Do Cables Make A Difference?

[magiccarpetride]

Do they?

[Colin Wonfor]

In some cases NO but with a dynamic changing signal and a with a constantly changing frequency / amplitude/impedance loads and a power pack that hates load changes oh YES.
But the key is can you hear it? Is it in your mind ? How much do external physical object i.e. the room and it furniture effect what you hear or not.
Some lucky devils never hear a improvement or a change, other like me do. It is a real nightmare of a subject and has many controversial response , from "Great Scott" to "Snakeoil" all are valid it is what you hear that matters. And at what cost to your pocket. If you cant hear any useful improvement then save the money and have a good evening out at a concert. ( Oh tell us what one you went to please)

[struth]

Its a case of the Kenny Dalgleish's :D

[Marco]

I like blue ones, with nice fat, brass plugs on the end... Don't ask why! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Colin Wonfor]

I love 60A 3 Phase cable fitted with 6 inch Gold plated nails, OK it sounds crap but then others see it, and it confirms there worst fear "He is Mad" and run away so I keep the coffee mmmm.

[struth]

I like blue ones, with nice fat, brass plugs on the end... Don't ask why! :eyebrows:

Marco.

big purple ones are best so I'm told

[Marco]

When 'fully engorged' mate, after it turns purple, it goes blue! :D

Marco.

[alphaGT]

I recall having read in a popular magazine that the writers were shocked and pleased to hear major differences in cables! (1986) So, trying to keep an open mind on the subject. My wife at that time and I went to my favorite salon to pose the question. He took the time to demonstrate 4 sets of cables. Between the preamp and amp of a system of similar price to what I owned. A B&K Sonata if I recall. And we all heard the same thing. My wife and I were in total agreement of what their differences were. None were life and death, or the difference one hears between a $1000 and a $2000 CD player. But, there was a difference. And the most expensive was not our favorite. I bought the pair and once home, replacing the tiny Siamese give away wires I was using, the improvement was evident to both of us, and in the exact same ways. I do not subscribe to mass hallucinations, if two or more people see or hear the exact same thing, there must be something to it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[magiccarpetride]

I recall having read in a popular magazine that the writers were shocked and pleased to hear major differences in cables! (1986) So, trying to keep an open mind on the subject. My wife at that time and I went to my favorite salon to pose the question. He took the time to demonstrate 4 sets of cables. Between the preamp and amp of a system of similar price to what I owned. A B&K Sonata if I recall. And we all heard the same thing. My wife and I were in total agreement of what their differences were. None were life and death, or the difference one hears between a $1000 and a $2000 CD player. But, there was a difference. And the most expensive was not our favorite. I bought the pair and once home, replacing the tiny Siamese give away wires I was using, the improvement was evident to both of us, and in the exact same ways. I do not subscribe to mass hallucinations, if two or more people see or hear the exact same thing, there must be something to it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks for sharing. My experiences are all over the map. I've tried different cables on different components, and experienced variety of subjective impressions. Sometimes I was not able to hear any differences, sometimes I was startled at the magnitude of a difference a lowly cable can make. My conclusion is that, empirically speaking, it's pretty much on a case-to-case basis. There doesn't seem to be a cut-and-dry formula that guarantees if you get this cable or that cable, you will hear improvements. It all depends on your particular configuration (including your speaker positioning and your listening room).

[Arkless Electronics]

Do all apples have pips?

[Dynamics]

The answer is they surely do make a difference. But it depends on lots of things. I do think if the system isn't up to very good sound quality standards, it's highly dubious if cables can make big differences. I've heard only nuanced differences in speakers around £1000 and amplification the same, when I've owned such a system, but when my speakers and amps got a lot better, the cables can make profound differences. I suppose whenever a system can be more sensitive to changes you will notice more. It's maybe a bit like using very good fuel on a Ferrari will show up more than a lesser performing car. Shielding is pretty big in comparative tests too.

It's not always expensive is better , but it can follow and cables in the chord and tellurium ranges for example have great reputations. I've found going up through the chord range the sound does get better, but law of diminishing returns comes in.

