People" who vote for the Tories know fine well that by doing so they are condemning those already at the bottom of the heap to an even worse plight. The disabled, elderly, unemployed, single mothers, carers etc all suffer when this scum is in power. If you can say "yeah, it will make life worse for those most in need but I'm alright Jack and I'll be a fiver a week better off so bollocks to the poor, the disabled etc, I'm voting Tory" then I think you are as low as a kiddy fiddler.

[RothwellAudio]

And anyway. What's the difference between a generalisation and a "sweeping generalisation"?

A touch of rhetorical embellishment :lol:

[Landloper]

The outpouring of hatred for the white working class people emanating from the Labour Party for some time now has resulted in my resolution not to even consider voting for them again in local and national elections until their attitude changes for the better. Some of the comments from leading members of the party are downright racist and snobbish and deserve to be held in the utmost contempt. I don't know which of the three main parties will take power on the 9th, but I feel the outlook for me and my family is bleak whichever party prevails. Excuse the gloom, perhaps General Election campaigns bring out the pessimist in me.

[Just out of interest - I live on a council estate and so far the only candidate that has bothered to knock our door to talk was the Tory one. One more day to go, wonder if the Labour and Liberal Democrat fellahs will slum it and put in an appearance!].

[Sherwood]

What I hate about politics is the division it always seems to bring up. Left/right, Labour/Tory, etc.

General Election time is particularly bad with the mud slinging :steam:

Why can't everyone work together to fix the country? It needs more business acumen and courageous decisions IMO.

I agree: we should all pull together and destroy the Raving Monster Loony Party! Including its strong and stable leader! What do you mean I've got the wrong party!

Geoff:scratch:

[RothwellAudio]

"People" who vote for the Tories know fine well that by doing so they are condemning those already at the bottom of the heap to an even worse plight. The disabled, elderly, unemployed, single mothers, carers etc all suffer when this scum is in power. If you can say "yeah, it will make life worse for those most in need but I'm alright Jack and I'll be a fiver a week better off so bollocks to the poor, the disabled etc, I'm voting Tory" then I think you are as low as a kiddy fiddler.
Yes, it all comes down to who's going to be better off. Unfortunately, I don't think there are many people who put the greater good ahead of their own. That's goes for Labour, Lib-Dem, UKIP etc. voters as much as for Tory voters.

[LC1979]

@ Arkless Electronics

I don't believe Labour has the right answers necessarily, but I agree with your sentiments. I think most Tory voters either don't think about the people at the bottom of the pile and how best to support them, or else they think that they deserve to be there and who cares anyway? On the other hand, lots of champagne socialists who pretend to care because it suits them to do so, but actually don't. So who am I to judge who people vote for!?

[Landloper]

Quite, Firebottle. Perhaps that is in large part the result of the rubbish party system where the elite rosettes bicker over who gets to run things for a few years. Will it be blue, red, or orange? Personally I think Direct Democracy may be the forward. We need politicians like we need cancer, let us govern ourselves like free people ought to.

[Marco]

Nice theory, but it wasn't the Tories who sent troops into Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ...


Indeed, but the party responsible for that misguided decision has a rather different type of leader now (with totally different values)! ;)

Let me reiterate my position...

I'm no Labour or Corbyn fanboy, and I also know there are huge flaws in Labour policies, as there are indeed in Tory ones, *BUT* the fundamental thing for me right now, with the grave situation we're currently facing, in respect of terrorism, which overrides ALL else, IMO, is that I'd rather have a caring, humanitarian PM in charge of the UK (despite his faults), clearly with pacifist tendencies and a willingness to negotiate with our current enemies, to try and achieve some form of peace, whilst divorcing ourselves as far possible from madcap scumbags, like Trump, than an uncaring, trigger-happy Trump acolyte at the helm, with warmongering tendencies and a overly keen propensity to push the 'red button', and with it consign us all to armageddon!

So, for virtually that reason ALONE (along with poking the establishment in the eye with a large stick, should Labour get in), I voted Labour. And I would urge all those currently undecided to do the same, for the same main reason: what currently exists as being the best compromise for creating a safer country for us all to live in.

Marco.

[prestonchipfryer]

I've just ended a long friendship with a couple I've known for years but hadn't seen for the last two because they are VERY pro brexit, told me they've voted Tory by post and have voted ukip before and appear to hate Muslims. I won't sit and breath the same air with such scum.

Hypocrisy is never a good thing.

[hifinutt]

Only the thick as shite voted for brexit so it should be ignored and reversed. There should never be another referendum on anything ever again.

a huge number of my friends voted for brexit , they are pretty educated , but I had many an argument with them as I voted remain

[Landloper]

No smutch on Leader Corbyn, but I think he'll be pi55ing in the wind with Islamic State. Just how does one negotiate with a genocidal fundamentalist outfit bent on establishing a World Calipihate? They wish to return as much of the world as they can get their medieval hands on to the 7th century and carry out genocide as they go. When enough of the earth is under their control humanity will enter the last days - Islamic State will suffer huge reverses but will defeat 'the armies of Rome' [their term]. At the moment the chief victims of Islamic State seem to be other Muslims - 200 million Shiite Muslims have been earmarked for subjection wherever they can be found along with what IS term 'the moderns' - that's any other human being not willing to live in their recreation of the brutal conditions of obtaining at the time of Mohammed's rule. Islamic State do not seek peace, they seek dominance over the face of the whole earth and the destruction of infidels and apostates culminating in a final battle between good [them] and evil [everyone else].

They are not another armed group with a political agenda that can be met or partially met with concessions to achieve a workable peace like the IRA or ETA. They are men with medieval millenarian minds whose application of violence is about pursuing the correct religious path to the Day of Judgement. There may be Jihadist groups who are amenable to trading concessions, but I don't think Islamic State will be among them.

[hifinutt]

Hypocrisy is never a good thing.

there is a huge amount of islamophobia at the moment , especially on facebook . we need to try and counteract it .

[Landloper]

Is disliking Islam Islamophobia, Phil? I don't like Islam because I think it is a rubbish religion, but not liking Islam is not the same as disliking Muslims [most of whom I do not know never having met them to form much of an opinion]. If someone entertains a prejudice against Muslims surely 'Muslimophobia' would be a more appropriate term.

[prestonchipfryer]

there is a huge amount of islamophobia at the moment , especially on facebook . we need to try and counteract it .

There is also a huge amount of hate for the Western way of living. But of course to many that is overlooked in the pursuit of appeasement.

[Sherwood]

Frankly I'm in the Christopher Hitchens school of thought when it comes to religion: a plague on all their houses!

People are free to choose whatever nonsense they want to believe with the simple caveat that they should keep it to themselves and not to try and force others to believe it.

However, to seek to blame a group for the actions of a few deranged evil creatures is indefensible!

Geoff

[Arkless Electronics]

There are much bigger fish to fry than worrying about terrorists. I'm infinitely more concerned about fighting poverty than terrorism. I'd wager that for every 1 killed by terrorists a hundred have died after taking their own lives cos they can't take the poverty... or the pain they're in whilst waiting for an operation, any longer.

Of course this is how The Daily Mair etc wants it's "readers" to think... 1000 die over a few months from curable disease, cos the NHS is so run down, and non of them gives a toss.... not even newsworthy. But if 1 "decent Christian white English person" is killed by a "Johnny foreigner darky Muslim" then it's hell to pay!

My Dad died whilst on a waiting list for a heart operation. If he had an untreatable illness that's one thing, but if the NHS had more resources he would have been seen sooner and may well have lived. People have become so brainwashed by the evil right whinge media that they're more concerned about a single person dying at the hands of a terrorist than a thousand like my Dad dying whilst waiting for an operation...

[Arkless Electronics]

There is also a huge amount of hate for the Western way of living. But of course to many that is overlooked in the pursuit of appeasement.

Cancelling that holiday in Tehran then are you?

[Pieoftheday]

Eany meany miney Moe, bugger ,labour, what can you do:cool:

[Marco]

Frankly I'm in the Christopher Hitchens school of thought when it comes to religion: a plague on all their houses!


Geoff, lets keep such inflammatory remarks off of the thread. Do remember that there are many members here with religious beliefs and faiths, myself included as a practising Catholic, who may find such comments extremely offensive.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Geoff, lets keep such inflammatory comments off of the thread. Do remember that there are many members here with religious beliefs, myself included as a practising Catholic, who may find such comments extremely offensive.

Marco.

I'd be more concerned about the beginning of the comment above... "eany meany miny moe..." yeah and how does that continue? Not that any of it makes sense...

[Marco]

I very much doubt that there were any racist connotations in James' post, Jez, but the remarks Geoff made previously were WAY out of order, especially for those here who are caring and considerate individuals, who practice their faith/religion in peace and in private.

Such remarks will not be permitted on AoS, under any circumstances, including you +1-ing them.

Marco.

[martian sunrise]

No smutch on Leader Corbyn, but I think he'll be pi55ing in the wind with Islamic State. Just how does one negotiate with a genocidal fundamentalist outfit bent on establishing a World Calipihate? They wish to return as much of the world as they can get their medieval hands on to the 7th century and carry out genocide as they go. When enough of the earth is under their control humanity will enter the last days - Islamic State will suffer huge reverses but will defeat 'the armies of Rome' [their term]. At the moment the chief victims of Islamic State seem to be other Muslims - 200 million Shiite Muslims have been earmarked for subjection wherever they can be found along with what IS term 'the moderns' - that's any other human being not willing to live in their recreation of the brutal conditions of obtaining at the time of Mohammed's rule. Islamic State do not seek peace, they seek dominance over the face of the whole earth and the destruction of infidels and apostates culminating in a final battle between good [them] and evil [everyone else].

They are not another armed group with a political agenda that can be met or partially met with concessions to achieve a workable peace like the IRA or ETA. They are men with medieval millenarian minds whose application of violence is about pursuing the correct religious path to the Day of Judgement. There may be Jihadist groups who are amenable to trading concessions, but I don't think Islamic State will be among them.

how about we stop selling arms to the saudis that fund/arm them? wait, that's good for industry, right? no, i have a better idea - lets cut funding to the people that find them. let's get rid of a few cops, while we are at it and take away our civil liberties - what so we have to hide?

[Sherwood]

Geoff, lets keep such inflammatory comments off of the thread. Do remember that there are many members here with religious beliefs, myself included as a practising Catholic, who may find such comments extremely offensive.

Marco.

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic in a succession of schools run by nuns and brothers and it is that experience which explains my current position. I think your sense of offence is unmerited: I am not saying that you do not have the rights to your beliefs, on the contrary. However, you would deny me the right to my belief that organised religion has been a major source of world conflict for millennia, with the three monotheist Abrahamic religions the main contributors to those ills. Look at the history of the Roman Catholic church in terms of corruption, torture, support for brutal regimes and wars waged on other religions. These crimes continue today and I am offended by them. Maybe this is not the forum to discuss them but whilst I defend the right of those who have a faith to practice their religion without impediment, I believe I have the right to express a contrary view. As the owner of this forum you have the power to deny me that voice but saying something that is disagreeable is not a basis in my opinion to deny someone the right to say it.

Geoff

[Bigman80]

No smutch on Leader Corbyn, but I think he'll be pi55ing in the wind with Islamic State. Just how does one negotiate with a genocidal fundamentalist outfit bent on establishing a World Calipihate? They wish to return as much of the world as they can get their medieval hands on to the 7th century and carry out genocide as they go. When enough of the earth is under their control humanity will enter the last days - Islamic State will suffer huge reverses but will defeat 'the armies of Rome' [their term]. At the moment the chief victims of Islamic State seem to be other Muslims - 200 million Shiite Muslims have been earmarked for subjection wherever they can be found along with what IS term 'the moderns' - that's any other human being not willing to live in their recreation of the brutal conditions of obtaining at the time of Mohammed's rule. Islamic State do not seek peace, they seek dominance over the face of the whole earth and the destruction of infidels and apostates culminating in a final battle between good [them] and evil [everyone else].

They are not another armed group with a political agenda that can be met or partially met with concessions to achieve a workable peace like the IRA or ETA. They are men with medieval millenarian minds whose application of violence is about pursuing the correct religious path to the Day of Judgement. There may be Jihadist groups who are amenable to trading concessions, but I don't think Islamic State will be among them.
Thats pretty much spot on and the reason I think Jeremy Corbyn is a wasted vote.

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[Bigman80]

There are much bigger fish to fry than worrying about terrorists. I'm infinitely more concerned about fighting poverty than terrorism. I'd wager that for every 1 killed by terrorists a hundred have died after taking their own lives cos they can't take the poverty... or the pain they're in whilst waiting for an operation, any longer.

Of course this is how The Daily Mair etc wants it's "readers" to think... 1000 die over a few months from curable disease, cos the NHS is so run down, and non of them gives a toss.... not even newsworthy. But if 1 "decent Christian white English person" is killed by a "Johnny foreigner darky Muslim" then it's hell to pay!

My Dad died whilst on a waiting list for a heart operation. If he had an untreatable illness that's one thing, but if the NHS had more resources he would have been seen sooner and may well have lived. People have become so brainwashed by the evil right whinge media that they're more concerned about a single person dying at the hands of a terrorist than a thousand like my Dad dying whilst waiting for an operation...
So you voted remain in EU which means as many people that wish to, can come and live here and put growing pressure on a system that already cant handle the amount of people who need its services.

Poverty has grown at a rate only matched by immigration.



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[Macca]

how about we stop selling arms to the saudis that fund/arm them? wait, that's good for industry, right??

Right. You stop selling weapons to the Saudis, someone else sells them instead. All you achieve is to put a load of people on the dole for no net benefit.

In any case it is unlikely that any weapons sold to the Saudis end up with IS. It is high tech stuff, not knackered Isuzu jeeps with what look like Russian made 30 mm cannons mounted on them. They didn't get any of their kit directly from the manufacturers, or any government. It is clearly all old and third party sourced. They would seem to almost certainly get funding from Saudi Arabia but that could come from a number of parties, 'The Saudis' are a pretty big grouping with their own factions and intrigues, as with any country. The other way they were getting funding was by selling oil produced in their captured territories.

The problem is that anything you do with this situation affects every facet of everything else. There are no simple solutions - if there were they would have been deployed already.

[prestonchipfryer]

Cancelling that holiday in Tehran then are you?

That's what you do very well, get personal when things don't go your way. It's pathetic.

[Bigman80]

there is a huge amount of islamophobia at the moment , especially on facebook . we need to try and counteract it .
Islamophobia

Definition:

A "lefty" word for acknowledging that Muslim extremists are actually followers of a specific religion and are committing atrocities, indiscriminately, against innocent people.

No dig at you hifinutt, it just aggravates me that if you dare to call these people what they are, you're labelled islamophobic.

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[Arkless Electronics]

I very much doubt that there were any racist connotations in James' post, Jez, but the remarks Geoff made previously were WAY out of order, especially for those here who are caring and considerate individuals, who practice their faith/religion in peace and in private.

Such remarks will not be permitted on AoS, under any circumstances, including you +1-ing them.

