View Full Version : Croft Acoustics RIAA Phono Stage
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 20:13
Hi all.
Some of you may have followed my earlier thread on my aquisition of a Technics SL-1200 Mk2 with OL1 arm (now fitted with Tecnoweight). I love the sound I'm getting, but I feel it's being held back by my phono stage, a rather humble (although Limited Edition Gold one) Pro-ject Phono Box. Although I'd like a Tag Mclaren PPA20 to match my system, they're like rocking horse poo, and there aren't many reviews either. So instead I've been looking at alternatives, both new and used.
I don't want to spend a fortune, as my system can't exactly be considered high end, so I'm a bit confused what to go for. Although many people praise the Cambridge Audio 640P, it costs not much more than the Phono Box so I wonder if it's much of an improvement. Then there's the Creek OBH-15, Pro-ject Tube Box, Edwards Audio MC-1 (or MM-1) and some of the Graham Slee offerings. Further up the scale is the Lehmann Black Cube, Dynavector P75, Pure Sound P10 and Croft Micro 25 Basic. The subject of this thread, the Croft RIAA looks very nice indeed, and is very tempting, despite being only MM (although that's fine for now as I have a high output MC). Then of course there are the odd classics that appear 2nd hand on Ebay, such as the EAR 834P.
The question is, is it worth me spending that much or would I be better sticking with something like the OBH-15 or Tube Box? Although I may upgrade the tonearm at some point in the future, I don't intend to upgrade the turntable.
Can anybody make any recommendations or offer their opinion on the phono amps mentioned above? There's only so much browsing of the web I can do and, being in Aberdeenshire, the couple of dealers near me don't have much to offer in the way of phono stages to audition.
Thanks
Gary
hifi_dave
16-01-2010, 20:20
If you're OK with an MM phono stage, I would recommend the Puresound or one of the Croft's.
What amp are you using at present ?
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 20:24
If you're OK with an MM phono stage, I would recommend the Puresound or one of the Croft's.
What amp are you using at present ?
Hi Dave,
I have a Tag Mclaren DPA32R feeding a pair of Tag 125M monoblocs.
Gary
hifi_dave
16-01-2010, 20:35
Refresh my memory, was that piece of TAG a surround processor and do you use it as such ? I was just thinking you could have one of the Croft pre's, which include a stunning phono stage, driving your mono's.
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 20:47
Refresh my memory, was that piece of TAG a surround processor and do you use it as such ? I was just thinking you could have one of the Croft pre's, which include a stunning phono stage, driving your mono's.
The DPA32R is a 2-channel pre-amp and DAC combined. (The AV32 was the surround one). I don't want to replace the DPA32R.
Regards
Gary
I'm biased, as I have a sincere affection for Glenn's work now going back over twenty years, but I do understand those that may want something a little "neater" in finish ;) I echo HiFi dave's recommendation of the Croft or Puresound one, in addition to the ANT models). Sadly, the last two I only have verbal positives of...
Dave Cawley has a good range of phono stages to suit many pockets and a visit to his site would be a great start. He has a little phono unit under £200 - ClearAudio Nano that looks good
http://www.soundhifi.com/phonostage.html
as well as details of others from expensive to frankly ridiculous (IMO, and we haven't even reached the otherwise great Tron phono-stages yet.....:lol:)
hifi_dave
16-01-2010, 21:12
The DPA32R is a 2-channel pre-amp and DAC combined. (The AV32 was the surround one). I don't want to replace the DPA32R.
Regards
Gary
Didn't think you would, so it's back to stage one for me, either the Puresound or the Croft unless you want real budget, in which case I would suggest a Rega Fono.
You could even use the Croft Micro Basic pre as a phono stage. At £350 it's a great phono stage with a free pre..:lol:
chris@panteg
16-01-2010, 21:18
Hi Gary
I have a 640p and don't feel its holding things back ' in what way do you feel your current phono is letting things down .
I agree that the croft and puresound will be an excelent upgrade ' but i prefer the source 1st principle , its working for me so far ' with every upgrade i make to my 1210 its very easy to hear the difference with my modest 640p.
Ctroft's phono stages just seem to "free-off" the music given them. I can't explain it any better, but it's Sooooooo addictive.....
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 21:23
I only seem to hear from you two! :) And I knew these would be your recommendations; it's the reason I've looked at the Crofts and Pure Sound to begin with. Dave Cawley sells the Pure Sound for £550, although I think I've seen it for about £475 (gutted that a P10 and T10 sold for £450 on Ebay the other day). Would I be correct in thinking the Croft RIAA would be far superior to the P10? Although the Micro Basic is a bit cheaper, it's a cut down version and has things I don't need (i.e. the other line inputs!).
I'm also hoping someone might recommend the ones around £250 (Tube Box, MC-1, OBH-15), but so far, it's one end of the spectrum to the other :) Are the Rega Fono or Clearaudio Nano really much of an improvement from what I've already got in the Phono Box?
