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REM
15-01-2010, 16:38
...is here, at last, and even I managed to fit it! (only needed one call to Mr. Cawley for a bit of clarification).
So, how does it sound? Well, three sides in and without any fine tuning (rechecking VTA or re-leveling the deck as you're supposed to but I'm just to impatient for any of that stuff yet) I have to say this is fan-bloody-tastic:eek:. Everything is just so much clearer yet easier to listen to, instruments seem to exist in their own space, dynamically everything is in a different league, so much so I can back off the volume without losing any details.
This is amazing, check back later, time for more choonz:)

Alex_UK
15-01-2010, 18:33
Sounds ace, Ralph, enjoy!

(I can hear Marco's cheque book rustling from here! ;))

REM
15-01-2010, 18:57
(I can hear Marco's cheque book rustling from here! ;))

Hehe, come on Marco, you know you want to, there is no escape:smoking::smoking:.

Bloody 'eck, it's a bit good is this:cool:

chris@panteg
15-01-2010, 22:50
I think Marco already had one on order !

Nice one Ralph ' i thought it was going to be a bit special ' anyone else got there's yet ' Martin perhaps !

Marco
15-01-2010, 23:49
Haha... Nice one, Ralph - glad it's hitting the spot for ya :)

This is where the Techy really takes off!

I'm booked in at Dave's on the 28th, so once mine is fitted, expect a full write-up, folks - and I'll be going into plenty of detail with this one :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
16-01-2010, 00:12
Hi Marco

Look forward to reading that ' i am sure it will be far more eloquent than the haphazardous affair i concocted :).

MartinT
16-01-2010, 12:37
I received my Mike New bearing this morning and have installed it. No real problems with the installation except that care is required and good light vital. You certainly don't want to drop any of the 18 small pieces of wire that need trimming back onto the circuit board. Some PCB connectors need to be removed to gain good access. Nothing really to get worried about but you do need to work carefully around that gorgeous motor assembly. Also note that the earth tag needs replacing tightly if you have a TimeStep PSU installed (surely a prerequisite).

The Mike New bearing up close:
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Technics MN Bearing.jpg

Installed in my SL-1210:
http://www.mtc.me.uk/images/Technics MN Bearing 2.jpg

50 hours of running-in are recommended so these are my preliminary thoughts only. There is a lightness of touch and real shape to tiny cues that make music real: cymbal, bells and other percussive sounds. Positioning in space and focus around vocals are more life-like. The structure of the sound is firmer without there apparently being any more bass, and dynamics are even more in evidence. Lots of small detail enrich the experience.

The Technics does even more of what it does well: tonal neutrality, micro- and macro-dynamics, strong and extended bass, wide soundstage, very low noise floor. I'm also relieved that my other phono components (Jelco arm, Whest phono amp) have gelled together to give a performance that is more than their sum.

My AT33PTG suddenly sounds more like my Denon DL-160 in terms of musicality and sheer enthusiasm, a good thing, while still retaining its phenomenal detail and extraordinary suppression of surface noise.

I'll report further after more running-in and listening.

chris@panteg
16-01-2010, 14:40
Superb photo's and write up Martin ' my word it does look the bis

Happy listening .

Griffster
17-01-2010, 10:30
I'm still right at the beginning of my Techie-tweaking journey (things move more slowly when you're forever chasing around after a 2.5yr old little boy with lots of energy!) but this mod certainly sounds like it need to be added to the "essentials" list.

Looking forward to others experiences with great interest.

Sean
(Junior Techie-Tweaker).

Ammonite Acoustics
18-01-2010, 14:38
I have today taken the plunge and ordered the Mike New bearing for my Technics!

Marco
18-01-2010, 22:05
Nice one, Shuggs - I'm sure you won't regret it :)

Marco.

Nigel
20-01-2010, 09:29
Hi,

Did you use all the oil supplied? That looks the hardest bit, getting the oil in the bearing.

MartinT
20-01-2010, 09:46
No - I used less than half until it formed a meniscus at the top around the bearing in the recessed well.

Nigel
20-01-2010, 15:46
Cheers.

Half is more than enough then. Looks the hardest bit of the installation to me, the gap for the oil to enter is fairly small so I imagine it's quite a slow procedure. My bearing came today, probably leave it until the weekend to fit though.

MartinT
20-01-2010, 16:07
I should really have said "very much less than half". In reality, it needed a few drops.

REM
20-01-2010, 16:29
Hi Nigel

It really is a straightforward job, when it comes to the oil you don't 'fill' the bearing at all just top it off with a few drops, that's all.
Believe me, if I can manage it in less than an hour then it really is easy, hardest part for me has been re-leveling the deck I swear I've got a dodgy bubble in my spirit level!

Cheers

ps; If you do it tonight and leave it spinning it'll be nicely run in for the weekend, nudge, nudge,;),;).

Nigel
21-01-2010, 15:55
Cheers,

Managed to fit the bearing no problem. Embarrassingly, I failed to notice that the three long screws fixed directly into the plinth & for one head scratching moment couldn't for the life of me fathom out how they could possibly hold the bearing rigidly in place.

If you spin it at 45 RPM does this cut down on the running in time lol.

Nigel
21-01-2010, 16:30
Have you tried a record clamp / weight yet?

MartinT
21-01-2010, 16:32
I wondered that! I eventually just left it running at 33rpm for 48 hours. Now sounding very nice indeed.

MartinT
21-01-2010, 16:32
I use a Bruil record weight, always have since getting the Techie. It adds weight - 'scuse the pun.

freem
21-01-2010, 16:36
Fitted the Mike New bearing yesterday without any problems. Mods to date are Herbie mat, Isonoe feet, Timestep power supply, SME 309. Either the bearing is the best upgrade yet or it's just letting the others talk. Awesome.

REM
21-01-2010, 16:45
.... Mods to date are Herbie mat, Isonoe feet, Timestep power supply, SME 309. ..... Awesome.

That's a clone of my Techie, awesome is the word that's for sure! What cartridge are you using, btw?:)

freem
21-01-2010, 18:36
That's a clone of my Techie, awesome is the word that's for sure! What cartridge are you using, btw?:)

Musicmaker3

Magna Audio
21-01-2010, 21:29
Interesting reports guys.

I am getting fed up prospecting knackered SP-10's in the hope I may get a good one. This bearing is getting tempting...

Dave Cawley
21-01-2010, 22:50
Hi Steve

I'm not sure your arms are compatible with the SL-1200. If you want a good SP-10, at a price, I can supply.

Regards

Dave

Magna Audio
23-01-2010, 01:24
Hi Steve

I'm not sure your arms are compatible with the SL-1200. If you want a good SP-10, at a price, I can supply.

Regards

Dave

I'm guessing you are probably not sure because you have not heard it?;)
Was playing my deck against Mr Coco's SP-10 tonight through his LCR phonostage, 308b's and GRF's. The deck / PL-71 arm / SPU were doing wonderful things indeed.
Ultimately not as accurate as the SP-10 / SMEV12 / IO perhaps but very very pleasing musically. Listened late in to the evening...

Marco
23-01-2010, 10:53
Steve, that's interesting. Are you coming to Scalford Hall? If so, could you bring your deck? I'd love to hear it with either the Pioneer arm or the air-bearing jobby :)

Dave, I'd remain open-minded - I'm sure there are other arms out there that could be added to the 'holistic list' for the SL-1200 ;)

The only way to find out is to try them and see!

Marco.

chris@panteg
23-01-2010, 13:03
Hi Marco

How about an Ekos or even an Ekos se ' sacrilege maybe but i would love to hear one on a Fully modded techie with the Mike new bearing naturally .

PS the Ekos is the thing i miss most about my old LP12 ' in fact i been thinking about it this morning:wah:

REM
23-01-2010, 15:56
How about an Aro for a bit of unipivot grooviness?:)

Magna Audio
24-01-2010, 11:13
Yeah I will try to come along and the deck / PSU is doable compared to the GRF's:)

I wrote a fuller report of the evening with the SP-10 on the wam.
Will cut and paste in a new thread for AOS'ers...

YNWaN
24-01-2010, 11:23
I had a look at Dave's replacement 1200 bearing at the Manchester show yesterday. It certainly caught my interest and looked to be very nicely made. I see that it has been engineered to produce a very high level of drag (most successfully too) and this strikes me as a good idea and well suited to this particular turntable. If I had a 1200 I would certainly want to try this product.

chris@panteg
24-01-2010, 11:48
That's what i have in mine ' its been nearly a month now so almost 100% run in .

There are striking difference's , even though i have the standard arm ' its easy to hear

I would say to me the most amazing improvement of all is the change in tonal balance and presentation , of course the bass is better ' improved timing and so on .

But its so much lighter tonally ' it has an open airy quality , gone is that opaque darkness which is often levelled at the stock 1200 and rightly so too .

DSJR
24-01-2010, 11:57
I had a look at Dave's replacement 1200 bearing at the Manchester show yesterday. It certainly caught my interest and looked to be very nicely made. I see that it has been engineered to produce a very high level of drag (most successfully too) and this strikes me as a good idea and well suited to this particular turntable. If I had a 1200 I would certainly want to try this product.

Mark, I'm not baiting, but why all this drag? is it in the lubricant, or in the tight tolerances do you think?

Shouldn't the bearing be free rather than tight?

I'm not an engineer but would like as simple an answer as it's possible to give..

YNWaN
24-01-2010, 12:22
Well Dave, It's not really for me to say as I didn't design it. However, high drag bearings have very much been in my mind these last few months so if I may hypothesise. The drag itself, I would expect, is created by a combination of tight tolerance coupled to very viscous lubrication. As you are aware the 1200 uses a feedback loop to constantly detect and correct speed errors. I have also looked into (and experimented with) feedback loops and error correction of this nature. A high drag bearing will mean that the system is unable to make very quick alterations to the system (it also means that such alterations may well be less necessary). In addition, a constant load is presented to the motor. In this situation I think it is a good idea (for what that is worth). The ear is remarkably adept at hearing very quick adjustments to pitch and timing whilst it is remarkably forgiving of longer term changes. Effectively the high drag alters the time constant of the error correction.

The bearing is free - this should not be confused with drag; it is not a high friction bearing.

Brinkmann use an interesting alternative DD solution. In their case they use a very low torque DD motor which uses relatively few poles. The platter is intended to behave as a true flywheel as the motor has insufficient torque to do anything other than input sufficient energy to overcome losses in the system (bearing friction, stylus drag).

The only problem I foresee (in an engineering sense) with high drag bearings is the requirement to ensure that drag remains absolutely consistent over a large time frame. I'm not saying this is a problem in this particular instance but it is something I have considered during my own investigations.

chris@panteg
24-01-2010, 12:39
I can understand that ' would that explain why the new bearing gives a much greater sense of space and air around everything , although it may be a combination of the Timestep psu and bearing working together ' which is why Dave recommends getting the psu 1st .

YNWaN
24-01-2010, 12:49
An increased sense of 'space and air' is usually the result of reduced noise in the system and the way in which the arm, chassis, platter and record are coupled.

In a record player the noise I refer to can be very subtle indeed. Many people expect such noise to be audible with the naked ear (grinding noises from the motor for example) but I am assuming such noise is already at a very low level; even very tiny level of noise in the system corrupt the output - remember how tiny the signal produced by a low output MC cartridge is - particularly at high frequencies where many of the auditory cues that suggest 'space and air' exist.

chris@panteg
24-01-2010, 13:09
So the feedback loop error correction is doing a lot less work and we have much lower noise and friction in the bearing ' these are the two main advantages over the original bearing and indeed psu .

DSJR
24-01-2010, 15:27
Thank you Mark...

Obviously this wouldn't work in my SL150 and Dual 701, as the motors don't have much if any over-torque in either deck. To be fair, neither of these "hunt" either - if they're given drag they just slow a tiny bit and then return to nominal...

Perhaps Mike or Dave Cawley could post a reason for this design? Like you, from afar I'd suggest a viscous lubrication rather than a high friction bearing...:)

YNWaN
24-01-2010, 16:28
Thank you Mark

No problem, happy to help. However, this is only my interpretation of the situation - the actual designer may feel differently.


Obviously this wouldn't work in my SL150 and Dual 701, as the motors don't have much if any over-torque in either deck. To be fair, neither of these "hunt" either - if they're given drag they just slow a tiny bit and then return to nominal...