Marco.

I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms Marco and detect rather a lot of hypocrisy there. I can see right whingers and racists probably hating my comments, just as I do those from card carrying Tories.. but I would guess you are in a very small minority as a devout religious person... and that a majority are probably anti religion. You allow Tories to be called worse than shit (quite rightly!), make no comment about anti Muslim comments so long as they don't go over a certain boundary... but when ALL religion is criticised, by inference including your own, the barriers of censorship come slamming down and the doors to free speech are firmly slammed.
Yeah yeah you personally own the web site and you'll do whatever the feck you like and if we don't like it we know where we can shove it etc etc.... It needed saying though IMHO

[martian sunrise]

Right. You stop selling weapons to the Saudis, someone else sells them instead. All you achieve is to put a load of people on the dole for no net benefit.

In any case it is unlikely that any weapons sold to the Saudis end up with IS. It is high tech stuff, not knackered Isuzu jeeps with what look like Russian made 30 mm cannons mounted on them. They didn't get any of their kit directly from the manufacturers, or any government. It is clearly all old and third party sourced. They would seem to almost certainly get funding from Saudi Arabia but that could come from a number of parties, 'The Saudis' are a pretty big grouping with their own factions and intrigues, as with any country. The other way they were getting funding was by selling oil produced in their captured territories.

The problem is that anything you do with this situation affects every facet of everything else. There are no simple solutions - if there were they would have been deployed already.

you're right , it's not simple, but the cops that are now on the dole could have helped fight the terrorism

[Arkless Electronics]

Islamophobia

Definition:

A "lefty" word for acknowledging that Muslim extremists are actually followers of a specific religion and are committing atrocities, indiscriminately, against innocent people.

No dig at you hifinutt, it just aggravates me that if you dare to call these people what they are, you're labelled islamophobic.

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Oh more anti religion ranting by a right whinger.... but no doubt ok cos it doesn't mention Christians....

[Sherwood]

how about we stop selling arms to the saudis that fund/arm them? wait, that's good for industry, right? no, i have a better idea - lets cut funding to the people that find them. let's get rid of a few cops, while we are at it and take away our civil liberties - what so we have to hide?

As much as I hate the Tories and all they stand for, previous Labour governments have also cynically sold arms to grisly regimes under the pretext of "doing business". Whilst there are things about Corbyn that concern me, he impresses with his resolute consistency to negotiated peace solutions and his opposition to investment in unusable nuclear weapons.

Geoff

[Bigman80]

Oh more anti religion ranting by a right whinger.... but no doubt ok cos it doesn't mention Christians....
Hahaha, im no right wingher, Jez. Im a free thinking human, who decides for himself what is right and wrong. I have no political alliance or any religious bias.

Its not anti religion either, I havent got anything against any religion. I have a problem with terrorists who justify their actions with religion. Its not anti religion to declare that ISIS are practising muslims matey.

I dont believe in religion at all. None whatsoever and I dont vote by party. I vote by which policies fit my view at the time. I voted liberal democrat for the early pat of my voting life, then Labour, UKIP and also tories last time out. I haven't decided on this one yet.

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[Macca]

you're right , it's not simple, but the cops that are now on the dole could have helped fight the terrorism

Well they are unlikely to be on the dole. They would all have been retirements or voluntary redundancy with generous terms. Index linked pension, don't forget.

If they are not ready to retire early they can get work in the private security sector, and I don't mean working the doors on a pub. Although I've known a few do that as they liked the hours.

According to the Chief Constable of Staffordshire they have replaced coppers who were only doing admin with civilian workers and brought in new tech that means they can spend more time out 'on the street'. So they are providing the same level of cover as they were before the reduction.

Whether that has been replicated across all the other forces I don't know.

[Landloper]

I have no problem with stopping the sales of weapons to the Saudis, or with providing sufficient means for effectively opposing the known evil of armed Jihadi radicalism, Richie. Anything that helps dismantle the apparatus of Islamic terror that the imbeciles in Westminster have permitted to establish itself among us is both necessary and welcome.

[Marco]

I was brought up as a Roman Catholic in a succession of schools run by nuns and brothers and it is that experience which explains my current position. I think your sense of offence is unmerited: I am not saying that you do not have the rights to your beliefs, on the contrary. However, you would deny me the right to my belief that organised religion has been a major source of world conflict for millennia, with the three monotheist Abrahamic religions the main contributors to those ills. Look at the history of the Roman Catholic church in terms of corruption, torture, support for brutal regimes and wars waged on other religions. These crimes continue today and I am offended by them. Maybe this is not the forum to discuss them but whilst I defend the right of those who have a faith to practice their religion without impediment, I believe I have the right to express a contrary view. As the owner of this forum you have the power to deny me that voice but saying something that is disagreeable is not a basis in my opinion to deny someone the right to say it.


I have nothing against reasonable criticism, Geoff, but you can do so without uttering stuff like this, which is what I'm objecting to and insisting that there is no more of:


Frankly I'm in the Christopher Hitchens school of thought when it comes to religion: a plague on all their houses!


One could take that as you wishing such on me, and/or any other peace-loving, kind and considerate Christian (or person of faith), who wishes no harm on anyone. So what I'm saying is be reasonably critical of religion if you wish, but refrain from making any such outrightly offensive/threatening remarks as the above in future.

That also applies to you, Jez. And that means I don't want any more back chat on the matter from either of you, which if offered, will simply be deleted. Now let's get back to the thread topic.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hahaha, im no right wingher, Jez. Im a free thinking human, who decides for himself what is right and wrong. I have no political alliance or any religious bias.

Its not anti religion either, I havent got anything against any religion. I have a problem with terrorists who justify their actions with religion. Its not anti religion to declare that ISIS are practising muslims matey.

I dont believe in religion at all. None whatsoever and I dont vote by party. I vote by which policies fit my view at the time. I voted liberal democrat for the early pat of my voting life, then Labour, UKIP and also tories last time out. I haven't decided on this one yet.

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You should listen to "With god on our side" by Bob Dylan.

The KKK claim to be devout Christians. You probably wouldn't tar all Christians with the same brush though... What about the IRA? Catholics to a man. So are all Catholics a problem?
Islam is the worlds biggest religion. If they were all out to get us we'd know about it! It is a few extremist psychopaths who commit these atrocities and very wrong to hate all Muslims! Many of the medical staff fighting to save the lives of terrorist victims are Muslim!

[martian sunrise]

Isn't that what Corbyn is proposing?

[edit - tried to quote John. Oops]

[Marco]

I disagree with you in the strongest possible terms Marco and detect rather a lot of hypocrisy there. I can see right whingers and racists probably hating my comments, just as I do those from card carrying Tories.. but I would guess you are in a very small minority as a devout religious person... and that a majority are probably anti religion. You allow Tories to be called worse than shit (quite rightly!), make no comment about anti Muslim comments so long as they don't go over a certain boundary... but when ALL religion is criticised, by inference including your own, the barriers of censorship come slamming down and the doors to free speech are firmly slammed.
Yeah yeah you personally own the web site and you'll do whatever the feck you like and if we don't like it we know where we can shove it etc etc.... It needed saying though IMHO

See my post #69. I was referring specifically to this post from Geoff, and the "plague on all their houses" remark. Nothing else.


Frankly I'm in the Christopher Hitchens school of thought when it comes to religion: a plague on all their houses!


I don't think I'm being at all unreasonable in taking offence to someone (albeit indirectly) wishing such a thing on me, simply because I'm religious! ;)

Anyway, as I said, let's leave it there. Indeed, I insist on it.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

You should listen to "With god on our side" by Bob Dylan.

The KKK claim to be devout Christians. You probably wouldn't tar all Christians with the same brush though... What about the IRA? Catholics to a man. So are all Catholics a problem?
Islam is the worlds biggest religion. If they were all out to get us we'd know about it! It is a few extremist psychopaths who commit these atrocities and very wrong to hate all Muslims! Many of the medical staff fighting to save the lives of terrorist victims are Muslim!
Thats very naive Jez, the KKK weren't killing in the name of religion. They are white supremacists. You dont have to be Christian to join the KKK. you have to be racist.

The IRA also didnt act through religious beliefs. They wanted British rule to end in Ireland and wanted to unite Ireland. They were paramilitary. Not terrorists.

Also, claiming that KKK are Christians and IRA are Catholics, doesn't make you anti -christian or anti-catholic or a "phobe" shall we say.

My point being, if you refer to a terrorist as a muslim which is correct, they are followers of Islam, read the Quran, pray at a mosque, pilgrimage to Mecca etc

you get called an Islamophobe.

My Ire is that the Leftys label every one as a dissenter if you dont see the world as they do. The Left, are the new right wing.

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[Arkless Electronics]

See post #69. I was referring specifically to this post from Geoff, and the "plague on all their houses" remark. Nothing else.



I don't think I'm being at all unreasonable in taking offence to someone (albeit indirectly) wishing such a thing on me, simply because I'm religious! ;)

Anyway, as I said, let's leave it there. Indeed, I insist on it.

Marco.

Fairy snuff :cool:

[Landloper]

Its not anti religion to declare that ISIS are practising muslims matey.

Agreed, the Islamic in Islamic State means what it says. They do not represent all Muslims or even a majority of Muslims, but they are Muslims, only with a particularly reactionary take on Islam.

[Arkless Electronics]

Thats very naive Jez, the KKK weren't killing in the name of religion. They are white supremacists. You dont have to be Christian to join the KKK. you have to be racist.

The IRA also didnt act through religious beliefs. They wanted British rule to end in Ireland and wanted to unite Ireland. They were paramilitary. Not terrorists.

Also, claiming that KKK are Christians and IRA are Catholics, doesn't make you anti -christian or anti-catholic or a "phobe" shall we say.

My point being, if you refer to a terrorist as a muslim which is correct, they are followers of Islam, read the Quran, pray at a mosque, pilgrimage to Mecca etc

you get called an Islamophobe.

My Ire is that the Leftys label every one as a dissenter if you dont see the world as they do. The Left, are the new right wing.

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Utter tosh and you know it. All the above claim to have "god on their side" and use religion as a justification for their actions. Try telling the victims of IRA atrocities that the IRA are not terrorists. Were the French Resistance terrorists or freedom fighters? I guess the Nazi's may give a different answer to the French population.... The KKK quote from the bible and go to church every Sunday.. not to mention carrying burning crosses! Throughout history evil men have tried to twist religion into giving them an excuse for their atrocities! The deaths of millions in the first crusades came about because the then pope thought he was losing his popularity and the churches coffers were running low.. so he made up a lie that the holy lands were being over run by Muslims and they were killing and raping Christians in the area! Eventually the Muslims did do just this... in retaliation for Christian atrocities committed by crusaders!

Oh and although not all brexiters are racist.... all racists are brexiters! A bit like not all Muslims are terrorists but all ISIS jihadis are Muslim eh?

[Bigman80]

Utter tosh and you know it. All the above claim to have "god on their side" and use religion as a justification for their actions. Try telling the victims of IRA atrocities that the IRA are not terrorists. Were the French Resistance terrorists or freedom fighters? I guess the Nazi's may give a different answer to the French population.... The KKK quote from the bible and go to church every Sunday.. not to mention carrying burning crosses! Throughout history evil men have tried to twist religion into giving them an excuse for their atrocities! The deaths of millions in the first crusades came about because the then pope thought he was losing his popularity and the churches coffers were running low.. so he made up a lie that the holy lands were being over run by Muslims and they were killing and raping Christians in the area! Eventually the Muslims did do just this... in retaliation for Christian atrocities committed by crusaders!

Oh and although not all brexiters are racist.... all racists are brexiters! A bit like not all Muslims are terrorists but all ISIS jihadis are Muslim eh?
That kind of sweeping statement only goes to show that you are just trying to steam roller the debate, Jez. Im afraid you are wrong.

ISIS are a terror group trying to bring in their religious beliefs by unsolicited violence.

The Nazis were Fascists who blamed the Jews for the lack of work when the soldiers returned from WW1

The IRA were loyalists trying to remove British rule in Ireland

The KKK are racists who believed non whites should be irradicated. Also Fascists by definition.

ISIS are RELIGIOUS Fanatics.

Im afraid your statement is "UTTER TOSH"

You cant argue with facts. You are suggesting because KKK are mostly Christians (not all) that they are the same as ISIS, which is absolutely ignorant and uninformed. Its also an affront to not understand the reasons why people have been casualties to the various groups atrocities.

Your little quip on Brexit is clever though. Albeit short sighted.

Also, it kind of give the game away when they refer to themselves as a "Radical islamic group"

Anyway. Im off to Greece in a few hours so I'll be signing off from this debate.


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[Landloper]

QUOTE=martian sunrise;871931]Isn't that what Corbyn is proposing?

[edit - tried to quote John. Oops][/QUOTE]

The difficulty I have with the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is that he asks us to believe that it is possible to negotiate peace with those who want war, such as Islamic State, Richie. I can't see how this can be compassed. Jihadism is not monolithic and I wouldn't rule out parley altogether, but clearly some elements of it are driven by an apocalyptic vision which has absolutely no interest in an accommodation.

[Landloper]

'Not all Brexiters are racist but all racists are Brexiters'.

No, Dianne Abbot definitely campaigned, along with the Tory government and the majority of the elite, for Remain.

[Barry]

'Not all Brexiters are racist but all racists are Brexiters'.

No, Dianne Abbot definitely campaigned, along with the Tory government and the majority of the elite, for Remain.

Uh? :scratch:

[martian sunrise]

The difficulty I have with the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition is that he asks us to believe that it is possible to negotiate peace with those who want war, such as Islamic State, Richie. I can't see how this can be compassed. Jihadism is not monolithic and I wouldn't rule out parley altogether, but clearly some elements of it are driven by an apocalyptic vision which has absolutely no interest in an accommodation.

i agree with you about it not being possible to negotiate peace. so how does one deal with it? these nutjobs need guns and money to operate. corbyn is proposing to take that away from them. the zombie thatcher, on the other hand, believes that giving mi5 free reign to spy on one and all is the answer, whilst dealing with the biggest funder of the madness. i won't mention police cuts again...

i fail to understand why not wanting war is a bad thing.

[Marco]

Anyway. Im off to Greece in a few hours so I'll be signing off from this debate.


Quite right. Too many deeply entrenched (and intolerant) opinions (on all sides), as per usual when these subjects come up. Enjoy your holiday, mate! :cool:

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Quite right. Too many deeply entrenched (and intolerant) opinions (on all sides), as per usual when these subjects come up. Enjoy your holiday, mate! :cool:

Marco.
Nobody is 100% correct, Marco. Its all belief and entrenchment as you say. As long as no-one falls out about it then its all good.

Cheer pal! 28c in Greece tomorrow. Should melt any stress away nicely 😎


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[walpurgis]

Have a nice hol Oliver! :D

[Marco]

Nobody is 100% correct, Marco. Its all belief and entrenchment as you say. As long as no-one falls out about it then its all good.


