View Full Version : Clarifying sound-per-pound-value (SPPV)
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 05:14
It isn't about assembling a system on the cheap, it's about making every pound spent count. The law of diminishing returns doesn't apply either, for you reach a point, probably quite low down the hi-fi food chain, where you need to spend, say, triple the money to derive a 10% improvement in resolution and so forth. SPPV still applies in this instance. Where it does not apply is when you spend increasing amounts of dosh to see no improvement or when spending less money in other ways actually yields better results.
If the system makes music listening more enjoyable than any other at a given price point (and the sky is the limit here), is more revealing of what is on the recording and there is no more cost effective way to achieve the same or better results then SPPV applies.
E.g. if the Cabasse Sphère speakers at £100,000 are better than anything else up to that price point then they pass the SPPV test.
Nice notion Steve.
Yet, for some separates (speakers, for instance) it will be hard to apply without taking into account the rest of the chain (namely the amplification).
Example: I have a friend who bought (without asking me) a pair of JBL TL260 (Anniversary, I think). They sounded awful with his amp, which -in all evidence- couldn't cope with these huge speakers and their drivers.
I advised him to get a better amp. After several tries (the speaker is really difficult and my friend's listening room is ruthless in the 50-80Hz region) we ended up with a 2x250w amplifier : one of the very-few which could have the job done.
The final SPPV is very good indeed (both the speakers and amp were bought second hand). But the speakers alone... I wouldn't say so. At that time, my own £800 Mulidine (costing five time less) were much, much better. :)
The only separate I owed that had a low SPPV was an Arcam AVR-300 amplifier. All the rest was excellent. ;)
I guess it will be simpler to make a list with low SPPV separates than the other way around.
Dave Cawley
17-01-2010, 08:13
A lot of people, some of my customers and to a degree myself included, do not worry about the money. It is a) the sound b) the looks and c) the pride in ownership that matters.
I think there is a bit of reverse snobbery here, or "if I can't afford it, I don't like it" ?
However we all know this is this "ethos" here and we have to like it or lump it. A pity though to have this restriction and "closed in" feeling , rather than let each and every member have their own ideas and thoughts.
Dave
Hi Dave,
I don't think you've fully grasped what Steve has written. SPPV doesn't necessarily mean cheap, old chap - it covers a very wide range of options.
What we're against on AoS is 'badge hi-fi' for the sake of it: i.e. the 'prestige value' of equipment over its out-and-out sonic performance. For us, the latter will always be the most important consideration.
A good example of what we're referring to as being the opposite of SPPV is the whole of the Absolute Sounds product portfolio and the ethos behind how they operate.
As a point of note, I've NEVER attended an AS demo at a show (and I've sat through many) and left being in any way impressed with what I've heard (quite the opposite in fact!), despite the systems demonstrated costing in some cases hundreds of thousands of pounds!
Remember that you sell quite a few products which epitomise AoS SPPV principles, namely modified SL-1200s, Jelco tonearms, Denon, AT and Shelter cartridges, the ANT phono stage and Puresound products - equipment which punches WAY above its weight for the price! :)
*That* type of gear is what we value most on AoS, but there are also other examples of 'high-end' SPPV, which Steve refers to. I could cite some more examples of this.
Marco.
Dave Cawley
17-01-2010, 09:01
Hi Marco
Yes, I understand all of that. And most members do too. However when you say "What we're against on AoS is 'badge hi-fi' for the sake of it:" it honestly seems mostly the view of you and Steve only, not all the 1,000's of members. Hence a lot of us find this claustrophobic.
If you and Steve had that view, and promoted it, that would be fine, but to make it a mandatory Ethos of A.O.S. is somewhat boxing yourselves in.
As you say, most of what I sell meets your criteria, however in 15 minutes I'm delivering a system to Birmingham that would not, but the customer is very happy. He would feel awkward here though.
Regards
Dave
Beechwoods
17-01-2010, 09:29
Dave... I think people choose AOS because they like what we're about. If we lost what was distinctive about us we'd lose what makes us special, and in time, that would reflect in the level of posting, new members, member interaction. I don't think its true that a focus on SPPV is an alienating factor for 'a lot of' our members...
It's best not to pidgeon-hole things. What's right for some isn't right for others.
Marco, I do agree about many AS dems, but boomy "concrete box" hotel rooms are rather the opposite to the cavernous timber-framed affairs in the product's home country. The little Krell CD and integrated driving Sonus Fabers would be far more suitable. AS is a business first remember...
Stratmangler
17-01-2010, 10:01
What we're against on AoS is 'badge hi-fi' for the sake of it: i.e. the 'prestige value' of equipment over its out-and-out sonic performance. For us, the latter will always be the most important consideration.
A good example of what we're referring to as being the opposite of SPPV is the whole of the Absolute Sounds product portfolio and the ethos behind how they operate.
If I may point out something from your ethos statement
Things we don't like here:
Defamatory comments about any manufacturers or dealers.
Defamatory comments about any other member of this forum or any other hi-fi forum.
'Willy waving' (i.e. boasting about one's system in a monetary value sense).
Swearing excessively. The occasional bit may slip thorough, but nobody wants to hear 'f this' and 'f that' all day long.
And no porn or links to porn please.
That's about it really.
They're your rules and yet you frequently fail to abide by them.
Personally I think that the forum should be called "Steve and Marco's Soapbox", because that is what this site seems to be turning into.
Is the next thread going to be "Teach Your Grandmother To Suck Eggs" perchance ?
Chris;)
Well, the way I see it, there are three distinct populations in AoS : Digital (Stan's users and such), Analog (TTs, arms and misc analog oldies) and Tubes (tube amplification).
I suspect the SPPV principle is tricky to apply to digital. Where is the frontier ? Good sound ? You can get good sound from a £99 pro card any day...
Anyway, as I already said somewhere else, it's tricky to apply objective principles on a subjective domain. We'll end up being messed up in endless contradictions.
If the goal is AoS distinctive content, then it can't be achieved in a technically moving domain : you need a stable background that only dead (past) technologies can provide. Something like a "oldies but goodies" content.
Is this the target ? :scratch:
Chris,
Thanks for your feedback. You may wish to read what Nick said again:
I think people choose AOS because they like what we're about. If we lost what was distinctive about us we'd lose what makes us special, and in time, that would reflect in the level of posting, new members, member interaction.
Indeed. We deliberately set out to be different and not 'a broad church for all'.
Furthermore, an Ethos is not a rigid set of rules like an AUP (as operated on other forums); it's an 'organic' and constantly evolving entity portraying, as far as possible, what we try to set out to achieve. Most of the time we hit the mark and fulfil our goals, sometimes we don't - we're human, after all.
The fact is, AoS is not your usual run-of-the-mill, 'Jack-of-all-trades' type of forum. We have a strongly defined identity, which is entirely deliberate. Either you grasp and appreciate what we're about and think you fit in, or you don't. It's entirely people's own choice :)
Marco.
We are fortunate enough that the great majority of our clients know the sound they are after, we merely give them options around what they are looking for.
However in the main most potential customers are not so fortunate as to be so decisive, they tend to 'flit' from sound style to sound style, taking an example from each style and trying to 'mould it' into their current system, this does not give long term satisfaction (imho). Forums are partly responsible for these phenomena (ABE) the Audio Butterfly Effect both in a good and not so good way.
Joe Bloggs goes to see his friend Pete smith after so many years, did not realise he was into music, (as is he) listens to his friends systems a fresh thinks 'Wow' that amazing, goes home both elated and depressed as (he feels it) he system is inferior for whatever reason.
Then remains quiet for the next week or so, on an 'inner self awareness journey'.
Reaching deep into his soul trying to find a way of restoring the previous balance. Mentally enabling him to reach his friends level or entering complete self denial and adopting the intellectual high ground 'yes it is good, however I could not justify their outlay' or Naim owners will recognise this next one ;-) 'It is just different I prefer my system, invite your close circle of hifi chums around to tell you how good it sounds’. Self affirmation to maximum level Captain.
Upon returning to the information super highway, he is armed with is full defensive strategy or his cheque book depending on his decision/mental state/female persuasive techniques / or how much he can get for ‘’A good hard shag’ at Plymouth Hoe’s best sailor vantage point.
Now waiting for him to return is a goodly hoard of willing and eager advice givers ready to take up the challenge of ‘helping’ this poor lost soul cast adrift in the sea of mediocrity and wayward sounds.
