Vintage Tuners and the Aerial you use ?

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Guys


As some of you are aware I am/have starting my tuner mega review. Very early days yet, but the combatants are now all in, and an interesting discovery has made about my choice of aerial, which makes things a wee bit more complicated than I thought.

General wisdom would suggest a nice big multi element aerial, mounted outside or in the loft is the ideal. These would all be of the 75 ohm type, using co-ax cable and an F Type or Belling Lee connector for hook up to the tuner. Well it seems that if you are using a late 60s or early to mid 70s tuner that might not be the best way.

Many of these tuners were actually designed to work just as well or better with a 300 Ohm cable aerial (the type we usually call Wet String). So if you use a tuner of this sort of vintage (with good sensitivity and selectivity), and live close to the transmitter, then I think you owe it to yourself to try it out. A 300 Ohm aerial will only cost you a few quid and the results may shock you.

This came to light after doing some research about a tuner in for test, a classic Sony. It like many of its early competitors prefer a 300 Ohm aerial, over a 75 Ohm. You can imagine my shock when the signal strength VU meter indicated the same levels of strength, as I was getting from the 5 element Yagi in the loft...and this from what I would view as a piece of rubbish wire. Oh yes sound quality...better too.

I will now be trying both types of aerials during this test period with all the early tuners....300 Ohm aerial now installed, in the downstairs listening room where the listening tests will be done.

So give it a try with your own tuner and let me know what you think of the results. This is not just about signal strength, but sound quality.


Regards D S D L

[The Grand Wazoo]

Well, they put both connectors on there for a reason, Neil & those Japanese guys knew their way round a tuner in those days! I swear some of those tuners could pick up a good signal with a wet fart!!
Somehow, though they never managed to pass on their wisdom.

Back when I was buying tuners like they were going out of fashion I used to try both & had several aerial options available to me. I made a few 300 Ohm types too, much better than those you buy now.
I usually found that the 75 ohm type was more stable & less prone to variations caused by weather conditions (I assumed).

[Spectral Morn]

Well, they put both connectors on there for a reason, Neil & those Japanese guys knew their way round a tuner in those days! I swear some of those tuners could pick up a good signal with a wet fart!!
Somehow, though they never managed to pass on their wisdom.

Back when I was buying tuners like they were going out of fashion I used to try both & had several aerial options available to me. I made a few 300 Ohm types too, much better than those you buy now.
I usually found that the 75 ohm type was more stable & less prone to variations caused by weather conditions (I assumed).


What did you use for your 300 Ohm Aerial Chris ?

I am learning so much during this project, but fully realise I have much still to discover.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

Neil, you're quite correct. Bring back to measurement led HiFi Choice tuner group trests. All this was thoroughly gone into and sound quality was referred to master-tape into an FM modulator and then back through the tuner. I remember some Yamaha tuners and receivers where the replacement models didn't work properly on the 75 Ohm connections, yet the 300 Ohm ones were fine. The previous models were fine on both...:scratch:

Amazing how some tuners sssplitched and sssplatched their way along in sound quality, although the better ones are the mostly the ones favoured by the subjectivists still..

[The Grand Wazoo]

Neil,
I used to use the ladder type 300 ohm cable which is like your wet string aerial, but has slotted holes between the conductors this seemed to be better quality than the usual type. Mine had black insulation – like this:
http://www.hamradiosupplies.co.uk/coax-cable/300-ohm-ladder-feed-slotted-open-wire-feeder-10-meter/prod_38.html
Not where I bought it from at the time but I used to get it from ham radio type shops like this one.
The beauty of building your own is that you can go big, making it any size you want (or can afford, or can accommodate) and you can make it the perfect size for your favoured station.
This is a good but basic article – it gives you the maths for finding the ideal length.
http://www.cyberpoet.net/writes/web/infwiz/spant.html

[Spectral Morn]

Neil,
I used to use the ladder type 300 ohm cable which is like your wet string aerial, but has slotted holes between the conductors this seemed to be better quality than the usual type. Mine had black insulation – like this:
http://www.hamradiosupplies.co.uk/coax-cable/300-ohm-ladder-feed-slotted-open-wire-feeder-10-meter/prod_38.html
Not where I bought it from at the time but I used to get it from ham radio type shops like this one.
The beauty of building your own is that you can go big, making it any size you want (or can afford, or can accommodate) and you can make it the perfect size for your favoured station.
This is a good but basic article – it gives you the maths for finding the ideal length.
http://www.cyberpoet.net/writes/web/infwiz/spant.html

Thanks Chris

I will look into it.


