View Full Version : Rebadging goes platinum !
Have a look at this:
http://audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1
I'm speechless... :doh:
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 11:16
Have a look at this:
http://audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1
I'm speechless... :doh:
If it were the drive and control section from an Oppo fair enough, with Lexicon audio/video processing etc, but to transplant an Oppo into a nice case alone is imho a crime.
This is very bad on Lexicons part and I suspect, (but don't have proof bar the review) the reasons given in the review are bang on the money.
Regards D S D L
hifi_dave
18-01-2010, 11:57
Relatively small companies like Lexicon haven't got the wherewithall to produce their own DVD, Blueray or even CD transports and have to rely on buying in parts from the 'big boys' who do. If they attempt to make their own it ends up costing tens of millions and they end up like Proceed..:doh:
What usually happens though, is that these companies take parts and assemblies to build their own machines - not the whole bl**dy thing and bolt it in a box...:eek:
Utterly disgraceful - that sort of shit makes my blood boil. In my view, any company caught doing that should receive a massive fine and if caught at it again, their business shut down completely!!
Sadly this blatant, immoral, profiteering by companies devoid of conscience happens more than you might think. For me, anyone guilty of such (disgracefully) dishonest trading practice, when found out, deserves to go bust. And I would laugh out loud when it happened! ;)
Marco.
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 10:18
Not exactly high SPPV, is it?
Not exactly high SPPV, is it?
Not all, even. :steam:
Still worse : this puts a gun in the hands of some people who don't like the "hi-end" hifi industry by giving them an example to use. It doesn't serve the industry and destroys the faith into genuine engineering. It's really a knife on the back of all the hard-working talented engineers... :(
Like Marco, this makes my blood boil...
The Vinyl Adventure
19-01-2010, 12:29
It's the thx thing that bugs me, that's an even bigger thing to be called in to question! I hav always suspected that there must be players on the Market that would meet the criteria but don't want to pay the licence for the little gold badge, but in reality it could mean that there are loads of bits of kit of almost any brand that might have bought a badge that don't meet the thx critiria. Which in turn means there could be a hell of a lot of consumers out there who have just bought an expensive gold badge...
Spectral Morn
19-01-2010, 13:00
It's the thx thing that bugs me, that's an even bigger thing to be called in to question! I hav always suspected that there must be players on the Market that would meet the criteria but don't want to pay the licence for the little gold badge, but in reality it could mean that there are loads of bits of kit of almost any brand that might have bought a badge that don't meet the thx critiria. Which in turn means there could be a hell of a lot of consumers out there who have just bought an expensive gold badge...
I agree in part however the idea behind THX is a good one and goes some way to allowing one to assemble an AV set up which will be fully compatible. THX short for Thomas Holman Experiment is a set of measurement parameters which was established at the request of George Lucas. He was unhappy at the sound of his movies in some movie houses so came up with a specification which meant if a movie house had THX gear his movies would sound at their best.
The American market took to it big time and it does at least mean that movie soundtracks, both music and sound effects etc have a very high standard of sound reproduction. It then became the thing to have when AV products came in. Is it free to have/use etc ? NO, there is a substantial fee to use the spec/technology (its more than just a badge).
However THX is not the only fee electronics companies have to pay...there are many including such CE Certification etc.
I think the good news is the significance of this discovery will only effect the AV market not the 2 channel market imho. It is quite common in AV for this sort of thing to happen especially with OEM production in China which then gets a badge..Wharfedale and the like. Imho its less common in audio, mainly as audio is no longer a big money maker...but it once was more common in audio....
In the early days of CD many companies took player and tweaked them...Modsquad, Calafornia Audio Labs, Micro Seiki, Micromega, Deltec, Woodside/Radford, Marantz, Meridian etc. Sony and Philips did not want to sell/supply their laser mechanisms cheaply...so many UK and Boutique companies bought whole players and re-cased and placed their electronics in them. Was this a bad thing ? At the time no, because they had no choice. Musical Fidelity started with Dacs as did Arcam because to build their own CDPs at the time was way to hard and dear. Eventually that changed.
For myself if you want to use the CD/DVD drive and control electronics thats fine...then you put your own electronics in it. However to just re-case thats a crime.
Regards D S D L
The Vinyl Adventure
19-01-2010, 13:16
But that article says that neither player meet thx standards, but the more expensive one has the badge... That means that it is just a badge you are paying the extrA $3000 for... If that ha happend with this obvious farce of a player, it could well have happend with players that are less obviously a rip off!
Spectral Morn
19-01-2010, 13:30
But that article says that neither player meet thx standards, but the more expensive one has the badge... That means that it is just a badge you are paying the extrA $3000 for... If that ha happend with this obvious farce of a player, it could well have happend with players that are less obviously a rip off!
On the face of it (whats written in the review) that seems correct. However my understanding is that any product that has the THX logo on it must meet THX specs. So the qestion is does it or not ? I don't know.
Anyone fancy contacting the UK distributor of Lexicon (CSE) and asking ?
Regards D S D L
Anyone fancy contacting the UK distributor of Lexicon (CSE) and asking ?Put a bulletproof vest, you never know... :lol:
Didn't Jadis -*wasn't Jadis - see below* do this a year or two back, adding a huge amount for no more than a case...
At least Audiocom try to further improve the Oppo machine...
Anyone fancy contacting the UK distributor of Lexicon (CSE) and asking ?
I know what I'd like to 'contact' him with!! ;)
Marco.
technobear
19-01-2010, 21:59
Didn't Jadis do this a year or two back, adding a huge amount for no more than a case...