Everything is available from ‘Nah mate it’s a load of bollox, you need box ‘Y’ its freaking awesome’, to best Yorkshire voice, (As everyone knows that Yorkshire men are Scotsmen with all the goodness squeezed out ) ‘Your mad, I can build you a pair of 211 mono blocks to smash those Japanese overpriced so and so’s, for just £4.50 with a bundle of bits from Maplins and RS. All of the people who must be heard are using my amps,you know it makes sense’
Not forgetting those memorable ‘Forget digital reproduction it has never caught on, its so inferior to Vinyl, you would be a skunks left testicle holder if you had anything other than a direct drive thingyme bob with Colonel Mustard’s best four pence hapney’ arm with Captain Jack’s cartridge made from curly bits found in virgin mermaid’s French panties’ Humm....... starting to sound familiar?
Least we must not forget ‘Ah bloody vinyl, all those clips pop’s and crackles are for losers, sad gits with record vacuums cleaners and washing machines, waiting for the bearing temperature to come up to speed, wish they would stop banging on about 50p record shops’
All this ringing any bells?, well the REAL truth for individuals lies somewhere in amongst all of the above, oh did we mention valves and solid state :-)
Very bottom line here, everyone likes their own sounds their own way, does it sound ‘better’ on more expensive equipment? Yes and no depending on what you are looking for.
Not the guy next door, your best mates mum your really fancied since you saw her playing tennis in that short skirt when you went round after school one evening to play on his Dragon 32 or Mr internet guru or super dealer offering you the moon on a stick for a bag of popcorn ad a diet coke that posts on the 'must read places' on the net that you are so obsessed with because all ‘those’ other post on there must be Demi-Gods as they read the Guardian and the Mail, which beats your Sun hands down.
Mr.C’s rules for sound,
If you enjoy it and it engages you then it is good for you. VERBAITUM.
Chris,
Thanks for your feedback. You may wish to read what Nick said again:
Indeed. We deliberately set out to be different and not 'a broad church for all'.
Furthermore, an Ethos is not a rigid set of rules like an AUP (as operated on other forums); it's an 'organic' and constantly evolving entity portraying, as far as possible, what we try to set out to achieve. Most of the time we hit the mark and fulfil our goals, sometimes we don't - we're human, after all.
The fact is, AoS is not your usual run-of-the-mill, 'Jack-of-all-trades' type of forum. We have a strongly defined identity, which is entirely deliberate. Either you grasp and appreciate what we're about and think you fit in, or you don't. It's entirely people's own choice :)
Marco.
Marco, what defines AoS, according to me (that's how I perceived it when I enrolled), is kindness, peace and open mind.
Of course if you thing "open mind" is an inconvenience and that "kindness" is not needed to give up "peace" and chase away this inconvenience, then... it will be hard to keep AoS the way it was. ;)
I'm keeping words to a minimum, as I see that you do the same thing. :)
Who are the witches that you are chasing exactly ? :scratch:
Hi Dave,
Yes, I understand all of that. And most members do too. However when you say "What we're against on AoS is 'badge hi-fi' for the sake of it:" it honestly seems mostly the view of you and Steve only, not all the 1,000's of members. Hence a lot of us find this claustrophobic.
I appreciate your view, but that's definitely not the case. Why not start a poll and find out what most members think? I think you might be surprised.... :)
If you and Steve had that view, and promoted it, that would be fine, but to make it a mandatory Ethos of A.O.S. is somewhat boxing yourselves in.
It isn't a "mandatory Ethos of A.O.S" - it's not as rigid as that. Basically, we promote the view of getting the biggest bang for your buck with hi-fi, whether that be through D.I.Y, judiciously selecting the best new equipment out there which genuinely offers high SPPV and/or modifying and upgrading vintage gear.
However, when something is genuinely superb, and way out of the ordinary, then we believe that it's worth paying for and investing in. Examples of this (and I could give a few) are the Continuum turntable (a truly exceptional piece of engineering) and the genuinely innovative Cabasse La Sphère loudspeakers - both products with a price tag in excess of £100k.
What we're completely against, in particular over and above what I've already mentioned, is some of the re-badging/re-boxing of equipment which occurs in the high-end, ripping people off in the process, so one is paying through the nose for no more than a so-so product with a 'fancy case' from a recognised 'prestige' manufacturer.
Does anyone remember, for example, the Goldmund CD player, costing many thousands of pounds, shamefully exposed for being nothing more than a Denon (or something of that ilk) with a fancy fascia and a Goldmund logo on it?
That's a bloody disgrace, and such blatant profiteering and ripping off of people ought to be outlawed. However, it's amazing the way some people will pay ludicrous sums of money for equipment that amounts to no more than badge 'prestige value', when underneath the hood, where it really matters, there's nothing special going on whatsoever to offer genuine sonic value for your investment.
I've also watched, at E.A.R HQ, with my own eyes, ordinary Arcam CDPs being fitted with the most basic of modifications, along with a 'fancy fascia' and re-branded as 'E.A.R Acute' CDPs at many times the cost of the standard Arcam units. Are those items liable to offer high SPPV? I seriously doubt it!!
On AoS we believe in getting the maximum sonic return from your investment, no matter how that is achieved, so quite simply, ALL equipment which fulfils that criteria (regardless of its retail cost) will be recommended and promoted :cool:
Marco.
It's simply about rebadging and poor engineering then ? :scratch:
No, not just that Dimitri, but it's a big part of it. Right now I'm off to visit a friend and listen to some music, so I'll return to your point later :)
Let's have no fighting now, people, while I'm away! ;)
Marco.
'Value' is a highly subjective term, if not the most subjective term in audio, so therefore determining a definitive 'SPPV' listing of eligible products is probably impossible.
Any vinyl heads on here would no doubt agree on the amazing 'bang-for-the-buck' properties of the Denon and AT carts (even if they chose to use something else) but would there be much agreement beyond that, I don't think so (even the Techie T/T has its detractors, hard to believe but true:rolleyes:).
Same goes for classic speakers, for everyone who thinks they are worth the hassle and expense they will be others who think the money would be better spent elsewhere so maybe the the acronym should be renamed 'PSPPV', Personal Sound Per Pound Value.
Another point to bear in mind is if 'SPPV' is applied too prescriptively then it runs the risk of succumbing to the curse of the magazines' 'Editors Choice' ie., just another meaningless label.
Cheers
Primalsea
17-01-2010, 12:30
For me SPPV is all about products that have designed to be soundwise excellent first. Everything about the product including components, design, build has been chosen with this idea in mind. What I'm against is products that are just priced high to give them kudos. Some products have both of these principles applied unfortunately, but buying them second hand makes them a good deal.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 12:38
Perhaps, like most things, SPPV is best determined by what could NOT possibly be classed as high SPPV, examples of which have been provided by Marco. The perception of value is subjective and relative, of course, but an element of consensus is possible nevertheless.
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 12:58
I think there is a problem with many buyer's who would only consider expensive kit like the EAR ' simply because it is expensive and therefore must be better .
My local Linn dealer once told me about a customer he had who wanted a full linn active set up ' so he duly rigged up a tri amped kaber system ' LP12 ' karik ' the works.
The guy came and listened , liked it ' but when told how much (10,000) this was about 1996, he simply said ' too cheap ' and bought the keltik system instead .
The guy came and listened , liked it ' but when told how much (10,000) this was about 1996, he simply said ' too cheap ' and bought the keltik system instead .
Well, THAT is clearly against AoS principles, as I see it. :steam:
If I won, say, £2 million on the lottery (and God willing one day I will...) I would be looking at spending between £100k and £200k on a system. So I am not going to be wasting time auditioning anything 'cheap'. But if I spent £150K, bought a system that I was very happy with, then heard another system that I preferred but that cost only £20K I'd be gutted. That is what I am interpreting SSPV to mean.
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 13:19
The linn dealer ' Frank of overture ' told me he spent about £20,000 in the end and just smiled , another one of his customer's had a slightly different aproach , spending almost every last penny on his Linn system ' he even sold his car and just ' uses public transport.
Frank was quite prepared to home dem everything for this guy ' and does indeed provide and excellent service in that repect.
The Grand Wazoo
17-01-2010, 13:31
I find myself once again somewhat taken aback by the latest 'AoS position statement'
Perhaps, like most things, SPPV is best determined by what could NOT possibly be classed as high SPPV, examples of which have been provided by Marco. The perception of value is subjective and relative, of course, but an element of consensus is possible nevertheless.
You are confusing the product with the salesman's pricing policy. Your statements would be truer if there were no second hand market.
The linn dealer ' Frank of overture ' told me he spent about £20,000 in the end and just smiled , another one of his customer's had a slightly different aproach , spending almost every last penny on his Linn system ' he even sold his car and just ' uses public transport.
Frank was quite prepared to home dem everything for this guy ' and does indeed provide and excellent service in that repect.
At the profit margins he works from, I'm not surprised ;) (typing as an ex-Linn dealer twice over...)