Indeed. There's simply no reason for anyone to fall out, as everyone is entitled to their views. As long as things don't get personal, which is why Geoff's earlier post was moderated, and tolerance is shown towards those holding opposing beliefs, then we can all have a good robust debate.


Cheer pal! 28c in Greece tomorrow. Should melt any stress away nicely ��


Enjoy, and munch some lovely Lamb Kleftico or Souvlaki for me! :)

Marco.

[brian2957]

Nobody is 100% correct, Marco. Its all belief and entrenchment as you say. As long as no-one falls out about it then its all good.

Cheer pal! 28c in Greece tomorrow. Should melt any stress away nicely ��


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Enjoy your holiday Oliver :)

[Bigman80]

Thanks guys!!!

love a bit of lamb Kleftico, souvlaki too.



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[Marco]

Seizing homes from pensioners. Withdrawing benefits from the disabled. The bedroom tax and so on. Of course they despise us! I'd cheerfully shoot the lot of them.

Not sure about shooting them, but all of the above (and plenty more one could mention) ably proves that the Tories care little for the needs of ordinary people, which is why we need to get them out. Their cruel, self-serving policies speak for themselves.

Therefore, quite simply, regardless of anything else, I'm all for ANY party who puts peace before war, and spends more on the NHS, our police force (to keep us safe on our streets) and helping all of the above live comfortable and worthwhile lives, as well as tackles the disgraceful levels of homelessness here, in what is supposed to be one of the wealthiest countries in the world, than on bombs!

Whatever the Tories are apparently 'good at', out with of that, pales into insignificance.

Marco.

[Macca]

Corbyn is dangerously naïve, totally inexperienced and not very bright.

Thinks you can negotiate with Islamic fundamentalists. Thinks the IRA were justified in putting bombs in shopping centres.

No way on this earth would I support someone like that.

So, for me, still a choice between UKIP and Conservative or not voting. In a Labour safe seat so voting for either is pointless, except to add to the general tally of votes of support.

Since I consider Brexit to be the most crucial issue I might vote UKIP just to keep the pressure up on whichever government is elected. Make sure they see it through.

[tapid]

Digby Jones, labour life peer and former head of cbi ? has just remarked on lbc that Corbyn s living in La La land with his
manifesto, rightly in I.M.O. The country s already spending 60, 70 billion ? more than its getting back in v.a.t receipts and Mr j
though nice man that his would clearly make the situation far, far, worse !

[Macca]

I agree, except for the bit about him being 'nice.' He's a self-important old fool.

If he spent half of what he wants to spend we would be in a sovereign debt crisis within a year.

Except of course we can just take all the money we need off the multitudes of rich people and the big corporations; it really is so simple it is a wonder no-one has ever thought of it before...

[Marco]

Corbyn is dangerously naïve, totally inexperienced and not very bright.


I think we'll just have to 'agree to disagree' ;) And May is about as "bright" as the colour of her bathwater....

It's not a case of negotiating directly with ISIS, of course that would be fruitless, but rather imposing diplomatic measures/sanctions in the right areas, which hopefully will result in subduing their actions.

There are things that can be done out with of bombing the hell out of their homeland, and killing 1000s of innocent people in the process, that may reduce the type of 'reprisals' we're seeing now.

As I said, current policy isn't working, so we need change, and if the Tories remain in power after the election, they'll do 'hee-haw' different to what they're doing now, with the same consequences - and that situation is untenable.

Marco.

[Marco]

Except of course we can just take all the money we need off the multitudes of rich people and the big corporations; it really is so simple it is a wonder no-one has ever thought of it before...

Well, it would help if policies were put in place to reduce their current, rather vulgar 'perks'! That would be a start, at least.

ANYTHING that, for a change, prioritises the needs of the common man, ahead of those of the 'toffs' and elite, is a step in the right direction, in terms of creating a fairer and more equal society, and the only party currently capable of winning the election, and who would take steps to do that, is Labour.

Btw, how you could even consider voting UKIP, is beyond me, as they're ostensibly a watered-down, superficially more palatable version of the NF! Racists should never be in power in our country :nono:

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I see Diane Abbott has been 'sidelined': http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-07/diane-abbott-to-be-replaced-as-shadow-home-secretary-due-to-ill-health/

Best thing from Corbyn's point of view I'd say, to me she looks a clueless and hideous embarrassment.

[Marco]

Agreed. There must be someone else in the party better equipped to fill that position than her.

Marco.

[tapid]

Andrew Neil s vigil ( pray for Diane ) not worked then ?. Though to be fair there could be more in this
than we realise at the moment.

[farflungstar]

There are much bigger fish to fry than worrying about terrorists. I'm infinitely more concerned about fighting poverty than terrorism. I'd wager that for every 1 killed by terrorists a hundred have died after taking their own lives cos they can't take the poverty... or the pain they're in whilst waiting for an operation, any longer.

Of course this is how The Daily Mair etc wants it's "readers" to think... 1000 die over a few months from curable disease, cos the NHS is so run down, and non of them gives a toss.... not even newsworthy. But if 1 "decent Christian white English person" is killed by a "Johnny foreigner darky Muslim" then it's hell to pay!

My Dad died whilst on a waiting list for a heart operation. If he had an untreatable illness that's one thing, but if the NHS had more resources he would have been seen sooner and may well have lived. People have become so brainwashed by the evil right whinge media that they're more concerned about a single person dying at the hands of a terrorist than a thousand like my Dad dying whilst waiting for an operation...
+1000

[Marco]

+1001... I missed that post earlier.

Whilst the threat of terror attacks increases every day, and something drastically needs doing to address that, first and foremost, we need to properly support and look after our own citizens, many of whom have been badly neglected and severely let down by 'the system'.

And like Jez says, 1000s are dying all the time from such neglect, whilst many more remain as suffering victims, enduring an existence that couldn't realistically be described as a 'life' - and the biggest crime of all is how many of us (especially some of the working classes, who seem to have forgotten their roots) have become almost completely blasé to it, too concerned with looking after No1.

That's one of the reasons why I voted Labour, despite Corbyn's many failings, as having a humanitarian and essentially decent human being at the helm, instead of that thing that's there now, would not only be good for making Britain a safer place to live in, but just for a change, putting people first before profit.

Marco.

[Infinitely Baffled]

You may think that the Tories have got all the wrong ideas about running the country or that they're incompetent or misguided but to say they despise ordinary folk goes beyond credibility.

Sounds like a fair point ... but then you notice that many of these "wrong ideas" have a pattern. They specifically pander to the comfort, security and quality of life of the already secure and wealthy. People like them, in other words. Of course, that shouldn't be a surprise - that's what Conservatism means. You nurture the wealth-creators (in other words the powerful, the wealthy and the talented) in the hope that they will make a wealthy country and the benefit will - eventually - be felt by everyone ... a bit ... maybe.

Is this meant to be a fit political philosophy for the 21st century? And yet the whole country seems to be in thrall to the Conservatives. It's like some kind of delusional love-affair. It's turkeys voting for Christmas all over again. People coo at Teresa May on their TV screens and think she is smart and reliable, and they chuckle at Boris Johnson, thinking he is clever and funny. They are not! These people are shameless opportunists. They have - and always have had - an eye on the main chance and would do anything to manoeuvre themselves into a position of power and influence, no matter what "principles" of their own they have to ditch to achieve it.

So yes, maybe it is an overstatement to say they despise ordinary folk, but it is certainly clear that they are indifferent to them. Conservatism is about one thing only: maintaining a societal structure that has them on top.
IB

[Marco]

....which is why ordinary folk, who've succumbed to the Tory media brainwash, need to 'wake up and smell the coffee' NOW, and force a refocussing of the primary directive, by voting for the only party (Labour) liable to eradicate this odious austerity, created by the Tories, which so many have been suffering under for years, and who will put into effect that necessary change, which this time will be of benefit for the many, not just the privileged few.

Good post, Gary :)

Marco.

[tapid]

But just imagine if they were presiding ( is that a word ) over 3 million unemployed, folks would
go barmy ! Instead there s record employment and lowest unemployment for 40 years ?. Surely
its not as bad as some peeps say on here ?. Baby boomers from post war are retiring now, this is bound
to put huge pressures on nhs. People new this 30 years ago it was called a ticking time bomb, but little preparation
seems to have been put in place over those years ! I think current diabetes costs are predicted at something like
18 ? billion a year by 2020. Its still a great country to live in, not suggesting because of this government btw.
( even I wound nt sat that)

[Macca]

We have a record number of people in employment but the population of the country is also at record levels. I believe the number of people registered as unemployed and looking for work is still 1.5 million or thereabouts.

You might recall back in 1979 that 1 million unemployed was considered unacceptable.

So the employment situation is not great in reality.

[Macca]

Btw, how you could even consider voting UKIP, is beyond me, as they're ostensibly a watered-down, superficially more palatable version of the NF! Racists should never be in power in our country :nono:

Marco.

Plenty of non-white UKIP members so I dispute that they are anything like the NF

I also made it clear earlier in the thread that I am not that keen on UKIP, however I am keen on Brexit and voting UKIP does seem to send a message to the Conservatives that Brexit needs to happen. If it wasn't for UKIP we would never have had a chance to vote on the European question.

[tapid]

Your point about the population of the country is a fair one Martin.! best wishes

[Joe]

You might recall back in 1979 that 1 million unemployed was considered unacceptable..

Back in 1979 it was actually 1.5 million. It peaked at 3.2 million in 1982. It was last under a million in way back in 1973.

[Marco]

Plenty of non-white UKIP members so I dispute that they are anything like the NF


You're of course entitled to sympathise with whoever you like, but if you can't see that Farage, underneath his rather thinly constructed facade to the contrary, is fundamentally a racist, then I'm afraid you're allowing your support for some of UKIP's policies to cloud the reality, much as I feel you've allowed your unfortunate experiences with socialism, gained during your youth, to cloud your thinking, and engender in you a misplaced support for Conservatism.

That being the case (Farage a racist), if UKIP were voted in, you'd soon see his true agenda (which some in his party may have been blind to so far), unfolded in all its 'glory'!!

Marco.

[Macca]

You're of course entitled to sympathise with whoever you like, but if you can't see that Farage, underneath his rather thinly constructed facade to the contrary, is fundamentally a racist, then I'm afraid you're allowing your support for some of UKIP's policies to cloud the reality, much as I feel you've allowed your unfortunate experiences with socialism, gained during your youth, to cloud your thinking, and engender in you a misplaced support for Conservatism.

That being the case (Farage a racist), if UKIP were voted in, you'd soon see his true agenda (which some in his party may have been blind to so far), unfolded in all its 'glory'!!

Marco.

Firstly I don't 'support Conservatism'. I do support conservatism. Big difference. I am not nor have I ever been slightly impressed with Theresa May. Hence the tricky decision about who to vote for.

I don't agree that Farage is a racist in the actual meaning of the word. i.e the belief in the supremacy of one race over another.

I'll assume you are using the modern definition of racist here i.e 'someone who does not agree with me on issues of immigration.' In which case he is a racist and so am I.

UKIP will not be voted into power so what they may or may not plan to do is irrelevant. However the total number of votes cast for UKIP is a good indicator to the two parties who do have a chance of power that there is still a hard core of support for leaving the EU.

My distaste for socialism is not based solely upon having seem it in action first hand back in the 1980s but also upon my knowledge of economics, history and business. In short: It doesn't work and its net effect is to hurt the people it proclaims to help.

This does not mean that I swing automatically to Conservative, although I appreciate that the typical wide-eyed socialist will automatically assume to be the case. This is because they see it all as good guys versus bad, black and white, with us or against us.

IMO it is that childlike naivety that creates divisions that need not exist and which makes it all the more difficult to arrive at genuine, pragmatic solutions to the important issues.

[Arkless Electronics]

You're of course entitled to sympathise with whoever you like, but if you can't see that Farage, underneath his rather thinly constructed facade to the contrary, is fundamentally a racist, then I'm afraid you're allowing your support for some of UKIP's policies to cloud the reality, much as I feel you've allowed your unfortunate experiences with socialism, gained during your youth, to cloud your thinking, and engender in you a misplaced support for Conservatism.

That being the case (Farage a racist), if UKIP were voted in, you'd soon see his true agenda (which some in his party may have been blind to so far), unfolded in all its 'glory'!!

Marco.

+1! I have EXTREME prejudice against ukip and anyone who votes for them and regard them as complete c***s. If I heard of Farages untimely demise I would celebrate. Same with Trump!

[Marco]

Firstly I don't 'support Conservatism'. I do support conservatism. Big difference. I am not nor have I ever been slightly impressed with Theresa May. Hence the tricky decision about who to vote for.


I thought you said you voted Tory in 1987, thus for Thatcher of all people...? If that isn't supporting Conservatism, I don't know what is! :eek:


I don't agree that Farage is a racist in the actual meaning of the word. i.e the belief in the supremacy of one race over another.

I'll assume you are using the modern definition of racist here i.e 'someone who does not agree with me on issues of immigration.' In which case he is a racist and so am I.


I'm using the "definition" of such, as indicated by my eyes and ears, whenever listening to and watching him speak, which for me clearly indicates that, if he had his way, he'd indiscriminately banish ALL Muslim immigrants from the UK and prevent any more from entering the country. If that's not fundamentally racist, I don't know what is.


My distaste for socialism is not based solely upon having seem it in action first hand back in the 1980s but also upon my knowledge of economics, history and business. In short: It doesn't work and its net effect is to hurt the people it proclaims to help.


What, you mean like conservatism (small 'c'), as currently practised by the Tories, isn't hurting those very same people? I'm afraid that the mountains of currently available evidence to the contrary proves otherwise...

Also, not all socialists are hapless idiots like Derek Hatton!! ;)


This does not mean that I swing automatically to Conservative, although I appreciate that the typical wide-eyed socialist will automatically assume to be the case.


Lol... I hope you're not referring to me.

The only kind of 'ist' I am, is a REALIST, and yes, a "wide-eyed" one at that, observing the poverty, suffering and injustice all around me in our country, which is supposed to be one of the richest in the world, but yet continually ignores properly looking after its most vulnerable people - and it's quite clear to me who is most responsible for that, and it isn't the socialists!


IMO it is that childlike naivety that creates divisions that need not exist and which makes it all the more difficult to arrive at genuine, pragmatic solutions to the important issues.

No "childlike naivety" here; simply the observing of undisputed reality, which you appear to wish to brush under the carpet.

So what are the "important issues" then, for you?

I suspect the likes of achieving greater fairness and equality in our society, an end to UK poverty and homelessness, and folk starving in the streets (which could easily be achieved by penalising the fat cats/spending less on nuclear weapons, and diverting those funds instead into to building more hostels), and ensuring that those citizens of our country, together with the rest of our underprivileged, live a dignified and purposeful life, or an end to the disabled having their benefits cruelly cut, won't feature in your list of "important issues" because you rarely, if ever, mention such things....................

