How good is better than CD?

[Utterchaos]

Hi All,

I have an old turntable in my loft... not used for a LONG time... and not particularly special (the interconnecters are hardwired thin red/white types). I have a Roland Cakewalk interface I can use with Logic and I have The Orbs Adventures beyond Ultraworld on an early "classical" double vinyl copy.

My question is this... would a 24/96 digital rip of a vinyl (as long as it's not got too many artefacts and I get a new stylus etc..) always be better than the lossless rip of the CD?

Just curious!

Thanks all.

James

[struth]

Doubt it would be as good

[Stratmangler]

Your recording quality is always going to be dictated by a number of things.
The record player's setup is going to be very important, as is the cleanliness and condition of the records.
You'll also need to ensure that you don't overload the ADC's inputs on signal peaks with too high a signal level, because that will cause distortion.

What on earth does 24/96 have to do with anything?

[WAD62]

Doubt it would be as good
+1

[magiccarpetride]

Hi All,

I have an old turntable in my loft... not used for a LONG time... and not particularly special (the interconnecters are hardwired thin red/white types). I have a Roland Cakewalk interface I can use with Logic and I have The Orbs Adventures beyond Ultraworld on an early "classical" double vinyl copy.

My question is this... would a 24/96 digital rip of a vinyl (as long as it's not got too many artefacts and I get a new stylus etc..) always be better than the lossless rip of the CD?

Just curious!

Thanks all.

James

I have yet to hear a good 'needle drop' digital file. Many people claim that they can make the needle drop sound indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, but like I said, I've never heard it with my own ears. Every vinyl rip I've heard so far sounded inferior to the original.

Think about it for a second -- if indeed it was possible to make a vinyl rip indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, wouldn't many of us be prepared to drop good money for such rips? I mean, let's imagine someone has a top of the line analog rig (the dream turntable with the best fitted tonearm and cartridge feeding into the best SUT/phono preamp). Such configuration could cost tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes pushing the cost into the six figure territory. Few among us could ever dream of having such a system in our homes. Obviously, many of us have already had a chance, once or twice in our lives, to actually listen to such superior analog systems. And obviously, the quality of the reproduction via such a top notch system is vastly superior to many, if not most digital systems.

Now imagine being able to do the 'needle drop' on such dream system where the digitized copy would sound exactly like the original playback. Hey, I'd be the first to plonk big bucks into buying such FLAC files! That would give me the luxury of hearing the best possible sound quality without having to purchase and mess with such precious front end.

So the reason I'm skeptical that such vinyl rip is possible is basically there are no such perfect needle drop files available on the market.

[Arkless Electronics]

I have yet to hear a good 'needle drop' digital file. Many people claim that they can make the needle drop sound indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, but like I said, I've never heard it with my own ears. Every vinyl rip I've heard so far sounded inferior to the original.

Think about it for a second -- if indeed it was possible to make a vinyl rip indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, wouldn't many of us be prepared to drop good money for such rips? I mean, let's imagine someone has a top of the line analog rig (the dream turntable with the best fitted tonearm and cartridge feeding into the best SUT/phono preamp). Such configuration could cost tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes pushing the cost into the six figure territory. Few among us could ever dream of having such a system in our homes. Obviously, many of us have already had a chance, once or twice in our lives, to actually listen to such superior analog systems. And obviously, the quality of the reproduction via such a top notch system is vastly superior to many, if not most digital systems.

Now imagine being able to do the 'needle drop' on such dream system where the digitized copy would sound exactly like the original playback. Hey, I'd be the first to plonk big bucks into buying such FLAC files! That would give me the luxury of hearing the best possible sound quality without having to purchase and mess with such precious front end.

So the reason I'm skeptical that such vinyl rip is possible is basically there are no such perfect needle drop files available on the market.

Spot on. Nowhere near as good after digital recording IME and I find the whole idea of "needle drops" pretty moronic personally...

[walpurgis]

I find the whole idea of "needle drops" pretty moronic personally...

