Phono Stage Shootout

[Bigman80]

Hi all,

As I was in a position to spend a few hours with some high quality phono stages, I thought id do a bit of a comparison and write up the results.

I visited Alan (Firebottle) as he had recently purchased a Tron Convergence.
We decided to do a straight shootout between the Tron and the FB range. The results surprised us greatly.

So the line up was
FB-OTP
FB-Plus
FB-Vivant (in the KIN pre amp)
Tron Convergence.

So, first up.....The Tron (£1000)

This thing is HUGE. It has a beautifully machined case and it looks very imposing and authoritative.

Unfortunately, the sound didnt match the looks. The first listen was rather underwhelming. The Tron sounded compressed and lifeless. I asked Alan if it needed time to warm up but it had been switched on for about an hour prior to me arriving. I was very disappointed with the, to be frank, bland sound it made. There was no background noise though and surface noise was extremely quiet. This impressed me massively. Channel separation was excellent too. It did create a very good soundstage but its tone sounded flat and lifeless.

We moved on to the FB-OTP (£225)

Straight away, the boogie factor just woke me up. Thundering bass notes and sweet midrange. Sparkly treble and a very good soundstage. Not the​ same level as the others but still mightily Impressive. The OTP definitely has musicality in spades. There is a solid feel to the music, typical of SS. The most impressive thing about the OTP is how you just listen to the music, foot tapping and with a smile on your face. How this unit only costs £225 is beyond me. A stone cold bargain.

On to the FB-Plus (£600)

We go up a level here in terms of resolution and soundstage but overall, the OTP is very close and at less than half the price. Im surprised by this greatly. However when we played Eurythmics - thorn in my side, the Plus really moved into another gear. The airy but driven sound was palpable and the tone was perfect. Its got everything the OTP has got, but more of it. Channel seperation is excellent and the stage is very wide and deep. The noise floor is also very low and this is something the OTP couldn't match. The saxophones reed was very apparent in the sound which had a realistic feel to it. Piano also sounded authentic. I am very impressed with this Phono stage.

On to the FB-Vivant

Well, its like 20yo Mike tyson has just hit me in the face. Its just not like anything ive heard before. The bow is moving across the strings on Eleanor Rigby and I can hear which direction the bow is moving in. How is this possible ? Witchcraft....thats how. Its the only explanation. The sound stage extends beyond the walls and into the street. We have no roof and the floor is gone. We are in the performance. Remarkable. Truly exquisite. This is the undisputed heavy weight champion IMO. Detail in abundance, ambient and transient sounds are collected from the grooves and delivered with delicacy, Guitar riffs are laced with venom and I feel dirty listening to lynyrd Skynyrd play Poison Whiskey. Its fantastic. I want one !!!

Alan and I laugh somewhat at the audacity of the Tron being in the same price range as the Vivant, so to mock it further, I ask to plug it in again......but wait, what's going on?

The Tron appears to be picking itself up off the canvas and having a real go at a comeback

Eurythmics is now in 3D and hallucinogenic, that flat feeling has lifted somewhat to reveal a real depth. Im slightly confused! It actually is starting to sound very very nice indeed. We play a few tracks, Lynryd Skynrd, London Grammar to name a few and all the time the Tron is clawing itself out of the mire.

Im now rooting for the Tron. Chanting its name and willing it to win. But it never quite makes it to the FB-Vivants level. The Vivant was the clear winner.

We try the FB-Plus again and its almost as if we are listening to the Tron with the compression removed and thats the issue I had with the Tron.....it just couldnt match the FB-Plus or FB-Vivant for resolution or air which is a real shame because it actually does sound very good.

So Alan and I discussed price.....

FB - Vivant £1000 (ish)
Tron Convergence £1000 MC version
FB-Plus £600
FB - OTP. £225

So how did they finish ?

1st Place = Vivant. No competing against the best phono stage in this price point. It beat the competition with a shitty stick. In terms of VFM, the Vivant is cheap. It could easily cost twice as much and still feel cheap compared to its performance.

2nd Place = FB-Plus. I cant get past the price. Its fabulous and does about 80% of what the Vivant does for roughly half the price ! There is a loan unit doing the rounds. Get it and have a listen.

3rd place = Tron Convergence. Apart from the slightly compressed sound, it had phenomenal imaging and truly stunning soundstage. It was the quietest of all four stages when no record was playing and had a really solid feel to the sound but its equalled (and bettered in some areas) by a phono stage costing half the price. Its a shame because I really liked how the Tron held its authority on a track.

4th place = FB-OTP. This placing is far closer than this suggests. It more like 3rd and 1/8ths. Its ridiculous value and only really lost out to the FB-Plus on background noise and that last little percentage of soundstage, resolution and imaging. A stunning bargain and in terms of VFM probably represents the highest return for the money. This should cost more to be honest but it doesn't so grab one before Alan stops making them. Even as a back up, its worth every penny.