I couldn't comment directly as I am insufficiently informed with regard to those decks. What I would say is that there should be sufficient rotational potential in the system (be that from the motor or from a rotating mass) to overcome any drag that the system may encounter. Observing how the platter behaves when a finger is applied tells you something about the absolute torque of the motor but very little with regard to how the system actually behaves when playing a record.


So the feedback loop error correction is doing a lot less work.

I'm not so sure that feedback loop is actualy doing less work (it may be but I would have to look at the system more closely) - however, it is likely that the work it is doing impacts upon the system in a quite different manner.

pure sound
24-01-2010, 17:44
JC Verdier has enthused about the idea of a high drag bearing for a good number of years, feeling that it allows a degree of constancy & control to the rotation.

there is a piece about it somewhere on t' interweb.

Dave Hewitt
24-01-2010, 22:12
Hi
Isnt this what the magnetic brake on Garrard idler drive decks is doing?
Dave.

Dave Cawley
25-01-2010, 08:18
Turntables are not gas turbines rotating at 30,000 rpm where noise does not matter. A turntable bearing at 33 rpm has to be firstly very low noise and secondly not allow and movement in any plane at all. That is what both of our bearings do

Dave

chris@panteg
25-01-2010, 11:47
It certainly does

We all know how important the main bearing is ' take the LP12 bearing i have always thought it of the highest quality .

But why is the original 1200 bearing such an odd design ' is it because its basically cheap and sort of idiot proof and just about does the job ' keeping noise and rumble within a certain spec ? .

Ammonite Acoustics
25-01-2010, 13:44
The Mike New bearing arrived just before lunch, and is already installed and running in. It's very straightforward. Thanks to Dave for providing such clear instructions, which could be safely followed by even the most timid Technics owner.

I shall desist from posting any impressions until it's had a few days of continuous running.

DSJR
25-01-2010, 14:07
The original bearing looks as if it retains the cut-out in the casting where the auto-cam would have been had it been a 1300 or 1400 mk3 or whatever..

It does appear to me from experience that any "rock" in the bearing is not a good thing. One way with sealed bearings is to all but flood the thing with viscous gear-box oil, which can help to cut the effects of "rock" down. The techie bearing doesn't look to allow a viscous oil-bath so I reckon that both the alternatives are to tighten tolerances and improve on the thrust plate. Once this is done, I wonder how much heavier the "new" platter will be??????????

Ammonite Acoustics
25-01-2010, 19:03
I can't contain myself!

Listening to a new Speakers Corner reissue of Lou Read's Transformer, which I bought myself for Christmas, I am struck by various improvements over the stock bearing. Firstly, the imaging is extraordinary (it wasn't bad before). Next, the edge definition of notes is quite literally palpable, and on top of that there's such delicacy to minor details. Lastly, I never noticed on New York Telephone Conversation that there were two voices!

This is a wonderful cue to explore my entire LP collection, much of which I've ignored for many years.

MartinT
25-01-2010, 19:10
Nice one Shuggie. I too am in 'discovery' mode. I am hearing new things in hackneyed records like Supertramp / Crime of the Century as well as more obsure treasures like Poco / Blue and Gray. I am now appreciating my arm and cartridge more than ever.

Marco
25-01-2010, 20:21
Great stuff, chaps.... My Techy's being 'Mike New'd' on Thursday, so can't wait! :)

With the new bearing and the forthcoming platter mods, I think that the days of 'coveting' SP10s are fast coming to an end.... ;)

Marco.

DSJR
25-01-2010, 20:28
Oh I dunno, the SP10 is so MANLY Marco and way above pimply DJ's..:lol:

Marco
25-01-2010, 20:39
Arf! - I was thinking of putting a spoiler and painting some 'go faster' strips on the 1210 to celebrate its fully 'race-tuned' status! :lol:

Marco.

YNWaN
25-01-2010, 21:09
Listening to a new Speakers Corner reissue of Lou Read's Transformer, which I bought myself for Christmas, I am struck by various improvements over the stock bearing. Firstly, the imaging is extraordinary (it wasn't bad before). Next, the edge definition of notes is quite literally palpable, and on top of that there's such delicacy to minor details. Lastly, I never noticed on New York Telephone Conversation that there were two voices!

All of these (rather well described) differences are ones that I have also noted when bearing noise is reduced.

Mike_New
27-01-2010, 05:47
Hi YNWaN,
I have only just joined this forum on the reccomendation of a happy bearing user, I did not know about it before!! So hello everyone and I am encouraged to read that you all seem to be experiencing the ideals that I set when I designed and machined up the first protoype.
I do however have one observation/comment regarding drag.
I did not specifically design any degree of drag into the bearing Per Se, rather it is a function of the extremely close fit between the spindle and the honed "oilite" bearing bush, less than 0.008 mm The oil used is very thin, but still the viscous friction in such a very small clearance causes the very smooth tight feel.

MartinT
27-01-2010, 07:30
Hello Mike and welcome. I greatly admire the engineering that went into the bearing, it has the feel of very high quality. Notwithstanding that, my Technics is sounding superb and I'm still detecting some improvement in sound quality as it beds in. Great product!

Tell us what equipment you use and what you like listening to.

Marco
27-01-2010, 09:49
Hi Mike,

Welcome to AOS - great to have you on board :)

Marco.

chris@panteg
27-01-2010, 12:01
Hi Mike

Welcome to AOS ' your bearing upgrade has made a lot of music lover's very happy ' hats off to you sir .

I have Dave's bearing in my 1210 ' but i intend to upgrade to your bearing when the time is right .:)

REM
27-01-2010, 13:21
Greetings Mike, good to have you here. The bearing's a work of art, you can 'feel' the work that's gone into it and it sounds fantastic (or should that be it doesn't 'sound' at all?):)

Mike_New
28-01-2010, 04:29
REM
You have hit the nail on the head so to speak, so many folks on another adio site spend all their time defining how a bearing sounds.

My system:-- NAD M3 and SACD player driving KEF 203 reference speakers. The speakers are Bi wired via the outputs A & B on the M3 and the Velodyne 12" bass unit is driven independantly via the pre-amp output on the M3 (effectively bi-amping on the low frequency range) SL1200 with external PS and bearing, also 1.8Kg copper mat mechanically "connected" to platter with thick silicone grease. I have fitted an OL modified Rega 250 arm and rondo blue MC. I am about to get a SME V from Dave, as I now consider that the sonic quality of the TT justifies it.

Marco
28-01-2010, 06:25
Hi Mike,

Good news on the SME V. With your bearing fitted (and a high quality off-board PSU), I don't doubt that the SL-1200 now deserves an arm of that calibre :)

As more and more people have your superb bearing fitted to their SL-1200/1210s (and trust me that will be the case with the exposure it'll get here on AOS and elsewhere), I predict sales of more expensive tonearms to partner it (other than Jelcos, etc) will increase accordingly. Good news for Dave!

I believe that your bearing is a landmark product and will elevate the performance of the SL-1200 to unprecedented levels, making it one of the best turntables available at any price.

I'm off down to Dartmouth today to have my bearing fitted to my SL-1210, and a full review of its performance will follow!

Marco.

P.S Where are you from, Mike?

Beechwoods
28-01-2010, 06:32
Have a good day Marco.

Marco
28-01-2010, 06:37
Cheers, Nick - will do. Dave's always the most congenial of hosts. It's around a 650 mile round-trip, so you can't say I'm not keen! :eyebrows:

Marco.

Mike_New
28-01-2010, 07:01
Marco,
I am from the colonies!! Sydney, OZ, although I was born and went to school in Reading. I worked for Crosfield Electronics in North London back in the early 60s who sent me out here in 1961 as a computer field engineer, I liked it so much that when I finished travelling around the world, including two more trips to OZ, I got married and settled here. It was only after my wife died of the big C that my interest in Jazz and classical was re activated and I started to look at how my own SL1200 could be improved. The rest I guess is to the advantage of all of you who seem to agree that my efforts were worth while.

I do not make the very high precision spindles. These are made for me by a Tool and Gauge making company who are both ISO 9001/2004 certified and are also NATA certified test Lab for Aerospace and medical work.

Dave Cawley
28-01-2010, 07:46
Hi Marco

Hope you are reading this!

Local politics means I HAVE to be at a meeting at 6:00, no question. So could you come earlier, or you could come to the meeting, if you think thread drift is bad, you will be amazed, a pizza in the DA afterwards?

Regards

Dave

Marco
28-01-2010, 07:58
Lol - just about to leave, Dave. No worries - sounds good to me! :cool:

Laters,
Marco.

REM
28-01-2010, 11:11
Hi Marco

I'm sure every monotonous motorway mile will be rewarded with marvelously melodious music bach at Marco mansions....:)

Mike,

You're going to love the V, there seems (to me at least) to be a certain synergy between the Techie and SME arms, can't explain it there is a rightness to the sound, maybe it is in the decks' DNA, after all the original 70's decks were supplied with armboards precut for the 3009 were they not?

Cheers

chris@panteg
28-01-2010, 11:31
Hi Ralph

You really shouldn't say things like that ' you will have me lusting after a 309 ' i used to have the 10 inch version on my Voyd now gone :(

Both the techie and SME share the same elegant engineering principles ' have i said that right ' :scratch:.

MartinT
28-01-2010, 11:37
You're going to love the V, there seems (to me at least) to be a certain synergy between the Techie and SME arms

Ralph, I wish you wouldn't say that either as I seriously miss my SME IV which I stupidly sold with my Roksan Xerxes years ago. They also match AT cartridges rather well. I'm getting tempted and I may just contact Dave C about one soon.

chris@panteg
28-01-2010, 11:49
:wah::brickwall:

Right that's it ' not playing any more

Seriously Martin if you can do it ' why not treat yourself:)

And i may or may not be interested in your 250st:rolleyes:

MartinT
28-01-2010, 12:03
And i may or may not be interested in your 250st:rolleyes:

Damn - don't give me extra reasons, man!

Dave Cawley
28-01-2010, 12:04
I do goooood deals on SME!

DAve

chris@panteg
28-01-2010, 12:26
Martin i can see it now ' you ' glass of wine in hand ' your favorite record sat on the Techie ' and fitted to it a lovely spanking new series IV mmm ' suit you sir ' .;)

DSJR
28-01-2010, 12:42
Talk about badge snobbery.......:lol:

MartinT
28-01-2010, 13:24
Blimey, if lusting after the products of one of the best engineering companies in the world is badge snobbery, sign me up! :)

DSJR
28-01-2010, 16:47
It is at their prices :lol:

I was informed by Rega that the RB300 bearings were at least as good as the SME V's ball-races/shafts and someone else said that the pipes were sent out on piece-work polishing etc...

I honestly bet that the Jelco's are as good, apart from the fact that they use a detachable headshell.........

There again, I'm probably wrong - I did rather admire the 309 when it was £500 or so!

Dave Cawley
28-01-2010, 17:34
The SME bearings have a higher ABEC rating. There is a very nice fixed headshell Jelco!!

Marco has just left, we had a great time, the Mike New bearing producing shed loads of über low and steady bass from the Kraftwerk Live LP's.

Regards

Dave

MartinT
28-01-2010, 17:38
I honestly bet that the Jelco's are as good, apart from the fact that they use a detachable headshell.........

My Jelco doesn't have a detachable headshell. I'm relying on memory here, so perhaps Dave C could comment on how the SME IV sounds compared with the Jelco SA250ST? Since I used the SME on a different turntable I can't be sure how they would compare on the Technics.

I do have a Michell TecnoArm(A) and an Ultracraft AC300 lying around, but I don't think either will outperform the Jelco.

Ammonite Acoustics
28-01-2010, 17:54
Marco has just left, we had a great time, the Mike New bearing producing shed loads of über low and steady bass from the Kraftwerk Live LP's.

Regards

Dave

And mine is producing similarly über low and steady bass too! I'm actually rather surprised at the extra bass extension, but very pleased that it is so well-defined. The double bass player on 'Walk on the wild side' could be in the room with me, such is the natural reproduction of string and body resonances. Fantastic!

CD is definitely off the menu for a while.

