Which country has the best hi fi industry in the world

[Dynamics]

I'm maybe bound to say this because I'm British but my strong impression looking at the makes we have, that we have the best Hi fi industry in the world. I'm talking about amps,speakers, turntables etc but in audiophile classes. Or anyone who cares about sound and spends say at least £2k on hi fi.

I also wonder by market share, how much are our British products exported compared to American hi fi etc, as a total share of the world audiophile market. Clearly the Japanese and Chinese probably have the mass market consumer market still, but what about the audiophile market.

If you listed all audiophile makes from the UK and those from the US, they'd be more well known British makes used in America than American ones. This is just my impression.

What do people think about this question. It could also be which country produces the best audiophile hi fi products.

[Beobloke]

I think this could be too many questions in one becasue it is too dependent on what your definition of "audiophile" is. Yes, Britain produces some great kit, but wandering around the Munich High End Show will reveal that we are smoething of a goldfish in a very big pond!

[Macca]

The Yanks seem to be fascinated by British kit but I get the impression they don't actually buy that much of it compared to their home-grown and Japanese stuff

[Arkless Electronics]

Many of our most well known brands are no longer UK owned....

We don't make that much "high end" stuff (I'm talking about the £20K+ for an amp and £50K + for speakers etc) either, which is probably a good thing as it's mainly shiny trinkets for millionaires IMHO. There's no real extra engineering in such products... you're paying through the nose for inch thick fascias with gold name plates etc and rare hand carved and polished hardwoods etc etc

[southall-1998]

Sugden is still British....Good!

S.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I'm not sure what the answer would tell us, either. For starters there is the fundamental unanswerable that Jez has pointed out - what actually constitutes British kit any more? Beyond that, all we would learn is what sector of the market each country's manufacturers have chosen to slot themselves into. There are a good number of "British" manufacturers, for example, who cater for the mid-fi to low hi-end market. But that is just a business decision. It's not as though that is all they can do. It's just that they - or their bean counters - have determined that that is the market position they want to occupy, that gives the best return for their outlay, given who they are and where they are. My guess (coming from a position of total engineering ignorance, admittedly) is that any company, in any country, could make the choice whether they want to cater for the mass market - pile 'em high and sell 'em cheap, oligarch top end, or anything in between. Then you staff-up with the appropriate product designers, production engineers, workforce, and advertising consultants. Brand positioning follows accordingly. No country has a monopoly on talent (and even if they did, the mobile nature of the workforce would negate that).
IB

[Yomanze]

Depends on what components. In terms of amps and speakers am a big fan of the "minimal British school". My plain LFD boxes will put most stuff to shame.

As for my British gear, preamp power amp and speakers it is all 100% British designed and made even down to the driver units of my Royd speakers. As for the individual components themselves such as caps, resistors and transistors, then there is only one answer: Japan.

[Neil McCauley]

Depends on what components. In terms of amps and speakers am a big fan of the "minimal British school". My plain LFD boxes will put most stuff to shame.

One perspective if I may. LFD Audio. Bona fide British. One bloke doing it all. Design, build (albeit outsourced board loading) and all the rest in what is apparently a large shed in Clacton-on-Sea. Credentials all in place then.

Once lfd4u.com (his primary, possibly only UK retail outlet packed it in earlier this year; “no longer fun” said the lfd4u.com owner) these world-class sounding designs are difficult if not impossible to purchase in the UK.

http://www.lfd-audio.co.uk/

Dr. Bews (LFD Audio owner) has, it seems pretty much given up on the UK market because of ‘the antics of some buyers’, ‘impossibility of getting a fair review because of refusal to advertise’ and …. believe it or not, refusal to have a proper website. Try Goggling this.

He makes what apparently is a very substantial income – some say >£1m turnover (no staff overheads, possibly owns the freehold, zero marketing and so on) by selling into “more sophisticated markets”. USA and Canada – obviously. Belgium too.

Make of this what you will.

[MikeMusic]

I have a mix of nationalities. British, Japanese, American.

I once regarded Japanese speakers as not worth bothering about. Had to be British.
Then I heard the TAD E-1s. Stunning speakers, which I bought !

[AlexM]

I think the British audiophile market is slowly dying due to the obsession with endless recycling of old gear and a refusal to engage in the kind of market that makes audio gear as a veblen on good where a high price is a virtue of it own. We are too tight fisted and too poor :)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

[Arkless Electronics]

I think the British audiophile market is slowly dying due to the obsession with endless recycling of old gear and a refusal to engage in the kind of market that makes audio gear as a veblen on good where a high price is a virtue of it own. We are too tight fisted and too poor :)

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk

It's one of the biggest problems yes. It's not exactly a fair playing field for a manufacturer when one is up against not "what are the competition making for a similar price?" but "what can the customer buy second hand for half the price?"

The availability of dirt cheap crap from China is a major problem too. I sometime see eg knock off Quad 405 boards from China where the trade price to me to purchase just the components (non fake, traceable, good quality components that is) is double the cost of the finished and delivered from China article!:eek:

As for veblen goods well I find them morally inexcusable personally... but that's another matter entirely!

[jandl100]

I think we have a very skewed and biased view of the audio world here in Britain.

If you dig a little deeper there are great and fascinating products made in eastern Europe, the far east, India, South America .... that we never hear about, let alone get imported into the UK.
We know about what we know about, but there is a hell of a lot of other stuff out there.

[danilo]

Always struck me as so. Could be Myopia? Could be the UK's Tax walls?
Lots of Great and not so great gear out of the UK, no arguement.
However.. Lots of great gear out of the rest of the world too.
Currently Far More by my observations.

An Old cartoon sums it up: " Storm over Channel.. Europe cut off " has some traction ;)

[Macca]

Always struck me as so. Could be Myopia? Could be the UK's Tax walls?
Lots of Great and not so great gear out of the UK, no arguement.
However.. Lots of great gear out of the rest of the world too.
Currently Far More by my observations.

An Old cartoon sums it up: " Storm over Channel.. Europe cut off " has some traction ;)

I think it was 'Fog In Channel, Continent Isolated' and it was supposedly a headline in The Times.

The thing about used gear ruining the market for new equipment suggests to me that the problem is that the new stuff doesn't offer enough, or possibly any, advantage over the old. There's only so many ways to vary voltage over time and I'd guess they have all been done. Incremental improvements in drive unit tech and DACs are perhaps not making enough difference to convince people it is worth exchanging old for new.

[struth]

Its true China makes some crap. They also make some decent stuff. Tis a big country with a huge advantage from costs. Transportation is pretty cheap for most things in bulk anywhere now by boat. Think its about 1% typically.
So if we cannot compete in mass market then we have to cater for the more bespoke one which is much smaller and can be competitive.

[Arkless Electronics]

I think it was 'Fog In Channel, Continent Isolated' and it was supposedly a headline in The Times.

The thing about used gear ruining the market for new equipment suggests to me that the problem is that the new stuff doesn't offer enough, or possibly any, advantage over the old. There's only so many ways to vary voltage over time and I'd guess they have all been done. Incremental improvements in drive unit tech and DACs are perhaps not making enough difference to convince people it is worth exchanging old for new.

No doubt yes. This is mature technology and any improvements are indeed in small increments generally. If people won't buy new though it's going to eventually kill off the UK industry.

[Macca]

No doubt yes. This is mature technology and any improvements are indeed in small increments generally. If people won't buy new though it's going to eventually kill off the UK industry.


We can design and make in the UK and sell abroad. Quality gear that is designed and built in Britain carries huge cachet in the Far East. Yes, it is Veblen goods and I'm with you on the 'moral' side, but it will keep people here in work and help the balance of payments out.

[Wakefield Turntables]

Sugden is still British....Good!

S.

And about 10 minutes down my road!

[Frazeur1]

I think that the initial question is a difficult one to answer. There are so many interesting and really great products coming out of Poland, Germany, Russia, along with all the other goodies in the UK and US and Asian markets.

For me, it is just fun and enjoyable to be able to listen to some of this stuff. Not always easy to track down, but worth the effort. Last summer I was able to get an in-home dem of the Encore 7 Prestige Eggshell 15 wpc integrated amplifier from Poland, a real treat to listen to, and also a neat design. Many more out there to sample from so many countries.

[Spectral Morn]

British contemporary HiFi does nothing much for me, never did. Some vintage gear is interesting.

Most interesting, to me, audio comes from America, Canada, Italy, Germany and Japan.

I see Poland as an up and coming place for interesting world class products.

[Arkless Electronics]

British contemporary HiFi does nothing much for me, never did. Some vintage gear is interesting.

Most interesting, to me, audio comes from America, Canada, Italy, Germany and Japan.

I see Poland as an up and coming place for interesting world class products.

OK... So, what is so poor about UK gear but better in gear from the countries you name?

[Frazeur1]

I don't see anywhere in Neils post that he said any of it is poor, but I should probably not speak for him here. I guess though, quite a few of my audio/music friends always ask me why I typically buy British gear and not American. For me, I am happy for those American companies, and have had a lot of gear from here, but I just tend to like different things, not something everyone and their brother owns. Obviously it has to sound good too, and reliability and looks come into the equation as well.

[Spectral Morn]

I don't see anywhere in Neils post that he said any of it is poor, but I should probably not speak for him here. I guess though, quite a few of my audio/music friends always ask me why I typically buy British gear and not American. For me, I am happy for those American companies, and have had a lot of gear from here, but I just tend to like different things, not something everyone and their brother owns. Obviously it has to sound good too, and reliability and looks come into the equation as well.

As you say Timothy I didn't say poor, I just said it did nothing for me personally.

Put simply I prefer the way music is reproduced by the audio gear I have heard and own from the countries I named. I am mainly referring here to electronics, not speakers or turntables, as I have had and have owned such. CD players, DACs, Amplifiers, Tape Decks and Tuners mostly non British/UK.

I am not going to drawn into slag a brand, not going to happen.

[Macca]

I think to judge hi-fi 'by nation' is to generalise to the level were it becomes pointless. Is there a 'House Sound' by nationality? What's a Polish designer going to be doing that is so different to, say, an American designer, just by virtue of the fact that he is Polish? Doesn't make any sense to me.

[walpurgis]

I think to judge hi-fi 'by nation' is to generalise to the level were it becomes pointless.

I tend to agree.

[Marco]

In my experience, equipment produced by different countries often has a fundamental 'house sound', which to some degree reflects the tastes of their respective inhabitants. I've certainly found that German hi-fi, in particular has a distinctive presentation (majors in an upfront, bass-driven sound), as indeed does, say, loudspeakers from the US, if nothing else because they've been designed to be used in much bigger rooms than ours. American speakers also usually excel at soundstaging.

As always in audio, however, there is no "best"; merely different, and it comes down to what suits your tastes/needs. Generally, I've preferred British hi-fi, as I like how it's 'voiced' [the 'British house sound', as it were, in reference to my previous point], especially with speakers, but there's much that I also admire in Japanese and American hi-fi, and as Neil touches upon, some eastern European stuff, where some very clever designers are emerging from!

I also like some French hi-fi, Micromega being a case in point, as their CD players to my ears sound extremely musical, and also the likes of Triangle loudspeakers, although I'm not so enamoured with some Focal designs. As for Italian hi-fi, I'm sorry to say that despite being a patriotic Italian, I've so far not found much Italian hi-fi equipment I could live with, as for me it tends to be style over substance, with much of it having a rather warm and euphonic sonic signature, which isn't my cup of tea.

Unfortunately, in the past, here in the UK, out with of digital equipment, we've not given Japanese hi-fi anywhere near a fair crack of the whip, especially the solid-state amplifiers, speakers and turntables, some of which (especially the best of vintage varieties) can be absolutely stunning. However, forums such as AoS have helped alter some perspectives, in that respect, and we'll continue to do that with anything else unfashionable or 'off-trend' that deserves it! :cool:

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I think to judge hi-fi 'by nation' is to generalise to the level were it becomes pointless. Is there a 'House Sound' by nationality? What's a Polish designer going to be doing that is so different to, say, an American designer, just by virtue of the fact that he is Polish? Doesn't make any sense to me.

Hi Martin
The designers nationality makes no difference, it is either a good design or its not.

What we see though is a lack of designers, committing to have their ideas stolen by
countries involved in mass production. Which is fair enough.

Yes patents might protect, but patents come with many additional costs where there is
much interest in new ways of doing electronics. Here are a few, Patent attorneys,
registration of patents in numerous countries, Lawyers and barristers to defend your
patent. Travel costs involved with litigation etc etc.

Designers like designing -not attending courts. The best example of a designer
hounded until he sadly took his own life, was Major Edwin Howard Armstrong
http://www.njarc.org/books/man-of-high-fidelity.pdf

So what we are abundantly seeing is designs made 42 years ago in the case of
Quad's current dumping, then being made wrongly, I refer to mk2 405 boards
that have design errors, that original boards made by Quad did not. Noting
the Mk 2 boards were a few years later than Mk 1 from 1975

Also generally, countries involved in mass production totally failing
to freshly design new products.

It is nice to suggest a solution in a topic like this, and I see Creative Commons
evolving eventually to handle the enormity of protecting designers. But also
bodies like the Audio Engineering Society, stepping up to the task.

Meanwhile though, enjoy the many ideas that flourished last century, but be
prepared to learn some electronics skills, when those products need refurbishing.


Cheers / Chris

[Dynamics]

I agree with Marcos asssessment with the different sounds. I think the American stuff is all power and no nuance but who can beat the likes of pmc, atc, linn, naim. It may be owned by different countries e.g. Naim, but it's still British designed.