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I thought you said you voted Tory in 1987, thus for Thatcher of all people...? If that isn't supporting Conservatism, I don't know what is! :eek:



I'm using the "definition" of such, as indicated by my eyes and ears, whenever listening to and watching him speak, which for me clearly indicates that, if he had his way, he'd indiscriminately banish ALL Muslim immigrants from the UK and prevent any more from entering the country. If that's not fundamentally racist, I don't know what is.



What, you mean like conservatism (small 'c'), as currently practised by the Tories, isn't hurting those very same people? I'm afraid that the mountains of currently available evidence to the contrary proves otherwise...

Also, not all socialists are hapless idiots like Derek Hatton!! ;)



Lol... I hope you're not referring to me.

The only kind of 'ist' I am, is a REALIST, and yes, a "wide-eyed" one at that, observing the poverty, suffering and injustice all around me in our country, which is supposed to be one of the richest in the world, but yet continually ignores properly looking after its most vulnerable people - and it's quite clear to me who is most responsible for that, and it isn't the socialists!



No "childlike naivety" here; simply the observing of undisputed reality, which you appear to wish to brush under the carpet.

So what are the "important issues" then, for you?

I suspect the likes of achieving greater fairness and equality in our society, an end to UK poverty and homelessness, and folk starving in the streets (which could easily be achieved by penalising the fat cats/spending less on nuclear weapons, and diverting those funds instead into to building more hostels), and ensuring that those citizens of our country, together with the rest of our underprivileged, live a dignified and purposeful life, or an end to the disabled having their benefits cruelly cut, won't feature in your list of "important issues" because you rarely, if ever, mention such things....................

Marco.

Spot on!

If you look at the people living in an average UK street in an average UK city there will be the bloke 2 doors down in the wheel chair, the single mother with 2 kids over the road, the old bloke who needs to stop to use his inhaler every 50 yards, the 3 or 4 who lost their jobs when the local factory shut down (probably cos of brexit!) and haven't been able to find another job cos they're in their 50's and haven't done anything but work in that factory...

If you vote Tory you are saying "yep I've just condemned all of you, the poorest and neediest in my own street, to a worse life cos Tory tax policy means I (me me me!!!) can save a fiver a week towards my next foreign holiday/new car/ jacuzzi/whatever and I don't give a fuck what happens to my neighbours".

I don't know how anyone who would condone this can sleep at night... and if they can then I hope they themselves lose their jobs and or become ill and find out what it's like first hand!

I think it was Gandhi who said something on the lines of "a nation may be judged on how it treats its sick, its elderly, its animals and its prisoners".

[Marco]

I think it was Gandhi who said something on the lines of "a nation may be judged on how it treats its sick, its elderly, its animals and its prisoners".

I like that - how VERY true!!!

Marco.

[RothwellAudio]

If you vote Tory you are saying "yep I've just condemned all of you, the poorest and neediest in my own street, to a worse life cos Tory tax policy means I (me me me!!!) can save a fiver a week towards my next foreign holiday/new car/ jacuzzi/whatever and I don't give a fuck what happens to my neighbours".
Doesn't that mean it isn't the Conservative party which is the problem, it's the electorate? How you would deal with that problem, I have no idea - stop people from voting if they don't vote the way you want them to?

[Macca]

I'm using the "definition" of such, as indicated by my eyes and ears, whenever listening to and watching him speak, which for me clearly indicates that, if he had his way, he'd indiscriminately banish ALL Muslim immigrants from the UK and prevent any more from entering the country. If that's not fundamentally racist, I don't know what is.



.

He has never said this - link me to one instance where he calls for expulsion of all muslims.

In any case a muslim can be of any ethnic background so quite how that links to white supremacy is a mystery to me,


As for the rest of it is just polemic. 'People starving on the streets'. Since when?

I live in the poorest area of the poorest city in the UK and I've never seen anyone starving on the streets.

I've also been as poor as it is possible to be in this country (single male, unemployed, no possessions or property, no savings.) I've had a couple of quid to last me the week and gone hungry many times. So don't lecture me on poverty because I've been there and done it.

You think the solution is to get Corbyn in and bankrupt the country?

The only people that won't hurt is the rich.

That's not to say that I think the Tories are a viable alternative because they are not. At best they are just less of a disaster than Labour. This is why I have not voted since 1987

[RothwellAudio]

The only people that won't hurt is the rich.

That's true. The very rich are immune to the ups and downs of the economy. The very richest people in the world have increased their wealth since the financial crash of 2007/2008.

[farflungstar]

Back in 1979 it was actually 1.5 million. It peaked at 3.2 million in 1982. It was last under a million in way back in 1973.
Can we remember that this record unemployment is mainly down to zero hours contracts and the gig economy. They are not real jobs in the correct sense - they do not allow benefits - they hide the truth.

[Marco]

He has never said this - link me to one instance where he calls for expulsion of all muslims.


The key was in the bit where I wrote: "if he had his way", which of course he hasn't yet, and let's hope he never does either.

He hasn't actually said what I've intimated (of course not, or he would've been lambasted for it), but it would take the most non-astute (or deliberately blind) person not to see that that's what he would like to happen.

Farage is fundamentally a racist, or at the very least, someone who displays very obvious racist tendencies.



As for the rest of it is just polemic. 'People starving on the streets'. Since when?


Lol... Here we go again, shades of your (now infamous) 'there are no food banks' comment! OPEN YOUR EYES, FFS, Martin, and have look at the world around you, out with of your own back yard.

Funny how every Sunday, I give a few pounds to one such homeless (obviously also severely malnourished) person, who [very politely and unobtrusively] begs outside our church - and if I then walked along to the local bus station, I'd almost certainly meet another 10 or 15 people like him.

And I've witnessed this, not just in Wrexham, but elsewhere in Wales and throughout the UK, especially when I was last up in Glasgow. Perhaps you don't get around enough to see these things, but I can assure you that they're as REAL as the nose on your face! And mate, it's a FUCKING DISGRACE, when it could so easily be eradicated.


I've also been as poor as it is possible to be in this country (single male, unemployed, no possessions or property, no savings.) I've had a couple of quid to last me the week and gone hungry many times. So don't lecture me on poverty because I've been there and done it.


I'm not lecturing you on anything; merely responding to your previous post, whilst expressing and defending my contrary views. If you've been so poor in the past, then I'm rather shocked that you don't seem to show more empathy now towards those in similar (or worse) circumstances.

All you seem to do is defend the 'money men'. Sorry, but that's what comes across from the content of your posts to date on these topics.....


You think the solution is to get Corbyn in and bankrupt the country?

The only people that won't hurt is the rich.


I don't believe that would happen, so we'll simply have to disagree on the issue of 'bankruptcy'.

All I know for sure is that the current "solution" clearly isn't working, so I'm willing to give Corbyn a chance to see what he can do, just as you did once with Thatcher, as I consider him as drastically 'the lesser evil' than the current only real alternative!

Let's hope that, in the fullness of time, my decision works out better than yours did... ;)

Marco.

[tapid]

Can we remember that this record unemployment is mainly down to zero hours contracts and the gig economy. They are not real jobs in the correct sense - they do not allow benefits - they hide the truth.
Rather be on a zero hour contract than be a young person living in Spain over the last few years with youth unemployment
at some incredible figure like 30% 40%.?

[martian sunrise]

there mustn't be any starbucks in spain

[Marco]

If you eat or drink in Starbucks, in somewhere like Spain, then clearly you shouldn't be allowed to vote, or arguably allowed out unsupervised! ;)

Marco.

[farflungstar]

Spain's problems are nothing to do with the EU - it's government stupidity and corruption.

[walpurgis]

Spain's problems are nothing to do with the EU - it's government stupidity and corruption.

A bit like here then...........................and America.................and the rest of the world!

[Arkless Electronics]

Doesn't that mean it isn't the Conservative party which is the problem, it's the electorate? How you would deal with that problem, I have no idea - stop people from voting if they don't vote the way you want them to?

If the nasty party didn't exist they wouldn't be able to vote for them! If they didn't have such evil policies they wouldn't be able to vote for this evil. After brexit and trump I would favour a benign dictatorship over democracy as the people are too thick and too selfish to make such big decisions (they would no doubt vote for the return of the death penalty. Which is why they must never be given the chance).
Unfortunately any dictatorship may turn non benign and power corrupts.....
Worst of all many people have been brainwashed by The Daily Mair etc which encourages hatred and division to the extent many of the idiots which make up half the electorate will probably vote to try and hurt whoever they don't like rather than to try to get a fair and friendly society in which everyone can thrive in equality. See brexit for best example of this... "maybe I'll lose my job but it will be the foreigners that will suffer first and suffer most so I'm voting leave"

There was a TW3 sketch with Cleese and the two Ronnies which many will have seen.. "I'm working class and I look up to him and him, but I'm upper class and I look down on both him and him" etc, Capitalism, the worlds greatest evil, is to blame not only for this but a much more pernicious and quite deliberate "divide and conquer" in which nowadays, people are not divided into upper middle and lower classes based on birth, but on many more layers based on wealth and greed...

"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.

Capitalism, through the media and advertising, is trying its best to tribalise us into all sorts of strata of "us and them" where the way we vote (if we're thick enough to be so brainwashed, which unfortunately over half the population are) is almost decided by where we live and what we've got in the bank...
A further twist in these dark days is some will even vote to try to harm those they see as below them... even as a priority above voting for their own best interests! It's not a new phenomena (see Orwells "The road to Wigan pier") but is becoming stronger and more pernicious by the year. The turkeys keep on voting for xmas... cos they hope they'll come for the chickens first...

Some of the worst examples are such as when one hears of a village of posh toffs , most of which have 3-4 cars and own a holiday home as well, trying to stop a hostel for the homeless being built half a mile away in case it lowers the value of their own home.... worse still, some may remember spikes being built into the pavement outside posh apartments in London to prevent the homeless from even having "the luxury" of bare concrete...

Corbyn is probably the best chance we've ever had to end this hegemony of the elite wealthy establishment which is behind all the above... Hence the media, owned by the very same rich establishment, are doing everything they can to ruin the chances of us getting a truly socialist Labour government for the first time since 1948. You know, the one that gave us the NHS and the welfare state:)

In this same vein I believe it's well overdue for legislation to be passed to prevent the BLATANT attempts (largely successful ones) of private, wealthy, newspaper proprietors and their shareholders to dictate who runs the country!!!
It's a fine line.. freedom of the press etc, but if you go into a newsagent today and look at the headlines most every one of them will have huge headlines virtually calling Corbyn Satan incarnate!

The conflict of interest is breathtakingly obvious here. It's multi billionaires like Murdoch and Dacre (and their equally wealthy and powerful chums and backers in industry and gov) who stand to have their tax loopholes closed and may lose their ocean going yachts to help pay for the NHS! It's about as fair and unbiased as a court case in which the judge and jury are the defendants family...

Great Britain, The best "democracy" money can buy!

[Macca]

The key was in the bit where I wrote: "if he had his way", which of course he hasn't yet, and let's hope he never does either.

He hasn't actually said what I've intimated (of course not, or he would've been lambasted for it), but it would take the most non-astute (or deliberately blind) person not to see that that's what he would like to happen.

Farage is fundamentally a racist, or at the very least, someone who displays very obvious racist tendencies.




Lol... Here we go again, shades of your (now infamous) 'there are no food banks' comment! OPEN YOUR EYES, FFS, Martin, and have look at the world around you, out with of your own back yard.

.

Last time you claimed I wrote that I offered £100 to the charity if your choice if you could reproduce the post. You couldn't
If you are going to debate with me don't put words in my mouth.

There is a hostel for the homeless not half a mile from my house. There is a halfway house for offenders released from prison about 200 feet from my house. 'My back yard' , as I already said, is the poorest area of the poorest city in England. Hardly ever see anyone begging, think the last time was about 3 month ago. Gave him 50p. And he wasn't homeless, just spinning a bad luck story about having lost his bus fare.

Some of these people have mental health issues and I would agree, since I know people who work in that field, that more needs to be done. But more has needed to be done for 30 years, under Labour or Tory. It isn't as simple as just throwing money at the problem. Why people think that is the answer to everything I have no idea.

Some of them are drug addicts or alcoholics. Again this is a problem that should be dealt with. Again it is more complex than money.

What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages.

You accuse me of defending the 'money men' whoever they are. I already made it clear in my previous post that I am not defending anyone. I'm as keen to resolve social problems as much as you are, we simply disagree about the best way to go about it. More than that, you think Corbyn is the answer whilst I think he will only make things worse.

Now we can discuss that in more detail if you wish, since that is the point at which we actually disagree. But you have to realise I am absolutely not arguing from a partisan point of view but a realistic one. Being against Corbyn does not automatically make me for May, or Farage, or anyone else. My position is far more complex than that, and my opinion of anyone who thinks it is possible to take a simple black and white position is that they really ought to reconsider at length.

Now don't get me wrong, I admire people who have principles and conviction. Trouble is if you want to achieve your objectives in the real world those things are a liability, not an asset. There is system and you have to play it to get the outcomes you want.

This shit's chess not chequers. You want to tear the system down and build a new one? That is never going to happen and the more you waste your energy shouting for it the less you have to actually do something about it. And I'm not talking about changing the system from within either. I'm taking about gaming the existing system. It is what rich people do to get richer, after all, so why can the same tactics not be employed to help solve the problems you highlighted?

[Marco]

Some very salient points here, Jez:


Worst of all many people have been brainwashed by The Daily Mair etc which encourages hatred and division to the extent many of the idiots which make up half the electorate will probably vote to try and hurt whoever they don't like rather than to try to get a fair and friendly society in which everyone can thrive in equality. See brexit for best example of this... "maybe I'll lose my job but it will be the foreigners that will suffer first and suffer most so I'm voting leave"


I would agree. Rather bizarrely too, it's some of the working classes who often display the most anti-socialist tendencies, almost as if they've forgotten their roots, or worse, turned into the types you've mentioned above!


"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.


Indeed - and I see evidence of that odious mentality everywhere. Thatcher was largely (but not solely) responsible for creating it.


A further twist in these dark days is some will even vote to try to harm those they see as below them... even as a priority above voting for their own best interests! It's not a new phenomena (see Orwells "The road to Wigan pier") but is becoming stronger and more pernicious by the year. The turkeys keep on voting for xmas... cos they hope they'll come for the chickens first...


Interesting... It certainly ties in with your previous point about Brexit.


Some of the worst examples are such as when one hears of a village of posh toffs , most of which have 3-4 cars and own a holiday home as well, trying to stop a hostel for the homeless being built half a mile away in case it lowers the value of their own home.... worse still, some may remember spikes being built into the pavement outside posh apartments in London to prevent the homeless from even having "the luxury" of bare concrete...


Yes I've heard of that too, and it beggars belief, especially the latter, which is quite simply blatant cruelty, and ably displays the complete absence of decent human thinking, such a 'greed for gold' breeds.

And that 'greed for gold' has been instilled in the minds of many of the current electorate, due to being force-fed a capitalist 'me first' agenda for years - and not just by the Tories either...