Oliver.








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[struth]

Used to have a Plus, although it looked somewhat different, so guessing its undergone a few changes. It was a very good stage and blew away a whest without any trouble. Not heard any of the rest though.
Good write up ;)

[Firebottle]

A good write up Oliver. It is fair to say that the Tron did improve over the afternoon, I have no idea of it's previous hours, I suspect they are quite low.

The possible bottleneck with the Tron is it's built in SUT. A pity we couldn't have tried external SUT's or a headamp.
It is a beautifully built piece of kit though.

:)

[Bigman80]

Used to have a Plus, although it looked somewhat different, so guessing its undergone a few changes. It was a very good stage and blew away a whest without any trouble. Not heard any of the rest though.
Good write up ;)
Thanks Grant, its had a few tweaks I believe and you can tell. Absolutely fantastic phono stage.

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[Bigman80]

A good write up Oliver. It is fair to say that the Tron did improve over the afternoon, I have no idea of it's previous hours, I suspect they are quite low.

The possible bottleneck with the Tron is it's built in SUT. A pity we couldn't have tried external SUT's or a headamp.
It is a beautifully built piece of kit though.

:)
Absolutely Alan. I fear the SUTs may be holding it back. Its very well made and sounded really very good. Just not as good as the Vivant.

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[struth]

A good write up Oliver. It is fair to say that the Tron did improve over the afternoon, I have no idea of it's previous hours, I suspect they are quite low.

The possible bottleneck with the Tron is it's built in SUT. A pity we couldn't have tried external SUT's or a headamp.
It is a beautifully built piece of kit though.

:)

be interesting to adapt it to bypass its internal suts with a toggle out to say a head amp.

[Jimbo]

Nice write up Oliver. I know most of those amps and have heard a Tron but not that model, I was underwhelmed considering the price! But agree they are beautifully built.

Not a surprise the Vivant sounded the best out of that bunch as it is indeed a very good phono stage with a great transparent wide soundstage. I think the valves took this phono stage to somewhere the OTP could not reach. SS never capture that illusive Magic presentation of sound that is achieved by valves in my experience.

Always interesting comparing phono stages. I remember one particular shoot out at my first NEBO where Nick Gorams phono stage wiped the floor with everything else, it was so far ahead and very special indeed but again I think it was about £10,000:eek:

Alan needs to hear one of these:)

[Bigman80]

Nice write up Oliver. I know most of those amps and have heard a Tron but not that model, I was underwhelmed considering the price! But agree they are beautifully built.

Not a surprise the Vivant sounded the best out of that bunch as it is indeed a very good phono stage with a great transparent wide soundstage. I think the valves took this phono stage to somewhere the OTP could not reach. SS never capture that illusive Magic presentation of sound that is achieved by valves in my experience.

Always interesting comparing phono stages. I remember one particular shoot out at my first NEBO where Nick Gorams phono stage wiped the floor with everything else, it was so far ahead and very special indeed but again I think it was about £10,000:eek:

Alan needs to hear one of these:)
I completely agree about the valve aspect. It was apparent that the three phono stages with valves had that little bit extra but the OTP was right in there.



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[moodybuilder]

Have you had a chance to listen to any of the angle audio phono amps, I've recently got the studio pro which I'm very happy with.

[Bigman80]

Have you had a chance to listen to any of the angle audio phono amps, I've recently got the studio pro which I'm very happy with.
I haven't mate. I would welcome the chance to do so though.

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[smangus]

My otp is awaiting pick-up from the post office tomorrow. I'll be able to compare it to my angle audio unit when I get it up and running.

[Bigman80]

My otp is awaiting pick-up from the post office tomorrow. I'll be able to compare it to my angle audio unit when I get it up and running.
I'll look forward to that. The OTP really is a fantastic phono stage.

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[mikeyb]

Phew!

😉 😁

[Bigman80]

Phew!

😉 😁
Hahaha

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[high.spirits]

Thanks for the write up Oliver. I assume all were compared using with MC carts.

Would there be such a difference with a good MM cart do you think?
As I use a 2M Black I am not sure how much difference there would be.

[Bigman80]

You're welcome!

The Cartridge used was a VDH Linn MC. I am unsure of the specific model.

The TT was a bog standard Lenco 75.

The FB range are switchable between MM/MC.

The Tron is available as a MM or MC stage.

The 2M cart is a very good cart and I'd be surprised if you didnt hear a difference in phono stages.

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[Ali Tait]

Given the retail on the Tron, there can't be a great deal of that going on the SUT's. It would seem to make sense for them to sell a cheaper model without them..