Cheers
Gary
chris@panteg
16-01-2010, 21:30
tell you what Gary as you are Ebay savvy ' look out for any Audio innovations P2 phono ' if you see one not too silly priced and serviced ' just get it ' its all you will ever need ;).
But if not well ' the Croft does look very enticing , i cannot comment on the Clearaudio ' not heard it ' it could be a cracker , but if you buy the croft or puresound ' you can forget about upgrading for a long time.
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 21:48
tell you what Gary as you are Ebay savvy ' look out for any Audio innovations P2 phono ' if you see one not too silly priced and serviced ' just get it ' its all you will ever need ;).
But if not well ' the Croft does look very inticing , i cannot comment on the Clearaudio ' not heard it ' it could be a cracker , but if you buy the croft or puresound ' you can forget about upgrading for a long time.
Thanks Chris.
I'll have a look at that one. Always nice to add another one to the mix. As for the CA 640P, I'm torn really. So many differing views on that beast; many who say it's outstanding, and many who think it's very good, but only at that price point. I would love to hear from someone who has had the opportunity to compare it to the Phono Box.
Regards
Gary
hifi_dave
16-01-2010, 22:01
IMO, the 640P is a good phono stage for the money but it isn't a giant killer by any stretch of the imagination. It's fair value. Pay a bit more and get something you can enjoy for years to come.
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 22:11
IMO, the 640P is a good phono stage for the money but it isn't a giant killer by any stretch of the imagination. It's fair value. Pay a bit more and get something you can enjoy for years to come.
That's what I'm thinking. So are there any in the £200 to £300 range that would give me that, or do I have to pay nearer £500?
Regards
Gary
hifi_dave
16-01-2010, 22:36
Well, at £350 I'd be quite content using the Croft Micro Basic pre as a MM phono stage. I don't think you can improve on this at the price. Go to £500 and you've got the Croft RIAA phono stage.
gazcarts
16-01-2010, 23:04
Well, at £350 I'd be quite content using the Croft Micro Basic pre as a MM phono stage. I don't think you can improve on this at the price. Go to £500 and you've got the Croft RIAA phono stage.
Do you think the Croft Micro Basic will better the Lehmann Black Cube Standard, which can be found for about £385?
Gary
Hi Gary,
In a word 'yes'. In terms of sonic performance, the Croft is an £800 phono stage in a box for £350 with a free preamp thrown in for good measure!!
Yes, only Glenn knows how he can manage to do this... :mental:
I'll make it easy for you: buy the Croft with confidence!
Glenn is a master at designing phono stages - quite simply, you will not find better anywhere else for the money (or perhaps even double it) :)
Marco.
gazcarts
17-01-2010, 00:57
Thanks Marco. I'm quite tempted by either of the Crofts. I'm also reading some VERY good reviews on the Lehmann Black Cube. I know it's not very pretty, but it seems far more flexible and configurable than the Crofts and can be upgraded with an external power supply later. And of course it's MC as well. I haven't seen a bad review and it's under £400. Some reviewers describe it as a perfect mix between SS and Tubes.
Has anyone any experience of the Black Cube or maybe compared it to the Crofts?
Regards
Gary
Gary,
The main difference with the Croft is that it's hard-wired throughout (i.e. no sonically detrimental circuit boards are used) and it's an all-valve design. This is normally unheard of at the price, but then Glenn Croft is an exception to the rule and never 'follows the herd'.
Properly designed all-valve phono stages, in my experience (and it's substantial in this area), nine times out of 10 outperform their solid-state counterparts.
The Croft doesn't require a PSU upgrade later because the one that's in it is designed properly in the first place! ;)
The Black Cube may also be MC, but with your high-output Dynavector you don't need MC, so why pay the sonic penalty for the manufacturer having to compromise his design (to keep it within budget) in order to incorporate the facility of both MM and MC?
If you decide to buy a low-output MC cartridge in future, you can simply add a step-up transformer, like I do with the A23, Croft MM phono stage and Denon DL-103SA. Trust me, the results are superb!
And as for "flexible and configurable" - again the audio signal will have to pass through the extra circuitry involved in order to facilitate such flexibility, and so sound quality will be compromised accordingly. You don't need any of that if you choose a cartridge that works properly with a phono stage in the first place.
Your Dynavector and the Croft would be a very good match, naturally, so you don't need to 'configure' anything.
As for what magazines recommend, well, let's just say that they all have their individual agendas!
Marco.
gazcarts
17-01-2010, 01:52
Gary,
The main difference with the Croft is that it's hard-wired throughout (i.e. no sonically detrimental circuit boards are used) and it's an all-valve design. This is normally unheard of at the price, but then Glenn Croft is an exception to the rule and never 'follows the herd'.
Properly designed all-valve phono stages, in my experience (and it's substantial in this area), nine times out of 10 outperform their solid-state counterparts.
The Croft doesn't require a PSU upgrade later because the one that's in it is designed properly in the first place! ;)
The Black Cube may also be MC, but with your high-output Dynavector you don't need MC, so why pay the sonic penalty for the manufacturer having to compromise his design (to keep it within budget) in order to incorporate the facility of both MM and MC?