:D

[Canetoad]

Needle drops to tape (R2R) can sound amazing! My experimenting with needle drops always loses something in the conversion and I usually only do them for vinyl albums I can't get a CD copy for, or the CD version is particularly dire.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I have yet to hear a good 'needle drop' digital file. Many people claim that they can make the needle drop sound indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, but like I said, I've never heard it with my own ears. Every vinyl rip I've heard so far sounded inferior to the original.

Think about it for a second -- if indeed it was possible to make a vinyl rip indistinguishable from the actual vinyl playback, wouldn't many of us be prepared to drop good money for such rips? I mean, let's imagine someone has a top of the line analog rig (the dream turntable with the best fitted tonearm and cartridge feeding into the best SUT/phono preamp). Such configuration could cost tens of thousands of dollars, sometimes pushing the cost into the six figure territory. Few among us could ever dream of having such a system in our homes. Obviously, many of us have already had a chance, once or twice in our lives, to actually listen to such superior analog systems. And obviously, the quality of the reproduction via such a top notch system is vastly superior to many, if not most digital systems.

Now imagine being able to do the 'needle drop' on such dream system where the digitized copy would sound exactly like the original playback. Hey, I'd be the first to plonk big bucks into buying such FLAC files! That would give me the luxury of hearing the best possible sound quality without having to purchase and mess with such precious front end.

So the reason I'm skeptical that such vinyl rip is possible is basically there are no such perfect needle drop files available on the market.

Yes it is possible, firstly you need a custom built Class A stage RIAA preamp, secondly
a type 1 DBX compander like a 150x, because you will never otherwise hear the full dynamic range
LP's are capable of, thirdly a yamaha CDR HD1500. you need the hard to
obtain and expensive integrated circuits DBX made. You need to align the DBX
150x using the calibration procedure. Using a good moving coil cartridge and turntable needle drop
and enjoy recording. Following recording playback - now compare A/B

and you really need one of these to hear it all,
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/123765-stereocoffee-ldr-passive-preamp-upgrade-preview/

Cheers / Chris

[alphaGT]

It may not be "better", per say, but many people do rip their vinyl albums into digital files for convenience. The real question is, does it sound good enough? And I think, if it's done well, it can be worthwhile. It's a recording of you playing a record, so why not just play the record? Convenience of course.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Clive197]

In my opinion, if you haven't removed the LP cover from its protective sleeve, slid the inner sleeve from the cover, then carefully removed the vinyl record from said sleeve being careful to avoid touching the playing surface and then slowly putting the record on the turntable, giving the record a quick wipe (assuming you've used a RCM to remove all contaminates) with your anti-static brush. Then moving the arm over the beginning of the track (or album) and gently lowering the stylus onto said vinyl. If you haven't done all that, then you've missed a very important point of enjoying music from vinyl.

[Utterchaos]

Hey all,

Thanks for you views and comments. Guess the turntable stays in the loft for a while then... Even if I did wire it into my system I really don't have much worth playing on it... probably due to the fact that when I had my music on vinyl I was mostly into punk & goth which to me, now sounds far better when in a box in the loft!

Cheers,

James

[narabdela]

...I find the whole idea of "needle drops" pretty moronic personally...
https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder929/66435929.jpg

[magiccarpetride]

Yes it is possible, firstly you need a custom built Class A stage RIAA preamp, secondly
a type 1 DBX compander like a 150x, because you will never otherwise hear the full dynamic range
LP's are capable of, thirdly a yamaha CDR HD1500. you need the hard to
obtain and expensive integrated circuits DBX made. You need to align the DBX
150x using the calibration procedure. Using a good moving coil cartridge and turntable needle drop
and enjoy recording. Following recording playback - now compare A/B

and you really need one of these to hear it all,
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/123765-stereocoffee-ldr-passive-preamp-upgrade-preview/

Cheers / Chris

If I had a hundred grand lying around for me to spare on audio equipment, I could ostensibly buy an amazing analog front end. That front end would make my current mid-brow audio chain all of a sudden come alive!