[walpurgis]

I agree with Marcos asssessment with the different sounds. I think the American stuff is all power and no nuance but who can beat the likes of pmc, atc, linn, naim. It may be owned by different countries e.g. Naim, but it's still British designed.

Funny you should mention makes I'd not even look at.

[danilo]

OK... So, what is so poor about UK gear but better in gear from the countries you name?

As above not that anything is Poor.
Just no longer Advancing/leading edge, enough to be alluring /competitive.. to be blunt.
Helluvalot of Yesterdays' Laurels being reissued. And of lesser than original quality.. just to drive extra nails into the coffin.
There isn't much new or interesting in gear out of the UK in .. Decades.
If such exists, it's unknown out 'here'.

As small example: lookit Quad.. a genuine leader in the 70's.
Currently Few outside the UK would buy quad, if at all.
Same with Linn.. damned few buy the stuff 'here'.
Other boutique types? Completely off the Radar.

Some reference to Polish stuff... which Is on the radar.. Is at least, exquisitely crafted.. suggesting care and concern, which Will garner increasing market share over time.

China doesn't Count, at least not yet.
Only Bottom Feeders actually buy Chinese Junk..and even then, rarely twice.

[Dynamics]

Funny you should mention makes I'd not even look at.

I suppose we all fall into our circles. My problem maybe is I've always fallen into the mass market audiophile offerings because if someone swears by a certain amp, far from such mass market audiophile offerings like the brands I mention, how do I know if it's any good if it's maybe in one dealers showroom only. But I can pick and choose from an audio t or Sevenoaks etc. But maybe it's not a problem after all as if lots buy, it's a good indicator of quality. So maybe I don't have a problem afterall. But as to hi fi - always each to their own. But pmc is a bloody brilliant brand.

[Macca]

As small example: lookit Quad.. a genuine leader in the 70's.
Currently Few outside the UK would buy quad, if at all.
Same with Linn.. damned few buy the stuff 'here'.
Other boutique types? Completely off the Radar.

.

The world outside the UK does not just compromise North America. QUAD and Linn sell far more outside the UK than they do within. There are six inhabited continents you know ;)

[Yomanze]

In my experience, equipment produced by different countries often has a fundamental 'house sound', which to some degree reflects the tastes of their respective inhabitants.

Saves me posting it after a read through tonight's thread, agreed. :D

For example, as a general rule, the American sound is richer and beefier than the British sound, but the British sound is more honest.

[Joe]

The world outside the UK does not just compromise North America.

These days it's mostly Trump compromising North America.

[Marco]

For example, as a general rule, the American sound is richer and beefier than the British sound, but the British sound is more honest.

Yup, but much of that is to do with the fact that their gear needs to make convincing sounding music in generally much bigger rooms than ours.

Therefore the chances are, that "richer and beefier" sound you state [which incidentally I fully agree with] won't come across in the same way to Americans, as when we'd use the same equipment or speakers in your typical British room, which is why for us (mainly), the British sound is perceived as being "more honest".

I would suspect that some British stuff may sound 'wrong', in typical US-sized rooms, for similar reasons... :)

Marco.

[Marco]

I suppose we all fall into our circles. My problem maybe is I've always fallen into the mass market audiophile offerings because if someone swears by a certain amp, far from such mass market audiophile offerings like the brands I mention, how do I know if it's any good if it's maybe in one dealers showroom only.

Yes Simon, I think we need to try and wean you off being so focused on the mainstream/mass-market brands and approach to audio, and try and get you to think a little more laterally! ;)

That is, as long as it doesn't detract from you enjoying what you currently have (and if it's mainstream stuff, that's fine), as at the end of the day it's all about enjoying the music. However, there are very distinct and unique advantages, in terms of achieving the highest 'SPPV', which going down the specialist/boutique/bespoke route provides that no mainstream commercial equipment can match, without spending some serious mullah....

It's a bit like comparing a hot-rodded, race-tuned, professionally modified car, against the same model, only in its stock form, straight from the dealer. The former, if done right, always 'wastes' the latter, which if you've ever watched the likes of Top Gear, you'll be fully aware of! :eyebrows:

And the same applies with hi-fi...... The key is in buying from folk who *really* know what they're doing, and have a serious passion for it, rather than simply just churning out 'boxes' to create a product range.

Marco.

[Macca]

These days it's mostly Trump compromising North America.

We really should consider forming a double-act.

[Marco]

Which one is Pinky and which is Perky? ;)

Marco.

[Macca]

Which one is Pinky and which is Perky? ;)

Marco.

Or Bill and Ben?

[Frazeur1]

Ben? As in Ben Dover?

[Macca]

Ben? As in Ben Dover?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Pot_Men

[walpurgis]

Ben? As in Ben Dover?

Ben Nevis. Big and pointy!

[Dynamics]

Yes Simon, I think we need to try and wean you off being so focused on the mainstream/mass-market brands and approach to audio, and try and get you to think a little more laterally! ;)

That is, as long as it doesn't detract from you enjoying what you currently have (and if it's mainstream stuff, that's fine), as at the end of the day it's all about enjoying the music. However, there are very distinct and unique advantages, in terms of achieving the highest 'SPPV', which going down the specialist/boutique/bespoke route provides that no mainstream commercial equipment can match, without spending some serious mullah....

It's a bit like comparing a hot-rodded, race-tuned, professionally modified car, against the same model, only in its stock form, straight from the dealer. The former, if done right, always 'wastes' the latter, which if you've ever watched the likes of Top Gear, you'll be fully aware of! :eyebrows:

And the same applies with hi-fi...... The key is in buying from folk who *really* know what they're doing, and have a serious passion for it, rather than simply just churning out 'boxes' to create a product range.

Marco.


Id be in the camp the stock car is probably better because it's designed according to what the manufacturer intended. So you can put exhausts and skirts on a Ford Fiesta and is it better than the stock car. Probably not. Change the engine and redesign its balance with the benefit of considerable resource, then yes. But my attitude is we don't see this in hi fi. The reason why the mass market think the offerings in the mass market audiophile sector is good, is very much because of experience and many people buying. I don't buy a car from Poland, but a car from the Germans or Americans with a known pedigree and considerable customer experience. My attitude is if im to rely on a group to tell me that a very much smaller proponent of the market is right, then how can I know they are right. But if say pmc are making some of the best speakers in the uk at the moment and many people buying new speakers think so, I'm right with them, rather than a brand or model which came out years ago and is past it's best or one more obscure. Also I agree it's what you get out, but how can I demo a very unknown amp or brand or maybe an obsolete model when unavailable or only a few dealers has the same. It puts an element of 'I know more about hi fi because I have an obscure brand' about it, rather than what many people think are good. People swear by la phroig whiskey but I think it tastes like tcp, and I'd rather have a traditional tasting but good pedigree maccallan, or even a bushmills.

[walpurgis]

Hmm. If I was in the market for new British brand speakers, I'd be looking at Harbeth, Spendor, Quad (electrostatics only) and Tannoy etc.

[Dynamics]

I live about half a mile away from harbeth and listened to lots at Bristol and my impression is they are great for classical, very natural but don't have the hard hitting bass and treble balanced nature of pmc e.g. Twenty5. Spendor are very good indeed and a match for pmc except say a6r not being as good as pmc twenty5 series eg 23. Twenty5 more treble and mid range etc. I don't know about quad really but I wasn't impressed with some of their speakers but tannoy are very good and I've been a tannoy owner, but they don't currently have speakers as good in the pmc class and price of twenty5 series ATM,because there isn't tannoy speakers in the pmc's price bracket at present I don't think.

[Marco]

Id be in the camp the stock car is probably better because it's designed according to what the manufacturer intended.


Yes, and along with all the financial limitations a commercial manufacturer has, which ultimately means less spent 'under the hood', where it matters most... ;)

When I buy hi-fi equipment, I don't want a huge chunk of what I've paid spent on marketing, advertising and all the other overheads of a large 'high street' business. I want the bulk of it to go on PERFORMANCE!

And it's EXACTLY the same with cars, *providing* the job has been done RIGHT, and carried out with a proper understanding and appreciation of what one is working with, and what one can realistically achieve. In that respect, a suitably qualified bespoke modifier isn't hobbled with the same financial restrictions, and so (providing either he or she, or their customer) has sufficient budget, the sky's virtually the limit!

In that respect, I'd put my Brabus-modified and professionally race-tuned Mercedes C350CDI up against the current stock model any day - and expect it to royally DESTROY it!! :D

...as indeed I would much of the hi-fi gear I use, which has been 'race-tuned' in a similar way, when pit against most commercial equipment, at virtually any price.

You're still new here, and getting to know folks, but if you start to attend some of the AoS meets/bake-offs, or host some of your own, and get to hear what the best of the kit I'm referring to sounds like, and experience it outperforming some commercial stuff you had previously considered was the dog's bollocks, trust me it will open your eyes (and ears), and you'll no longer need to rely on magazines or dealers to tell you what's worth buying....

But you need to get yourself out and about and listen to different stuff, preferably by taking a known reference with you and judging, with your own ears, how it performs in comparison, as that's the only way you learn. It can be a hard one to take though, when your, say, £3k 'commercial wonder box' is sonically humiliated by a £300 DIY design!! :doh::eek:

I've been there, and it's a total head-fuck.... *But* it acts as a worthwhile learning curve and teaches you some valuable lessons, as to just what can be achieved with hi-fi, and save you a fortune in the process. I can assure you that I don't miss the days of spending £30k on a new Naim system, especially when my current one (as detailed in my signature) pisses all over it - at a fraction of the cost!!

Only you, however, can decide if that type of journey [and reality check] is for you.....

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Well I suppose you need to have marketing to know about it. If you don't you can't know. And if budgets aren't spent on marketing to enthuse people, how can anyone buy that brand. We are talking about products in a very niche market in audiophile terms. If I know a select group of people like one non mass market but audiophile brand in say Canada, not known to other people into a similar non mass market audiophile brand elsewhere in the uk, but not known to those people in Canada, who knows what's better. You can't compare. But spend effort on getting the product out to Canadians, British etc, and marketing, and lots think it's great. That's a different matter.

And I doubt one can say a system pisses over a naim system of same value, for reasons naim change and develop more than our systems, and more importantly who is ever doing proper independent comparisons to know. Of course my hi fi is better than anyone else at same price. I would say that - tongue in cheek. But is my hi fi better than one in Canada of that market, not distributed to uk, or known as much in uk and distributed as much for me to know. Who knows and frankly who cares. I can't go out and audition everything. I get enjoyment from mine, what do I matter if mine pisses on anyone else's or not.

[Marco]

Well I suppose you need to have marketing to know about it. If you don't you can't know.


Not necessarily. That's what forums are for these days! :)

Bear in mind, I'm talking about facilitating the interests of enthusiasts, such as you and me, not the general public. WE get to know about the good stuff because people we've met on AoS, or on other forums, and perhaps have since become friends with, and who's ears we trust, report on it - that is if we don't already know about it ourselves, as a result of visiting someone or attending a bake-off.


And I doubt one can say a system pisses over a naim system of same value, for reasons naim change and develop more than our systems...


Yes you can, because in this instance I'm talking about the £30k Naim system I used to own (CDS2/XPS2/NAC52/Supercap/135s), all bought brand new. I used that with a pair of Spendor SP100s, which was my system for five years before I got into what I'm into now, and learned some very harsh and valuable lessons on how best to invest my money on hi-fi equipment.

Therefore, I'm 100% qualified to make that comparison. I'm not talking about the stuff Naim produce now, although I have my views on that from what I've recently heard at shows. Honestly, if you knew my history with Naim equipment (which I've been using on and off since the 80s), you'd know that few have been more of a fanboy than me!

I still respect the company and consider Paul Stephenson (now retired) as a friend, and that will never change, but reality is reality.


...and more importantly who is ever doing proper independent comparisons to know. Of course my hi fi is better than anyone else at same price. I would say that - tongue in cheek. But is my hi fi better than one in Canada of that market, not distributed to uk, or known as much in uk and distributed as much for me to know. Who knows and frankly who cares. I can't go out and audition everything.


YOU will be, if you get yourself around and listen to other people's kit, especially those who own either DIY or bespoke produced equipment from small, specialist manufacturers.. Use YOUR EARS, rather than relying on those of anyone else, unless you're the unsociable type who just likes to read magazines and keep himself to himself ;)


I get enjoyment from mine, what do I matter if mine pisses on anyone else's or not.

That's good, and what it's all about, but the only way to learn and understand what else there is out there, with a view to fundamentally improving upon what you currently have (should you wish to do so), and subsequently obtain the 'biggest bang for your buck', is to go out and hear it - and not just inside the shops of high street dealers. *That's* what it's about, not conducting a competition.

Marco.

[Joe]

We really should consider forming a double-act.

Indeed.

Which reminds me of the story of when '60s comedy double-act Mike and Bernie Winters were performing at the Glasgow Empire, whose audience was always tough on the performers, especially if they were English. Mike Winters, the straight-man, bounded on stage and started doing his spiel, to stony silence. Then Bernie came on stage. 'My God!' called out an audience member 'there's two of the bastards!'

[Macca]

Indeed.

Which reminds me of the story of when '60s comedy double-act Mike and Bernie Winters were performing at the Glasgow Empire, whose audience was always tough on the performers, especially if they were English. Mike Winters, the straight-man, bounded on stage and started doing his spiel, to stony silence. Then Bernie came on stage. 'My God!' called out an audience member 'there's two of the bastards!'

:D

[struth]

The empire could rip you apart :eyebrows:

[Marco]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_Pot_Men

No he was right first time! :lol:

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Not necessarily. That's what forums are for these days! :)

Bear in mind, I'm talking about facilitating the interests of enthusiasts, such as you and me, not the general public. WE get to know about the good stuff because people we've met on AoS, or on other forums, and perhaps have since become friends with, and who's ears we trust, report on it - that is if we don't already know about it ourselves, as a result of visiting someone or attending a bake-off.



