HELP!!! Studer B62

[Geefresh]

So, after months and months of trying to find a reel-to-reel and decide on a model to use as my master recorder in my little bedroom studio, I saw a Studer B62 on eBay, sold as working, and bought it. It was a fair distance away from me and I wanted it to have a complete overhaul so after picking it up I took it straight to a proper service engineer to be serviced/aligned/recapped etc. Due to waiting for the big power caps to arrive from Auz and there being a big power amp order the eng had to fill, he was delayed by a good couple of months in setting to work and I have just received an email saying he is giving up on it. He has completely recapped it, repaired multiple other faults and replaced the bridge rectifier which was blowing the fuses after 4 seconds. He now says the capstan motor is not working at all, after being slow previously, and that it is the board for this that is fault altho all components test fine when cold. He says he's spent too much time on it and doesn't want to chase anymore faults.

Before I had this news I had decided against having reel-to-reel now and have gone back to cassette (I know, I know...) and was going to sell the machine as soon as I got it back, probably for a loss, and put the money towards my son's schooling. Not being able to sell it means I'll lose a huge chunk of £££ and won't be able to save that money for my son.

Can anyone help? Know what the fault might be? Have a spare capstan motor board?! Recommend anyone that'd be capable and happy to finish the job? Help!

Thanking you in advance.

[topoxforddoc]

You could PM Lodgesound. Stewart isn't very well at the moment, so it may take a while for a reply. Stewart's friend, Philip, might be able to do the job, but it depends on when he can get time away from his job as a broadcast engineer.

[Geefresh]

Yes, and I know he's got (or had?) a non-working B62. I did try messaging him but it said his inbox was full so it couldn't be sent...

[Arkless Electronics]

I can fix the capstan motor board for you, if that is indeed what is wrong. I have a B62 myself which I was renovating but had to leave at 90% done due to the capstan motor itself being faulty.

[topoxforddoc]

Geoff,
Stewart in fact has a rare EMT A62 (as opposed to B62). I think he has got it pretty much working now.
Charlie

[Lodgesound]

Hi Geoff;

I have an almost working A62 (no audio channel 2 and 2 broken operation buttons).

Not prepared to part it out I'm afraid but it does pull tape.

Was going to offer it as open to offers (sensible one hopes) and for collection only.

[Geefresh]

Thanks all.

Well he says it's the board. I've asked for clarification, no reply as yet. Should it be the motor, is that it? Or can they be rebuilt?

How would we go about that, Arkless? I see you're in the North East. Not much chance of me getting up there. Would I send you just the board or the whole shebang?

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses and sell it as not working. Take a £600+ hit. Ouch.

[Lodgesound]

I assume the machine was switched on and checked / tested / fully reported on before any replacement parts were fitted?

Seriously if that was not the case then I simply dont understand how it could just "be the board'.

The motor is an AC one and can be checked relatively easily.

Could you perhaps provide the report that was given when the machine was first switched on and all the relevant tests run assuming it did in fact power up?

The A and B 62's are quite different beasts electronically speaking.

My A62 is as original and was switched on before anything was attempted only manifesting the one fault which it now has ie. one audio channel down on replay.

[Geefresh]

No. As far as I know he just recapped most of the boards before turning it on and then awaited the caps from Australia/filled his power amp order. This is the email I received...

"Well I have fixed yet more problems with wiring, components and age.
Finally, after all this - the capstan motor drive has now stopped - (it was running extremely slowly.

I have decided after a total of around 10 days work [i seriously doubt this is true - Geoff] to give in to this monster machine.

It is fully re-capped - it has had a plethora of bearings replaced, power supply problems (now fixed), wiring breaks within the cable looms (now fixed) and a lot of checking, dis-assembley, re-assembly - checking again.

I am not prepared to waste any more of my time on this machine - I do not have a replacement Capstan motor board - although all components cold measure correctly.

If you can come and collect I would be grateful.
The other a77 machine from your friend has been repaired and setup.

My bill for all the work on the Studer is £200 - far less than it should be.
The bill for your friend's machine is £155"

[Arkless Electronics]

Thanks all.

Well he says it's the board. I've asked for clarification, no reply as yet. Should it be the motor, is that it? Or can they be rebuilt?

How would we go about that, Arkless? I see you're in the North East. Not much chance of me getting up there. Would I send you just the board or the whole shebang?

I'm wondering if I should just cut my losses and sell it as not working. Take a £600+ hit. Ouch.

In the case of the motor on mine it's "out of true"... not much one can do about that! You would have to send just the board and I can then check it in my machine (it works fine apart from noticeable vibration and slight flutter from the bent motor) and repair it if required. I wouldn't be surprised if I find nothing wrong with the motor board though and it's actually a power supply issue or some such.