YNWaN
28-01-2010, 20:30
Hi YNWaN,
I have only just joined this forum on the reccomendation of a happy bearing user, I did not know about it before!! So hello everyone and I am encouraged to read that you all seem to be experiencing the ideals that I set when I designed and machined up the first protoype.
I do however have one observation/comment regarding drag.
I did not specifically design any degree of drag into the bearing Per Se, rather it is a function of the extremely close fit between the spindle and the honed "oilite" bearing bush, less than 0.008 mm The oil used is very thin, but still the viscous friction in such a very small clearance causes the very smooth tight feel.

Hi Mike :).

I'm afraid the only experience I have of your bearing is holding one in my hand. However, I thought it was worth saying that I thought it was nicely done :). After all, it can seem as if the only people who praise a product own it or sell it (neither are entirely objective).

I did wonder if the drag was entirely caused by the close tolerance of the bearing - I have encountered such before. As you say, even low viscosity oils can provide surprisingly high levels of drag if the tolerances are close enough.

It is interesting that the bearing drag was not a specific intention as, whether by intention or not, I suspect that it does impact upon the efficacy of the design as a whole. Anyway, many thanks for the clarification - very interesting :)

DSJR
28-01-2010, 20:43
I was told some years ago by a friend in engineering that higher spec ABEC bearings were only a few quid difference - around a tenner at the time, probably fifteen quid now..

I loved using the 309 and series V though. The M-2 series are apparently very good too for most purposes. Remember, the series V has been out since the mid eighties at least and tooling costs should have been written off many years ago. What's left is pure profit I reckon..

Dave Cawley
28-01-2010, 22:22
higher spec ABEC bearings were only a few quid difference - around a tenner at the time

And when the trade price of a Rega arm is £65.00 ............

Dave

DSJR
28-01-2010, 22:28
Not that long ago Dave.

Gawd, I'm getting more like Richard Dunn every day (apart from unkind comments on one of his favourite cartridges).

I must have a brain malfunction to go with the 'lurgy.......

Marco
29-01-2010, 09:51
Hi Dave,


Marco has just left, we had a great time, the Mike New bearing producing shed loads of über low and steady bass from the Kraftwerk Live LP's.


Indeed it did! The new bearing obviously wasn't run it yet, but the 'before and after' listening test we carried out revealed a marked and significant improvement with it fitted, which I could easily detect even on an unfamiliar (and, notably worth mentioning, quite impressive) system... :)

I'll go into this in more detail later when I have a listen to the deck in my own system (prior to writing a full review of the effects of the bearing) and get a proper handle on what it's doing.

Thanks again mate for fitting the bearing and your meticulous attention to detail. It's always a pleasure coming down to visit (and eating your wife's wonderful cake!) Your new demo room looks very good indeed, especially with that spectacular view below from your window of Dartmouth bay :cool:

Marco.

P.S Hope the meeting went well last night! ;)

Dave Cawley
29-01-2010, 10:00
I kept my mouth shut last night! The beer and Pizza was good though...........

Dave

Ammonite Acoustics
01-02-2010, 08:51
C'mon Marco! You have been strangely silent!

MartinT
01-02-2010, 09:38
Now that my Mike New bearing has had a really good run-in (not to mention the Whest phono amp which is also quite new), I had an extended listening session last night. The whole LP playback experience has really taken a significant step forwards for me. Everything is more palpable with a highly 3D soundstage, more shape to instruments and very tight bass. I had worried about the AT33PTG slightly lacking in balls but that thought has gone completely. I'm thinking to leave well alone a turntable system that is displaying a very good level of synergy.

Marco
01-02-2010, 09:41
Hi Shuggs,

Lol - too busy listening to music, matey, it sounds that good! :lol:

The Mike New bearing is an absolute no-brainer; I'm just trying to work out which has the most fundamental and significant impact on the Techy - that or the Time Step PSU. It's a tough one!

Got a busy day today and tomorrow, so further thoughts will follow after that...

Marco.

Marco
01-02-2010, 10:08
Hi Martin,

I'm glad that the Mike New bearing is doing the biz! I'm pretty gob-smacked at the difference, TBH; I'm just in the process of getting my head around exactly what it's doing so I can put it into words properly for the review :)


I had worried about the AT33PTG slightly lacking in balls but that thought has gone completely

It'll be interesting finding out what your thoughts are regarding that issue when you hear the SA-750/DL-103SA combo on my T/T. I know from experience that (cartridge-wise) it's a quite a different presentation from the 33PTG.

Marco.

MartinT
01-02-2010, 10:17
It'll be interesting finding out what your thoughts are regarding that issue when you hear the SA-750/DL-103SA combo on my T/T. I know from experience that (cartridge-wise) it's a quite a different presentation from the 33PTG.

Yes, I'm really looking forward to that comparison.

chris@panteg
01-02-2010, 10:43
Hi Martin

I think that's very wise ' i feel a little guilty trying to encourage you to go for an SME ' it was irresponsible and somewhat shameless of me :eyebrows:.

I still have not ruled out a 309 :rolleyes:

How do you feel about the comparison with your digital front end now ' .

Dave told me that you get roughly 80% performance after about 20 hours use with the new bearing 'and 100% after about 100 hours or so .

I think that last 20% is the most satisfying improvement ' just my thoughts.

chris@panteg
01-02-2010, 11:00
The Mike New bearing is an absolute no-brainer; I'm just trying to work out which has the most fundamental and significant impact on the Techy - that or the Time Step PSU. It's a tough one!

Got a busy day today and tomorrow, so further thoughts will follow after that...

Marco.

Hi Marco

Well if i can bring the words of Ivor Tiefenbrun ' into this thread he always stated the bearing is of paramount importance ' my own view is it probably is more fundamental in improving the 1200 ' .

Look at any top end or even middle ground deck and take a peek at the bearing fitted .

MartinT
01-02-2010, 11:43
I think that's very wise ' i feel a little guilty trying to encourage you to go for an SME ' it was irresponsible and somewhat shameless of me

No worries, Chris. I do still lust after an SME IV but then I used to have one and I know what utterly fantastic pieces of engineering they are. In all honesty, I can't fault the Jelco and while I retain the AT it's a perfect match. Should I go for another cartridge in the future, though, it'll be no holds barred.

The arm I really *really* lust after is the Triplanar.

Marco
01-02-2010, 11:49
Hi Chris,

It was very nice chatting to you yesterday - got your PM, btw :)

Yes, I'm coming round to that way of thinking, although the effect of the Time Step PSU is equally fundamental, but simply in a different way. I'm not sure that fitting a Mike New bearing without the Time Step PSU already in place would be the best way of going about things.

Experience tells me that the general poor quality of the stock PSU, situated underneath the platter, causing low-level hum and generating a sonically detrimental magnetic field in the process, deteriorates the sound far more than the mechanical inadequacies of the stock Technics bearing...

However, THE most significant factor beyond a shadow of doubt, which succeeds in completely transforming the performance of the SL-1200/1210, is that the combination of BOTH bearing and PSU upgrades lowers the noise floor and distortion/coloration so dramatically, thus allowing one massively greater insight into recordings of music, that it renders the rather bland and musically uninspiring sound of a stock SL-1210/1210 as completely unrecognisable and, in conjunction with a top quality arm and cartridge, catapults it head-first into the veritable 'superleague' of high-end turntables. I have no doubts whatsoever about that.

Having listened intently to the effect of the Mike New bearing with music over the last few days, I have little doubt that my Sound Hi-fi modified SL-1210 is now every bit as good as the venerable and highly acclaimed SP10 - certainly those I've heard so far - and if there are others out there which are better and would outperform my modified SL-1210, then the forthcoming platter upgrade should all but close the gap.

Ok, folks, that's it for now until I write the full review in Strokes of Genius. Look out for it later in the week, as I'm sure that some of you will find it interesting reading! :cool:

Marco.

chris@panteg
01-02-2010, 12:23
Hi Chris,



Experience tells me that the general poor quality of the stock PSU, situated underneath the platter, causing low-level hum and generating a sonically detrimental magnetic field in the process, deteriorates the sound far more than the mechanical inadequacies of the stock Technics bearing...



Marco.

Hi Marco

Yes that puts in a nutshell and perhaps any future buyer's would be better advised to get both the psu and bearing upgrade ' and there is the option of Dave's cheaper but still very effective timestep bearing .

Marco
01-02-2010, 12:46
Yes that puts in a nutshell and perhaps any future buyer's would be better advised to get both the psu and bearing upgrade...


Yes my advice, if you're serious about hearing what this turntable is truly capable of, would be to do both in the one hit - not cheap, but then it depends if you're after having merely a good T/T to play your records on, or a truly exceptional one......

The latter, unfortunately, rarely comes cheap!

Marco.

REM
01-02-2010, 13:26
It may not be a cheap T/T anymore but it still represents outstanding VFM. Even with the psu, bearing, arm, feet, mat, (am I missing anything?), the Techie still costs less than the Keel 'upgrade' alone for the LP12.:)

Marco
01-02-2010, 13:43
Precisely. Kind of puts it all into perspective, doesn't it?

Forget about the LP12, I'd rather use the Techy, the way it is now, than any 'high-end' turntable I could afford at £10k and beyond! I'd love to put it up against an SME20, Brinkmann La Grange, or one of the top Avids or Kuzmas, for example, using the same arm and cartridge in the same system, just to see what happens ;)

Marco.

dmckean
01-02-2010, 18:42
Shoot, I'm going to have to sell this spare set a speakers to finance all this.

Tarzan
01-02-2010, 20:17
"Rather bland and musically uninspiring" is one of the last things l would call stock Techie to be perfectly honest- against all the upgrades maybe:sofa:

Marco
01-02-2010, 20:29
Hi Andy,

Well we'll have to agree to differ, matey. I personally couldn't live with the stock one :)

Marco.

Tarzan
01-02-2010, 20:33
Marco, l am so happy with mine, but we will have to agree to disagree, but the upgrades do look tempting:).

Marco
01-02-2010, 20:39
Happiness and satisfaction is what it's all about, Andy. The good thing is, if you love your Techy now, you've got a mind-blowing whole load of fun still to come!! :eyebrows: :)

Marco.

Tarzan
01-02-2010, 21:27
Yeah, looking forward to the journey, as l posted in another thread, l am shocked you can get this kind of performance for so little and all the features is just the icing on abig fat VFM cake, l think l may have hit on some synergy with the Stanton 681 EEE/SL1200/ Cambridge 640P, this makes my music sound addictive and is much greater than the relatively modest costing sum of the parts:).

Alex_UK
01-02-2010, 21:52
a big fat VFM cake

Love that expression - should be in the Ethos!

DSJR
01-02-2010, 22:13
Isn't it wonderful when you "cobble together" a collection of not too expensive audio gear and it delivers so much pleasure?

I was sent an email describing a chap's visit to a top end dealer - the sound wasn't good (Jazz at the Pawnshop didn't have the Pawnshop venue...;)) and when he told the sales guy the latter agreed, saying the amp only had 50 hours on it and the setup needed the £2000 Transparent Audio mains lead to make everything work... My entire vintage system is worth half that I reckon and I DEFINITELY have Jazz played at the Pawnshop :lol:

Marco
02-02-2010, 05:20
I was sent an email describing a chap's visit to a top end dealer - the sound wasn't good (Jazz at the Pawnshop didn't have the Pawnshop venue...) and when he told the sales guy the latter agreed, saying the amp only had 50 hours on it and the setup needed the £2000 Transparent Audio mains lead to make everything work...


Hahaha, what an arse! As for Transparent mains leads, I might be getting rid of mine and swapping them for some Mark Grants. Watch this space! ;)

Marco.

DSJR
02-02-2010, 08:18
Ho Ho.....:lol:

MartinT
02-02-2010, 09:10
Jeez, if a system *needs* a special mains lead to make it work, something is very wrong. All cables are just the final topping, not a fix.

chris@panteg
02-02-2010, 10:56
£2,000 for a mains lead :scratch: think about that for a minute ' how much is an SME V ? £2,400 or for 2k you can buy a properly sorted NAS or 1200 with a good arm and cart .

Kris
02-02-2010, 16:23
£2,000 for a mains lead :scratch:

There's a sucker born every minute . . .