Yes you can, because in this instance I'm talking about the £30k Naim system I used to own (CDS2/XPS2/NAC52/Supercap/135s), all bought brand new. I used that with a pair of Spendor SP100s, which was my system for five years before I got into what I'm into now, and learned some very harsh and valuable lessons on how best to invest my money on hi-fi equipment.

Therefore, I'm 100% qualified to make that comparison. I'm not talking about the stuff Naim produce now, although I have my views on that from what I've recently heard at shows. Honestly, if you knew my history with Naim equipment (which I've been using on and off since the 80s), you'd know that few have been more of a fanboy than me!

I still respect the company and consider Paul Stephenson (now retired) as a friend, and that will never change, but reality is reality.



YOU will be, if you get yourself around and listen to other people's kit, especially those who own either DIY or bespoke produced equipment from small, specialist manufacturers.. Use YOUR EARS, rather than relying on those of anyone else, unless you're the unsociable type who just likes to read magazines and keep himself to himself ;)



That's good, and what it's all about, but the only way to learn and understand what else there is out there, with a view to fundamentally improving upon what you currently have (should you wish to do so), and subsequently obtain the 'biggest bang for your buck', is to go out and hear it - and not just inside the shops of high street dealers. *That's* what it's about, not conducting a competition.

Marco.

You still have to market though because you can't rely just on a forum to tell you that a product is great. Because the numbers are somewhat limited. I for instance haven't seen anyone talk about atc speakers very often on this forum. How would I choose them if I wanted too if nobody has them on the forum. I'd rather rely on what people are buying, what reviewers are saying, what dealers are shifting. Forums have a purpose for sharing ideas and asking people's opinions on buying and that's important but I don't think for buying it's the be all and end all, as there doesn't tend to be enough people interested in the particular specific product enough to want it, to think are their views good enough. But a dealer who sells brand a at one price and brand b at the same price, and shifts more of brand a, say 100 more units in a short time frame, is infinitely better information. Also review super tests in mags. Clearly you still have to listen yourself anyway.

I must admit I find it odd how people on this forum often talk about lots of non high street products, other than your current naim, Cyrus, pmc, atc, which are often not current, but aren't talking about current mass market or popular decent hi fi offerings. How would they know therefore if products piss on others.

I don't agree again as saying systems necessarily piss over others, as it's often just often a case of what's different, but clearly some systems do. But you've admitted yourself the products you've owned are different to current offerings. Maybe not all but some.

I'm not really interested in if another persons is 5 percent better than mine, and by the way I believe that's often a very subjective 5 percent. I just want to know what's fantastic, what works really well, how it can be quantified. I think often what people are doing with some of the discussions about changing things is often without this context of what's great. Otherwise why do it. I don't want to constantly try and improve sound just for the sake of 5 percent, but what's fantastic or much improved. But I do think it's funny, coming at this with a certain amount of objectivity as a music lover more than hi-fi-ist, that audiophile people's attitudes to hi fi is that' mine is always better than anyone else's', or mine is better than an equivalent or higher priced system. It's like ones attitude to driving is better than someone else's. It's a kind of snob thing which does get shouted down in the media and I understand why. But I recoil when I hear someone say a cheaper hi fi is better than a more expensive one. Not always the case, but mostly, and this is just real world and you can only do so much at one price. Also there is a reason why pmc are expensive, or naim for e.g., because people are prepared to pay the market price. There is a reason a lesser product is a lower price and they can't achieve the same price for similar spec, because it's not thought of as decent enough. Hard market economics but the rules of economics are true. An obscure less well known hi fi brand would be the first to charge the same as pmc if their products became very reverred because the first rule of business is to achieve highest market price.

I've thought about what would happen if you took the Pepsi challenge with a less reverred brand and price, and it's pretty obvious what would happen.

I'd rather take the attitude mine is good, but it's not the best, nor will it piss on any other system as that's so much dependent not just on me but lots of people, and it's so difficult to get hi fi to make proper comparisons too. Also its so dependent on value, since if £5k extra on the system is worth 20% in sound benefits, is it worth the same value to someone else. You can be assured it won't.

[Arkless Electronics]

The attitudes expounded upon by "dynamics" are exactly those which give the single biggest problem to small manufacturers such as myself... Unfortunately it's a fairly common attitude as well... but fortunately there are still plenty of dissenters too, as eloquently described by Marco!
What do I mean? This whole wanting to be "told" by 20 other enthusiasts, 4 magazine reviews and 3 dealers what to buy before even considering anything.... and even then if it's not a "brand name" it isn't considered.

In my case I'll often offer to make bespoke equipment. One off's. Often I'm hoping this may turn to lets say a run of 10 or 20... But that would probably be it. Obviously to people who require such a mountain of "peer approval" and glossy reviews before buying anything are not going to consider a unit which may have a total production run of 5 or 10!

A specific-ish case would be that I have on several occasions posted in threads about PSU's for specific items that I can build ANY PSU for ANY application at all power levels and voltages, linear regulated or not. Zero interest is the usual result. Why? My best guess is that if, for example, we take the case of PSU's for Technics 1210 TT's, there are a couple of fairly well known PSU's already available whose names always come up in any such discussion, now a non technical person probably won't realise that to an EE such as myself designing and building such a PSU is a piece of piss (to use an old phrase:D), dead easy, I can confidently say that any similar PSU made by myself will be AT LEAST as good, if not better than, anything else available from anywhere else... BUT I guess no one wants to be the first to try an alternative option... simply because they've not read about it elsewhere or seen it recommended elsewhere!

[Dynamics]

Well I sympathise and I admire you for having a hi fi business and being enterprising. You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's and I've tested the Ford out and it's difficult to test such an unknown Lithuanian car.

But I'd gladly borrow power supplies of yours and post around on forums to sing them up if they are any good in my system. I just borrowed a isol-8 mini sub axis, which was pretty good but expensive. And I'm trying out some power regenerators at present. You should do some bake offs with your kit, if you don't already. I not telling you how to suck eggs.

But it strikes me you maybe need to do a lot more marketing if you say they have not read about it. But if you are doing that and it's not selling that's got to tell you something. Sorry if I'm telling you a hard reality,

I've always thought their is good benefit in conditioning and regeneration but for what they are, they are very expensive. At the moment it seems there is ps audio making regenerators costing thousands, then companies like isotek with the Aquarius and isol-8 with the mini sub axis around the same price, and then power inspired with £500 ish regenerators. So it strikes me there is a huge gap in the market for affordable conditioning with similar devices to the Aquarius. Make one yourself if you can, go round to dealers with a badged or unbadged Aquarius and your device and try and sell them at a cheaper price. Maybe Get them made in the Far East etc. You shouldn't defeat yourself people aren't coming to you.

[Simon_LDT]

My take is that while well-known ''branded'' stuff is fine and there are lots of good stuff out there, I don't think it should always be taken that it's the be all end all. Just because something is popular and/or well marketed doesn't mean it's good (and also doesn't mean it's better than something not as well-known).

Myself personally, I do not take most professional reviews as gospel (especially something like WhatHifi). I'd rather read reviews from many peeps that have heard this stuff, rather than listen to a review in a magazine that has most likely been paid for. Even better if I can hear it in person beforehand. I am generalising a bit of course but that is my opinion. It makes forums like here at AOS vital in my opinion. I've learned so much here.

I'm glad there is more of a shift towards ''direct to consumer'' stuff out there, especially with the economic state these days it just makes sense to cut out the middle men if a manufacturer can do that.

[Dynamics]

My take is that while well-known ''branded'' stuff is fine and there are lots of good stuff out there, I don't think it should always be taken that it's the be all end all. Just because something is popular and/or well marketed doesn't mean it's good (and also doesn't mean it's better than something not as well-known).

Myself personally, I do not take most professional reviews as gospel (especially something like WhatHifi). I'd rather read reviews from many peeps that have heard this stuff, rather than listen to a review in a magazine that has most likely been paid for. Even better if I can hear it in person beforehand. I am generalising a bit of course but that is my opinion. It makes forums like here at AOS vital in my opinion. I've learned so much here.

I'm glad there is more of a shift towards ''direct to consumer'' stuff out there, especially with the economic state these days it just makes sense to cut out the middle men if a manufacturer can do that.

I look on the shop websites to see what customers say, so if ten people big up pmc on one shop and 10 on another , but 2 people big up an obscure brand you know which to demo. But magazines don't get paid by firms like pmc for reviews. Can you imagine what would happen if someone found out, they have to be impartial and they are as people who review often don't own the stuff. Also they review an awful lot and have a finger on the pulse of what's good. Also many of the reviewers work for many mags and online sites.

[Marco]

You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's...


With respect, Simon, that smacks of a sheep-like mentality (simply follow the herd, as they must know best), whilst applying zero lateral thinking, or indeed much thinking at all of your own, and it's the complete OPPOSITE of the approach we champion here on AoS.

Who knows, the Lithuanian car in question might be great (just like Skoda are now, compared with what they were once like)? You simply don't know until you try (drive) the car in question for yourself, and exactly as it is with hi-fi, that's the *only* way you'll ever be sure that it's right for YOU, using your judgement criteria, not someone else's.

Also, if all you want to know about is the likes of Linn, Naim or PMC, or whatever else dealers are 'shifting lots of', then I suspect you've joined the wrong forum. I'll get to your other post later, as right now I'm rather busy.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well I sympathise and I admire you for having a hi fi business and being enterprising. You have to admit though that people buy according to what they know and you probably would too. I wouldn't buy a unknown model of car from Lithuania, available in a few dealers in the uk, when everyone is driving fords and vw's and I've tested the Ford out and it's difficult to test such an unknown Lithuanian car.

But I'd gladly borrow power supplies of yours and post around on forums to sing them up if they are any good in my system. I just borrowed a isol-8 mini sub axis, which was pretty good but expensive. And I'm trying out some power regenerators at present. You should do some bake offs with your kit, if you don't already. I not telling you how to suck eggs.

But it strikes me you maybe need to do a lot more marketing if you say they have not read about it. But if you are doing that and it's not selling that's got to tell you something. Sorry if I'm telling you a hard reality,

I've always thought their is good benefit in conditioning and regeneration but for what they are, they are very expensive. At the moment it seems there is ps audio making regenerators costing thousands, then companies like isotek with the Aquarius and isol-8 with the mini sub axis around the same price, and then power inspired with £500 ish regenerators. So it strikes me there is a huge gap in the market for affordable conditioning with similar devices to the Aquarius. Make one yourself if you can, go round to dealers with a badged or unbadged Aquarius and your device and try and sell them at a cheaper price. Maybe Get them made in the Far East etc. You shouldn't defeat yourself people aren't coming to you.

Oh there are, at the moment anyway, quite a few people "coming to me"... Business is on the up and up:)

The last thing I'm trying to do generally is undercut competitors on price. Beat them on quality is more my style as being a one man band means everything is hand built.

I don't believe in mains issues personally but I did offer to make a small reconditioner, which could double as a TT PSU, if there was enough interest about a year or so ago. No interest whatsoever IIRC. It's too big an undertaking in R&D etc to make first and then hope some interest will arise later so I was basically hoping to get at least half a dozen people saying that if I build them, and they are as described, then they would probably buy one. Not to be.

Other things I do make first and then try and build up interest... mainly things I would use myself and I'm therefore happy to do the R&D even if no one else wants one, just so I get to have one!

I've no interest in expanding or getting things made in the Far East!

[Marco]

Just noticed this quickly:


I look on the shop websites to see what customers say, so if ten people big up pmc on one shop and 10 on another , but 2 people big up an obscure brand you know which to demo.


LOL!! Applying a 'Which?' buying philosophy to quality hi-fi equipment is unlikely to get you far :D

Aside from that, you don't know these "people" you mention from Adam, so they could be the biggest bunch of deaf idiots on the planet, yet you'd apportion sufficient credence to their opinions, to a degree that it would so heavily influence your own buying decisions??

Sorry, that's utter madness. If you think that's a good idea, however, then good luck to you! Right, must dash.......

Marco.

[walpurgis]

Oh there are, at the moment anyway, quite a few people "coming to me"... Business is on the up and up:)

That's good Jez. Glad to hear things are improving.

[walpurgis]

I look on the shop websites to see what customers say

User reviews are hopeless and not to be relied on at all. The 'reviews' are the opinions of people who could just be pleased with a new purchase because it seems better than the last piece of junk they bought. Their terms of reference could be anything or nothing.

[Arkless Electronics]

That's good Jez. Glad to hear things are improving.

Thanks Geoff:) I'm hoping it's not just a seasonal blip or some such but yep I'm doing ok at the moment.

[Marco]

User reviews are hopeless and not to be relied on at all. The 'reviews' are the opinions of people who could just be pleased with a new purchase because it seems better than the last piece of junk they bought. Their terms of reference could be anything or nothing.

Indeed - and that's the whole point!

Unlike, for example, here, when someone you've met and heard their system (often on numerous occasions), have conversed with on the forum for many months or years, and so have a good understanding of their sonic priorities, and whether they align with yours or not.

I'm far more likely to listen to them, and perhaps buy something on the strength of their advice, than I would with some 'unknown entity' elsewhere.

Marco.

[Marco]

Thanks Geoff:) I'm hoping it's not just a seasonal blip or some such but yep I'm doing ok at the moment.

Nice one, mate. Long may it continue! :cool:

Marco.