Regards D S D L

[Mike Reed]

Excuse my higgorance here, but having had some (but not much) experience and frustration in the past with 300 ohm screw terminals (usually) and 75 ohm coax, I'd like to ask:

Didn't a thing called a 'balun' convert 300 to 75 ohm (I don't remember it the other way round)?

Wasn't the gradual take-over of 75ohm coax and directional arrays because of the far better capture properties afforded over the 'piece of string'? This latter only worked in strong signal areas and did nothing for ghosting, birdies and intrusive unwanted signals.

Neil, you talk about a 'Yagi'. I thought this was a stacked arrangement of collectors more in use for TV reception. As I've only had 4, 6, 8 and 23 element Ron Smith aerials in my life, I can't imaging your array.

However, pre 1965 stereo tuners may have had circuitry that definitely favoured 300 ohms; someone with a technical bent may be better able to assess this possibility.

[Spectral Morn]

Excuse my higgorance here, but having had some (but not much) experience and frustration in the past with 300 ohm screw terminals (usually) and 75 ohm coax, I'd like to ask:

Didn't a thing called a 'balun' convert 300 to 75 ohm (I don't remember it the other way round)?

Wasn't the gradual take-over of 75ohm coax and directional arrays because of the far better capture properties afforded over the 'piece of string'? This latter only worked in strong signal areas and did nothing for ghosting, birdies and intrusive unwanted signals.

Neil, you talk about a 'Yagi'. I thought this was a stacked arrangement of collectors more in use for TV reception. As I've only had 4, 6, 8 and 23 element Ron Smith aerials in my life, I can't imaging your array.

However, pre 1965 stereo tuners may have had circuitry that definitely favoured 300 ohms; someone with a technical bent may be better able to assess this possibility.

Hi Mike

Yes you are correct a Balun will convert a 300 Ohm ribbon aerial to a 75 Ohm connection, you are also right in saying that Tuner aerial designs became more focussed on 75 Ohm connection because of exactly the reasons you state. However pre 1974 tuners (possibly later too) were, or so it seems designed to favour the 300 Ohm ribbon aerial and thus give better results and sound.

As a prelude to my tuner comparison review I have been gathering up as much info as I can, and it seems from what I have read so far that this quirk of design seemed to go into the 70's longer than I might have thought. A number of classic highly regarded Japanese tuners, will or so it is written sound better on a 300 Ohm aerial. I hope to clarify that during my review.

One of the main reason for this project is to give a UK slant to what for the most part is American or European points of view. I am not challenging what has been written elsewhere, as such, but I want to find out for myself, and share my results with a UK point of view.

One other area of contested wisdom, is that the Leak Trough-Line is one of the best tuners available. Now I am a fan of this tuner, but consistently many claim its not that good...I aim to see if thats true or not.

The aerial I use was described to me as being a Yagi design, though not a Yagi itself...photos of it are in SOG "Thats a big one"


Regards D S D L

[Rare Bird]

Am i missing something here, is it gospel that FM boadcast is history within 5 years?

I don't think i could be bothered with all this for such short term & why the hell people are paying a kings ranson for say vintage tuners is beyond me!

Sorry for coming across as a bummer

[Spectral Morn]

Am i missing something here, is it gospel that FM boadcast is history within 5 years?

I don't think i could be bothered with all this for such short term & why the hell people are paying a kings ranson for say vintage tuners is beyond me!

Sorry for coming across as a bummer


Hi Andre

No not at all. However recent events may lead to FM going on longer than 5 years (see Hi-Fi World last month). A number of radio broadcasters are rebelling against the BBC led switch off.

Even if FM is switched off in 5 years (very doubtful) I will continue to use FM till then. 5 years is long enough time, to make an exercise like this still imho worthwhile.


Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

If the BBC gets broken up as I believe I read somewhere that this may become a possibility, the threatened switch-off may not happen at all. How many NEW cars are being supplied with DAB radios in them? Also, what of the threatened far superior DAB+ system that should answer many of the current criticisms and is totallt incompatible with current DAB stuff?????

[The Grand Wazoo]

Am i missing something here, is it gospel that FM boadcast is history within 5 years?

I don't think i could be bothered with all this for such short term & why the hell people are paying a kings ranson for say vintage tuners is beyond me!

Sorry for coming across as a bummer

Yes Andre,
I think you have missed something mate!
Let's assume the switch-off does go ahead as we're told. Let's assume that it will be in 5 years. Let's assume you don't own a decent tuner now.

You can find yourself a really very good vintage unit for £200. That's £40 per year for the 5 year period. The software is free.

Compare that with a subscription to Spotify for instance - £120 per year.

Now go & look at the prices that some really excellent, but slightly lower quality tuners are fetching. - £30 or £40 - less in some cases for really solid performers. An investment of under £10 per year is 4 pints.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it - Now is the very best time to be investing in a tuner.

[Spectral Morn]

Yes Andre,
I think you have missed something mate!
Let's assume the switch-off does go ahead as we're told. Let's assume that it will be in 5 years. Let's assume you don't own a decent tuner now.

You can find yourself a really very good vintage unit for £200. That's £40 per year for the 5 year period. The software is free.

Compare that with a subscription to Spotify for instance - £120 per year.

Now go & look at the prices that some really excellent, but slightly lower quality tuners are fetching. - £30 or £40 - less in some cases for really solid performers. An investment of under £10 per year is 4 pints.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it - Now is the very best time to be investing in a tuner.

And all the free recordings one can make as well, to RtR tape, cassette, mini disc, CDR, PC/Mac etc.


Regards D S D L

[Themis]

Am i missing something here, is it gospel that FM boadcast is history within 5 years?
Does this mean that the FM band will be forbidden to radio stations in UK in 5 years ? :scratch:

[Spectral Morn]

Does this mean that the FM band will be forbidden to radio stations in UK in 5 years ? :scratch:

Our national broadcaster, the BBC and the government were working to that aim, but it is stalling.... Hopefully FM will go on for much longer...I hope.


Regards D S D L

[Themis]

Well, you'll go back to the age of illegal FM broadcasting, then ? How exciting !!! :)

[Mike Reed]

I shall will FM to continue to eternity. Even listening to the old radios in the fifties and early sixties, before stereo, was a marked improvement on ANY AM broadcast.

Stereo FM was the icing on the cake. Can't remember when in the sixties it came in, but tuners were quite sophisticated, with onboard decoders (encoders?) in the latter sixties years.

'Sounds of the Seventies' in '71 or so was a revelation to tape from, let alone listen to.

[Rare Bird]

Our national broadcaster, the BBC and the government were working to that aim, but it is stalling.... Hopefully FM will go on for much longer...I hope.


Regards D S D L

Well BBC ought to work on TV licencing while there at it. :steam:

[Spectral Morn]

Well after a few days fruitless searching for 300 Ohm cable and WF-100 75 Ohm cable among real shops, I had to buy on-line. I could not believe no-body had this stuff to sell and Maplins cables were crap and way to dear....they wanted £1.70 for cheap nasty looking 300 Ohm cable and £3 a M for air gap Sat cable (didn't look like they had enough for what I wanted anyway).

You try to support real shops and get nothing for your trouble :doh::(

Regards D S D L

[DSJR]

Listening to Rock as well as classical in the mid seventies could be amazing and even the rumbly old gates decks, Gray arms and G800's (replaced by SC35C's) sounded really good. I believe the Beeb had EMT's for transcription purposes and used V15 III's (in SME arms?) for proper record playing where cueing wasn't involved IIRC. Mind you, the Beeb used all sorts at one time or another.

[Barry]

Well after a few days fruitless searching for 300 Ohm cable and WF-100 75 Ohm cable among real shops, I had to buy on-line. I could not believe no-body had this stuff to sell and Maplins cables were crap and way to dear....they wanted £1.70 for cheap nasty looking 300 Ohm cable and £3 a M for air gap Sat cable (didn't look like they had enough for what I wanted anyway).

