SL1210 - SDS, Technics, Herbies's way or a combination?

[AlexM]

Hi,

First post in the Techiepedia for a long time.

I've just picked up an SDS Isoplatmat and Isocover soft TT mat (thanks to Mikeyb). I also have to hand a 3mm Funk acromat and a Herbie's way excellent foam mat, along with original technics rubber mat.

I am currently using the Acromat and Herbie's way mat as I need the height for the right VTA. Has anyone experimented with combinations of these mats?. I assume that the Techie platter will benefit from some damping, so some possible combos might be:

Platter -> Technics rubber mat-> SDS Isoplatmat

Platter -> Technics rubber mat -> SDS Isoplatmat -> SDS Isocover

Platter -> SDS Isoplatmat -> SDS Cover

... or any one of many combinations. I'd be interested to hear what other people are using and in which combinations? I can (and will) work through the permutations but would rather cut down on the to try list by discounting options that definitely don't work very well.

What do you all think?

Alex

[AlexM]

combo 1 - technics rubber mat, SDS Isoplatmat, SDS Isocover on trial now. I have adjusted the arm to be parallel to the record surface as before. It does sound nice and clean. Surface noice seems lower than I remember and there is a bit less of a 'honk' or 'pinched' quality to the mid range. Dynamics seem a bit better too. I like it!. The foam mat is quite small, so there is nearly a CM of the record unsupported, which seems odd.

Next combo will be Herbie's excellent mat on the platter, then the SDS Isoplat then the SDS Isocover. I hope that works well because the spindle will then be long enough for me to try with/without a record clamp.

A promising start...

Regards,
Alex

[Lynster]

I've tried most of these options and have settled simply on the SDS Isoplatmat on the standard platter with a Herbies 3.7 on top. Total thickness is fine and very happy with this combo that I've now left alone for some years. The only additional thing that may contribute is that I'd previously damped the platter magnet attachment with Blu Tac as described in this forum few years back which I found really worthwhile. I still have a cork mat, home made 3mm dense foam mat, an Isocover equivalent and the thick original rubber mat sitting in a drawer that were all part of my original playing around.

Perhaps I should comment that while experimenting, there was very little difference to my ears with some of the mats alone or in combo but the best sound usually involved the Herbies and Isoplatmat in some way that improved on the original rubber mat. I've also read glowing reports on a few other mats on this forum but have simply not had the time, money or really the desire to try them. They may well be better options out there but I'm happy. Love to hear what you find. :)

[krugdoktor]

Before getting a Mike New copper-ally platter I used a SDS-Herbie's combo which worked very well.
IMHO the SDS should go directly onto the metal platter which it damps extremely effectively. On top of the SDS you can experiment with various mats till you find one which lifts the record surface to a. convenient height and provides a good Interface between vinyl and platter.
Also the weight of platter plus various mats should match the weight of platter plus technics mat to not disturb the speed regulation too much

[AlexM]

Thank You both for your suggestions. I must admit that I hadn't considered using the sds isoplatmat directly on top of the alloy platter - I had assumed that it wouldn't damp it effectively without some sort of conforming layer between them to bond them together. I've liked the Herbie's way mat as a top may, so I'll compare that to the thin foam sds mat and see what sounds good. I'll let you know how I get on.

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[mikeyb]

Thank You both for your suggestions. I must admit that I hadn't considered using the sds isoplatmat directly on top of the alloy platter - I had assumed that it wouldn't damp it effectively without some sort of conforming layer between them to bond them together. I've liked the Herbie's way mat as a top may, so I'll compare that to the thin foam sds mat and see what sounds good. I'll let you know how I get on.

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That's why the sds platter is 285mm, it's designed to fit inside the technics platter when the rubber mat is removed. I used it this way with the neoprene mat on top of that.

[rubber duck]

That's why the sds platter is 285mm, it's designed to fit inside the technics platter when the rubber mat is removed. I used it this way with the neoprene mat on top of that.

That's interesting. Kevin from Kabusa once told me the Technics rubber mat is designed to sit on the lip/outside rim where the platter is most resonant.