[Dynamics]

User reviews are hopeless and not to be relied on at all. The 'reviews' are the opinions of people who could just be pleased with a new purchase because it seems better than the last piece of junk they bought. Their terms of reference could be anything or nothing.

I agree you can't rely on them fully unto themselves as single reviews, but you have to understand that people who have bought the product have tried it and tried others, thought is it worth it for the price etc. You can rely on it if lots buy, as it's very persuasive of quality, just as you'd buy a focus if lots buy and not a Trabant. Or if people are eating the fish in a restaurant if it's just been caught etc. It's not junk either, as pmc or naim is not a junk brand for instance.

I'd buy if magazines rate it - a number of magazines, if dealers sell a lot, if company websites have customers rating it, and then I go to the shop and I make my own mind up if this is true or not. If it is I buy, if I don't then it isn't in sink with others views. But I certainly wouldn't go to buy 'obscure or relatively unknown electronics' amp because all this information would be less. It's just common sense and within the sphere of audiophile offerings I think most people buy this way. But I somewhat agree you do get some people who go for any old crap.

[walpurgis]

You can rely on it if lots buy, as it's very persuasive of quality

Lots buy Bose and swear it's the best. I don't think I'd be persuaded by that.

[Dynamics]

With respect, Simon, that smacks of a sheep-like mentality (simply follow the herd, as they must know best), whilst applying zero lateral thinking, or indeed much thinking at all of your own, and it's the complete OPPOSITE of the approach we champion here on AoS.

Who knows, the Lithuanian car in question might be great (just like Skoda are now, compared with what they were once like)? You simply don't know until you try (drive) the car in question for yourself, and exactly as it is with hi-fi, that's the *only* way you'll ever be sure that it's right for YOU, using your judgement criteria, not someone else's.

Also, if all you want to know about is the likes of Linn, Naim or PMC, or whatever else dealers are 'shifting lots of', then I suspect you've joined the wrong forum. I'll get to your other post later, as right now I'm rather busy.

Marco.

No I know best, as I make the purchase decision, because I'd go and listen to the rated ones i mention and those that aren't as well, in the sphere of shop offerings, but what I can't do is drive to every unknown manufacturer or dealer with these unknowns because they will be few and far between and some way away and their distribution won't be so good. If they all did free trials or a nominal fee in postage costs, I'm right with them, but sadly I don't see many doing this. I go to audio t instead and trace out dealers of products being raved about by a decent number of people.

Absolutely you are right the Lithuanian car may be better. But I'm not going to drive to Scotland or milies elsewhere to find the one dealer who sells them, and then go to another dealer who sells an obscure make miles away too. I'd check out my local garages, then I might go and pick up from them or a dealer nationwide.

I'm happy to chat to people on this forum, but I do find this kind of obscurism shall I call it, rather odd. As by your own assertion its a person judgement, it's not about what is good, but different to the norm, so you cast out pmc etc because they sell a lot. That seems counter to your own position and shouldn't hi fi be non exclusive, that you say it's down to individual judgement. If the obscure is good buy it, if the common stuff is, buy it too. I'm just explaining the reality of what's possible with these products.

[Dynamics]

Lots buy Bose and swear it's the best. I don't think I'd be persuaded by that.


I'd agree but I'm not talking about Bose which are crap relatively speaking to audiophile brands - I'm talking about brands like pmc, harbeth, atc, spendor, naim, musical fidelity, etc. All very decent. I don't know what a lot of the brands in signatures are. But I could also say Bose are good for what they do, but most people on this forum have spent considerably more than a £1k Bose soundplayer on their hi fi.

[Marco]

As by your own assertion its a person judgement, it's not about what is good, but different to the norm, so you cast out pmc etc because they sell a lot.

I'm not 'casting out' anything. I happen to rate some of PMCs speakers. However, if a talented DIY-er, or small-time specialist speaker manufacturer, produced a design that to my ears was better (and worked better with my equipment), than the PMCs in question, then that's what I'd buy, and I'd care not a jot about who had the 'best established reputation', or how 'well reviewed' their equipment was.

As for your comments about "obscurism", if you've read Our Ethos and followed the discussions here from regulars, you'll know that on AoS we champion the 'little guy', and also the weird and the obscure, simply because that's often where one finds truly great products. It's got to be *really* good though, not just simply obscure for the sake of it!

Also, some of us (me included), providing it sounds superb and ticks all the right boxes, really enjoy owning bespoke-made equipment, designed and/or modified for us, thus making it unique, than something commercially produced in its 100s or 1000s. Almost every part of my system is like that, and that provides me with almost as much satisfaction than the fact that to my ears, it bests everything else I've heard so far, at a price I'm willing to spend.

In fact, I actively go out of my way to BE DIFFERENT from the majority of people, as I hate having the same stuff as everyone else!! ;)

Anyway, I'm dodging between jobs at the moment, so will tackle some of your other points later.

Marco.

[Dynamics]

I respect your view but what I'm asking you to acknowledge which is a problem is this. if a small time specialist produced a better design, it would have to be against what you have, not the current competition, as there would be no reference to current mass market competition. You can't go out and know what the small time players are doing and which is better simply as comparisons cannot be made so easily, as hardly anybody will be buying and hardly anyone reviewing or writing about it. Also such products about with harder distribution. You could go and trial an unknown power supply for £500 and seek it out, and see what it's like relative to your system and current supply, but look at what the reviewers and customers are buying of a power supply at £500 of mass market offerings, I can guarantee it will be better as more people have thought more of it. If the smaller player was good, it would be elevated into the main players products. It's price is worth it. If nobody is willing to entertain this, we aren't really talking about what people think are good, or acknowledging the seeking out of products which are good or not.

[Joe]

There's so many imponderables in this question, the most obvious being, who gets to define 'best', and on which criteria? I'm not sure it matters anyway. Looking at my main system, there's a British-made turntable and tonearm, a Dutch-made cartridge, a British-made CD transport, a French-made integrated amp/Dac, Japanese-made headphone system, and British-made speakers, plus a fine layer of British-made dust.

[walpurgis]

In fact, I actively go out of my way to BE DIFFERENT from the majority of people, as I hate having the same stuff as everyone else!! ;)

Marco.

I have that tendency too Marco. I'm bloody certain nobody else has the same equipment line up I do. Even my Tannoys are rare ones! :)

[struth]

I have that tendency too Marco. I'm bloody certain nobody else has the same equipment line up I do. Even my Tannoys are rare ones! :)

even fewer will have mine :D Coz Its crap;) sorry unusual gear :lol:

[Dynamics]

I have that tendency too Marco. I'm bloody certain nobody else has the same equipment line up I do. Even my Tannoys are rare ones! :)

I just want sound, and best experience and couldn't give a damm if someone has the same shirt, car, or hi fi. If I was to play god and have reviewed every peace of hi fi as a number of other 100 'gods ' had and we rated the products as which were best, I'm sure the products in your kit wouldn't be the very best for your budget in the world, as the same with my system and everyone else's. This is because you can't experience and review all kit yourself. So what have you got to go off - what others have said, what is selling, what is independent reviewed, what sounds good to you. Then weigh it up and decide to buy. This is the very best you can do. I don't understand why someone would limit options of what's good by checking out less well known products, then check them against their own kit but not against what a lot of other stuff people are buying.

[Marco]

if a small time specialist produced a better design, it would have to be against what you have, not the current competition, as there would be no reference to current mass market competition.


Of course, and I haven't claimed differently!

It's only afterwards, once having bought the gear from a "small-time specialist", when taking it to shows and bake-offs, and TESTING it in the context of other systems, and with all sorts of different equipment, that I'm then in a position to judge it against some of the current competition I've compared it with.

This is what you seem to be refusing to do, and would instead rather pay attention to marketing and website reviews, from folk you don't know, or indeed how good their ears actually are. That for me, is more likely a recipe for failure, or rather you potentially missing out on hearing all sorts of wonderful gear, than my approach, simply because you're not willing to make the effort to seek out anything that's a bit different from the norm, and ultimately are influenced by un-trusted ears.

When I lived in Glasgow, I traveled to Bath and back in the same day, to buy my first pair of Spendors (from The Right Note). Since moving down to North Wales, I've traveled to Penzance and back in the same day, to buy the Tannoys I now use - and I've embarked upon umpteen journeys like that, all over the UK, either to buy something I want, or hear something I'm interested in.

If I want something badly enough, then distance (within the UK) is NO object! :)

Also, I've taken quite a few 'blind punts' on stuff, often where I've had no other option (such as with cartridges), but also with my modified Technics SL-1210, which I initially bought from a company in the US (KAB), and had to fork out £1500 upfront, to buy a stock MK5G from the chap in question and for him to apply all his mods to it - then when it was ready and had been shipped to me, cough up the tax and import duty on top, for something, to all intents and purposes I had no idea how it would sound....! :eek:

Fortunately, the gamble paid off handsomely, as has indeed been the case with the vast majority of 'educated punts', but that's only because I do my homework first on the product concerned, and eliminate as far as possible the likelihood for disappointment - and virtually my whole system has been assembled that way, with little help needed from dealers or magazine reviews.

Each to his or her own, of course, but it's that sort of level of commitment and endeavour, coupled with lateral thinking and the desire to be different, which we promote and value on AoS, not simply walking into your local dealer and buying the latest 'must have' new toy. However, whether you decide to go that route or not is up to you.

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Of course, and I haven't claimed differently!

It's only afterwards, once having bought the gear from "a small-time specialist", when taking it to shows and bake-offs, and TESTING it in the context of other systems, and with all sorts of different equipment, that I'm then in a position to judge it against some of the current competition I've compared it with.

This is what you seem to be refusing to do, and would instead rather pay attention to marketing and website reviews, from folk you don't know, or indeed how good their ears actually are. That for me, is more than likely a recipe for failure, or rather for you potentially missing out on hearing all sorts of wonderful gear, simply because you're not willing to make the effort to seek out anything that's a bit different from the norm.

When I lived in Glasgow, I traveled to Bath and back in the same day, to buy my first pair of Spendors (from The Right Note). Since moving down to North Wales, I've traveled to Penzance and back in the same day, to buy the Tannoys I now use - and I've embarked upon umpteen journeys like that, all over the UK, either to buy something I want, or hear something I'm interested in.

If I want something badly enough, then distance (within the UK) is NO object! :)

Also, I've taken quite a few 'blind punts' on stuff, often where I've had no other option (such as with cartridges), but also with my modified Technics SL-1210, which I initially bought blind from a company in the US, and had to fork out £1500 upfront, to buy a stock MK5G from the chap in question and for him to apply all his mods to it - then when it was ready, cough up the tax and import duty on top, for something, to all intents and purposes I had no idea how it would sound....! :eek:

Fortunately, the gamble paid off handsomely, as has indeed been the case with the vast majority of 'educated punts', but that's only because I do my homework first on the product concerned, and eliminate as far as possible the likelihood for disappointment - and virtually my whole system has been assembled that way, with little help needed from dealers or magazine reviews.

Each to his or her own, of course, but it's that sort of level of commitment and endevour, coupled with lateral thinking and the desire to be different, which we promote and value on AoS, but whether you decide to go that route or not is up to you.

Marco.

But what if you've bought a small time player power supply that's rubbish compared to another more well known brand. I don't think people normally buy before you are satisfied otherwise people wouldn't drive all that way. Or a power conditioner of a unknown compared to a conditioner of a known.

So I heard the isol-8 devices and isotek Aquarius and they are very good around a grand. I'd love there to be a cheaper device alternate but discussions I have with people on here, nobody knows as they don't tend to buy these isotek devices. It need not be a expensive one, but how would I find out if a isotek Polaris is as good as a unknown make for the same or similar thing, if nobody on here knows about the isotek or has done a comparison to a cheaper one and can tell me that. It's a total head-Uck. You are right I may be on the wrong site, but I do like you guys.

I think it's more a recipe for failure if you pick a product used by very few with no proper comparisons. You can't expect me to believe you wouldn't sell the stuff back if the branded stuff is better, assuming ones set up includes hardly any branded stuff.

I've done a comparison and to ask if a smaller player conditioner works better, but nobody can tell me that. It seems to me, people experience in the smaller player market due to value price and see what they can do with their systems from there. That's fine. I don't mind spending if it really is good and great sound. Ill get that from more experience of buyers and people who trial different units. I'm slightly convinced on the power inspired regenerator, so it's not like I cast out smaller players all the time.

[alphaGT]

This thread has gotten off topic, but that's what conversations do I suppose. Both Simon and Marco have their points. If one is exposed to some local talent that can make some top notch gear, for competitive prices, then why not indulge? But out here in the real world, how many people have ever even heard of this local talent? Say I'm shopping for a preamp, (and I am), there are literally thousands out there! How do I hope to narrow down the list to a reasonable length that I may actually go and hear some of them to make a decision? I must rely on reviews, of all kinds, to help me narrow it down. I cannot go hear in person 1,000 preamps. And perhaps there is a local talent that can make a preamp to "piss on" all the rest? What are my hopes of auditioning one? I can't pop around to the next bake off. (Coincidentally around here a "bake off" is when everyone gets stoned) I can go to several local salons and hear what they have to offer, which will be name brand gear. There is a local Richmond VA high fi club, Audiophile group, or whatever they call themselves. But I've investigated and if you aren't a doctor or lawyer, you will not fit in. And they do not Champlain any local DIY gear I can be sure of that.

So it is great if you can be part of this forum and live local to most of you and attend the bake offs and use that exposure to help decide on your next piece of gear. But to 99.99999% of the world, that is just not an option. If I did invest in a piece of equipment made by one of the members of this forum, I would be taking your personal reviews of that gear to heart, and buying sight unseen, so how is that different?

