View Full Version : Preaching
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 17:04
Marco and I do not have the right to express our views like everyone else on all things hi-fi as this is tantamount on our part to preaching.
Discuss.
There seems to me to be a blurring of lines between your & Marco's opinions (which of course you have a right to express) and the AoS 'ethos' which should IMO represent more than the views of two people.
It also seems that a challenge to your & Marco's opinions (which surely should be allowed) is sometimes treated by you as a challenge to AoS.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 19:34
It's more the other way round Joe. People are crying foul when we express our opinions and make this an issue of AOS.
The Grand Wazoo
17-01-2010, 19:38
Steve,
I really hope no-one falls out or leaves AoS over all of this.
Re. your exasperaton at having to justify your statements on your own forum - I think I speak for everyone here if I say of course everyone expects you to be able to say whatever you like, and, moreover, we are all thankful to you and Marco for allowing us to use this place to express ourselves too.
But just a few discussions lately have developed into what could be interpreted as a Bush-style 'either you're with us or you're against us' stance. The inferrence being something along the lines of: '.....and if you're against us, then what the hell are you doing here?'
Whether this is the intention or not, this is how things look to my eyes & I'm sure others have been put off a little too by these developments.
Rare Bird
17-01-2010, 19:52
I'll keep out of this cos i'm really not the rebellious type
:sofa:
Steve,
I really hope no-one falls out or leaves AoS over all of this.
Re. your exasperaton at having to justify your statements on your own forum - I think I speak for everyone here if I say of course everyone expects you to be able to say whatever you like, and, moreover, we are all thankful to you and Marco for allowing us to use this place to express ourselves too.
But just a few discussions lately have developed into what could be interpreted as a Bush-style 'either you're with us or you're against us' stance. The inferrence being something along the lines of: '.....and if you're against us, then what the hell are you doing here?'
Whether this is the intention or not, this is how things look to my eyes & I'm sure others have been put off a little too by these developments.
Hmmm my mind thinks in a simular way, "don't rock the boat baby" or else
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 23:06
It's the 'navel gazing,' as Joe aptly calls it that rocks the boat not expressing a difference of opinion on the subject of hi-fi or music.
I'm a bit fed up of every thread started by myself or Marco turning into an issue of the forum. For the time being all misgivings about our role on AOS should be vented here and if posted elsewhere may be moved here if not deleted.
Steve,
I really hope no-one falls out or leaves AoS over all of this.
Re. your exasperaton at having to justify your statements on your own forum - I think I speak for everyone here if I say of course everyone expects you to be able to say whatever you like, and, moreover, we are all thankful to you and Marco for allowing us to use this place to express ourselves too.
+1
But just a few discussions lately have developed into what could be interpreted as a Bush-style 'either you're with us or you're against us' stance. The inferrence being something along the lines of: '.....and if you're against us, then what the hell are you doing here?'
Whether this is the intention or not, this is how things look to my eyes & I'm sure others have been put off a little too by these developments.
I agree on that.
Though, as my English is not perfect, every time I see such a subject arise (SPPV, Flat Earth, whatever) I toggle between "what are they after ?" and "who are they after ?"...
As it's hard for me to decide which one is true, I settle in a wait-and-see attitude. :scratch:
Not very convenient. :(
Of course you guys can express opinions like everyone else, but there can be a tendancy (or, bacause you are Moderators an IMPRESSION of) pointing out peoples "error of their ways" with their opinions, even going so far as to point out how the AOS ethos negates their views..
What makes a forum is the people. Hell, the forum IS the people, and with so many different folk with different views it's going to be difficult to steer it in one particular direction IMHO.
The forum is an organic beast, it changes and adapts.
Narrowing the focus of it it (what some would argue apparently) in an overly heavy handed way can give the impression of being overly controlling, especially if the perception is that it's coming from the top down.
Just saying guys, it can be offputting for some.
I take on board Marco and Steve your views about stating YOUR different opinion rather than just disagreeing with someone elses, but if you just going to be shown the "error of your ways".....some may be saying Whats the point really?
Just my £0.02 worth.
AOS is unique in that it's not bland, generic and "safe" and this is a GOOD thing, but temper it with a more considered view of the bigger picture I'd say.
Perhaps a lighter touch is required?
Gaz.
For me, the issue has been that threads are started which seem to come out of the blue and are percieved, by me, to be antagonistic/defensive from the start. This may just be my perception, but I'm not trying to talk for anyone other than me.
I can see (sometimes) what the underlying point is. Sometimes I think it's just a case of thoughts/intentions being badly expressed. Other times I think threads have been created which are unnecessary and would only ever lead to trouble (I'm thinking particularly of the thread which was a response to comments made on another forum).
And sometimes, it does come across that Steve and Marco are laying down the law. The arguments are strong, but they come across as "our way is right and if you disagree then you are wrong and maybe you shouldn't be here." That's my perception of some of the recent threads and the discussions that have been contained within them (and, no, right now I don't have time to find specific examples. Sorry.)
So, I'm rambling a bit. But, to sum up, some recent threads have been started with only a limited explanation of why the thread exists. This creates for me the sense that positions are being defended or justified without any particular reason as to why this should be. This is because the ethos of this forum is very clear. It's laid out fairly well in a thread about the Ethos of AOS, and it comes across consistently in discussions in other threads. To me it is clear what the ethos of AOS is. So, when a thread is started trying to explain it or just state it again, I wonder why this should be. Add to this the sometimes bald phrasing of a question or a statement and it all begins to look confrontational and slightly paranoid, in my opinion.
I would suggest as a way forward that if other sites are being less than complimentary about AOS then they should be ignored or dealt with on the other site.
If the ethos is being tested and expanded, then perhaps a bit more explanation as to why this is should be given.
My over-riding impression at the moment is of slightly paranoid forum owners who are trying to do something good but failing to communicate that good properly. It takes a long time and a lot of argument to actually get to the point sometimes.
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 10:59
My over-riding impression at the moment is of slightly paranoid forum owners who are trying to do something good but failing to communicate that good properly. It takes a long time and a lot of argument to actually get to the point sometimes.
Hi Symon :)
Imho that is I think the nub of all this. Both Steve and Marco are passionate about audio and their particular ideas on it. I think the problem as always is the weakness of typed communications, and this has led to the wrong impression. Both posters are very articulate in what they type, but still it has come across wrongly imho :doh: You are right however in saying that there is a greater good in what they have been trying to say.
Regards D S D L:)
Two people start a Hi-fi Forum because they are passionate about their hobby and because they have found that the already existing forums are not for them. They do this at their own expense and with a fair amount of time and effort put in.
They want their forum to have a distinct identity therefore they make posts on 'ethos' 'SPPV' etc. in order to create this distinct identity. How anyone can have a 'problem' with this I really fail to see.
Even if I did not agree with what has been posted vis ethos and SPPV it would not be cause for me to chuck my toys out of the pram - if some topics on the forum bore me I can always go elsewhere or post on a different and unconnected thread.
I recall a jolly evening a couple of months back when several of us were posting about the TV shows we watched as kids. Very entertaining and nothing whatsoever to do with hi-fi yet I see no problem with more serious threads on hi-fi 'philosophy' co-existing with this. This is supposed to be a site for 'serious' enthusiasts, is it not? If you are happy with your Goodmans midi system and just want to talk about the footie fair enough but don't have a pop at those who wish to debate more contentious issues, especially when it is their forum.
And that last bit is not aimed at anyone specifically so please no-one take it personally. You all seem like decent blokes and I respect your opinions and experience and I continue to enjoy your 'virtual' company.
Regards
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 12:29
Two people start a Hi-fi Forum because they are passionate about their hobby and because they have found that the already existing forums are not for them. They do this at their own expense and with a fair amount of time and effort put in.
They want their forum to have a distinct identity therefore they make posts on 'ethos' 'SPPV' etc. in order to create this distinct identity. How anyone can have a 'problem' with this I really fail to see.
Even if I did not agree with what has been posted vis ethos and SPPV it would not be cause for me to chuck my toys out of the pram - if some topics on the forum bore me I can always go elsewhere or post on a different and unconnected thread.
I recall a jolly evening a couple of months back when several of us were posting about the TV shows we watched as kids. Very entertaining and nothing whatsoever to do with hi-fi yet I see no problem with more serious threads on hi-fi 'philosophy' co-existing with this. This is supposed to be a site for 'serious' enthusiasts, is it not? If you are happy with your Goodmans midi system and just want to talk about the footie fair enough but don't have a pop at those who wish to debate more contentious issues, especially when it is their forum.