Corbyn is probably the best chance we've ever had to end this hegemony of the elite wealthy establishment which is behind all the above... Hence the media, owned by the very same rich establishment, are doing everything they can to ruin the chances of us getting a truly socialist Labour government for the first time since 1948. You know, the one that gave us the NHS and the welfare state:)


Hear, hear, which is one of the main reasons why I've voted Labour for the first time ever.


It's a fine line.. freedom of the press etc, but if you go into a newsagent today and look at the headlines most every one of them will have huge headlines virtually calling Corbyn Satan incarnate!


Yes, because they're all owned by Murdoch (one of the key members of the elite), who therefore indirectly drives the political agenda, for the benefit of him and others like him. It's truly amazing that some folks can't see that! :doh:


The conflict of interest is breathtakingly obvious here. It's multi billionaires like Murdoch and Dacre (and their equally wealthy and powerful chums and backers in industry and gov) who stand to have their tax loopholes closed and may lose their ocean going yachts to help pay for the NHS!

Ain't that the truth! If it were up to me, I'd "close" more than their bloody tax loopholes.... ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

...

"I shop in Waitrose and I'm better than her cos she shops in Tesco", "I shop at Tesco and I'm better than her cos she shops at Aldi" etc... everywhere you look you are being encouraged to judge others based on how wealthy they are, where they live, what car they drive.... and to many who are that shallow, country of birth, skin colour and religion will come into this in a big way.

!

Do you actually know anyone like this Jez? I'm not saying they don't exist just that I never come across them and I wonder how you know them. I did once have a bunch of old grannies take the piss out of me at the till in Kwik Save because I was buying Lurpak butter, which they quite vocally let me know they considered a reckless extravagance. But I'm not sure that is the same thing.

[Arkless Electronics]

Do you actually know anyone like this Jez? I'm not saying they don't exist just that I never come across them and I wonder how you know them. I did once have a bunch of old grannies take the piss out of me at the till in Kwik Save because I was buying Lurpak butter, which they quite vocally let me know they considered a reckless extravagance. But I'm not sure that is the same thing.

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?

I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

[Macca]

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?

I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

Yes, 'Harrod's carrier bag syndrome' is one I've observed. Agree it is a bit shallow, but I'd argue we will always have shallow people even if we could make everyone rich tomorrow.

Thing is people will compete with each other in any way they can. The carrier bag thing is very much female. Now we all accept that men are competitive amongst themselves but forget that women are too. A women dolls herself up for a night out, that isn't to impress men, that's to impress other women. I'd argue that is inherent in the species. Not the shallowness but the urge to compete. And the latter creates the former.

[Arkless Electronics]

Last time you claimed I wrote that I offered £100 to the charity if your choice if you could reproduce the post. You couldn't
If you are going to debate with me don't put words in my mouth.

There is a hostel for the homeless not half a mile from my house. There is a halfway house for offenders released from prison about 200 feet from my house. 'My back yard' , as I already said, is the poorest area of the poorest city in England. Hardly ever see anyone begging, think the last time was about 3 month ago. Gave him 50p. And he wasn't homeless, just spinning a bad luck story about having lost his bus fare.

Some of these people have mental health issues and I would agree, since I know people who work in that field, that more needs to be done. But more has needed to be done for 30 years, under Labour or Tory. It isn't as simple as just throwing money at the problem. Why people think that is the answer to everything I have no idea.

Some of them are drug addicts or alcoholics. Again this is a problem that should be dealt with. Again it is more complex than money.

What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages.

You accuse me of defending the 'money men' whoever they are. I already made it clear in my previous post that I am not defending anyone. I'm as keen to resolve social problems as much as you are, we simply disagree about the best way to go about it. More than that, you think Corbyn is the answer whilst I think he will only make things worse.

Now we can discuss that in more detail if you wish, since that is the point at which we actually disagree. But you have to realise I am absolutely not arguing from a partisan point of view but a realistic one. Being against Corbyn does not automatically make me for May, or Farage, or anyone else. My position is far more complex than that, and my opinion of anyone who thinks it is possible to take a simple black and white position is that they really ought to reconsider at length.

Now don't get me wrong, I admire people who have principles and conviction. Trouble is if you want to achieve your objectives in the real world those things are a liability, not an asset. There is system and you have to play it to get the outcomes you want.

This shit's chess not chequers. You want to tear the system down and build a new one? That is never going to happen and the more you waste your energy shouting for it the less you have to actually do something about it. And I'm not talking about changing the system from within either. I'm taking about gaming the existing system. It is what rich people do to get richer, after all, so why can the same tactics not be employed to help solve the problems you highlighted?

I read here a paean of praise and subjugation to your "betters" whilst waving a white flag and handing them the vaseline...

"What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages."
Whilst I'm disgusted to see the word "scrounger" after "dole" (I can't really expect any better from a Tory) this is exactly the sort of thing I'm on about in my equally long rant... People thinking that if they're not doing particularly well then they want to see someone else, the "them" rather than the "us", do even worse! Shameful.

[Marco]

Thing is people will compete with each other in any way they can.


Lol - you say that almost as if it's a given!

Only certain types are prone to such (frankly risible) behaviour, whilst those of us with sufficiently high self-esteem and confidence in ourselves don't feel the need to compete with or 'impress' anyone, least of all over shallow, materialistic shite such as Jez mentioned ;)


Now we all accept that men are competitive amongst themselves but forget that women are too. A women dolls herself up for a night out, that isn't to impress men, that's to impress other women. I'd argue that is inherent in the species. Not the shallowness but the urge to compete. And the latter creates the former.

Double LOL... Thank fuck then I married one who quite clearly missed the necessary 'chip insertion', when such a species was created! :D

I'll get to your previous (long) post later.

Marco.

[Marco]

I've met many yes and amongst the shallower and more intellectually challenged I would guess 60% plus are like this. Why do you think many women will save Harrod's carrier bags etc?


Indeed, and it doesn't simply manifest itself in 'carrier-bag syndrome' either. That risibly shallow, snooty/competitive attitude rears its ugly head in so many other ways, which is one of the reasons why we decided never again to live in a housing estate and have neighbours right next door!! :mental: :nono:


I've even heard people (again usually women when it comes to "supermarket politics") put on their best "telephone voice" to say "oh no I would never shop at Aldi's , eee the types one has to mix with"....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.... That's fucking hilarious!! It just shows you how fatally ignorant these snobby tossers are :lol:

The reality is they'd be mixing largely with the discerning middle-classes [count me in], who know the quality and value for money available with the some of the stock sold there (especially anything inherently German), and often also B&B or small restaurant owners, possessing the same knowledge, and because of the low price/high quality ratio of their purchases, are able to keep their customers happy, whilst making a good profit for their respective businesses.

One look at the cars parked outside your average Lidl or Aldi, ably demonstrates that fact. In Wrexham branch of Lidl recently, I had a nice chat in the car park with a chap who owned a restaurant and drove a Mercedes C63 AMG, and who was admiring the Brabster, whilst his wife was inside buying her favourite smoked salmon and Prosecco!

If you want chavs, you're more likely to find them in Asda or Tesco, not Aldi or Lidl!! Ignorant dickheads....

Marco.

[Macca]

I read here a paean of praise and subjugation to your "betters" whilst waving a white flag and handing them the vaseline...

"What you will find if you talk to people who do hard, boring jobs for little money, is that they are dead against giving alchys and druggies money, dead against dole scroungers, dead against unlimited immigration. It isn't the rich who are bothered about these things, it is typical Labour voters, people who work full-time for minimum (or close to it) wages."
Whilst I'm disgusted to see the word "scrounger" after "dole" (I can't really expect any better from a Tory) this is exactly the sort of thing I'm on about in my equally long rant... People thinking that if they're not doing particularly well then they want to see someone else, the "them" rather than the "us", do even worse! Shameful.

Totally missing the points I was making, back to 'Four legs good two legs bad.' You can't get beyond that? You don't understand that I was quoting other people about dole scroungers? Come off it man. I was on the dole a long time.

[tapid]

Very salient point s by Martin in the last few posts I think. If there s SO much poverty around and I agree there is some why is there so much
obesity around ? Fed up with green leader mrs Lucas keep going on about 4 million children in poverty, surely if that true Britain would be like
Biafra in the 1970 s for goodness sake. My top take home pay through 40 years of working was never more than about £ 1,200 a month
but through careful budgeting and sensible use of that money i.e. no drugs, smoking, and just sensible drinking I've never been in debt.
Okay, i m incredibly gratefull to have very good parents, and some folk are less fortunate, and I guess with many thats where the problems
start . However i m sure a good many people are a least partly responsible for there own sorry situations.

[Arkless Electronics]

Totally missing the points I was making, back to 'Four legs good two legs bad.' You can't get beyond that? You don't understand that I was quoting other people about dole scroungers? Come off it man. I was on the dole a long time.

Your use of quotation marks rather gave away the fact that you were quoting others.... but you didn't give any hint of disapproval of such sentiments...

To echo Marco's comment earlier, I'm rather surprised that someone who has been on the receiving end of Tory "largesse" could approve of them...

I totally disagree that we should just accept the status quo, that it's not worth putting up a fight to change things as "that's the way it is and always will be". It's a good thing the likes of Rosa Parks and Dr Martin Luther King didn't take the same attitude....

[Marco]

I totally disagree that we should just accept the status quo, that it's not worth putting up a fight to change things as "that's the way it is and always will be". It's a good thing the likes of Rosa Parks and Dr Martin Luther King didn't take the same attitude....

Dammed tootin'!! I've always been the type to challenge/fight the system, and vehemently defend what I believe in.

In fact, I'd gladly be one of the ringleaders if there should ever be a peoples revolt in this country, fighting against the odious establishment, who created the system we're all supposed to just sit back and allow to control us like sheep!

Fuck that. It's the reason why Del and I have created our own near self-sufficient 'little island', which largely divorces us from being controlled by the system. If you don't agree with 'the system', then fight it and shield yourself from it, as best as you can - don't just sit back and take being shat upon from a great height!!

People power can (and historically has) overthrown governments. If the current lot retain power after tomorrow's election (as unfortunately seems likely), and so folk, already downtrodden and near-broken, have to endure Tory austerity for another five years, I can confidently predict riots in the streets.... And I'd fully support it, too!

Marco.

[Macca]

To echo Marco's comment earlier, I'm rather surprised that someone who has been on the receiving end of Tory "largesse" could approve of them...

...

I don't approve of them. When did I say that? Do me a favour and read that long post I made again with a little less prejudice.

I was trying t make some serious points about getting beyond ideologies and party politics but starting to think I am wasting my time.

[Marco]

I don't approve of them.

Then, Martin, why did you once vote Tory, and for THATCHER, of all people, if you don't "approve" of them? :hmm:

I'm sorry, but I don't buy how anyone who could vote for someone like Thatcher, who was the very epitome of what the Tories stood for (and indeed still stand for), and NOT approve of them. It's a total dichotomy and simply doesn't square with the argument you're currently putting forward.

You'd be as well just admitting that you're a Tory sympathiser, and be done with it, as indeed you're perfectly entitled to be, if that's your bag, thus have leanings in that direction, than ridiculously denying it and losing all credibility in the process.

Marco.

[Marco]

From earlier...


Last time you claimed I wrote that I offered £100 to the charity if your choice if you could reproduce the post. You couldn't
If you are going to debate with me don't put words in my mouth.


I've told you before, I'm not putting words in your mouth.

You certainly implied, in a previous discussion, that the existence of food banks, here in the UK, was a myth, much in the same way as you're currently doing in relation to the issue of starvation, and I'm afraid that once again you're wrong.

Trust me, I have a retentive memory, especially for things like that, but it will take more than you donating £100 to charity, to suitably motivate me to trawl through, potentially 1000s of posts, in order to find the one in question.

How about YOU do the trawling instead, and if you find it and show that I'm mistaken, then apart from apologising, I'll donate £200 to the charity of your choice? ;)

I'm confident, however, that the money will remain firmly lodged inside my wallet....


There is a hostel for the homeless not half a mile from my house. There is a halfway house for offenders released from prison about 200 feet from my house. 'My back yard' , as I already said, is the poorest area of the poorest city in England. Hardly ever see anyone begging, think the last time was about 3 month ago. Gave him 50p. And he wasn't homeless, just spinning a bad luck story about having lost his bus fare.


Well, I can confidently tell you that if you go into ANY major city in the UK, you'll find homeless folk on the streets, with a begging bowl in front of them. It's a common enough sight, so perhaps the homeless (and starving/malnourished) in Stoke are simply a wee bit 'shy'...? ;)

However, returning to your remark of "since when?" has there been starving people in the UK (the fact is, they don't have to be on the streets begging, for them to exist), and you can bet your boots that as you live in one of the poorest cities in the UK, if you were to go into some people's homes there, you'd find all the proof you needed of the existence of very REAL POVERTY and starvation, and it would act as a rather rude awakening........

Have you watched Eastenders recently?

Probably not, but the major soaps are well known for publicising current social issues, by creating story lines that tackle those issues, and one of the show's main characters ('Denise Fox') has been involved in a major storyline recently, involving becoming penniless and starving, after having quit her job (due to refusing to be a corporate pawn, managing a local mini-market), and subsequently falling fowl of the benefits system.

Since you like doing research, check it out. If the issue of starvation wasn't commonplace today in the UK, there's no way that one of the main soaps would cover it, with a view to drawing people's attention to the matter. They do so because they know that the brainless general public will often take more notice of what happens in a soap opera, than on the news! :rolleyes:

But that doesn't detract from the FACT that starvation, despite your denying its existence, is a serious problem confronting many people NOW, living in the UK, in abject poverty, so I can assure you that there will be 1000s of 'Denise Foxs' out there in the real world, who are very real victims of an unfair and unjust benefits system.... So Martin, it's time for you, in that respect, to wake up and smell the coffee.

I'll refrain from commenting on the remainder of your post, as what you raised there has already been addressed by Jez and I, save to say that *some* of the "druggies" and "scroungers" you mention are simply innocent victims of the system, in the same way as 'Denise' was in Eastenders - and perhaps in order to handle the sheer awfulness of sleeping rough every night, need to take something to help blot it all out!

THAT is how many such "druggies" are born....

Marco.

[tapid]

But surely Martin makes a decent point about beggars not always being homeless. We have a guy near us walks from his council flat and sits outside
Budgens in Belsize park begging with his dog. And one day he let the dog poo on the edge of my driveway and left it there right where many toddlers are walking past
…….. Lovely. And talking about that how come all these guys are walking around these estates with big dogs ,if there so hard up ?
No, my little kitten ( who we only took in from the poor lady across the road because her teenage daughter s dying) costs us around 4oo- 500 pound a year
on food alone, so how can they afford, justify owning a dog, as well as in many cases being bailed out by tax payers money !
And talking about tax payers money when Gordon introduced tax credits in 2003 it cost 3 billion pound per year, it is now I thing somewhere in the region
of 30 billion I think? YES UNDER THE WICKED TORIES !. And one of the first measures taken by the coalition in 2010 was to get rid of it for those better off earning over 50.000
YES UNDER THE WICKED TORIES. So people were working hard, paying taxes, that kinda of ended back in there own pockets in a circular fashion ,so to speak ,
WHAT ! Having said that Labour did help me personally with tax credits scheme as I've always been on low income. Just wanted to be fair there to labour?
Btw I was wrong yesterday about youth unemployment in Spain being 40%, in 2013 it was 56% !!!.An Incredible number, meanwhile according to Mr Cable ( hardly a tory )
we have enjoy a job s creation boom. Whoever you vote for today have a peaceful day. best wishes

[Macca]

From earlier...