A happy medium would be to say that an audio enthusiast should use all avenues open to him to get out and hear what is available to him, both big and small, and not just buy what's on the latest cover of Stereophile. But the written word is a necessary way to narrow the field for most of us. I find that good personal reviews are limited in usefulness, but bad reviews are more telling. If I read that 3/4 of all reviews on a product are bad, that right there is a sign! They may even sound great! But if it breaks down 75% of the time, or the company's service is gawd awful, I don't care how great it sounds, it's not for me. And that is information you may not pick up on at a local bake off.

Back to the original thread, it is true that my entire system is American made at this point. And I didn't do it on purpose, it just wound up that way. Perhaps because most of the gear I am exposed to is made here locally? I recall back in the younger days of hi fi, British gear was well respected! Considered the best! Old Quad amps and ESL's, those were the choice of the golden eared! Quick Silvers, many others, my memory fails me. The American market was younger, just a few good designers starting out, but the British had been there, more mature offerings. Of course over the years that has changed. We still see British gear for sale here, but it doesn't carry the weight it once did. But I suppose if one lives in England, it's not hard to outfit your living room with all British gear? Just as I have filled mine with American gear, because it was most available, what I was most likely to hear when comparing. If one lived in Japan, I'm sure it would be very easy to have a top notch system made completely in Japan. Even China has a few true hi end makers coming about. We just haven't heard about them as much, but if you lived in china I'm sure you could assemble a decent system out of local pieces. Is there a local sound? Now this I may be leaning towards, I know there is a real difference between the Japanese offerings and American offerings, both good mind you, but perhaps a little bit different philosophy of design.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marco]

But what if you've bought a small time player power supply that's rubbish compared to another more well known brand.

Then (if I discovered that fact in due course) I'd simply sell the former and buy the latter, but I can assure you, if the small time player in question is suitably talented, it's usually the other way round!! ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I respect your view but what I'm asking you to acknowledge which is a problem is this. if a small time specialist produced a better design, it would have to be against what you have, not the current competition, as there would be no reference to current mass market competition. You can't go out and know what the small time players are doing and which is better simply as comparisons cannot be made so easily, as hardly anybody will be buying and hardly anyone reviewing or writing about it. Also such products about with harder distribution. You could go and trial an unknown power supply for £500 and seek it out, and see what it's like relative to your system and current supply, but look at what the reviewers and customers are buying of a power supply at £500 of mass market offerings, I can guarantee it will be better as more people have thought more of it. If the smaller player was good, it would be elevated into the main players products. It's price is worth it. If nobody is willing to entertain this, we aren't really talking about what people think are good, or acknowledging the seeking out of products which are good or not.

Definitely going on ignore list... Unbelievable.

[Dynamics]

I wouldn't buy anything from you. Maybe not great business to be posting your post.

[farflungstar]

Jez, I'm sure you're going to be hit hard by Marco for that - but I'm sure you're not alone in your conclusion.

[Marco]

Indeed. Jez, put Simon on your ignore list and be done with it. If you come out with anything like that again, you're out for a week!

And that also applies to you Simon, if you respond any further to him. I suggest you also put Jez on your ignore list.

Enough! Stop behaving like kids and get back to the subject of the thread.

Marco.

[farflungstar]

How do you put someone on your ignore list?

I'm with jez who I think has behaved very well until now considering, as have I, the bile - and I've had my fall outs with jez!

[Marco]

Go to Settings (at the top of the homepage), scroll down a bit, > My Account > Edit Ignore List, pop whoever's name you like in there and save it.

Marco.

[farflungstar]

Ok - I'm on Tapatalk buy will go to the web to do it later. Thanks Marco.

[Macca]

I don't know what the obsession is with having to listen to everything first.

I didn't listen to any of my current system before I bought it. The few items that I have demoed at dealers and then bought I was not happy with long-term. They were all products that were popular: sold well and had good magazine reviews. Means nothing.

Once you've owned and heard enough gear and you know what sort of a presentation and what level of quality you require as a minimum it really isn't that hard. Having a basic grasp of how it works helps too, you can easily discard all the bullshit and the stuff that is over-priced for what it is then.

When you hear systems that have been built completely by the owners, often for not massive amount of money, and they compete in quality with the six figure stuff at shows, you start to re-asses what matters and what it needs to cost. Personally I like to keep costs down so I always buy second-hand, save the VAT, the dealer and the distributor margin, paying maybe one-tenth of what the item would cost new. If I had the cash to chuck around I would have everything custom-built by small-scale specialists like Jez.

Either way, buying used or buying bespoke, you are getting far greater value for money than buying a brand new item from a dealer where 80% or more of the money you are paying is unrelated to the cost of the parts and labour. With used or bespoke you are maximising the percentage of the spend on parts and labour. That is going to make a significant difference in the level of quality you are getting for your money.

[Arkless Electronics]

I don't know what the obsession is with having to listen to everything first.

I didn't listen to any of my current system before I bought it. The few items that I have demoed at dealers and then bought I was not happy with long-term. They were all products that were popular: sold well and had good magazine reviews. Means nothing.

Once you've owned and heard enough gear and you know what sort of a presentation and what level of quality you require as a minimum it really isn't that hard. Having a basic grasp of how it works helps too, you can easily discard all the bullshit and the stuff that is over-priced for what it is then.

When you hear systems that have been built completely by the owners, often for not massive amount of money, and they compete in quality with the six figure stuff at shows, you start to re-asses what matters and what it needs to cost. Personally I like to keep costs down so I always buy second-hand, save the VAT, the dealer and the distributor margin, paying maybe one-tenth of what the item would cost new. If I had the cash to chuck around I would have everything custom-built by small-scale specialists like Jez.

Either way, buying used or buying bespoke, you are getting far greater value for money than buying a brand new item from a dealer where 80% or more of the money you are paying is unrelated to the cost of the parts and labour. With used or bespoke you are maximising the percentage of the spend on parts and labour. That is going to make a significant difference in the level of quality you are getting for your money.

Around 20% of customers for the Arkless 640P phono stage bought blind. All were over the moon when they heard it! :cool:

When I was about 18 I auditioned some AR 18 speakers due to all the rave reviews and best buy accolades... I couldn't believe how bad they were!

[Dynamics]

I don't know what the obsession is with having to listen to everything first.

I didn't listen to any of my current system before I bought it. The few items that I have demoed at dealers and then bought I was not happy with long-term. They were all products that were popular: sold well and had good magazine reviews. Means nothing.

Once you've owned and heard enough gear and you know what sort of a presentation and what level of quality you require as a minimum it really isn't that hard. Having a basic grasp of how it works helps too, you can easily discard all the bullshit and the stuff that is over-priced for what it is then.

When you hear systems that have been built completely by the owners, often for not massive amount of money, and they compete in quality with the six figure stuff at shows, you start to re-asses what matters and what it needs to cost. Personally I like to keep costs down so I always buy second-hand, save the VAT, the dealer and the distributor margin, paying maybe one-tenth of what the item would cost new. If I had the cash to chuck around I would have everything custom-built by small-scale specialists like Jez.

Either way, buying used or buying bespoke, you are getting far greater value for money than buying a brand new item from a dealer where 80% or more of the money you are paying is unrelated to the cost of the parts and labour. With used or bespoke you are maximising the percentage of the spend on parts and labour. That is going to make a significant difference in the level of quality you are getting for your money.

I don't buy that. You get what you pay for most of the time, albeit law of diminishing returns. It's wishful thinking they compete and also you are paying for design too. A one man band doesn't have the design of a big player, with the resource available. What shows do they actually compare them at. I don't think so

Anyone can bring £5k worth of homemade stuff to a test and I doubt it would compete with £15k.

[hermit]

Hard to believe that Scotland hasn't been nominated :)

[Macca]

I don't buy that. You get what you pay for most of the time, albeit law of diminishing returns. It's wishful thinking they compete and also you are paying for design too. A one man band doesn't have the design of a big player, with the resource available. What shows do they actually compare them at. I don't think so

Anyone can bring £5k worth of homemade stuff to a test and I doubt it would compete with £15k.

I've heard a few DIY systems at less than 5K that were as good and even better than £150K of top of the line stuff. I've also heard some bloody good top of the line stuff too but think that retail price is a reliable indicator of sound quality is a big mistake to make.

If I was buying new from a dealer with a £15K budget I think I might struggle to get a system that I would be happy with its capabilities. Maybe just about for that money. £10K would definitely not cut it. Have you seen what decent speakers cost these days?

[Marco]

I don't buy that.

How can you not buy it, Simon? Are you saying that Martin's a liar? It's the results of his experience to date, so you should acknowledge and accept that fact.

Disagree, by all means, in terms of if your experience suggests the contrary, but to say you don't buy what is someone's honest account of what they've discovered, is rather disrespectful.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Hard to believe that Scotland hasn't been nominated :)

Ariston were very good in their day... and I believe STD (305M etc) were Scottish and I think Haynes are on a Scottish island but I can't think of many more that make HI-FI equipment still today?

[farflungstar]

This is why second hand is the best route. There are very few genuine breakthroughs in audio - most of this year's must have gear is just tweaked, redressed last year's must have. It's called commerce.

[Marco]

Hard to believe that Scotland hasn't been nominated...

Haha - lovin' your new avvy, Paul! Why haven't you been participating in the football thread? :)

Get your arse over there mate, and join in the celebrations: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?45425-New-Footy-Season-2016-17-How-s-your-team-doing&p=868622#post868622

:cool:

Marco.

[Dynamics]

I think you can make that link most of the time. I'd happily have a bet with you for my house, that if you set up the best £5k system for the money you could against the best system at £150k, in a blind test, most people would go for the £150k one. It would actually be very easy. Unfortunately with hi fi these tests are never really that objective, because it's easy to say a £5000 is best because people start to think is better value and it probably is. But nobody ever takes the law of diminishing returns into account, such that a 150k system is never 10 times better than a 15k one. This is what draws people into thinking more expensive systems aren't as good, and it's a human thing to say a Nissan is as good as a Ferrari.

My speakers I'd say are decent and not masses of cash. A new model of last year. But not the best, but nothing ever is relatively speaking.

[Dynamics]

How can you not buy it, Simon? Are you saying that Martin's a liar? It's the results of his experience to date, so you should acknowledge and accept that fact.

Disagree, by all means, in terms of if your experience suggests the contrary, but to say you don't buy what is someone's honest account of what they've discovered, is rather disrespectful.

Marco.

No, not at all I'm not saying anyone is a liar. I'm saying I don't trust or buy that particular view. Because that's what it is i.e. A view or opinion. So I'm not being disresptful.

There is an awful lot of bs in hi-fi circles and when people start telling me that cheaper hi fi is as good, it goes against my experiences of upgrades and pretty much every other area of consumerism where you get what you pay for. You tend to get better quality as you pay more. It is almost definitely better value with law of dim returns, in a cheaper system, but better is a different matter. It's also human nature to start saying my car handles as one four times the price, and is of the same quality.

We've all been to shows and heard stuff that's blown our systems to bits, they tend to be more expensive.

[hermit]

Ariston were very good in their day... and I believe STD (305M etc) were Scottish and I think Haynes are on a Scottish island but I can't think of many more that make HI-FI equipment still today?

You could buy an arm from Johnny at Audio Origami and I believe Linn can sell you everything else or if you prefer proper big speakers there's Tannoy :lol:

[Macca]

I think you can make that link most of the time. I'd happily have a bet with you for my house, that if you set up the best £5k system for the money you could against the best system at £150k, in a blind test, most people would go for the £150k one. .

If they knew the costs. But if it was totally blind, and they just have to say which they prefer, you might be down a house. It can be very strange what people prefer especially when they can't see the kit making the noise. Check some of the blind speaker tests from the old Hi Fi Choice if you don't believe me.

[alphaGT]

I agree whole heartedly about buying used. I don't really think about what part of the money goes where, but I do like paying 1/3rd to 1/4th new prices. Sure new gear sounds great! But we weren't listening to crap 10 years ago either! In fact, some of the best systems I've ever heard were probably about 10 to 20 years ago. Not that they don't still sound good, but just that they were not bad back then. Like laundry detergent that claims new and improved! What was the old soap like? Old and sub par? The internet has facilitated the used audio market, and my present system is better than my last one for that very reason!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Marco]

There is an awful lot of bs in hi-fi circles and when people start telling me that cheaper hi fi is as good, it goes against my experiences of upgrades and pretty much every other area of consumerism where you get what you pay for.

So why not instead entertain the notion that Martin *may* have a point, which you'd like to investigate and see whether there's any truth in it, instead of being so closed-minded as to dismiss it completely out of hand? Or are you one of these stubborn and pigheaded people who refuse to change their opinions EVER? ;)

Therefore, in the interests of said investigating, here's a question: would you be willing to attend a meet/bake-off in your area, where some of the bespoke equipment we're talking about was put up against similarly priced and/or more expensive commercial equipment?

Yes or no?

Marco.

[Dynamics]

If they knew the costs. But if it was totally blind, and they just have to say which they prefer, you might be down a house. It can be very strange what people prefer especially when they can't see the kit making the noise. Check some of the blind speaker tests from the old Hi Fi Choice if you don't believe me.


I don't think preferring some kit necessarily makes it better per see as a stereo. If it's subjective and ones preference , it takes out the issue of what is better. Obviously you buy what you think is best, so that's the measure. It's subjective in that sense.

But there are things you can measure in a listening sense, like dynamics, scale, realism, clarity, which a more expensive system can often do better.