If I had the cash to burn on a £2K mains lead, I'd give the money to charity . . .

markf
02-02-2010, 16:47
Yes, it's definitely a bad day when your power cord costs more than your turntable,
Marco won't have that problem anymore when he swaps over to the Mark Grant cable.

DSJR
02-02-2010, 17:34
To be fair, I know the dealer and the mains there is absolutely of the worst quality I think I've ever experienced. When I was there we used Russ Andrews Kimber mains blocks and the difference wasn't subtle. then Russ took all his sales in-house and made twice the profit for the same selling price...

Of course, the equipment shouldn't be sensitive to cr@p mains in the first place, should it???? :lol:

MartinT
02-02-2010, 18:31
You'd be *far* better off spending £1800 on a PS Audio Powerplant Premier and £200 on a mains cable, trust me on this. Its effect isn't at all subtle as it isolates equipment completely from the quality of the mains.

swampy
02-02-2010, 20:11
Or what about audio mains cables from these guys, only £8 for 0.5m for the cheapest one they make although they make some other better ones for about £30. I've made my own cables in the past, both rca and mains. This one is not much more than cost of making your own mains lead.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220329304752&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

A nicely made lead for £30
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220338201832&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

I've made my own RCA leads from gold wire in the past bought off Scientific wire co for the tiny sum of £10 at the time !! Add some cotton or teflon tubing and nice locking RCA plugs and you can have a super lead with low L and C for around £30.

Only thing maybe a bit cheap about these budget leads is the screen being galvanised steel rather than thinned copper which is more flexible.

MartinT
02-02-2010, 20:20
Gold is not a good conductor; silver is far better. I don't know about the e-Bay cables, personally I'll only recommend what I've heard and for me Kimber is the best. Not cheap, but not £2000 either.

Alex_UK
02-02-2010, 20:30
I use a Silver & Gold (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SILVER-GOLD-Audiophile-Mains-Power-cable-1-metre_W0QQitemZ310102048273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item483385be11#h t_1666wt_939) from Audio Friendly on my Creek amp, and all sounds fine to me, though I think I got lambasted for it here because the woven cable is crap? Can't remember exactly...

DSJR
02-02-2010, 20:39
Oh for goodness sake Alex, get some Mark Grants. I'm sure you can afford them and you know it makes sense ;)

swampy
02-02-2010, 20:40
Yes I know gold is worse than copper, it was an experiment at the time. I made my next leads out of gold plated silver, pure silver and the last out of copper, all solid core with a single core return wire and no screen. Thats the great thing about a bit of diy, you can try different things at low cost. They all sound different and the lower resistivity of gold is less of an effect when compared to L and C in a cable, as a result of the construction, usually the screen. Low C seems to make the biggest improvement which is why Nordorst make cables like the Red Dawn. However a screen become important on longer runs and from the pre to power amp.

David

swampy
02-02-2010, 20:52
I use a Silver & Gold (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SILVER-GOLD-Audiophile-Mains-Power-cable-1-metre_W0QQitemZ310102048273QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_C omputing_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item483385be11#h t_1666wt_939) from Audio Friendly on my Creek amp, and all sounds fine to me, though I think I got lambasted for it here because the woven cable is crap? Can't remember exactly...

Are the main 3 conductors woven / braided ? They do not mention that in the ad. They look OK to me. A friend of mine used to manage the test dept at RADex in skem Lancs before they shut down and transferred production to Europe. I got a bit of inside knowledge on the audio cables they supplied to certain audio manufacturers. Most were not custom orders and designs (that costs too much I guess) but standard off the shelf products that can be quickly made without re-design, re-tooling and complex testing. They just added the appropriate name on the sheath in the batch run then batch test.

So I don't doubt some of these leads like the Belden mains cable is used in many other makes.

Alex_UK
02-02-2010, 20:56
Oh for goodness sake Alex, get some Mark Grants. I'm sure you can afford them and you know it makes sense ;)

It's on the cards Dave! I'm a sucker for a nice cable, but £2,000? We've been here before, Kris sums up my opinion on the matter!

DSJR
02-02-2010, 21:10
The dealer margins on cables are incredibly high and the £2000 mains cable I referred to is imported by Ab Sounds - say no more....

Back to the bearing PLEASE?????

theophile
16-10-2010, 11:05
Marco,
What we are seeing now'a'days,is a rediscovery of lessons which were learned in Japan 20 years ago,but which withered on the vine due to the combination of a marketing force in the West which was biased against direct drive,and the CD revolution.

I present the Yamaha GT 2000x as proof:

Yamaha had already had phenomenal success with the GT 2000.It sold very well in Japan(and the Far East).A few years later they devised to update the turntable(in conjunction with the manufacturers and co-designers Micro Seiki).The only substantial changes to the turntable itself(forget the arm for the moment)with the introduction of the 2000x was the bearing which was uprated(all I can say is that the size and diameter were larger)and the plinth was made slightly more substantial.

What speaks volumes about the GT 2000x as compared to the 2000 is that the 2000x sells in Japan today for 3 times what the GT 2000 does on the second hand market.Whatever the bearing-mod brought to the party,people are(and have been for years now)voting with their wallets to have a piece of it.

It's kind of a shame that the Direct Drive Drive sputtered and fizzled-out around that time.I'd imagine that a lot of good developments were probably blueprinted and prototyped,only to be scrapped or shelved when the maintenance of an unprofitable figurehead product was seen to be untenable.

The bright light is the small vanguard of experienced listeners with decades of exposure to a vast array of different systems and components who are prepared to say:

"Yes.These turntables sound good with no concessions needing to be made to other turntable types.They can be competitive in and above their price range."

Along with the greater acceptance of quality Direct Drive as cutting edge comes the market impetus that rewards innovators with sales because the critical mass of sales numbers can allow these enterprises to be sustained and further development can unfold.That's good for all of us.It'll be interesting to see just how good Direct Drive can get,in the next few years.

DSJR
16-10-2010, 12:07
May I add that buying in direct drive motors complete with dedicated electronics on an oem basis isn't as fulfilling as buying a motor, making a case and suitable power supply, all of which can be over-charged to the consumer for, then using string or whatever to drive the platter. rather than "just" being a Matsushita sourced clone, the more profitable way of doing it puts even more individuality on things. having said that, Neil's enlightening show review seems to be full of "me too" turntable clones, so I suppose there isn't much left that could be truly inovative, except people like Arthur K and his Funky new arm-tube/wand.

YNWaN
16-10-2010, 12:12
Hmmm.............................................. ........................

DSJR
16-10-2010, 12:14
Oh alright mark, you win :lol:

By the way, how's the Rubykon doing? I'm regressing back to childhood autochangers right now so haven't been keeping up with developments ;)

theophile
16-10-2010, 12:34
May I add that buying in direct drive motors complete with dedicated electronics on an oem basis isn't as fulfilling as buying a motor, making a case and suitable power supply, all of which can be over-charged to the consumer for, then using string or whatever to drive the platter. rather than "just" being a Matsushita sourced clone, the more profitable way of doing it puts even more individuality on things. having said that, Neil's enlightening show review seems to be full of "me too" turntable clones, so I suppose there isn't much left that could be truly inovative, except people like Arthur K and his Funky new arm-tube/wand.

I remember a 'scientist'(remember Marco we spoke about this cult)who came out a few decades back and announced that Science(notice the Big S) had pretty much discovered 99% of all that there would ever be possible to discover. :doh:

I'm sure that he thought that there wouldn't be much innovation either. ;)

YNWaN
16-10-2010, 12:53
Quite a lot to tell - but I'm not sure how much I should say on a public forum (probably not much is the best policy). First deliveries are in a few weeks and most seem to have found homes (which is nice).

chris@panteg
16-10-2010, 20:07
Whaetever happens with DD and the possible or potential of decks like the 1200 ' or even belt drive decks, LP12 ' Roksan ' WTA , its small fry and in the great scheme of things only of interest to a dwindling minority of die hards like us on here (alas) .

Hope that doesn't seem to harsh ' well it is i suppose ' but it seems to me the future is all Digital , but i for one will keep playing Vinyl to the bitter end:).

I hope Mike is doing well with his bearing and platter , Dave can't be far off with his either.

YNWaN
16-10-2010, 21:43
People were saying the future is digital 20 years ago, but today analogue is as strong as ever.

chris@panteg
17-10-2010, 00:35
Hi Mark

Yes analog is still strong ' but where i live here in Banbury i don't know anyone else that buy's new vinyl ' John ' a good friend still buy's 2nd hand vinyl .

But Mark you must agree we are in a minority !

YNWaN
17-10-2010, 06:47
Yes, I accept that I/we are in the minority, but it has been thus for many years. On the other hand, I do know friends who still buy vinyl. I recently bought The XX's album on vinyl and also the new Antony and the Johnson's album; Andrew bought a new Porcupine Tree album and another friend bought the new Belle & Sebastian album (which I will probably also buy) - it's not hard to buy new releases on vinyl these days (much easier than it was a few years ago).

Dave Cawley
17-10-2010, 07:25
Hi Dave

as buying a motor, making a case and suitable power supply

But where would you buy the motor?? That is the big question!

Regards

Dave

YNWaN
17-10-2010, 07:38
You can't - not a suitable one anyway (which is why both the companies to produce new direct drive decks in the last few years had to build their own).

I'm sure you knew that though.

DSJR
17-10-2010, 09:37
People were saying the future is digital 20 years ago, but today analogue is as strong as ever.

Not really mark, not outside our clique anyway.

MartinT
17-10-2010, 09:46
Since the Technics is still in production, is it not possible to buy the motor from Panasonic on an OEM basis?

Dave Cawley
17-10-2010, 09:49
Since the Technics is still in production, is it not possible to buy the motor from Panasonic on an OEM basis?

Tried that, no joy!

Dave

YNWaN
21-10-2010, 12:48
Not really mark, not outside our clique anyway.

Dave, please don't try to bring reality into my world :) (I do think analogue is stronger now than it was 10 years ago though - at least, I don't seem to have any difficulty buying the new releases I want.

colinB
21-10-2010, 18:10
Im always surprised how many yoof are digging in the crates beside me when im in a record shop, including young ladies:eyebrows:
I catch them looking at me wondering what Grandads buying.

Beechwoods
21-10-2010, 18:22
Which record shops do you go to? I never find I'm rummaging through crates next to a lady. I must be going to the wrong places.

Barry
21-10-2010, 19:28
]
Which record shops do you go to? I never find I'm rummaging through crates next to a lady. I must be going to the wrong places.

+1 :(

Marco
21-10-2010, 19:56
Yesh, but you need to go the 'special' record shops, where the lighting is dim, there's a faint whiff of patchouli oil in the air, and the bearded clientele are sporting cheeky wee grins along with their sling-backs and Kaneesha tops...... :eyebrows:

Marco.

John
21-10-2010, 20:28
U took me to all the wrong places when I visited ;)

colinB
21-10-2010, 22:25
Yesh, but you need to go the 'special' record shops, where the lighting is dim, there's a faint whiff of patchouli oil in the air, and the bearded clientele are sporting cheeky wee grins along with their sling-backs and Kaneesha tops...... :eyebrows:

Marco.

Yep! Thats the ones. The only benefit i can think of these days of living in London.

JazzBones
30-10-2010, 14:53
:scratch: MN bearings (I have one :) ) have been appearing on eBay at knock down prices with a donation to charity (?), guessing you have seen this?
Well on another forum one of my earlier posts was why a bearing, worthy of a £12,00.00 turntable has been withdrawn. I got an answer of sorts. Later on another post of mine (mysteriously airbrushed out) stated that I was undecided but would be sticking with the MN bearing as there are satisfied customers world wide that like it. I suggested that as the bearing was sealed (faulty???) it could be taken apart for inspection for any faults, if any, and the results made known to at least inform us of the probs? Furthermore a section cut out of the bearing housing could be shown? The old delete button must have been pushed on my questioning without reason given to me. I was very, very careful not to infringe forum rules and I do think that points raised were well within the bounds of reason? Needless to say, as someone who bought an MN bearing, I was right piddled orf so I'm persuing my questioning over here, if thats okay? I am well aware, now, that the two gentlemen involved with the bearing would not pull the other out of shark infested waters to safety but, please, don't have the shark bight the customer.

I also questioned the use of PTFE as a thrust pad for a bearing based on John Ruggles, Audio Innovations, observation whilst involved in precision engineering... guess what, nada?