I don't know about Jadis, but Goldmund were certainly caught with their pants down over some Pioneer internals in a bling box at a very high price.
Pioneer - that was the one.... Cheers, Chris!
If I remember correctly, it wasn't just some "Pioneer internals". Interally, comparing the Pioneer and the Goldmund, it was a veritable game of spot the difference!!
Marco.
I don't know about Jadis, but Goldmund were certainly caught with their pants down over some Pioneer internals in a bling box at a very high price.
Thank you, you're quite correct... I'll amend accordingly..
I can't remember if the rear wiring was altered, or just re-dressed to accomodate the deeper rear panel, but it was a blatant rip-off..
... which also proves that Pioneer can design some bits properly. ;)
Gosh, yes, of course they can - they have the technical and engineering wherewithal to make pretty much what they like (same as any other major Japanese company!) ;)
Anyone know who's the biggest and most successful between 'the big four': Sony, Denon, Matsushita Electric (National Panasonic/Technics) and Pioneer?
I'd guess Sony.
Marco.
Anyone know who's the biggest and most successful between 'the big four': Sony, Denon, National Panasonic (Technics) and Pioneer?
I'd guess Sony.
Marco.I would vote for Sony, too. Their R&D is impressive. :)
Does Technics (as a name) even exist any more?
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 00:21
Does Technics (as a name) even exist any more?
Only on the Turntables. No new audio/systems (as far as I know) have been brought to the UK/European market in quite a few years. Matashita, decided to concentrate on their Panasoinc marque.
Sad...but Technics are best known for small micro systems these days (bar the DJ TTs), and not quality audio products. This was not always the case as I have been finding out about some Technics and proto-technics (some National Panasonic tuners were part of the early Technics designs) tuners recently.
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
20-01-2010, 00:28
Hmmm, yes once upon a time they managed to turn out some good stuff!
Only on the Turntables. No new audio/systems (as far as I know) have been brought to the UK/European market in quite a few years. Matashita, decided to concentrate on their Panasoinc marque.
Sad...but Technics are best known for small micro systems these days (bar the DJ TTs), and not quality audio products. This was not always the case as I have been finding out about some Technics and proto-technics (some National Panasonic tuners were part of the early Technics designs) tuners recently.
Regards D S D L
Oh yeah, how could I forget about the TURNTABLES! doh! :doh:
Technics did some well respected genuine top end stuff in Japan in the eighties. I don't believe any of it came to Europe though. It seemed that some UK offices of Japanese giants acquired their stock via Germany, so there may be some treasures floating around mainland Europe.
Sony are in dire financial trouble these days. If I were shopping in Akihabara (Tokyo) today, I'd go for Pioneer electronics of all the big four brands as they are technically very competent (they've even made some half decent speakers over the years) and their Elite brand oozes class.
Hi Martin,
I'd probably agree, in terms of audio, but its the sheer (massive and diverse) range of products which Sony make that, as far as I know, the others don't - or at least not to the same degree, which for me makes Sony the biggest electronics manufacturer in the world.
Does anyone have any turnover figures for last year for the 'big four'?
Marco.
P.S Did you get my last PM confirming the re-arranged date for our bake-off? :)
Yes indeed, date in the calendar. Looking forward to it. The Mike New bearing is bedding in nicely and getting better every day :)
Hi Martin,
Does anyone have any turnover figures for last year for the 'big four'?
Marco.
For 2008 Sony turned over $81,173,500,000 (USD)
Matsushita - $21 billion
D&M holdings which is both Denon and Marantz - did $42 million
Pioneer I could only find 2004 figure which is $6.4 Billion
So Sony the biggest by a long margin if talking turnover.
Thanks, Martin - I thought as much. However, that most certainly doesn't mean they're the most successful these days in a hi-fi sense.
Marco.
Interesting article on today's Daily telegraph site about built-in 'kill' chips in Sony products, designed to make them disfunctional soon after the warranty expires. Apparantly this is has been a big rumour in Japan for a while. I'm sceptical myself.
Personally I have always bought Sony specifically for its reliability and longevity - providing the item was actually made in Japan and not from an outsource somewhere else in the far East, my Bravia telly being a good example.
Yup, I agree. I think there's Sony and there's 'Sony', if you see what I mean.
In general, I've usually found their products to be somewhat of a 'step above' that of the other mainstream Japanese giants - definitely not in all instances, though.
Two valid cases in point, however, are our Sony Trinitron (CRT) TV, which we bought in 2000 and is still going strong! We had our last one before that for 15 years!!
I do think that they make exceptional TVs.
And also, of course, there's my vintage Sony CDP and DAC, which have been operating faultlessly since 1989!!
Marco.
Yes the Trinitron series were superb - 15 years is not long for one to last IME - you must have given it a caning!:)
I also like the fact that Sony have never changed their logo; it looks so 'seventies-retro' now in comparison to newer brand logos. Check out the Sony monitors used in 2001-A Space Odyssey - exactly the look I wanted in my home!
Yes the Trinitron series were superb - 15 years is not long for one to last IME - you must have given it a caning!:)
Martin, we didn't change our last Sony because it stopped working - simply because we wanted a more modern one. The old one is still probably going strong in the house of the person we sold it to!
I much prefer Sony Trinitron CRT TVs to any of the modern flat-screen bollocks (unless one is using Blueray or something which capitalises on their higher resolution) - as I find the colours much sharper and more lifelike than those on flat-screens, with ordinary digital TV.
I also like the fact that Sony have never changed their logo; it looks so 'seventies-retro' now in comparison to newer brand logos. Check out the Sony monitors used in 2001-A Space Odyssey - exactly the look I wanted in my home!
