In search of SCALE, the ever amazing ESL57.

[Firebottle]

OK, this is in Past Masters as the main back end transducers (speakers) are my veritable Quad ESL57.

As reported on the MiBO thread the ESL57 can do a pretty remarkablbe (wine overload - I could have corrected it, but though it more amusing to leave it) job as PA speakers :eek:

Shirley was out this morning and I was playing 'Pacific AM' from side C of the new Yello album 'Toy'.
Now for those that know this track it has SCALE in spades. No need to pretend, I whacked the volume up :D.

By jimminy what an experience :mental:
I have plenty of power on tap, plus a rather good sub that extends the bass response Waaaay down. Absolutely sublime SCALE to the performance.

In fact it is so good I do have a small problem, if I whack the volume up too much I get airbourne feedback from the sub into the TT deck/arm/cartridge (don't know which) that sets the sub cone off at huge amplitude at a very low frequency, say about 3Hz :scratch:

Scale of performance = wow.

[walpurgis]

Put an LF filter in?

[Firebottle]

Yes I've thought that might be needed Geoff :thumbsup:

[Barry]

Well at least it shows your system has a response down to 3Hz. (Good job the resonance is not at 7Hz though!)

[Jimbo]

OK, this is in Past Masters as the main back end transducers (speakers) are my veritable Quad ESL57.

As reported on the MiBO thread the ESL57 can do a pretty remarkablbe (wine overload - I could have corrected it, but though it more amusing to leave it) job as PA speakers :eek:

Shirley was out this morning and I was playing 'Pacific AM' from side C of the new Yello album 'Toy'.
Now for those that know this track it has SCALE in spades. No need to pretend, I whacked the volume up :D.

By jimminy what an experience :mental:
I have plenty of power on tap, plus a rather good sub that extends the bass response Waaaay down. Absolutely sublime SCALE to the performance.

In fact it is so good I do have a small problem, if I whack the volume up too much I get airbourne feedback from the sub into the TT deck/arm/cartridge (don't know which) that sets the sub cone off at huge amplitude at a very low frequency, say about 3Hz :scratch:

Scale of performance = wow.

Errr listened to Pacific Am tonight on DAVE and BLU 2 M-scaler and as you can imagine Alan it is has scale to die for. I thought wow that was mind blowing until Steve put on a track from Electrified album which was where the original track came from. Pacific am is a version that was watered down for Toy . The track Steve played was beyond anything you could imagine! Seriously good stuff. Glad you enjoying it on your system.:)

[alphaGT]

Is the feedback airborne or coming through the floor/rack? Does relocating the sub change anything? Or perhaps some isolation under the 'Table?


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[Firebottle]

I've been experimenting with the orientation of the sub, it is normally downward firing.
With it front firing it doesn't have the same augmentation as downwards, so instead I have reversed it so that the port is further from the wall, instead of adjacent.
I think this helps, anyway it's getting too loud :rolleyes:

[User211]

Doesn't the phono stage have a subsonic filter?

You should find the sub goes nuts with vinyl anyway if the phono stage LF filtering slope is shallow? My ML Descent used to. My Apogee panels simply show how appalling vinyl is at LF. showing all sorts of movement that just isn't part of the source caused by ripples in the vinyl, pops and clicks etc. Indeed, you can watch the same track being playing digitally and the panel excursions make visible sense. Not so with vinyl.

Sorry vinyl lovers... please don't take this as a bait. Just stating facts. And you can see it in cones too.

I never used my ML sub when playing vinyl unless inebriated. The Apogee panels go nuts with sub 20Hz input from vinyl, right down to very low LF.

[Firebottle]

No filter Justin, I 'just let it flow' :D

Yes the cone does wobble about a bit when playing vinyl :eek:

[User211]

I think that's what my Trichord Diablo does based on the visible evidence.

The Accuphase monos have subsonic filters.

[Arkless Electronics]

I never fit subsonic filtering on any phono stage I build. I'm dead against it!

[Macca]

Surprised by that. Doesn't having to deal with the low frequency sludge put a strain on the amplifier?

[Arkless Electronics]

Surprised by that. Doesn't having to deal with the low frequency sludge put a strain on the amplifier?

Not really no. I'm surprised you're surprised! I wouldn't entertain a phono stage with subsonic filtering! and before you ask, cos the filter is a bad idea for the SQ.

[Macca]

Even if it only filters below 20Hz?

The only reason I'm surprised is because I don't know or understand the technicalities, just going off what I've read.

[Arkless Electronics]

Even if it only filters below 20Hz?

The only reason I'm surprised is because I don't know or understand the technicalities, just going off what I've read.

