Blind phono stage & amp; Capacitor testing

[Bigman80]

Hi all,

We've managed to do a bit of a blind listening testing today. We had the Nighthawk F117, FB modded Tron, FB-OTP MKI & FB-OTP MKII prototype.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/f5128813d462a9a0e1ad4dbbfd9726df.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/20f255512b92de76b629fe4b104dc71b.jpg

Well, it was a very interesting result. The FB-OTP MKII landed in fourth place. Tron and the Nighthawk were inseparable to my ears both units sounded fabulously rich and had extremely low background noise. The MKI FB-OTP was my favorite. So, after a bit of a discussion as to why the OTP MKII failed to podium, some mods were made. (Alan may elaborate here if he wishes)

What resulted was a much cleaner sounding unit. It was very precise sounding but it still had "noise" which Alan and i agreed was down to the Opamps in the unit. Luckily i'm waiting for these to arrive: http://sparkoslabs.com/product/discrete-op-amp-ss3602/ (any user opinions are welcome). There is also another Opamp on the way to test so stay tuned for more info on that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/68b5bbf442b6baf1c37ccb11eb527910.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170520/af7d76b8910f08fa3ca72617f38723f3.jpg

Now, over the last week or two i've been blindly testing the Caps in the MKI to find the upgrade to fit in the MKII. Again a pair of 0.72p Caps outperformed some Mundorf ZNs which was a real surprise, thankfully, there were another set of great sounding Caps which are now being testing against stiffer competition.

More to follow!

[struth]

Interesting that the mk1 beat the mk2. How did that happen?

[Bigman80]

Well, Alan has experimented with removing the output caps from the signal path and this in turn has meant some jiggery pokery to get the values right BUT it didn't quite go according to plan. It left the MKII sounding very thin. This was later improved somewhat but more Trial and error is needed. It sounded almost analytical by the time i had to go so i'm sure it will get there. Another difference was the channel separation wasn't quite as good as the MKI but i'm not sure what can be done about that yet. It may have to go back to having the caps but that clarity was phenominal. Alan is also considering having custom PCB's made to get the sound hes after.

[struth]

Ah ok. Keep us posted oli

[walpurgis]

I'd still like to know why different capacitors have different 'sounds'.

(good to hear from you Oliver, not sure about that avatar though :D)

[Bigman80]

Will do. Seems like the winning caps from the last test are struggling to beat the competition this time.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

Yes it's all interesting stuff Grant.
I tried an alternative gain structure with the removal of the output caps, but the loading on the equalisation network had to change in order to keep a low output offset voltage.

I think Oli is exaggerating a bit when he says it was very thin, it wasn't that different, but we are trying to optimise every aspect.
:)

[Firebottle]

I'd still like to know why different capacitors have different 'sounds'.

I have the belief that the circuit position, in terms of surrounding impedances, plus in some cases the voltage across the capacitors, all makes an effect to the sound.
Also different types of construction and winding technique can make a difference.

No cap is perfect :doh:

[walpurgis]

No cap is perfect :doh:

The one I wear ain't bad! :)

[Bigman80]

Yes it's all interesting stuff Grant.
I tried an alternative gain structure with the removal of the output caps, but the loading on the equalisation network had to change in order to keep a low output offset voltage.

I think Oli is exaggerating a bit when he says it was very thin, it wasn't that different, but we are trying to optimise every aspect.
:)
Well maybe the "very" was a over stating it a touch 😉. It was very good by the time I left though and trying to wring every bit out of the unit is going to throw the odd curve ball but its getting there and wasn't far off TBH.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

I'd still like to know why different capacitors have different 'sounds'.

(good to hear from you Oliver, not sure about that avatar though :D)
Hi Geoff, its nice to be back!

I have no idea why they sound different but they do! It was very noticeable too. The wife said "whats happened to the sound" when I was testing. I flipped the switch to my favourites and she said "ah, that's much better" so without even telling he anything, she could here it too.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[G T Audio]

Shouldn't this thread be in the DIY section?

[karma67]

i believe so,

[Bigman80]

Does R&D belong in DIY? I must've read the stickies 6 times and still get it wrong. Im sure one of our kind Mods will correct it if necessary.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[topoxforddoc]

R&D for a manufacturer should probably go in the trader's section in trade impressions. That's where Jez from Arkless, Paul from RFC and others put their new developments.