Before I changed my speakers I used cheap talk cable with my old pmc twenty 23s and the talks just sapped all dynamics from the sound compared to my chord epic reference cables. But when I changed speakers to pmc twenty5 23 the talks are not that bad

[Pieoftheday]

The answer is they surely do make a difference. But it depends on lots of things. I do think if the system isn't up to very good sound quality standards, it's highly dubious if cables can make big differences. I've heard only nuanced differences in speakers around £1000 and amplification the same, when I've owned such a system, but when my speakers and amps got a lot better, the cables can make profound differences. I suppose whenever a system can be more sensitive to changes you will notice more. It's maybe a bit like using very good fuel on a Ferrari will show up more than a lesser performing car. Shielding is pretty big in comparative tests too.

It's not always expensive is better , but it can follow and cables in the chord and tellurium ranges for example have great reputations. I've found going up through the chord range the sound does get better, but law of diminishing returns comes in.

Before I changed my speakers I used cheap talk cable with my old pmc twenty 23s and the talks just sapped all dynamics from the sound compared to my chord epic reference cables. But when I changed speakers to pmc twenty5 23 the talks are not that bad

Some amp manufacturer s recommend you use only their speaker cable otherwise you'll void warranty,why? I honestly don't know why?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Some amp manufacturer s recommend you use only their speaker cable otherwise you'll void warranty,why? I honestly don't know why?

The naim NAP250 is one such amp, it is because what is called a Zobel network that helps the amplifier
drive a speaker lead ( not the speaker itself ) in the case of naim leads, the characteristics of a zobel
were embodied into the speaker lead, rather than as is normally done within the amplifier.

In the power amp speaker relationship, up to three zobels can be used, one at the power amp to
assist driving the leads, another at the speaker binding posts, and another is sometimes seen
across the voice coil. Audiophiles are yet to catch up with the zobel at the speaker binding posts
which was advocated by Cyril Bateman,

[Pieoftheday]

The naim NAP250 is one such amp, it is because what is called a Zobel network that helps the amplifier
drive a speaker lead ( not the speaker itself ) in the case of naim leads, the characteristics of a zobel
were embodied into the speaker lead, rather than as is normally done within the amplifier.

In the power amp speaker relationship, up to three zobels can be used, one at the power amp to
assist driving the leads, another at the speaker binding posts, and another is sometimes seen
across the voice coil. Audiophiles are yet to catch up with the zobel at the speaker binding posts
which was advocated by Cyril Bateman,

Do nva recommend the use of their own otherwise invalidateing warranty? So z if I'm wrong? Zobel? Eh oh ek I'm GNA get a bose!!

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Do nva recommend the use of their own otherwise invalidateing warranty? So z if I'm wrong
Hi James
You would need to check with NVA, but is unusual to build the characteristics of a zobel network into the lead itself
and at the same time leave out the zobel to drive the speaker lead in the amp. AFAIK Naim were the only manufacturer to do this.

A zobel for the amp to drive speaker leads is typically a network of a 10 ohm resistor in series to ground with a
100nf capacitor, but variations occur like in a quad 306 that has 10R and 47 nano-farad.

You can see these parts placed close to the output of the amplifier. The amplifier zobel to drive speaker leads
has received much study, and work done by Douglas Self looks at it closely.

[Pieoftheday]

Hi James
You would need to check with NVA, but is unusual to build the characteristics of a zobel network into the lead itself
and at the same time leave out the zobel to drive the speaker lead in the amp. AFAIK Naim were the only manufacturer to do this.

A zobel for the amp to drive speaker leads is typically a network of a 10 ohm resistor in series to ground with a
100nf capacitor, but variations occur like in a quad 306 that has 10R and 47 nano-farad.

You can see these parts placed close to the output of the amplifier. The amplifier zobel to drive speaker leads
has received much study, and work done by Douglas Self looks at it closely.

Well that's easy for you to say:scratch: thanks for your reply Chris,all a bit complicated for me though:)

[danilo]

:eyebrows: Not ...all amps Require Or benefit from Zobels
Chip amps do though.