I've told you before, I'm not putting words in your mouth.

You certainly implied, in a previous discussion, that the existence of food banks, here in the UK, was a myth, much in the same way as you're currently doing in relation to the issue of starvation, and I'm afraid that once again you're wrong.

Trust me, I have a retentive memory, especially for things like that, but it will take more than you donating £100 to charity, to suitably motivate me to trawl through, potentially 1000s of posts, in order to find the one in question.

How about YOU do the trawling instead, and if you find it and show that I'm mistaken, then apart from apologising, I'll donate £200 to the charity of your choice? ;)

.

You made the claim, you back it up. How can I find something that doesn't exist?

As for watching Eastenders to learn about real life, no need for a response there, I'll just let that one sit.

[Marco]

Hi Brian,


But surely Martin makes a decent point about beggars not always being homeless.


Absolutely (your example is also a case in point), and some folk who are falsely adept at it, can make a rather good living... Of course I don't condone that sort of activity in any way.

However, those are not the people I'm referring to, but rather the genuine ones, of which sadly there are many, and that simply shouldn't be the case in somewhere like the UK. So we need our government to narrow the gap between rich and poor, and most importantly, provide more hostels for those who genuinely need them.


Whoever you vote for today have a peaceful day. best wishes

Indeed, and to you too... Don't know why more folks don't use the postal voting system, which has got to be more convenient than traipsing along to a polling station. We need to get with the times and start doing it on line. Anyway, I sincerely hope that Labour can win, but realistically they have two hopes: Bob Hope and no hope.

Therefore, I predict a Tory win, but with a reduced majority, compared with Labour the last time under Miliband, who was a veritable clown, clearly reflected in their dismal failure. Corbyn will defo do better, but I doubt it'll be good enough.

Marco.

[Marco]

You made the claim, you back it up. How can I find something that doesn't exist?


Lol - ok, whatever keeps you happy!


As for watching Eastenders to learn about real life, no need for a response there, I'll just let that one sit.

Oh come on, and you talk about others completely missing the point..... You're deliberately missing it, simply to be facetious.

In any case, I'd already made my point crystal clear before referring to the Eastenders storyline, which simply depicted a very real problem that some people are facing.

Marco.

[Joe]

Learn to use the AoS search function FFS!

Two minutes searching found this post from last year, when the issue of food banks also arose:

'I'm quite good at researching, which is better than relying on memory.

Here's the relevant thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showt...ight=food+bank

And here's what Macca actually wrote in the relevant post:

Marco: 'Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?'

Macca: They are not relying on food banks to eat. before we had food banks were people starving to death? No. I lived on benefits for almost 4 years, no food banks back then. Did I starve to death? Obviously not. If you are on a low income a bit of free food frees up some cash to spend on something else you could not otherwise afford.

So Macca didn't actually say there were/are no food banks, rather that people didn't 'rely' on them to eat and would starve to death without them.'

I'll leave it for the two of you to decide who owes how much to charity.

[Marco]

Joe to the rescue, lol!

Unfortunately, your link doesn't work, as although I don't dispute the content of the quotes (indicating that I owe Martin an apology), I'd like to read the context in which they were made and the discussion beforehand and afterwards.

What it does highlight however, is him again disputing the austerity that quite simply is a reality for many, plus stating (incorrectly) that no-one in the UK is starving and that people don't rely on food banks to eat, both of which are patently untrue.

Anyway, research-boy, learn how to post links that work, FFS! :ner::D

Marco.

[Joe]

Here's the entire post:

Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
Yes, but unfortunately none about the harsh reality of the world most people live in TODAY, which is rather more important. Here are some things to consider:

Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?

Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?

Have you ever tried to survive on no income, with no benefits whatsoever when Atos tell you that you're fit for work and stop your benefits, when quite clearly (as confirmed by your doctor) that you are no fit state whatsoever to do so?

When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of our poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy living in?

Lecture to those people about economics and socio-economics and see what they tell you!!

Marco.
Why, here in the UK, in the lack of austerity you claim, are 1000s of people having to rely on food banks to eat? Why is there so many homeless (many more than show up on deliberately 'massaged' government figures)?

They are not relying on food banks to eat. before we had food banks were people starving to death? No. I lived on benefits for almost 4 years, no food banks back then. Did I starve to death? Obviously not. If you are on a low income a bit of free food frees up some cash to spend on something else you could not otherwise afford.

Is the bedroom tax any fairer for ordinary people than the poll tax was?

There is no such thing as the 'bedroom tax'. However if you are claiming Housing Benefit to cover your rent and you are living in a house that is larger than you need you no longer get extra benefit to pay for it. Consequently there is at the moment a proces of re-shuffling wherby over-occupiers are being moved to smaller, cheaper accomodation. This, in theory, frees up welfare money to be spent on more deserving cases.

When was the last time either Richard or you visited one of our poorest council estates in the UK and saw how people live there - in the real world, out with of the one that you and I are fortunate enough to enjoy living in?

Well I can't speak for Richard but given that you have been to my house and seen where I live I am surprised you would even ask me that. It is not a council estate, admittedly, but quite a few of the houses on my street are council houses or housing association houses, which amounts to the same thing.
Perhaps you should come over and you could speak to the girl who was in front of me in the queue in the off licence last Friday. Ordinary working day, ten o'clock in the morning and she is buying 8 cans of Carlsberg and twenty Benson. Ask her what she thinks about the plight of the masses and the downtrodden working classes. My guess is she doesn't give a monkey's. That's the reality.

[Marco]

Lol... Do you not know how to post direct links to threads?

Simply go to the thread in question, copy the full code contained in the address bar in your browser, and paste it onto the reply box and post it!

Anyway, I'll have a read of the bit you've supplied.

Marco.

[Marco]

Ok, despite not being able to read key full pages of the thread in question, in order to properly ascertain exactly what was written, on the basis of what I can see, I'm happy to accept that I was wrong, and that Martin didn't deny the existence of food banks, so for that I would apologise to him.

That's putting aside, of course, his erroneous statements about austerity and that people don't rely on food banks to eat, when clearly if you should ever go to one and speak to those there using them, the reality is rather different.

As for the money to charity thing, it doesn't apply as the deal was that I was to find where Martin had said that food banks don't exist, and if I did, he'd give £100 to charity, which of course didn't happen. However, as a gesture of kindness, I'll give the homeless chap, sitting outside our church on Sunday £20, which I'm sure will be greatly appreciated.

Marco.

[tapid]

I am sure it will Marco. Nice gesture.

[Clive]

I'll give the homeless chap, sitting outside our church on Sunday £20, which I'm sure will be greatly appreciated.

Unless you know his situation well you'd be better off giving him £20 in food rather than cash. Even then chose the food carefully in case he's veggie.

[Marco]

Hi Clive,

Yup, I understand what you're saying, but the way I look at it, I'm in no position to judge him or what he does (as I know nothing about him or how he got into that situation), so if the cash brings him a little comfort, in whatever way he chooses, that's fine with me :)

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Even then chose the food carefully in case he's veggie.

Being a "veggie" is a luxury for those who have the means to eat as they choose. The starving are likely to be less fussy and eat whatever they can get.

[Clive]

Hi Clive,

Yup, I understand what you're saying, but the way I look at it, I'm in no position to judge him or what he does (as I know nothing about him or how he got into that situation), so if the cash brings him a little comfort, in whatever way he chooses, that's fine with me :)

Marco.
Fair enough Marco.

[walpurgis]

Less than twenty minutes to go. Then a wait for first results. Maybe an hour later.

[hifinutt]

mmmm Newcastle were fast and first labour win , no surprise there

[Scooby]

Exit polls suggesting Cons short of a majority. I'll believe it when I see it. Prety certain they will still have a majority when I wake up in the morning. We'll see.....

[Infinitely Baffled]

Exit polls suggesting Cons short of a majority. I'll believe it when I see it. Prety certain they will still have a majority when I wake up in the morning. We'll see.....

Maybe ... but they won't have a leader.
IB

[rdpx]

Well done Marco and Wrexham.

Labour hold.

Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

[hifinutt]

paul nuttall did not do well , no surprise there .

canterbury has been tory since ww1 but now lab ....amazing

poor old clegg is out .

snp not doing that well !

[hifinutt]

looking more like a hung parliament

ruth davidson looking very happy with her tory party gains in scotland :):):):)

[Spectral Morn]

Definitely a hung parliament. Slap it up May.

Locally the two opposite parties, both extremes have become even bigger so NI parliament is one with no middle ground, Sinn Fein and DUP in charge.... God help us, no chance now for reconciliation and I guess NI will be back to elections again as neither party will negotiate their differences to form a new Stormont assembly :(

[Oddball]

Yes , definately a bit of a mess but at least Tories will need to listen to others !!
And I know I shouldn' say it but cant wait to see the First Lady in Scotland

[Marco]

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/924/uLNvFW.jpg

:finger: :finger: :lol: :lol: :wave: :wave:

Marco.

[tapid]

Good night for you Marco. I saw that the tories failed in one of there target seats, Wrexham ? . Though its interesting to note that the tory share
of the vote nationally
was similar to that of one of Blairs wins and also Thatcher s. They failed to get a majority because were back to 2 party politics
the scribes say. best wishes

[Marco]

Well done Marco and Wrexham.

Labour hold.


Cheers, mate. Perhaps our two votes made all the difference [only kidding]? :eyebrows:

In Wales (where people have sense, lol), in terms of seats won, Labour HORSED the Tories 28 to 8.

Shame the same didn't happen in the rest of the country... BUT the fact is that May's gamble has spectacularly backfired, and the Tories have lost their majority. It's been a disastrous election for May the witch, which I'm absolutely delighted about! :upyours: :upyours: :yay: :yay:

Marco.

[Spectral Morn]

Cheers, mate. Perhaps our two votes made all the difference [only kidding]? :eyebrows:

In Wales (where people have sense, lol), in terms of seats won, Labour HORSED the Tories 28 to 8.

Shame the same didn't happen in the rest of the country... BUT the fact is that May's gamble has spectacularly backfired, and the Tories have lost their majority. It's been a disastrous election for May the witch, which I'm absolutely delighted about! :yay: :yay:

Marco.

Next Brexit :sofa:

[Marco]

Good night for you Marco. I saw that the tories failed in one of there target seats, Wrexham ? . Though its interesting to note that the tory share
of the vote nationally


Yup, largely because of Ruth Davidson's success in Scotland, who IMO is a far more capable, charismatic and credible politician than May [which is why she ousted 'big hitters' in Scotland, such Alex Salmond and Angus Robertson, from the SNP], and who, since we're unfortunately still going to have a Tory PM, should replace May, although sadly that's unlikely to happen.

Yes, Wrexham has remained Labour, which is good, but let's remember that I'm first and foremost a fan of Corbyn himself (and HIS policies) than necessarily Labour as a party. If they ever put another balloon, such as Miliband was, in charge in future, I'd no sooner vote Labour next time than Tory!!

Marco.

[Marco]

Next Brexit :sofa:

Don't really care too much about that, Neil. As they say: 'Che sara, sara'. Somehow we'll survive, and I suspect in due course will prosper.

At the moment, for me, it's all about GETTING IT RIGHT UP May, the Tories and the establishment, all of whom will be crying in their soup this morning at what could've been, if May had just stayed put where she was. So much for her battle cry of creating a "strong and stable" government...

Haha, what a joke. She's achieved the precise OPPOSITE! :doh:

The fact is, even though the Tories have 'won', May's disastrous election campaign [that's the result you get when you're fundamentally NOT a 'people person'], which in the process allowed the electorate to get to know *her* better, has simply served to showcase her ineptitude and shown her up for what she is: cold, clueless and CATASTROPHIC for the country.

Marco.

[petrat]

It really is a strange system, isn't it? Just saw some figures flash on the tv for Wales, showing (something like) 770,000 votes for Labour and 580,000 votes for the tories, which apparently translates to 28 seats vs 8 :scratch:

In the UK in general, it seems to me that many UKIP voters have returned back to the tories, and that the first-time voters (who were massively under-represented in the Brexit referendum) have finally turned out for Corbyn.

[Jimbo]

Cheers, mate. Perhaps our two votes made all the difference [only kidding]? :eyebrows:

In Wales (where people have sense, lol), in terms of seats won, Labour HORSED the Tories 28 to 8.

Shame the same didn't happen in the rest of the country... BUT the fact is that May's gamble has spectacularly backfired, and the Tories have lost their majority. It's been a disastrous election for May the witch, which I'm absolutely delighted about! :upyours: :upyours: :yay: :yay:

Marco.

Could not believe the exit poll last night but woke up to a great morning. Disaster for May and a great result for Corbyn. This was better than anything I could imagine having watched the campaign closely I can only say that not only did May bring this on herself, this was the worst run election campaign run by the tories in living history.

May did the unimaginable, she inflicted more damage on the Conservative party than Tony Blair did when he was leader.

Corbyn deserves all the plaudits he may get as he is a decent chap who is comfortable with the electorate and ran a well thought out campaign. Ok he did not win but he has increased his strength and stopped May dead in her tracks, let's hope she now goes quickly.

I could not imagine anyone worse than May running this country who arrogantly took the public for granted for her own selfish gain. Such a joy to see it go so horribly wrong for her.

She started out talking about the Labour Party being the party of chaos and has achieved far more chaos herself and now makes Brexit at least a little more likely to be a more negotiated affair with a more conciliatory outcome, however the storm clouds are already there with the possibility of her going and another leadership campaign and then another election. What a f&&iG mess and she has already started the clock ticking.

By the time we actually get to negotiate the alarm bell may be ringing. She could have delayed article 50 until after the election but no her party of chaos has with this election screwed up that decision with the outcome of this election.

Do people in this country now think the Conservative party can be trusted not only to run this country but negotiate for us in Brexit which was also something that did not need to happen but was also foisted on the people by Cameron, yes another Conservative disaster.

If this campaign election does not ring alarm bells with the public regarding the Conservatives and Brexit then we will be sleep walking over a cliff!

[Marco]

In the UK in general, it seems to me that many UKIP voters have returned back to the tories, and that the first-time voters (who were massively under-represented in the Brexit referendum) have finally turned out for Corbyn.

Don't forget the significance of the youth vote for Labour, Peter, which was considerable, who turned out in greater number than ever, and who aside from being seduced by the prospect of the abolition of tuition fees, could clearly see through the lies and insincerity of the Tories, and above all the insidious effect of their policies on ordinary working people.