Lol - I understand where you're coming from :)
Marco.
Martin, we didn't change our last Sony because it stopped working - simply because we wanted a more modern one. The old one is still probably going strong in the house of the person we sold it to!
I much prefer Sony Trinitron CRT TVs to any of the modern flat-screen bollocks (unless one is using Blueray or something which capitalises on their higher resolution) - as I find the colours much sharper and more lifelike than those on flat-screens, with ordinary digital TV.
Marco.
Ah! That makes sense now! I agree re the superiority of a quality CRT - but if you want a big screen (which I did) there is no realistic CRT option. Mine is a rear-projection LCD and a lot more natural colour-wise than the backlight LEDs so popular now. You can't hang it on the wall like some sort of C.E trophy though...
Not all Sony CRT's were good or all that long lasting. Some of 'em had a very soggy definition when looked at close up and all of them back then seemed to over-run the contrast IMO, which can reduce tube life I found. A knackered Sony Trinitron is NOT a pleasant viewing experience I can tell you. I also found the colours too biased to magenta, although many others are worse and Panasonics (equally as reliable and long lasting) are slightly green tinged.
ONE Sony TV I loved was the one with digital chassis that lasted a year or so in the early noughties. It was the only hi-tech set that could reproduce interference noise properly and the picture was amazing... That, along with SOME B&O models, showed how good CRT can be...
The Vinyl Adventure
23-01-2010, 15:53
i would have thought samsung would be bigger than sony in turnover turms these days....
Ali Tait
23-01-2010, 16:04
I did some work at a Philips plant a few years ago,and they told me B&O bought their CRT's from them.
i would have thought samsung would be bigger than sony in turnover turms these days....
Samsung turned over £18.5 billion for just Q3 2009 - thats GBP - so they are a lot bigger than Sony in terms of turnover - approx $120 billion USD per year
Yes, but do Samsung make any decent hi-fi gear? No. 'The big four' mentioned all make some decent kit, which is why they were mentioned in the first place ;)
Dave,
Not all Sony CRT's were good or all that long lasting. Some of 'em had a very soggy definition when looked at close up and all of them back then seemed to over-run the contrast IMO, which can reduce tube life I found. A knackered Sony Trinitron is NOT a pleasant viewing experience I can tell you.
That's the same as saying a knackered pair of Tannoys (or any knackered speakers) is not a pleasant listening experience; errm, of course not! :scratch:
If your point is that not all Sony CRTs are brilliant, then I would agree - but then one could say the same about any other manufacturer's CRTs or equipment, so I've not got a scooby-doo what the point you're trying to make is...... :mental: :lol:
Marco.
I agreee about Sony Bravia LCD TVs which are very well made and offer superb picture quality. My 40" six year old top of the range is still going strong and looks good with both HD and SD broadcasts.
Beware, though, their laptops (I'm in IT). Poorly made, unreliable bijou crap which are very hard to repair and for which spare parts are very hard to get hold of. I'm constantly telling parents of pupils at my school to avoid them like the plague, but they don't listen because Viaos look so cute. In this case, they would be so much better off with a Samsung.
I took an interest in NEW ones Marco and visited many clients with all sorts of TV's of varying ages.
Sony seem to make or made several tiers of product. At their best they were awsome, but the lower caste models were variable as I recall.
There were B&O tellies and B&O tellies too. the B&O designed (or very heavily modified ones) were excellent IMO and most of them used Philips tubes to excellent effect. They had their clunkers too and most Sony TV fans hated the B&O's as the Sony's had high contrast, whereas B&O put tinted contrast screens to tame the excesses in low domestic lighting.. The worst B&O's used Thompson chassis as I remember (MX5000,3000) and these were washed out, horrid things, not that the customers bothered.......;)
Spectral Morn
23-01-2010, 18:05
For 2008 Sony turned over $81,173,500,000 (USD)
Matsushita - $21 billion
D&M holdings which is both Denon and Marantz - did $42 million
Pioneer I could only find 2004 figure which is $6.4 Billion
So Sony the biggest by a long margin if talking turnover.
Ahhhh..but which is the most profitable. If your costs/out goings are massive, then the smaller companies could % wise be making more profit. No point doing say a million quid and only making 50p when all is said and done.
Big figures are impressive at first glance, but its actual net profit that is more important imho. Are the figures above sales, or actual net profit ?
Regards D S D L
Hi Martin,
Beware, though, their laptops (I'm in IT). Poorly made, unreliable bijou crap which are very hard to repair and for which spare parts are very hard to get hold of. I'm constantly telling parents of pupils at my school to avoid them like the plague, but they don't listen because Viaos look so cute. In this case, they would be so much better off with a Samsung.
I wouldn't for one second dream of questioning your expertise on these matters, but I'm afraid that what you're saying is contrary to my own personal experience.
The Sony Vaio laptop I'm using right now to type this is three years old and, trust me, it gets a lot of use, not least of which is the near 13,500 posts I've managed on here! :eyebrows:
And during that time I've had not one problem with it. It's the exact same with the Vaio my wife uses for her work as a college lecturer.
Therefore, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Sony Vaio when this one eventually goes pop, and Del feels the same way with hers.
Maybe we've just been lucky? :)
Marco.
Dave Hewitt
23-01-2010, 18:17
Hi
If my memory serves me correctly I seem to remember that Samsung did make some high end hifi gear just to prove they could, but I may be wrong.
RegardsDave.
Hi Dave,
Interesting - I presume that most of it would've stayed in Japan? I don't recall any of it being sold here :)
Marco.
Dave - didn't Samsung make a high end 1-bit amplifier of some kind not many years ago?