[Bigman80]

Given the retail on the Tron, there can't be a great deal of that going on the SUT's. It would seem to make sense for them to sell a cheaper model without them..
Alan and I felt that seeing as there was only £100 difference between the MM and MC versions, not enough had been spent on the SUTs. Its still a very good phono stage though. The opposition was just better.

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[Ali Tait]

Yep, still happy with my two box FB. Need to hear how it compares to the Vivant though.

[Bigman80]

Yep, still happy with my two box FB. Need to hear how it compares to the Vivant though.
It doesn't to be fair Ali, The Vivant is well ahead on all fronts 😢 I wish it was closer because I can almost afford a FB-Plus lol

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[Ali Tait]

Well mine isn't standard. :-)

[Bigman80]

Well mine isn't standard. :-)
Ah, do tell !!! A FB-Plus+ ? Lol

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[Firebottle]

Just to put the record straight the FB OTP and the Plus and the Vivant are MC/MM switchable.

Ali, Tron do the Convergence as an MM only, at £900. As to the Vivant cast your mind back to MiBO when you had 'The Race' on and the Vivant was swapped in.

Oli, the FB of Ali's was built as a fully balanced phono stage but things have progressed on the circuit design since.

:)

[Bigman80]

Thanks for the update mate. Ill amend my post according.

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[smangus]

Well first impressions are

It's , black, shiny and smells nice. Bigger than expected too. :D

[Bigman80]

Well first impressions are

It's , black, shiny and smells nice. Bigger than expected too. :D
Lol off to a good start then 😂😂

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[Ali Tait]

Just to put the record straight the FB OTP and the Plus and the Vivant are MC/MM switchable.

Ali, Tron do the Convergence as an MM only, at £900. As to the Vivant cast your mind back to MiBO when you had 'The Race' on and the Vivant was swapped in.

Oli, the FB of Ali's was built as a fully balanced phono stage but things have progressed on the circuit design since.

:)

I do indeed recall but the head amp had hum problems, so it wasn't really like for like.

No doubt the Vivant is better, just want to hear how much better. :-)

[mikeyb]

I do indeed recall but the head amp had hum problems, so it wasn't really like for like.

No doubt the Vivant is better, just want to hear how much better. :-)
Ok ok, I can take a hint, do you want a wee shot of mine 😉 😁

[Ali Tait]

LOL that would be grand thanks.

[Firebottle]

For those that know me this will come as no surprise, I've been doing TRON mods :D

I've kept to simple modifications but it has elevated the performance so I would now say we have a change to the results of shootout.

1. FB Vivant/ KIN phono section

2= TRON

2= FB Plus

4. FB OTP

;)

[Bigman80]

Ooooo. Looking forward to getting a listen

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[Firebottle]

I remember one particular shoot out at my first NEBO where Nick Gorams phono stage wiped the floor with everything else, it was so far ahead and very special indeed but again I think it was about £10,000:eek:

Alan needs to hear one of these:)

No I need to engage in a shoot out ;)

Ali, if you get to borrow mikeyb's Vivant is there a chance you could also borrow a stage off Nick?

:cool:

[Ali Tait]

Would struggle tbh, he only has one. Can you make it to Owston?

[RothwellAudio]

... I've been doing TRON mods :D

Interesting. What modifications did you make?

[Arkless Electronics]

I had a look in a Tron reference a couple of years ago... pretty bog standard generic topology very similar to 80's Audio research and Conrad Johnson models and many others besides... Not that there is anything bad about that of course, certain topologies do become well known and are known to work well and tend to become part of, lets say the standard repertoire (think of what proportion of SS power amps use a LTP followed by a single ended Vas and push pull followers... and how many valve power amps are pretty much the same design!). if it's the same as the unit i took a butchers at it has two gain stages then a cathode follower from which series negative feedback, including the RIAA, is applied to the cathode of the input valve. As one may expect, I have a similar design of my own that i designed several years ago in computer simulation. I never got round to doing anything with it but the idea was for it to be a mid price stage, £6-700 ish.

[Firebottle]

Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.

In my experience negative feed back equalisation is never as good as passive, hence why I always use passive. Yes there are compromises to be addressed but that's the name of the game.
I think the 'standard repertoire' is also rather disappointing, I have found the same in the Convergence, but at least it uses passive equalisation, even though it is not accurate. I was hoping for some advanced design or a couple of 'tweaks' that can make a phono stage excell, but sadly not.

The modifications:
Both gain stages use standard cathode bias with an electrolytic bypass capacitor. That's a no-no in my book so they came out. Gain loss was 8dB.

To improve the linearity of the second stage I bootstrapped it from the cathode follower output, also resulting in an increased gain of 6dB.
The gain of the original circuit was high at 69dB, so a 2dB loss overall was quite acceptable.