If you decide to buy a low-output MC cartridge in future, you can simply add a step-up transformer, like I do with the A23, Croft MM phono stage and Denon DL-103SA. Trust me, the results are superb!
And as for "flexible and configurable" - again the audio signal will have to pass through the extra circuitry involved in order to facilitate such flexibility, and so sound quality will be compromised accordingly. You don't need any of that if you choose a cartridge that works properly with a phono stage in the first place.
Your Dynavector and the Croft would be a very good match, naturally, so you don't need to 'configure' anything.
As for what magazines recommend, well, let's just say that they all have their individual agendas!
Marco.
Thanks Marco. I haven't read any magazine reviews, just the many reviews posted on the web by amateurs or owners of the Cube. Am I correct in thinking the RIAA has the innards of the far more expensive Micro 'R'? I know it's £150 more than the Micro Basic, but I assume it's an even better performer? Plus, I don't need a pre-amp :)
I think you can take that as a given, but hi-fi Dave's your man to confirm that.
Incidentally, if you do decide to buy the Croft, he's the chap to use, as you will rarely find a more helpful, knowledgeable and efficient dealer to do business with :)
Marco.
Yeah, the swine :D
Got me into Croft and NAS he did - Grrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!! :peace: :cool:
Gary
I've had a Croft and EAR phono preamp at different times in the past and they're both excellent. If you see a used 834P going at a good price, you wouldn't be disappoointed.
The Grand Wazoo
17-01-2010, 14:13
There's an old Croft active head amp on Ebay at the moment:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CROFT-MC-HEAD-AMP-STEP-UP-TRANSFORMER-Phono-stage_W0QQitemZ280449596425QQcmdZViewItemQQptZTurn table_Parts_Accessories?hash=item414c193c09
That IS old, pre 1989 I reckon...
Mind you, I wish Glenn could refresh this unit and make an updated one to special order. Trouble is, I reckon it would sell for around £300..
The Grand Wazoo
17-01-2010, 16:55
It's the same case as the Micro was in when I first saw it - that was ~'86 (ish).
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 16:57
I think i am hooked on getting a Croft phono now , i am leaning towards the phono stage though , but now i think i see the set up i want '
Obviously the jelco arm , the Croft phono and for a future cartridge upgrade , maybe a decca or the latest music maker 3 ' i don't think i want an mc .
Oh and if or when i do go for a Croft ' it will be through HiFi Dave :)
gazcarts
17-01-2010, 17:03
Thanks everyone. Perhaps hifi Dave could PM the prices of the items we've discussed so I can consider it further?
I've had a suggestion of the NVA Phono 2, only available on Ebay. Has anyone auditioned one?
Cheers
Gary
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 17:19
Gary i have not heard the NVA 2 but it has a devoted following , Gromit is a member on here has used one and liked it a lot .
It must be worth an audition i would say ' the designer Richard Dunn is not flavour of the month on here , trod on a few toes , but he does make some interesting stuff IMHO.
gazcarts
17-01-2010, 17:36
Gary i have not heard the NVA 2 but it has a devoted following , Gromit is a member on here has used one and liked it a lot
It was Gromit who mentioned it; I've also posted a similar question on WigWam as it seems to be a bit busier there. I believe the NVA is solid state? I'm drawn towards a valve stage such as the Croft, but curious how it would gel with the rest of my solid state Tag stuff, although I was reading a post yesterday from the guy on here with Audiolab monoblocs, and he seemed happy (although he has just acquired the Croft power amp I believe)
Gary
ONLY available on eBay - ever asked why?????
Glenn only supplies to dealers he regards as friends, 'cos they don't do him down and they supported him from the start.
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 18:09
It was Gromit who mentioned it; I've also posted a similar question on WigWam as it seems to be a bit busier there. I believe the NVA is solid state? I'm drawn towards a valve stage such as the Croft, but curious how it would gel with the rest of my solid state Tag stuff, although I was reading a post yesterday from the guy on here with Audiolab monoblocs, and he seemed happy (although he has just acquired the Croft power amp I believe)
Gary
Hi gary
I don't think there will be any problem using a croft with your amps ,
I used to have a Cocordant Excelsior valve pre ' it had a good phono stage , regret selling to be honest , i think you will be happy with the Croft but maybe you need to hear one 1st , scalford show perhaps!
gazcarts
17-01-2010, 20:02
Hi gary
I don't think there will be any problem using a croft with your amps ,
I used to have a Cocordant Excelsior valve pre ' it had a good phono stage , regret selling to be honest , i think you will be happy with the Croft but maybe you need to hear one 1st , scalford show perhaps!
Where's Scalford? Remember I'm in Aberdeenshire! :)
chris@panteg
17-01-2010, 21:17
Ahh ' thats quite a distance , perhaps not
Pardon me for hijacking the thread, but I'm considering buying the Croft RIAA and would like to ask you about recommended cartridges for this phono stage and LP12/Ittok LVII combo. I know (from personal communication) that Mr Croft prefers MI and MM to MC cartridges and I'd like to know which carts have you listened to on such setup and whether the results were satisfying or not.