I could say I don't like any bass and I want an iPod dock, that's what I like, but it doesn't make it better than a system that conveys bass better, much deeper and punchier, and is £5k. The measure is what faithfully reproduces the music better. The issue with hi fi is if you sent people in with audiophile experience and asked them to score these areas - bass punch, clarity, dynamics. These are all things which make a hifi good or not. Then you'd explain it better as to what is good. If you then said do you prefer that system with better dynamics or scale, they'd probably say yes if each measure is better, which is likely.

People can't ever say that cheaper systems are better than more expensive ones as that introduces more error and multiplying each persons view. So if you wanted to do this, you have to have some science to it. Preference is another matter. But if you conceded it's just about preference you'd have to say a £150k system could be better than a £5k one even if it was not technically better on these testing variables of scale etc, i.e. Just by chance.

That's when the subjectivenss of hi fi comes in for people to then think that's not great value, my system sounds better for the money, it's not a huge difference. These are all things which make us think ours is better than more expensive systems, or difference in taste. You can put something down if the bass is less or more or whatever. But I never think that mine is best, as I know another is better. But I'm happy with what I have, more than happy.

[Macca]

So why not instead entertain the notion that Martin *may* have a point, which you'd like to investigate and see whether there's any truth in it, instead of being so closed-minded as to dismiss it completely out of hand? Or are you one of these stubborn and pigheaded people who refuse to change their opinions EVER? ;)

.

I don't mind. I'm used to people dismissing what I say out of hand ;)

You do something for 30 years you have to learn something. And I'm not one of these people who took a break from the hobby for work or children or whatever. I've been doing it the whole time, even when money was really tight. I don't have ay issue with people who prefer to go to dealers and buy brand new respected badge equipment. Their choice and their money. They don't want to learn all about hi-fi, they just wasn't something good to listen to their music on.

What I'm into is the thrift aspect. How good can you get it without spending top dollar? Much more interesting, much more of a challenge. You have to start learning how it all works. Not to the point where you could design and build it yourself, although plenty of people have done just that, but just to the point where you can make informed decisions about where and how to spend the budget.

[Marco]

If they knew the costs. But if it was totally blind, and they just have to say which they prefer, you might be down a house.

Indeed. In that respect, I look forward soon to being the proud new owner of Simon's Sussex pile! :eyebrows:

In any case, the idea that you get what you pay for, whilst often the case, ignores the fact (especially in high-end audio) where you can pay massively over the odds simply for the badge, and/or the notion of exclusivity, especially when you get to the likes of £150k systems.

How much of what you're paying for is 'brand/badge desirability', and crucially, how much is down to what is perceived by the manufacturer as what the market will stand?

In that respect, my experience of folk (and remember I've worked for specialist hi-fi dealerships in the past, so I'm familiar with their clientele), is that if it's too cheap they won't buy it!!

That's why some hi-fi equipment costs the huge sums it does: to create an air of exclusivity, which appeals to their customers., not because it's necessarily any better than something that's half the price, or less...

So once you've knocked all of the above off of the price tag, how much has *actually* been spent where it matters most, 'under the hood'...? *Only then* will you know if 'you get what you pay for', in terms of out-and-out sonic performance, or not!

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

You could buy an arm from Johnny at Audio Origami and I believe Linn can sell you everything else or if you prefer proper big speakers there's Tannoy :lol:

Ah yes Tannoy moved there ages ago! Linn can keep their erm.. "hi fi" gear :D

[Dynamics]

So why not instead entertain the notion that Martin *may* have a point, which you'd like to investigate and see whether there's any truth in it, instead of being so closed-minded as to dismiss it completely out of hand? Or are you one of these stubborn and pigheaded people who refuse to change their opinions EVER? ;)

Therefore, in the interests of said investigating, here's a question: would you be willing to attend a meet/bake-off in your area, where some of the bespoke equipment we're talking about was put up against similarly priced and/or more expensive commercial equipment?

Yes or no?

Marco.

Absolutely yes. People can come to mine if they like. Maybe try £2k worth of amps against say my £7k Cyrus stuff. Use my pmc speakers as control.

I don't have to entertain a notion if it's not lacking credibility for my view. It's like saying you can go and have a burger for £1 outside b and q, or go into town and have a £7 one in a gourmet type burger place. I don't need to question if the £1 one might be better, most people would just go and have a decent meal. Also for real world realisations as I mentioned, and my experiences of buying hi fi and every other stuff. I've never bought anything in luxury purchases like hi fi that are better when cheaper. Probably tens of items in my life. Not only that but with all other purchases too.

What would be have to compare do you reckon.

But isn't your suggestion a leap of faith if maybe nobody knows what my Cyrus stuff does as a complete system. Your hypothesis is to test cheaper is better before you maybe know what the more expensive Cyrus system is like.

[Macca]

I don't think preferring some kit necessarily makes it better per see as a stereo. If it's subjective and ones preference , it takes out the issue of what is better. Obviously you buy what you think is best, so that's the measure. It's subjective in that sense.

But there are things you can measure in a listening sense, like dynamics, scale, realism, clarity, which a more expensive system can often do better.

I could say I don't like any bass and I want an iPod dock, that's what I like, but it doesn't make it better than a system that conveys bass better, much deeper and punchier, and is £5k. The measure is what faithfully reproduces the music better. The issue with hi fi is if you sent people in with audiophile experience and asked them to score these areas - bass punch, clarity, dynamics. These are all things which make a hifi good or not. Then you'd explain it better as to what is good. If you then said do you prefer that system with better dynamics or scale, they'd probably say yes if each measure is better, which is likely.

People can't ever say that cheaper systems are better than more expensive ones as that introduces more error and multiplying each persons view. So if you wanted to do this, you have to have some science to it. Preference is another matter. But if you conceded it's just about preference you'd have to say a £150k system could be better than a £5k one even if it was not technically better on these testing variables of scale etc, i.e. Just by chance.

That's when the subjectivenss of hi fi comes in for people to then think that's not great value, my system sounds better for the money, it's not a huge difference. These are all things which make us think ours is better than more expensive systems, or difference in taste. You can put something down if the bass is less or more or whatever. But I never think that mine is best, as I know another is better. But I'm happy with what I have, more than happy.

Your confusing best in a technical sense with 'which one do you want to take home with you?'

It is one or the other, either you judge on measurements or on preference for how it sounds. Getting a load of audiophiles to listen and mark them out of ten for 'bass punch' or whatever isn't at all scientific, it's just making a meal of it.

[Dynamics]

I don't mind. I'm used to people dismissing what I say out of hand ;)

You do something for 30 years you have to learn something. And I'm not one of these people who took a break from the hobby for work or children or whatever. I've been doing it the whole time, even when money was really tight. I don't have ay issue with people who prefer to go to dealers and buy brand new respected badge equipment. Their choice and their money. They don't want to learn all about hi-fi, they just wasn't something good to listen to their music on.

What I'm into is the thrift aspect. How good can you get it without spending top dollar? Much more interesting, much more of a challenge. You have to start learning how it all works. Not to the point where you could design and build it yourself, although plenty of people have done just that, but just to the point where you can make informed decisions about where and how to spend the budget.

I'd agree it's much more difficult. A seriously more difficult question to get £500 speakers sounding like £4000 ones. That's my point which you are making for me. And Id never critique anyone wanting to spend the money and get the most out if it, but that's a different question to best hi fi.

[Dynamics]

Your confusing best in a technical sense with 'which one do you want to take home with you?'

It is one or the other, either you judge on measurements or on preference for how it sounds. Getting a load of audiophiles to listen and mark them out of ten for 'bass punch' or whatever isn't at all scientific, it's just making a meal of it.

I am confusing it purposefully because if you wanted to test the question is a £150k hi fi better than a £5k one, you'd have to test it on measurable standards and scientifically. I'm not talking sound meters but an element of scoring dynamics etc. It wouldn't be making a meal out if it. It would be testing a hypothesis and analysing that hypothesis. On what ingredients make the sound best and most faithful, what they are, i.e. The variables for this, and scoring.

I could do that with an iPod dock and my system and it would be an extreme test, but if I then got others to rate dynamics on a scale according to best, better, worse etc, you could score what's better to the hypothesis.

[Dynamics]

Ps You also have to link ones blind preference for the sound in the two systems to what you consider better, and see apatern of this preference for expense. And what then significance you place on the preference test for the hypothesis test I mention. As with any hi fi our preference is so much dependent on what systems we've had.

[Firebottle]

Anyone can bring £5k worth of homemade stuff to a test and I doubt it would compete with £15k.

You'd better believe it would. There are some very talented DIYers and designers, not necessarily on this forum, that make stuff that is world class.

On this forum Jez is a very experienced designer, having heard one of his products I would certainly mark that as world class.

[Macca]

I'd agree it's much more difficult. A seriously more difficult question to get £500 speakers sounding like £4000 ones. That's my point which you are making for me. And Id never critique anyone wanting to spend the money and get the most out if it, but that's a different question to best hi fi.

The trick is to buy the £4K speakers for £400. Or to build some speakers for £400 that compare to the £4K speakers. There is not a lot of moneys worth of parts in a speaker retailing for £4K. Likely about £200 was spent there.

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

[Marco]

Absolutely yes. People can come to mine if they like. Maybe try £2k worth of amps against say my £7k Cyrus stuff. Use my pmc speakers as control.


Good! Then, we'll arrange that sometime, sooner rather than later :)


It's like saying you can go and have a burger for £1 outside b and q, or go into town and have a £7 one in a gourmet type burger place. I don't need to question if the £1 one might be better, most people would just go and have a decent meal.


Sorry, don't get what you mean.... :scratch:

However, have you considered the notion that the gourmet type burger place might simply be selling the same burgers as the van outside B&Q, and fooling their customers into thinking that it's "gourmet", simply because it's presented beautifully, and they're eating it in posh surroundings and paying top dollar for the privilege? ;)

Also, what if you know a top chef, and he regularly invites you round to his place for a meal, either free of charge or costing you half the price of what the same meal would be in his restaurant? Does that make the meal any less good than it would be if you'd paid much more for exactly the same thing, eaten at said restaurant?

Now consider replacing the meal and the chef, with your relationship with a top audio designer, who has the ability to build superb hi-fi equipment, as well as anyone commercially, just like the chef could do with food, but like the chef, charges you what amounts to 'mates rates' (in comparison with the cost of a similar standard of commercial equipment), simply because he works from home and doesn't have many overheads...

Do you see where I'm going with this?? And some of us here have those types of friends!

Marco.

[Marco]

Ps You also have to link ones blind preference for the sound in the two systems to what you consider better, and see apatern of this preference for expense. And what then significance you place on the preference test for the hypothesis test I mention. As with any hi fi our preference is so much dependent on what systems we've had.

Fancy addressing my post #104? ;)

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Indeed. In that respect, I look forward soon to being the proud new owner of Simon's Sussex pile! :eyebrows:

In any case, the idea that you get what you pay for, whilst often the case, ignores the fact (especially in high-end audio) where you can pay massively over the odds simply for the badge, and/or the notion of exclusivity, especially when you get to the likes of £150k systems.

How much of what you're paying for is 'brand/badge desirability', and crucially, how much is down to what is perceived by the manufacturer as what the market will stand?

In that respect, my experience of folk (and remember I've worked for specialist hi-fi dealerships in the past, so I'm familiar with their clientele), is that if it's too cheap they won't buy it!!

That's why some hi-fi equipment costs the huge sums it does: to create an air of exclusivity, which appeals to their customers., not because it's necessarily any better than something that's half the price, or less...

So once you've knocked all of the above off of the price tag, how much has *actually* been spent where it matters most, 'under the hood'...? *Only then* will you know if 'you get what you pay for', in terms of out-and-out sonic performance, or not!

Marco.

Yep. If you buy a £2K amp from a big manufacturer and through a dealer then the dealer gets about £1K for selling it for a start... by the time you look at overheads for the staff, advertising budget, PR gurus, manufacturers profit margin etc you could be looking at as little as £100 or so in material cost to the manufacturer.

[walpurgis]

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

Good point Martin. You should start a thread on that! :)

[Marco]

Yep. If you buy a £2K amp from a big manufacturer and through a dealer then the dealer gets about £1K for selling it for a start... by the time you look at overheads for the staff, advertising budget, PR gurus, manufacturers profit margin etc you could be looking at as little as £100 or so in material cost to the manufacturer.

Precisely!! So how exactly does that impact on Simon's notion of 'you get what you pay for'?

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

You'd better believe it would. There are some very talented DIYers and designers, not necessarily on this forum, that make stuff that is world class.

On this forum Jez is a very experienced designer, having heard one of his products I would certainly mark that as world class.

Thanks Alan:) That would have been my rather expensive head amp I guess...

Heard your KIN briefly at a NEBO and thought it excellent;)

[Dynamics]

The trick is to buy the £4K speakers for £400. Or to build some speakers for £400 that compare to the £4K speakers. There is not a lot of moneys worth of parts in a speaker retailing for £4K. Likely about £200 was spent there.

The other trick is not to waste money on things that makes no difference. But that's a whole topic in itself.

I'd dispute that as the £400 one is probably at least ten years old, the tech has moved on now. The stuff is getting old and not so new, you end up replacing the crossovers etc. There is not a lot of money in speakers yes but an awful lot of design and costs and incidental staff costs, and buildings. Stuff that has to go in to designing the speaker. And you cant expect people to believe that someone like naim who have million pound development budgets probably, can't do something better with that than an odd jobber with a soldering iron and no decent design and testing budget. An awful lot goes into developing a hi fi amp I'm sure.

[Dynamics]

Precisely!! So how exactly does that impact on Simon's notion of 'you get what you pay for'?

Marco.

Yes but arkless don't have the development budget to produce the same quality I'd doubt, relative of say of a naim or arcam etc, the staff, The bigger premises, the hr and health and safety costs etc. Also not as scaled. That's before those comments to potential customers.