And that last bit is not aimed at anyone specifically so please no-one take it personally. You all seem like decent blokes and I respect your opinions and experience and I continue to enjoy your 'virtual' company.
Regards
I agree with you totally. I enjoyed that TV thread a lot myself too.
Regards D S D L
If you are happy with your Goodmans midi system and just want to talk about the footie fair enough but don't have a pop at those who wish to debate more contentious issues, especially when it is their forum.
Regards
Isn't it EVERYONES forum? :scratch:
Isn't it EVERYONES forum? :scratch:
Steve owns it, so in that sense it's 'his' forum, but we all contribute to it, so in that sense it's 'our' forum (but we don't get to ban people).
I would add that the one thread that caused me the most grief was the 'flat earth' one. There it did seem that people who expressed confusion or dissent were 'slapped down' and told they were being thick for not grasping what was being said.
Maybe some of the more 'generalist' type posts could go in the 'Ethos' section, rather than in 'Blank Canvas'? That would keep the philosophical stuff out of the way of the equipment discussions.
Rare Bird
18-01-2010, 14:32
Best advice is to keep out of bullshit agenda topics.. what i'm doing from now anyway hence i'm not putting my 2p worth in
Isn't it EVERYONES forum? :scratch:
Only to the extent that it is a 'forum' and as such exists to enable an exchange of views to occur. If there is no-one at the forum nothing will be discussed and it will 'cease to be'.
My point is that I can post on, say, the Daily Telegraph site if I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Barclay Brothers own the newspaper and that the tone of the paper will reflect, to a greater or lesser extent, their own particular outlook.
Haselsh1
18-01-2010, 14:46
Hmmm... is this not a Hi-Fi discussion forum...??? Are forums not places for like minded people to get together in the virtual PC world and have open discussions...?? Let's face facts, we all live throughout the World and cannot just pop down to the pub for a chat and a beer even though I would dearly love to with a few of you so we have this forum. As a part of this forum we must have a common interest and ethos. On this forum as in life there are leaders and followers and the people who set up this forum did it for a reason. They should lead by example.
Only to the extent that it is a 'forum' and as such exists to enable an exchange of views to occur. If there is no-one at the forum nothing will be discussed and it will 'cease to be'.
My point is that I can post on, say, the Daily Telegraph site if I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Barclay Brothers own the newspaper and that the tone of the paper will reflect, to a greater or lesser extent, their own particular outlook.
Yebbut the Barclay Brothers pay their contributors!
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 14:56
Yebbut the Barclay Brothers pay their contributors!
AOS is not a commercial site.
The Google adds pay for the up keep of the host..thats it.
If you contribute to a forum, its to learn, exchange knowledge, buy and exchange kit and have fun. It is at the end of the day a voluntary activity and as Shaun said very correctly above...
Are forums not places for like minded people to get together in the virtual PC world and have open discussions...?? Let's face facts, we all live throughout the World and cannot just pop down to the pub for a chat and a beer even though I would dearly love to with a few of you so we have this forum. As a part of this forum we must have a common interest and ethos..
Were I live there are not so many audio enthusiasts and certainly no shows/bake offs etc so AOS and a few other forums allow me to do exactly what Shaun said...and its mostly fun too.
Regards D S D L
Only to the extent that it is a 'forum' and as such exists to enable an exchange of views to occur. If there is no-one at the forum nothing will be discussed and it will 'cease to be'.
and isn't THAT point the predominant point being made here...?
My point is that I can post on, say, the Daily Telegraph site if I want, but that doesn't change the fact that the Barclay Brothers own the newspaper and that the tone of the paper will reflect, to a greater or lesser extent, their own particular outlook.
I get that (of course), but the question could be "Is that right?"
Thats all from me on this, I'm going with Andre on this one.
I think we are getting far from the initial subject, no ?
Marco and I do not have the right to express our views like everyone else on all things hi-fi as this is tantamount on our part to preaching.
Discuss.
I think we are getting far from the initial subject, no ?
Fair enough. In that case, I will shift the focus of my point slightly.
Of course Steve and Marco can express their opinion and it is not preaching.
But... if you express that point endlessly, make threads specifically to express those points again and again, then, yes, you could be accused of preaching.
I think this is what confuses me at the moment. The Ethos of AOS is clear, and referred to at every relevant opportunity (which is a good thing). So why make new threads purely to discuss the Ethos? Maybe it's just me in this respect, as I do understand/am aware of what is trying to be achieved on this forum and I don't understand why extra threads are required to explain something I think I understand (or am at least aware of).
We know how passionate you both are about this forum and its Ethos, but starting a post that goes on and on about your views on it just winds people up and they start thinking here we go again whats the point of another dare i say preaching type thread then
I'm not here to take digs at you Steve or Marco, i don't have a problem with the way things are run you can write what you like, thats your perogative, But, some of the thread starters are a bit contentious and needless in my opinion as i have pretty much well said in the past.
Friendly banter is what it all should be about, with all of us either helping others and passing on our own experiences or learning from others:)
I thoroughly enjoy my time spent on here and hope to do so in the future, i hope to attend the show in March, it will be nice to put a face to those names, i much prefer face to face conflabs and not conflicts;)
As a seperate point can you add a spell checker as you can see i do struggle a bit at times:)
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 18:26
I thoroughly enjoy my time spent on here and hope to do so in the future, i hope to attend the show in March, it will be nice to put a face to those names, i much prefer face to face conflabs and not conflicts;)
As a seperate point can you add a spell checker as you can see i do struggle a bit at times:)
Thats a great idea...if the software allows it. I will ask as I don't know.
Regards D S D L
Depending on the browser, spell check can be used anyway (in my case I use Chrome now, used to be Firefox, both can have spell check installed - try googling it and you should be ok. If anyone needs help I'll do a "how to" if necessary.)
As a seperate point can you add a spell checker as you can see i do struggle a bit at times:)
Try this, Jon...
http://www.iespell.com/
There's a few others around here who could do with it, too! :rolleyes:
Spectral Morn
18-01-2010, 18:53
Try this, Jon...
http://www.iespell.com/
There's a few other around here who could do with it, too! :rolleyes:
Nice one Mike...:)
Regards D S D L
steveinspain
18-01-2010, 20:39
I am not clever enough to put a point over succinctly enough for it to be understood as intended, and my internet access is so limited that I find it hard to follow threads especially when there are heated debates, but when things do get hot, I just withdraw.
I don't post much, but do read (and try to learn) whatever I can, and have gleaned plenty, but surely the pleasure of music ought to be one of the main focal points.
I want friendly banter and education from a forum - I am not qualified to give advice, but will offer my opinion at times if I feel my experience might help. I do not want to be part of a fight - life is tough enough without my place of escape becoming a battlefield too.
Not sure if this offers anything constructive to this thread, but I will say that the offers of help I have had by PM on this forum are wonderful, so clearly the good guys are here, even if not posting much..
One quick point of clarification, as I'm just in....
Steve owns it, so in that sense it's 'his' forum
Hi Joe,
Steve and I own everything connected with AoS 50/50 (it's not all Steve's), but yes, it is 'everyone's forum' in the sense that a forum is NOTHING without its members.
I'll reply to all other posts/threads later :cool:
Marco.
I use ieSpell and the plugin appears in the toolbar immediately above where I'm typing (if I can remember to use it..) make sure the dictionary is set to UK English..
bonneville
18-01-2010, 22:11
I am not clever enough to put a point over succinctly enough for it to be understood as intended, and my internet access is so limited that I find it hard to follow threads especially when there are heated debates, but when things do get hot, I just withdraw.
I don't post much, but do read (and try to learn) whatever I can, and have gleaned plenty, but surely the pleasure of music ought to be one of the main focal points.
I want friendly banter and education from a forum - I am not qualified to give advice, but will offer my opinion at times if I feel my experience might help. I do not want to be part of a fight - life is tough enough without my place of escape becoming a battlefield too.
Not sure if this offers anything constructive to this thread, but I will say that the offers of help I have had by PM on this forum are wonderful, so clearly the good guys are here, even if not posting much..
I agree,I am too old for aggro.
I use ieSpell and the plugin appears in the toolbar immediately above where I'm typing (if I can remember to use it..) make sure the dictionary is set to UK English..
Like this....
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/1006/98613355.jpg
aquapiranha
18-01-2010, 23:54
Have I missed something???
Nice to have you back Steve
What does the new system sound like can we have some pictures
jandl100
19-01-2010, 09:23
Quote:
Are forums not places for like minded people to get together in the virtual PC world and have open discussions...??
.
__
That sounds sensible, but I guess that I would ask how "like minded" we need to be.