The lowest frequencies in music would be the 16Hz from pipe organ..... This coincides with the highest arm cart resonance frequencies. Can't remove one without the other! More generally, a filter at 20Hz would start to effect LF phase from about 200Hz down and if the filter turnover is at 20Hz it will probably be a touch down at even 40Hz. I find this noticeable.
The subsonics we would like to remove are just too close to the lowest bass frequency we want to keep at the end of the day, and the steeper we make the filter the worse in non linear phase, transient response and ringing the filter will be ;)

Some will counter with Doppler distortion and varying position of voice coil affecting speaker linearity.... but I know which compromise I prefer:) Bass always sounds lacking in ultimate extension and somehow just not quite right to me when a subsonic filter is in place.

[danilo]

Interesting info.
Once had a unit with subsonic filtering (switchable) I never liked it, finding that when the filter was on Bass seemed as gelded.
In truth I didn't keep that thing long as it wasn't overly good in any respect.
At least now I have some inkling as to the why.

[Arkless Electronics]

Interesting info.
Once had a unit with subsonic filtering (switchable) I never liked it, finding that when the filter was on Bass seemed as gelded.
In truth I didn't keep that thing long as it wasn't overly good in any respect.
At least now I have some inkling as to the why.

A good description of the subjective effect!

[Barry]

The lowest frequencies in music would be the 16Hz from pipe organ..... This coincides with the highest arm cart resonance frequencies. Can't remove one without the other! More generally, a filter at 20Hz would start to effect LF phase from about 200Hz down and if the filter turnover is at 20Hz it will probably be a touch down at even 40Hz. I find this noticeable.
The subsonics we would like to remove are just too close to the lowest bass frequency we want to keep at the end of the day, and the steeper we make the filter the worse in non linear phase, transient response and ringing the filter will be ;)

Some will counter with Doppler distortion and varying position of voice coil affecting speaker linearity.... but I know which compromise I prefer:) Bass always sounds lacking in ultimate extension and somehow just not quite right to me when a subsonic filter is in place.

So all your gear is DC-coupled?

[Arkless Electronics]

So all your gear is DC-coupled?

Some is, some isn't. Completely irrelevant. It's usually flat to below 1Hz even if capacitor coupled.

[Mr Kipling]

Have you ever tried adding the Neumann constant to a phono stage? I tried years ago, but can't remember what the result was.

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[Sherwood]

I'm often surprised by those who are surprised by the performance or electrostatic and ribbon speakers. By nature they are able to shift a of of air and can produce very good bass slam and reasonable extension. I am not a fan of sub-woofers as I have found that they smear the image and make a system sound slower. The problem with electrostatics and ribbon speakers is that they are often paired with inadequate amplification. My Magneplanars are now sounding superb since I got the amplification right and the soundstage is huge (even though I have them in a dedicated listening room - a double bedroom - that is smaller than ideal). Bass slam is excellent and the tonal balance ideal to my ears. Even without a sub! I have heard ESL57s sound fantastic when suitably powered.

Geoff

[Arkless Electronics]

Have you ever tried adding the Neumann constant to a phono stage? I tried years ago, but can't remember what the result was.

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I mentioned it in a recent rant on phono stages but no I've never tried it and have zero intention of ever trying it. It very probably doesn't actually exist!

[alphaGT]

Most of that sub bass rumble in vinyl playback is mechanical feedback. i.e. Coming through the floor and up the rack into the record player. Unless you play with your hinged lid standing open, air borne feedback is minuscule compared to what is shaking in the room. So a mechanical solution is a much better idea, in my opinion. As pointed out electronic solutions have their drawbacks. And there are many products on the market to address this very problem. Anything from granite slabs to rest your table on, to floating platforms that use magnetic levitation. Many of those over priced metal feet are designed to mute vibrations in the lower frequencies.

I was looking at the "Cloud 9", I think it is? They make two part platforms with rubber balls between them, to isolate your table from vibrations in the low frequencies. And they make one that fits my Scout, designed for it. Anyway, engineers have addressed this low frequency problem with vinyl in many mechanical ways. I've always heard it was good to place your record player on an outside wall, because the floor has much more support near the foundation. And it's easy enough to experiment with homemade solutions. Presently I've got the metal cone feet seated in brass cups, and it did wonders to eliminate footfalls causing skips. And by the time I notice any bass funny business the volume is way too loud!


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[Barry]

Have you ever tried adding the Neumann constant to a phono stage? I tried years ago, but can't remember what the result was.