[magiccarpetride]

The answer is they surely do make a difference. But it depends on lots of things. I do think if the system isn't up to very good sound quality standards, it's highly dubious if cables can make big differences. I've heard only nuanced differences in speakers around £1000 and amplification the same, when I've owned such a system, but when my speakers and amps got a lot better, the cables can make profound differences. I suppose whenever a system can be more sensitive to changes you will notice more. It's maybe a bit like using very good fuel on a Ferrari will show up more than a lesser performing car. Shielding is pretty big in comparative tests too.

It's not always expensive is better , but it can follow and cables in the chord and tellurium ranges for example have great reputations. I've found going up through the chord range the sound does get better, but law of diminishing returns comes in.

Before I changed my speakers I used cheap talk cable with my old pmc twenty 23s and the talks just sapped all dynamics from the sound compared to my chord epic reference cables. But when I changed speakers to pmc twenty5 23 the talks are not that bad

I think the classic counter-argument (against cables being capable of making an improvement) is with the integrated amp vs separates. If you take a good quality integrated amp, and then you separate the preamp from the power amp by placing each component into a separate box, you now need to connect them by using cables. So how can now those cables make the sound better than it was before the preamp and the amp got separated?

[walpurgis]

I think the classic counter-argument (against cables being capable of making an improvement) is with the integrated amp vs separates. If you take a good quality integrated amp, and then you separate the preamp from the power amp by placing each component into a separate box, you now need to connect them by using cables. So how can now those cables make the sound better than it was before the preamp and the amp got separated?

I don't think there's any argument that all cables are detrimental to sound, but they are unavoidable links in the chain in most systems, so it's worth experimenting to find the cables that have the least bad effect in whichever application. Which is what I do. Audible effects from cable changes are easily discerned, although some do 'sound' similar.

[magiccarpetride]

I don't think there's any argument that all cables are detrimental to sound, but they are unavoidable links in the chain in most systems, so it's worth experimenting to find the cables that have the least bad effect in whichever application. Which is what I do. Audible effects from cable changes are easily discerned, although some do 'sound' similar.

So in this example, splitting the integrated amp into preamp and the power amp will always sound worse than it sounded when being integrated under the same 'roof'?

[Haselsh1]

So how can now those cables make the sound better than it was before the preamp and the amp got separated?

I don't think that it necessarily makes the sound better, it makes the sound different. In my system I use different interconnects for digital and analogue because I use the cables as subtle tone controls.

[Marco]

May I ask why, Shaun?

I'm intrigued, because I do precisely the opposite, and seek to use those with the least discernible sonic signature, as in my view, interconnect cables should act as far as possible as a neutral conduit for the music signal, thus allowing the partnering equipment and recording to 'speak for itself' :)

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

So in this example, splitting the integrated amp into preamp and the power amp will always sound worse than it sounded when being integrated under the same 'roof'?

Hi Alex
No, because internally in a integrated amp there is economic benefit in running interconnects using
circuit board tracks, it is just too enticing by some manufacturers, to stoop to put the unit together quickly,
not necessarily with any audio benefit. If they stopped instead for 12 months, examining how to design
circuit board tracks properly, away from their usual duty carrying digital and analog ground planes
and power supply returns and general circuit noise - things might be different.

For instance, if they use wiring it sometimes is ribbon cable with computer type connectors, also not
necessarily with any audio benefit.

This opens the topic of shielding, and cables that are shielded vs those that are not,
shielding being a lot more costly.

So viewing cabling or its minimum standards as an economic benefit to manufacturers,
should alert discovery of at least 2 properties of cables that occur when there is more
funds available. Namely coaxial and twisted pair construction.

Cheers / Chris
.

[Haselsh1]

May I ask why, Shaun?

I'm intrigued, because I do precisely the opposite, and seek to use those with the least discernible sonic signature, as in my view, interconnect cables should act as far as possible as a neutral conduit for the music signal, thus allowing the partnering equipment and recording to 'speak for itself' :)

Marco.

Yeah Marco, my CD system is slightly edgy in the top end so I calm it with the interconnects, my vinyl system's sound suits a totally different interconnect so I use a totally different cable for that. It has taken Sue and I four years to get where we are right now starting with listening to various interconnects and then settling on Atlas Hyper cables and QED Reference.