Marco - YMMV, of course. It could be that different Viaos are made in different factories. What I can tell you is that Sony's support sucks
Dave Hewitt
23-01-2010, 19:06
Hi
I think the 1 bit amp was a Sharp,but agree about being on your own regarding after warranty support from Sony.
Regards Dave.
Ali Tait
23-01-2010, 19:14
NOW you tell us.I just bought my daughter a vaio for Chrimbo! :doh:
Seriously though,I read up quite a bit on the net,and they seemed to be reliable machines?
They're great, Ali - don't let that bad boy Martin tell you anything else! ;)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 19:53
Ahhhh..but which is the most profitable. If your costs/out goings are massive, then the smaller companies could % wise be making more profit. No point doing say a million quid and only making 50p when all is said and done.
Big figures are impressive at first glance, but its actual net profit that is more important imho. Are the figures above sales, or actual net profit ?
Regards D S D L
You're so right, the above figures are turnover. A figure for turnover means nothing without the associated profit figure.
Beware, though, their laptops (I'm in IT). Poorly made, unreliable bijou crap which are very hard to repair and for which spare parts are very hard to get hold of. I'm constantly telling parents of pupils at my school to avoid them like the plague, but they don't listen because Viaos look so cute. In this case, they would be so much better off with a Samsung.
... or an Asus. ;)
Seriously though,I read up quite a bit on the net,and they seemed to be reliable machines?:whistle:
Hi Chris,
You're so right, the above figures are turnover. A figure for turnover means nothing without the associated profit figure.
Net profit is the most important figure from a business P.O.V, of course, but turnover indicates how many product units are being sold by a company, which is an important factor in determining how big they are in a commercial sense :)
Marco.
Hi Dimitri.
... or an Asus. ;)
:whistle:
I've not heard of Asus - are they some peculiar French brand (or perhaps a Chinese brand sold mainly in France)?
I still maintain that Sony Vaio laptops can be excellent - personal experience of using them says so! :)
Marco.
Asus is the n°1 motherboard manufacturer in the world (one computer out of three has an Asus motherboard).
One day they were fed up making (among the best) motherboards for everybody else, they started making notebooks. http://www.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=AboutASUS&Content_Id=9
Sony knows how to make displays. I'm not sure they have anything else in their laptop that they make themselves.
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 21:15
Hi Chris,
Net profit is the most important figure from a business P.O.V, of course, but turnover indicates how many product units are being sold by a company, which is an important factor in determining how big they are in a commercial sense :)
Marco.
Yeah, but selling a record number of units is no good if your overheads aren't sustainable, so turnover figures can only be usefully quoted with the profit figures.
Beechwoods
23-01-2010, 21:18
Just ask Bernard Madoff!
M Madoff is busy at the moment... he will be able to meet you in 40 or 50 years, though. :lolsign:
Yeah, but selling a record number of units is no good if your overheads aren't sustainable, so turnover figures can only be usefully quoted with the profit figures.
Indeed Chris, but turnover figures are still turnover figures :)
There are many aspects involved when judging how big and/or commercially successful a company is. Net profit is not always the bottom line.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
23-01-2010, 21:27
Hi Chris,
Net profit is the most important figure from a business P.O.V, of course, but turnover indicates how many product units are being sold by a company, which is an important factor in determining how big they are in a commercial sense :)
Marco.
True..........but it could still be at an overall operating loss.
I seem to recall hearing that a while ago (before their new CO took over), that only the gaming part of Sony was profitable, the other sections were at best holding their own or losing money. Overall compared to the past Sony was generally thought to be in trouble.
I agree about Sony and reliability and after-sales support to their dealers. Its generally poor. I used to try and avoid selling Sony kit when I worked in the Brown goods trade...if it went wrong getting replacements was a nightmare, especially if it was one of their new hot products. Once we had a guy have to wait 4 months to get a replacement 32in Wega flat screen digital TV..his was faulty more or less out of the box. We just could not get him one....and we were a big Sony dealer. I preferred to sell Toshiba's TVs, as back then...8 years ago they were next to Sony the best...and more reliable. Panasonic came next, then JVC. After that Philips, Sharp, Hitachi and Grundig were crap...both in terms of picture and reliability. I stuck to Toshiba and never had a problem 0 come back and lots of happy customers. However that was 8 years ago...not the same picture today.
Regards D S D L
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 21:49
Indeed Chris, but turnover figures are still turnover figures :)
There are many aspects involved when judging how big and/or commercially successful a company is. Net profit is not always the bottom line.
Marco.
No, but the two together tell you far more of the story.
Spectral Morn
23-01-2010, 21:52
No, but the two together tell you far more of the story.
Agreed...vital.
Lets be honest Marco, if you or I or Chris were going to invest in or buy Sony (or any company/business) you would want all the figures. Otherwise its just hot air....and possibly a dangerous investment fantasy.
Regards D S D L
Yep, guys, I agree. I was simply highlighting that there are many facets invloved in effectively analysing the success and/or commercial viability of any business. I think we're in agreement that it's a 'sum of the parts' thing :)
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
23-01-2010, 23:06
.............. simply highlighting that there are many facets invloved in effectively analysing the success and/or commercial viability of any business............
Marco.
Yeahbut, nobut, yeahbut...........that's what we were doing!!!!!!!!
Asus is the n°1 motherboard manufacturer in the world (one computer out of three has an Asus motherboard).
One day they were fed up making (among the best) motherboards for everybody else, they started making notebooks. http://www.asus.com/ContentPage.aspx?Content_Type=AboutASUS&Content_Id=9
Sony knows how to make displays. I'm not sure they have anything else in their laptop that they make themselves.