[Macca]

I'd dispute that as the £400 one is probably at least ten years old, the tech has moved on now. The stuff is getting old and not so new, you end up replacing the crossovers etc. There is not a lot of money in speakers yes but an awful lot of design and costs and incidental staff costs, and buildings. Stuff that has to go in to designing the speaker. And you cant expect people to believe that someone like naim who have million pound development budgets probably, can't do something better with that than an odd jobber with a soldering iron and no decent design and testing budget. An awful lot goes into developing a hi fi amp I'm sure.

I'll let Jez answer that :eyebrows: but you are really way off beam as to how it all actually goes down.

[Arkless Electronics]

Precisely!! So how exactly does that impact on Simon's notion of 'you get what you pay for'?

Marco.

When I worked for Musical Fidelity I saw a BOM with pricing to them for the parts for an A370 power amp (about £3K at the time, more like £5K in today's money) and it came to about £270 IIRC. MF were a medium to large company at the time and these were not made in huge quantities. Something made by a bigger company and selling for a lower price would be proportionately much less for the parts than this.

[Marco]

I'll let Jez answer that :eyebrows: but you are really way off beam as to how it all actually goes down.

Indeed. The poor boy has much to learn!! :doh: :D

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Good! Then, we'll arrange that sometime, sooner rather than later :)



Sorry, don't get what you mean.... :scratch:

However, have you considered the notion that the gourmet type burger place might simply be selling the same burgers as the van outside B&Q, and fooling their customers into thinking that it's "gourmet", simply because they're eating it in posh surroundings? ;)

Also, what if you know a top chef, and he regularly invites you round to his place for a meal, either free of charge or costing you half the price of what the same meal would be in his restaurant? Does that make the meal any less good than it would be if you'd paid much more for exactly the same thing, eaten in his fancy restaurant?

Now consider replacing the meal and the chef, with your relationship with a top audio designer, who has the ability to build superb hi-fi equipment, as well as anyone commercially, just like the chef could do with food, but like the chef, charges you what amounts to 'mates rates' (in comparison with a similar standard of commercial equipment), simply because he works from home and doesn't have many overheads...

Do you see where I'm going with this?? And some of us here have those types of friends!

Marco.

No it comes with fat oozing out, stale bun. I get some nice Stilton on the gourmet place, nice salad, fresh baked bread. I can expect this for £1. That's the question you aren't asking. What is real world. What can I expect. If I went to the gourmet place and got the burger dripping fat and paid £7, I don't go back. Neither does anyone else. Now they charge £1'like the burger van outside b and q. Now if I want a £1 quick burger just on the go, I go to gourmet burger or the van

If the chef cooks me a meal at home for a fraction of the price of his restaurant and he does it a lot, he should get charging me and others what he does in his restaurant if he is smart and he will if he can. People don't do stuff for free, and if they do as friends then I doubt there skills are as involved as a firm who has the design skills of a bigger player, certainly on things like amps and speakers. But I'd give it some ruidemnetary items might be the same. But we are talking about systems here. Complex hi fi you can't make in a shed. Friends don't design speakers that take huge costs to implement in the confines of a commercial market. If I gave a friend the opportunity to design a pc and op system, it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as Apple or Microsoft. He or she don't have the budgets.

[Marco]

Yes but arkless don't have the development budget to produce the same quality I'd doubt, relative of say of a naim or arcam etc, the staff, The bigger premises, the hr and health and safety costs etc.

Simon, no offence intended, but you're a dealer's wet dream and simply asking to be fleeced! :lol:

Sadly, you've been completely brainwashed by the whole concept of how retail hi-fi works. That is also painfully obvious from the contents of your last post, so I'll bow out now and leave you to it.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

I'll let Jez answer that :eyebrows: but you are really way off beam as to how it all actually goes down.

I'll just say I own at least double the test gear etc that Musical Fidelity and Alchemist Products (for whom I was Chief Engineer) had between them.... And that it's very often someone like myself, with their own facilities and a one man band, who actually does all the design work at circuit level on lots of big name equipment.
I was once " head-hunted" by a specialist technical recruitment agency on behalf of a well known Salisbury based manufacturer.... How I laughed:D

[Dynamics]

Not really I dont think and you can think they fleece me but all that matters to me is the hi fi is worth its value to me. I don't need to buy the greasy burger to know the gourmet one will be better. The chef who has designed the flavours, that's maybe taking it too far for a burger, but you know what I mean.

What do you reckon on what we compare amp wise with mine. Anyone in Sussex want to get involved.

[Arkless Electronics]

Simon, no offence intended, but you're a dealer's wet dream and simply asking to be fleeced! :lol:

Sadly, you've been completely brainwashed by the whole concept of how retail hi-fi works. That is also painfully obvious from the contents of your last post, so I'll bow out now and leave you to it.

Marco.

His lack of understanding of how the whole industry works, how products are designed and by whom, the relationship between manufacturers and the magazines... I could go on at length but I think I'll join you on bowing out of this one while I'm feeling calm :):eyebrows:

[Macca]

. But we are talking about systems here. Complex hi fi you can't make in a shed. Friends don't design speakers that take huge costs to implement in the confines of a commercial market. If I gave a friend the opportunity to design a pc and op system, it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as Apple or Microsoft. He or she don't have the budgets.

Yes you can very much make it in a shed. You can get speaker designs for nothing on the internet, Amplifier circuits also. You don't need an R&D department and a million pound budget. Most of the R&D in hifi is spent trying work out how to do the same thing for less money.

[struth]

I'll just say I own at least double the test gear etc that Musical Fidelity and Alchemist Products (for whom I was Chief Engineer) had between them.... And that it's very often someone like myself, with their own facilities and a one man band, who actually does all the design work at circuit level on lots of big name equipment.
I was once " head-hunted" by a specialist technical recruitment agency on behalf of a well known Salisbury based manufacturer.... How I laughed:D


Naim names then ;) or was it Maplins:lol:

[struth]

Yes you can very much make it in a shed. You can get speaker designs for nothing on the internet, Amplifier circuits also. You don't need an R&D department and a million pound budget. Most of the R&D in hifi is spent trying work out how to do the same thing for less money.

made all mine in the shed. some say with the shed :eyebrows:

[walpurgis]

I'm sure I'd spot a calculated wind up if I saw one.

[Marco]

I don't need to buy the greasy burger to know the gourmet one will be better.

Not if one gets to enjoy a gourmet burger for the price of a "greasy" one (to you use your terminology) - and for some of us, that's an everyday occurrence! And I'm more than willing to 'educate' you on that concept at any time of your choosing.

Kirk out ;)

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Doesn't exist Marco and isn't real world. You'd charge more if it was a better burger as people would pay it relative to competition. Remember economic principles to of competitive markets, also price elasticity of demand.

[Macca]

Simon is far from the only person with this outlook. Read other forums and there are lots of enthusiasts out there who have not stepped through the looking glass. I suspect most of the non-technical amongst us us were there at one point. I know I was. There is the picture painted by sales and marketing, and the hi-fi press and some forums - and then there is the reality of it.

[Dynamics]

Yes you can very much make it in a shed. You can get speaker designs for nothing on the internet, Amplifier circuits also. You don't need an R&D department and a million pound budget. Most of the R&D in hifi is spent trying work out how to do the same thing for less money.


You can but you are missing the point martin, is it better sound without a r and d budget, design team, economies of scale of purchasing for best components . I doubt what you say in your last sentence, what if they are redesigning the whole thing as they often do.

[Dynamics]

Simon is far from the only person with this outlook. Read other forums and there are lots of enthusiasts out there who have not stepped through the looking glass. I suspect most of the non-technical amongst us us were there at one point. I know I was. There is the picture painted by sales and marketing, and the hi-fi press and some forums - and then there is the reality of it.

But not the wrong outlook as far as I'm concerned. Maybe we could do a survey.

[Macca]

You can but you are missing the point martin, is it better sound without a r and d budget, design team, economies of scale of purchasing for best components . I doubt what you say in your last sentence, what if they are redesigning the whole thing as they often do.

They will re-design it to make it cheaper to build, or because an oem part gets discontinued. It isn't often the Mk2 is better than the original, it is often worse. There's no advantage to them to improve it, if you want a better amp they will sell you the next one up in the range. That leads us to the ultimate money-maker: The brand's upgrade path.

[hermit]

https://media.licdn.com/mpr/mpr/AAEAAQAAAAAAAAIsAAAAJDUyN2NkNWExLTY4ZDEtNGI2OS05Nj lkLTQ0NTZiZTI0N2ExZg.jpg

[farflungstar]

Everything I own except the ANe's and cables are handmade. To me there is no other choice. I want to know the creators hands built it, tested it and listened to it. But that's just me.

[Simon_LDT]

This thread is gold... :lol:

[Arkless Electronics]

[/B]


Naim names then ;) or was it Maplins:lol:

Funnily enough when I asked who this potential employer was I was told that it was confidential... a moment later they said I would need to move to the Salisbury area... "so it's Naim then?" says I... "erm... ah.. well.. erm.. yes" came the reply :lol:

[Arkless Electronics]

This thread is gold... :lol:

It's got to be a wind up I'm starting to think.... :lol:

[Dynamics]

They will re-design it to make it cheaper to build, or because an oem part gets discontinued. It isn't often the Mk2 is better than the original, it is often worse. There's no advantage to them to improve it, if you want a better amp they will sell you the next one up in the range. That leads us to the ultimate money-maker: The brand's upgrade path.

Of course there is an advantage to improve. They operate in a competitive market, if another brand comes along and beats them on sq at the price, they have to get there stuff together to sell the item at the same price.

They sell the one up the range because people demand it, it's what's driving them making it, otherwise why bother. Can you think of any consumer products that don't allow you to upgrade in one form or another, especially in tv or hi fi. From one product to another.

[hermit]

It's got to be a wind up I'm starting to think.... :lol:

It's not.


This thread is gold... :lol:

You're not wrong. This is a very polite forum.

[Dynamics]

It's got to be a wind up I'm starting to think.... :lol:

Maybe you could tempt me to buy one of yours instead?

[walpurgis]

It's got to be a wind up I'm starting to think.... :lol:

Thought that for a while.

[Macca]

Of course there is an advantage to improve. They operate in a competitive market, if another brand comes along and beats them on sq at the price, they have to get there stuff together to sell the item at the same price.

They sell the one up the range because people demand it, it's what's driving them making it, otherwise why bother. Can you think of any consumer products that don't allow you to upgrade in one form or another, especially in tv or hi fi. From one product to another.

And who say it beats them at the price? The hi-fi press? They are on the inside of the industry looking out. They may not be corrupt like some claim but they are still influenced by the personal relationships they inevitably develop in the course of the job.

Hi-fi is a luxury goods market, in luxury goods you have to create demand for your product, it doesn't come along by itself unless you are the only game in town. And in the hi-fi business there are thousands of games in town.

[Joe]

I'm more a 'stumbling round blindly, hoping for the best' type than a 'relentless, unending search for perfection' type, but one interesting point arising from this thread is 'how do you judge which system is best, regardless of price?' You'd need to test 'blind', ie without knowing what you were listening to, or how much it cost, for it to be a fair test, and yet blind testing seems to be anathema to many on the subjectivist side of the fence.

[walpurgis]

blind testing seems to be anathema to many on the subjectivist side of the fence.

Whilst I would be happy to participate in 'blind testing', I find it unnecessary in making choices of equipment. My ears tell me the differences in sound produced by items of equipment without my needing to be blinded to use my faculties.

[Macca]

I'm more a 'stumbling round blindly, hoping for the best' type than a 'relentless, unending search for perfection' type, but one interesting point arising from this thread is 'how do you judge which system is best, regardless of price?' You'd need to test 'blind', ie without knowing what you were listening to, or how much it cost, for it to be a fair test, and yet blind testing seems to be anathema to many on the subjectivist side of the fence.

Some do claim that the unnatural situation makes it harder to hear differences when you change a component or a cable/lead. The criticism seems mainly to involve the 'test' side of it rather than the fact that it is blind - fatigue sets in, stress from the fact that your being tested means you can't relax and so on.

Not relevant through if you are just comparing two systems. If you play someone two different systems, unless they sound identical they are going to express an overall preference for one of them. Doing the test blind won't change that but it will remove any unconscious bias re the equipment being used - brand loyalty, aesthetic appearance, price etc.

[IHP]

Back to the question, it is of course very difficult to provide a definitive answer but we do have a Mr. Glenn Croft and a Mr Alan Shaw. I'd also wish to throw Quad in the mix, now I know this brand is not British as such anymore but Huntingdon will repair or service any product they have made in what, 60 years ? This must be a rare thing if not unique. The word heritage comes to mind as something that might be taken into account in considering an answer. And bling, in the negative sense, we don't like bling !

My local butcher makes amazing burgers too ! ;-)

[Marco]

Doesn't exist Marco and isn't real world.

Course it does. My system is full of such 'burgers', and I 'eat' them everyday! :ner:

Marco.

[Joe]

Whilst I would be happy to participate in 'blind testing', I find it unnecessary in making choices of equipment. My ears tell me the differences in sound produced by items of equipment without my needing to be blinded to use my faculties.

They don't actually put out your eyes or blindfold you, you know.

[Joe]

Some do claim that the unnatural situation makes it harder to hear differences when you change a component or a cable/lead. The criticism seems mainly to involve the 'test' side of it rather than the fact that it is blind - fatigue sets in, stress from the fact that your being tested means you can't relax and so on.

Not relevant through if you are just comparing two systems. If you play someone two different systems, unless they sound identical they are going to express an overall preference for one of them. Doing the test blind won't change that but it will remove any unconscious bias re the equipment being used - brand loyalty, aesthetic appearance, price etc.