Thank you,
Adam
Hi Adam,
Welcome to AOS :)
Before I provide you with that information could you do me a big favour and pop into the welcome area and introduce yourself to our members (where you come from, what your system is, your tastes in music, etc) - use the other threads there as a guide to what is required, as this is the correct procedure for all new members joining our community.
When done, I'll gladly help with your enquiry.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
Consider it done :)
Cheers,
Adam
hifi_dave
17-03-2010, 20:17
Hi Adam and welcome.
Glenn uses London or Decca cartridges and this would be my first choice if the arm and turntable are up to the job. Further down the tree I have had very good results with Ortofon 2M Red, Blue and Black. Rega Exact and Elys-2 plus high o/p cartridges such as the Sumiko Blue Point Special also sound very good.
Actually, the list is almost endless and limited only by budget and record player as the RIAA phono stage is truly wonderful.
Further down the tree again, I have a collection of assorted mm style pickups from Shure M3D's to V15's and ADC VLM's to ZLM's and a much loved Sonus Blue (big 25KHz approx peak the Croft handles ok), together with Ortofon M20e Super and FL Super. Even on my standard preamp, the differences between them are clearly audible, as well as the greater "grip" when the MC's are used with a humble AT630 SUT...
Nice one, Adam - cheers! :)
Hi-fi Dave would be a good person to help with this one, however the LP12/Ittok combo is significant, so unfortunately the cartridges I was going to recommend would not be the best match for your arm.
Therefore, my advice would be to use something which is going to work well both with your Ittok and the Croft phono stage. Bearing in mind that the Croft RIAA is moving magnet only, if you want to use an MC cartridge you will have to get a step-up transformer, so let me know if you'd factored the cost of this into the equation, and if so, what remaining budget you have for your new cartridge.
MM-wise, I'd look at the Ortofon 2M Black and the Nagaoka MP300, see here for the latter:
http://www.musonic.co.uk/mp300-cartidge-p-17368.html?zenid=0sj20qf3euhlpef6fdskrllhq0
I've used one of these in my set-up through the phono stage in my Croft Charisma-X and the results were fantastic! I also think the MP300 would work really well in the Ittok.
Hope this helps! :cool:
Marco.
Thanks guys :)
No MC for me. The Ortofon 2M Black is at the very top of my list so I'm glad to see that it pairs well with the Croft. I've read numerous raving reviews of the Nagaoka carts, if only I have a chance to try it somewhere, I'd add it to my list.
Since there is no chance to demo the phono stage here, could you please try to describe which type of sound presentation it has? Warmish and laid-back or neutral and detailed? Is it deadly quiet (that's pretty important to me, I'm allergic to hissing :)
Thanks a lot,
Adam
Glenn's phono stages are anything but "valvey" in the squishy, bloated, sweet sense of the word. They just do a neutral job with just that "something" that valves, clean earth paths and point-to-point wiring bring to the party.
I wouldn't say that any valve phono stage is as quiet as the best of what ss can do and certainly the distortion of the best ss phono stages is now well into the already low noise floor, but that doesn't mean I'm becoming a turncoat and dismissing Glenn's wonderful products. If I can just say that there's ample gain and low noise for a high output mc on the one hand, together with a very gracious overload margin for high output mm's like Decca's, which can put out huge spikes on surface ticks, causing many lesser ss stages to momentarily oscillate, then that's that really. the separate stage is the "R" version with a dedicated power supply all its own and one or two better components I believe.
I agree with Dave's summary of Croft phono stages.
Adam,
I take your point about hearing cartridges before purchase, but that's always likely to be a problem these days.
In my view, the Ortofon 2M Black and Nagaoka MP-300 are the standout options for consideration in your system - neither of which you're likely to hear before you buy, so if you're going to take a 'risk', as it were, why not take the bull by the horns, be a bit different, and try the MP-300? :)
Admittedly, I've not heard one in an Ittok (neither have I heard a 2M Black on one either), but I've heard the MP-300 and 2M Black on the Jelco SA-750 on an SL-1210, and I can tell you it is stunningly good and works superbly well into a Croft MM phono stage. In my opinion, having heard both cartridges in my system, the Nagaoka is the more sonically talented and should offer the bigger bang for your buck, as it were. Check out the specs!
The Ittok is a medium-mass arm, like the Jelco, and the rather 'peppy' nature of its delivery is liable to suit the very refined but 'punchy' sound of the Nagaoka, as the latter will do in terms of the LP12's intrinsic sonic signature, so I don't forsee any synergy issues when using the Croft RIAA - it will come down to your ears and personal preference.
Anyway, I just thought I'd give you some more food for thought :cool:
Marco.
hifi_dave
17-03-2010, 22:28
That Nagaoka looks and specs very much like the old MP30 and MP50, both of which were at home in the Ittok. So the MP-300 should be a good choice.