Some forums have a definite overall leaning - pfm for Naim-freaks for example. Personally, I am very uncomfortable there and post almost nothing. Any views I had would likely be contrary to the apparent forum ethos and the views of most of its members.
For AoS, is a shared love of music and its playback technology sufficient? - or would Steve and Marco prefer us all to be "re-invented flat earthers" like they are? ... or at least on the road to being converted to that ethos?
================================================== ================================================
As a rider to the above, I find the AOS Ethos "Nailing our colours to the mast" thread interesting .... Steve, presumably supported by Marco, wrote:
Nailing our colours to the mast
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is essentially a Flat Earth subjectivist forum where we trust our ears in pursuit of recorded music reproduction that gets the feet tapping and/or the hairs rising on the back of your neck and plants a big grin on your face.
If your hi-fi doesn't do that it's broken.
I find that quite an interesting and also a somewhat empty statement. What it says to me is that you should enjoy your music played back on your hifi system. Ummm, yeah, OK .... that really is a statement of the bleeding obvious (to paraphrase Basil Fawlty).
It is surely the ethos of any hifi forum. Or am I missing something here?
I think the only implication I can see beyond enjoying your music is that you shouldn't place reliance on objective technical measurements ..... is that what it all comes down to?
I'm genuinely curious here. :)
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 10:04
Or am I missing something here?
Yes.
jandl100
19-01-2010, 10:36
Damn. I thought so.
Ah well, I guess some you lose, some you win. :)
Being a clergyman I am supposed to know something about preaching: speaking from faith unto faith. But I do not want to get into any theological or philosophical discussions.
In view of recent rumbles I have, for the first time read the Ethos.
My view?
All is well till post #4 of Ethos when content moves from board etiquette into an attempt to describe a board orthodoxy. That is regrettable.
In my opinion all posts after 4 and those on "Colours to the mast" should be moved out of "Ethos". Those views are legitimate, as are the contrary views, and should be openly discussed politely as described in Ethos 1-4.
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 14:36
I'm not here to take digs at you Steve or Marco, i don't have a problem with the way things are run you can write what you like, thats your perogative, But, some of the thread starters are a bit contentious and needless in my opinion as i have pretty much well said in the past.
Much of what we write is deliberately intended to be thought-provoking. We do like to scratch below the surface from time to time. Some of the notions we introduce may be a little unsettling for some but I make no apologies for this. Members can either involve themselves in the ensuing discussion or not as they see fit. What is unacceptable is deflection away from the issue in hand towards making the forum itself or even us as individuals as an issue.
Friendly banter is what it all should be about, with all of us either helping others and passing on our own experiences or learning from others:)
Indeed but creating the friendly atmosphere was intended to engender the right kind of atmosphere to dig deeper during discussions with debates perhaps becoming quite heated. This is not only fine, it's bloody fantastic as long as players in the debate play the ball and not the man. We like to provoke thought and could do without the backlash and bringing into question how the forum is run and telling us what we can write, or rather can't.
It's become quite fashionable here in the last couple of weeks to quote parts of our ethos. Such is the nature off selective quoting that this part has so far been missed:
We aim for this forum to be relaxed, easy-going backdrop for stimulating and informative discussions to take place. The forum will thus be managed with this objective in mind.
Friendly banter is great - it passes the time of day but let us not be superficial all of the time.
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 14:48
In my opinion all posts after 4 and those on "Colours to the mast" should be moved out of "Ethos". Those views are legitimate, as are the contrary views, and should be openly discussed politely as described in Ethos 1-4.
They stay in the ethos because the board orthodoxy is an important element to this forum's identity. Perhaps our approach is more restrictive as it is distinctive but it is the identity, love it or loathe it that has made this forum a success so far. There are a lot of frums competing for people's time. By being just like all the other forums and trying to be a broad church, all things to all men, we would lose that identity, posting activity would dwindle and we would die. The name of our site pretty much sums up what we're about and to roughly quote the great Baroness Thatcher, we aren't for turning.
and that, I suspect, is that. :)
the great Baroness Thatcher...
Mmmmm... "Great" at what, I wonder? ;)
Marco.
Mmmmm... "Great" at what, I wonder? ;)
Marco.
Giving head?
now THERES a mental image.... :(
Mmmmm... "Great" at what, I wonder? ;)
Marco.
Being an unpopular arsehole?
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 16:58
She won three general elections elections and divided opinion. I call that a great success. We need another Prime Minister like her to save this country from bankruptcy. That's just my opinion though.
Spectral Morn
19-01-2010, 17:05
She won three general elections elections and divided opinion. I call that a great success. We need another Prime Minister like her to save this country from bankruptcy. That's just my opinion though.
She was a better prime minister than Blair or Brown imho...though as always not perfect, she was good for business unlike New Labour imho.
Regards D S D L
Good prime minister?.... there's no such thing! :D
Giving head?
:lol:
Great at......... 'Setting fire to'......erm.....she's........'A great advert for Tena Lady'....erm..... 'A great patron saint for miners'.... 'A great incendiary device for a bonfire'......
Etc...
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
19-01-2010, 18:59
As the Bonzo's said (but not quite like this):
EeLndLGqLvs
Mike Reed
19-01-2010, 19:40
She won three general elections and divided opinion. I call that a great success. We need another Prime Minister like her to save this country from bankruptcy.
D'accord. She was of her time, though, and probably wouldn't be anywhere near as effective nowadays.
She was not only unpopular but largely ineffectual until the Falklands War in '82. However, she then went on to emasculate the unions and this country has never looked back. Not sure how B.A. union UNITE survived (in essence) UNITE.....what a misnomer!!
Just dont mention teh Poll Tax to us Scots......
Tramp the dirt down...aye!
She won three general elections elections and divided opinion.
So did Harold Wilson.
As the Bonzo's said (but not quite like this):
EeLndLGqLvs
http://www.makemyvotecount.org.uk/bl...olitician.html
'They will all promise every man, woman and child in the country whatever he, she or it wants. They'll all being roving the land looking for chances to make the rich poor, to remedy the irremediable, to succor the unsuccorable, to unscramble the unscrambleable, to dephlogisticate the undephlogisticable. They will all be curing warts by saying words over them, and paying off the national debt with money that no one will have to earn. When one of them demonstrates that twice two is five, another will prove that it is six, six and a half, ten, twenty, n. In brief, they will divest themselves of their character as sensible, candid and truthful men, and become simply candidates for office, bent only on collaring votes. They will all know by then, even supposing that some of them don't know it now, that votes are collared under democracy, not by talking sense but by talking nonsense, and they will apply themselves to the job with a hearty yo-heave-ho. Most of them, before the uproar is over, will actually convince themselves. The winner will be whoever promises the most with the least probability of delivering anything.'
H L Mencken
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 20:06
The poll tax was tested in Scotland where it was a disaster before being rolled out in England and Wales where it was also a disaster and ultimately cost her her premiership, that and division over Europe. I guess she chose Scotland as a testing ground because they never voted for her there anyway. It wasn't as though she was going to lose any friends.
The Grand Wazoo
19-01-2010, 20:09
Just dont mention teh Poll Tax to us Scots......
Tramp the dirt down...aye!
Hehehe......the early introduction of the Poll Tax in Scotland. That was all my fault, or it was according to more than a few Scots folk I worked with in Dumfriesshire at the the time. Being an Englishman in Scotland apparently made me personally responsible for Maggie's finest hour!
Wow. "Preaching" is the title of this thread. Who says religion and politics don't mix?
But we are well off track!
Religion and politics have always been inextricably intertwined. However, in the 19th century it became an unwritten rule that neither should be discussed at the dinner table.
The Grand Wazoo
19-01-2010, 20:34
In that case, this thread should be closed 'til I've finished eating.
Don't type with your mouth full!
I think we are getting far from the initial subject, no ?
Originally Posted by Thread introduction, by Steve Toy
Marco and I do not have the right to express our views like everyone else on all things hi-fi as this is tantamount on our part to preaching.
Discuss.
.
Don't type with your mouth full!
Apparently Maggie's meat & potato pie was second to none!
Marco.
:worthless:
Actually... I don't think the pics would make much difference! :lol:
The Vinyl Adventure
19-01-2010, 22:22
Funnily enough steve said to me the other day "three things you don't talk about down the pub - politics, religion and hifi"
hifi is the one thing out of those things I actually get moaned at for talking about ... Not coz of it being contrivercial mind... More for the fact most of my mates are sick of me going on about it!!
as for politics ...Just don't mention maggie round my hannah, she's a born and bred socialist - her gran works for (although is very disalusioned by) the labour party!