The depth of the soundstage was improved with greater resolution.

:)

[Arkless Electronics]

Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.

In my experience negative feed back equalisation is never as good as passive, hence why I always use passive. Yes there are compromises to be addressed but that's the name of the game.
I think the 'standard repertoire' is also rather disappointing, I have found the same in the Convergence, but at least it uses passive equalisation, even though it is not accurate. I was hoping for some advanced design or a couple of 'tweaks' that can make a phono stage excell, but sadly not.

The modifications:
Both gain stages use standard cathode bias with an electrolytic bypass capacitor. That's a no-no in my book so they came out. Gain loss was 8dB.

To improve the linearity of the second stage I bootstrapped it from the cathode follower output, also resulting in an increased gain of 6dB.
The gain of the original circuit was high at 69dB, so a 2dB loss overall was quite acceptable.

The depth of the soundstage was improved with greater resolution.

:)

I didn't go as far as reverse engineering the reference so my post is based on what I could see from the top of the board... IIRC it also had electrolytic bypass caps. I assume you have changed the eq network to compensate for removing the caps? I always design for extremely accurate eq as what's the point of going for excellence elsewhere if one hasn't got the RIAA right and the thing has slightly too much/little bass/treble etc IMHO.

[G T Audio]

I had a look in a Tron reference a couple of years ago... pretty bog standard generic topology very similar to 80's Audio research and Conrad Johnson models and many others besides... Not that there is anything bad about that of course, certain topologies do become well known and are known to work well and tend to become part of, lets say the standard repertoire (think of what proportion of SS power amps use a LTP followed by a single ended Vas and push pull followers... and how many valve power amps are pretty much the same design!). if it's the same as the unit i took a butchers at it has two gain stages then a cathode follower from which series negative feedback, including the RIAA, is applied to the cathode of the input valve. As one may expect, I have a similar design of my own that i designed several years ago in computer simulation. I never got round to doing anything with it but the idea was for it to be a mid price stage, £6-700 ish.


There is nothing remotely similar in the Tron Seven Reference phono stage to ARC and Conrad Johnson models of the 80's other than the 3 valves in the circuit. There is certainly no feedback in the circuit apart from the cathode follower output stage and certainly no link back to the input stage...

[Arkless Electronics]

There is nothing remotely similar in the Tron Seven Reference phono stage to ARC and Conrad Johnson models of the 80's other than the 3 valves in the circuit. There is certainly no feedback in the circuit apart from the cathode follower output stage and certainly no link back to the input stage...

I only took a quick gander at the top of the board and the layout suggested this topology. I didn't even lift the board as it was only in for a check over before being sold. I don't reverse engineer anyone's current kit, not cricket :) It's your design so I'm sure you're quite right.

[G T Audio]

Hi Jez, that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it.

That's good to know because there are over 1000 satisfied Tron Seven owners around the world who are very happy with theirs... Also the Tron Seven has been in continuous production for 11 years...

BTW I have the serial number recorded on the Convergence you have modified so the 2 year warranty is now void.

[Marco]

Hi Graham,

Before you go any further, you'll need to open a trade account. Therefore, please PM me so we can sort that out. No further posts on the forum until then. Cheers!

Marco.

[Bigman80]

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[Firebottle]

That's good to know because there are over 1000 satisfied Tron Seven owners around the world who are very happy with theirs... Also the Tron Seven has been in continuous production for 11 years...

BTW I have the serial number recorded on the Convergence you have modified so the 2 year warranty is now void.

Hi Graham,

I am only stating my personal opinion given that it was suggested that the Reference used feedback equalisation.
I'm more than happy that there are many satisfied Tron customers, more power to your elbow.

The lack of warranty is of no concern to me as I would expect something of the quality of the Tron to perform faultlessly for many many years.

:cool:

[RothwellAudio]

if it's the same as the unit i took a butchers at it has two gain stages then a cathode follower from which series negative feedback, including the RIAA, is applied to the cathode of the input valve.


...that's very interesting to know about the Tron reference. I can state categorically I wouldn't like it, without even hearing it. In my experience negative feed back equalisation is never as good as passive

I know that since Jez made that post it has become clear that the Tron does not have the RIAA EQ in the feedback loop, but it still raises the question of the relative merits of active versus passive RIAA EQ.
For what it's worth, my view is although feedback reduces distortion it can only work properly if the feedback network itself is free from distortion. If there's a distortion generating component in the feedback loop (which a capacitor can be), the feedback cannot work in the textbook manner. I wish I could do a mathematical analysis of a feedback system with distortion within the feedback loop, but I'm afraid it's a bit beyond me.