As said by me and others elsewhere, there is a top tier of high income earners where inflation, recession and price isn't really relevant where stereos are concerned. Some of these people are fanbois of various brands - B&O, Linn, Naim, Krell, ARC and similar well known brands and they'll buy the latest model regardless of trade-in loss or cost..
.
Mr.C’s rules for sound,
If you enjoy it and it engages you then it is good for you. VERBAITUM.
What he said.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 15:06
Nice notion Steve.
Yet, for some separates (speakers, for instance) it will be hard to apply without taking into account the rest of the chain (namely the amplification).
Example: I have a friend who bought (without asking me) a pair of JBL TL260 (Anniversary, I think). They sounded awful with his amp, which -in all evidence- couldn't cope with these huge speakers and their drivers.
I advised him to get a better amp. After several tries (the speaker is really difficult and my friend's listening room is ruthless in the 50-80Hz region) we ended up with a 2x250w amplifier : one of the very-few which could have the job done.
The final SPPV is very good indeed (both the speakers and amp were bought second hand). But the speakers alone... I wouldn't say so. At that time, my own £800 Mulidine (costing five time less) were much, much better. :)
Agreed. Often it is necessary, in purely SPPV terms at least, to take the holistic approach to system building.
A lot of people, some of my customers and to a degree myself included, do not worry about the money. It is a) the sound b) the looks and c) the pride in ownership that matters.
Dave, it isn't strictly a case of worrying about the money. If you sold a customer a system which in total cost, say, £60,000 and you were aware that from the range of products you are able to offer either
a) you could achieve the same level of performance for less expenditure
or
b) you could achieve a greater level of sonic performance for the same level of expenditure
and
you had not made the customer aware of either of the above, would this sit well with you and would you consider yourself to be offering the best service to all of your customers?
This would not sit well with me at all. In my line of work I meet passengers from the full socio-economic spectrum including the wealthiest for whom a tenner either way on the taxi fare is neither here nor there. Whilst I don't discount from the table of fares I always strive to offer the best value for money either by advising that there is another shorter route or recommending an equivalent or even better place that is perhaps nearer. Regardless of their means most customers appreciate the fact that I'm not trying to rip them off. Nobody, no matter how rich they are wants to think that someone is taking advantage of them for that is a mark of utmost disrespect.
Apart from simply establishing ability to pay at the published rate, I don't means test my customers. Do you?
I think there is a bit of reverse snobbery here, or "if I can't afford it, I don't like it" ?
No Dave there isn't. The sky is the limit regarding price provided there are gains in performance to be enjoyed for the expenditure. Are you saying that more expensive items that don't offer superior performance should still be purchased without the customer being aware of alternatives?
However we all know this is this "ethos" here and we have to like it or lump it. A pity though to have this restriction and "closed in" feeling , rather than let each and every member have their own ideas and thoughts.
How is it a restriction? With respect, I think you are allowing your emotions to cloud your judgement here. Hissy fits are not necessary. If the customer is fully informed of the alternatives then they can spend their money as they see fit. If someone wants to buy audio jewellery and is fully aware that this is exactly what they are doing then fine. As someone (like most of us) with limited means I certainly don't suffer the sour grapes syndrome. I don't covet bling but yet I can still appreciate superior sonic performance beyond what I can currently afford. I'm sure the same applies to most of the discerning folks here. In time and with patience many things are within reach anyway.
I'm disappointed Dave tbh, because I started this thread specifically with you in mind following our last telephone conversation when I thought we agreed that high-end SPPV does exist and that the forum would benefit from and extend its scope by embracing it, without necessarily losing sight of the principle behind maximum bang for buck.
In any case, anyone who just throws money at their hi-fi without being in the least bit discerning is unlikely to read these pages or indeed those of any hi-fi message board.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 15:12
They're your rules and yet you frequently fail to abide by them.
Personally I think that the forum should be called "Steve and Marco's Soapbox", because that is what this site seems to be turning into.
Is the next thread going to be "Teach Your Grandmother To Suck Eggs" perchance ?
Chris (Strat),
I think you are jumping on the AOS-antis apologist bandwaggon for the sake of it here. An ethos by definition is not so rigid as a set of rules. That's why we have an ethos to embrace in place of a set of rigid rules to blindly follow. If you see contradiction my guess is it is only because you fail to understand this principle.
I find myself once again somewhat taken aback by the latest 'AoS position statement'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Toy http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=95108#post95108)
Perhaps, like most things, SPPV is best determined by what could NOT possibly be classed as high SPPV, examples of which have been provided by Marco. The perception of value is subjective and relative, of course, but an element of consensus is possible nevertheless.
You are confusing the product with the salesman's pricing policy. Your statements would be truer if there were no second hand market.
Chris (TGW),
SPPV has been with us from the start. I simply felt it necessary to clarify further and extend the scope of SPPV to the high-end. The sky is the limit where SPPV is concerned provided the performance improves with the increase in cost even taking the law of diminishing returns into account.
An analogy: you can justify spending hundreds of pounds on a bottle of wine if you are discerning enough to appreciate that it is genuinely superior.
Indeed second hand buying is often a route to better value for money but all products begin their lives as new and the industry needs to be supported today to ensure that second-hand products are available tomorrow. I agree that comparisons can be made with older products as well as with new alternatives.
I must say I'm growing tired of being made to feel that I have to justify contributing to my own forum. :steam:
Beechwoods
17-01-2010, 15:40
Recognising the great value offered by equipment on the second hand market is a major part of what SPPV is all about for me. Often in this hobby, buying someone else's gear, as they upgrade, enables others to buy new, in a hopefully virtuous circle.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 16:50
For me SPPV is all about products that have designed to be soundwise excellent first. Everything about the product including components, design, build has been chosen with this idea in mind. What I'm against is products that are just priced high to give them kudos. Some products have both of these principles applied unfortunately, but buying them second hand makes them a good deal.
Paul, spot on. :)
If I won, say, £2 million on the lottery (and God willing one day I will...) I would be looking at spending between £100k and £200k on a system. So I am not going to be wasting time auditioning anything 'cheap'. But if I spent £150K, bought a system that I was very happy with, then heard another system that I preferred but that cost only £20K I'd be gutted. That is what I am interpreting SSPV to mean.
Martin, ditto. :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris@panteg http://theartofsound.net/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=95118#post95118)
The guy came and listened , liked it ' but when told how much (10,000) this was about 1996, he simply said ' too cheap ' and bought the keltik system instead .
Well, THAT is clearly against AoS principles, as I see it.
Dimitri,
Indeed but it would be entirely within our principles if the guy heard the Keltik system, decided it was definitely better than the 10k system before he bought it.
Indeed second hand buying is often a route to better value for money but all products begin their lives as new and the industry needs to be supported today to ensure that second-hand products are available tomorrow. I agree that comparisons can be made with older products as well as with new alternatives.[/B]
In lay mans terms then SPPV applies to all people on any budget whether they have £1000 or £100,000 to spend, trying to promote SPPV is where a forum like this comes into it's own and not the dealer, as most (the dealer) will only endorse the products they sell in there shop.
Yes of course there needs to be people out there that buy the new kit for the rest of us to enjoy what we do, but SPPV still or shoud applie to those buying new kit, but as it's been said before about people with money, price because it costs more and bling factor dictates choice rather than sound so SPPV goes out of the window
Any way i think we are starting to repeat each a bit other now
Nobody, no matter how rich they are wants to think that someone is taking advantage of them for that is a mark of utmost disrespect.
Indeed, Steve :)
That's *precisely* how it is for me. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy pretty much what I want when it comes to hi-fi, within reason - say, well into a five figure sum at any one time if I felt it necessary (and I've worked bloody hard for any money I've got!).
I choose not to spend those sorts of sums though because I like to be a bit cleverer than that, and also because I enjoy the process of employing a little 'lateral thinking', as this is immensely more satisfying than simply opening one's wallet all too eagerly and becoming some uncrupulous dealer's cash-cow and/or puppet! Sadly, there are a few such dealers around (who are in it for all the wrong reasons) - fortunately though, none on this forum.
However, if I was simply a 'cheque-book buyer' and someone who relied on dealers all the time for my hi-fi purchases, I'd need to know that I wasn't being ripped off, particularly by some of the 'London crew' dealers (I'll mention no more names) - people who perhaps might see me as no more than a 'pound sign' to fund their pension plans!
That would irk me no end and go very much against the grain no matter how much money I had... Therefore, if I were ever to drop, say £30k on a new pair of speakers, I'd need to have the satisfaction of knowing that my new £30k investment cost £30k for all the right reasons - namely that the biggest percentage of it represented 'bang for buck' and not someone's huge overheads, blatant profiteering, 'prestige value' or any other form of over-inflated pricing structure!