So following that line of reasoning, if some studio that already has a hundred grand worth of front end were to do the needle drop using that esoteric equipment, they could then sell the FLACs. If I were to buy such needle drop FLACs, according to your explanation, I would be able to achieve the same quality on my system without dropping the hundred grand into the front end. That would be just amazing, but like I said, I never heard anyone having such amazing needle drops in their possession. The question is: why is that?

[Pieoftheday]

Hey all,

Thanks for you views and comments. Guess the turntable stays in the loft for a while then... Even if I did wire it into my system I really don't have much worth playing on it... probably due to the fact that when I had my music on vinyl I was mostly into punk & goth which to me, now sounds far better when in a box in the loft!

Cheers,

James

Now wrong with a bit of punk or goth, :)

[Macca]

Copyright?

[Arkless Electronics]

and the actual phrases "needle drop" and "bake off" themselves whilst I'm at it!

[Light Dependant Resistor]

If I had a hundred grand lying around for me to spare on audio equipment, I could ostensibly buy an amazing analog front end. That front end would make my current mid-brow audio chain all of a sudden come alive!

So following that line of reasoning, if some studio that already has a hundred grand worth of front end were to do the needle drop using that esoteric equipment, they could then sell the FLACs. If I were to buy such needle drop FLACs, according to your explanation, I would be able to achieve the same quality on my system without dropping the hundred grand into the front end. That would be just amazing, but like I said, I never heard anyone having such amazing needle drops in their possession. The question is: why is that?

Because you need the rare combination, of shunning all forms of mediocrity, along with very good electronics skills. You also
need above all, a passion for achieving extraordinary results.

[magiccarpetride]

Because you need the rare combination, of shunning all forms of mediocrity, along with very good electronics skills. You also
need above all, a passion for achieving extraordinary results.

Isn't that why there are all those publishing houses? Don't they specialize in producing highest quality wares for us to drool over and camp overnight in front of their stores so that we could purchase those fantastic products?

[alphaGT]

I suppose if you had a hundred grand to do all these things, you could just get access to the original masters, and skip all the rest?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Qwin]

Copyright?

I don't think there is much of an issue, like with software, if you have bought the item or licence then making a copy for security and longevity is accepted as the norm. As long as your not selling or giving away multiple copies or playing to a public audience and its just for your own use. Recording off the radio/internet or borrowed sources is a different thing as you haven't paid the artist/publisher for their efforts.

[Macca]

I don't think there is much of an issue, like with software, if you have bought the item or licence then making a copy for security and longevity is accepted as the norm. As long as your not selling or giving away multiple copies or playing to a public audience and its just for your own use. Recording off the radio/internet or borrowed sources is a different thing as you haven't paid the artist/publisher for their efforts.

It is still technically illegal though. Anyway the question was why is no-one making needle drops off of a mint first pressing on a top end vinyl system and selling them? To which one of the answers is copyright. You would certainly be nicked at some point.

[Qwin]

Is it though.

Most laws covering intellectual property rights, are about passing stuff off as your own or as original and doing the owner out of possible income. As you have already paid for unlimited personal use of the item it is arguable as to what if any law you have broken. Can't be bothered to wade through the law, so I am just using my experience on patent and design copyright where I have been involved in several cases.
I once had to witness the destruction of some injection mould tools that infringed a patent. Signed a document along with a Court official to say the cutting up had taken place, the idiot had just directly copied our design, made no attempt to change a thing so wouldn't have passed on copyright either.

The law can work in strange ways, is it the copying that is illegal, or the selling on etc. Don't know enough to be definitive.

I was warned only last week in my local record shop to watch out for bad German Vinyl and CD's taken from needle drops, so it does happen, though more likely to be at a car boot level than a ligit music shop. The shop owner said he had several of these bad copies through the doors, apparently the guy had a vinyl press in his garage and spat out poor quality Vinyl and CD's. The labels and sleeves were well printed and difficult to spot as fake. I think he has been stopped now but stuff is still in circulation.