It's therefore heartening, as long as Labour have Corbyn as leader, or someone like him with the same political outlook, that when the old fuddy-duddies, who largely make up the Tory vote, and whose voting habits are influenced so much by baggage that they carry from the past, are no longer of this earth, that the future of the country will be in the hands of people who can cut through the bullshit of the Tory brainwash and see the reality!

Let's hope that's the case, anyway... As for the here and now, with all the current uncertainty there is, I can see a second election taking place, sooner rather than later - and if it does - this time, with the momentum that they have behind them now, a majority win for Labour.

And that will almost certainly happen if May digs her disgusting [Beverley Feldmen designer heels] in, and stays on as PM!

Marco.

[chris@panteg]

The tories are changing their name to the Casino party, great result so many have seen through the media lies and an absolute car crash of a tory campaign and she's stubbornly clinging on.

[Spectral Morn]

It's all moot the DUP, those wonderful bastions of hatred, arrogance and bigotry are going to give the conservatives their majority... May going to the Queen at 12 to form her government.

[walpurgis]

It's all moot the DUP, those wonderful bastions of hatred, arrogance and bigotry are going to give the conservatives their majority... bastards the lot of them. May going to the Queen at 12 to form her government.

Can't see that working in the longer term. It might start out looking like a working arrangement, but I reckon the DUP would start digging their heels in and stymie the Tories at every turn. Another election might look the better option from May's point of view.

[hifinutt]

might lose altogether then !!!!

[walpurgis]

might lose altogether then !!!!

Quite likely.

[Marco]

might lose altogether then !!!!

If the Tories want a truly credible new leader, who can successfully take the party forward and perhaps win a re-election with an outright majority, then Ruth Davidson should get the top job, as reward for her superb performance in Scotland.

The fact that she wouldn't be a popular choice within the Tory party is a GOOD thing, as she's the least Tory-esque of the likely candidates, more like a normal person, and therefore I believe would 'soften' the hard-line Tory stance, of the likes of May and Davis, for the overall benefit of the country.

Plus she's young and SCOTTISH - two major pluses in my book, as someone born and brought up in Scotland, with a huge affection for the country and desire to protect its best interests, therefore for me, we need as many Scots in Westminster as possible, of any description, to help dilute existing 'pro-English mindedness'.

That said, I would far rather that WHEN (I don't believe if) a second election takes place, the Tories, whoever is their leader by then, get ROYALLY GUBBED, and we end up with a Labour majority, so that Corbyn can begin to rebuild the lives of the people, so cruelly pulled apart, after suffering for years from the sick effects of insidious Tory policies, and once again become dignified and fit for purpose for human beings.

Marco.

[farflungstar]

Si what have the Tories done for us? Nothing. Still in crisis. Introduced a referendum nobody asked for that destroyed Cameron. Now an election that will put power into the hands of an Irish party that is anti rights we have fought for. WTF. If May was truly thinking of the country and the people she would step down and allow Corbyn to form a government. I think she will step down later - to be replaced by our own Trumo - Boris the twit.

[Marco]

Yes, that is also likely - and that chinless-wonder, floppy-haired tosspot is arguably worse than May! :rolleyes:

That's why we need another election, ASAP, before it's too late, to capitalise on the current resurgence in support for Labour (as momentum is with them), which would likely result in Corbyn becoming our new PM.

Marco.

[RothwellAudio]

Si what have the Tories done for us? Nothing.
It seems to me that governments never do anything positive for the country - they only ever mess things up. All the wealth and prosperity is created by ordinary people going to work every day. The point of an election is to select the party that will mess things up the least.

[farflungstar]

People are innately selfish and greedy - it's in our genes and manipulated by government and the capitalist system.

I conducted a little experiment in one of my B2 classes the other day. I asked them 2 simple questions.

1 - what is the most divisive thing in society?

Everyone immediately said MONEY

2 - I asked them if they would agree to share money equally so that everyone had the same, enough for whatever they wanted within reason, and regardless of job or employment status.

Everyone immediately said NO, why should someone disabled and unable to work get the same as them.

This is the mentality of the majority of people.

[ianlenco]

What a beautiful day. May gets her just desserts and the new London Grammar album has just been delivered. Deluxe vinyl edition is remarkably quiet, just like May at the moment - bliss

[Macca]

Si what have the Tories done for us? Nothing. Still in crisis. Introduced a referendum nobody asked for .

Except for the 17,410,742 people who voted to leave the EU, you mean?

[petrat]

Except for the 17,410,742 people who voted to leave the EU, you mean?

Which was 26.7% of the UK's population at the time iirc.

[Stratmangler]

Which was 26.7% of the UK's population at the time iirc.

And your point is?
I know the answer is going be that a large percentage didn't vote at all. They should have got off their idle arses and voted. That they didn't is neither here nor there. By not voting they consented to whoever came out on top getting their way. That's the way democracy works.

[struth]

The ruskies had a good way. If you wanted change you voted. And got followed home and dragged away never to be seen again or if you were happy or sane just keep your head down and dig

[Marco]

People are innately selfish and greedy - it's in our genes and manipulated by government and the capitalist system.

I conducted a little experiment in one of my B2 classes the other day. I asked them 2 simple questions.

1 - what is the most divisive thing in society?

Everyone immediately said MONEY

2 - I asked them if they would agree to share money equally so that everyone had the same, enough for whatever they wanted within reason, and regardless of job or employment status.

Everyone immediately said NO, why should someone disabled and unable to work get the same as them.

This is the mentality of the majority of people.

And quite right too, Adrian, because that's NOT what it's about. What you've proposed to them is a form of 'soft communism', and their rejection of that doesn't necessarily make them selfish, merely pragmatic.

The unemployed disabled shouldn't get the SAME as someone in gainful employment, but they (together with every other ordinary man and woman in this country, including the homeless) should get MORE, and a MUCH FAIRER slice of the pie, than is currently the case - and with it, close the gap between the rich and poor. Furthermore, people who are more highly skilled in particular areas, should *always* be suitably rewarded and earn more than their lesser counterparts, as that is only right and fair.

Fundamentally, however, we need to give more to the 'have nots' and less to the 'haves', whilst ensuring that the right help is provided to all those who need it.

That's what I want to happen, and with it, create GREATER EQUALITY and a FAIRER SOCIETY, whilst continuing to reward our most talented individuals, who put into our country vastly more than they take out, and are so vital to making the UK a successful nation - but a successful nation alone is no good without it also being a caring and compassionate one!

Marco.

[Marco]

I hear that Labour are now also set to take the last seat in Kensington, which would be a HUGE (shock) victory for them, and a real smack in the mouth for the Tories! :clap: :clap:

Let's not forget that even though the Tories (with the help of the DUP) will form a makeshift government, that they have effectively LOST this election by coming out of it with a considerably reduced number of seats than they entered it with, and that's fundamentally because of May's vanity and arrogance in assuming that the opposite would happen, but also crucially because over 40% of the British people have said a resounding NO to continuing austerity, under the Tories, and that right now, WE NEED CHANGE.

Listening to the news earlier, where a group of young students were being interviewed and asked their opinion on how the election had gone, it was most interesting (and also heartening) when one of them said, rather significantly, that people of his age group wanted to 'register their dismay at the system', which is why they had turned out to vote in such numbers and send out that message to the government.

Long may that continue, and that our current and future generations are willing to stand up and fight against the system, and for what's right and just, as we cannot continue to allow the establishment to win!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE JOCKS THINKING!!????:steam::steam::eek::mental:

Great result and much better than anticipated but if it hadn't been for the jocks voting for the nasty scum party Corbyn would be PM today!

[tapid]

The tory candidate in Kensington is a huge Brexiteer, so not such a big shock in a massive remain area.
Corby and his mate talking this morning about forming a minority labour gov, ridiculous, numbers just
don't add up. There still 50 odds seats behind Tories . If john Mac s calculations are that poor perhaps
as well is not heading for number 11.

[rubber duck]

The tory candidate in Kensington is a huge Brexiteer, so not such a big shock in a massive remain area.

That didn't stop the return of Zac though. So more to it than just Brexit.

[rubber duck]

There still 50 odds seats behind Tories . If john Mac s calculations are that poor perhaps
as well is not heading for number 11.

Cheap shot and the same old broken record. Labour ran a positive campaign based on a popular manifesto that was fully costed and supported by prominent economists and academics.

[tapid]

Zac got in by a gnats though in an area where he has a huge personal following.

[tapid]

Fair point, just cound nt resist though ! best wishes

[Marco]

WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE JOCKS THINKING!!????:steam::steam::eek::mental:

Great result and much better than anticipated but if it hadn't been for the jocks voting for the nasty scum party Corbyn would be PM today!

I know, but that's largely the fault of the SNP for harping on about independence (much as I'm sympathetic to the cause) at completely the wrong time when folk had other things on their minds, coupled with Ruth Davidson skilfully capitalising on that.

S'ok, Jez, it's only delaying the inevitable, and after the forthcoming second election, a well-deserved Labour win! ;)

Marco.

[Beobloke]

WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE JOCKS THINKING!!????:steam::steam::eek::mental:
!

Turns out they're just as sick of hearing Nicola Sturgeon bleating on about a second Scottish independence referendum as the rest of us!

[struth]

Turns out they're just as sick of hearing Nicola Sturgeon bleating on about a second Scottish independence referendum as the rest of us!

yup that was it precisely. she was told.

[tapid]

Also there policies have proved not as popular as some folk thought they would. Thats the trappings of being in power, things
can so easily start to go unravel, ask the mo bot ( mrs May)

[Arkless Electronics]

I know, but that's largely the fault of the SNP for harping on about independence (much as I'm sympathetic to the cause) at completely the wrong time when folk had other things on their minds, coupled with Ruth Davidson skilfully capitalising on that.

S'ok, Jez, it's only delaying the inevitable, and after the forthcoming second election, a well-deserved Labour win! ;)

Marco.

Yep that's what we need to focus on now, especially making sure the young don't give up on their new found interest in politics!

Thing is that if the jocks were so anti independence and SNP than I would have though Labour would be the obvious way to vote.... the nasty party have never been popular in Scotland so for them to suddenly take so many Scottish seats is a shock!

Anyway mayhem is a seriously wounded lame beast PM now and I can't see her lasting long! I wouldn't be that surprised if she announced her resignation within a week or so... we can hope!

[Joe]

WHAT THE FUCK WERE THE JOCKS THINKING!!????:steam::steam::eek::mental:

Great result and much better than anticipated but if it hadn't been for the jocks voting for the nasty scum party Corbyn would be PM today!

The SNP used to be known as the 'Tartan Tories'. It would be wrong to assume their support came entirely from disgruntled Labour supporters.

[Marco]

The SNP used to be known as the 'Tartan Tories'. It would be wrong to assume their support came entirely from disgruntled Labour supporters.

Lol... Where did you get that one from?

Must be some kind of folklore, born from wishful thinking by a Tory, as every SNP supporter I know, and have known for years, when I used to live in Scotland, (much like me) DESPISED/DESPISES the Tories with a passion!!

Marco.

[struth]

it comes from way back in 79 when the 11 snp mps voted with Thatcher to bring down the Labour govt in vote of no confidence..think it was Callaghan

[struth]

I might add that it was Labour's own fault as they repeatedly reneged of a promise for a Sccottish Assembly in return for snp backing which was given many times. eventually they had enough and pulled the trigger.:)

[Marco]

it comes from way back in 79 when the 11 snp mps voted with Thatcher to bring down the Labour govt in vote of no confidence..think it was Callaghan

Ah I see, all before my time (in terms of being old enough to vote or be concerned with politics), however, any 'love-in' with the Tories certainly doesn't apply now! :nono:

Marco.

[struth]

Ah I see, all before my time (in terms of being old enough to vote or be concerned with politics), however, any 'love-in' with the Tories certainly doesn't apply now! :nono:

Marco.

Didnt apply then either i can assure you. Was pure spite ;)

[cyclopse]

And quite right too, Adrian, because that's NOT what it's about. What you've proposed to them is a form of 'soft communism', and their rejection of that doesn't necessarily make them selfish, merely pragmatic.

The unemployed disabled shouldn't get the SAME as someone in gainful employment, but they (together with every other ordinary man and woman in this country, including the homeless) should get MORE, and a MUCH FAIRER slice of the pie, than is currently the case - and with it, close the gap between the rich and poor. Furthermore, people who are more highly skilled in particular areas, should *always* be suitably rewarded and earn more than their lesser counterparts, as that is only right and fair.

Fundamentally, however, we need to give more to the 'have nots' and less to the 'haves', whilst ensuring that the right help is provided to all those who need it.

That's what I want to happen, and with it, create GREATER EQUALITY and a FAIRER SOCIETY, whilst continuing to reward our most talented individuals, who put into our country vastly more than they take out, and are so vital to making the UK a successful nation - but a successful nation alone is no good without it also being a caring and compassionate one!

Marco.

Lot of truth in this quote. Where are we at present? Board room pay off the scale, austerity doing long term damage to our public sector, cuts taking place in our schools, plans to privatise the health service, another increase in VAT, workers suffering who are on temporary, agency or zero hours contracts, tax cuts for the highest earners, a leader who delegates the leaders debate to an MP who lost her father two days before, refusal to go head to head on TV with leader of the opposition, what was forecast to be the greatest majority since Thatcher to a hung parliament, our children cannot afford to leave home due to a housing crisis and multiple u-turns on the manifesto.

And this is who will lead our country through the Brexit negotiations. God help us!

Cyclopse

[Arkless Electronics]

Lot of truth in this quote. Where are we at present? Board room pay off the scale, austerity doing long term damage to our public sector, cuts taking place in our schools, plans to privatise the health service, another increase in VAT, workers suffering who are on temporary, agency or zero hours contracts, tax cuts for the highest earners, a leader who delegates the leaders debate to an MP who lost her father two days before, refusal to go head to head on TV with leader of the opposition, what was forecast to be the greatest majority since Thatcher to a hung parliament, our children cannot afford to leave home due to a housing crisis and multiple u-turns on the manifesto.

And this is who will lead our country through the Brexit negotiations. God help us!

Cyclopse

Very true! Well said.

[mad-moon]

"Why can't everyone work together to fix the country?"

That's too much like common sense...





What I hate about politics is the division it always seems to bring up. Left/right, Labour/Tory, etc.

General Election time is particularly bad with the mud slinging :steam:

Why can't everyone work together to fix the country? It needs more business acumen and courageous decisions IMO.

[Marco]

Yup, Labour win Kensington, and for the first time ever, right in the heart of the establishment! Quality :D :thumbsup:

Marco.

[Macca]

a popular manifesto that was fully costed .

It's one of those irregular verbs:

My proposals are fully costed
Yours are estimated
He is just plucking figures out of the air.

[prestonchipfryer]

It's interesting to note how badly the SNP did in the election. Losing so many seats could possibly suggest that the Scottish electorate do not want another independence referendum. The Tory party picked up markedly as well gaining a dozen seats. I wonder what the future may hold now with Nicola Sturgeon seemingly being blown off course. Interesting times.