You know the sort of thing - it goes along these lines sometimes in the industry: 'What price should we charge for this CDP?' 'Erm, probably about £2k to cover our costs and make a decent profit'. 'Yes, but what I meant was what price do you think the market will stand?' 'Oh, probably £5k, given the prestige value of the brand.' 'Ok, let's call it £6k for good luck, and then we'll add on the V.A.T'.............. Bollocks to that shit!!! :mental:
I'd want to know that the bulk of my expenditure was paying towards what was 'underneath the hood', as it were, in terms of the highest quality components available, and also into the finest build quality, so that I ended up with a product designed on genuine principles, and that my new purchase offered seriously superb audio performance and was not merely a shiny hi-fi trinket!
And you can be damned sure that before setting foot on any dealer's premises that I'd have done my research thoroughly beforehand so that I already knew pretty much what I wanted and had all the info to hand - all the dealer would be doing, in effect, is facilitating the sale.
Anyway, I thought I'd just pop back and offer a few thoughts before nipping off again to listen to some choons! :cool:
Laters,
Marco.
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 17:13
Hi Steve
The irony was that frank felt he set up a great system , the customer absolutely loved it but when it came to the number's , he thought it was going to cost more ? and he wanted to spend more .
Without saying so ' Frank gave me the impression the guy was just showing off ' and he was very happy anyway ' well he would be .
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 17:27
I'd be the same tbh. Imagine you had a given budget, you heard something that blew you away for half that budget, would you not be curious to know how much better things could get for your money?
I don't see there's much to argue with here; it's just common sense and not chucking money at the problem.
The only caveat I'd have is the bit about diminishing returns. Let's say that a good single-source system can be put together for £1,000. To avoid diminishing returns, a £2,000 system would have to be twice as good, and a £10,000 ten times as good. It's hard to imagine that such proportionate benefits could be obtained up to a theoretical limit of £100,000, even if the £100,000 system was a lot better than the £1,000 one.
Indeed but it would be entirely within our principles if the guy heard the Keltik system, decided it was definitely better than the 10k system before he bought it.
Certainly, but then he wouldn't have said "too cheap", but rather "not good enough". ;)
I don't see there's much to argue with here; it's just common sense and not chucking money at the problem.
Welcome back :)
Indeed; however we're simply reiterating that even those who can afford to 'chuck money at the problem' (indeed quite a lot of it and as often as is necessary) care about getting a good deal, not being ripped off, and owning hi-fi equipment which delivers high SPPV.
The fact is this notion is not exclusive to the 'non-wealthy'.
Marco.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 19:53
Certainly, but then he wouldn't have said "too cheap", but rather "not good enough".
Not necessarily. We are not dealing in absolutes here. He was possibly saying or at least thinking, "bloody good but evidently I may be able to do even better for my available budget.
Welcome back :)
Indeed; however we're simply reiterating that even those who can afford to 'chuck money at the problem' (indeed quite a lot of it and as often as is necessary) care about getting a good deal, not being ripped off, and owning hi-fi equipment which delivers high SPPV.
The fact is this notion is not exclusive to the 'non-wealthy'.
Marco.
Of course, and I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. My point was that at some point up the hifi tree diminishing returns will set in, however much one applies SPPV principles (and the same applies to wine, cars,clothes and other consumer goods). Obviously for the very rich, this is less of an issue than it is to those on a tighter budget.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 19:56
Joe, you are quite correct. It is basic common sense, the OP was quite innocuous and by no means controversial and yet there is a really bad vibe on this thread.
Of course, and I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. My point was that at some point up the hifi tree diminishing returns will set in, however much one applies SPPV principles (and the same applies to wine, cars,clothes and other consumer goods). Obviously for the very rich, this is less of an issue than it is to those on a tighter budget.
Paying for the name outweights the quality in most cases.
Beechwoods
17-01-2010, 20:05
For me, diminishing returns doesn't conform to a linear scale. It's difficult in any case to place a scale on satisfaction - what is 'twice as good afterall'? How does one quanitify it? One way of looking at it is: would you spend half the value of your kit getting it serviced so that it improved just slightly - but enough so you knew that it was performing to it's best? That kind of maths works for me when I think of my tape decks. The improvement is no way near 50% or even 25% but the satisfaction of knowing that I'm getting the best out of my gear is well worth the money.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 20:12
Indeed. I think I covered the diminishing returns issue ealier.
SPPV still applies even if spending 10 times the amount only yields a 10% improvement in resolution - provided you do at least derive some benefit however seemingly miniscule and provided also that the same level of performance could not be achieved by spending less elsewhere.
It's not an exact science, but wine is an example where a much better bottle can be bought for £10 than for £5, partly because a greater proportion of the cost of the £5 bottle goes on duty.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 20:34
Good point re. excise duty on wine skewing the value. I did note that cheap wine is much cheaper in France and the price of better wine is comparable.
"It isn't about assembling a system on the cheap, it's about making every pound spent count."
Steve,
that's very easy to say,but then I look at the picture of your CD player and DAC
teetering on the edges of that quadrashpere rack and think "is that making every pound spent count,
couldn't your money be spent on a shelf that actually supports the items placed on it?"
I must say I'm growing tired of being made to feel that I have to justify contributing to my own forum. :steam:
Do you know what, before too long, if this forum keeps going the way it seems to be going the last few weeks, there will be no need at all, because no one else will stick around - and that will be without you having to ban people at all!
EDIT: Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I can only tell it how I feel it - but "Steve & Marco are the high-priests of hifi and you should worship at our altar" is how I personally feel several threads and a lot of posts have come across recently.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 21:25
Mark, I have a spare shelf but if you notice the shelves have holes in them. They are there to reduce mass and sound better as a result. As such the DAC casework was actually desined to sit on the edge of the hole. All four of its feet are making contact with the surface of the shelf.
Hi Joe,
Of course, and I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. My point was that at some point up the hifi tree diminishing returns will set in, however much one applies SPPV principles (and the same applies to wine, cars,clothes and other consumer goods). Obviously for the very rich, this is less of an issue than it is to those on a tighter budget.
Yes, but you're missing a crucial nuance of the discussion; namely that our views on SPPV are not in any way shape or form about how much disposable income or wealth one has, or about how much something costs.
Let me give you a real life example of what I'm referring to....
If anyone here knows Chester, I've got several clients that regularly buy corporate and private artwork from me who live in the houses overlooking Chester racecourse - you're talking about properties that range approximately between two and five million pounds.
These guys are multi-millionaires - no question whatsoever.
Now I can tell you beyond any doubt through years of experience that, despite being wealthier than in the wildest dreams of you or me, they do not part with their money easily!
I assure you that I have far more difficulty in closing an £80k hotel chain contract, for various corporate artwork, from millionaires, than a £1000 one from 'Joe Bloggs' for decorating his new house - which goes to prove that not everyone who has vast sums of disposable income doesn't care about how much what they buy costs, as Dave appears to be suggesting :)
Returning to the AoS view of 'SPPV', it is essentially this:
It's about having the satisfaction of knowing that whatever equipment, speakers, or anything else one has bought, has been built with passion to represent the finest example of a designer's talents at a given price point, whether that's £1000 or £100,000 - and not merely a passionless run-of-the-mill 'me too' product, born from the same universal parts bin as every other similar 'Tom, Dick and Harry' product on the market, or some 'puffed-up' audiophile jewellery designed for little purpose other than to provide the buyer with an over-inflated sense of self-worth (and let's not kid ourselves on, there are products exactly like this on the market! And there are others of course, too). It's the latter that we're interested in here.
Acknowledge and celebrate only that which is truly excellent (at its given price point) and designed for honourable reasons, regardless of its retail price.
The Beresford DAC, therefore, qualifies at £250, just as the cost-no-object 'statement' Continuum turntable does at over £100k (and much more else between).
*That*, in a nutshell, is 'SPPV' according to AoS. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).
Marco.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 21:35
Alex, perhaps you'd like to pop over to the Preaching thread and explain why you think we are about to see some kind of mass exodus.
I thank you for your continued support.
Hi Joe,
Yes, but you're missing a crucial nuance of the discussion; namely that our views on SPPV are not in any way shape or form about how much disposable income or wealth one has, or about how much something costs.
I guess I had in mind the MAD trade ad for ATC speakers:
'A customer of mine changed his mind in color, so he pay more than £7k on your behalf'
Someone there has essentially thrown away most of my disposable annual income because he didn't like the finish of a pair of speakers. Now, you may say that he is not displaying sound SPPV principles, but in his case £7k is small change, and SPPV is not an issue. Some rich people are 'careful' with their money, it's true, but others chuck it around as if it's going out of fashion.
Some rich people are 'careful' with their money, it's true, but others chuck it around as if it's going out of fashion.
That's exactly it! As long as one acknowledges that both types of those people exist.
However, in my personal experience, I've met far more of the former in business than the latter, which is probably why I'm NOT a millionaire! ;)
Marco.