The only reservation I have is the price of Nagaoka now. When I last sold them they were upper budget prices. Is this all due to the falling Pound ?
That Nagaoka looks and specs very much like the old MP30 and MP50, both of which were at home in the Ittok. So the MP-300 should be a good choice.
That's exactly what I was thinking, Dave - it's a 'shoe-in' for the Ittok, whereas I feel the 2M Black is possibly more at home on an RB301 :)
Regarding cost, yes Nagaokas are rather more expensive than they used to be, but in reality they've just caught up with the likes of Ortofon.
The 2M Black is, what £400 (perhaps less if you shop around), and is therefore still more expensive than the MP-300, and in my opinion, certainly not any better sounding for it; in fact I'd say the MP-300 sounds more like a £900 cartridge than a £325 one - I kid you not....
I'm surprised you don't stock them!
Marco.
Depends where you can obtain them at trade prices. Things are not always as cut and dried to a dealer as they seem from the consumer's view, sadly....
Yes, but if there were enough customers out there willing to buy them instead of the Ortofons, ATs and Goldrings of this world, which are promoted ad nauseam everywhere, then it would make commercial sense for dealers to stock them, wouldn't it? :)
I'm certainly going to do my best on AOS to promote these superb cartridges, as they really deserve to be given a chance and be appreciated by a wider audience.
Marco.
Thank you all for the advice. I agree with Marco that since there is no way to demo at home neither of these cartridges, I might get the MP-300 as well. The price of Ortofon is a bit lower here, though it is still more expensive than Nagaoka. Since it isn't that much, I will consider ordering the Nagaoka - it may suit the Ittok a bit better Ortofon.
One thing that puzzles me is the (audible?) difference between needle tips of these two carts - Ortofon has Nude Shibata, which is AFAIK a bit more better (or at least technologically advanced) comparing to elliptical tip of the Nagaoka. Shouldn't the Ortofon have better details retrieval and tracking?
Hi Adam,
Possibly it might do in isolation, but you have to factor into consideration how both cartridges will behave on the Ittok - it is ultimately this relationship which will matter most and likely outweigh any possible benefits brought about by the Ortofons arguably superior tip...
It's always dangerous getting into absolutes with hi-fi and much better to look at the bigger picture and how things will synergise as a whole. In that respect, given the system you have, I really can't see you going wrong with the Nagaoka :)
Marco.
The stylus type should ideally be matched to the whole cartridge. Adding a fancy tip to a denon 103 apparently didn't work as well, although the suspension may have been changed as well (long time ago now).. The AT33 is available in several "versions" and the PTG appears to be the best all-rounder it seems. As for Shures, the better the tip fitted to any of the V15's, the better the cartridges seem to get, the best currently the SAS versions made by Jelco I think.
Ortofon have the mentality that a better diamond chip costing them pennies more justifies almost doubling the retail price. Good business in the boom times, but not in these days IMO.. I'm sure the 2M Black is great, but there are some great value MC's out there too and these can have a bit more "drama" IMO..
Can't speak for the nags I'm afraid. I hated them twenty odd years ago because they sounded shrill in LP systems balanced towards a dull balanced cartridge (Nagaoka's are pretty flat in response). Now those shackles are off, I'd take Marco's advice, as he hasn't failed me yet on cartridge re-appraisal.... ;)
Hi Marco,
Your reply sounds very reasonably to me. This whole "analogue world" is a bit new to me and I tend to apply "digital" thinking to it - e.g. better DAC, filters, dithering algorithms = better sound reproduction.. Need to focus on the bigger picture and think of my analogue front end as one being and not the sum of its parts.
Meanwhile, I've made the decision (and persuaded the wife :) to order the Croft next month and Nagaoka a bit later (if my current AT, which was bought for learning how to setup arm/cartridge , survives long enough).
I wonder if Glen would be willing to reduce the price a little or maybe I'll try to find an ex-demo unit.. This phono stage is as rare as hen's teeth on the s/h market :)
Cheers,
Adam
Haselsh1
18-03-2010, 14:12
The Croft Micro 25 Basic gives you weeks of astonishing sound. The phrase "Where the hell did that just come from" springs to mind such is the level of detail. After a few weeks you start to get used to it and things calm down. All that needs to be done now is for Glen Croft to sort out the impossible volume sensitivity which makes it almost impossible to set an accurate volume and balance.
Hi Adam,
I wonder if Glen would be willing to reduce the price a little or maybe I'll try to find an ex-demo unit.. This phono stage is as rare as hen's teeth on the s/h market.
That's because no-one in their right mind, after hearing one, would part with it!
When dealing with cartridges and such like, you must learn to fit your 'analogue head' and think more organically....
It's a different world to digital in terms of the multitude of interfaces which must be correctly optimised in order to get the best possible sonic performance. Digital involves mostly thinking in 'black & white'; whereas with analogue, one must think laterally and visualise things more in shades of grey ;)
Hey, they don't call me "Analogue Boy" for nothing - daftness aside, I do know what I'm talking about in this area :eyebrows:
Marco.