I see - thanks for the info. I know next to nothing about computers and so had not heard before of Asus.
You may be right, but I guess all you can do is use a laptop and through experience of using it determine how good it is for you. In that respect, for me, the Vaio is excellent.
Mine gets used for about 12-14 hours a day, which is a mixture between business use and posting on here, and I've been using it that way solid for 3 years - without ONE single problem during that time.
I'm not sure how many other machines would have been as reliable with such heavy usage over a similar amount of time. As Martin says, though: YMMV :)
Marco.
If reliability is the main concern, then the best computers in this respect are the professional ones : Thinkpads, and some HP and Toshiba models. These equip firms with tens of thousands of laptops, where heavy use and moving them often around is a serious issue.
The Vaio is ok, no worries Marco. It gets the job done, I'm sure. :)
And no, I was not talking "for me". When I talk computers, I take into account the user's needs. Call it a "professional twisting", but I can't be subjective about them. :eyebrows:
I have 3 laptops at home, and, because of the different use, they are not of the same manufacturer.
I use Alienware, for instance, you see ? But I usually advice Asus or Dell to people who don't move their laptops enough, because I know nobody (except for one exception, perhaps) who has possibly the use of a (very expensive) Alienware. ;)
Anyway, everybody changes computer every 3-4 years, so...
If reliability is the main concern, then the best computers in this respect are the professional ones : Thinkpads, and some HP and Toshiba models.
In fact, I purchase Lenovo (Thinkpad) laptops exclusively for staff. We have a population of about 70 of them now. Very nice machines - fast, reliable, tough (just look at the hinges) and easily repaired if necessary.
Hi Martin,
Got any links to where one can buy these Lenovo Thinkpads? I'll bear them in mind to replace the Vaio when it goes tits up :)
Marco.
I think we must have a bit more than 100,000 Thinkpads. They need to be reliable. ;)
I buy them from Insight. Warning, the model range is confusing but they're all good value at their different price points:
http://uk.insight.com/apps/nbs/index.php?C=102&S=1015&lang=en-gb&K=&M=LEN
The G550 are outstanding value for money, the T and X series are the dog's danglies.
Hi Martin,
Got any links to where one can buy these Lenovo Thinkpads? I'll bear them in mind to replace the Vaio when it goes tits up :)
Marco.http://www.lenovo.com/uk/en/index.html
(but perhaps you mean shops ?)
I think we must have a bit more than 100,000 Thinkpads.
Who do you work for, Dimitri?
IBM, at the moment. ;)
Aha! I wonder if IBM regret selling their laptop division to Lenovo?
Cheers, guys :)
I have no desire to own a 'boutique-style' laptop, but when you don't know any better, those are the sorts of things the shops promote. I'd never heard of Lenovo until now. The idea of a 'sturdy no-frills workhorse' laptop, that's 'got it where it counts under the hood', appeals to my sensibilities - much the same as it does with hi-fi equipment ;)
Marco.
Aha! I wonder if IBM regret selling their laptop division to Lenovo?
Well, I 've been working for them only for the last 3 years. But I think they are no longer organized for selling laptops (or desktop) computers. The "Corp" is organized around services and software at the moment.
No, I don't think they regret it, because they would have closed down if they continued as they did. Business is complicated, as you know, in the moving IT sector, and big companies are easy targets.
Cheers, guys :)
I have no desire to own a 'boutique-style' laptop, but when you don't know any better, those are the sorts of things the shops promote. I'd never heard of Lenovo until now. The idea of a 'sturdy no-frills workhorse' laptop, that's 'got it where it counts under the hood', appeals to my sensibilities - much the same as it does with hi-fi equipment ;)
Marco.
In France you have some "normal public" (some online) shops selling Lenovos. You should be able to find that in the UK, I guess.
Yes, Thinkpads are sort of "tanks" : chassis carbon fiber protection, HD shock protection... My (old) Thinkpad fell twice from a table without problems. ;)
I run a cast-off RM NB3000 (Amilo EL with AMD rather than Pentium M) with max memory and Athlon XP-M 2400+, which is antique by modern standards.
It's very frail in my hands though and when the next batch of ex-school laptops get de-commissioned and replaced, I wouldn't mind cadging an RM Mobile 1, which has an almost student-proof brick-out-house build..
Hi Martin,
I wouldn't for one second dream of questioning your expertise on these matters, but I'm afraid that what you're saying is contrary to my own personal experience.
The Sony Vaio laptop I'm using right now to type this is three years old and, trust me, it gets a lot of use, not least of which is the near 13,500 posts I've managed on here! :eyebrows:
And during that time I've had not one problem with it. It's the exact same with the Vaio my wife uses for her work as a college lecturer.
Therefore, I wouldn't hesitate to buy another Sony Vaio when this one eventually goes pop, and Del feels the same way with hers.
Maybe we've just been lucky? :)
Marco.
So which laptop went wrong that you referred to in this post (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=74517&postcount=68) - or was that a little fib to get out of the Whittlebury Hall write up? ;)
I'm not disagreeing with you on the Vaio though - mine has been great, touch wood...
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 01:16
I to have a Sony vaio .. Great big thing with a huge display! It's only failed me once in the 2 years I have now had it, it's on all day every day and is used as my music server an work computer. I bought it for the display, it doesn't alter it's contrast when it's veiwed from any angle so at first look seemed good for photo work! As it turns out, it's actually pretty shit for photo work so I had to buy a dedicated eizo photo display. The battery life is aweful too, I'm not exagerating when i say it lasts less than a minute when it's not plugged in!