If it's an individual DIY project, then the DIY section is appropriate. I might be wrong, but then I'm not a mod.

[Bigman80]

R&D for a manufacturer should probably go in the trader's section in trade impressions. That's where Jez from Arkless, Paul from RFC and others put their new developments.

If it's an individual DIY project, then the DIY section is appropriate. I might be wrong, but then I'm not a mod.
Good point Doc, maybe a mod can move it to the right area for me.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

Well, we're atill here in the Anaolgue Art section so i thought a little update was necessary.

So the contenders were (minus the winner, thats a secret ;D )

Random 0.72p polypropylene Cap

Random Polystyrene cap

Mundorf ZN Cap

Signal Path Cap

Mundorf Evo Cap

Random £1. 50 Polypropylene cap

Plus the winning cap.

I put around 30 hours of music through the various capacitors before listening tests. I used about 20 different tracks, some for only the odd note here and there. Overall i really enjoyed this. I had the Guitar & Piano at hand throughout and tried to find the nearest sounding option available. I have invested around 15 hour listening and testing each cap note for note and ended up having to buy a headphone amp to keep the wife happy lol.

The biggest surprise was how well the 0.72p cap sounded ! i actually preferred this to the Mundorf ZN ! It lacked a little refinement and sounded a touch raw but it did very well.

The finalists were the Signal Paths, Mundorf Evos (much better than the ZN's) and the overall winners, which i wont announce lol I'm now looking into ways to conceal the identity of them :D

Any way, as a first foray into testing i'd say doing it blindly is the real winner here.


So to conclude this little thread, The best names aren't always the best caps.

[Mr Kipling]

The finalists were the Signal Paths, Mundorf Evos (much better than the ZN's) and the overall winners, which i wont announce lol I'm now looking into ways to conceal the identity of them :D

Am I being more dense than usual here, in asking: Why? I don't quite understand the point of this.



Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

Am I being more dense than usual here, in asking: Why? I don't quite understand the point of this.



Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk



Well, its a bit like why manufacturers such as Ray Samuels remove the Opamp details from the top of the chip. They spend £££'s and hours listening and testing until they're happy with their choice and they aren't just going to give away their findings to everyone for free, because they're selling stuff. Same as the Capacitors. They are going into a product which will be for sale.

[walpurgis]

Am I being more dense than usual here

Best I don't answer that. ;)


Seriously though, capacitor comparisons have value. They can affect sonic characteristics.

Marco did an interesting series of similar tests with his passive pre-amp not long ago.

[Bigman80]

Best I don't answer that. ;)


Seriously though, capacitor comparisons have value. They can affect sonic characteristics.

Marco did an interesting series of similar tests with his passive pre-amp not long ago.

Oooh i shall look that up.

This has certainly opened my eyes to the value of comparisons of components. I felt some were better at getting out the way of the music while others were way too imposing. Thats what i found with the Zn's. They were too smooth and it sounded dull. The Signal Paths were excellent for a "live Sound" but didn't have the best Mid range in the end. The Mundorf Evos are the best of the rest in my opinion but i ended up putting about 40 hours through them before they got good. They would be a very good upgrade for most products and they are very inexpensive. The ones we had from HiFi collective were under £5 ex VAT for the pair i think.

Oh! The Mundorf Evos are in the Tron too. They are a very good choice.

[Mr Kipling]

Well, its a bit like why manufacturers such as Ray Samuels remove the Opamp details from the top of the chip. They spend £££'s and hours listening and testing until they're happy with their choice and they aren't just going to give away their findings to everyone for free, because they're selling stuff. Same as the Capacitors. They are going into a product which will be for sale.

WOW,,,

No sleep for me tonight, then.

But then you have individuals like: Nelson Pass, John Curl. Walt Jung, Joe Curcio - who freely share (and have done for decades) their knowledge.



Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

WOW,,,

No sleep for me tonight, then.

But then you have individuals like: Nelson Pass, John Curl. Walt Jung, Joe Curcio - who freely share (and have done for decades) their knowledge.



Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk

Why no sleep?

If you want to know how I came to my conclusion then ill happily share that knowledge with you

Im pretty sure, Apple, Samsung etc dont reveal their secrets. They tell you what their products do, not how they do it, parts they use etc.

Pretty standard approach really.





Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Why no sleep?

If you want to know how I came to my conclusion then ill happily share that knowledge with you

Im pretty sure, Apple, Samsung etc dont reveal their secrets. They tell you what their products do, not how they do it, parts they use etc.

Pretty standard approach really.

But a now a very outdated approach, that you do not have to put up with.

[Bigman80]

But a now a very outdated approach, that you do not have to put up with.
Im not sure its outdated.




Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Im not sure its outdated.

I am sure it is.

[Bigman80]

I am sure it is.
Care to give an example? I have offered one earlier in my posts.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Debian, and the 285 or so other operating systems http://distrowatch.com most, which you can
use, copy and share, are free to change to do what you want, and free to contribute to,
to improve. so vastly different to the don't's you explained in Post 23

The hardware is then the software, due to the kernel https://www.kernel.org/ being constantly updated
to reflect the hardware's features.

[RothwellAudio]

So the contenders were (minus the winner, thats a secret ;D )

Random 0.72p polypropylene Cap

Random Polystyrene cap

Mundorf ZN Cap

Signal Path Cap

Mundorf Evo Cap

Random £1. 50 Polypropylene cap

Plus the winning cap.
Without the circuit diagram and without knowing the values (capacitance and voltage) these tests are too vague to draw any broad conclusions from imho.


Im pretty sure, Apple, Samsung etc dont reveal their secrets. They tell you what their products do, not how they do it, parts they use etc.

Pretty standard approach really.
Yes, I don't see any reason why a commercial organisation shouldn't have secrets - seems perfectly normal to me.


But a now a very outdated approach, that you do not have to put up with.
People are free to share knowledge if they choose to. People are also free to keep the results of their research secrets if they choose to. The patent, copyright and trademark system is there to protect people's intellectual property and I don't see anything wrong with that.

[Bigman80]

Debian, and the 285 or so other operating systems http://distrowatch.com most, which you can
use, copy and share, are free to change to do what you want, and free to contribute to,
to improve. so vastly different to the don't's you explained in Post 23

The hardware is then the software, due to the kernel https://www.kernel.org/ being constantly updated
to reflect the hardware's features.
How about an example thats cost the researcher money rather than someone sitting there writing code? Opensource is one thing. Research is another.




Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Yes, I don't see any reason why a commercial organisation shouldn't have secrets - seems perfectly normal to me.
People are free to share knowledge if they choose to. People are also free to keep the results of their research secrets if they choose to. The patent, copyright and trademark system is there to protect people's intellectual property and I don't see anything wrong with that.

Yes but where software is concerned, they twist copyright to include at the sale point a licence agreement that contains clauses
that places the paying customer neatly with them as a product. Clauses which enable them to sell information about you.

As you cannot view the source code, let alone use the software, copy and help others, change the software to make
it do what you want, or contribute those changes to assist globally, it is now very much a redundant and useless platform.
But if you want to be a guinea pig for them, that is of course up to you. http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/

[Bigman80]

Without the circuit diagram and without knowing the values (capacitance and voltage) these tests are too vague to draw any broad conclusions from imho.

Yes, I don't see any reason why a commercial organisation shouldn't have secrets - seems perfectly normal to me.


People are free to share knowledge if they choose to. People are also free to keep the results of their research secrets if they choose to. The patent, copyright and trademark system is there to protect people's intellectual property and I don't see anything wrong with that.
Broad conclusions, no. I would say that in different applications or different positions in the circuit it would have a totally different effect but in this application, this was what I found.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

How about an example thats cost the researcher money rather than someone sitting there writing code? Opensource is one thing. Research is another.

Open source is different to Free Software definitions, open source is a half way attempt at Free Software
not quite in tune with everything that is possible.

You need to embrace that free software is a global community of like minded users, willing to
constantly improve code. Here for example are those working on Debian today. https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/
they are paid by Debian so Yes costing the researcher money., they do this up to a set number of hours per month.
Typically they achieve 190 hours of work contributed by 13-14 persons.

Now try and find who or how many people are working on proprietary software - hmmm very hidden and unavailable hey !

Debian is just one operating system. Have a look at Linux Mint, http://www.linuxmint.com and see what great work is being done
with 5 desktop versions, and you should fall off your chair looking at the work Mageia http://www.mageia.org who are ex
employees of Mandriva have done, to bring you Version 6. and many many others, hard at work trying to help you....and the world.