[Marco]

No worries, mate. Whatever works, works. I'm impressed that your good lady is so involved in the process! Nice one :cool:

Marco.

[Haselsh1]

Marco, Sue is just as involved as I am and specifically loves Brand X, Mahavishnu Orchestra and Metallica :doh:

[magiccarpetride]

Marco, Sue is just as involved as I am and specifically loves Brand X, Mahavishnu Orchestra and Metallica :doh:

Imagine someone forming a band "Mahavishnu Metallica"!

[Spectral Morn]

Just reminded earlier today, how big a difference a cable can make. Once again a not so subtle improvement. Par for the course and I think a deaf man or woman could have heard it.

[farflungstar]

Cables, in my opinion, have a greater or lesser affect depending on the transparency of a system. If your system is baseline transparent and balanced (not forward, recessed unless that's your thing) then yes swapping cables is audible - to a greater or lesser extent. These changes can be both veiling/tonal in nature and make perfect sense when looking at electrical characteristics.

I have recently gone through an interconnect journey due to rack changes and the inclusion of a SUT. My system is, I believe very transparent and balanced, meaning no part of the range is exaggerated or recessed, at least to my ears.

My regular Cardas were too short and too hard in the mid between SUT and phono stage. Open and extended yes but just not quite right with the SUT.

I then changed all interconnects for some very well known ones on here. I didn't like what they did in my system - they seemed to raise the mid and highs which pushed things forward. But again my rack changed and gave me a reason to change everything again.

For a long long time I've considered VDH Integration but been put off by people's opinion of them. Some say they are the best, others they are dull and boring. But I trusted my instincts and went for it. They are perfect. They are open and extended, deep and controlled, the soundstage is excellent and no part is out of kilter with the rest - in my system.

[Macca]

Just reminded earlier today, how big a difference a cable can make. Once again a not so subtle improvement. Par for the course and I think a deaf man or woman could have heard it.

LOL I am also hearing cable differences at the moment, in this case speaker cable.

Not even different brands, just two different lengths of NVA cable. The thicker one gives a bassier sound, puts the mid and top further back, the thinner one brings the mid and top forward compared to the bass, It is a significant difference in presentation, although not in quality (the two should never be confused). I'd expect even a civilian to notice the difference between the two pretty much instantly.

These people like Jez who say there is no technical reason so you are imagining it - if they came round here and I demonstrated the difference I know that they would not sit there and say 'I don't hear it.' because they just couldn't, not with a straight face. I know the first thing they would do is exam the system, examine the cables and then tell me the technical reason. Well why could you just not do that in the first place instead of telling me I was dreaming!

[farflungstar]

LOL I am also hearing cable differences at the moment, in this case speaker cable.

Not even different brands, just two different lengths of NVA cable. The thicker one gives a bassier sound, puts the mid and top further back, the thinner one brings the mid and top forward compared to the bass, It is a significant difference in presentation, although not in quality (the two should never be confused). I'd expect even a civilian to notice the difference between the two pretty much instantly.

These people like Jez who say there is no technical reason so you are imagining it - if they came round here and I demonstrated the difference I know that they would not sit there and say 'I don't hear it.' because they just couldn't, not with a straight face. I know the first thing they would do is exam the system, examine the cables and then tell me the technical reason. Well why could you just not do that in the first place instead of telling me I was dreaming!
I think jez in another post said that a cables properties such as gauge, capacitance, inductance etc would affect sound. His argument, I think, was that exotic materials etc in themselves would not affect sound.

I think this was my first disagreement with jez lol.

[YNWaN]

Hi James
You would need to check with NVA, but is unusual to build the characteristics of a zobel network into the lead itself
and at the same time leave out the zobel to drive the speaker lead in the amp. AFAIK Naim were the only manufacturer to do this.

Naim are certainly not the only manufactures to eschew the use of a Zobel network on the output of their amps - just off the top of my head there is NVA and Spectral. However, there is no network in the cable itself (at least not with Naim and NVA, you don't need a Zobel network as long as you aren't using high capacitance cables (and the cable presents sufficient inductance). Few speaker cables are high capacitance but there are exceptions (Goertz for example).