As I said, I bought it for the display and as such had to buy a laptop from a shop where I could actually veiw the dispaly as aposed to buying one of the Internet...
If I was to buy a laptop in the future it would be a lenovo, everyone I know who knows much about computers says lenovo are the way to go - great value and very reliable!
You want a shit laptop, buy a advent, I have had my little advent for a year now. I use it for browsing the internet and for controling the hifi with the shit linn software.. Nothing else... It has been back to pcwankers for a repair o a broken hdd and sd slot... They didn't fix the sd slot. Since then it has needed formating twice after it just decided to stop running windows.... Shite!!
Hi Alex,
So which laptop went wrong that you referred to in this post (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=74517&postcount=68) - or was that a little fib to get out of the Whittlebury Hall write up?
Lol - nah, I lifted it up off the floor by the screen whilst I was sitting in the chair and it put a big crack in the screen - entirely self-inflicted damage! :doh:
Then I had to wait nearly 8 WEEKS (during which time it was away) for a f*ckwit computer engineer to source a new screen and fit it....... :rolleyes:
I'm not disagreeing with you on the Vaio though - mine has been great, touch wood...
As has mine, but when it goes 'ta-ta bella', I'll be getting a Lenovo :)
Marco.
You want a shit laptop, buy a advent
Which Advent, Hamish? PC Whirled don't make their own machines, they rebadge others. I have a little Advent 4211 netbook which is really an MSI Wind and it's a brilliant ultra-portable for when I don't want to lug the big lappy around. I've upgraded its battery and RAM and put Windows 7 on it and it goes very well indeed, with 6 hours battery life.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 11:10
I have the 4213, bought as the model up from the 4211... Was that a mistake...
(despite my previous comment slating advent as a whole, I suspect I just have a crap one, I don't belive in slating companys on the personal experience of one bad unit.. I have had crap tasteing chicken... It doesn't mean they all taste crap!.... Pcwankers are still shit though ...)
Ah - I believe the 4213 is not at all related to the 4211 and was made by a different manufacturer.
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 11:54
Balls!!... I had actually decided to go for the 4211... But the bloody pcwanker up sold me to the 4213.
Do you know that now makes every single bit of advice I have had from pc world legitimately shit!
I went in one day looking for an external hdd, read all the stuff on the boxes on display I worked out that there were 2 that fitted my spec... 1tb and high rpm.. I knew nothing else about them to help me decide and as they were £30 apart, I asked a pcwanker for some help.... He just picked up the boxes and started reading the side, after a lot longer than it takes to read the side of the 2 boxes he decided he too didn't know. I said could it be down to product quality, was one of them a reputable brand, or did one contain a hdd of a repuatable brand... His reply was "I don't really know much about hard drives mate" and then sorta just hovered nearby for a few minutes then sorta shuffled off!
The Vinyl Adventure
25-01-2010, 12:12
I won't go too much off on a tangent here but some of the storys (from the staff of our local high street curry's that we have got to know) about the levels of training they have at dsg stores... It makes you worry! This places just add to the demise of high street shopping, people go to the high street over the Internet because they want product advice... I am told that Currys staff are more highly trained in the sales of finance deals than the products them selves...
Have I ever babbled on this forum about the time one of the chaps from Currys told me about the panasonic free 5 year waranty cover up?
Panasonic were giving away free 5 year warantys in the boxes of the tv's... We advertised this in the shop... It's a selling point after all... Currys staff were told by head office not to tell the customer unless the customer showed they had prior knowledge. They were told to continue to sell Currys warantys. As I understand it Currys warantys do have the advantage of accidental damage cover, fair enough the Currys one is therefore better. But aparently Currys told the staff that "if the customer know about the free waranty they wouldn't buy the Currys one... So don't tell them!" I personnaly find that sort of behaviour discracful from a company that is suposed to be the leading high street electrical goods company...
Rant over :)
Stratmangler
25-01-2010, 12:49
Then I had to wait nearly 8 WEEKS (during which time it was away) for a f*ckwit computer engineer to source a new screen and fit it....... :rolleyes:
Why was the technician a f*ckwit ?
Because it took 8 weeks for a screen to arrive and be fitted ?
I can understand that you're aggrieved with the time it took for parts to arrive etc., but it's not exactly ethical to call someone f*ckwit just because they are anonymous to you.
Is it any wonder that the quality of service generally has gone down over the years ?
The quoted comment was totally unnecessary IMO.
Chris:(
Erm, Chris, with respect you don't know the ins and outs of the situation - the guy tried to rip me off bigtime, and all sorts, so let's leave it there. Trust me, this guy was a MAJOR f*ckwit :steam:
Marco.
Peter Galbavy
25-01-2010, 13:04
Just a note, to those who don't watch for these things, but I suspect the reason that Samsung have such a high turnover may be because the figures include their "heavy" divisions - they make nuclear reactors, for example :)
Good point, Peter! :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
25-01-2010, 13:24
Erm, Chris, with respect you don't know the ins and outs of the situation - the guy tried to rip me off bigtime, and all sorts, so let's leave it there. Trust me, this guy was a MAJOR f*ckwit :steam:
Marco.
To be fair I did use the words "anonymous to you" in my post.
It is obvious from your response that this is not the case.
I'll comment no further on the matter.
Chris:)
The same goes for Matsushita, who I believe own Panasonic.
Just a note, to those who don't watch for these things, but I suspect the reason that Samsung have such a high turnover may be because the figures include their "heavy" divisions - they make nuclear reactors, for example :)
Blimey, which aisle are they in at Currys then?! :scratch:
"Just past the white goods. Do you want water or advanced gas cooled, sir?"