[Bigman80]

Open source is different to Free Software definitions, open source is a half way attempt at Free Software
not quite in tune with everything that is possible.

You need to embrace that free software is a global community of like minded users, willing to
constantly improve code. Here for example are those working on Debian today. https://raphaelhertzog.com/tag/Freexian+LTS/
they are paid by Debian so Yes costing the researcher money., they do thisup to a set number of hours per month.
Typically they achieve 190 hours of work contributed by 13-14 persons.

Now try and find who or how many people are working on proprietary software - hmmm very hidden and unavailable hey !

Debian is just one operating system. Have a look at Linux Mint, http;//www.linuxmint.com and see what great work is being done
with 5 desktop versions, and you should fall off your chair looking at the work Mageia http;//www.mageia.org who are ex
employees of Mandriva have done, to bring you Version 6. and many many others, hard at work trying to help you....and the world.
Im not going to pretend to be knowledgeable in this area as software, freeware etc because im not. What I am aware of is that they WILL be getting paid somewhere down the line. Nothing is free in any walk of life. Debian will be getting money somewhere.

From their website

"Debian does not make any money from the sale of CDs. At the same time, money is needed to pay for expenses such as domain registration and hardware. Thus, we ask that you buy from one of the*CD vendors*that*donates*a portion of your purchase to Debian"


My point was - show me a manufacturer of audio goods that freely gives away the trade secrets of the products they are currently developing. I cant find any.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Mr Kipling]

Sorry Oliver. But I still don't get it. You compare 7 capacitors and come up with a "winner", but don't wish to identity it. Simple question: Why? What do you think revealing it's identity will result in? Is the DIY section here going to rush out on mass buying said item causing it's price to rocket putting it out of reach for the intended use in a Fireybum (Oops. Sorry. Wrong forum) commercial product? A Bruce Springsteen-ism comes to mind: "A big - So What?"

I'll say it again: what about the likes of Nelson Pass, John Curl. Walt Jung and Joe Curcio - and others - who freely share their knowledge. Go and search Walt Jung. Back in the late 70s/early80s he and Richard Marsh did an exhaustive comparison test both objectively and subjectively of capacitors (and op-amps). Their work is now a reference for anyone interested in the subject. I think it's fair to say if it wasn't for Walt Jung your comparison would never have been considered. This is worth a read:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

Sorry Oliver. I just thought it was an odd conclusion. On the one hand you don't want to identity your capacitor winner - and on the other you have the likes of Charles from SS-Audio giving free samples of devices for people to try:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170525/48c137fa7d1ce3dea6a2cd7badfb7679.jpg

You mention the likes of Apple and Samsung. What about Volvo? What about the time and money they spent on research into preventing death and injury to car occupants from accidents which lead to the seat belt (and other safety design features incorporated in car designs). They could have patented the seat belt, for commercial gain. Instead, though, they gave it to the car industry for universal use, in order to save lives.

No. I didn't loose any sleep last night (wondering what your capacitor might be. And would it really be that difficult to disguise it? And again, to what end?)

Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

My point was - show me a manufacturer of audio goods that freely gives away the trade secrets of the products they are currently developing. I cant find any.

Yes, back in the 1970s and 1980s there were many electronics magazines which published circuits and discussions on audio designs and the contributors were willing to share their knowledge, but when Quad came up with the "current dumping" idea they protected it with a patent. As a commercial outfit I don't have a problem with them keeping their ideas to themselves.

[RothwellAudio]

Sorry Oliver. But I still don't get it. You compare 7 capacitors and come up with a "winner", but don't wish to identity it. Simple question: Why? What do you think revealing it's identity will result in? Is the DIY section here going to rush out on mass buying said item causing it's price to rocket putting it out of reach for the intended use in a Fireybum (Oops. Sorry. Wrong forum) commercial product? A Bruce Springsteen-ism comes to mind: "A big - So What?"
Yes, I tend to agree with this sentiment, too. It's ok to do research and keep it to yourself for commercial reasons but forums are all about sharing, so it seems odd to talk about your research on a forum but keep the details secret.