Worst case is with China, who ignore Patent and Copyright law as a nation, so you can't stop it through the courts and only prosecute end retailers over here for selling fake goods, which doesn't effect the people producing it. When I worked at Siemens a group of employees at a Chinese factory took a bundle of drgs out under their arms and set up in competition across the Street. The stuff of urban myth, I know, but this really happened. They were selling fake automotive parts branded as Siemens. It was such a problem that the Chinese branches were disconnected from seeing confidential material from the rest of the global network. In big business, I think it is now a little better than it was, but for the smaller stuff they still turn a blind eye.

[Macca]

With needle drops there is a UK copyright issue. If we allow them here, for instance, then Google kick off about it.

Copying for one's own use in this country is still illegal as well.

My understanding of patents is that aside from the Chinese who don't care and can't be touched anyway, that it is still impossible to protect your patents unless you are a multinational company with bottomless pockets.

I used to go out with the daughter of the bloke who invented those stick on fingers that made it look like someone was trapped in the boot of your car.

He told me that there was no viable way to protect it so when it took off he just sold as many as he could before the copies arrived on the market. He said he got one good year and an E class Merc out of it.

[Arkless Electronics]

I fail to see the point of taking a vinyl copy of what was probably a digital recording in the first place (unless recorded before about 1985 or certain audiophile labels) and then turning it back into a digital copy.... the only possible reason being to add "nice" distortion and a bit of background clicks and pops for that "authentic sound":D

[Qwin]

With needle drops there is a UK copyright issue. If we allow them here, for instance, then Google kick off about it.

Copying for one's own use in this country is still illegal as well.

My understanding of patents is that aside from the Chinese who don't care and can't be touched anyway, that it is still impossible to protect your patents unless you are a multinational company with bottomless pockets.

I used to go out with the daughter of the bloke who invented those stick on fingers that made it look like someone was trapped in the boot of your car.

He told me that there was no viable way to protect it so when it took off he just sold as many as he could before the copies arrived on the market. He said he got one good year and an E class Merc out of it.

Copyright - For own use. I don't know about that, you would have to point me at something that states it.

Companies can not patent anything, a patent has to be registered to an individual who's name will appear on the patent. It is usual practice that you sign away your rights to any patents when you join a company as an employee, whether the thing is thought up in their time or at home it then belongs to them.

Yes, to maintain patents in all the key market and manufacturing areas is very expensive. I used to despair when inventors brought me ideas they had "patented" waste of their hard earned cash. Most of the time I could pull out a version of what they had brought from the store cupboard, which having prior art made their patent void. They weren't aware the patent office would not validate their claims, just take the money and file it.

Also the patent has to be well written.
I have been asked on more than one occasion to break a patent (get round it). One took me 30min. and another, after consulting a patent lawyer for confirmation, was so bad that even the companies own product didn't infringe the patent designed to protect it.

There is a quirk in America, where your employer has to purchase the rights from you, the standard fee is a one dollar coin. When my employer in the UK registered patents in America with my name on them, they had to give me a dollar coin each time and I had to sign a contract form.

The fingers in car thing has nothing patentable in its make up, it would be a registered design/copyright issue and like you say, expensive to try and stop the imitators.

[Macca]

I don't know. I can sort of envisage a situation where a mint first press, played on a very good vinyl set up, then copied to a CD, could easily be better than the CD version which might be taken from an nth gen master and has had all of the dynamic range squashed out of it in addition.

Take Sinatra At The Sands - I have the CD version (very good) and a CDR with the fancy analogue Tim DP re-mastering that Marco copied from vinyl for me. Same recording but sounds different. I could see that some people would buy copies like that so long as they were not too expensive and it was legal. Which it isn't of course.

[Rothchild]

The legality aspect isn't too hard to circumvent, if someone thought there was a business in 'the needledrop' series then they just need to pay the copyright holder - like anyone releasing a compilation album, or these small labels doing reissues etc.