Beechwoods
20-01-2010, 06:27
I don't think you'll find many Socialists still in the Labour Party these days. Most were hounded out in the late-80's / early 90's!
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 06:54
Gordon Brown himself is very much a socialist. Apart from abandoning clause 4 of their manifesto it's still the same old tax, borrow, spend and bankrupt the nation, control and regulate everything Labour party of the seventies.
Beechwoods
20-01-2010, 07:10
Brown isn't driven by idealogy; he's a popularist, and a bad judge of public mood at that :)
jandl100
20-01-2010, 08:44
This thread seems to have drifted off just a tad from its original premise ... with huge sighs of relief all round, I suspect :eyebrows:.
But I'd kind of like to revive it as I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing as my toes very seldom tap ... although I have had toes tapped at me by a fookin' Linn dealer! :lol:
I find the AOS Ethos "Nailing our colours to the mast" thread interesting .... Steve, presumably supported by Marco, wrote:
[I]Nailing our colours to the mast
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is essentially a Flat Earth subjectivist forum where we trust our ears in pursuit of recorded music reproduction that gets the feet tapping and/or the hairs rising on the back of your neck and plants a big grin on your face.
If your hi-fi doesn't do that it's broken.
.... What it says to me is that you should enjoy your music played back on your hifi system. Ummm, yeah, OK .... that really is a statement of the bleeding obvious (to paraphrase Basil Fawlty).
It is surely the ethos of any hifi forum. Or am I missing something here?
To which Steve replied a brief but succinct 'yes' to the last bit that I have now highlighted in bold.
OK. So my toes don't tap. Does that mean that my hifi system is broken? I don't play air guitar hardly at all, either. But I do 'air conduct' to my classical choons quite a lot - it's a sad and embarassing sight! :eyebrows: And I can get very close to tears in the sad bits. And there is quite often a big grin on my face, or at least a happy smile, in response to the music and my system's rendition of it. Is that the same thing as flat earth-style toe-tapping?
Still genuinely curious here. :)
I think the toe-tapping is a red herring and an unnecessary harking-back to the days of Linn/Naim domination.
I'd say all the system-building stuff can be summed up as 'buy the best-sounding stuff* at the best price you can get, and enjoy the music'.
*best-sounding as defined by your own ears.
(I'm not sure why anyone would want to do anything different, but there you go).
I would add that the one thread that caused me the most grief was the 'flat earth' one
Yes, that's the one that really caused me to shake my head. On the whole, however, I find this forum both entertaining and informative and far better than any other hi-fi forum on the web, and Steve and Marco are to be congratulated for raising it to that level in such a short space of time.
*best-sounding as defined by your own ears.
But here we run into problems of "educated taste" and "informed opinion".
When my Father first heard "HiFi" in the late 60s he didn't like it. He didn't like it at all. He had been raised on acoustic and electric gramophones and AM radio which had almost no high frequency output - above 4KHz, or even 2KHz?
He found systems with better treble extremely harsh and preferred the "nice mellow tone" of a large wooden cased Wireless (Telegraphy Receiving Apparatus).
We all have expectations and learned tastes which may or may not be close to an "accurate" sound.
An experienced musical performer or a regular concert goer stands a better chance of knowing what an "accurate sound" is, because they have a reference; but even here the issue is clouded if the live performance is on instruments that produce sound through loudspeakers.
So where that gets us, I don't know.
What is, as Peter Walker of Quad put it, 'the closest approach to the original sound.'
To be honest, i'm not sure it matters.
Since 'accurate sound' is, as you point out, difficult to define, I'd prefer to listen to a sound I enjoyed rather than a sound that came nearer to someone else's idea of accuracy, but which I found unpleasant.
Yup, ideal sound for the individual is completely subjective.
....which neatly gets us back on track.
Can "musical enjoyment" really be shoehorned into one particular thing?
Honestly, having read the Ethos again, I think the intent behind the words is good, it's maybe the use of words (as Marco and others have mentoned before I think?) that's causing the problem.
Hifi is subjective.
It's good to have direction and focus in a Forum, but is there a danger of going down the PFM road of being just a bit TOO focussed, almost borderline flat earth?
Great forum guys, but in my opinion it's self defeating in the long term to encourage "cliqueness" which is what I see further down the line...
Don't be resistant to change...gotta adapt with the people, it's US that make the forum what is is. :)
It's good to have direction and focus in a Forum, but is there a danger of going down the PFM road of being just a bit TOO focussed, almost borderline flat earth?
Actually PFM (to me) seems to be unfocused; it's a very broad church forum these days, with some old skool flat earthers, some valve users, Tannoy fanbois and a growing number who are moving to computer-based audio. Subjectivists and tweakers squabble with objectivists. And the off-topic room has Thatcherites and Socialists squaring up. All good fun, but fairly Ethos-lite.
Hey Joe,
Yeah, but PFM wasn't always like that though, it changed over time to be more of the "broad church" that it is now.
at it's "best" it almost used to be non Naim, non valid to be honest.
Thinking about it now, PFM is a good example of a forum that adapted? ;)
was that a bit cheeky? :)
Hey Joe,
Yeah, but PFM wasn't always like that though, it changed over time to be more of the "broad church" that it is now.
at it's "best" it almost used to be non Naim, non valid to be honest.
Thinking about it now, PFM is a good example of a forum that adapted? ;)
was that a bit cheeky? :)
I thinks that's a fair description. Broad church forums have strengths (variety of views, wide range of listening experience to draw on) and weaknesses (lots of circular threads where those on different sides of an issue will never agree, or agree to differ).
I can see why Marco and Steve don't want AoS to be 'just another hifi forum'; the question is how to keep it focused without excluding valid alternative views.
anthonyTD
20-01-2010, 10:21
This thread seems to have drifted off just a tad from its original premise ... with huge sighs of relief all round, I suspect :eyebrows:.
But I'd kind of like to revive it as I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing as my toes very seldom tap ... although I have had toes tapped at me by a fookin' Linn dealer! :lol:
To which Steve replied a brief but succinct 'yes' to the last bit that I have now highlighted in bold.
OK. So my toes don't tap. Does that mean that my hifi system is broken? I don't play air guitar hardly at all, either. But I do 'air conduct' to my classical choons quite a lot - it's a sad and embarassing sight! :eyebrows: And I can get very close to tears in the sad bits. And there is quite often a big grin on my face, or at least a happy smile, in response to the music and my system's rendition of it. Is that the same thing as flat earth-style toe-tapping?
Still genuinely curious here. :)
hi jerry,
going by the description of the feelings your current system brings out in you i would say it is FAR FROM BROKEN, and would seem it does all the right things a music system should!:)
A...
was that a bit cheeky?
Not at all, Gary :)
pfm (lower case, as that's how Tony prefers it), is a very good forum and the only one, other than here, that I read regularly.
The content is generally educated and informative, and there is depth to the hi-fi and music discussions (I rarely read the off-topic stuff as I'm not into politics, and it can be quite politically-orientated there), but it's the depth to discussions that attracts me, as I find the hi-fi and music discussions on other forums rather 'lightweight', superficial and somewhat irreverent - that's just my particular view.
As for pfm being a 'broad church', I totally agree, and I'm sure that's just how Tony likes it! And let's not forget too that pfm's primary raison d'être these days is to facilitate Tony's record sales business......... This very fact alone makes pfm a different entity from any other UK-based audio and music forum, and I feel is largely why it has evolved into something quite different from what it started out as.
Hi-fi and music discussions on AoS are also similarly in-depth as on pfm, perhaps in the case of the former, even more so - and it is our passionate desire to get right into the nitty-gritty of contentious, controversial and often emotive subjects, challenging people's beliefs, exposing comfort zones, and perhaps making people think about things they hadn't previously considered, that motivates us to create the type of threads you guys are talking about here.
Rest assured that even when things don't appear to have gone to plan that, in reality, the opposite is often the case as we succeed in finding out what our members really think on a number of levels that wouldn't necessarily be revealed if discussions weren't quite as probing... Be under no illusions, guys: everything we do here is for a purpose, even if to you that purpose may sometimes seem unclear ;)
Marco.
jandl100
20-01-2010, 10:54
..... And let's not forget too that pfm's primary raison d'être these days is to facilitate Tony's record sales business......... This very fact alone makes pfm a different entity from any other UK-based audio and music forum, and I feel is mainly why it has evolved into something quite different from what it started out as.
>>>>>>
Rest assured that even when things don't appear to have gone to plan that, in reality, the opposite is often the case as we succeed in finding out what our members really think on a number of levels that wouldn't necessarily be revealed if discussions weren't quite as probing... Be under no illusions, guys: everything we do here is for a purpose, even if to you that purpose may sometimes seem unclear ;)
Marco.