Got to love the AoS thread drift - from re-boxed Blu-Ray player to nuclear reactors, via a laptop review, and a lesson in Japanese economics! Every day is a school day! ;)
The sales guys at PC World tend to ignore anyone who looks knowledeable, preferring instead to prey on family buyers who may not know what to buy... I have this on good authority from one who worked there for a while (AlexUK take note as we share the same one).......
I've bought old hard drives for my antique computers and laptops and I don't think it matters what you buy to be honest. I've had two identical drives made weeks apart and one went ape while the other is fine (the iffy one does basic backups and is now well behaved as a slave drive). I have a ten year old IBM which runs and runs still....
I think the cost of domestic electronics in general is underpriced and possibly bankrolled by the other pies the companies have their fingers in. I believe that Cambridge Audio is assembled by a computer manufacturer happy for the extra diversification...
Got to love the AoS thread drift - from re-boxed Blu-Ray player to nuclear reactors, via a laptop review, and a lesson in Japanese economics! Every day is a school day! ;)
Yes, it's like a friends' conversation in a bar.
AoS is aperitif time, all the time ! :lol:
Alan Sircom
29-01-2010, 19:56
Just so you know, I've officially dubbed this 'Lexigate'.
Now it can be a real scandal.
Hehehe.... Shocking though, isn't it Alan?
Marco.
(if someone could translate in simple words what Alan said, I would be thankful...) :o
Lexi (as in Lexicon) gate as in Watergate - i.e. a scandal.
Alan Sircom
29-01-2010, 20:30
Hehehe.... Shocking though, isn't it Alan?
Marco.
Well, yes... and no.
It's not as if Lexicon hasn't been doing this for years. Nor would it be the only company doing this. The rationale for Lexicon is the company sells processors, and many people who would buy a Lexicon processor won't buy one without a matching Lexicon player and amplifiers. Moreover, those putative Lexicon owners will not tend to take a budget player seriously, when set against a £10k processor.
As such, Lexicon needs a player in this price range, otherwise it risks losing one-brand sales to Denon and the like. It chose a good player and stuck a front panel on it, did a few minor (possibly cosmetic) changes to the menus and charged it in accordance to the usual Lexicon source component price, relative to the processor. Unfortunately, it seems there is a spirited campaign (possibly by one individual) to identify any OPPO-based player and dismiss it as a 'clone' or a 'rebadge'. There's also rumour that there might be something more malign to this, and that the spirited campaign is in fact orchestrated by OPPO resellers in the US, but I'm way too out of the loop to confirm that.
This is something of a sticking point, because those who are orchestrating this campaign have scored a victory with Theta (PSU upgrade and change to output board notwithstanding, the product had to drop in price) feel they have a moral victory with Lexicon and are setting their sights on Ayre. The last is a more expensive player, but has a lot more going on inside - full story here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=17402589#post17402589
Despite this, the campaign manager in the US is still trying to put the product out of action before it hits the streets, and yet is very, very complimentary toward OPPO players.
None of which detracts from the fact that Lexicon takes a $500 product and essentially charges $3000 to stick a front panel on it. But it does somewhat explain why Lexicon needs a $3000 player and why it needs to be something rock solid.
The Vinyl Adventure
29-01-2010, 20:51
id say its still shocking what ever way you look at, they have still done something undrhanded for financial gain, not only in encorageing people to buy there kit in the way you mention,butalsoin thehuge profit they are evidently intending on making on thisplayer.
i could perhaps forgive a £2k player that was then tinkerd with.. i understand that everyone has to make a cut... but £500 player for £3k ... thats just rude
if you are going to make so much profit from something, then at least try and be a bit more clever about it!
As usual, Charlie Hansen gives cool, detailed answers to forum questions. Respect to the man and all power to Ayre, a small company which puts sound quality first.
Hi Alan,
I think what you're saying is right, but that most certainly doesn't excuse that sort of behaviour.
What's wrong is essentially the attitude you describe below, which I see as a cancer in high-end audio, because it ensures that the market is flooded by so-so products wearing a fancy badge that don't deliver where it matters (presuming one of course is interested in the best possible audio and video performance in the first place):
The rationale for Lexicon is the company sells processors, and many people who would buy a Lexicon processor won't buy one without a matching Lexicon player and amplifiers. Moreover, those putative Lexicon owners will not tend to take a budget player seriously, when set against a £10k processor.
This is my (carefully considered) message to those people: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :wanker:
As such, Lexicon needs a player in this price range, otherwise it risks losing one-brand sales to Denon and the like. It chose a good player and stuck a front panel on it, did a few minor (possibly cosmetic) changes to the menus and charged it in accordance to the usual Lexicon source component price, relative to the processor.
Yes but the question is, why didn't they also carry out some significant component upgrades to the existing internal circuitry, which would've genuinely improved performance and at least gone some way to justifying the exorbitant price they were charging?
Or did they just think 'we'll make a few minor (possibly cosmetic) changes to the menus and charge it in accordance to the usual Lexicon source component price, relative to the processor, wack on a fancy front panel, and that'll be enough to fool the gullible badge snobs, haha...'? ;)
Actually, I shouldn't be laughing - it's a bloody disgrace!!
Marco.
I've read a good few threads regarding the state of the Top End in recent days and I'm afraid to say that US people far more in touch than I have all but given up on the top end now, as the overpriced bling now overrides almost everything. The people who used to buy mid to top end now seem to buy used and of course makers like Cambridge Audio and Rega (in the UK) are doing great stuff for not much money with genuine innovation and proper design in the case of Cambridge IMO.