[AlexM]

I read that too some time ago - i guess the main damping for the platter is the rubber coating bonded to the underside of the platter. I'm not sure how much additional damping is possible by placing a rubber mat on the raised edge of the platter.

[rubber duck]

Tap the edge of the platter with and without the rubber mat or any other mat. It will be obvious!

[Ianmac]

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49767-Internal-damping-of-stock-arm-experiences
Post 36
I had quite some time getting my SDS matt to perform the way my ears liked.
Final solution was to buy some STOPP carpet slip matt from IKEA, only a few £'s.( a 3mm sq silicon plastic net 1mm thick) I use this as a matt between the Techie platter and the SDS and on the SDS top to mate with the disc.
On my Copper "SDS" I use it again between the Techie platter and the copper with a rubber matt on top of the copper.
Much trial and error needed but at the price of STOPP it was a no brainer for me.

[AlexM]

Thanks Ian and RD,

I am currently having a listen with the SDS and Herbie's way, without a another mat under the SDS. First disk on was Yello - Stella and wow! suddenly lots and lots (possibly too much) of bass. Sounds promising, but a little ponderous. I then noticed that the SDS carrier on spinning when I stopped the platter, in the manner of the wheels of an LA gangster's ride with spinners :).

That obviously can't be right - if there is sod all contact between the platter and the mat then nothing much is going to be damped, but maybe also less is transmitted. Anyway, I added my Mitchell engineering clamp to lock the assembly together. Aahh... now we're getting somewhere!. Still very nice bass weight, but less bloat and it all seems like it's under much better control.

I'm listening now to Don Grusin Sticks and Stones, which features a lot of quite prominent low bass on the DX7. I notice that the low, low notes are ringing out and very nicely extended. I've not heard bass like that out of my combo before - I always thought it sounded a little lightweight and thin before. this is a very marked difference indeed. Bass is now solid and deep, and timing nicely too.

Unfortunately my experiment was 'contaminated' as I noticed that the tracking weight of my cartridge was set way, way too high. I reset it by 'floating' the arm, setting dial indicator to zero and then setting the tracking to the recommended 1.8g. God only knows how it got screwed up or how long it has been like that, but it was probably tracking 3+ grams :eek::eek::eek: It was overstressing the suspension and moving the armature away from the generator - no wonder it was sounding rubbish :doh::doh:.

I'm going to carry on a bit more fiddling, but am happy bunny for now. I will try an under mat to see what effect coupling the SDS to the platter better will have. I may also try some double sided sticky tape, or vaseline.

Cheers,
Alex

[krugdoktor]

Maybe your SDS is slightly dished (mine is). Try turning the SDS over. Also double sided tape helps (should be very thin and only used on 3-4 small spots. The SDS damps the platter very effectively which is amazing considering the lightweight nature of the SDS but only if there is metal-to-metal contact between platter and SDS.
Of course vaseline is another valid alternative but also only tiny spots!
Greetings from Vienna
Michael

[AlexM]

Yes, it does sit much better on the other side, at least the platter and mat are now rotating at the same weight. I think some adhesive tape might be good - I'll experiment.

Regards,
Alex

[Lynster]

Yes you've reminded me that my SDS was slightly dished as well and that it seats well and doesn't spin when the 'correct' way up. I also use a weight as my Mike New bearing can easily handle it so haven't needed to resort to tape attachment however thin. Really tight base and detailed sound in general.:)

[rubber duck]

I'd be concerned if the SDS sat inside the rim of the platter and didn't make proper contact on top of this. If it's dished outwards, turning it upside down will not ensure full contact with the platter, which surely means that the platter will not be properly damped. Adhesive tape will only prevent the SDS from slipping but not ensure it is flat.

[krugdoktor]

As written before the SDS should make good large area contact with the platter (metal on metal). If it is dished (usally only very slight) and sits inside the raised lip of the platter a little pressure on the center of the record (weight or Michell clamp) should be enough.
A simple test is to tap the platter on the edge, if it rings, reverse the SDS, tap again, then choose the quieter side. Slippage should not be a problem, if so, three or four "points" of a (small!) amount of vaseline should suffice.
Anyway the SDS-Herbie's combo is a good one. Still a Mike New platter and bearing is a LOT better. [emoji6]
Greetings from Vienna
Michael

[rubber duck]

Surely a better tap test would be compare the SDS with the original thick rubber mat? I haven't tried the SDS but I would be very surprised if the platter is better damped with the SDS. Perhaps someone with the SDS and original rubber mat can try this and report back?