Go and search Walt Jung. Back in the late 70s/early80s he and Richard Marsh did an exhaustive comparison test both objectively and subjectively of capacitors (and op-amps). Their work is now a reference for anyone interested in the subject. I think it's fair to say if it wasn't for Walt Jung your comparison would never have been considered. This is worth a read:
http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm
I read that many years ago - brings back memories! :) The internet was way off in the future and I used the inter-library lending service to track down a copy of the magazine and photocopy it. Audiophiles had to be made of sterner stuff in those days :D

[Bigman80]

It seems quite evident that this has touched a nerve with you Mr Kipling.

Yes forums are about sharing and if this wasn't going into a "product" and I had done it for personal satisfaction then id have shared it but as it isnt I am not going to.

It has nothing to do with pushing prices up etc and that's a little cynical to be honest.

Im sure we can both sit here and pull examples of sharing and not sharing off Google till our hearts are content, but to what end.

Not sure what Walt Jung has to do with my listening room comparison but ok.

Anyway, the sun's shining. Why not be happy instead?




Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Yes, back in the 1970s and 1980s there were many electronics magazines which published circuits and discussions on audio designs and the contributors were willing to share their knowledge, but when Quad came up with the "current dumping" idea they protected it with a patent. As a commercial outfit I don't have a problem with them keeping their ideas to themselves.

But Quad published the schematics for almost all of their amplifiers, except the most recent, so they were not exactly keeping it to themselves.
A patent gives rights in the countries that it is registered in. Those patents also require a team of lawyers to maintain and protect from others directly copying.

As time progresses, I think Creative Commons will become the sensible approach for electronics manufacturers to take. https://creativecommons.org/
Rather than the complicated path of registering patents in every country of sale, then to find your idea going over the border- so to speak.

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, I tend to agree with this sentiment, too. It's ok to do research and keep it to yourself for commercial reasons but forums are all about sharing, so it seems odd to talk about your research on a forum but keep the details secret.

I read that many years ago - brings back memories! :) The internet was way off in the future and I used the inter-library lending service to track down a copy of the magazine and photocopy it. Audiophiles had to be made of sterner stuff in those days :D

Indeed. I well recall photocopying about 30 issues of Audio Amateur... every page!

[RothwellAudio]

Not sure what Walt Jung has to do with my listening room comparison but ok.
Walt Jung was one of the first people to claim that capacitors affected sound quality and was one of the first to undertake some research (as far as I'm aware).


Indeed. I well recall photocopying about 30 issues of Audio Amateur... every page!
That's dedication!

[Bigman80]

Ah, I see. Well seeing as he was a pioneer (and correct),'I doff my cap.


Cant fault his thirst for knowledge!!!


Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Others include Ben Duncan publishing in Hi Fi news and Record Review,
who could forget the famous bath tub curve ! and Cyril Bateman
https://linearaudio.nl/cyril-batemans-capacitor-sound-articles

[Arkless Electronics]

Walt Jung was one of the first people to claim that capacitors affected sound quality and was one of the first to undertake some research (as far as I'm aware).


That's dedication!

I can beat that! As a child/teenager I read pretty much every book on electronics in every library within 10 miles or so and all by push bike, walking or bus.

[Mr Kipling]

No Oliver. Didn't touch a nerve. I just read the thread last night and thought a bit of a strange way to conclude. Personally, doesn't bother me in the least.

Sorry if my humour was perceived as cynicism. It's what I love about forums: the way comments can be perceived totally different to that intended.

Don't need to pull stuff off Google, Oliver. It's just what I have in my head. Go and read The Audio Amateur Jez mentioned, if it's on-line.

Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk

[RothwellAudio]

I can beat that! As a child/teenager I read pretty much every book on electronics in every library within 10 miles or so and all by push bike, walking or bus.

Try telling that to kids today... :D

[Arkless Electronics]

Try telling that to kids today... :D

Tha' don't believe yer...

[Bigman80]

No Oliver. Didn't touch a nerve. I just read the thread last night and thought a bit of a strange way to conclude. Personally, doesn't bother me in the least.

Sorry if my humour was perceived as cynicism. It's what I love about forums: the way comments can be perceived totally different to that intended.

Don't need to pull stuff off Google, Oliver. It's just what I have in my head. Go and read The Audio Amateur Jez mentioned, if it's on-line.

Sent from my CUBOT_NOTE_S using Tapatalk
There definitely context missing in the written form! I will definitely do some reading on the subject.