------
Regarding the audible difference between thick and thin speaker cables - I can't speak for Jez but I suspect his line is not that cables cannot make a difference but that as long as they are sufficiently specified they should not make a difference - the point being that the thin speaker cable is insufficiently specified.

[Arkless Electronics]

Naim are certainly not the only manufactures to eschew the use of a Zobel network on the output of their amps - just off the top of my head there is NVA and Spectral. However, there is no network in the cable itself (at least not with Naim and NVA, you don't need a Zobel network as long as you aren't using high capacitance cables (and the cable presents sufficient inductance). Few speaker cables are high capacitance but there are exceptions (Goertz for example).

------
Regarding the audible difference between thick and thin speaker cables - I can't speak for Jez but I suspect his line is not that cables cannot make a difference but that as long as they are sufficiently specified they should not make a difference - the point being that the thin speaker cable is insufficiently specified.

Correct.

[Arkless Electronics]

Naim are certainly not the only manufactures to eschew the use of a Zobel network on the output of their amps - just off the top of my head there is NVA and Spectral. However, there is no network in the cable itself (at least not with Naim and NVA, you don't need a Zobel network as long as you aren't using high capacitance cables (and the cable presents sufficient inductance). Few speaker cables are high capacitance but there are exceptions (Goertz for example).

------
Regarding the audible difference between thick and thin speaker cables - I can't speak for Jez but I suspect his line is not that cables cannot make a difference but that as long as they are sufficiently specified they should not make a difference - the point being that the thin speaker cable is insufficiently specified.

Naim do use a Zobel network but don't use the almost de rigour inductor at the output. Don't ask... it's technical enough to kill the thread and I'd have to slag Naim as part of the answer:D

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Naim are certainly not the only manufactures to eschew the use of a Zobel network on the output of their amps - just off the top of my head there is NVA and Spectral. However, there is no network in the cable itself (at least not with Naim and NVA, you don't need a Zobel network as long as you aren't using high capacitance cables (and the cable presents sufficient inductance). Few speaker cables are high capacitance but there are exceptions (Goertz for example).

------
Regarding the audible difference between thick and thin speaker cables - I can't speak for Jez but I suspect his line is not that cables cannot make a difference but that as long as they are sufficiently specified they should not make a difference - the point being that the thin speaker cable is insufficiently specified.

The zobel in an amplifier is placed for stability, and is required with any load that is even mildly inductive.
You risk VHF instability in the output stage without it.

[YNWaN]

Well, A/ you've effectively done that and B/ I don't know the detail of the Spectral and NVA but the essence of what I wrote is true.

[Macca]

------
Regarding the audible difference between thick and thin speaker cables - I can't speak for Jez but I suspect his line is not that cables cannot make a difference but that as long as they are sufficiently specified they should not make a difference - the point being that the thin speaker cable is insufficiently specified.

Right, So the thicker should just be better in every respect. But it isn't. Perfection, in this situation, would be somewhere between the two. So can you be using too thick a gauge as well as too thin?

[YNWaN]

Well.... it is, but whether it shows up discrepancies/inadequacies elsewhere is another matter and not it's fault.

[Macca]

Fair point. It could be that.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well, A/ you've effectively done that and B/ I don't know the detail of the Spectral and NVA but the essence of what I wrote is true.

A/ Yep :eyebrows: B/ Many amps these days don't use an inductor at the output... It was fairly de rigour and still is in power amps in general but amongst hi fi amps probably 40% or so these don't use an inductor at the output. Naim use 0.22R resistor, limiting damping factor to 18 for a 4R load, several others also use 0.22R, MF used 4 X 0.47R in parallel in many of their amps...
A Zobel network (AKA boucherot cell) is generally a good idea and is in parallel with the output rather than in line with it. Its reactance drops with frequency but at 20KHz would typically be equivalent to putting an extra 85R across the amp output. It's work is done at much higher frequencies. A feedback amplifier will usually have an inductive output impedance and it helps to counteract this and so aids stability in the amp itself (ie not oscillating!), as touched upon by Chris above.