Whatever I may say about my old Croft preamp, the one I have now is for keeps until and unless I can afford a 25 "R." Glenn's gone over to screened signal cables inside his preamps now, whereas mine uses good old 0.6mm solid core "telephone" wire from Maplin...
hifi_dave
18-03-2010, 22:43
I wonder if Glen would be willing to reduce the price a little or maybe I'll try to find an ex-demo unit.. This phono stage is as rare as hen's teeth on the s/h market :)
Cheers,
Adam
At the present time, Glenn is struggling to keep up with the orders. As for 'ex-demo' - he only has three or so dealers in GB and the product has only been around for approx six months. Second hand ? why would you sell one ?
Better start saving Adam...:eyebrows:
Oh, I've started already :-) BTW does it come with valves installed?
hifi_dave
19-03-2010, 10:07
Yes, it comes with valves installed and a mains lead.
Oh, I nearly forgot the exhaustive 50 page leather bound manual, Warranty certificate, installation manual, cleaning materials and a complete tool-set including a pillar-drill..........................none of which you get...:lolsign:
the exhaustive 50 page leather bound manual
Ah yes, a bit like the Jelco 'manual'.
Yes, it comes with valves installed and a mains lead.
Oh, I nearly forgot the exhaustive 50 page leather bound manual, Warranty certificate, installation manual, cleaning materials and a complete tool-set including a pillar-drill..........................none of which you get...:lolsign:
You forgot about the built-in 20-band graphic equaliser and free membership to the secret cabal!
Marco.
And deeply analytical measurements with TID, THD, TDD etc of every single unit presented to ten decimal places.......
Can someone please explain to an ignoramus what you do with the volume controls if you use a Croft pre-amp as a phono stage? Leave them on zero/half way up or what?
Thanks
Leave 'em at minimum with muting switch engaged and use the tape outputs...
Glenn's phono stages are anything but "valvey" in the squishy, bloated, sweet sense of the word. They just do a neutral job with just that "something" that valves, clean earth paths and point-to-point wiring bring to the party.
As Dave says. :)
You forgot about the built-in 20-band graphic equaliser and free membership to the secret cabal!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Hi all,
I've been testing the Croft RIAA over the last week and to my big surprise.....I'm quite disappointed. My system is a Croft Vita and a Croft Twinstar II. The overall tonal signature is very much like the RIAA in the Vita and lovely. The new RIAA is faster and tighter sounding which is also great compared to the Vita RIAA. My overall impression was that the soundstage was quite narrow and everything sounded too 'polite'. The tone/tonal Croft signature is superb though. Maybe it's the tubes...haven't got another pair here to replace them with.
The biggest difference was when a mates EAR 834P Deluxe sounded way better overall. I'm quite surprised with these results and would have preferred the Croft to win ;-). Interconnects cables used was Fletcher and DNM. Turntable NAS Spacedeck.
To "widen" the sound stage, inject a bit of anti-phase - that'll do it.... :)
EAR's have had bad press if they're fitted with duff valves and some tube rolling usually fixes it.
Try some simple low capacitance/low loss interconnects (not DNM for now) and try again. I found that solid-core wires a la DNM tend to strip the sound bare and may not suit the croft perhaps.
Sorry you've been underwhelmed by the Croft, which is "R" spec. perhaps Glenn could advise?
Hi Dave,
The RIAA wasn't connected with the DNM from RIAA -> Line. I only used it as an interconnect between my pre- and poweramp. I kind of like the clean, natural sound it produces. I can only think of two possibilities here:
1) seems like my Vita performs best when it gets quite a bunch of gain. Anyone knows if the Croft RIAA has fairly low gain`
2) the tubes although I don't suspect tubes to have that much impact.
The EAR Deluxe was fitted with newly installed NOS Valvo tubes. A great choice for that RIAA. The EAR has tons of gain. Being a Croft devotee myself I preferred the tone of the Croft but the dynamics and wider soundstage of the EAR.
The croft may well have less gain, but should have a high overload for those London Deccas :lol:
My Croft's phono stage isn't quite the same as yours (maybe it's similar, as the "R" version is PP judging by the number of valves), but the gain isn't quite as high as CD player output. Having said this, the OC9 with Lentek head amp and even the AT630 transformer loads it very well indeed...
Try some "better" valves. Even I can hear a difference ;)
As an aside, Sowter do some step-up transformers with low gain, initially intended for "high output" moving coils which still often don't have quite enough gain...
Where do you get to listen to Croft gear? I was told to listen to a Croft preamp but who does them....
I just did a demo of an Audio Origami PU7 tonearm with an Avid Pulsare phonostage.... if you like to spend £3000 on something that lacks detail then this is it.... the AVID dealer was also surprised with what it sounded like. He then pulled out a Whest PS.30R and that sounded like a breath of fresh air - for £1800. goes to show that Conrad can't excell in everything :) and as for the price.... drop it to £1500 and it'll be worth it.