[Bigman80]

I just wish I knew what all of that meant 😂😂

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[Arkless Electronics]

I know that since Jez made that post it has become clear that the Tron does not have the RIAA EQ in the feedback loop, but it still raises the question of the relative merits of active versus passive RIAA EQ.
For what it's worth, my view is although feedback reduces distortion it can only work properly if the feedback network itself is free from distortion. If there's a distortion generating component in the feedback loop (which a capacitor can be), the feedback cannot work in the textbook manner. I wish I could do a mathematical analysis of a feedback system with distortion within the feedback loop, but I'm afraid it's a bit beyond me.

Personally I don't have a problem with feedback RIAA as such. There have been many fine phono stages over the years that use feedback EQ and also many that use passive eq and I have had great results with both... or combinations of them. There are certain issues to bear in mind such as with series feedback the minimum gain is unity and so the top end does not keep rolling off with frequency indefinitely. Some units have even had an extra passive pole added after the actual RIAA eq to combat this and some have also claimed greater compliance with unofficial eq applied by Neumann lathes to records by playing with this extra pole... it is in dispute whether or not this Neumann lathes thing even exists though!

The main problem with passive eq is that it needs great headroom in the driving stage and this makes it generally an iffy proposition with solid state phono stages as they will usually have poor overload margin and may clip on clicks and ticks from the record. It's a trade off in noise against headroom ultimately and often a compromise can be found which will give good subjective results in a passive SS design, but, it will always be rather marginal on overload.... In a valve stage with likely 200V or so available this is usually not an issue.

[Firebottle]

Spot on Jez.

[RothwellAudio]

Yes, I agree with everything you say, but none of it addresses the issue of feedback components which produce distortion. Consider for a moment an amplifier with a flat frequency response (simply because it removes some complexity). A portion of the output is taken with a potential divider and fed back to the input. The potential divider is made up of two resistors, and the feedback reduces distortion etc. But what if the resistors are themselves non-linear? Imagine that the op-amp has zero distortion to start with but the signal which is fed back has been distorted by the two resistors. Would the op-amp still produce zero distortion?
Now consider what happens with capacitors in the feedback potential divider. Capacitors are much more likely to produce distortion than resistors are.

Maybe I'll make a more serious attempt to get to grips with the maths.

[Arkless Electronics]

Yes, I agree with everything you say, but none of it addresses the issue of feedback components which produce distortion. Consider for a moment an amplifier with a flat frequency response (simply because it removes some complexity). A portion of the output is taken with a potential divider and fed back to the input. The potential divider is made up of two resistors, and the feedback reduces distortion etc. But what if the resistors are themselves non-linear? Imagine that the op-amp has zero distortion to start with but the signal which is fed back has been distorted by the two resistors. Would the op-amp still produce zero distortion?
Now consider what happens with capacitors in the feedback potential divider. Capacitors are much more likely to produce distortion than resistors are.

Maybe I'll make a more serious attempt to get to grips with the maths.

The distortion produced by good quality resistors and by the types of capacitor dielectric used in eq stages would be so small as to be immeasurable though... also this would apply to every feed back amp and not only phono stages... then what of this distortion from all other resistors and capacitors in the signal path?

[RothwellAudio]

... also this would apply to every feed back amp and not only phono stages...

That's the point I'm trying to make, apparently without much success.

[Firebottle]

Well I've done some further modification on the EQ network in the Tron and it has brought the performance up a lot.

Whereas previously I rated the Tron as an equal second with my Plus phono stage it is now a very close second to my KIN/Vivant unit.

It is stunningly quiet, that certainly is one of it's great strengths, but now the gain has been increased a bit more and the spaciousness of the sound is sublime. The KIN still has a smidgen of greater 'immediacy' about it.

Graham if you are reading this you will be missing a trick if you don't incorporate these simple modifications into the design of the Convergenge.
I would be proud to put a Firebottle badge on it now.

:)

[Bigman80]

I want first dibs on this when yiu decide to let it go, Alan.

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[Marco]

Hi Alan,

All good stuff, and it's always interesting (and useful) sharing such information for the possible benefit of the membership. However, I'd bear in mind and be respectful of the fact that you're comparing your phono stage against that of another (well established) manufacturer, and albeit indirectly, criticising it.

Think about how you'd feel about that if the roles were reversed, and Graham was on, say pfm, waxing lyrical about how he had successfully modified and improved one of your designs... I'd concentrate more on discussing the continuing development of your own phono stages than on your experiments with improving others.

Just something to think about mate, that's all :)

Marco.

[karma67]

there is one manufacturer that would welcome a shoot out with alans one,im sure we'd all like to hear the results of that one :eyebrows:

[Firebottle]

With respect Marco I totally disagree, which is unusual for the two of us.