Indeed. However, I'm sceptical about the value of comparing whole systems anyway, as there are far too many variables involved. Should system A be entirely different from system B, or should the comparison be between otherwise identical systems with one component changed, and if so, which component?

We come back to my original question; how does one define 'best', and who gets to make the judgement? Surely from a subjectivist point of view, if a system is the best you personally have heard, then it is the best.

[Macca]

Indeed. However, I'm sceptical about the value of comparing whole systems anyway, as there are far too many variables involved. Should system A be entirely different from system B, or should the comparison be between otherwise identical systems with one component changed, and if so, which component?

We come back to my original question; how does one define 'best', and who gets to make the judgement? Surely from a subjectivist point of view, if a system is the best you personally have heard, then it is the best.

I agree that 'best' is going to vary between individuals. But for the 'bet your house' challenge you would need to establish a method of deciding. Say 10 people listen and then you have a secret ballot. System with most votes is declared 'best'.

[Marco]

They don't actually put out your eyes or blindfold you, you know.

Only if you don't pay the bar bill. I believe that electric probes are also used in certain cases.

Marco.

[Joe]

I agree that 'best' is going to vary between individuals. But for the 'bet your house' challenge you would need to establish a method of deciding. Say 10 people listen and then you have a secret ballot. System with most votes is declared 'best'.

Sounds fair. Plus, house keys on the table so there's no chance of the loser welshing on his bet.

[Marco]

Surely from a subjectivist point of view, if a system is the best you personally have heard, then it is the best.

Absolutely, so of course in that respect, "best" is *always* subjective.

At bake-offs and shows, however, it's easy to establish a consensus of what's considered as such by those who are present, and so your "best" can also often become other people's "best" too, which of course adds weight to the subjective nature of the 'bestness'.

This has happened umpteen times to me when, say, I've demo'd my whole system at Scalford, and been complimented on its sound both by other exhibitors and members of the general public attending the show, or at NEBO, where I've demo'd, say, my turntable and phono stage, and everyone in the room has been in raptures with it. Macca will remember this, as he was there.

That is why, in the context of the systems and equipment I've compared it to, some of which has been vastly more expensive, I *know* just how good my gear is in comparison, and in terms of that last bit, proves to both my ears and those of others who agree, it's capabilities against stuff that's more expensive, and thus in turn that more expensive DOES NOT automatically equate to better, and so you don't always 'get what you pay for', in terms of out-and-out sonic performance.

In that respect, Simon can argue differently until he's blue in the face, but the fact is I have the experience to back up my claims. All that needs to happen, for him to change his mind, is to hear what I've heard, in that respect, which I'm more than willing to help him with, anytime and anywhere he likes :cool:

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Absolutely, so of course in that respect, "best" is *always* subjective.

At bake-offs and shows, however, it's easy to establish a consensus of what's considered as such by those who are present, and so your "best" can also often become other people's "best" too, which of course adds weight to the subjective nature of the 'bestness'.

This has happened umpteen times to me when, say, I've demo'd my whole system at Scalford, and been complimented on its sound both by other exhibitors and members of the general public attending the show, or at NEBO, where I've demo'd, say, my turntable and phono stage, and everyone in the room has been in raptures with it. Macca will remember this, as he was there.

That is why, in the context of the systems and equipment I've compared it to, some of which has been vastly more expensive, I *know* just how good my gear is in comparison, and in terms of that last bit, proves to both my ears and those of others who agree, how good it is against stuff that's more expensive, and thus in turn that more expensive DOES NOT automatically equate to better, and so you don't always 'get what you pay for', in terms of out-and-out sonic performance.

In that respect, Simon can argue differently until he's blue in the face, but the fact is I have the experience to back up my claims. All that needs to happen, for him to change his mind, is to hear what I've heard, in that respect, which I'm more than willing to do, anytime and anywhere he wishes :cool:

Marco.

But I doubt you are Marco because are you, if comparing say some home made speakers, comparing them to speakers more expensive. It not just one type of item, but you do it for amps or CD players too, and also across budgets for these items and devices at different price brackets. So you might compare £1000 home made speakers with £5000 commercial speakers of a similar floor stand type.

You can ask the question is a speaker better without it being subjective and a personal preference. Because what you are doing is, if one person is saying this speaker is better than another commercial type, is to introduce more error, because the decisions about what's best are not based on absolutes. but are subjective.

What I'd do (if I had the time or inclination) is take an iPod dock and my pmc's driven with my system and I'd ask questions around dynamics and clarity, and ask it to be quantified. You'd score dynamics 1-10 and describe what each element is from 1-10 so the person can choose. You'd do the same with detail and other variables. Then you'd score it with lots of other people and a decent cohort. Then you'd do another test after that with one of the best reviewed and considered £1000 speakers against similar £3000 ones, then £1000 speakers v £4000 and £5000 etc. I'd then ask which you'd prefer. The tests would need to be properly blind so you don't know what you are hearing too. I'd relate preference to what they consider best on the rated variables and I'd see if their a relationship to the two across the cohort.

I'd expect there would be a better preference as the price goes up and I'd also expect those people to rate, on the scoring system I mentioned, the more expensive speakers as being better. Then you'd probably need to do it on other speakers to remove error. Quite a study.

And is the consensus the biggest one when the market for a commercial product is bigger by implication. They will be selling more atc speakers say then mr obscures brand x, in a commercial market where the firm advertise the atcs etc. They will be available in more dealers, have distribution channels etc etc.

Nobody really has the experience because it's impossible to do all of this, which you'd need to do before you really had a view. Human nature being as it is, it's very easy to convince yourself a cheaper system is better because ;

- law of dim returns makes it such that a £10k hi fi is not 10 times better than a £1k one, making someone think the £1k is just as good and relating the money aspect in ones judgements about what is best. My system is better because spending 10k more only gets a relatively marginal improvement. I've seen this in so many people who own hi fi it's unbelievable. I'd say good luck to the person who wants to spend 100k and get an extra 10 percent, if that's what they want to spend their money on and have the money.

- this leads us into these people being considered idiots. You said I'd be fleeced.

- ones preference for a hi fi at your price point. So listening to a more expensive system which is likely to have more scale, or clarity, which might be different from the norm and not to taste. I could say I don't like that sound because is has too much bass. But remember the original question of best is what is faithfully reproduced the better, so you have to say a system which has huge scale is better. Remember an objective hypothesis test of what is best. So no doubt you'd need a huge basement and huge speakers like the pmc owners system. No doubt this will cost.

- people don't really have experience as they buy what they are used to, and at that price point, and if you take a view that cheaper is better to the exclusion of all else, you won't by necessity ever buy more expensive hi fi, because you won't know what it's like. I believe really these people have never heard commercial offerings when making their decisions of what is best, or don't go in the search of them when buying cheaper products. Why would they? Of course not, it's not in their budget. But I've heard cheaper hi fi and owned cheaper hi fi, albeit commercial hi fi, and it's much lesser performing. I'd also go back to my burger argument about what is possible, issues around economics of market prices etc.

- bias due to 'my system pisses on others' . There is so much snobbery in hi fi it beggars belief for me. You probably have no idea if you went to a dealer and listened to a system two or three times the value of yours, whether it would or wouldn't think it could piss on yours. The reason. You don't know that shop system. For there will be one somewhere. Isn't it better to think my system is bloody good, but not the best, and it may or may not piss on other systems at the same price. Which leads to this point I've already stated ;

- the inability to actually put together a system that is empirically the best or the best for your preference. Let's say you set your system up and then change items, and get to a system you are really happy with. Most are in this boat of changing and then getting to a good system. They will tend to keep this for a bit but they may keep updating. But the point is, there is infinite amounts of hi fi and you'd never listen to one. Let me transpose you to a different country and 10 years back, with hi fi of a different make common to the country, you may or may not have a system better than that in the uk, if you could glass ball the future. So the point is hi fi is always a compromise based on experiences and what you come across, which is often down to luck, and you can't review and listen to everything because you can't go to every dealer.

This seems to me common sense, and it's why beyond a point and once a system is built, I don't understand a never ending desire to tweak this or that, unless something comes along and does something much better.

[Marco]

Bloody hell, you do like to waffle on and on [and on], don't you? :doh:

Just gracefully accept the point I was making in my last post Simon, and be done with it, as it's perfectly fair. What I'm stating is of course only applicable in the context I'm referring to, but nevertheless it shows that spending more doesn't always guarantee better sound.

However, that's not to say that in other cases the opposite won't apply. It's THAT simple. End of story, case closed, done and dusted - let's all go to the pub! :cool:

Marco.

[Dynamics]

Bloody hell, you do like to waffle on and on, don't you? :doh:

Just gracefully accept the point I was making in my last post Simon, and be done with it, as it's perfectly fair. What I'm stating is of course only applicable in the context I'm referring to, but nevertheless it shows that spending more doesn't always guarantee better sound.

However, that's not to say that in other cases the opposite won't apply. End of story, case closed, done and dusted :cool:

Marco.

That's fine with me if you don't want to discuss further, I'd have liked to continue to debate though. I'd believe I'm winning the argument with those points. I've thought about it a lot and it's common sense. Doesn't always was not what was argued I don't think. It was being fleeced if you spend a lot because cheaper home made is just as good.

[doodoos]

I don't know which country has the best Hi-Fi industry but I doubt it's here. Judging by the quality of the audio shows and general disinterest of some manufacturers to the public it's not surprising.
A number of foreign companies don't bother with the UK which is perceived as populated by less than enthusiastic punters always after a bargain or quality on the cheap.

[Marco]

That's fine with me if you don't want to discuss further, I'd have liked to continue to debate though. I'd believe I'm winning the argument with those points.

You're not winning anything, FFS. Is that's what this is about to you - winning arguments?? This isn't a debating society, Simon. It's an on-line community, where we have friendly, informal chats about hi-fi and music (and other things in the off-topic areas).

All you're doing is pissing folk off, not just me, driving them to distraction and spoiling their enjoyment of the forum, with your anal and seemingly insatiable desire to 'win' debates. Witness the fact that two people (to my knowledge) have put you on their ignore list, in the short time you've been here! :rolleyes:

I'll be quite frank with you, it's becoming patently obvious why you've had problems on other forums, as you'd try the patience of a saint, so either change your attitude or find another forum to post on, as others and I have now had enough.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

You're not winning anything, FFS. Is that's what this is about to you - winning arguments? This isn't a debating society, Simon. It's an on-line community, where we have friendly, informal chats about hi-fi and music (and other things in the off-topic areas).

All you're doing is pissing folk off, not just me, and spoiling their enjoyment of the forum, with your anal and never-ending desire to argue and 'win' debates. Witness the fact that two people (to my knowledge) have put you on their ignore list, in the short time you've been here! :rolleyes:

I'll be quite frank with you, it's becoming patently obvious why you've had problems on other forums, as you'd try the patience of a saint, so either change your attitude or find another forum to post on, as others and I have now had enough.

Marco.

:clapclapclap: He's going to need a fresh shovel before long anyway and I don't think the ladders extend that far down....

[Dynamics]

You're not winning anything, FFS. Is that's what this is about to you - winning arguments? This isn't a debating society, Simon. It's an on-line community, where we have friendly, informal chats about hi-fi and music (and other things in the off-topic areas).

All you're doing is pissing folk off, not just me, and spoiling their enjoyment of the forum, with your anal and never-ending desire to argue and 'win' debates. Witness the fact that two people (to my knowledge) have put you on their ignore list, in the short time you've been here! :rolleyes:

I'll be quite frank with you, it's becoming patently obvious why you've had problems on other forums, as you'd try the patience of a saint, so either change your attitude or find another forum to post on, as others and I have now had enough.

Marco.


You are a moral arbitor and continuing in the debates,which you've been happy to involve yourself in and that's all I'm doing. Don't get upset about it, if you are getting involved in a debate yourself, which is all it is. I have nothing personal to gain. You are pissing yourself off, as if you didn't want to debate you'd not post. And I'd have nobody to 'win' with as you put it. That's simple isn't it. And if your intention is to put people down and call them anal, then that's not nice.

And now you've pissed me off because you called me anal, but I guess that's your prerogative. I'm not trying to win arguments. Don't get aggressive about it. I'm interested in a debate, as you were. Otherwise you wouldn't continue. You are just upset I'd made points which you don't agree with.

[hermit]

http://www.foxvalleysafety.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Bury-your-Head-in-the-sand_new.jpg

[Marco]

You are a moral arbitor and continuing in the debates,which you've been happy to involve yourself in and that's all I'm doing. Don't get upset about it, if you are getting involved in a debate yourself, which is all it is. I have nothing personal to gain. You are pissing yourself off, as if you didn't want to debate you'd not post.

The problem is, you don't know when to shut up, back down and simply 'agree to disagree', but instead choose to go ON AND ON AND ON AND ON [then on some more], until you piss people off..:rolleyes:

I'm afraid that shows a complete lack of self-awareness, which is a rather unpleasant trait, not to mention one that's very annoying and liable to get you into trouble.

You won't 'agree to disagree', to avoid a circular argument, when it's clear that neither you or the person you're debating with are going to form a consensus, because (as is patently obvious by what you've written and the language you've used, such as 'shooting down', etc) for you it's all about 'winning' an argument, and I'm afraid if that's what you're about, then AoS isn't the forum for it.

I apologise for calling you anal, but as I've said, you'd try the patience of a saint. Anyway, you can have a little holiday for a week, during which time you can have a good think about whether you're going to try and fit in here or not, as in the meantime I can't be doing with the grief of having to manage you.

Marco.