[chris@panteg]

Yup, Labour win Kensington, and for the first time ever, right in the heart of the establishment! Quality :D :thumbsup:

Marco.

Hi Marco
My jaw hit the floor on that news and it's still down there! This is seismic, something has changed die hard tories voting Labour and visa versa up north with labour voter's switching to the Tories, what is going on?

[struth]

Disenchantment in a word.

[chris@panteg]

I will say I was wrong about Jeremy Corbyn, I gave him no chance! A no hoper but it's now very clear he's given hope to a lot people, can it lead to anything?

I really don't know but something is happening, I think Brexit is a terrible mistake and I deeply regret my own decision to vote leave.

[Marco]

It's interesting to note how badly the SNP did in the election. Losing so many seats could possibly suggest that the Scottish electorate do not want another independence referendum. The Tory party picked up markedly as well gaining a dozen seats. I wonder what the future may hold now with Nicola Sturgeon seemingly being blown off course. Interesting times.

Nah, most of what happened was due to a natural rebalancing of the (abnormal) landslide victory they had in 2015, thus now reflecting a more realistic situation, although undoubtedly coupled by their mistake of making independence an agenda again at completely the wrong time, pre-Brexit.

Winning all but 3 seats in Scotland, as the SNP did in 2015, was never going to happen again (mostly due to the ineptitude of Labour at that time), so the slice of the vote/majority they have now is about right. They're still clearly the largest party in Scotland :)

As for the issue of independence, they'd do well to put that on the back burner for a bit, as outside of their staunch supporters, it's created a lot of division in Scotland, so Sturgeon needs to recognise that, put the matter aside for the time being, and play the waiting game accordingly, then tackle it again when the time right.

That issue definitely won't go away, and it certainly shouldn't either, because Scotland deserves to be free from insidious Westminster (English) control, and to profit FULLY from its natural resources (mainly North Sea oil), so that the country and its people can achieve their full potential, *but* as with anything else, there's a time and a place - and that time and place isn't now.

At some point in the future, however, and sooner rather than later, I believe that Scottish independence is destined to become a reality.

Marco.

[walpurgis]

I think Brexit is a terrible mistake and I deeply regret my own decision to vote leave.

Other way round for me. After much contemplation and some uneasiness, I voted stay. Now, I think 'leave' may be the better option. The EU is looking more shambolic by the moment. No doubt Britain will still be part of security sharing and decent trade deals can eventually be worked out.

[Marco]

Hi Marco
My jaw hit the floor on that news and it's still down there! This is seismic, something has changed die hard tories voting Labour and visa versa up north with labour voter's switching to the Tories, what is going on?

In terms of Kensington, hopefully it's folk finally 'waking up and smelling the coffee' [read as seeing through the Tory brainwash]!

What happened up north was largely some of Labour's more right-wing supporters connecting with a fellow Scot in Ruth Davidson, who is a charismatic character and a very good campaigner. Essentially, the Labour election 'pitch' up there wasn't Scottish-centric enough, unlike how Welsh-centric in comparison it was in Wales, which is why Labour did so well there.

What's MASSIVELY influential, in the final result in any general election, is how well the candidates, from the respective parties, 'connect' with the electorate during their campaign trails, which is one of the main reasons why May failed so dismally with hers, as she's an iceberg and about as far away from being a 'people person' as you could get!

Thus ultimately, the public picked up on that and voted accordingly. It's like the old saying goes in sales: 'People buy from people'; in short you have to LIKE or admire someone first, before you'll buy from them (or in this case vote) for them, and May is about as likeable as a malignant tumour.

Marco.

[Macca]

I really don't know but something is happening, I think Brexit is a terrible mistake and I deeply regret my own decision to vote leave.

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

[struth]

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabron and ching' tu madre! :D

[Marco]

We have no badges. In fact, we don't need badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges, you god-damned cabron and ching' tu madre! :D

Eh?? :scratch:

Is that another one of your 'in the know' jokes? ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Seriously though the flag pisses me off more than anything. Why does a trading bloc need a flag?

They are flying one outside of where I work. Come March 2019 if it has not been taken down I will be demanding it. If I'm still there in 2 years, obviously.

[Macca]

Eh?? :scratch:

Is that another one of your 'in the know' jokes? ;)

Marco.

'The Treasure Of The Sierra Madre' dude. come on, keep up!

[struth]

Eh?? :scratch:

Is that another one of your 'in the know' jokes? ;)

Marco.

A famous line fron the treasure of the sierra madre... thought martin would appreciate. Obviously not:)

[SquireC]

@ Macca

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

The thing is, it's the EU that looks organised and 'stable', ready for the negotiations to start, while we have no Govt., and probably a Brexit deal written by the DUP. The Irish will be the tail wagging the dog or else the Tories lose power.

You have to say though, May called it right. She said there would be a cobbled together coalition propped up by terrorist sympathising extremists. That's exactly what we have got.


Some items from a spoof newspaper that might lift the gloom (or spread more joy?)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/please-stay-while-we-savour-your-humiliation-britain-tells-may-20170609129137

And an insight into what the Queen said. Brilliant.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/my-idiot-sons-could-run-this-country-better-than-you-queen-tells-may-20170609129225

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/tories-hoping-for-constructive-relationship-with-creationist-homophobes-who-think-pope-is-satan-20170609129202

:lol:

[Macca]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=+your+stinking+flag+&view=detail&mid=F8790635EED611A4082BF8790635EED611A4082B&FORM=VIRE

[SquireC]

And for when Theresa goes, a glimpse of the future

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/man-who-cant-stop-talking-shite-clearly-ideal-for-important-negotiations-20170119120484

:lol:

[Macca]

@ Macca

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

The thing is, it's the EU that looks organised and 'stable', ready for the negotiations to start, while we have no Govt., and probably a Brexit deal written by the DUP. The Irish will be the tail wagging the dog or else the Tories lose power.

You have to say though, May called it right. She said there would be a cobbled together coalition propped up by terrorist sympathising extremists. That's exactly what we have got.


Some items from a spoof newspaper that might lift the gloom (or spread more joy?)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/please-stay-while-we-savour-your-humiliation-britain-tells-may-20170609129137

And an insight into what the Queen said. Brilliant.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/my-idiot-sons-could-run-this-country-better-than-you-queen-tells-may-20170609129225

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/tories-hoping-for-constructive-relationship-with-creationist-homophobes-who-think-pope-is-satan-20170609129202

:lol:

Oh the election thing is a total cluster-f**k I don't dispute that for a minute. I said it was a mistake to call an election right from the off. People make the most awful errors of judgement once they start to believe their own press. Watch it happen to Corbyn in the coming months. (If it doesn't I will start having some respect for him).

Yes, a complete mess and looks bad. Good job politicians don't actually run the country. Or negotiate anything. That's what the Civil Service is for.

[Marco]

A famous line fron the treasure of the sierra madre... thought martin would appreciate. Obviously not:)

Ah I see... I wouldn't have had a scooby! "Famous" only with those who are interested ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

'The Treasure Of The Sierra Madre' dude. come on, keep up!

Haha... Well, you know me for these things. Not interested in it, so know nowt about it!

Marco.

[Marco]

@ Macca

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

The thing is, it's the EU that looks organised and 'stable', ready for the negotiations to start, while we have no Govt., and probably a Brexit deal written by the DUP. The Irish will be the tail wagging the dog or else the Tories lose power.

You have to say though, May called it right. She said there would be a cobbled together coalition propped up by terrorist sympathising extremists. That's exactly what we have got.


Some items from a spoof newspaper that might lift the gloom (or spread more joy?)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/please-stay-while-we-savour-your-humiliation-britain-tells-may-20170609129137

And an insight into what the Queen said. Brilliant.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/my-idiot-sons-could-run-this-country-better-than-you-queen-tells-may-20170609129225

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/tories-hoping-for-constructive-relationship-with-creationist-homophobes-who-think-pope-is-satan-20170609129202

:lol:

Hahaha - funny as fuck!! :rofl: :rofl:

Marco.

[Macca]

I see May's special needs advisers have resigned with some mealy-mouthed excuses.

No bloody idea. How do these people get these jobs?

Everyone knows that in the manifesto and the campaign you promise jam today and even more jam tomorrow. Even Corbyn has sussed that out. Or one of his crew did anyway. Whatever you say in the manifesto or the campaign isn't legally binding, that's already been tested in the Courts.

When you get into office and someone complains that you haven't done something you promised, you just tell them it is being worked on and that something will be done. Even though in reality it isn't and it won't. Blair had that technique mastered.

[Joe]

I see May's special needs advisers have resigned with some mealy-mouthed excuses.

No bloody idea. How do these people get these jobs?

Everyone knows that in the manifesto and the campaign you promise jam today and even more jam tomorrow. Even Corbyn has sussed that out. Or one of his crew did anyway. Whatever you say in the manifesto or the campaign isn't legally binding, that's already been tested in the Courts..

May's equivalent to Corbyn's promises was the 'reduce immigration to the tens of thousands' pledge/promise/vague hope which she had failed deliver to in her years as Home Secretary, and which was only ever intended as bait for the more simple-minded UKIP demographic.

[Macca]

May's equivalent to Corbyn's promises was the 'reduce immigration to the tens of thousands' pledge/promise/vague hope which she had failed deliver to in her years as Home Secretary, and which was only ever intended as bait for the more simple-minded UKIP demographic.

Exactly. Where was the jam? Must say I didn't watch or read about any of the campaign since I find it tedious in the extreme but looking at the post mortem it seems there was barely some rancid margarine on offer from the Tory side, when they should have been proffering a selection of high quality preserves. Corby was always going to promise the earth, what's he got to lose?

The interesting thing is that even with May being rubbish and offering nothing and Corbyn promising to throw money at every possible demographic Labour was still way short of a majority. Even if the whole of Scotland had gone Labour they still wouldn't have made it.

[chris@panteg]

Exactly. Where was the jam? Must say I didn't watch or read about any of the campaign since I find it tedious in the extreme but looking at the post mortem it seems there was barely some rancid margarine on offer from the Tory side, when they should have been proffering a selection of high quality preserves. Corby was always going to promise the earth, what's he got to lose?

The interesting thing is that even with May being rubbish and offering nothing and Corbyn promising to throw money at every possible demographic Labour was still way short of a majority. Even if the whole of Scotland had gone Labour they still wouldn't have made it.

Yes but the tories fought a brilliant campaign in 2015 against perhaps the worst labour have ever offered and still only got a small majority.

[Macca]

Yes but the tories fought a brilliant campaign in 2015 against perhaps the worst labour have ever offered and still only got a small majority.

Fair point but Miliband was far from the worst Labour have offered. It was Brown before that against the newly de-toxified Tory brand and they only got a hung parliament. Against Brown! He was the worst thing I have ever seen in British politics. No redeeming feature at all. Then there was Kinnock. Then Foot. None of them were exactly an easy job for the PR men. With Blair, on the other hand, they had something to work with. Guess what? he wins comfortably three times running.

Hard for any party to get someone normal or who can at least appear normal as no-one normal would want the job to begin with.

Mood of the electorate has a lot to do with it and you can't leave that to chance if you want a decent majority. You have to manipulate the mood of the electorate. Corbyn attempted that and was partially successful. I don't know what May attempted but it looked liked nothing.

[Arkless Electronics]

You shouldn't. Don't listen to all the idiotic scare stories, The result will be a big fudge and everything will carry on as before. There really is no other possible outcome in the real world.

The important thing is we have drawn a line in the sand which will hopefully mean we will not drift along into becoming a region of a faceless European super-state. We'll never have the stupid currency and we won't have to fly their stinking flag anymore.

As always on political matters we're complete opposites! I want to see a European super state, a U.S.E if you like, together we are stronger and a threat to the USA.. I want the currency, the flag, the European army, the lot!

[walpurgis]

Come on Jez. You know it makes sense to turn England into Europe's isolationist, war mongering equivalent to North Vietnam. :eek:

[Macca]

As always on political matters we're complete opposites! I want to see a European super state, a U.S.E if you like, together we are stronger and a threat to the USA.. I want the currency, the flag, the European army, the lot!

I don't have a problem with a European super-state, I just don't want this country to be part of it and I don't see why it needs to be. I suspect you will still be able to go and live there if that's what you want. The Soviet Union never turned anyone away who wanted to go and live there. It was people who lived there who were wanting to leave that they were not too keen on.

[struth]

I don't see point in superstates. They please very few. Super tradeblocks and freedom of movement within bounds of availability and with no social benefits for a predefined period I have no problem with.

[Jimbo]

Since the Brexit referendum and its consequences on the Conservative party we have had an entertaining year or so with the culmination in a calamitous election campaign .

This entertainment however has just been the warm up act for the main show when Brexit actually starts to be negotiated.

Political pundits, the media and the public are going to have a roller coaster time they will never forget.

[walpurgis]

Political pundits, the media and the public are going to have a roller coaster time they will never forget.

I have visions of it all being incredibly dull and interminably boring.

[Jimbo]

I have visions of it all being incredibly dull and interminably boring.

We will see Geoff, it hasn't been so far when you look at the consequences it has already unleashed.

[Arkless Electronics]

I don't have a problem with a European super-state, I just don't want this country to be part of it and I don't see why it needs to be. I suspect you will still be able to go and live there if that's what you want. The Soviet Union never turned anyone away who wanted to go and live there. It was people who lived there who were wanting to leave that they were not too keen on.

Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do :)

[Macca]

Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do :)

Imagining it is easy and harmless. Trying to force it into existence in the real world is a terrible mistake, creates thousands of unintended consequences, and is playing with people's lives for purely egotistical reasons.

If it is ever going to happen it will happen at its own pace.

[Barry]

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"

[walpurgis]

Imagine there's no countries, it isn't hard to do :)

Yeah. Peace Man! ;)

http://i63.tinypic.com/xl9vmd.jpg

[Arkless Electronics]

"Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"


Yeah. Peace Man! ;)

http://i63.tinypic.com/xl9vmd.jpg

Love is all we need...:)

But what would you do if I sang out of tune? :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

Love is all we need...:)

But what would you do if I sang out of tune? :eyebrows:

Every time I put my finger on it, it slips away.

[Ninanina]

Yeah. Peace Man! ;)

http://i63.tinypic.com/xl9vmd.jpg

Yes exactly...

On the 'other' thingy... what a complete nightmare it turned out to be.... :doh: and some more :doh:

[walpurgis]

Has Boris set his sights on leadership?

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-leadership-push-is-gogogo-as-pressure-grows-on-theresa-may-a3562161.html

That'll be the tories sunk if he gets in.

[Macca]

Would not be a good move for him. It is a poisoned chalice at the moment. Brexit, no majority, relying on the DUP, not how I would want to start off as PM.

My strategy would be to have May hang on until March 2019 when Brexit finishes, she takes the blame and responsibility for that and is then sent to the Lords as a reward.

New Tory leader comes in, clean slate, calls an election 6 months later.

[struth]

he just calls another election with him up front.. he'd probably do better than May