I feel I have been quite complementary about the Tron Convergence, it is a very good stage. The build standard is fantastic and it is the quietest phono stage I have ever heard.
If your hypothetical case were true and Graham had said he had improved one of my designs then I would have great respect for his talents.
In my opinion no design is perfect, there is always some room for improvement; in some cases that would probably take a ton of money thrown at it to effect such an improvement.

However I have learnt an awful lot about phono stage design in the past 4 years and there is more than one way to skin a rabbit, as they say.
I have only done minor modifications to the circuitry of the Tron, remembering that it is my property, and in my opinion the performance is considerably better.

I appreciate that any design is restricted to an extent by the target selling price, but with the modifications I have made the unit would not suffer an increase in price.
If Graham would like to know the details of the circuit changes then I am more than willing to share them with him, without prejudice.

My attitude is that it is all about improving the quality of sound for everyone, which is why I share my expertise willingly on AoS.

:cool:

[Firebottle]

there is one manufacturer that would welcome a shoot out with alans one,im sure we'd all like to hear the results of that one :eyebrows:

If you mean NVA then I pissed all over that one :D

[blackstar]

A 'proper' shootout is what's needed, say at some show like Scalford, where one room can be held back for the day with kit acceptable to all the phono stage manufacturers, then give them an hour each.

We would all be able to see and hear who pisses over who then.

[karma67]

Yep that would be a fair and honest way imo

[Bigman80]

there is one manufacturer that would welcome a shoot out with alans one,im sure we'd all like to hear the results of that one :eyebrows:
Who might this be? No one has taken up the challenge!

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[Bigman80]

If you mean NVA then I pissed all over that one :D
😂😂😂😂

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[Bigman80]

Scalford ay. Thats an interesting idea. What about a dedicated panel?

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[karma67]

Well he is up for it so it's just down to alan 😄

[Marco]

With respect Marco I totally disagree, which is unusual for the two of us.

I feel I have been quite complementary about the Tron Convergence, it is a very good stage. The build standard is fantastic and it is the quietest phono stage I have ever heard.
If your hypothetical case were true and Graham had said he had improved one of my designs then I would have great respect for his talents.
In my opinion no design is perfect, there is always some room for improvement; in some cases that would probably take a ton of money thrown at it to effect such an improvement.


No problem, Alan. We can disagree sometimes, as well as agree, and that's fine. The main point I was making was contained in my last sentence: perhaps think more about how what you're doing is impacting on the designer of the products you're 'improving' (I'm using inverted commas in this instance because I haven't heard what you've heard, but wouldn't doubt you).

In that respect, I'm pretty sure that Graham's not taking your modifying of his designs, despite what you say, in any way as "complimentary", and as registered traders here, it's up to you guys how you sort that out.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Pretty sure Rock Grotto openly advertise their services to modify and improve tube buffers, J7 has made a good reputation for upgrading tonearms etc so not sure why there has been such a reaction to modifying a Tron.

This whole thing is starting to get a bit OTT. Graham obviously wasn't happy with the tinkering done to his Tron, which is his prerogative but withholding information that may benefit other members is surely counter productive to the ethos of the forum?

I think a shootout is a great idea with the invitation open to any builer/designer and adjudicated by a panel. Its should be done only if there is a full write-up regardless of how the results would affect the designer.

Thinking of Grahams situation here, I am 100% that no negativity about the quality of his work, phono stage etc has taken place. The Tron is a fabulous unit .

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Pretty sure Rock Grotto openly advertise their services to modify and improve tube buffers, J7 has made a good reputation for upgrading tonearms etc so not sure why there has been such a reaction to modifying a Tron.

This whole thing is starting to get a bit OTT. Graham obviously wasn't happy with the tinkering done to his Tron, which is his prerogative but withholding information that may benefit other members is surely counter productive to the ethos of the forum?


No-one's talking about "withholding information", Oliver. Where did you get that from? Quite the opposite is happening. Neither has anything been "OTT", unless you expect Graham simply to sit back, be unhappy, and do nothing?

All I'm saying is that, as much as I admire the work that Alan's doing, and consider it as a good thing for AoS members and other folks reading, who may want to go down a similar route, it's important to see the other side, too.

No more, no less! :)

Marco.

[Bigman80]

No-one's talking about "withholding information", Oliver. Where did you get that from? Quite the opposite is happening. Neither has anything been "OTT", unless you expect Graham simply to sit back, be unhappy, and do nothing?

All I'm saying is that, as much as I admire the work that Alan's doing, and consider it as a good thing for AoS members and other folks reading who may want to go down a similar route, it's important to see the other side, too.

No more, no less! :)

Marco.
I was suggesting that had Alan realised the mods made such a difference and not published them, that would be against the ethos as I understand it. We're all here to improve our systems essentially and to seek advice.