As for 'backup' copies of cds this is still a dubious legal area and whilst you are allowed to make backups of software it's not as clear for music, certainly 'format shifting' is still of dubious legality in the UK (as I recall they were going to fix it and then chickened out after being paid off by the music industry)

[struth]

I very much doubt a court would find someone guilty of, say making flac or mp3 copies of his cds to listen to. selling them would be another matter.

[magiccarpetride]

It is still technically illegal though. Anyway the question was why is no-one making needle drops off of a mint first pressing on a top end vinyl system and selling them? To which one of the answers is copyright. You would certainly be nicked at some point.

Right. My premise was not the 'garage pirating', but big, legitimate publishing powerhouses. They have the capability to assemble top of the line analog front end (those $300,000 turntables and so on). They also have the capability to hire qualified engineers who will do the most perfect needle drops. And they also have the capability to hire top lawyers who would secure the copyright licensing. That could be a lucrative business model, selling digital music that sounds exactly like it would sound if you had the moolah to put a $300,000 turntable in your home!

So my thinking is that such awesome needle drops are more a figment of someone's imagination, not a real possibility.

[Macca]

Right. My premise was not the 'garage pirating', but big, legitimate publishing powerhouses. They have the capability to assemble top of the line analog front end (those $300,000 turntables and so on). They also have the capability to hire qualified engineers who will do the most perfect needle drops. And they also have the capability to hire top lawyers who would secure the copyright licensing. That could be a lucrative business model, selling digital music that sounds exactly like it would sound if you had the moolah to put a $300,000 turntable in your home!

So my thinking is that such awesome needle drops are more a figment of someone's imagination, not a real possibility.

Well not really. I used to have loads of 'needle drops' on compact cassette. So did everyone I knew back then.

The difference then was we were young and poor. Now most of your potential market will be 50 plus and well-off. They can buy any record they want. Maybe not any pressing of course as some cost a bomb. But would they settle for a needle drop. My guess is most won't, because they would rather have the vinyl record even if it isn't the supposedly best pressing. They don't really want to have to put on a CD instead. Baby out with bathwater.

[magiccarpetride]

Well not really. I used to have loads of 'needle drops' on compact cassette. So did everyone I knew back then.

The difference then was we were young and poor. Now most of your potential market will be 50 plus and well-off. They can buy any record they want. Maybe not any pressing of course as some cost a bomb. But would they settle for a needle drop. My guess is most won't, because they would rather have the vinyl record even if it isn't the supposedly best pressing. They don't really want to have to put on a CD instead. Baby out with bathwater.

Even if I had the good pressing, I'd still like to be able to hear it on a much better turntable than I could afford. Therefore, if someone were to offer me a needle drop of that same record, only that needle drop sounds as if I have a $300,000 turntable in my room, I'd go for it.

[Stratmangler]

Even if I had the good pressing, I'd still like to be able to hear it on a much better turntable than I could afford. Therefore, if someone were to offer me a needle drop of that same record, only that needle drop sounds as if I have a $300,000 turntable in my room, I'd go for it.

What's a $300,000 turntable supposed to sound like?

[Macca]

Better than a $200,000 turntable?

[magiccarpetride]

What's a $300,000 turntable supposed to sound like?

It's supposed to sound much better than my turntable.

[Stratmangler]

It's supposed to sound much better than my turntable.

Which is?

[magiccarpetride]

Which is?

Systemdek IIX

[Stratmangler]

Systemdek IIX

Glass platter & tear drop arm board?

[alphaGT]

If one had the means to set up a $300k record player, then he could access the original master tapes for much less, I'm guessing. So why make a needle drop if we can go back to the original master? Those who record for a living would fail to see the logic in recording from vinyl playback. Theoretically the master tape should be better? And probably is


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

Funny how things change. Through the seventies, recording LP's onto compact cassette was almost universal. Virtually no other means of playing your own music in the car or having portable sounds otherwise.