Alan Sircom
17-01-2010, 21:50
Diminishing returns kick in just beyond the amount of money the individual thinks reasonable for a thing. That's very different from how much that person can really afford. Both goalposts shift with time, due to hopefully increased disposable income.
There's no other rubric for working this through. You can afford a Fiat and aspire to a Mercedes, but think a Lambo is excessive. Then you get that promotion; now you drive a BMW and aspire to a Lambo, but think a Roller is excessive. Then you win the lottery, drive a Lmbo and your chauffeur drives you round in a Roller and now you can't understand how you could have possibly slummed it in a Fiat only a few short years ago.
I have never met anyone who decided their high-end system had reached past the Law of Diminishing Returns. People buying Wilson Alexandrias genuinely think they are buying a product way (and financially justifiably) better than the MAXXes, the Sasha and so on.
Do you know what, before too long, if this forum keeps going the way it seems to be going the last few weeks, there will be no need at all, because no one else will stick around - and that will be without you having to ban people at all!
EDIT: Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I can only tell it how I feel it - but "Steve & Marco are the high-priests of hifi and you should worship at our altar" is how I personally feel several threads and a lot of posts have come across recently.
I must admit to feeling the same recently, but perhaps some people don't wont to rock the boat or upset those in control by posting their feelings:(
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 22:13
Jon, I guess you are faced with a choice here of continuing to say nothing or jumping onto the bandwaggon.
There is a separate thread dedicated to this issue here in Blank Canvass.
I must admit to feeling the same recently, but perhaps some people don't wont to rock the boat or upset those in control by posting their feelings:(
I will continue to post what I feel.
What I feel at present is that there's bit a bit too much navel-gazing going on and way too little discussion of audio and music, and I don't regard myself as exactly faultless here.
Diminishing returns kick in just beyond the amount of money the individual thinks reasonable for a thing. That's very different from how much that person can really afford. Both goalposts shift with time, due to hopefully increased disposable income.
Exactly - and each to his or her own, Alan.
Having (hopefully!) now successfully defined how AoS stands on 'sound-per-pound' value with hi-fi equipment, I'm merely showing that not everyone who's seriously wealthy chucks their money around as if it were going out of fashion!
One can be discerning, careful financially, and wealthy.
Marco.
One can be discerning, careful financially, and wealthy.
Marco.
Or, in my case, none of the above!
Do you know what, before too long, if this forum keeps going the way it seems to be going the last few weeks, there will be no need at all, because no one else will stick around - and that will be without you having to ban people at all!
EDIT: Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, but I can only tell it how I feel it - but "Steve & Marco are the high-priests of hifi and you should worship at our altar" is how I personally feel several threads and a lot of posts have come across recently.
Another +1 from me I'm afraid. :(
Isnt there a subtle danger of different opinions being cast aside as it doesn't fit in with the Ethos?
If its organic then cant it accomodate differeing views?
After all, its not set in stone as you say.
I will continue to post what I feel.
What I feel at present is that there's bit a bit too much navel-gazing going on and way too little discussion of audio and music, and I don't regard myself as exactly faultless here.
Point taken, Joe, and respect for being so honest.
Rest assured that we'll take this on board, and also comments from other members such as Alex and Jon :)
Emotive and somewhat controversial topics such as this tend to divide opinion quite sharply and can often lead to strong feelings being expressed one way or the other, but that's no reason for not discussing and shying away from them....
It's simply a matter of taking everyone's feelings on board and granting them due respect, which we always will do.
Marco.
Another +1 from me I'm afraid. :(
Isnt there a subtle danger of different opinions being cast aside as it doesn't fit in with the Ethos?
If its organic then cant it accomodate differeing views?
After all, its not set in stone as you say.
Ok... Can you give me a example of the above in bold, please, and where in the thread it has occurred?
What exactly is it that's being said here you don't agree with, Gary - or more to the point - what is your opinion on SPPV?
Let's get to the bottom of this. I'm just trying to understand where people with an alternative viewpoint are coming from :)
Marco.
Can someone explain to me why are we trying to define SPPV in an absolute way ?
Although I can see the point in discussing (and challenging) different views, as this process is an enrichment process. This way we can all toggle through different views, eventually having a temporary opinion on the matter. As Alan says, SPPV is a "moving view" not something absolute, timeless and immutable.
Instead, we started the thread by challenging an "absolute definition"... I'm not even sure such an absolute definition exists for mutating notions like SPPV ! In fact, I think it is very much the contrary, even.
Jon, I guess you are faced with a choice here of continuing to say nothing or jumping onto the bandwaggon.
There is a separate thread dedicated to this issue here in Blank Canvass.
I'm not jumping on the bandwagon Steve i have tried to be impartial, but genuinly feel that yours and Marco's postings of recent have put people off contributing to this forum without reprisals, i understand where you are coming from some of the time but not all off the time, it sometimes comes across as agressive and what you think is the gospel truth on occasions, the postings on flat earth and sppv are a point in case to name a couple.
I enjoy my banter on here with other like minded people, but please don't ram it down our throats when you preach your version of events.
Oh dear i feel a bollicking coming on
Hi Dimitri,
Can someone explain to me why are we trying to define SPPV in an absolute way ?
It's not intended as "absolute" in any way; merely a statement of our personal beliefs which in this instance happen also to be those of AoS.
People are perfectly entitled to disagree, Dimitri, and indeed we're inviting precisely that to challenge each other's views (politely and respectfully) on the subject, so we can all learn new ideas or alternative ways of looking at things...
Isn't that what life, never mind audio, is all about?
Discussions here are often emotive and controversial, and involve abandoning comfort zones and exposing one's beliefs to the cold light of scrutiny. Whilst we will always respect the alternative views of others on any given subject - we will not shy away from discussing contentious subjects we're passionate about for fear of 'upsetting' some people's delicate sensibilities!
The problem in this thread, however, is instead of offering an alternative equally valid opinion, some people appear to be bypassing that and instead castigating us for having the audacity to express ours........ :scratch:
Instead of complaining about views you disagree with, state instead what you think! That, in my opinion, is what should be happening here, therefore could people please take this on board? :)
Marco.
P.S Jon - fair point, mate, but could you please take into consideration what I've written above? This also applies to Alex and Gary - Cheers.
Steve Toy
17-01-2010, 23:08
Marco, there's a "Preaching" thread for this discussion enabling this thread not to be derailed.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5161
The problem, however, is instead of offering an alternative equally valid opinion, some people appear to be bypassing that and instead castigating us for having the audacity to express ours........ :scratch:
I never felt it this way... :scratch:
For the rest, I continue on the thread Steve points to.
Thanks, Steve. I've noticed it, but I'd rather say what I have to say here (and allow others to respond to that here if they wish), rather than spreading the discussion over two threads :)
You carry on over there though if you think it's a good idea.
Marco.
Hi Dimitri,
I never felt it this way...
Well that's how we're interpreting the 'backlash'! ;)
Where are people's alternative views then on SPPV? I don't see any so far - only rampant criticism of ours (or rather of us daring to express ours).
Oh the unfortunate inadequacies sometimes of the written word and its many possible misinterpretations........... :(
Marco.
Hi Dimitri,
Well that's how we're interpreting the 'backlash' we're getting! ;)
Where are people's alternative views then on SPPV? I don't see any so far - only criticism of ours (or rather of us expressing ours).
Oh, the unfortunate inadequacies sometimes of the written word and its many possible misinterpretations........... :(
Marco.
Marco, I guess it's a problem of words (the vocabulary) used to express certain points of view. Indeed, you *may* be quite sharp or dry on certain occasions, without any explicit reason.
When I say "I didn't felt it this way", I mean, I always suppose that I understood badly. Some other people don't have my difficulties and may see it otherwise...
In a way, I am lucky. :)
That's cool, Dimitri :)
Like I said, all I'm asking for is people to offer their equally valid alternative views on the thread topic, rather than moaning about Steve or me expressing ours.
So far, I can see plenty evidence of the latter but very little of the former, so it would be nice if the balance was redressed a little in that respect.
Someone tell me if I'm being unreasonable here?
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
18-01-2010, 00:10
This thing that you have chosen to call SPPV - a little unwieldy but I can't think of anything better.......
......anyway, not everyone (& I don't include myself in this) sees the ownership of an expensive hi-fi as purely about getting the best sound. Many other people have many, many other reasons for making the choices they make. This is why the market exists for what you describe as badge-snob gear. Let 'em get on with it, I say. For those who want the best sound they can make for their budget, there are always places to find out about the good stuff. Many of us made relatively poor choices before we found our 'one true path' (!!!!!!!!).
The Grand Wazoo
18-01-2010, 00:12
Was that moan free enough for you?