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[Marco]

Indeed so, and no-one was suggesting that Alan shouldn't have published them. However, at the same time, when he did, it's understandable that there may have been a reaction from those who didn't consider what he was doing was in their best interests.

Try and put yourself in Graham's position, for a moment, instead of what's best for you, Alan or AoS. That's all I'm saying. It's important that the interests of ALL registered traders here are considered and that no-one receives preferential treatment.

*Everyone* is treated the same here, and so no-one's 'pet products' (or favourite manufacturer) will be considered as representing the 'de facto standard' on AoS.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

It's time to be clear about what's happened , it was me who reported your post to Marco , I pointed out that it would be more tactful to contact Tron/GT Audio directly through PM and to discuss any "improvements" with Graham, not publicly state I could have done it better , if so do it and try to match Tron's sales numbers or you're just a little Crusader trying to bring best sound quality to the members of AoS (kind of your words) if so I'll take one of your stages for free then.
Another thing I pointed out , do you have any empirical proof that your changes make any effect on frequency response , S/N ratio , etc... if so please provide , I would love to see measurements of couple different phono stages to make sure is not your setup (tonearm/cartridge) which is at wrong and changes you're making are actually not a improvement but it just "sounds" better in the very specific setup , I'm not entirely sure but Tron is tube based isn't, in this case have you measured tubes themselves prior to your listening test to check how their affect what you are "hearing"
As I have mentioned to Marco I do not own any of Tron products neither do I have any commercial or private connection with GT Audio ( sorry I do own Zyx cartridge and Graham is a main distributor).
Have a good day
Sorry to say this, Slav but the tone of your post is condescending and disrespectful.

"Just a little crusader" "match Tron's sales numbers" ???

No one has disputed how successful Graham has been and how successful I hope he is in the future.

The need for testing every single scientific difference is not necessarily as your ears tell you everything you need to know. Have you scientifically tested every pair of speaker cables you've tried to see which are the best or did you plug them in and listen then pick the ones that sound best?

Im also wondering where the unbiased protection is for ALL registered traders.

Whilst talking about tact, why didnt you message Alan directly and raise your concerns/opinion with him?

Seems you prefered to jump on this thread and throw insulting phrases around.

Like I said Marco, its getting OTT. As the OP, I am requesting this thread be closed. please feel free to delete all the content apart from the original post.

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Like I said Marco, its getting OTT. As the OP, I am requesting this thread be closed. please feel free to delete all the content apart from the original post.


For goodness sake, Oliver. Get a grip... When you start a thread, you can't expect it all to go your own way! Also, regardless of being the OP, the mods and I have the final say of when threads should be locked, and so if that happens, it'll take place on our terms, not yours.

People with a different opinions are entitled to express them, although I agree that the "little crusader" comment from Slav was insulting and out of order, which he should retract.

However, nothing is "getting OTT", unless you have an objection to robust debate, or someone making a point you don't like. We don't practice censorship here, therefore the thread will be staying open (until it's decided otherwise by us), so that everyone can have their fair say.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

For goodness sake, Oliver. Get a grip... When you start a thread, you can't expect it all to go your own way! People with a different opinions are entitled to express them, although I agree that the "little crusader" comment from Slav was out of order, which he should retract.

However, nothing is "getting OTT", unless you have an objection to robust debate, or someone saying something you don't like. We don't practice censorship here. Therefore, the thread will be staying open, so that everyone can have their fair say.

Marco.
I have no issue with debate and I am happy to debate with anyone. I am also in no need of "getting a grip" but thanks for the advice.

There is no "my way" as I am not invested in the direction of any product other than the FB-OTP. The very phonostage that finished last in our tests 😂

The debate is focused mainly on GT being upset, Firebottle revealing a mod and who should have done what, rather than the shootout itself which is why I felt it wasn't serving its purpose as a review thread hence my request to close it.


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[Bigman80]

I admit I went OTT and I apologise to Alan ,
To answer your question about measurement , yes I do buy HiFi based on measurement , I shortlist best and do listening tests then , same with analogue hence my Zyx despite sounding nice went back for inspection after 100hours of use as I wasn't impressed with it's frequency response .
Once again I apologise concerned/insulted members
Fair enough, slav. I suspect when youve selected the best on spec you then buy with your ears as we all do. I do understand your point and I respect it but my ears tell me the difference with and without the mod and thats in comparison with itself!

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[Bigman80]

My point was "improvement" should be measurable otherwise is not an improvement but just different , somehow skewed version .
You need to measure something before trying to improve it , as I said earlier initial setup might not have been "correct" and if you applied same changes in the more truthful setup it might not bring any improvement but something completely opposite, just my opinion on the subject.
Does a perfectly formed square wave suffice as measurable? If so the Tron now produces perfect square waves which wasn't the case previously?