My intention is not to be provocative but to be reliably informed and educated on the matter. Another requirement is best bang for the buck?

Finally, I hope I've stuck this winge in the right forum place?

Lets be hearing from you, satisfyed and dissatisfyed with the bearing in question?

Jazz

John
30-10-2010, 16:33
This has been discussed in some length on this thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8099

MartinT
30-10-2010, 16:37
Hi Jazz

I presume you're talking about the Timestep forum? You're not alone, I had my perfectly legitimate postings removed and a threatening pm sent to me asking me to 'play nice'. Presumably playing nice involves not asking any controversial questions at all. On that basis, I'm already out of there as I don't believe in censorship of that kind.

I can only speak for my MN bearing and not those posted on eBay, but based on mine alone there is nothing wrong with them. It is very well constructed and has given me excellent service to date, with a large step-up in performance over the Technics original. I'm also using the MN platter and base plate so I'm high on the curve of Techie upgrades and I've had a very good experience so far. Having spoken with Mike on several occasions he is a gentleman and clearly a very skilled engineer which shows in his products.

On the balancing side I feel honour-bound to say that Dave C has sold me various upgrades in the past including a special arm board for my Dynavector and each time I received good service from him. A shame, then, that he has treated anyone participating in this forum as suspect. His loss.

There is a vast repository of knowledge here at AoS so ask away and we'll try to answer your questions.

DSJR
30-10-2010, 17:06
I'm sure a PTFE thrust pad is fine with the standard-weight platter, offering low friction and low noise, but the heavy platter obviously needs something more substantial..

Jazzbones (Ron), do I know you??????? ;)

snapper
30-10-2010, 19:47
Hi Ron

Unfortunately,some dealers and manufacturers have set up forums with the sole intention of fleecing you for as much money as possible,instead of giving impartial advice.

I'm sure if there was a problem with your bearing,Mike New would resolve this problem as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Have a read through Martins post and also the thread highlighted by John.

JazzBones
30-10-2010, 22:07
Hi Jazz

I presume you're talking about the Timestep forum? You're not alone, I had my perfectly legitimate postings removed and a threatening pm sent to me asking me to 'play nice'. Presumably playing nice involves not asking any controversial questions at all. On that basis, I'm already out of there as I don't believe in censorship of that kind.

I can only speak for my MN bearing and not those posted on eBay, but based on mine alone there is nothing wrong with them. It is very well constructed and has given me excellent service to date, with a large step-up in performance over the Technics original. I'm also using the MN platter and base plate so I'm high on the curve of Techie upgrades and I've had a very good experience so far. Having spoken with Mike on several occasions he is a gentleman and clearly a very skilled engineer which shows in his products.

On the balancing side I feel honour-bound to say that Dave C has sold me various upgrades in the past including a special arm board for my Dynavector and each time I received good service from him. A shame, then, that he has treated anyone participating in this forum as suspect. His loss.

There is a vast repository of knowledge here at AoS so ask away and we'll try to answer your questions.

Hi again Martin, yup it was Timestep. Noticed the daily posts have gone down? By the way I put my post in the wrong place on AoS, the one you replied to here, it was afterwards that I read the main threads on the MN bearing. I'm still finding my way around here.

Due to time commitments I have not installed my MN bearing yet but will do so confident that its a keeper... why go down the ladder of improvements?

Thanks for the re-assurance
Jazz:)

JazzBones
30-10-2010, 22:23
I'm sure a PTFE thrust pad is fine with the standard-weight platter, offering low friction and low noise, but the heavy platter obviously needs something more substantial..

Jazzbones (Ron), do I know you??????? ;)

Course you do...Saturdays at Studio **, Harpenden, general dogs body and large speaker lumper, plus sharer of excruitating high pitched vocals from the manager's party tapes, hot chilli pizzas and the aroma of garlic and morning josh sticks, etc!:stalks:

Regards DaveO,

Jazz(Ron)

Mike_New
31-10-2010, 01:41
Attention
To those folks who have purchased my Bearing on Ebay, You should email me for a copy of the "Installation Instructions". This is important as there are certain precautions to be taken when fitting it to your SL1200. I would include a copy here, but it is probably not appropriate.

DSJR
31-10-2010, 10:34
Course you do...Saturdays at Studio **, Harpenden, general dogs body and large speaker lumper, plus sharer of excruitating high pitched vocals from the manager's party tapes, hot chilli pizzas and the aroma of garlic and morning josh sticks, etc!:stalks:

Regards DaveO,

Jazz(Ron)

Ello mate, "I rember you-oooooooo" (still in touch with his son...)

So, the LP12's finally bitten the dust eh? I do remember your setup was the first I ever heard SBL's sound civilised, confirmed on later experiences in Northampton.. Gawd, that was over twenty years ago now - like yesterday although so much has happened in the meantime. Love to Bren...

Back to subject - reminiscing over for now ;)

Marco
31-10-2010, 11:27
Hi Ron,


MN bearings (I have one ) have been appearing on eBay at knock down prices with a donation to charity (?), guessing you have seen this?


Yes, it's Dodgy Dave Cawley's pathetic attempt to discredit the design of Mike New's perfectly good (in fact excellent) T/T bearing, simply because when Cawley tried to rip-off the design himself by having it copied in the UK (behind Mike's back) when they were both supposedly still business partners, he found he couldn't get them made cheaply enough here to make his usual exorbitant profit margin, and so then threw his toys out of the pram and decided that if he couldn't sell any, he'd rubbish the perfectly good ones Mike New has made instead... :rolleyes:

Of course, shyster Dave's dodgy dealings have been exposed on AoS, and now folk won't touch him with a bargepole - witness how his Timestep forum is as dead as a Dodo. And it'll soon be the same for sales of all his Technics related modifications, and goodness knows what else, as people lose faith in both him and his company... Well, how could one ever trust someone who behaves in such a snide and dishonest manner??


Well on another forum one of my earlier posts was why a bearing, worthy of a £12,00.00 turntable has been withdrawn. I got an answer of sorts.


Yes, no doubt his usual lies designed simply to line his pockets at the expense of what's actually best for his customers. Let me make this absolutely clear: there is bugger all wrong with Mike New's bearings. I wouldn't use one myself otherwise. It's that simple!


Later on another post of mine (mysteriously airbrushed out) stated that I was undecided but would be sticking with the MN bearing as there are satisfied customers world wide that like it. I suggested that as the bearing was sealed (faulty???) it could be taken apart for inspection for any faults, if any, and the results made known to at least inform us of the probs? Furthermore a section cut out of the bearing housing could be shown? The old delete button must have been pushed on my questioning without reason given to me.


You have to remember that Cawley's 'forum' exists purely to feed his (fragile) ego and showcase the products he sells.

It's also there to hoodwink people into believing that 'cuddly old Dave', as he likes to portray himself, is some sort of 'guru' in relation to Technics T/Ts, when the reality is that he's simply a charlatan out to profit as much as possible from those who consider him as this 'guru', and then buy his products on the basis that he's in possession of specialist knowledge, unique to him.

This is utter nonsense, as there is no 'black art' to modifying and upgrading Technics SL-1200s and 1210s. One simply needs a thorough understanding of electronics design and basic engineering principles - and most importantly, a good pair of ears.

Any information posted on his 'forum' which isn't conducive to perpetrating the image that Cawley is seeking to create is thus quickly removed. Therefore such censorship is to be expected, if indeed not tolerated. Quite frankly, unless you're one of his brainwashed disciples, there is little point in being there.


I was very, very careful not to infringe forum rules and I do think that points raised were well within the bounds of reason? Needless to say, as someone who bought an MN bearing, I was right piddled orf so I'm persuing my questioning over here, if thats okay?


Of course it is. AoS is the place where Technics T/T enthusiasts can obtain accurate and unbiased information from knowledgeable and professional people, and where there is no blind loyalty to any specific manufacturer's products. All that matters (the ultimate best audio performance aside) is that those who design the products we promote are honest and professional people who are in business for the right reasons.

AoS will always support the good guys in the industry and champion their products accordingly, and cruelly expose the conmen and rip-off merchants, as they give hi-end audio a bad name. Whilst supporting the trade, first and foremost however we will always look after the interests of enthusiasts - and these principles will forever remain at the very core of our ethos.

I hope you enjoy your stay here :)

Marco.

Marco
31-10-2010, 11:34
Hi Martin,


I presume you're talking about the Timestep forum? You're not alone, I had my perfectly legitimate postings removed and a threatening pm sent to me asking me to 'play nice'. Presumably playing nice involves not asking any controversial questions at all. On that basis, I'm already out of there as I don't believe in censorship of that kind.


Really?? What cheek! My God, he's stooping to an all-time low (no doubt now trying to save face where he can). I'd advise others to get out while the contents of their wallet are still intact, and not to sell their Mike New bearings, as quite simply, the Timestep effort is grossly inferior.

Marco.

prestonchipfryer
31-10-2010, 12:17
I also don't like censorship, I'll say what I bloody well like :eek: I am keeping my Mike New bearing. :lol: :ner:

JazzBones
31-10-2010, 17:13
I also don't like censorship, I'll say what I bloody well like :eek: I am keeping my Mike New bearing. :lol: :ner:

So am I Johno, good on ya, I think you've come over like me? As an old well known Aussie saying goes, and we have alot, 'someone's spitting the dummy mate!' Its not hard to see who it is in this instance?

Being a wet halloween night with rain and boredom taking over fast, quite by accident (had my children like that by the way:lol:) I tapped into Vinyl Engine which looks like a Yank thing (don't shoot I'm not a friend...geddit :eyebrows:), and the topic of MN bearings on eBay was a hot item of debate, interesting as most of our American kith haven't a clue as to who MN :) or DC:( are but they were a rooty tooting for the small guy, yeah!

If I was a business analyst, I would say that someone has made a very pronounced and public error of judgement and if I was chairman of the company.......!

Say no more!

Jazz

Marco
31-10-2010, 18:02
Indeed - like I said on another thread, Ron, someone's shot himself in the foot, but with a blunderbuss rather than merely a shotgun!

Don't worry, the chickens will come home to roost, and sooner rather than later - of that there is no doubt ;)

Marco.

DSJR
31-10-2010, 18:35
I sincerely hope they don't sh*t all over you though Marco, there's some strong words up there matey ;)

Hypnotoad
31-10-2010, 18:46
Talking about VinylEngine, this is what Dave Cawley posted a year ago:

"Posted: 06 Nov 2009 10:28

I agree! In fact there will be three bearings for the SL-1200, and in completely different price brackets.

What I would ask, is that manufactures and their friends do not attempt to discredit other manufactures? There is room for everyone.

Regards

Dave"

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22805&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

Marco
31-10-2010, 18:52
I sincerely hope they don't sh*t all over you though Marco, there's some strong words up there matey

Indeed, Dave, and none I couldn't prove in a court of law or wouldn't say to the man's face, hence why they're there! And he knows that, too ;)

I think it's very important that the facts of this situation are brought to everyone's attention in order that people can make up their minds for themselves, without the spin and bias Dodgy Dave's putting on things elsewhere.

AoS will always do what it can to help clean up what is in many ways a rather corrupt industry, riddled with unhelpful politics.

Marco.

Marco
31-10-2010, 18:54
Hi Phillip,


Talking about VinylEngine, this is what Dave Cawley posted a year ago:

"Posted: 06 Nov 2009 10:28

I agree! In fact there will be three bearings for the SL-1200, and in completely different price brackets.

What I would ask, is that manufactures and their friends do not attempt to discredit other manufactures? There is room for everyone.

Regards

Dave"

http://www.vinylengine.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=22805&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75

Lol - yet more unbeliveable irony...... And so the comedy continues! :eyebrows:

Marco.

colinB
31-10-2010, 19:13
At Heathrow last year, i was buying some bits at the Sound hifi stand and Dave plonked a Mike New bearing in my hand and without a word just let me look at the thing and marvel at its beauty. It was obvious he was proud to be selling it and i was touched that the man was humbly promoting it over his own bearing which had seemed to be a year long labor of love itself.
Thats why im baffled as to the turn about, and sad its all come to this.

prestonchipfryer
31-10-2010, 19:16
So am I Johno, good on ya, I think you've come over like me? As an old well known Aussie saying goes, and we have alot, 'someone's spitting the dummy mate!' Its not hard to see who it is in this instance?