Excellent - just what I was looking for, matey! I'll get to that tomorrow - going off to bed now :goodnight:
Marco.
Hi Chris,
......anyway, not everyone (& I don't include myself in this) sees the ownership of an expensive hi-fi as purely about getting the best sound. Many other people have many, many other reasons for making the choices they make.
Indeed. And I respect their right to make those choices, as they're just as valid as Steve's or mine. MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT. The bottom line is that people can spend their money how they want on whatever they like!
*However* that doesn't mean that either Steve or I (or indeed anyone else) should feel obliged to agree with them, or shouldn't seek to challenge those choices if or when we see fit, and attempt instead to focus people's attention (no more than that, although it's being taken rather differently, and indeed wrongly, by some people), on getting the best sound for your pound.
The bottom line too, is that we're entitled to express our views here, just as others are to disagree with them - but I'd like to see more agreeing or disagreeing with our views, than moans about us expressing them in the first place... I don't think I'm being unfair here, am I? Or if so, say so! :)
This is why the market exists for what you describe as badge-snob gear. Let 'em get on with it, I say. For those who want the best sound they can make for their budget, there are always places to find out about the good stuff.
I have no problem with that whatsoever, but if we have a point to make to support our contrary and equally valid system building methodology then we're entitled to make it without receiving, in our opinion, rather unjustified backlash for daring to say what we think.
It's unfair that just because some people don't appear to want to hear what we think on this subject (or whatever else is going on here) that it should stifle our right to say it. I trust you can understand and appreciate where I'm coming from. It's getting to the stage that we're almost afraid to open our mouths for fear of 'upsetting' someone!
That's hardly a healthy state of affairs, Chris, is it?
[Many of us made relatively poor choices before we found our 'one true path' (!!!!!!!!).
I'd like to hear about some of this, and people's various journeys in that respect, as it would help people who've generally had more positive experiences so far to better appreciate where others are coming from...
So guys, please, can we move on constructively with this debate and start discussing each other's valid viewpoints on SPPV instead of the negative stuff that's largely been happening so far?
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
The Grand Wazoo
18-01-2010, 07:43
Marco, for a response to most of what you say here, see my post on the 'Preaching' thread.
Chris,
As I'm not contributing to the other thread (for reasons previously stated), I'd prefer it if you would tackle the specific points I've raised in my last post by quoting and answering them here - cheers! :)
Marco.
P.S Please bear in mind that I won't get an opportunity to deal with your reply until later this evening, as I have a busy day ahead.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate it if Dave C addressed this earlier comment from Steve:
I'm disappointed Dave tbh, because I started this thread specifically with you in mind following our last telephone conversation when I thought we agreed that high-end SPPV does exist and that the forum would benefit from and extend its scope by embracing it, without necessarily losing sight of the principle behind maximum bang for buck.
From what I can see, Dave, you've somewhat thrown what you apparently agreed on the phone back in Steve's face...... :scratch:
Could you please explain why, or have I got it wrong? :)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
18-01-2010, 08:57
Hi Marco
I'm disappointed with the words Steve used. And I'm disappointed of your comments on what I thought was a private phone call. And I'm disappointed with the whole 8 pages of this thread.
Steve must have started this thread as a discussion point and the majority of the responses were more in line with my thoughts. But as usual they are disagreed with by Steve and Marco.
I still stand by my comments in post #3 and especially my post #5, I do appreciate the opportunity to express them here.
As I said in post #3 " However we all know this is this "ethos" here and we have to like it or lump it." and this is clearly true, nothing wrong with that? Most of us are still here, so it must work?
In summary, my posts #3 and #5 are my views, I believe they are simple, precise and an honest reply to the discussion started by Steve.
So why not let sleeping dogs lie, and not to rake over old coals. Just accept it and move on. I have no more to say.
Regards
Dave
Hi Dave,
I'm disappointed with the words Steve used. And I'm disappointed of your comments on what I thought was a private phone call.
Well, the only reason it was brought up is because we were equally "disappointed" in some ways with your reaction to our views on the thread topic! ;)
Anyway, as you say, let sleeping dogs lie :)
Ok, people must dash!!
Laters,
Marco.
Steve Toy
18-01-2010, 09:13
Dave, your request that we widen the scope of the forum to include high-end kit (that still offers high performance even for a higher price tag) was a reasonable request and I saw no reason why you should wish to treat it as a confidential matter.
I only refered to the conversation when my responding to your request was effectively thrown back in my face.
Are you saying that you champion expensive yet relatively poor-performing hi-fi?
Just to provide some focus here I woud not place Cabasse la Sphere speakers, Focal Maestro Utopias or amplifiers by Kondo in such a category as they are benchmark products and as such epitomise high-end SPPV.
Indeed, probably the highest SPPV product in existence (it's not hi-fi) is the Bugatti Veyron - car costing a million pounds to buy yet costs considerably more than that to build.
Dave Cawley
18-01-2010, 09:16
Are you saying that you champion expensive yet relatively poor-performing hi-fi?
Steve, give it a rest mate!
Dave
All this wants me to ditch me vinyl and rip all my CD's to a computer, buy an equaliser (in addition to the one on i-tunes) and play the whole loit through ADM9.1's.....:lol:
There, I think I've broken most of the "rules" now. oh yes, and get some Wilson System 8's with the most vulgar krell amplification I can find (ugghh) wired with the top Nordost "strings" I can find.......:D
Naughty Naughty...
Private "off Forum" business Sir!
There's two sides to every story and and Dave now feels he has to justify something he said in private..
Hope you see this comment for how it was meant and nothing personal Marco.
*EDIT* Just saw Daves wish to "let sleeping dogs lie", no need to respond to this post as that matters done.
Thanks.
:)
In the meantime, I'd appreciate it if Dave C addressed this earlier comment from Steve:
From what I can see, Dave, you've somewhat thrown what you apparently agreed on the phone back in Steve's face...... :scratch:
Could you please explain why, or have I got it wrong? :)
Marco.
Here's an alternative view, which I haven't fully thought through yet. If SPPV relates to the enjoyment you get from your system, and all its parts, then having a badged sytem could be perfect. If what you want is a Linn, or Naim, or even Goodmans system, and that's what you get and you get huge enjoyment out of it, then the SPPV is high.
I think that when you start considering badged systems you may have to consider more than the sound you get out of it in guessing/assessing SPPV. It feels odd to me to say that, because the sound should be the most important thing. But, actually, that may not be the case for everyone. The prestige in owning a badged piece of kit may be equally as important. This can mean someone buys something very very expensive because they can, and the value of the kit is the key (not the sound). It can also mean somebody buying a badged piece of kit secondhand at a knockdown price because they always wanted one previously but could never afford it (even if now it sounds awful).
Both these options provide SPPV because, perversely, they give great value/meaning to the owner beyond the sound being achieved.
Such concepts as ‘worth’ and ‘value’ are essentially subjective in audio as in any other area.
Leaving aside cosmetic, pride of ownership and ‘badge’ factors, if you’re presented with a choice of items at different price levels that offer exactly the same levels of performance, build and reliability, it would be strange to choose the more expensive one. However, assuming there is a difference in sound, then you’re back to personal preference as to which represents best value in terms of the sound that you, as an individual, prefer.
That’s why lists of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ SPPV products are IMO pointless; they can only be truly valid for one person (in the context of one system, in one room).
That reflects my opinion, too:
A good SPPV can only be valid for one person at a specific point in time (in the context of one system, in one room).
I just added 'at a specific point in time' which means someone's taste/finance/mood in choosing may vary.
anthonyTD
18-01-2010, 15:16
hi all,
well,,, after spending an hour or so reading through the bones of this thread i can understand why some of you members here find it dificult to embrace the opinions of the shall we say "more prominent characters" here but from what i have experienced in the world of high end hi fi a product is purchased for two main reasons both are miles apart but relevent never the less, the first being the potential purchaser who is very passionate about music and therefore wants to purchase the best product performance wise he can to obtain a higher level of listening pleasure than he is currently experiencing with his present kit.
secondly you have the customer who likes music but is also very concious of what others think of him and therefore the things he owns, this type of customer will often seek out components that are very well known, very expensive, with looks to match, now in the real world there is nothing wrong in my mind with either type i have mentioned, but this forum will always lean to the former type because it was set up by people who are of the former thinking...
A...
hi all,
well,,, after spending an hour or so reading through the bones of this thread i can understand why some of you members here find it dificult to embrace the opinions of the shall we say "more prominent characters" here but from what i have experienced in the world of high end hi fi a product is purchased for two main reasons both are miles apart but relevent never the less, the first being the potential purchaser who is very passionate about music and therefore wants to purchase the best product performance wise he can to obtain a higher level of listening pleasure than he is currently experiencing with his present kit.
secondly you have the customer who likes music but is also very concious of what others think of him and therefore the things he owns, this type of customer will often seek out components that are very well known, very expensive, with looks to match, now in the real world there is nothing wrong in my mind with either type i have mentioned, but this forum will always lean to the latter type because it was set up by people who are of the latter thinking...