[krugdoktor]

I tried it way back then. The recomendation then was to use the Herbie's on the platter without any additional damping.
This did not work because the height adjustment of the tonearm did not go low enough. Also the "tap-test" produced a pronounced ringing. The ringing was reduced with the original heavy rubber mat (and the sound was better) BUT adding the SDS under the Herbie's was a revelation.
After first unpacking the SDS I was underwhelmed because it was so light and "flimsy", but as always the proof is in the listening and the SDS-Herbie's combo was a lot better than the thick rubber mat (which was btw a lot better than felt or an old Audio Technica ceramic mat).
To make matters worse, now I use an SAEC aluminium mat on the MN platter and this is the best mat I've ever had! Unfortunately the SAEC does not fit inside the rim of the original platter.
Greetings from Vienna
Michael

[Cycleallday]

Yes you've reminded me that my SDS was slightly dished as well and that it seats well and doesn't spin when the 'correct' way up. I also use a weight as my Mike New bearing can easily handle it so haven't needed to resort to tape attachment however thin. Really tight base and detailed sound in general.:)

I have never encountered an SDS mat but being an engineer I know my steel. If the mat is dished one side then it is dished the other (concave v convex). In either state putting tape or any other non adhesive between it and the cast alloy platter is a waste to time - once bent steel will not straighten and will simply pull away from the taped bond. If sds needs direct contact to work it must be perfectly flat to allow a weight/friction contact over the whole of its surface area or be properly bonded to the alloy. If you have a dished mat return it to sds as they are obviously charging a high price for a perfect disc and yours is not..

[Lynster]

If you have a dished mat return it to sds as they are obviously charging a high price for a perfect disc and yours is not..

The term 'dished' is probably a bit over the top but I was responding to another member who had previously used the term. The difference would be only a few thou at most and only light finger pressure is needed to ensure full contact one way and no pressure the other so the mat may as well sit the latter way up. As I understand it, the platters are cast and not always surface perfect either (which doesn't matter with a conventional mat) but with even with the weight of the record itself let alone a record weight, the SDS mat and platter contact well. In any case the point of the thread was how the combination sounds and that's excellent so mine won't be going back!:)

[Yomanze]

Tap the edge of the platter with and without the rubber mat or any other mat. It will be obvious!

Indeed. I used an acrylic platter on my SL1210, killed the ringing stone dead.

[AlexM]

Hi Everyone

To conclude feedback on my experiment I have found the best sound seems to be with the SDS mat (the right way up), and Herbie's way mat on top.

There seems to be a slight step in the spindle that stops the sds mat sitting completely flat against the platter - I guess the precise height of the platter will vary very slightly depending on the mating of the hole in the platter to the bearing spindle taper. If the sds mat is slightly dished, it means that it sits on the perimeter of the platter whereas it doesn't the other way up.

Anyway, i went through a full setup - alignment, tracking weight, vta and azimuth and it really is sounding good now. It's a very worthwhile improvement and everything now gels nicely where it sounded a little thin in the mids and bloated in the bass.

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Regards,
Alex



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[Clive197]

Indeed. I used an acrylic platter on my SL1210, killed the ringing stone dead.

Neil, I'm interested to understand how you got the acrylic platter to work. I'm assuming that you somehow screwed/bolted the magnetic ring that is part of the original platter to the underside of the acrylic one but doesn't that make the platter ride high?

[Yomanze]

Neil, I'm interested to understand how you got the acrylic platter to work. I'm assuming that you somehow screwed/bolted the magnetic ring that is part of the original platter to the underside of the acrylic one but doesn't that make the platter ride high?

Oops, I meant mat, or 'platter mat'... :P

http://srm-tech.co.uk/epages/4c008923-2265-416e-a207-cc9dd8b06028.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/4c008923-2265-416e-a207-cc9dd8b06028/Products/APM1

I used tiny tiny blobs of blutack to fix to the technics platter & killed all ringing stone dead.