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Must have made a big difference then. ;)

[Arkless Electronics]

Most of that sub bass rumble in vinyl playback is mechanical feedback. i.e. Coming through the floor and up the rack into the record player. Unless you play with your hinged lid standing open, air borne feedback is minuscule compared to what is shaking in the room. So a mechanical solution is a much better idea, in my opinion. As pointed out electronic solutions have their drawbacks. And there are many products on the market to address this very problem. Anything from granite slabs to rest your table on, to floating platforms that use magnetic levitation. Many of those over priced metal feet are designed to mute vibrations in the lower frequencies.

I was looking at the "Cloud 9", I think it is? They make two part platforms with rubber balls between them, to isolate your table from vibrations in the low frequencies. And they make one that fits my Scout, designed for it. Anyway, engineers have addressed this low frequency problem with vinyl in many mechanical ways. I've always heard it was good to place your record player on an outside wall, because the floor has much more support near the foundation. And it's easy enough to experiment with homemade solutions. Presently I've got the metal cone feet seated in brass cups, and it did wonders to eliminate footfalls causing skips. And by the time I notice any bass funny business the volume is way too loud!


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I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!

[Barry]

I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!

Such undulations will have a frequency of less than 1 Hz. Would any competently designed RIAA phonostage respond to that?

[alphaGT]

I disagree. The often large excursions of the woofer cone, seen especially with ported speakers, are from undulations in the flatness of the vinyl, mini warps if you like, plus from visible warps. Remember, bass is boosted x 10 by the RIAA eq curve!

All I know is that these mechanical isolation devices work. Mini warps may cause issues, but they would happen no matter the volume. As far as feedback, it increases with volume, both mechanical or airborne. There's not much to be done about airborne feedback, unless you mount your 'table in another room. So combating mechanical feedback leaves you two options, either install a filter in the preamp, or isolate it mechanically. You yourself claim that the side effects of electronic filters make them not a good option, so that leaves us with mechanical isolation.

Low frequency exasperations due to mini warps can be damped at the stylus, or into the platter perhaps? But those things are built into the design of the 'table itself, or cartridge, or tonearm, part of what makes one turntable worth more than another. But that issue is not a feedback issue. And I can speak from personal experience that mechanical isolation devices can make a real difference.

My old setup was so that I couldn't walk across the floor without footfalls causing skipping. And increasing the volume would excite the bass, getting boomier as it got louder. Now I've got a 35lb plinth with cone feet on brass cups, and those problems are greatly reduced. I can reach beyond satisfying volumes and the bass sounds solid and stable.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to minimize the problem of these mini warps, as you have eloquently described them. That is yet another problem with vinyl playback that can be addressed. I've been looking at some platter mats, the Achromatic, that are supposed to absorb these bass artifacts, or channel them into the platter.


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[Arkless Electronics]

Such undulations will have a frequency of less than 1 Hz. Would any competently designed RIAA phonostage respond to that?


All I know is that these mechanical isolation devices work. Mini warps may cause issues, but they would happen no matter the volume. As far as feedback, it increases with volume, both mechanical or airborne. There's not much to be done about airborne feedback, unless you mount your 'table in another room. So combating mechanical feedback leaves you two options, either install a filter in the preamp, or isolate it mechanically. You yourself claim that the side effects of electronic filters make them not a good option, so that leaves us with mechanical isolation.

Low frequency exasperations due to mini warps can be damped at the stylus, or into the platter perhaps? But those things are built into the design of the 'table itself, or cartridge, or tonearm, part of what makes one turntable worth more than another. But that issue is not a feedback issue. And I can speak from personal experience that mechanical isolation devices can make a real difference.

My old setup was so that I couldn't walk across the floor without footfalls causing skipping. And increasing the volume would excite the bass, getting boomier as it got louder. Now I've got a 35lb plinth with cone feet on brass cups, and those problems are greatly reduced. I can reach beyond satisfying volumes and the bass sounds solid and stable.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to minimize the problem of these mini warps, as you have eloquently described them. That is yet another problem with vinyl playback that can be addressed. I've been looking at some platter mats, the Achromatic, that are supposed to absorb these bass artifacts, or channel them into the platter.


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The flapping woofer we're all familiar with happens IME with every TT I've had or known to the same extent.... Go figure.... :) Yes footfall excites similar but it's still there with wall mounted TT's and ones with amazing isolation...

And not mainly at 1Hz! Put a record on and observe woofer;)

[jusbe]

I mentioned it in a recent rant on phono stages but no I've never tried it and have zero intention of ever trying it. It very probably doesn't actually exist!

CEC PH53, Aqvox 2CI and BMC Audio MCCI Signature Phono stages have that option. All designed by Carlos Candeias.