Being a wet halloween night with rain and boredom taking over fast, quite by accident (had my children like that by the way:lol:) I tapped into Vinyl Engine which looks like a Yank thing (don't shoot I'm not a friend...geddit :eyebrows:), and the topic of MN bearings on eBay was a hot item of debate, interesting as most of our American kith haven't a clue as to who MN :) or DC:( are but they were a rooty tooting for the small guy, yeah!

If I was a business analyst, I would say that someone has made a very pronounced and public error of judgement and if I was chairman of the company.......!

Say no more!

Jazz

Hi Jazzbones, good to hear from you. I have given the issue of the MN bearing/platter a lot of thought and am going to go with these fine products. I may also obtain a Paul Hynes psu. Which should be first, platter or psu?

John

leo
31-10-2010, 19:21
It used to p**s me off big time seeing his posts having a pop at other manufacturers, most certainly did not deserve it either :scratch: Any trade member will always be bit on the arse sooner later ;)

Marco
31-10-2010, 19:35
At Heathrow last year, i was buying some bits at the Sound hifi stand and Dave plonked a Mike New bearing in my hand and without a word just let me look at the thing and marvel at its beauty. It was obvious he was proud to be selling it and i was touched that the man was humbly promoting it over his own bearing which had seemed to be a year long labor of love itself.
Thats why im baffled as to the turn about, and sad its all come to this.

Indeed, Colin, and that's a nice story.

However I think what I wrote earlier provides a valid explanation for the bit in bold:


Yes, it's Dodgy Dave Cawley's pathetic attempt to discredit the design of Mike New's perfectly good (in fact excellent) T/T bearing, simply because when Cawley tried to rip-off the design himself by having it copied in the UK (behind Mike's back) when they were both supposedly still business partners, he found he couldn't get them made cheaply enough here to make his usual exorbitant profit margin, and so then threw his toys out of the pram and decided that if he couldn't sell any, he'd rubbish the perfectly good ones Mike New has made instead.


Quite simply, it was the old 'greed for gold'.......... :(

Marco.

MartinT
31-10-2010, 19:55
Which should be first, platter or psu?

PSU, on the basis that it gets all the basics right. You can ameliorate the platter to a large degree with a Herbies mat.

MartinT
31-10-2010, 20:12
vaio - either you're a troll or you've never listened to good LP replay. We can all spout statistics but if you knew anything about hi-fi it's that stats tell little of the story.

MartinT
31-10-2010, 20:15
Huh! Where did he go?

Marco
31-10-2010, 20:19
His or her post has been temporarily removed, Martin, until he or she complies with the request I made the last time he or she made an appearance, which was to introduce himself or herself properly in the Welcome area.

If 'vaio' can prove he or she is not a troll, then I will restore his or her post and expose it to the scrutiny it deserves ;)

Marco.

Marco
31-10-2010, 23:49
Guys,

Just thought I should post these details Mike has supplied, which I obtained from the thread on Vinyl Engine, as people here can use it for reference purposes:


For the Technics SL1200:-- a Completely New Designed Rigid Close Tolerance Bearing...

Design Philosphy:-----

This completely new design of bearing for the SL1200 arose from an evaluation of the shortcomings of the present bearing, and the realization that to extract 100% of the potential sonic quality from the excellent SL1200 Direct Drive Motor then a completely new design of bearing was justified.

This new design based on the considered application of engineering physics, optimizes the allowable design envelope by the use of Computer Aided Design (CAD) and represents the ultimate possible Bearing that can be designed and manufactured to fit within the constraints of the existing SL1200 motor/platter design. This new Bearing has been manufactured to the highest quality possible and I therefore cannot apologize for the price.

It is very interesting to observe how many highly perceptive audio devotees who understand what this bearing will do to their listening pleasure have already ordered one. These are people who seem to have a technical understanding of the merits of the design and who do not demand to have proof of “listening to it”!!! The fact is you are paying for a bearing that you “cannot hear” and consequently what you do hear ‘is all of the recorded music’ faithfully reproduced.

a) The Bearing Housing is machined from a solid billet of machining quality brass bar 65mm dia. by 45mm long.

b) The three locating posts on the Bearing Housing have been made as large as practical (allowing for the manufacturing tolerances of the SL1200) so as to provide the largest possible mechanical contact between the housing and the main chassis and also for maximum accuracy of concentricity with the Magnet Rotor and Motor coil assembly to which it attaches.

c) The centre column of the Bearing, which fits into the centre of the printed circuit/motor coil assembly, has been made as large as possible for maximum rigidity.

d) The bearing bush is made of close sintered bronze impregnated with oil and honed to fit each spindle as a set, to a nominal clearance accuracy of 0.008mm (less than 1/2 of a thousandth of an Inch) There is a procedure to honing sintered bearings A course stone is used on the hone in order to keep the pores of the sintered bearing as open to oil as possible.

e) The main shaft/Spindle is 12.8mm in diameter by 39mm long. The 12.8mm diameter was chosen so as to allow for any under tolerances in the nominal 12.7mm (1/2”) bushes.

f) The main shaft, record spindle and the locating taper are made from a single piece of M200 Cr-Mo tool steel hardened and gas Nitrided.

g) The shaft and Taper are precision ground in a NC grinder to an accuracy of 0.002 TIR. The polished surface finish on Diameter is 0.4 Microns.

h) The vertical load of the Platter and associated copper mat (if fitted) is supported by a 8mm dia. Silicon Nitride Ball. This Ball floats in a 6mm deep cavity cylindrical cavity in the end of the shaft. This cavity allows the Ball to locate within the Honed Bearing for absolute maximum rigidity, removing any possible resonance problems. This design also allows for the maximum length of bearing.

i) The Silicon Nitride Ball rests on a 3mm thick solid carbide pad. These components are housed in a large sealed oil well in the bottom of the bearing housing.

j) The record locating Spindle has been made 3mm longer to cater for those people who wish to use the increasingly accepted copper mats with 200Gm vinyl and center clamps.

k) These Bearings are totally made in Australia by myself with the main spindle being supplied by a high precision tool and gauge manufacturer who is NATA approved and a NCS International-Certified-Quality company for Aero Space and Medical Work.




SL1200 High Precision Bearing Lubrication....

After some investigative research I have arrived at what I believe to be the ultimate solution for the appropriate oil for the SL1200 HP bearing.

I have selected a very thin Synthetic oil to which has been added very Extreme Pressure additives. I understand this oil is used in Industrial, Aerospace and Military applications where small high speed gearbox are subjected to high torque applications and where thin EP oils are required.

The oil was selected after some collaboration with oil chemists and lubrication consultants one of which, has a masters in Tribology.

I ran my own bearing for 100Hrs after which it seemed to be nicely run in, although this must always be subjective!

I have now run it for well over 1,200 hours at 45rpm with a 1.8Kg copper mat and my own 0.8Kg center weight using this oil. The bearing has been run intermittently in an attempt to simulate real life conditions. On examination of the carbide pad and Silicone Nitride ball under a X70 lens I could not detect any signs of friction. The spindle and ‘Oilite’ sintered bearing insert were unmarked.

All SL1200 HP bearings are shipped with this Synthetic oil. The lower oil chamber is closed after accurately setting the carbide pad distance. The synthetic oil is injected into the chamber via a small hole, to totally fill the chamber. This hole is then plugged and the chamber exterior finish machined. A small syringe of Synthetic oil is supplied with every HP bearing, to fill the oil cavity around the top of the bearing on installation

The Synthetic oil use in these bearings is of the highest grade, and is far superior to the animal or plant based products which were common many years ago in Extreme Pressure ( EP ) applications. This oil contains modern high tech additives, which have only recently been developed by the work of oil Chemists and Physicists and which allow for the use of much thinner low viscosity synthetic base oils to be used. This in turn, reduces viscous drag and loss of power in critical applications such as aerospace.

In an application such as the HP bearing, where the maximum speed is only 45rpm, I believe the oil will last almost indefinitely and certainly perform it’s duties for that period.

I chose a low viscosity oil ISO25/32, so that at the relatively slow speeds encountered, the oil would circulate freely and swirl around the ball and pad, allowing for a constant molecular layer of oil to be drawn into the high pressure point where it matters. Incidentally when you get the syringe full of oil you will notice it is of a light blue colour, this is the EP additives. You may need to top up the oil cavity at the top of the bearing about once every 1-2 years.


Marco.

Mike_New
01-11-2010, 02:17
Gosh Marco,
I had forgotten I had written that, it sounds so impressive I will save one for myself!!! Yes I believe that I posted it before becoming a member of AoS.
On reflection maybe I should not have gone into so much detail, for obvious reasons.
Although I have made mention of possibly removing the bottom seal, it is not to be reccomended!!!

Marco
01-11-2010, 09:23
Hi Mike,


Gosh Marco,
I had forgotten I had written that, it sounds so impressive I will save one for myself!!! Yes I believe that I posted it before becoming a member of AoS.
On reflection maybe I should not have gone into so much detail, for obvious reasons.Although I have made mention of possibly removing the bottom seal, it is not to be reccomended!!!

Lol... Yes it does sound impressive, and indeed informative, so I thought I'd include it here for reference.

However, if there's anything you'd like edited out for any reason, just say so and I'll do it :)

Marco.

Mike_New
01-11-2010, 10:19
Hi Marco thanks,
It might be a good idea to delete the para about removing the bottom seal and changing the oil. There is a ceramic precision ball in there and if it gets lost in the process a replacement will need to be obtained.
Thanks again.

Marco
01-11-2010, 10:22
No worries... Done - I think! Let me know if I've removed the right bit :)

Marco.

Mike_New
01-11-2010, 22:17
Thanks Marco you removed the right bit!!!

Mike_New
16-04-2011, 02:01
Hello People;

I trust Marco will extend me the privilege of issuing this post at this time.
(see last part of this post)
I recently today had an email from WOStantonCS100 concerning the purchase of one of my bearings. He noted that he had read on AoS of a possible production stop.
This is not strictly true; and I was unaware of the post concerning this or I would have replied to it.

The reality of the situation is this:--------

Up until about mid Feb. of this year sales were going along nicely having sold about 150 units around the globe. However after that point enquiries (and sales) fell away to zero. So I was obliged to delay the ordering of the next batch of 25 precision spindles from my toolmakers.

Due to the high hourly cost of precision machine time and the high cost of very skilled people to meet my specifications; I am reluctant to order a further batch at this time, as I have to put the cash up front, many thousands of dollars.

What I have told other people (about 3 at this time) is that when I have sufficient people (say 15) who wish to actually buy my bearing as apposed to talking about it, I will let them all know and they can place a $100.00 deposit to secure one from the next batch. When those payments are in then I will activate the next production batch. Delivery would be about three to four weeks. I machine the solid brass housings myself, and fit the special bearing inserts. However only my toolmakers have the special precision honing machine to individually fit each bearing to a specific spindle. and to my specifications. Herein lies the secret as to why these bearings really do work!!!!

I was having a web site built for me by a fellow in the UK (Richard) who has almost completed it, but he seems to have disappeared! repeated emails go un-answered.
The web site is MikeNewAudio.com
Because it is in the process of completion; the site currently has a login and password which are:
Login: mikenew
password: myNameIsMike (note caps)
Unfortunately at this time I have no control over my website. Which is a shame as the object of the website would have been to keep people informed, as I am trying to do now.


I do have 4 platters available from stock.
Platters do not present such a problem as I control all phases of the production cycle from blank to final machining.

On a final note:
Many people have asked me if I can produce a lower quality, less costly bearing (read cheaper). The simple answer is that these are currently available from other sources. I set out to design and produce the ultimate High Precision Bearing; and in this I believe my ideals were justified. However high quality unfortunately does not come cheaply.

Mike New

MartinT
16-04-2011, 09:36
Well said Mike and I do hope more business starts coming your way. The product is a no-compromise high quality unit, borne out in the listening. Your bearing is an essential upgrade in the path to Technics Nirvana.

Regarding your website, what is it with people who start a job and don't finish it? :(

Mike_New
16-04-2011, 10:12
Martin,
In defence of Richard, he did tell me some weeks ago that his house had been burgled and that he had lost a lot of stuff including his car and laptops.
Maybe he is still getting his head around the problems this has caused him.