[YNWaN]

Contentious, but that is my experience over the years.

To sort of summarise my experience, if the cables you are using remove something (bass, treble etc.) then they are actively doing something wrong. If your system therefore sounds boomy or peaky (etc) then it is at fault and the cables are merely letting that be audible.

[walpurgis]

If your system therefore sounds boomy or peaky (etc) then it is at fault and the cables are merely letting that be audible.

Some cables sound dire in whatever context. Therefore the cable is at fault. The very cheap and nasty (in my opinion) QED Silver Anniversary speaker cable, sounded bright and coarse on every occasion I tried it, regardless of system components.

[Arkless Electronics]

Contentious, but that is my experience over the years.

To sort of summarise my experience, if the cables you are using remove something (bass, treble etc.) then they are actively doing something wrong. If your system therefore sounds boomy or peaky (etc) then it is at fault and the cables are merely letting that be audible.

With speaker cable it's just make it as short as practical for you and use thick cable. The longer the cable the thicker it will need to be for the same low resistance obviously. That's about it for me on speaker cable.

I think I may be paraphrasing you here Mark but a thin cable with high resistance will allow the speakers impedance curve to alter its frequency response and so yes, thin/long cables actually will sound different to low resistance ones, however, this is because of the cables resistance allowing the speaker itself to interact with this resistance and hence kind of generate its own extra colouration. Lack of damping factor in other words!

A mate once bought some of that DNM single strand stuff an was saying it definitely sounded different but he wasn't sure if good or bad.... I went round for a listen with a few tools and yep it sounded different! Not in a good way I thought. I noticed just how thin this stuff was and so measured it.. it was adding over 1 Ohm for only about 4 meters of cable! Instant almost SET like absence of damping factor.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

A nice option to consider with speaker cables is to use the
properties of coaxial shielding. It is easy enough to just use the inner core
of a suitably dimensioned piece of coax for both positive and negative
and have the shield floating unconnected on each.

We live today with increasing RFI, so shielding speaker cables is very appealing
With my own system I use the stranded inner core of RG58 coax, and allow the
outer to act as a Faraday shield. I have had no desire to use any other cable
as it does its job admirably.

Think of when you go into an elevator with your mobile phone - should provoke
thought, that similarly protecting speaker leads with shielding can be advantageous.

Cheers / Chris

[Arkless Electronics]

A nice option to consider with speaker cables is to use the
properties of coaxial shielding. It is easy enough to just use the inner core
of a suitably dimensioned piece of coax for both positive and negative
and have the shield floating unconnected on each.

We live today with increasing RFI, so shielding speaker cables is very appealing
With my own system I use the stranded inner core of RG58 coax, and allow the
outer to act as a Faraday shield. I have had no desire to use any other cable
as it does its job admirably.

Think of when you go into an elevator with your mobile phone - should provoke
thought, that similarly protecting speaker leads with shielding can be advantageous.

Cheers / Chris

It would have to be pretty short for the resistance to be sufficiently negligible. A meter or two max maybe. There are much heavier duty coax cables available but not cheap or very flexible. I vaguely recall something from Cyril Bateman about using coax as speaker cable from several years ago but can't recall his conclusions...

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Hi Jez
I created a thread a while back with Cyril's cable measurements :
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?48715-Cyril-Bateman-speaker-side-Zobel-network

He reaches conclusion in his article: Cables, Amplifiers and Speaker interactions. part 1.
" Clearly as figures 3 through 12 have shown, speaker cables do
comply with established transmission line behaviour. "

and
"At audible frequencies, the amplifier output impedance presents an exceptionally low load impedance
compared to the cable Z0. These out of phase reflections will not enter the amplifier but will be reflected
and phase inverted, becoming in phase with and absorbed in the amplifier output signal, delayed by
twice the cable transit time plus any load phase angle. Assuming our typical 4.9metre length cable,
this two way transit time will approximate 50nS equivalent to just 0.36° at 20kHz, or 0.018° at 1kHz."

He further predicts the output Zobel, as preventing unwanted reflections, from entering back into the amplifier.

Cheers / Chris