[Stratmangler]

If one had the means to set up a $300k record player, then he could access the original master tapes for much less, I'm guessing. So why make a needle drop if we can go back to the original master? Those who record for a living would fail to see the logic in recording from vinyl playback. Theoretically the master tape should be better? And probably is



Nice idea, with one major flaw.
You have to hope that the masters are not on Ampex tape, and unfortunately Ampex tape was one of the most widely used brands.

[alphaGT]

Nice idea, with one major flaw.
You have to hope that the masters are not on Ampex tape, and unfortunately Ampex tape was one of the most widely used brands.

That's true! If the original master tape is no longer with us, or had degraded, then recording from vinyl is your best option. I remember reading about a library that was doing, "needle drops", of old 78 speed shellacs, that their masters were lost to the ages, plus there was no tape in the 30's. Their effort was to preserve history, but they were trying to maintain the highest sound quality too, using software to clean up pops and ticks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[magiccarpetride]

Glass platter & tear drop arm board?

Yes.

[Stratmangler]

Yes.

I used to run one.
It's still in a cupboard upstairs.
I got a great deal of enjoyment listening to records using that deck, but it was never anything more than something a bit better than a starter deck.

A Thorens TD125 MkII easily showed it the door.

[magiccarpetride]

I used to run one.
It's still in a cupboard upstairs.
I got a great deal of enjoyment listening to records using that deck, but it was never anything more than something a bit better than a starter deck.

A Thorens TD125 MkII easily showed it the door.

Yes, I agree.

Goes to show that even a lowly entry level turntable can effortlessly surpass heavily modded and carefully configured Squeezebox Touch.

[Stratmangler]

Have you messed about with it yet?
The felt mat doesn't do any favours.
The wirewound resistor in the PSU can be swapped for something a bit larger too, which in turn will reduce motor noise.
Reduced motor noise means fewer vibrations transmitted into the belt, and ultimately the stylus has an easier time tracking the groove.
Just getting the fibre board base off of the plinth improves the sound.

[magiccarpetride]

Have you messed about with it yet?
The felt mat doesn't do any favours.
The wirewound resistor in the PSU can be swapped for something a bit larger too, which in turn will reduce motor noise.
Reduced motor noise means fewer vibrations transmitted into the belt, and ultimately the stylus has an easier time tracking the groove.
Just getting the fibre board base off of the plinth improves the sound.

Haven't messed with it yet. My dealer, who assembled this Frankenstein for me, advised me in several strongly worded phrases to stay away from mats!

Not sure what exactly do you mean by 'getting the fibre board base off of the plinth'?

[Stratmangler]

Haven't messed with it yet. My dealer, who assembled this Frankenstein for me, advised me in several strongly worded phrases to stay away from mats!

Not sure what exactly do you mean by 'getting the fibre board base off of the plinth'?

The fibre board base is underneath the plinth - IIRC it's held on by the screws that connect the feet to the blocks in the corners.
Remove the fibre board, and you'll see the suspension members and springs.
If you can already see the suspension members the fibre board has already been removed.

[magiccarpetride]

The fibre board base is underneath the plinth - IIRC it's held on by the screws that connect the feet to the blocks in the corners.
Remove the fibre board, and you'll see the suspension members and springs.
If you can already see the suspension members the fibre board has already been removed.

Thanks Chris. Being new to the tt tweaking, I'm afraid I'll need a bit more hand holding (I don't even know how to switch my tt to 45 rpm?!?)

So how do I check to see if the fibre board is there or is gone missing?

[Stratmangler]

A screwdriver (or two - I can't remember, as it's getting on towards 20 years since I last did it) is all you need.
Undo the screws, remove the board.
Refit feet if you need to remove them to get the bottom board off.

[magiccarpetride]

A screwdriver (or two - I can't remember, as it's getting on towards 20 years since I last did it) is all you need.
Undo the screws, remove the board.
Refit feet if you need to remove them to get the bottom board off.

Gotcha, thanks :)