Hmmm ... interesting! Hidden agendas! :eek:
So what are you gonna be selling, Marco? ;)
Mike Reed
20-01-2010, 10:57
Gordon Brown himself is very much a socialist. Apart from abandoning clause 4 of their manifesto it's still the same old tax, borrow, spend and bankrupt the nation, control and regulate everything Labour party of the seventies.
Well said, that man!
Does anybody know of a successful socialist state apart from the dubious example of Sweden? Don't mention China, which is an unfolding scenario and more of a wolf in sheep's clothing, IMO
Well said, that man!
Does anybody know of a successful socialist state apart from the dubious example of Sweden? Don't mention China, which is an unfolding scenario and more of a wolf in sheep's clothing, IMO
Depends on your definition of "successful". What are the "successful" non-socialist states, according to you ? ;)
Is Thailand a "successful" non-socialist state, for instance ?
Hmmm ... interesting! Hidden agendas! :eek:
So what are you gonna be selling, Marco? ;)
LOL... Sorry - you're way off-beam there, Jerry! I'm afraid that I can't say any more. However, let's be clear, AoS has no current or planned commercial agendas.
All I'd say is that next time when you see what you think is a 'weird' or 'pointless' thread, started by Steve or me, keep in mind that there will be a deliberate purpose behind it which perhaps may not be entirely obvious ;)
Marco.
Mike Reed
20-01-2010, 11:14
But I'd kind of like to revive it as I am genuinely curious as to what I am missing as my toes very seldom tap
OK. So my toes don't tap. Does that mean that my hifi system is broken? I don't play air guitar hardly at all, either. But I do 'air conduct' to my classical choons quite a lot - it's a sad and embarassing sight! :eyebrows: And I can get very close to tears in the sad bits. And there is quite often a big grin on my face, or at least a happy smile, in response to the music and my system's rendition of it. Is that the same thing as flat earth-style toe-tapping?
Still genuinely curious here. :)
Can't say my toes tap that much to Rachmaninov (to name but one), but I concur with Anthony that everything else seems to be gelling.
The word here is not toe-tapping, but EMOTIVE, surely. Having said that, my old Sony trannie can be emotive in the right circumstances.
Makes me question the phenominal outlay on audio kit sometimes, though!!!!!!
Great thread; thought it was a non-starter, but it has meandered its way across plains of diverse opinion and subject material.
jandl100
20-01-2010, 11:16
LOL... Sorry - you're way off-beam there, Jerry! I'm afraid that I can't say any more. However, let's be clear, AoS has no current or planned commercial agendas.
All I'd say is that next time when you see what you think is a 'weird' or 'pointless' thread, started by Steve or me, keep in mind that there will be a deliberate purpose behind it which more than likely will not be obvious ;)
Marco.
Well, it wouldn't be the first time I had put 2 and 2 together and came up with the square root of Pi!! :eyebrows: I was only kidding anyway. :)
I would, though, be interested in your reply to my post #70 on this thread. Maybe it comes down to how a classical choons fan fits into the foot-tapping flat earth ethos that you espouse .... anyway, I don't want to pre-empt your response(s) - I'd be interested in yours and Steve's thoughts on post #70. :cool:
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 11:17
Jerry, there are no hidden agendas but if things we say seem unclear, it will be for the following reasons:
1) We haven't explained ourselves properly. This should remedy itself as a given thread develops.
2) People are reading too quickly and not giving themselves sufficient time to consider and reflect upon what is being written, especially when we dare to scratch beneath the surface.
3) People are being (deliberately) obtuse.
We don't do hidden agendas. They are best left to the Labour Party ;)
jandl100
20-01-2010, 11:19
Whoops - I see that Steve and I posted at the same time.
Mike,
Great thread; thought it was a non-starter, but it has meandered its way across plains of diverse opinion and subject material.....
......which is what discussions on AoS are all about. Never forget it ;)
It's why thread drift here is often the best part of (otherwise) intended discussion topics!
Marco.
Jerry, there are no hidden agendas but if things we say seem unclear, it will be for the following reasons:
1) We haven't explained ourselves properly. This should remedy itself as a given thread develops.
2) People are reading too quickly and not giving themselves sufficient time to consider and reflect upon what is being written, especially when we dare to scratch beneath the surface.
3) People are being (deliberately) obtuse.
We don't do hidden agendas. They are best left to the Labour Party ;)
+
4) The reason given in the last paragraph of my post #80.
Marco.
I would, though, be interested in your reply to my post #70 on this thread. Maybe it comes down to how a classical choons fan fits into the foot-tapping flat earth ethos that you espouse ....
That's it in a nutshell, I think. Generally, your foot taps to music with a rhythmic beat - and unless I'm mistaken there's precious little of that occurring in classical music, hence why your tootsies largely remain 'unmoved' ;)
It'll likely have bugger all to do with your system failing or otherwise to convey the musical message.
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 11:50
:ere at AOS we stick to our manifesto (or Ethos) pledges. The Labour Party breaks its promises and manifesto pledges.
As the Baroness once said, "the lady is not for turning!" Neither are we.
The Labour Party doesn't just turn, it spins! :eek:
Both Marco and I independently planned AOS for several months before we actually started it but both came up with a near identical blueprint.
We looked at the strengths and weakneses of the other UK sites and reached the following conclusions:
Pfm: has the depth to discussions we like but since Tony began to use it as a vehicle to sell records he abandoned his flat earth principles and became a broad church of flat/round earthers and subjectivist/objectivists. Endless circular arguments develop each time someone dares mention a tweak that has brought a subjective improvent to their system that they would like to recommend to others. This has almost rendered certain discussions taboo.
Pfm is however a successful and vibrant forum and I'd say the UK's number one forum for sheer activity and traffic. One of its mods is a bit of a jobsworth though.
ZG: the antithesis of AOS. It began as a great alternative to the other sites and offered a different flavour of kit away from Naim and Linn. Under its old name Groovehandle I made the acquaintance of Tony Sallis (Mr C) back in 2001 long before he became a dealer and indeed before he started making wires. Groovehandle became Zerogain which was later hi-jacked by the bone-dry objectivists who rendered so many topics taboo that the forum's oxygen supply was cut off and the forum died. The mods admin made a total mess of dealing with the issue of circular subjectivist/objectivist debates about cables in my view and that seemed to mark the end of that forum.
Wigwam: I love the sense of community there and the diversity of approaches. This has been successful in engendering the spirit of the bake-offwhich has culminated in the annual Scalford Hall event. The bake-off means that music lovers are no longer forced to enter a dealer's dem room to audition kit. The forum's weakness lies in having a bit too much rough 'n tumble for my liking and it has its refugees. It's discussions usually lack the depth we strive for and regularly see on pfm.
With the above in mind AOS was conceived. Thankyou to all for participating and making it happen.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 12:16
Jerry, some systems convey the passion of music better than others. Some people actually dislike systems that do lots of detail and dynamics.
They find the experience a little too intense for their liking and need a lie down afterwards. We found this at Scalford Hall with our system - even when the volume was at sensible levels.
An inoffensive sound that makes for great background music at dinner parties is not what we're about. We don't do sonic wallpaper, systems that play safe and polite so as not to offend or risk making the ears bleed. I suspect, Jerry, neither do you if you play air conductor.
Over your years of hearing many different systems there must be some that make you want to air conduct more than others. Those are the systems that this forum is about, not the ones that don't disturb you while you read Northamptonshire Life magazine. A good system should give you a gentle nudge now and again while you are reading like a faithful dog or cat and command your attention.
Before I got into valves I was into Densen, a Danish flat earth hi-fi company whose motto was, "Life is too short for boring hi-fi!"
I agree and that's what this forum is essentially about. Densen also said they thought you should be either playing air guitar or air conductor depending on your musical tastes.
AOS is not about any given brands though, its a more a methodology, one which should enable your music collection to stir the passions and not just play to itself in the background.
The Vinyl Adventure
20-01-2010, 12:52
Well said, that man!
Does anybody know of a successful socialist state apart from the dubious example of Sweden? Don't mention China, which is an unfolding scenario and more of a wolf in sheep's clothing, IMO
That seems to be the comon argument against socialism .. My response is always the same ... Name ANY long term succesful government?!
The reality is, at least in my books, there isn't one! There are to many people with to many ideas and views..
