View Full Version : Chaise Lounge killed my Sounds...
Jeez, this game is like a Rubik Cube!
So, I set my new rig up and had that familiar feeling of somethings not right.
On this occasion it was an unbalanced sound with an emphasised low end and vocals to the left.
This then triggered that familiar routine of find the issue. I'm sure you all know that one?
So anyway after a day or two of speaker positioning, swapping speakers, cables, valves, web searches, trying to convince myself that its all in my head, researching whether I can have a balance pot fitted to my new amp! I discovered that it's our chaise lounge!
I have the rig set up opposite the sofa which has a long chaise directly facing the left speaker. When I lift the chaise section open (it has storage space underneath) and leave it in a vertical position the sound suddenly snaps into place. The bass response shifts evenly and the vocals centralise. Not only that but the sound blooms in a very pleasant way and all the magic returns.
Trouble is I'm left with a rather odd looking room LOL.
In a way I'm glad I found the issue and its not my equipment. On the other hand it may have just been easier to change a component as I can't see me slipping the sofa out the house without finding myself on the street with it. If you follow my drift :)
So, I've never experienced a room issue before and was thinking that I would see what the good folk at AOS may suggest.
Currently, I'm thinking that the little Totem Arros are just not powerful enough to drive the room without the obvious imbalance or seeing if a large foot stool at the other end of the sofa may balance things out.
I would loathed however, to change the Arros as they have a very magical feel and sound about them.
Any thoughts, beyond psychiatry?
only put it vertical when you use the stereo, or move things about:)
Audio Al
10-05-2017, 07:54
Add a second one ? in front of the other speaker ?
My inclination would be to upgrade the sofa/setee situation, and also please the other half in the process of deliberately making the room acoustic more symmetrical.
You may find that a deliberate attempt to make the room more acoustically symmetrical improves it beyond the best you can achieve now.
only put it vertical when you use the stereo, or move things about:)
Having just bought the sofa new a couple of months ago, I think this is the best I'm going to get.
Out of interest can more powerful speakers make up for such room imbalances?
I'm thinking something with a more powerful bass response might shift the balance?
Sherwood
10-05-2017, 10:32
Jeez, this game is like a Rubik Cube!
So, I set my new rig up and had that familiar feeling of somethings not right.
On this occasion it was an unbalanced sound with an emphasised low end and vocals to the left.
This then triggered that familiar routine of find the issue. I'm sure you all know that one?
So anyway after a day or two of speaker positioning, swapping speakers, cables, valves, web searches, trying to convince myself that its all in my head, researching whether I can have a balance pot fitted to my new amp! I discovered that it's our chaise lounge!
I have the rig set up opposite the sofa which has a long chaise directly facing the left speaker. When I lift the chaise section open (it has storage space underneath) and leave it in a vertical position the sound suddenly snaps into place. The bass response shifts evenly and the vocals centralise. Not only that but the sound blooms in a very pleasant way and all the magic returns.
Trouble is I'm left with a rather odd looking room LOL.
In a way I'm glad I found the issue and its not my equipment. On the other hand it may have just been easier to change a component as I can't see me slipping the sofa out the house without finding myself on the street with it. If you follow my drift :)
So, I've never experienced a room issue before and was thinking that I would see what the good folk at AOS may suggest.
Currently, I'm thinking that the little Totem Arros are just not powerful enough to drive the room without the obvious imbalance or seeing if a large foot stool at the other end of the sofa may balance things out.
I would loathed however, to change the Arros as they have a very magical feel and sound about them.
Any thoughts, beyond psychiatry?
Your sound is being sofacated!
:eyebrows:
Sherwood
10-05-2017, 10:37
Why don't you try filling the storage space with blankets, cushions etc. It may be that you are hearing a resonant chamber!
Otherwise, my guidance is symmetry in all things!
Geoff
Why don't you try filling the storage space with blankets, cushions etc. It may be that you are hearing a resonant chamber!
Otherwise, my guidance is symmetry in all things!
Geoff
Yes that helped a bit, sofa so good ;)
But still better with the thing open.
The sound just seems to bloom and balance so much better with the thing open.
I still can't help but wonder whether a speaker with a more powerful bottom end would drive the room better.
Where there is a will :).
Sherwood
10-05-2017, 11:05
Your speakers are fine, I've always liked the Totem range. I don't think the chaise is the source of your malaise either!