The PU7 on the other hand is excellent! I found it better than the SME IV.
Croft in London or Bath anyone? Does Les at Walrus do Croft preamps?
He then pulled out a Whest PS.30R and that sounded like a breath of fresh air
You're not the only one to have found that about the Whest. It took me a while (and a few mistakes) to get there, but now I'm very happy. Snoopdog - the bugger - has an even better one :)
Croft in London or Bath anyone? Does Les at Walrus do Croft preamps?
Hi Fi Dave's your best bet really just up the M11 in saffron walden area, but yes, Walrus do Croft.
Spectral Morn
10-08-2010, 19:05
Hi all,
I've been testing the Croft RIAA over the last week and to my big surprise.....I'm quite disappointed. My system is a Croft Vita and a Croft Twinstar II. The overall tonal signature is very much like the RIAA in the Vita and lovely. The new RIAA is faster and tighter sounding which is also great compared to the Vita RIAA. My overall impression was that the soundstage was quite narrow and everything sounded too 'polite'. The tone/tonal Croft signature is superb though. Maybe it's the tubes...haven't got another pair here to replace them with.
The biggest difference was when a mates EAR 834P Deluxe sounded way better overall. I'm quite surprised with these results and would have preferred the Croft to win ;-). Interconnects cables used was Fletcher and DNM. Turntable NAS Spacedeck.
There is a mismatch somewhere in your system as I spent last night listening to a system with a new Croft phono stage in it. From new it had a somewhat
brash treble after a few hours use it was open fast dynamic, quite 3 Dimensional, with fairly good depth (though I suspect it will get better with more use) and a fairly wide soundstage. Bass was also very good for a brand new item. It was not polite sounding, narrow or flat.
The sound was the total opposite of what you are describing.
What is the rest of your set up, cartridge,speakers being used ? How much use has it had including the cartridge ?
Regards D S D L
Neil, I don't know what valves Glenn uses these days, but any of the better ECC83 NOS variants should be better than what is fitted I think..
I've just bought a couple of supposedly CV4004's from langrex on fleabay and I'll buy another pair once the finances have recovered and give them a try. The existing Mullard CV4004's are a bit tetchy, but seemed to respond to swapping them about...
Good luck, whatever and hope the Croft "does it" for you Neil :respect:
P.S. I found a full 'Choice review of the original Micro at £150. It measured extremely well - "textbook" according to Martin Colloms and it was sincerely recommended. I'll scan and post it if you like..
Hi D S D L,
I just had a mail from the guy I've borrowed the Croft RIAA from and my thoughts/impressions are very much like his he says. He has used it in 4 different systems.
I just gave the RIAA another run tonight and played it at higher levels. This certainly brings it more to live. Very tight sounding unit with superb tonality in my opinion. But still I must say it sounds a little flat, laid back with a narrow soundstage. The simpler RIAA in my Croft Vita sounds fuller, a little bigger and have almost the exact same tonality. Give me some of the tightness from the new RIAA and I'm all set ;-).
This new Croft RIAA is very much the same circuit as in the 25 'R' pre amp, right? The 25 'R' amp has a whole bunch of gain as far as I can tell from reviews on this site. I could easily imagine the RIAA circuit working wonders there!
Get the thing back to Glenn as there may just be a fault somewhere.. he's a good guy and will move heaven and earth to get you sorted on prior experience.
Yeah, I'll suggest that to the owner. Thanks!
Spectral Morn
10-08-2010, 20:33
Get the thing back to Glenn as there may just be a fault somewhere.. he's a good guy and will move heaven and earth to get you sorted on prior experience.
It may not be faulty.
It would be useful to know what cart is being used.
What I was hearing and Dave the phono stage is not mine but belongs to a friend, was on the end of a MC cart and step up transformer. All cabling being Mark Grant G1000.
What I heard was very good indeed but will benefit from more run in.
Regards D S D L
I have a Spacedeck/Space arm with a Tracer 3 (K3) cartridge and Fletcher interconnects.
Spectral Morn
10-08-2010, 21:06
Hi Lars
I have never heard any of the Tracer carts. It could be a mismatch but the output of a Tracer1 (info found on line) seems to be high enough at 5 milivolts.
Valve types can make a big difference in sound quality right the way across the frequency range. So trying different types of valves might be worth trying but a Croft phono last night sounded nothing like what you are hearing, with as supplied valves. I particularly wanted to hear my friends set up to see if it sounded as you described (I read your post before I went down to my friends house) and to my ears it does not. Different system room etc.
Regards D S D L
This is from donkey's years ago, but the Tracers never sounded that special (sorry Tom :)) to me. NAS decks are anything but narrow staged and laid back.