The problem is which ever way this country goes... We can't even get democracy right ... If fact we can't even by run by a government without external business and what not fucking us over. The argument for left and right in this country (at least) is moot. We just need a government of people who actually understand the bloody country as aposed to a bunch of no nothing, petty childish, arguing, middle class morons who are willing to give up any semblance of ideal to tow the party line in return for power....
Did you hear they were talking about banning drinking games in pubs.... Have any of them been to a pub outside of Westminster.... How the hell are they going to inforce that??? Bloody idiots!
The root problem is that anyone who wants to become an MP is by definition undesirable. Just look at them: self-serving and power hungry the whole lot of them. Perhaps a system of national service in government is what is needed?
Perhaps a system of national service in government is what is needed?
Chosen at random, like jurors?
jandl100
20-01-2010, 13:20
Jerry, some systems convey the passion of music better than others. Some people actually dislike systems that do lots of detail and dynamics.
They find the experience a little too intense for their liking and need a lie down afterwards. We found this at Scalford Hall with our system - even when the volume was at sensible levels.
An inoffensive sound that makes for great background music at dinner parties is not what we're about. We don't do sonic wallpaper, systems that play safe and polite so as not to offend or risk making the ears bleed. I suspect, Jerry, neither do you if you play air conductor.
Over your years of hearing many different systems there must be some that make you want to air conduct more than others. Those are the systems that this forum is about, not the ones that don't disturb you while you read Northamptonshire Life magazine. A good system should give you a gentle nudge now and again while you are reading like a faithful dog or cat and command your attention.
Before I got into valves I was into Densen, a Danish flat earth hi-fi company whose motto was, "Life is too short for boring hi-fi!"
I agree and that's what this forum is essentially about. Densen also said they thought you should be either playing air guitar or air conductor depending on your musical tastes.
AOS is not about any given brands though, its a more a methodology, one which should enable your music collection to stir the passions and not just play to itself in the background.
Thanks for the reply, Steve.
I agree and identify with all of that. :)
"Life's too short for boring hifi" could well be my motto!
Rare Bird
20-01-2010, 13:31
The root problem is that anyone who wants to become an MP is by definition undesirable. Just look at them: self-serving and power hungry the whole lot of them. Perhaps a system of national service in government is what is needed?
MP's arnt intrested in being MP's they are intrested in what they can get out of it..Personally i still hold a lot of hippy values in many ways, i will always restrict myself from social normal, how the country is run, how people let authority dictate how they should run their lives.people need to wake up & feel their own way in life, but they carn't can they?
A Large output of people with flash big name hifi system are nothing but people who think they are better than others,same goes with fashion/accesories, cars etc sound/performance doesnt come into the equasion with most, they may be smug as to look down on (in their world, not to their standards) but i am the one that does the looking down upon them see.
Sorry for going off topic.
:ere at AOS we stick to our manifesto (or Ethos) pledges. The Labour Party breaks its promises and manifesto pledges.
As the Baroness once said, "the lady is not for turning!" Neither are we.
The Labour Party doesn't just turn, it spins! :eek:
Both Marco and I independently planned AOS for several months before we actually started it but both came up with a near identical blueprint.
We looked at the strengths and weakneses of the other UK sites and reached the following conclusions:
Pfm: has the depth to discussions we like but since Tony began to use it as a vehicle to sell records he abandoned his flat earth principles and became a broad church of flat/round earthers and subjectivist/objectivists. Endless circular arguments develop each time someone dares mention a tweak that has brought a subjective improvent to their system that they would like to recommend to others. This has almost rendered certain discussions taboo.
Pfm is however a successful and vibrant forum and I'd say the UK's number one forum for sheer activity and traffic. One of its mods is a bit of a jobsworth though.
ZG: the antithesis of AOS. It began as a great alternative to the other sites and offered a different flavour of kit away from Naim and Linn. Under its old name Groovehandle I made the acquaintance of Tony Sallis (Mr C) back in 2001 long before he became a dealer and indeed before he started making wires. Groovehandle became Zerogain which was later hi-jacked by the bone-dry objectivists who rendered so many topics taboo that the forum's oxygen supply was cut off and the forum died. The mods admin made a total mess of dealing with the issue of circular subjectivist/objectivist debates about cables in my view and that seemed to mark the end of that forum.
Wigwam: I love the sense of community there and the diversity of approaches. This has been successful in engendering the spirit of the bake-offwhich has culminated in the annual Scalford Hall event. The bake-off means that music lovers are no longer forced to enter a dealer's dem room to audition kit. The forum's weakness lies in having a bit too much rough 'n tumble for my liking and it has its refugees. It's discussions usually lack the depth we strive for and regularly see on pfm.
With the above in mind AOS was conceived. Thankyou to all for participating and making it happen.
Indeed, Steve :)
I think the four main UK audio/music forums (ourselves and the above) all have their own distinctive 'flavour' (and as such their loyal contributors who relate to that 'flavour'), and this is the reason why they have largely been a big success.
I say "largely" because, as you say, ZG (though busy in terms of lurker traffic) has in terms of regular active member contributions unfortunately become a bit of a graveyard, mainly I feel for the reasons you have outlined.
I would add also that I sense a distinct lack of day-to-day passion and commitment to the cause by those in charge as being the main reason for the current malaise that exists on ZG. Admin there, for me, seem to flit in and out, rarely contributing to discussions, (I mean who exactly is Mark Telkman? Most people know so little about him), and so don't have the daily active presence of either Steve or me here, Tony on pfm, or James on Wigwam. And even moderators there arrive on the scene way too late to have any hope of rectifying a problem situation.
For a forum to be successful, its admin and management team must be 110% committed to the cause, (that cause being the reason why it was started it in the first place), maintaining and developing the forum's identity. A successful audio/music forum in order to succeed must be notably different from the rest to give people a reason to visit there as opposed to somewhere else.
The fact is: one is constantly competing for people's attention and posting time, and the moment you lose focus of that, stop being different and become blasé, is the moment when things start going downhill...
AoS will reach its 2nd year anniversary tomorrow, having in that time accumulated nearly 2000 members and (probably by tomorrow) over 94,000 posts, therefore undoubtedly we have been successful. However, we’ve made some mistakes, which is only natural, but hopefully we’ve learned from them. We will continue to listen to what our members think and come up with new ideas of how to make AoS bigger, more fun, and above all, we will stay true to the beliefs which continue to shape our unique identity.
Roll on year 3, guys - let’s all enjoy the ride!! :cool:
Marco.
Interesting thread indeed. I've come to it late - partly because I've been busy but also because I'd been taking a break from anything more than a cursory scan of the forum. Why? Largely because for me, increasingly, I've felt uneasy about how some threads and posts have been handled on here.
When I joined AoS there was a distinct difference to the forum, and it was one that I frankly was glad of. Little percieved equipment snobbery and a genuine interest in all forms of hi-fi. A breath of fresh air.
My gradual unease I suppose centers around a perception that (as others have voiced on here) 'if you ain't in the gang, you aint in the right place.' Now I hope Marco and Steve have broad enough shoulders to take this, as it is in no way intended as personal criticism, or to take anything away from what they've created here... but on occasions I've felt the distinction between moderator and 'site owner' have been blurred, and the lightness of touch (and dispassionate detachment) required for sucessful moderation has been replaced by a rather heavy-handed and unpleasant approach.
Whilst I appreciate the desire to argue passionately, and your striving to create a different kind of forum, I think when debates get heated the desire to react with 'it's our playpen - if you don't like it then here's the door' can become hard to resist - and it manifests itself subtly here, from time to time. It's a hard line to tread IMHO - balancing your roles as site owners, passionate hi-fi aficionados and moderators. Factor in the notorious inability of the on-screen written word to inflect nuance, humour and irony and you have a task that is incredibly difficult. Maybe separating the roles of moderator and owners would be helpful - I always think of any forum (internet or not) as an organic entity, and at some point one has to let it go to find it's place and unique identity, even if this is at odds with the initial intention. Otherwise it's just a fiefdom.
Just my (subjectivist) tuppence worth.
Jason
'if you ain't in the gang, you aint in the right place.'
Jason, a number of us have expressed similar views in quite different ways.
When an orthodoxy is defined, so also is heresy, and the temptation then grows to establish an inquisition. Me? I'm for the liberal broad church; which does not have to be bland, but can, and should be, a joyful association of people on a journey.
With no apologies for the use of religious language, for the title of the thread is "Preaching".
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 15:31
The liberal* broad church is pfm. AOS is different. Diversity is the key to co-existence.
*Apart from one jobsworth moderator.
The liberal* broad church is pfm. AOS is different. Diversity is the key to co-existence.
*Apart from one jobsworth moderator.
I have always found all the PFM moderators to be even-handed and reasonable in their actions.