A...
I think you mean 'the former' ie 'the first being the potential purchaser who is very passionate about music and therefore wants to purchase the best product performance wise he can to obtain a higher level of listening pleasure than he is currently experiencing with his present kit.'
anthonyTD
18-01-2010, 15:24
I think you mean 'the former' ie 'the first being the potential purchaser who is very passionate about music and therefore wants to purchase the best product performance wise he can to obtain a higher level of listening pleasure than he is currently experiencing with his present kit.'
done!;)
A...
The Grand Wazoo
18-01-2010, 17:00
Marco,
Sorry for the late reply.
As far as I can see no-one has a problem with your (& of course Steve's) right to say whatever you want here – God forbid. Moreover, I don't actually think anyone fundamentally disagrees with the principles that you've espoused in this thread, the Ethos thread, or the 'Is the Marco System the Best Thing……..' thread. In fact I think that most of us generally agree wholeheartedly with those principles.
Marco: The bottom line too, is that we're entitled to express our views here, just as others are to disagree with them - but I'd like to see more agreeing or disagreeing with our views, than moans about us expressing them in the first place... I don't think I'm being unfair here, am I? Or if so, say so!
What troubles me and others, I think, is the way that these thoughts have been presented. We are not 'moaning', as you've called it, about what you say at all.
Marco:………but if we have a point to make to support our contrary and equally valid system building methodology then we're entitled to make it without receiving, in our opinion, rather unjustified backlash for daring to say what we think
It's unfair that just because some people don't appear to want to hear what we think on this subject (or whatever else is going on here) that it should stifle our right to say it. I trust you can understand and appreciate where I'm coming from. It's getting to the stage that we're almost afraid to open our mouths for fear of 'upsetting' someone!
As I said on Steve's 'Preaching' thread (and he hasn't responded to it, so I'm happy to quote it here):
TGW: I really hope no-one falls out or leaves AoS over all of this.
Re. your exasperation at having to justify your statements on your own forum - I think I speak for everyone here if I say of course everyone expects you to be able to say whatever you like, and, moreover, we are all thankful to you and Marco for allowing us to use this place to express ourselves too.
But just a few discussions lately have developed into what could be interpreted as a Bush-style 'either you're with us or you're against us' stance. The inference being something along the lines of: '.....and if you're against us, then what the hell are you doing here?'
In the three cases I mention, this hasn't so much come across in the original post, but a few exchanges further on when you're trying to explain in greater detail what you mean, you often use phrases such as, "Here on the AoS we believe……." Or "Our views, which in this case happen to be the views of the AoS". This immediately makes the discussion change gear, placing everyone involved into 'Them & Us' mode.
Next up comes the point where we're made to feel "…….if you don't agree with this, then you're free to go away elsewhere, because it seems like you might just not fit in" or in other words, - it's my way or the highway. That might not be what you're trying to say at all, but that's often what it feels like.
The point is that most of us usually do agree! But this feeling of confrontation causes discomfort.
The thing that really made me twitch was when a thread was started and steered with the (later expressed) intention of sending a message to members of another forum who had apparently got the wrong end of the stick about your views. I felt as though an attempt was being made to manipulate me and other members in a way which I feel is pretty low.
Hopefully this has shed a little light on things. I just want to help get AoS back to the friendly place it was.
What I am thankful for is that I feel you & I know each other well enough that I can say these things. Maybe some of the other guys feel don't feel able to do this for fear of causing a greater upset.
........or maybe I'm out on a limb & talking rubbish!
Good post Chris, and your not talking rubbish, i did read the postings on another forum which is the one i think you are referring to and did think that they where being a bit childish if thats the right word for it
Good post well put.
Perceptions can be just as important as intent, and may seem to be the case here, at least for some.
A healthy injection of self irony would be good too Mods!
:)
The Grand Wazoo
18-01-2010, 23:41
OK, so how does this fit with your SPPV thoughts?
Accuphase equipment is generally thought by those who have experience of it to be excellent. I happen to agree, but I also think it's overpriced in the UK - as do others whose opinion I respect. However, it's still great hi-fi. One of the things I place a high value in is how things are built and unfortunately, I cannot have the confidence I need in an expensive item that's built like it was knocked up in a nursery school with biscuit tins.
Your notion of 'SPPV' avoids any considerations other than sound quality.
My notion of 'value for money' takes these other matters into consideration. Sound quality is important to me, but it's not the only factor in choosing something that will cost a significant amount and will stay with me for many years (if I make the right choice).
I feel I made the correct choice with my CD player, I love what it does and how it feels to use it, but I wouldn't have paid the full asking price for it. On the other hand, I wouldn't buy something for that kind of lolly that's built like a toy even if it sounded better than anything else out there. I suspect that this is true for most people here, you included. There are always other factors at work.
So, yes, I think your theory of 'SPPV' has a place but only up to a point.
PS - I'd appreciate your thoughts on my other post above, if you've the time.
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 01:33
Only the strength of the yen could really preclude Accuphase from offering SPPV and other considerations as stated.
I too rate most of what has been made by this brand.
jandl100
19-01-2010, 10:25
High SPPV has always been near the top of my agenda, usually at the top - and is the main reason (rightly or wrongly) why I never had much interest in the brand until a competitively priced Chord amp came along on eBay just as my annual hifi budget was about to be topped up! I thought that most of the RRP was going into the blingy casework - hence low SPPV. .... Nice sounding amp, though! :)
jandl100
19-01-2010, 10:28
... also a Box Swapper like me can have a rather different take on SPPV - what also matters is whether I can sell it on for the same sort of amount that I paid for it! :)
Steve Toy
19-01-2010, 14:41
It is agreed that as well as sounding great hi-fi components should also be reliable, long-lasting and safe.
Phil Bishop
20-01-2010, 10:14
High SPPV has always been near the top of my agenda, usually at the top - and is the main reason (rightly or wrongly) why I never had much interest in the brand until a competitively priced Chord amp came along on eBay just as my annual hifi budget was about to be topped up! I thought that most of the RRP was going into the blingy casework - hence low SPPV. .... Nice sounding amp, though! :)
Aaaah, "blingy casework" - I am glad someone else raised this. I have been amazed at the SPPV of my latest AVI N5.2.1 system (see http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4552). This entire system cost me little more than I paid for a single Audiolab monoblock 10 to 15 years ago. The system includes DAC, pre-amp, three power amps, Neutron 5speakers and 10" sub. It is one of the best sounding and most flexible systems I have heard. So why such incredible SPPV? Simple really:
- sell direct, no dealer mark-up
- cut out the "bling" (although the finish is still great)
- all components are designed to work perfectly with each other - no wasting time and money trying to find complimentary separates
I know a lot of the fun for many AOS members is mixing and matching but in my experience this can prove pretty expensive with the box swapping and a bit obsessive. Personally, I am very pleased to have ditched the separates.
Phil
Rare Bird
20-01-2010, 15:44
It is agreed that as well as sounding great hi-fi components should also be reliable
Which a lot aint, i would never expect more than 5 years constant use for a lot of modern gear.
It is agreed that as well as sounding great hi-fi components should also be long-lasting
Why i opt for vintage mainly
Which a lot aint, i would never expect more than 5 years constant use for a lot of modern gear.
Well, not sure. My dac is 10 years old, and is almost powered 24/7.
I have plenty of "cheap" mainstream gear (Sony SACD, Onkyo CDP) which never had problems and still work after 15-20 years of daily use... :scratch:
My upstairs system is 12 years old minimum; never had a fault with any of it. Downstairs system is newer but all at least 5 years old. The only problems I've had have been with a 'temperamental' valve power amp.
Don't get me started on kettles and toasters though ...
Often it is necessary, in purely SPPV terms at least, to take the holistic approach to system building.
Absolutely agree. In fact, surely this is always necessary? I know that any of my system components could be evaluated and found wanting in the context of another quite different system or listener's expectations. However, in the context of my system each and every component offers excellent SPPV despite not being cheap at all. Synergy is everything!
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 21:37
Absolutely agree. In fact, surely this is always necessary? I know that any of my system components could be evaluated and found wanting in the context of another quite different system or listener's expectations. However, in the context of my system each and every component offers excellent SPPV despite not being cheap at all. Synergy is everything!
Most important factor at any price point. Each item must match each other, and the room. If you get this wrong all else is a waste of time and money imho.
Regards D S D L
Yep, I also agree with that 100% :)
Isn't it wonderful that so many great minds here think alike! ;)
Marco.