[topoxforddoc]

Geoff,

I hate to say this, but

IF the machine was truly working as sold to you, then it sounds like your service engineer might have just turned it into a basket case. Sure, some of the Frako caps used in the Studer power supplies were flaky, but changing vast amounts of components before even turning the thing on is just criminal. Yes, some of the components might be out of spec after 40 years plus, but that doesn't mean that you need a mass rebuild. Studer were really OCD in matching components, when assembling the boards. If the components have all drifted a little over time, it probably doesn't matter.

When I bought my first Sony APR 5002, it pulled tape and it played. It wasn't great, but it "worked". All I needed was the heads relapping, a new battery to save the software settings, lubricating the motors and a line up. My Studer A807/II hasn't had a single thing replaced. My newer Sony APR 5003 hasn't had as single thing done, apart from a tape line up. It is absolutely on the money in terms of line up. These are all 30 year old machines.

Now I apologise if I have got it wrong and if I have maligned a competent engineer, but I would be distraught, if I was in your shoes. I hope you get a solution, but maybe some of the others can make some sensible suggestions.

Charlie

[Arkless Electronics]

Geoff,

I hate to say this, but

IF the machine was truly working as sold to you, then it sounds like your service engineer might have just turned it into a basket case. Sure, some of the Frako caps used in the Studer power supplies were flaky, but changing vast amounts of components before even turning the thing on is just criminal. Yes, some of the components might be out of spec after 40 years plus, but that doesn't mean that you need a mass rebuild. Studer were really OCD in matching components, when assembling the boards. If the components have all drifted a little over time, it probably doesn't matter.

When I bought my first Sony APR 5002, it pulled tape and it played. It wasn't great, but it "worked". All I needed was the heads relapping, a new battery to save the software settings, lubricating the motors and a line up. My Studer A807/II hasn't had a single thing replaced. My newer Sony APR 5003 hasn't had as single thing done, apart from a tape line up. It is absolutely on the money in terms of line up. These are all 30 year old machines.

Now I apologise if I have got it wrong and if I have maligned a competent engineer, but I would be distraught, if I was in your shoes. I hope you get a solution, but maybe some of the others can make some sensible suggestions.

Charlie

I didn't want to say it.... but +1. The broken wires bit sounds suss to me....

[337alant]

Its a shame after all that work that its still not working :scratch:
BTW £200 is very cheap for the extent of the work carried out
If the motor tests OK it should still be possible to get the control board working
I wouldn't give up on it

Alan

[Cas]

Try Steve at Vintage tech.

https://www.vintagetech.co.uk/

[Lodgesound]

I was going to comment about the broken wires - anyone who has ever seen the way these things are built would be equally bemused by such a statement - even if it had been dropped from quite a height the bracing of the main chassis is so strong as to make such occurrances highly unlikely.

[Cas]

Being a person who has done chassis wiring and made many wiring looms/harnesses etc how on earth would/could a wire break actually within the loom ?

[topoxforddoc]

Being a person who has done chassis wiring and made many wiring looms/harnesses etc how on earth would/could a wire break actually within the loom ?

+1

[topoxforddoc]

Geoff,

I'm sorry if the last few posts have been rather negative - that's not a reflection on you, but just a realistic view of what might have happened. Stewart (Lodgesound) has fettled more machines than almost anyone else in the UK, given his background at the BBC, C4 and the BFI. Studer machines are normally built like proverbial tanks. They were designed for constant use day in day out. I suspect that you should be able to salvage your terrible predicament, but it's likely to cost you more money.

A fully restored B62 might fetch £1500, so you still have some credit in the bank, so to speak. But only you can make a decision as to what to do next. you will get most of your money back, as a B62 requiring work will still fetch some money. The think about R2R (as a hobbyist rather than as a pro engineer) is to buy the very best machine you can find - it's cheaper in the long run (just like classic cars). If I were looking for another machine (which I'm not, as I have 3), I would be buying Telefunken M15A or M20 from Hilpert (who provided AEG Telefunken service, before buying the company).

http://www.hilpert-audio.de/audio/index_e.php?site=geraete&inhalt=geraete/e_geraete_aeg_m15.htm

http://www.hilpert-audio.de/audio/index_e.php?site=geraete&inhalt=geraete/e_geraete_aeg_m20.htm

[Geefresh]

So I picked it up yesterday and I am a bit more reassured. There's a transformer on the board and he says it's either that or a wiring loom fault. He said he tested the motor and that's fine and he has spares of those anyway (if you want one, Arkless?).

[Geefresh]

Just seen all the other replies. Thanks.

Yes, I thought the wires breaking thing was a bit weird so I asked him about it and he said that something or other wasn't working so he bridged that part of loom out with another bit of wire and it worked, so...

I think pretty much all he works on is A77s, B77s and PR99s so it's possible he was a bit out of his comfort zone. But, still, from what you say about standard working practises, I guess that appears to have been lacking. I won't name names here altho, if anyone is interested, I think I mentioned it in a previous post.