Hi Jason,
Thanks for your feedback.
Rather than go through the contents of your last post in detail, some of which has already been covered, could I ask what exactly you'd like to change/improve about AoS in order that you would visit us more often as before?
Rest assured that we will take on board any suggestions made :)
Cheers!
Marco.
Rare Bird
20-01-2010, 15:59
:whistle:
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 16:32
I've just received the following from Tony L of pfm who basically wants to clarify his position. I've agreed to publish it and here is obviously the right place:
Hi Steven,
Just a quick line as I feel you have slightly misrepresented pfm in your recent post on AoS.
The most important thing about pfm is it is entirely member-driven – the whole site is driven by the userbase and always has been. All I do is watch and facilitate needs as I spot them, e.g. the diy room, photo room, classic room etc all came through there clearly being a requirement for such things. This is where pfm is so different from sites like AoS, which I see as being driven from the top down, i.e. there is a firm admin viewpoint that defines the site. I've never wanted to do this, and it's been a very conscious and deliberate decision not to. I'm not stating this as any criticism of AoS etc, just pointing out what I see as a very different admin approach.
With very few exceptions I moderate only on behaviour, never ideology. I've certainly never killed a polite thread about audio due to my disagreeing with it's content, nor have ever tried to impose my own belief-set or portray it as fact. In fact I am deliberately rather quiet on audio these days - I learnt a very long time ago that there are many diverse and interesting ways to kill that particular cat, and that everyone's priority set and personal taste is different and valid for them. I simply provide the platform for discussion, not the topics themselves.
The only audio concept I've ever actively 'pushed' since the forum's inception is that of 'free hi-fi', i.e. if one buys sensibly within the second hand market then it is possible to own quality audio kit via investment only as it is possible to sell later at no loss, or even a profit if you are good at it! It is really this simple ethos that pfm was built upon, that and a thriving second hand room to facilitate it. I'm still 'flat earth' to a large degree, but that's never meant 'Linn / Naim' as well you know.
I've not changed pfm moderation policy one iota since the site grew to the extent it now represents my employment, nor will you find a single post from me pitching my vinyl anywhere outside of the record shop area. There is no change to the site other than there is an easily ignored record shop room. The feel of the site has changed over the years due to a vast influx of new users, it is an entirely organic membership-driven change.
Please feel free to publish this if you wish.
Kind regards,
Tony.
I particularly like this part and indeed we've incorporated such sentiment into our orthodoxy:
I'm still 'flat earth' to a large degree, but that's never meant 'Linn / Naim' as well you know.
If I need to justify our stance of moderating on ideology it is because we believe there is room on the internet for a place where the subjectivist/flat earth ideology is protected from a minority of vociferous objectivists. That place is AOS.
Nice contribution (and clarification) there from Tony - shows he's watching, too! ;)
Basically, pfm does its thing and we do ours: both approaches are valid and have their followers, and this is how things will continue :)
Marco.
If I need to justify our stance of moderating on ideology it is because we believe there is room on the internet for a place where the subjectivist/flat earth ideology is protected from a minority of vociferous objectivists. That place is AOS.Well, in that case it's simple : it's enough to define what a "minority of vociferous objectivists" is.
Which is simpler than trying to define what "the subjectivist ideology" is.
What do you think of that ? ;)
Rare Bird
20-01-2010, 16:48
I'm still 'flat earth' to a large degree, but that's never meant 'Linn / Naim' as well you know.
I particularly like this part and indeed we've incorporated such sentiment into our orthodoxy:
How many more times do we need to hear this..I think this is a large contribution as to why prople on here are pissed off hearing it.
If I need to justify our stance of moderating on ideology it is because we believe there is room on the internet for a place where the subjectivist/flat earth ideology is protected from a minority of vociferous objectivists. That place is AOS.
This may be a sign of me being slightly out of touch with some arguments, but do you feel that you have needed to take this moderating stance much here?
Well, in that case it's simple : it's enough to define what a "minority of vociferous objectivists" is.
Which is simpler than trying to define what "the subjectivist ideology" is.
What do you think of that ? ;)
I am with Themis: it is sufficient to have a moderation policy to exclude disruptive and aggressive posters who may be "vociferous objectivists", but may equally be loud mouthed individuals with other disruptive agendas.
I refer back to my earlier post. Ethos Posts 1-4 dealing with board etiquette is a sufficient moderation policy. Any attempt to delimit the boundaries of conversation which remains polite is extremely problematical.
Members will talk as they will.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 17:07
How many more times do we need to hear this..I think this is a large contribution as to why prople on here are pissed off hearing it.
I said as much about the flat earth aspect that seems to make the red mist drop before your eyes in post #93 in response to a question asked by Jerry.
As they say, tough titties! If people want to get pissed off by this then that's up to them but it changes nothing.
Oi you two, enough!
Andre, you're just back from a week's ban, mate - as such I would've hoped that you'd have kept your head down and stuck to the topics where you can contribute constructively.
Please do that and steer clear of "bullshit agenda threads" (your words), as you indicated that you'd do earlier - cheers!! :cool:
Marco.
Rare Bird
20-01-2010, 17:16
That old chestnut eh!
Yes i did say i'd keep out of agenda topic, you saying this is then cos it clearly looks that way,in fact every topic Steve starts has a motive..
Tell you what i'll do you a deal.I'll save you the bother of banning me again.
:wave:
I'm not saying anything of the sort - I quoted your own words (hence the inverted commas), no-one elses. Basically, if you can't offer constructive criticism or any form of positive input on a particular discussion - say nothing and contribute elsewhere where you can.
Now grow up and stop behaving like a petulant drama queen... Your hissy "I'm off" fits are becoming more than a little tiresome! :doh: :rolleyes:
Marco.
Mike Reed
20-01-2010, 17:26
STREWTH!
I only went for a cuppa, and upon return, find that this thread has encompassed three more pages and yet more topics/ arguments.
The sub heading of this thread is BLANK CANVAS
Should it not now be re-named as EASEL over the place?
(Sorry, I'll leave now..........)
Very good, Mike! :lolsign:
Marco.
Andre, Marco doesn't seem to be like his online persona at all. Perhaps the two of you should speak on the phone or summat and get to know each other verbally.
Neil was right. If you only know each other by online posting and there's no "IMO" or "I understand," there's loads of space for disagreement and unintentional wrong-footing...
:peace:
If I need to justify our stance of moderating on ideology it is because we believe there is room on the internet for a place where the subjectivist/flat earth ideology is protected from a minority of vociferous objectivists. That place is AOS.
Personally I have no problem whatsoever with "vociferous objectivists", but rather those amongst them who join a site like this and seek to disrespectfully 'poke'/ridicule/demean (delete as you feel appropriate) the valid views and opinions (which they clearly hold in disdain) of the discerning and experienced subjectivists who mainly populate AoS.
If "vociferous objectivists" feel that they can behave and contribute constructively without any of the above, and there is a mutual respect between both parties and their equally valid views, then there will be no problems. Sadly, it rarely works out that way, which is why some people who couldn't manage that have had to go. Life is too short to share webspace with those who clearly have no respect for their fellow man, simply because they have a different type of mindset.
It is the hugely tedious and irksome subjectivist/objectivist debates (mainly involving cables and such like) that I deeply detest - and indeed to escape from them and live in a peaceful haven where such legitimate discussions between knowledgeable enthusiasts can take place without unwanted interference from those I've referred to earlier - was a primary motivating factor in me deciding to launch AoS (I'm sure that Steve feels the same in this respect).
We have created a (largely) veritable haven of peace and tranquillity, and indeed highly informative WHOLE SECTION of this forum, entitled 'The Artist's Palette' devoted to the very topics which when discussed elsewhere inevitably start World War III!!!
It's because of this type of thing that we're very mindful and protective of our subjectivist identity - and why we will continue to 'nail our colours to the mast' in that respect with no intentions of wavering or faltering from what we believe is right. That is why we moderate on ideology now, and will continue to do so in future :)
It's up to others whether they wish to be part of that journey or not.
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 18:01
Nice one Marco :)
Personally I have no problem whatsoever with "vociferous objectivists", but rather those amongst them who join a site like this and seek to disrespectfully 'poke'/ridicule/demean (delete as you feel appropriate) the valid views and opinions (which they clearly hold in disdain) of the discerning and experienced subjectivists who mainly populate AoS.
To me this translates to : you have no problem with "objectivists" as long as they are not "vociferous"... ;)
To me this translates to : you have no problem with "objectivists" as long as they are not "vociferous"... ;)
If they're not vociferous you can't tell whether they're objectivists!