I do see it's a bit of an odd way to conclude the findings and there definitely is a lack of technical info. I dont have that much technical nous but my ears are good so everything is done and judged by ear.

I think I should have thought about how it would end before starting it. Maybe a "audible differences in capacitors" thread would have been a better thread.

No harm no foul.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

What's happened to the superdooper Firebottle phono stage capacitor evaluation, gone up in smoke?

[Bigman80]

What's happened to the superdooper Firebottle phono stage capacitor evaluation, gone up in smoke?
Not at all Jimbo!. Its still on-going. Trouble we've had is that the Op amps aren't performing in the way one would expect so basically a redesigning of the circuit is taking place.

As far as Capacitors go, Alan is looking to try and create a circuit that removes them altogether,

The lack of news is my fault! Ive been on holiday and preoccupied at work.



Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

I will add that Burson and Sparkylabs have kindly sent us some discrete opamps to try in the new circuit so you can expect a write up about how they fare!!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

What issues are you having with the op amps-noisy?

Good to hear the project is still ongoing.:)

[Bigman80]

What issues are you having with the op amps-noisy?

Good to hear the project is still ongoing.:)
Yes mate, cant use the discrete op ams in the first stage (Gain) due to noise but there is another issue with the offeset voltage (?) And something to do with rails. Alan has identified the issues and has a way around it but that involves redesigning the circuit. The hope was that the PCB freely available could be manipulated into doing what we want but its proving to be difficult.

What we have found from testing and listening (no science yet) is that the MK2 prototype was blacker than black when we used the opamp that came with the board. This was used solely for gain and that was very encouraging.

I honestly believe that​ when the wrinkles have been ironed out, this will outperform a lot of contenders. Trouble is, it needs to get there first!

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[montesquieu]

Ahem keen to hear more about that Nighthawk, all that adjustability is right up my street, I must look out for one to have a play with :D

[Bigman80]

Ahem keen to hear more about that Nighthawk, all that adjustability is right up my street, I must look out for one to have a play with :D
There was one on ebay very recently at about £500(?) I really liked it but to me it sounded a bit compressed to my ears. Pitch black background though which is admirable. And the build quality was quite superb.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Firebottle]

The Nighthawk is a very elegant design, no coupling capacitors in line although here is one electrolytic in the feedback network, so will have some (probably small) influence on the sound.
I think the biggest drawback is that it uses feedback RIAA equalisation, which in most people's opinion, that have heard the difference, results in a slightly compressed or 'sat on' type of sound delivery.

The one overriding quality is that it is VERY quiet :thumbsup:

[Bigman80]

The Nighthawk is a very elegant design, no coupling capacitors in line although here is one electrolytic in the feedback network, so will have some (probably small) influence on the sound.
I think the biggest drawback is that it uses feedback RIAA equalisation, which in most people's opinion, that have heard the difference, results in a slightly compressed or 'sat on' type of sound delivery.

The one overriding quality is that it is VERY quiet [emoji106]

I'm not sure I would buy one though. The idea in principle of having all the options available on the front panel is very useful. It didnt offer the space and sparkle of the other phono stages we listened to.

It did sound "sat on" thats a very good description.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Bigman80]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132225828599

Click the link, Tom 😉👍

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132225828599

Click the link, Tom ����

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

He prefers it to the EAR 834P. Not surprised, the 834P is nothing marvellous.

[Bigman80]

Ive not heard one in all fairness. I dont think £580 is a great price either, although they can go for more. Its hype. its called the "Giant Killer" All I will say is it got murdered in the blind test by the OTP.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

I'd sooner have this: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51263-FS-Graham-Slee-Era-V-Gold-phono-stage-and-PSU1

Not much around to touch it for the money. I should know. It used to be mine. Really musical device.

[Bigman80]

I'd sooner have this: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51263-FS-Graham-Slee-Era-V-Gold-phono-stage-and-PSU1

Not much around to touch it for the money. I should know. It used to be mine. Really musical device.
I did consider picking that up to try against the OTP but seeing as how the MK2 is in development, I thought id wait and see how that turns out. It should be very good.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[montesquieu]

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/132225828599

Click the link, Tom ����

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Interesting but for all I'm reading I'm not sure I'd spring £500 on one.

I actually agree on the Slee Era V, I had one too years ago and I really rate it.

I must hear the OTP though at some point.