There's a capstan board on eBay now but that's an £80 risk that it is actually that. I guess the best course of action from here would be to first take Arkless up on his offer to send mine to him to try in his machine and go from there. It still needs biasing/aligning etc etc so I'll have to take it somewhere for that before sale anyway.

[Geefresh]

Posting board to you today, Arkless, if ok? First class so hopefully you can give me the verdict on if you can repair it/whether or not it is that in time for that eBay one. Cheers!

[Arkless Electronics]

Posting board to you today, Arkless, if ok? First class so hopefully you can give me the verdict on if you can repair it/whether or not it is that in time for that eBay one. Cheers!

Yes that's fine but I'm rather busy atm so can't guarantee to check it out before ebay listing ends. I presume you've found my address?

[Geefresh]

Yeah, off t'internet! Cheers!

Did you see my post about the geezer having a new capstan motor for your 62?

[Arkless Electronics]

Yeah, off t'internet! Cheers!

Did you see my post about the geezer having a new capstan motor for your 62?

I did thanks. It's not a priority for me to fix it and I wouldn't be willing to pay the going rate so my B62 will probably remain an objet 'd art. It could do with a new pinch roller as well and I definitely won't pay what they go for! £100 for a rubber wheel? Nah. (if anyone knows where they are available for half that I'm still not interested I'm afraid). I have a much better machine in my PR99 MkIII for the once in 5 years I may actually use a R2R....

Your board just arrived BTW :)

[337alant]

Jez,
This Terrys rubber rollers is supposed to be very good and reasonable price , only problem is he is in America :rolleyes:

http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/

Alan

[Geefresh]

I got my replacement for £60 so...

[Arkless Electronics]

I spent a ridiculous amount of time on the machine as something to "lose myself in" after the death of my father... replaced most of the bearings with scientific grade items etc (very probably didn't need it) and was planning on totally sorting it. When I came to the conclusion that the motor itself was slightly out of true I just gave up on it. It's sat there with a sheet over it for about 18 years now! The pinch roller was useable but hardening back then and would definitely need replacing now. I very rarely use R2R these days so I can't justify maybe £200 (I'm guessing) for a known 100% good motor and £60 - £120 on a pinch roller. Maybe one day I'll have my "vintage head" on and have a flash of inspiration to sort it:)

[337alant]

Jez
I feel sorry for you service engineers with vintage equipment like this you are between a rock and a hard place as what to charge for this type of repair work. What people expect to pay and the actual hours spent to restore these machines just doesn't add up.
If it was a car a garage would charge a fixed hourly rate and extra charges for testing which would make this kind of work a totally uneconomical repair.

I only do this as a hobby but its still obvious from the machines I have restored so far that there are a lot of hours and specialist equipment required to get these vintage machines repaired Calibrated and fully functional again.

This is one area that you have to be aware of if you consider buying Reel 2 Reel machines particularly the vintage ones

That said I still love them and the sound is superb :D

Alan

[Barry]

About four years ago I came very close to buying a Studer C37 at a very good price. The seller lived only about 50 miles from me and the machine was in very good condition (complete with VU meter unit).

After a lot of soul-searching, I decided that it would have been a caprice on my part to have the machine as I would not have used it fully, and spares for it would become rare, expensive and difficult to obtain. It seemed wrong to buy it and not use it, and deny the chance for other enthusiasts to properly employ the machine.

So in the end the head won.

[Arkless Electronics]

Jez
I feel sorry for you service engineers with vintage equipment like this you are between a rock and a hard place as what to charge for this type of repair work. What people expect to pay and the actual hours spent to restore these machines just doesn't add up.
If it was a car a garage would charge a fixed hourly rate and extra charges for testing which would make this kind of work a totally uneconomical repair.

I only do this as a hobby but its still obvious from the machines I have restored so far that there are a lot of hours and specialist equipment required to get these vintage machines repaired Calibrated and fully functional again.

This is one area that you have to be aware of if you consider buying Reel 2 Reel machines particularly the vintage ones

That said I still love them and the sound is superb :D

Alan

This is why I didn't offer to take over the repair of the entire machine for "Geefresh" and why I only offer to repair electronic faults for customers with R2R's. It should be remembered that a B62 was approx £16000 in todays money and a C37 £35000 when new. Properly overhauling such machines will often cost more than the machine is worth if charging commercial rates for repair. As you say specialises equipment is often required such as calibration tapes... fragile and expensive! I went to the lengths of designing and building my own tape tension gauge when working on my B62...

[337alant]

Just for info I bought a set of these spring balance gauges and they have been really useful
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Newton-Meters-Spring-Balances-Force-Meter-Dynamometer-Free-Uk-Postage-/321759463296?hash=item4aea5bc780:m:mRv4yKgcBOqL1ym QwZq8qZw.

Alan

[Geefresh]

What's the word, Arkless?

[Arkless Electronics]

What's the word, Arkless?

"Sorted" is the word;) PM sent.