Dave Cawley
20-01-2010, 21:49
Guys
I have to say the "holistic approach" is purely my concept, I was the first and only person on the web to mention this (in several places) and I claim the originality of it. Please don't grab it and use it. I simply do not subscribe to SPPV and to closing threads, and hopefully this thread won't be prematurely closed?
If you agree with my unique and traceable holistic approach, then you need a new definition of objective and subjective. How do you characterise me? I measure relentlessly, and yet at the M.A.D. dinner, who was it who complained about the music and the amplifier speaker match?
Dave
Dave, mate, we luvs ya, but "holistic approach" is just another description for synergy! If you want to claim it as your own, you might want to pop one of these on the end: ®.
'Holistic approach®', as defined by Dave Cawley of Sound Hi-fi. There - it looks quite good, actually! ;)
What do you make of Goldmund and Lexicon (amongst others) ripping people off with rebadged products?
Marco.
P.S We let the 'Preaching' thread go for 14 pages until it had served its purpose. Not many other forums would allow such open and lengthy criticism of those who own the site. We can do it, and derive value from it, because we have a good rapport with our members and so they appreciate having the facility to offer such feedback.
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 22:04
Guys
I have to say the "holistic approach" is purely my concept, I was the first and only person on the web to mention this (in several places) and I claim the originality of it. Please don't grab it and use it. I simply do not subscribe to SPPV and to closing threads, and hopefully this thread won't be prematurely closed?
If you agree with my unique and traceable holistic approach, then you need a new definition of objective and subjective. How do you characterise me? I measure relentlessly, and yet at the M.A.D. dinner, who was it who complained about the music and the amplifier speaker match?
Dave
Sorry what ? What an unbelievable statement :(
With all due respect Dave...any decent dealer/enthusiast has used this approach both in the present and the past...
For instance I myself have taken this approach since entering the trade, from being relatively new to audio back in the late 80's, and once I grasped the complexity of the detail in what makes or breaks a system..this was the only approach to take. Viewing the whole and not the parts. Never assuming compatibility and always testing things out. This includes the room, cables and any other factors that might effect things.
You may want to claim this approach, but you can't...sorry, but before I even knew about you, I and others have been doing this...including in my postings on AOS, though I would not use the trendy New Age twadle term Holistic...yuck !
The word as Marco typed above is Synergy....thats what we look for, and need for every thing to work.
Regards D S D L
How do you think Julian and Ivor made their fortunes, along with the first wave of supporting dealers? Their stuff worked well together for the young and slightly ageing hippy types who bought into their system approach and the spell only broke when Ivor launched his amps, which Naim had no part in designing or making (the repercussions were horrendous I remember as I was caught up in it...:()
Certainly, my hodge podge stereo works as a whole and I'm delighted with it.
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 22:16
How do you think Julian and Ivor made their fortunes, along with the first wave of supporting dealers? Their stuff worked well together for the young and slightly ageing hippy types who bought into their system approach and the spell only broke when Ivor launched his amps, which Naim had no part in designing or making (the repercussions were horrendous I remember as I was caught up in it...:()
Certainly, my hodge podge stereo works as a whole and I'm delighted with it.
The first experts at this I came across were Peter Q and Guy Adams... They did this with Audio Innovations, Audio note cabling, Snell, Voyd and Pirate Stands. At the time one of the most synergistic set ups from any manufacturer dealer...most of whom sell brands not synergistic set ups. Was true then and is still mostly true. Go to any show and their brands just don't work together.
Regards D S D L
Peter Q has a lot to answer for as well ;)
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 22:23
Peter Q has a lot to answer for as well ;)
True....;) :(
Regards D S D L
Peter Q has a lot to answer for as well ;)
In what way? please enlighten me
The Grand Wazoo
20-01-2010, 22:33
Guys, I think Dave C was referring to his 'if it measures good & sounds good' statements wasn't he?
What do I think about this? - I've always thought the phrase 'The Holeeeeestic Approach' should be spoken in a very strong cartoon Mexican accent. (Go on, try it for yourself, you'll see what I mean)
Beechwoods
20-01-2010, 22:39
http://www.coated.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/speedy-gonzales.jpg
Hmmm...
What do I think about this? - I've always thought the phrase 'The Holeeeeestic Approach' should be spoken in a very strong cartoon Mexican accent. (Go on, try it for yourself, you'll see what I mean)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaxURLFn6jU
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 22:47
In what way? please enlighten me
Hi Jon
I am afraid I for one would not be prepared to talk about this in public and I suggest Dave (DSJR), does not either.
Sorry.
Regards D S D L
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 22:49
Guys, I think Dave C was referring to his 'if it measures good & sounds good' statements wasn't he?
What do I think about this? - I've always thought the phrase 'The Holeeeeestic Approach' should be spoken in a very strong cartoon Mexican accent. (Go on, try it for yourself, you'll see what I mean)
1st point...Maybe, but thats not what he said though :sofa:
2nd point.... :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
Regards D S D L
Hi Jon
I am afraid I for one would not be prepared to talk about this in public and I suggest Dave (DSJR), does not either.
Sorry.
Regards D S D L
ooowh the plot thickens
Dave Cawley
20-01-2010, 23:03
Thanks Marco, you (& wazoo) were the only ones to actually read my posts! Respect man.........
Dave
Steve Toy
20-01-2010, 23:10
I have used the words holistic and approach on the odd occasion over the last ten years that I've been contributing on audio forums and I'm certainly not alone. The expression is unoriginal almost to the point of being cliche. Thus Dave's claim to be its origin is frankly laughable.
Dave Cawley
20-01-2010, 23:15
Oh, the moderators are ganging up on me again, Marco excepted! Another pop Steve?
Dave
Spectral Morn
20-01-2010, 23:18
I have used the words holistic and approach on the odd occasion over the last ten years that I've been contributing on audio forums and I'm certainly not alone. The expression is unoriginal almost to the point of being cliche. Thus Dave's claim to be its origin is frankly laughable.
Indeed.
However Dave is probably/possibly referring to designing and listening (many do that..Not many don't) and probably using measurements in selling too (not sure how many do that). However as quite often his posts are sometimes very cryptic, so its not always clear what he means.
However I too feel he can't claim this term or approach in the context he, I think meant it in, as his original idea...sorry no.
And no ones having a pop at you Dave. All I am doing, and I suspect Steve is doing is challenging your statement..thats all.
Regards D S D L
It nice to put a face on an expression ! :)
Steve Toy
21-01-2010, 01:22
Thanks Marco, you (& wazoo) were the only ones to actually read my posts! Respect man.........
I read your posts.....
Oh, the moderators are ganging up on me again, Marco excepted! Another pop Steve?
More the other way round. I use the term holistic approach and you then virtually accuse me of plagiarism.
I once met the bloke who coined the phrase "small is beautiful."
I've yet to meet or even speak to the bloke, if indeed it was a bloke and if indeed s/he is still alive who coined the term, "holistic approach."
Even in the specific context of hi-fi system building you definitely were not the first.
Steve Toy
21-01-2010, 01:26
It nice to put a face on an expression !
nice jeux de mots.
Dave Cawley
21-01-2010, 07:39
OK, I think I was a bit hasty there, and having done a search on Holistic I find it was indeed Steve that first used it on this forum, so sorry Steve!
I did more closely define it here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=5134 Third Law section (iv)
Regards
Dave
Holistic . . . synergy . . . I think we're talking about the same thing, aren't we?
A good system is greater than the sum of its parts. You can't take a component out of context and apply specific findings to it. The What Hi-Fi five-star approach to system building is bound to failure. A system includes the room it's in.
How many more ways are there of saying it? :)
twelvebears
21-01-2010, 08:17
I know conversation here has strayed slightly from the original post, but Steve's thread got me thinking about my own systems and how there are many ways to SPPV.
Within my system now, I have four items which individually achieve SPPV in different ways: My Beresford DAC is the cheapest new component I've ever bought and is just an outright bargain which delivers the goods day in, day out. My Techie has cost me a bit but sounds fab AND has the potential to be improved further without having to spend a fortune. My MF M3 amp was expensive at the time but it's the component that I've owned and enjoyed for longer than any other and I still have no plans to get rid of it, so that's long-term SPPV. And last, but my no means least, my nutty slate speakers, which from my perspective, deliver the ultimate SPPV in my system, because even though their total cost was only about £2.5k, I can honestly say that I can't think of anything I would swap them for even if they were free.
Having had many bits of kit pass through my system over the years, I'm very happy that the system I have now is givng me the most enjoyment I've ever had. As audio memory is always misty, I can't be certain that the set-up I have now is actually better than I've ever had, but it's the one where I spend my time enjoying the music and NOT thinking about kit constantly, and for me, that's what SPPV is all about.
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