You try to support real shops and get nothing for your trouble :doh::(

Regards D S D L

How much 75 Ohm cable do you need Neil?

Regards

[Mike Reed]

[QUOTE=Dalek Supreme D L;98055 .......... and Maplins cables were crap and way too dear....

Regards D S D L[/QUOTE]

I have reservations about Craplins. I was recommended a multimeter recently for a specific purpose and realised when I got home that the one thing I wanted (continuity) was the only thing it didn't do!

They don't, it seems, sell anything which can test valves.

They are illiterate. Big notice in the window last Saturday stated

' APOLOGY'S for........'

I've had a few unsatisfying experiences in the past, but hey! They're the only game in town. Where have all the little electronics shops gone?

[Kris]

I remember when I bought my FM tuner it had only an F socket. This was before satellite TV and I'd never seen an f socket before, nor knew what one was. So I dropped into the local BT Telecom workshop, and they drew a blank as well. So I asked My radio Ham friend. He put me right!

I did offer my (unusual) tuner to DSDL for review but unfortunately we don't live anywhere near each other. Great Pity!

Kris.

[Spectral Morn]

I remember when I bought my FM tuner it had only an F socket. This was before satellite TV and I'd never seen an f socket before, nor knew what one was. So I dropped into the local BT Telecom workshop, and they drew a blank as well. So I asked My radio Ham friend. He put me right!

I did offer my (unusual) tuner to DSDL for review but unfortunately we don't live anywhere near each other. Great Pity!

Kris.

Indeed you did, and indeed it is a pity we live so far apart. However the offer warmed my heart...you are a gentleman. Thank you.

I got the 300 Ohm cable from a Ham supplier....they know a lot about radios, Fm and valves. Many still use rigs with valves. My dads rig is solid state, but with a valve power supply. He is into amateur radio.


Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

I have reservations about Craplins. I was recommended a multimeter recently for a specific purpose and realised when I got home that the one thing I wanted (continuity) was the only thing it didn't do!

They don't, it seems, sell anything which can test valves.

They are illiterate. Big notice in the window last Saturday stated

' APOLOGY'S for........'

I've had a few unsatisfying experiences in the past, but hey! They're the only game in town. Where have all the little electronics shops gone?

Indeed..where are they ? I visited one and they could not help me. I searched for a couple of sat install companies I used to use years ago, when In the brown goods trade...gone. All very depressing.


Regards D S D L

[Spectral Morn]

How much 75 Ohm cable do you need Neil?

Regards

PM sent.


Regards D S D L

[DirectDrive_Gordon]

Hi Andre

No not at all. However recent events may lead to FM going on longer than 5 years (see Hi-Fi World last month). A number of radio broadcasters are rebelling against the BBC led switch off.

Even if FM is switched off in 5 years (very doubtful) I will continue to use FM till then. 5 years is long enough time, to make an exercise like this still imho worthwhile.


Regards D S D L

Hi Neil, The BBC are now saying that FM will continue but only for ultra-local or "community" stations (one can imagine how rubbish they will be!). However, the Government's digital radio strategy is in such a mess (caused by the too early adoption of crappy DAB when virtually every other country in the world wanted little or nothing to do with it) that I think FM as we know it will continue well into the future (I would but money on DAB being switched off before the BBC radio 1/2/3/4 stations stop broadcasting on FM!).

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Neil, The BBC are now saying that FM will continue but only for ultra-local or "community" stations (one can imagine how rubbish they will be!). However, the Government's digital radio strategy is in such a mess (caused by the too early adoption of crappy DAB when virtually every other country in the world wanted little or nothing to do with it) that I think FM as we know it will continue well into the future (I would but money on DAB being switched off before the BBC radio 1/2/3/4 stations stop broadcasting on FM!).

We live in hope Gordon, we live in hope.


Regards D S D L

[Techno Commander]

I have just managed to score a pristine Marantz 2100 off the bay for £25, which I consider a bargain. It sounds far more open and inviting than my more "advanced" Technics Quartz Synthesized jobbie, which is heading to the local car boot.

It also wins far more brownie points for looks as well. :)