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[Barry]

Does a perfectly formed square wave suffice as measurable? If so the Tron now produces perfect square waves which wasn't the case previously?

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At what frequency? 20Hz, 1kHz or 10kHz?

[Bigman80]

Good question lol. I think it was 1khz but im not 100%

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[Marco]

I have no issue with debate and I am happy to debate with anyone. I am also in no need of "getting a grip" but thanks for the advice.


Well, Oliver, firstly if you're happy to debate with anyone, then why request that the thread is closed, and therefore shut down the debate? Quite simply, those two stances are not mutually compatible.

Secondly, if I think you need to get a grip, I'll tell you. You (seemingly) throwing your toys out the pram because things weren't all going your way, and saying that the thread should be closed, was ample reason for me to tell you to get a grip! Petulance will always be given short shrift here.

Lastly, please understand that WE (the mods and myself) are the ones who decide whether threads are serving their purpose or otherwise, not you, or for that matter anyone else, and you must respect that.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Well, Oliver, firstly if you're happy to debate with anyone, then why request that the thread is closed, and therefore shut down the debate? Quite simply, those two stances are not mutually compatible.

Secondly, if I think you need to get a grip, I'll tell you. You (seemingly) throwing your toys out the pram because things weren't all going your way, and saying that the thread should be closed, was ample reason for me to tell you to get a grip! Petulance here will always be given short shrift.

Lastly, please understand that WE (the mods and myself) are the ones who decide whether threads are serving their purpose or otherwise, not you, or for that matter anyone else, and you must respect that.

Marco.
Im afraid youre taking the wrong stance with me Marco. Im in no way going to accept being spoken to like a petulant child by you or anyone else.

I requested the thread be closed as I felt it was no longer serving the purpose intended. As the author it is my right to request and as a Mod, its right right to decline.

No toys were thrown at any point regardless of your opinion.

Also, I am still unsure of what is supppsed to be going my way. It was an unbiased write up so by the very term "unbiased" I have no preference in which phono stage is the winner

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

[Marco]

Im afraid youre taking the wrong stance with me Marco. Im in no way going to accept being spoken to like a petulant child by you or anyone else.


Oliver, I'll take the stance with you that I think is necessary, as I'm owner of this forum, so my decisions are final and not up for debate. You're certainly taking the wrong stance with me, and a dangerous one too, if you value retaining your membership.

If you don't want to be treated as a "petulant child" then, quite simply, don't act like one! Continually requesting that the thread is closed because you don't approve of the direction it's taking *is* an act of petulance, whether you agree or not.

As I've said, it's not up to you to decide whether a thread is serving its purpose or otherwise. Discussions on AoS are 'organic', and so can evolve in unpredictable ways. As long as they're being carried out politely and respectfully by all concerned, and no-one is behaving unsatisfactorily, then there are no rules about what direction they should take.

The only exception to this is in the classifieds section with sales threads.

However, you seem to be one of these folk who go on and on, insisting on things being as YOU say they should, and don't know when to STFU and respect ultimately who makes the decisions here. Therefore, any further 'backchat' from you will result in a week's holiday, so I suggest that you wind your neck in now and give it a rest.

Marco.

[Bigman80]

Oliver, I'll take the stance with you that I think is necessary, as I'm owner of this forum, so my decisions are not up for debate. You're certainly taking the wrong stance with me, and a dangerous one, if you value your membership here.

However, you seem to be one of these folk who go on and on, insisting on things being as YOU say they should be, and don't know when to STFU and respect ultimately who makes the decisions here. Therefore, any further 'backchat' from you will result in a week's holiday, so I suggest that you wind your neck in now and give it a rest.

Marco.

Lol STFU?? !!! So, dare to challenge your opinion and all of a sudden your "Championing debate" attitude turns into a threat. Silencing those who disagree with you while you hold power. Moderator/Dictator. (Is this classed as back chat?)

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[Marco]

As warned, Oliver has been banned [for the duration of a week] for the above post and continually arguing with moderating decisions. In this case, it's not my "opinion" being disputed. Moderating decisions are FINAL, an so not up for 'challenge' or debate. It's as simple as that.

Some folk need to LEARN that when you're told by a mod or a member of admin that your behaviour is unacceptable, then you gracefully accept that and comply accordingly. There is NO other acceptable reaction!

Now, I insist that this thread gets back on topic, so any posts which don't comply with that will be removed, without further warning, and those responsible will receive the same fate as Oliver.

[Admin edit: on reflection, I would apologise for the 'STFU" comment, which I agree was OTT, but arose simply because Oliver was continually arguing, instead of simply complying with my moderating decision].

Marco.