I am guessing that when you open up the flap you are initiating an ad hoc room treatment, possibly involving some damping and/or deflection of standing waves. I have found that some room divider type panels can help with room problems, alongside other damping (e.g. using bookshelves, heavy drapes, wall hangings etc). A large architectural plant can alway bring about major improvements depending on the nature of your speaker-room-ear interactions.
Geoff
I had a weird problem like this, moving my speakers forward so that the right hand speaker had an alcove next to it instead of a wall - reduced the lower frequency from that speaker dramatically, so much so that I was looking for mechanical faults not placement as the cause.
It was Alan (Firebottle) who said it might be the alcove and he was right. Moved the speaker back 6 inches so it was next to the wall again, problem solved. The speakers are flat down to 40hz too so if your issue is similar then a speaker with better bass response probably won't help.
Yes, that seems to be the same issue as mine.
One speaker is 1.5 foot from the side wall while the other is 5.5 foot from the other side wall.
Unfortunately, there's no much I can do about the set up.
Following Geoff's feedback I have placed some cardboard behind the chaise on the wall and filled the speakers with sand.
This has gone a long way to address the issue but it still doesn't have quite the same bloom that lifting the chaise offers, sounding dryer.
I'll have to look into other room treatments, perhaps some else on the wall that's longer than the bit of cardboard that I have used.
I'll also need to put something on the far side wall as well.
Interesting but frustrating issue, still the system is sounding nice :)
Sherwood
10-05-2017, 14:37
Yes, that seems to be the same issue as mine.
One speaker is 1.5 foot from the side wall while the other is 5.5 foot from the other side wall.
Unfortunately, there's no much I can do about the set up.
Following Geoff's feedback I have placed some cardboard behind the chaise on the wall and filled the speakers with sand.
This has gone a long way to address the issue but it still doesn't have quite the same bloom that lifting the chaise offers, sounding dryer.
I'll have to look into other room treatments, perhaps some else on the wall that's longer than the bit of cardboard that I have used.
I'll also need to put something on the far side wall as well.
Interesting but frustrating issue, still the system is sounding nice :)
I think the cardboard addition suggests where your problems lie but in truth you will benefit from some more substantive room treatment. I would suggest a first step would be some more substantive materials on your walls to reduce sound reflections. I am guessing that the chaise is of substantial construction with plenty of padding.
I have had success in the past with carpet runners (typically around 80cm by 200cm). These can be fixed to the wall with a simple batton stapled to the runners. Alternatively, it is very simple and inexpensive to make an mdf or softwood frame of similar dimensions and to fix sound absorbent material to that. Of course, there are plenty of commercial products out there but at an often outrageous cost.
Not so sure about filling the speakers with sound though. I have found that this often creates an initial impression of solidity and bass reinforcement but at the cost of reduced speed and dynamics.
Geoff
Curiously a while back there was a posting with Piccie of Montescue's(SP?) Parlour? and his audio setup.
Oddly, to me at least, in the photo it was clear than a Settee was blanking one of his speakers.
Fairly common actually, only remarkable thing about it was that it was surprising, given the allusions to Audio perfection espoused.
Room setup is an 'open chapter'. Surprising given the 'attentions' lavished on the hardware bits.
Only hope in this is to claim one's 'Own' specific purposed Listening room.
OK, toeing the speakers in to the listening spot has tightened the image and by and large balanced the bass.
Lowering the headrests on the sofa has also improved things. I didn't stop to think how having cushioning directly behind my ears may influence the sound.
Anyway, this is likely the best I'll be able to dial it in and TBH it sounds very good :) Just need to not be too picky...
From Tony;
"Following Geoff's feedback I have placed some cardboard behind the chaise on the wall and filled the speakers with sand."
I think that should get rid of the bass altogether, and do be careful of the voice coils.
The proximity of boundaries, especially if asymmetrical does have a substantial effect, especially on bass, and even 'filling up' a volume nearby can considerably alter the sound balance.
Sherwood
11-05-2017, 07:36
From Tony;
"Following Geoff's feedback I have placed some cardboard behind the chaise on the wall and filled the speakers with sand."
I think that should get rid of the bass altogether, and do be careful of the voice coils.
The proximity of boundaries, especially if asymmetrical does have a substantial effect, especially on bass, and even 'filling up' a volume nearby can considerably alter the sound balance.
To defend myself, my advice was not to place cardboard!
Geoff
Rothchild
11-05-2017, 07:49
As a general point it's quite entertaining to see how much time, money and forum space goes in to discussing and analysing esoteric minutia (cables, trivial component changes, plugs and sockets, which GUI (over the same software) sounds better) and how little is given over to such an important and readily tweakable component of systems - the room they're in!