To me this translates to : you have no problem with "objectivists" as long as they are not "vociferous"...
Hi Dimitri,
They can be as "vociferous" as they like, as long as they behave themselves. Unless you're implying that all "vociferous objectivists" are arrogant, condescending twats!! ;)
I've already outlined what them 'behaving themselves' here would require and so have no wish to repeat it again.
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 18:47
Dimitri/Joe, you've both hit the nail on the head which is why objectivists are welcome here in principle, in practice as soon as they express their views the sneering contempt for the subjectivist approach is impossible to conceal.
Precisely! And it's revealing that sneering contempt which normally seals their fate. Sadly, I've yet to meet a "vociferous objectivist" who doesn't possess that unfortunate character trait (amongst others)....
Marco.
Unless you're implying that all "vociferous objectivists" are arrogant, condescending twats!! ;)
I do imply that, indeed Marco.
All the "vociferous objectivists" I've come across in 35 years in this hobby, have one thing in common : they use "common sense", "preconceived ideas" and "fallacious generalizations" as part of their ultimate argumentation when they come short of technical notions and arguments.
To me, the use of such semantics presented as "scientific/technical facts" is what defines an "arrogant, condescending twat". ;)
Hahahaha.... How true! No wonder you fit in here so well!! :lol:
Marco.
Ian Walker
20-01-2010, 19:30
Hi Steven,
Just a quick line as I feel you have slightly misrepresented pfm in your recent post on AoS.
The most important thing about pfm is it is entirely member-driven – the whole site is driven by the userbase and always has been. All I do is watch and facilitate needs as I spot them, e.g. the diy room, photo room, classic room etc all came through there clearly being a requirement for such things. This is where pfm is so different from sites like AoS, which I see as being driven from the top down, i.e. there is a firm admin viewpoint that defines the site. I've never wanted to do this, and it's been a very conscious and deliberate decision not to. I'm not stating this as any criticism of AoS etc, just pointing out what I see as a very different admin approach.
With very few exceptions I moderate only on behaviour, never ideology. I've certainly never killed a polite thread about audio due to my disagreeing with it's content, nor have ever tried to impose my own belief-set or portray it as fact. In fact I am deliberately rather quiet on audio these days - I learnt a very long time ago that there are many diverse and interesting ways to kill that particular cat, and that everyone's priority set and personal taste is different and valid for them. I simply provide the platform for discussion, not the topics themselves.
The only audio concept I've ever actively 'pushed' since the forum's inception is that of 'free hi-fi', i.e. if one buys sensibly within the second hand market then it is possible to own quality audio kit via investment only as it is possible to sell later at no loss, or even a profit if you are good at it! It is really this simple ethos that pfm was built upon, that and a thriving second hand room to facilitate it. I'm still 'flat earth' to a large degree, but that's never meant 'Linn / Naim' as well you know.
I've not changed pfm moderation policy one iota since the site grew to the extent it now represents my employment, nor will you find a single post from me pitching my vinyl anywhere outside of the record shop area. There is no change to the site other than there is an easily ignored record shop room. The feel of the site has changed over the years due to a vast influx of new users, it is an entirely organic membership-driven change.
Please feel free to publish this if you wish.
Kind regards,
Tony.
Well chaps after reading this from Tony ive got to say if you followed it too you wouldnt go far wrong.
Ian.
We've got a different identity and equally different values from pfm, mate, as has been explained in previous posts. In a nutshell, what works for them wouldn't (in its entirety) work for us.
The allowing of tedious (and circular) subjectivist/objectivist debates alone, regardless of anything else, just wouldn't be compatible with what we want here :)
Marco.
Well, in that case it's simple : it's enough to define what a "minority of vociferous objectivists" is.
Which is simpler than trying to define what "the subjectivist ideology" is.
What do you think of that ? ;)
I'm glad you understand what these big words mean Dimitri because i don't, i'm losing the will to live if i read anymore on this thread.
Can i vote for posts written in plain English in the future please:)
i'm losing the will to live if i read anymore on this thread.
+1 ;)
I think the position should be quite clear to everyone by now.
So, can we get back to talking about hi-fi? :)
Marco.
Well chaps after reading this from Tony ive got to say if you followed it too you wouldn't go far wrong.
Agreed, but Marco in post 125 says
it's revealing that sneering contempt which normally seals their fate.
So if in practice AoS applies moderation only to breaches of etiquette, and not to displays of unorthodoxy (as defined in "Ethos") wherein lies the problem?
Another way forward would be to move Ethos 1-4 (or something like) to "Terms of Service" which would lay down the Moderator's Policy, and let "Ethos" be rewritten in less strident (less vociferous?) terms.
Mike Reed
20-01-2010, 19:52
+1 ;
So, can we get back to talking about hi-fi? :)
Marco.
I'm thinking of opening a thread on the debilitating effects of Axminster carpets on sound presentation..............or maybe it's just the virus!
jandl100
20-01-2010, 19:56
I'm a member of quite a few hifi forums, but only post substantially here and on Wigwam.
... based on the Wigwam experience I'm happy to support an AOS moderating policy that cuts short those endless and pointless subjectivist/objectivist 'debates' and name calling.
Over the last year or so Wigwam has tried, with fair success, to get around this problem by having a separate objectivist "technical" section.
If the owners/mods of this forum wish to take a subjectivist pov, that's OK with me and I will endeavour to work within those limits. It's not hard - for me music & hifi is a subjective experience anyway.
Let's get back to talking about hifi & music! :) :cool:
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 19:56
We've got a different identity and equally different values from pfm, mate, as has been explained in previous posts. In a nutshell, what works for them wouldn't (in its entirety) work for us.
The allowing of tedious (and circular) subjectivist/objectivist debates alone, regardless of anything else, just wouldn't be compatible with what we want here :)
Marco.
You've beaten me to it.
Vociferous = outspoken, forthright.
Objectivist = a believer that everything that is audible is measurable.
Subjectivist = a believer that the ear should be the final arbiter regardless of measurements.
Can i vote for posts written in plain English in the future please
You can vote any which way you like but the language used is plain enough. Any additional simplification of language (in Orwellian style) would amount to dumbing down.
So if in practice AoS applies moderation only to breaches of etiquette, and not to displays of unorthodoxy (as defined in "Ethos") wherein lies the problem?
Another way forward would be to move Ethos 1-4 (or something like) to "Terms of Service" which would lay down the Moderator's Policy, and let "Ethos" be rewritten in less strident (less vociferous?) terms.
Lol. Brian, let's just keep it simple, leave things as they are, and move on.
Nothing is perfect, and the forum, despite its 'problems' is doing very well. Indeed we've never been busier! We're approaching our second year anniversary, having achieved great success in our first two years, and so we would like to concentrate on that and the many positive things we've achieved during that time :)
As such, I think that this thread is fast reaching the end of it's sell-by date....
Marco.
I'm a member of quite a few hifi forums, but only post substantially here and on Wigwam.
... based on the Wigwam experience I'm happy to support an AOS moderating policy that cuts short those endless and pointless subjectivist/objectivist 'debates' and name calling.
Over the last year or so Wigwam has tried, with fair success, to get around this problem by having a separate objectivist "technical" section.
If the owners/mods of this forum wish to take a subjectivist pov, that's OK with me and I will endeavour to work within those limits. It's not hard - for me music & hifi is a subjective experience anyway.
Let's get back to talking about hifi & music!
Hear, hear Jerry - and we value your support! :)
That's it for now, chaps. We end the discussion on that positive note. Thanks for all your input, some of which will definitely be considered. Get the champagne ready tomorrow to toast our second anniversary and many more of them in future!
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6015/party073.gif (http://img503.imageshack.us/i/party073.gif/)
<Thread closed>.
Marco.
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 20:03
Another way forward would be to move Ethos 1-4 (or something like) to "Terms of Service" which would lay down the Moderator's Policy, and let "Ethos" be rewritten in less strident (less vociferous?) terms.
Then it would become another set of rules for people to follow or implement blindly without embracing the spirit behind them. The more mischievous would seek to obey the letter and violate the spirit of such terms of service which basically equal an Accepted User Policy, i.e. a list of rules.
Note our ethos is a series of paragraphs it is not a list of numbered articles, something you've taken upon yourself to impose upon our ethos and turn it into an AUP as you understand it or would prefer it to be.
An ethos is the spirit that brings us together. It contains elements of both orthodoxy and conduct.
Ok, that's it now folks for this thread :cool:
Marco.
Steve Toy
21-01-2010, 02:36
Hang on a minute. Who started this thread? ;)
I started it so I'll bloody finish it :p
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2026 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.