Canetoad
16-04-2011, 10:22
Hi Mike,

I posted the details on another post of the e-mail you sent me. I was not trying to be malicious in any way and was hoping to drum up some interest so I could get my bearing sooner. If I have caused any confusion I apologize. :doh:

Let's hope interest will re-ignite and you'll be able to do another run of spindles soon. :)

Marco
16-04-2011, 10:37
The product is a no-compromise high quality unit, borne out in the listening. Your bearing is an essential upgrade in the path to Technics Nirvana.


+1

Mike,

If you're struggling to get your website finished, and this other guy is having problems, I'd thoroughly recommend you contact Hamish (that's his real name and username), who runs a web design business. He's very good at what he does, and could further develop and finish designing your website from the existing template. Just send him a PM :)

As for the MN bearing, well, Martin's hit the nail on the head... There are a few companies now offering some very good modifications to the existing Technics bearing (such as Vantage Audio), and those should be welcomed, as choice is always a healthy thing, but as good as some of them are, ultimately the results obtained are governed by the restrictions and inherent flaws of the original bearing design.

One must remember that, good though the stock Technics bearing undoubtedly is - no one is saying it's crap - but the fact is that it was built to a price, just like every other part of the T/T's design.

Therefore, the modified stock bearings available simply cannot be as effective as a bespoke item which has been judiciously (over) engineered by an expert with a thorough understanding of the design principles of the SL-1200. It would be akin to attempting to make the finest Trout Almondine with frozen fish bought from Farmfoods: the results obtained are ultimately only going to be as good as the recipe's weakest link...

And so in that respect, if you genuinely want the BEST, there is currently only one option - Mike New's impressive and extremely effective high precision bearing:


http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5635/img000224.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/img000224.jpg/)


Treat yourself to one, and I promise it'll be the best thing you've ever done to your Techy!

Contact Mike here: mhnew@bigpond.net.au

Marco.

MCRU
16-04-2011, 11:49
+1

Mike,

If you're struggling to get your website finished, and this other guy is having problems, I'd thoroughly recommend you contact Hamish (that's his real name and username), who runs a web design business. He's very good at what he does, and could further develop and finish designing your website from the existing template. Just send him a PM :)

As for the MN bearing, well, Martin's hit the nail on the head... There are a few companies now offering some very good modifications to the existing Technics bearing (such as Vantage Audio), and those should be welcomed, as choice is always a healthy thing, but as good as some of them are, ultimately the results obtained are governed by the restrictions and inherent flaws of the original bearing design.

One must remember that, good though the stock Technics bearing undoubtedly is - no one is saying it's crap - but the fact is that it was built to a price, just like every other part of the T/Ts design.

Therefore, the modified stock bearings available simply cannot be as effective as a bespoke item which has been judiciously (over) engineered by an expert with a thorough understanding of the design principles of the SL-1200. It would be akin to attempting to make the finest Trout Almondine with frozen fish bought from Farmfoods - the results obtained are ultimately only going to be as good as the recipe's weakest link...

And so in that respect, if you genuinely want the BEST, there is only one - Mike New's impressive and extremely effective high precision bearing:


http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5635/img000224.jpg (http://img29.imageshack.us/i/img000224.jpg/)


Treat yourself, and I promise it'll be the best thing you've ever done to your Techy!

Contact Mike here: mhnew@bigpond.net.au

Marco.

Please remind me again what the treat costs Marco, and doe the bearing need the MN platter or will the bearing do for starters with the stock platter?

Marco
16-04-2011, 11:53
Hi David,

The bearing can be used with the stock platter - no problem. As for how much the bearing currently costs, best to email Mike :)

Oh and one thing I would add as a general comment, could time wasters who simply want to pick Mike's brains and have no intention of buying anything, please refrain from emailing him?

Mike's a very helpful chap and interested in assisting all people who are genuinely interested in buying his bearings or platters, but as you will appreciate, he doesn't have the time to act as a free information service!

Thanks in advance for your co-operation.

Marco.

Mike_New
16-04-2011, 23:00
Hi Mike,

I posted the details on another post of the e-mail you sent me. I was not trying to be malicious in any way and was hoping to drum up some interest so I could get my bearing sooner. If I have caused any confusion I apologize. :doh:

Let's hope interest will re-ignite and you'll be able to do another run of spindles soon. :)


Hi Bernie,
Thank you for your support, It did not even occur to me that you were being difficult or malicious in any way whatsoever. In fact what you did spurred me to write the earlier post which happily has generated some more interest,
Thank you again
Mike new

Mike_New
16-04-2011, 23:08
Please remind me again what the treat costs Marco, and doe the bearing need the MN platter or will the bearing do for starters with the stock platter?

Hi Dave,

The treat costs $625.00 including postage,
shall I put you down for three or four!!!
regards Mike New

Spectral Morn
16-04-2011, 23:13
Hi Dave,

The treat costs $625.00 including postage,
shall I put you down for three or four!!!
regards Mike New

about £403 at the time of this conversion few minutes ago.


Regards D S D L

Marco
17-04-2011, 00:23
Hi Dave,

The treat costs $625.00 including postage,
shall I put you down for three or four!!!
regards Mike New

When Dave wrote that earlier, I thought he'd made a mistake.... What's a "treat", then? :scratch:

Marco.

Macca
17-04-2011, 09:36
When Dave wrote that earlier, I thought he'd made a mistake.... What's a "treat", then? :scratch:

Marco.

'treat' as in treatment - still a bit early for you Marco?:lol:

Marco
17-04-2011, 09:40
Probably! :eyebrows:

But why not just refer to it as a bearing? I thought it was some new invention Mike had made!! :lol:

Marco.

Mike_New
28-04-2011, 03:16
Hi People,
I now have a WebSite put together for me by Richard Quaite and hosted in the UK. it is:--
MikeNewAudio.com
Hope you find it informative and helpful.

Stratmangler
28-04-2011, 08:04
You'd better get Richard to change the text on solid copper arm boards then.....


Precision machined from solid brass

Mike_New
28-04-2011, 08:15
Thanks I missed that
Brass does have some copper though so he was about 80% correct!!!!

Stratmangler
28-04-2011, 08:24
Thanks I missed that
Brass does have some copper though so he was about 80% correct!!!!

Even so, 80% copper is not solid copper, is it ;)
I've also been looking at the bearing installation document - some photos would help.
Just found more typos in the platter description.


This serves to damp out any latent resonance that may me present in the platter.


The new platter assumes the use of an external power supply as the existing transformer and power board may fowl the bottom of the new platter.Any breed of chicken in particular ? Should be spelt as foul.

Stratmangler
28-04-2011, 09:08
My final comments - there's no mention of the bearing base plate in the options part of the bearing page, yet it's there on the price list.
In fact I cannot find anything which gives information about the bearing base plate anywhere on the site.

If you look more closely you'll probably find more anomalies and discontinuities.

Other than that I think it's a good looking, quick working website - it just needs a bit more tweaking. :)

chris@panteg
28-04-2011, 09:11
Even so, 80% copper is not solid copper, is it ;)
I've also been looking at the bearing installation document - some photos would help.
Just found more typos in the platter description.



Any breed of chicken in particular ? Should be spelt as foul.

:lol: Chris , what are like , lol

I shouldn't laugh , cos my spelling and grammar's pretty awful :(

etphonehome
28-04-2011, 16:13
I've also been looking at the bearing installation document - some photos would help.


This video may be helpful...step by step instruction of how to get to the bearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhXXDp1-JQ&feature=player_embedded

Stratmangler
28-04-2011, 16:26
This video may be helpful...step by step instruction of how to get to the bearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhXXDp1-JQ&feature=player_embedded

It's an expensive item - I'd expect the instructions to be more comprehensive with some photos at the very least.
A video detailing exactly what to do would be preferable.

MartinT
28-04-2011, 18:11
It's looking very nice, Mike.

colinB
28-04-2011, 19:09
This video may be helpful...step by step instruction of how to get to the bearing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjhXXDp1-JQ&feature=player_embedded

Viper Franks technics videos are very good. Got me out of a few fixes.

Mike_New
02-05-2011, 04:00
For those that are interested.
I have now commenced the production of another batch of 25 High Precision Bearings for the SL1200.
These are a slightly modified version of the earlier design, as they are now fitted with a
larger 3/8" dia. Silicon Nitride Precision Ball. This provides for a greater oil pad and preasure area for those people using my Copper Clad Platter.

REXTON
02-05-2011, 12:55
mike,

Is it worth sending older versions back for you to upgrade them?

Mike_New
02-05-2011, 22:37
Hi Andrew,
It would technically be possible to upgrade by returning the bearing and having a new precision shaft fitted, however the cost would nevr be worth any advantage it would offer. I chose to fit the new ball only because it became available to me from my suppliers.

REXTON
27-05-2011, 16:09
Mike,

Thanks for the reply. I notice over on the Timestep forum that DC has starting pouring scorn over your bearing. I have no idea if you've seen this but I thought it might be worth you knowing.

MartinT
27-05-2011, 17:25
One thing that needs clarifying, as my name is mentioned early on in one of the Timestep threads, is that the motor dynamics mod is not compatible with the Mike New platter. I had to remove mine because I was getting speed instability, especially at 45rpm. Clearly the mod is platter mass sensitive, so if you have it and upgrade to the MN platter, then you'll need to remove it.

REXTON
27-05-2011, 18:19
Point taken mate your just mentioning some problems with some of the mods that are out there with regards Mike's platter, at least you the decency to highlight problems.

Mike_New
27-05-2011, 22:50
Thanks Andrew,
I will check it out, nothing that Cawley says would suprise me after all all the crap he has been throwing at my bearings in the past.
However I am now supplying my bearings with an optional fire control feature!

If the temperature according to Cawley law exceeds 353.67dg C a sensor activates a fire extinquisher which releases 2,594 Lts
of foam onto your SL1200. This extra option only costs $1,673.85; but does not include the foam cylinder which can be shipped by sea freight for an extra $457.00 as it weighs 3,679Kg.

REXTON
28-05-2011, 17:17
THAT MOD SOUNDS WAY COOL, WHEN CAN YOU SHIP ?? :lol::lol:

CableMaker1
01-06-2011, 23:48
If the temperature according to Cawley law exceeds 353.67dg C a sensor activates a fire extinquisher which releases 2,594 Lts
of foam onto your SL1200. This extra option only costs $1,673.85; but does not include the foam cylinder which can be shipped by sea freight for an extra $457.00 as it weighs 3,679Kg.

The bearing with the new fire extingusher feature is really worth it. It brings a whole new level of performance to the turntable. A mod that is really worth it. :stalks: It also helps lower the home insurance premiums. :ner::ner::ner:

prestonchipfryer
02-06-2011, 14:43
You'd better ship me one as well Mike, better safe than sorry I always say. :lolsign:

misterharrison
04-06-2011, 19:31
Getting excited...
:drool::drool::drool:

Mike_New
05-06-2011, 05:58
Hi Will,
I did not realise that you were the two-bearing enthusiast from Lisbon.

I guess I should let all people know that I expect to be delivering bearings this week, from this new batch of 25 to those who pre-orderd in the past month. This will leave me with about fourteen bearings available for quick delivery from this batch, for those lucky people who get in early.

Canetoad
05-06-2011, 06:50
Can't wait! :drool::drool::drool:

misterharrison
05-06-2011, 08:42
Sorry if I let the cat out of the bag, Mike - I was just too excited!

chelsea
20-06-2011, 21:19
I don't have a technics but wondered why all these mods are not done for the sp10 as i thought that was a superior deck to the 1210.

Would it not be better to upgrade that deck?

MartinT
20-06-2011, 21:22
The SP10 is a rare and expensive beast. The 1210 is 90% there and available by the bucket load, used and until recently new. It's also a complete turntable with a rather good plinth, so it's much easier to start with a base unit and then mod it.

chelsea
20-06-2011, 21:24
I thought a new 1210 was only a couple of hundred cheaper than a 2nd hand sp10.

MartinT
20-06-2011, 21:28
A new 1210 *was* that, but now they're much higher priced since the end of manufacturing was announced. However, you're comparing a new deck with something that may have 25 year old components, dried out capacitors etc. Not comparing apples with apples.

chelsea
20-06-2011, 21:34
How much does it cost in upgrades to beat an sp10?