Folk would be well advised to read around some studio / recording material to understand that there are volumes dedicated by studio audio engineers to room design and layout (which end of the room should be 'live' or 'dead', bass trapping, diffusion, absorbtion etc etc). Obviously studio setups are much less likely to be succeptable to interior design considerations, but knowing more about how these things work and understanding how and where the issues in your room are likely to be (and what can be done to remediate them) can't be a bad thing right.
It was a noble effort though as the bass response on that side of the room is too pronounced.
The toe in and dropping the headrests has however, improved things greatly...
As a general point it's quite entertaining to see how much time, money and forum space goes in to discussing and analysing esoteric minutia (cables, trivial component changes, plugs and sockets, which GUI (over the same software) sounds better) and how little is given over to such an important and readily tweakable component of systems - the room they're in!
Folk would be well advised to read around some studio / recording material to understand that there are volumes dedicated by studio audio engineers to room design and layout (which end of the room should be 'live' or 'dead', bass trapping, diffusion, absorbtion etc etc). Obviously studio setups are much less likely to be succeptable to interior design considerations, but knowing more about how these things work and understanding how and where the issues in your room are likely to be (and what can be done to remediate them) can't be a bad thing right.
Agreed, but what a mine field and where to start for a beginner like me?
A few pics of the room might help
Excuse the mess we've only recently moved in!
And one of the infamous aroused chaise lounge!
have you tried pulling speakers a bit further out from wall? also perhaps tilting front up a fraction might help
all that glass might not be helping either. perhaps being able to pull a heavy drape across might help too. not sure its the sofa
Rothchild
11-05-2017, 08:42
Agreed, but what a mine field and where to start for a beginner like me?
good basic intro to the terms and issues here: http://www.darkroommastering.com/blog/room-acoustics-and-sound-treatment
and a mass of useful links and tools in here; https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/610173-acoustics-treatment-reference-guide-look-here.html
Sherwood
11-05-2017, 08:45
Where do I start? First of all, ditch the "Nazi" sofa. Heil salutes are neither funny nor fashionable!
I thought most serious audiophiles had banished tv's/lcd panels from their listening rooms. The fact that you have installed 4 passive resonators above a large reflective panel is beyond belief. Please stuff some cushions into the voids asap!
Until these unforgivable crimes are rectified I cannot offer further advice.
:doh:
have you tried pulling speakers a bit further out from wall? also perhaps tilting front up a fraction might help
Struth you're a genious!
Angling the speakers upwards and closing the blinds over the patio door has solved the issue of balance, everything has just snapped into place and the soundstage wow!
Many thanks to all.
I'm sure I could probably get this better with other remedies but wow this is what I was looking for!
Where do I start? First of all, ditch the "Nazi" sofa. Heil salutes are neither funny nor fashionable!
I thought most serious audiophiles had banished tv's/lcd panels from their listening rooms. The fact that you have installed 4 passive resonators above a large reflective panel is beyond belief. Please stuff some cushions into the voids asap!
Until these unforgivable crimes are rectified I cannot offer further advice.
:doh:
I can only aplogise, Putin told me to do it!
Sherwood
11-05-2017, 09:21
I can only aplogise, Putin told me to do it!
Seriously though, I think you need to look at the reflective and resonating surfaces in your room.
Geoff
Where would you begin?
I'm going to try draping something over the plasma and the large rads...
So draping Plasma etc makes a noticeable difference :)
I'm really made up with this now.
The difference between the sound I started out with and now is beyond words.
The soundstage on these Arro's is awesome compared to any speaker I have had before and the bottom end is fine. Amazing for such a small speaker.
So now just a few cap changes on the Yaquin and some proper jumper cables on the Arro's to replace the crap metal jumpers, drop in the new VPI Scout and I should be good to go for a few years.
Big love for Valves, Vinyl and AOS...
Sherwood
11-05-2017, 10:43
Glad things are improving. Your room does not look that much of a problem so I would have guessed that some simple room treatments would yield big returns.
Your vertical radiators look cool but they are exactly that: radiators, of sound. I would suggest you consider my earlier suggestion of making some frame panels. These would allow the heat to flow but not sound to reflect. I will post some pics of my dedicated listening room in the next few days featuring my home made panels. In the meantime you might see what the effect is of covering your radiators with a duvet or similar.
Geoff
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