The Top End market is now really rich far easterners and a few hundred audio enthusiasts in the US (I suspect), together with the remaining faithful Ab Sounds and ex Path Premier followers over here (I think it's thriving in mid Europe but know little about what goes on there). I really don't think the market is big enough any more and charlatans will be found out...
Alan Sircom
29-01-2010, 22:52
My hope is that companies can learn from this. Unfortunately, something like this damages everyone, because there's an assumption that a lot of upmarket electronics is little more than badge engineering. That patently isn't the case universally, but with each scandal, that gets harder than ever to explain.
If we are to grow from this, it's that 'me too' products are no longer practical. Everything has to stand on its own, not be shored up by products elsewhere in the line. If that means smaller product lines, so be it; better five good products than five good products and 10 mediocre ones.
The problem is that cuts both ways. If manufacturers can no longer make 'me too' products then people need not to walk away from companies that 'only' make the best preamplifier or the best CD player.
...
High-end audio is principally about the new and the now, never the 'then'. That's changed temporarily in the US because of the economy and audiogon is thriving ATM. But in the main, high-end buyers like the new car smell and don't like buying second-user products. The UK has always been an exception to the rule.
Spectral Morn
29-01-2010, 23:49
Its a shame Lexicon has done this, as their AV amplifiers and processors are very good, though due to the £ $ pricing factor are to dear imho anyway.
Regards D S D L
twelvebears
30-01-2010, 10:15
Just a note, to those who don't watch for these things, but I suspect the reason that Samsung have such a high turnover may be because the figures include their "heavy" divisions - they make nuclear reactors, for example :)
I used to work on HSBC's Korean Corporate Banking Team a few years back and it would stun some people if the knew the size of some of the companies they perhaps viewed as makers of 'Mickey Mouse' cars and electronics, such as Daewoo, Hyundai, LG, Samsung etc.
For example, Daewoo pioneered R&D in capacitor batteries, or ultra-capacitors (i.e with the charge/discharge rates of capacitors but the storage and charge retention of batteries) and LG Heavy Industries build most of the worlds largest commercial shipping....
High-end audio is principally about the new and the now, never the 'then'. That's changed temporarily in the US because of the economy and audiogon is thriving ATM. But in the main, high-end buyers like the new car smell and don't like buying second-user products. The UK has always been an exception to the rule.
Alan,
Perhaps they come under the category of Veblen goods:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
From the link above:
In economics, Veblen goods are a group of commodities for which peoples' preference for buying them increases as a direct function of their price, as greater price confers greater status, instead of decreasing according to the law of demand.
Some types of high-status goods, such as high-end wines, designer handbags and luxury cars, are Veblen goods, in that decreasing their prices decreases people's preference for buying them because they are no longer perceived as exclusive or high status products.[2] Similarly, a price increase may increase that high status and perception of exclusivity, thereby making the good even more preferable.
Sad, sad, sad....... :rolleyes:
Marco.
twelvebears
30-01-2010, 10:36
As usual, Charlie Hansen gives cool, detailed answers to forum questions. Respect to the man and all power to Ayre, a small company which puts sound quality first.
Agreed. That kind of reworking of a cheaper base machine is perfectly OK in my opinion, and the amount of work and real improvements totally justifies the cost differential.
The Lexigate situation is completely different and indefensible. The fact that someone has chosen to pull them up on it while others have got away with it doesn't make it right.
Frankly any noteworthy company with serious audiophile credentials, who does what Lexicon has done, is taking the piss out of their customers and frankly, doesn't deserve to be successful.
If ever there was a reason to stick with smaller companies, bespoke engineering and people with real integrity like Stan, Mark from Audiocom and the like, this is it.
If ever there was a reason to stick with smaller companies, bespoke engineering and people with real integrity like Stan, Mark from Audiocom and the like, this is it.
Hear, hear Steve!
It's promoting manufacturers like that which AOS is all about. We will always champion products that are designed from honest and genuine high performance audio principles and which are reliable and deliver the highest SPPV. We don't do 'audiophile jewellery' here. That's best kept for mugs with more money than sense ;)
Marco.
The Vinyl Adventure
30-01-2010, 11:32
Alans comments actually remind me of a conversation I had with one of my local competitors in wedding photography, I have known him for years since before he was a wedding photographer, so we get on pretty well and discus each others business ideas... We have also gone very different routes to clients, I take the laid back aproach I have a couple of package deals, but for the most part offer a bespoke service which usually entails me selling my services a bit short of the going rate... It suits me though as I take a much more informal aproach to the day and try and have a laugh with the clients as such I'm frequently asked to stay and have a couple of drinks and "enjoy the party" this works for some people, especially younger couples who just want a fun day.
His aproach is formal and profesional he offers 4 expensive packages and is very strict about what the customer gets for the money, and as such markets him self to a "higher class" of people. Our photos - the end product are in the same league.
Last time I spoke to him he told me he was putting his prices up this year, by quite a lot... Like by a grand!! He is doing nothing different, just doing less weddings for richer people! And he will get the work! He is the same photographer, just in a different package!
I can't be buggered with dealing with snobby people, and my intention is to ferther my work in other areas of photography... But I'm not going to say I haven't been tempted... At the end of the day, my morals, and desire to work for people I actually like prevent it...
My point is though, rich people are daft, there will always be companies that apeal to stupid rich people ... Lexicon have just been too stupid and got busted. Like I said before, if you are going to do something like this, at least be clever enough to not make it so obvious.
I hold lexicon, and stupid rich people reposible for this... Maybe us sencible poor people should leave them to it ...
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