Could you do me a favour and ask HiFi dave about the Tracer cartridge? He's been selling NAS since the original Dias from the late seventies I believe, was the first NAS dealer IIRC and he is probably the most experienced on everything Tom has made since...
hifi_dave
11-08-2010, 10:12
We never did much with the Tracers, finding them a bit soft and warm for our tastes. They did suit Tom's system at the time with Posselts or Klipschorns but didn't suit our more conventional systems.
matodono1
10-11-2010, 06:29
Hi all,
I've been testing the Croft RIAA over the last week and to my big surprise.....I'm quite disappointed. My system is a Croft Vita and a Croft Twinstar II. The overall tonal signature is very much like the RIAA in the Vita and lovely. The new RIAA is faster and tighter sounding which is also great compared to the Vita RIAA. My overall impression was that the soundstage was quite narrow and everything sounded too 'polite'. The tone/tonal Croft signature is superb though. Maybe it's the tubes...haven't got another pair here to replace them with.
The biggest difference was when a mates EAR 834P Deluxe sounded way better overall. I'm quite surprised with these results and would have preferred the Croft to win ;-). Interconnects cables used was Fletcher and DNM. Turntable NAS Spacedeck.
My Guess would be that the Vita was letting the RIAA down quite badly. The Vita was not very refined and has a tiny PSU. Much of what the RIAA is doing will be getting lost. Even if the onboard phono on the Vita is sounding ok, this means very little as the onboard phono was designed to work with that circuit and produce a balance.
Got to remember that the new RIAA and old Vita use different valve configs and are quite different circuits and vastly different PSU's.
I remember the Vita that I used to have. Quite crude really and wouldn't compare well to even the budget Micro 25 Basic.
I still use a Twinstar II to this day but this also means very little as no two Twinstar II's were ever the same. Only fifteen or so were ever built (if that) and Amar had a habit of effing about with it, changing his mind on what he wanted from the design and coercing Glenn into making constant changes. Plus mine has been back to Glenn a few times for bigger a PSU and lastest mods.
The poorer TSII's can sound quite soft and uninvolving. Wheras the Vita used to sound harder, open, but ever so slightly crude (throwing the sound stage forward, comparitively speaking against higher end Crofts).
Maybe this guy's two units create a balance that the more refined RIAA doesn't live with?
Hard to say.
Regards, Matt
Hi Gary,
I have had a number of Glenn's preamps and I can honestly say they are stunning value for money. I currently have a 25R preamp feeding a Croft Series 4s poweramp. The phono stage is the same as the separate RIAA phono you are considering.
I have heard the EAR and it wasn't to my liking compared to the Croft Vitale I was running at the time it was harsh almost brittle and not as involving - I bought one and returned it.
I can't comment on the other ones you list but you can buy the Croft with confidence. In addition I have found Glenn to be a highly professional chap who always responds to my email requests for help and suggestions - stunning after sales service.
The "standard" unit comes with new production valves - much is to be gained by tube rolling post purchase :)
Steve
Who's Gary? :scratch:
Marco.
Who's Gary? :scratch:
Marco.
The chap who first posted the thread
Steve
Thanks, Steve (indeed you're right), but that was posted way back in January this year, and so I'd forgotten all about him! ;)
On forums, it's nearly always presumed that the person you're replying to is the one who last posted on the thread before you did. If that's not the case, it's best to quote what was written by whom you're referring to (i.e. Gary's opening post), and reply underneath this, so as to avoid any confusion.
Just a small pointer for the future, that's all, mate :)
Marco.
My Guess would be that the Vita was letting the RIAA down quite badly. The Vita was not very refined and has a tiny PSU. Much of what the RIAA is doing will be getting lost. Even if the onboard phono on the Vita is sounding ok, this means very little as the onboard phono was designed to work with that circuit and produce a balance.
Got to remember that the new RIAA and old Vita use different valve configs and are quite different circuits and vastly different PSU's.
I remember the Vita that I used to have. Quite crude really and wouldn't compare well to even the budget Micro 25 Basic.
I still use a Twinstar II to this day but this also means very little as no two Twinstar II's were ever the same. Only fifteen or so were ever built (if that) and Amar had a habit of effing about with it, changing his mind on what he wanted from the design and coercing Glenn into making constant changes. Plus mine has been back to Glenn a few times for bigger a PSU and lastest mods.
The poorer TSII's can sound quite soft and uninvolving. Wheras the Vita used to sound harder, open, but ever so slightly crude (throwing the sound stage forward, comparitively speaking against higher end Crofts).
Maybe this guy's two units create a balance that the more refined RIAA doesn't live with?
Hard to say.
Hi Matt,
Nice to see you popping in again! Hope all is well with you, matey :)
Marco.
Ah - my mistake -no worries Marco thanks for the heads up.
FWIW I've forgotten my own name :doh:
"Stress and the NHS - discuss" :lolsign:
Steve - I think :mental:
matodono1
10-11-2010, 20:22
Hi Matt,
Nice to see you popping in again! Hope all is well with you, matey :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco,
Nice to be welcome, things are good have been concentrating on my business but from time to time check Google to see how Glenn's site is doing. Inevitably I end up getting dragged on here to follow the Croft threads.
Glutton for punishment...
Matt.
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