MartinT
20-06-2011, 21:41
Don't know, don't care. I've never had an SP10 in my system. What I do have is a highly modded 1210 that cost way less than half some fully tricked out decks and sounds better to my ears.

Marco
20-06-2011, 21:47
How much does it cost in upgrades to beat an sp10?

Lol - you just gotta love the easy questions! ;)

Marco.

Reid Malenfant
20-06-2011, 21:47
How much does it cost in upgrades to beat an sp10?
Pretty ambiguous question at the end of the day ;) SP10 is just a disc spinner, there is no arm, no plinth, no not a lot :eyebrows:

You can't compare apples to oranges & say one is better because there really can't be a comparison.

1210 as standard actually makes music where as the SP10 certainly cant ;)

chelsea
20-06-2011, 21:48
Ok just intrigued why some spend 2 - 3 grand on a £500 deck.

MartinT
20-06-2011, 21:50
Oh good grief, because the base unit and motor are world class. Don't get fixated on prices. Have you ever heard one?

...and I've probably spent 4 grand on mine.

Marco
20-06-2011, 21:50
Stu, you need to read some of the archived threads here on the subject, otherwise it'll just be a case of repeating the same old, same old. Do some searching and then come back and we'll fill in any blanks ;)

Marco.

chelsea
20-06-2011, 21:54
No probs.

WOStantonCS100
20-06-2011, 23:21
Ok just intrigued why some spend 2 - 3 grand on a £500 deck.

I think the better question would be, "Why would anyone spend several grand on anything?" The answer to that, is the answer to both.


Oh good grief...

:lolsign:

At last check, new, it is on average a $1 K to $1.2 K deck. ;)

chelsea
20-06-2011, 23:26
Oh good grief, because the base unit and motor are world class. Don't get fixated on prices. Have you ever heard one?
...and I've probably spent 4 grand on mine.

No does that make me exempt from asking questions.:rolleyes:
I have heard a few decks since the early 80s though.

If you heard of someone who bought an amp for £500 then spent thousands on tweeking it would you not be curious?

Mike_New
20-06-2011, 23:28
No probs.

Hi Chelsie.
If you are genuinely interested in obtaining a good SL1200 and intend fitting an external power supply, then look at what is on offer on Ebay from Japan, an Australian living there, offers some very good deals on 120V units.

chelsea
20-06-2011, 23:34
Hi mike.
Not interested in getting one just curious to why people spend so much on tweeking one when at 3-4 grand your into some serious stuff on the 2nd hand market,maybe £10,000 deck.

Will have to get to listen to one at some point.

The Grand Wazoo
21-06-2011, 06:27
Hi mike.
Not interested in getting one just curious to why people spend so much on tweeking one when at 3-4 grand your into some serious stuff on the 2nd hand market,maybe £10,000 deck.

Will have to get to listen to one at some point.

Stuart,
You've kind of answered your own question really! Some folks have sold what are normally considered to be properly heavy hitting turntables in order to follow this route, because it gives them the sound that they prefer from a machine with the reliability of a new unit.
It may not be your particular flavour, and that's fine but I can promise you, that they're not doing it out of some perverse need to be different for the sake of it.

Marco
21-06-2011, 07:15
Ok, to briefly answer Stu's earlier question, without regurgitating old info:


How much does it cost in upgrades to beat an sp10?

TBH, it was only after I'd fitted Mike's superb bearing and platter - or more precisely, the platter, after the bearing was already in situ, that I felt my SL-1210 was outperforming any SP10 I'd heard (and I've been fortunate to have heard some very good ones).

Those items, coupled with the superb Paul Hynes SR5 PSU, are what truly elevate the SL-1200/1210 into the T/T 'super-league'. Without those items in place, but with some other mods fitted, it is simply a very good turntable, but not one which is pretty much as good as it gets.

Therefore returning to your question: "How much does it cost in upgrades to beat an sp10?" (and let's emphasise that it must be a good SP10, not any old ropey and unloved ex-broadcast one), the answer is A LOT (at least the combined cost of the three items I mentioned above) ;)

The ultimate, of course, would be a fully modified SP10 (see DC or Richard, from Vantage audio), but then you are really talking megabucks (certainly if you gave DC the job)!!

Does that help? :)

Marco.

MartinT
21-06-2011, 07:21
No does that make me exempt from asking questions.:rolleyes:
I have heard a few decks since the early 80s though.

If you heard of someone who bought an amp for £500 then spent thousands on tweeking it would you not be curious?

Of course not - my apologies, you have every right to be curious. It doesn't start as a financial equation, just a list of items which together make a great deck. The foundation is that previously mentioned great motor and plinth. I really can't think of how I could have better spent my money for the sound I get.

Marco
21-06-2011, 07:44
Me neither :)

Martin mentions the superb Technics direct-drive motor unit; let's not forget that if a hi-end UK T/T manufacturer, say SME, were today to produce a motor unit of comparable quality (presuming that they'd have the engineering prowess and tooling to do so in the first place), then this alone, before turning it into a fully functional turntable, would cost many thousands of pounds!

Now digest that fact carefully for a moment................

The mistake people make, therefore, is in judging the SL-1200/1210 as a "£500 turntable". Quite simply, in real terms, it is not!

It was only that because Matsushita Electric, a MASSIVE Japanese company with huge resources and man power, were able to mass-produce the Technics motor unit so efficiently to a flawless standard (in huge quantities over a period of 30-odd years), and therefore keep costs down, due to economies of scale.

That, and the fact that after having produced the motor unit in huge quantities, since its birth in 1972, Matsushita Electric had long since recouped their initial costs, and so that would therefore allow National Panasonic (Technics) to sell the SL-1200/1210 at a ridiculously low price, considering the quality of its engineering.

Modifications aside, if you examine a bog standard SL-1200 or 1210 next to £1000 'audiophile T/Ts' (and some even more expensive than that), many look like toys in comparison....!

So, no, the 'Techy', in real terms, was NEVER a £500 T/T ;)

Marco.

Mike_New
21-06-2011, 08:20
I could not have put it better myself Marco.

I can only add that I guess for purely market positioning reasons, Panasonic/Technics
chose not to chase the market upwards in quality by further improving those components that are now the subject of mine and Paul’s upgrades.

The reasoning was probably that to compete in that market against the Linns Regas and many other belt driven machines, would have put pressures on the design team who by this time had to a large extent disbursed over the many years that the ubiquitous SL1200 has been in production.

It is to the advantage of those who realize the inherent value of the SL1200 DD design and the upgrades available, resulting in the ultimate realization of an excellent Turn Table whose sonic performance can equally match or outperform the established few whose first-off purchase price may be many thousands of dollars more than the summed cost of the SL1200 upgrades.

chelsea
21-06-2011, 08:25
Many thanks for answers.

As i say i was just curious.
Will have to make an effort to hearing one,probably scalford next march.
Cheers all.

Marco
21-06-2011, 08:37
No worries. Pop by the AoS room, and you'll likely hear both Martin's and mine :)

They don't get much more tweaked than that! ;)

Marco.

chelsea
21-06-2011, 08:46
Maybe next time i see a 1210 going cheap i'll pick it up.
Have been after a dd as a 2nd deck.

Marco
21-06-2011, 09:42
I'd defo do that. You'll then have access to the considerable knowledge and experience of folks here, to get it to sing :)

Marco.

Mike_New
16-08-2011, 06:46
For those that are still considering getting one of my super duper bearings
I only have 11 left from the last batch.

jimkjr
09-01-2012, 20:02
All this talk about Mikes New bearing,should be Compared to the New bearing by Applied Fidelity,it will blow your socks off!

Marco
09-01-2012, 20:06
Got any links to this marvel of engineering? :)

Marco.

MartinT
09-01-2012, 21:20
All this talk about Mikes New bearing,should be Compared to the New bearing by Applied Fidelity,it will blow your socks off!

It looks interesting but doesn't appear to have the structural rigidity of Mike's design. Have you heard it in action?

http://www.appliedfidelity.com/

jimkjr
09-01-2012, 21:38
Yes,I have heard both bearings,and as I said,the applied Fidelity bearing will knock your socks off!I also don't know how the brass housing can be an improvement over the cast aluminum,as the brass bearing has a more significant tendency to ring.

worrasf
09-01-2012, 22:02
I sent numerous emails to Applied Fidelity last year to try and order one of their Technics bearings but never even got a response from them never mind details on how to order one :steam:

Steve

Marco
09-01-2012, 22:13
Feck that for a game of soldiers, then. No matter how good a product is, I have zero tolerance for a company who displays unprofessionalism and ineptitude! :nono:

Marco.

RobbieGong
09-01-2012, 22:14
Yes,I have heard both bearings,and as I said,the applied Fidelity bearing will knock your socks off!I also don't know how the brass housing can be an improvement over the cast aluminum,as the brass bearing has a more significant tendency to ring.

You what ? :scratch: - Have you ever had or held one of the Mike New bearings ?? There really is nothing about it that can ring is there ? I have one, very heavy, solid brass - Very hard indeed and very solid indeed ie: You could do a lot of damage with it. I dont think I'd even dare flick it to see if it rings for valid fear of breaking my finger :lol: - trust me !!

jimkjr
09-01-2012, 22:42
You can go overboard (pardon the pun)with anchors as for weight.But you need to put the weight and the correct material at the right places.The composition of materials in selected postions will always be a highly debated issue

RobbieGong
09-01-2012, 22:52
You can go overboard (pardon the pun)with anchors as for weight.But you need to put the weight and the correct material at the right places.The composition of materials in selected postions will always be a highly debated issue

Hi Jim, Wont dispute as I'm no expert and always willing to learn ;) Hence I'll leave it to someone like Mike New who knows the science behind this stuf a lot better than I do - :)

Mike_New
09-01-2012, 23:01
You can go overboard (pardon the pun)with anchors as for weight.But you need to put the weight and the correct material at the right places.The composition of materials in selected postions will always be a highly debated issue

Unfortunately I do not think our Jim knows exactly what he is talking about.

REXTON
09-01-2012, 23:11
You can go overboard (pardon the pun)with anchors as for weight.But you need to put the weight and the correct material at the right places.The composition of materials in selected postions will always be a highly debated issue

OK, simple, validate your statement with proven evidence. I'm sure we'd all like to hear how you designed the perfect bearing. :popcorn:

Marco
09-01-2012, 23:13
Mike, one only has to look at your avatar to see how much better your bearing is! ;)

The Applied Fidelity bearing looks simply like another tarted-up Technics one (much like the Timestep effort), and complete with its established limitations.

Marco.

WOStantonCS100
10-01-2012, 05:25
Yes,I have heard both bearings,and as I said,the applied Fidelity bearing will knock your socks off!I also don't know how the brass housing can be an improvement over the cast aluminum,as the brass bearing has a more significant tendency to ring.


You can go overboard (pardon the pun)with anchors as for weight.But you need to put the weight and the correct material at the right places.The composition of materials in selected postions will always be a highly debated issue

:scratch:

I can easily accept that the Applied Fidelity Gen 2 bearing sounds great compared to the stock bearing and as such is a good upgrade option. But...

As an owner/user of a Mike New bearing, I flat out disagree with the assertions made. If I've learned anything, it's that the 1200, in general, was not manufactured with tolerances as tight as the Mike New bearing. This MN bearing is more like what Technics would have produced if they had cost no object in mind rather than mass production. Lets keep in mind that Technics had already made, for instance, better tonearms, heftier balanced platters, beefier external power supplies, etc. The stock 1200MK2 is not the best they had to offer despite being very good value for the money (especially when it was still in production). One feels like he can build a turntable around the MN bearing... ...and I just might. ;)

prestonchipfryer
10-01-2012, 06:59
Yes,I have heard both bearings,and as I said,the applied Fidelity bearing will knock your socks off!I also don't know how the brass housing can be an improvement over the cast aluminum,as the brass bearing has a more significant tendency to ring.


Applied Fidelity are using the original Technics bearing housing, a made-to-cost structure. I would be suspicious of it sounding better than the MN bearing simply because of the superb engineering of the MN bearing. As for the MN bearing 'ringing' - RUBBISH. IMOOF

John