View Full Version : The Mike New Technics Bearing
walpurgis
31-03-2014, 10:29
As the stylus tracks, it's more probable that any (miniscule) mechanical energy reaching the turntable assembly would be fed back through the arm and into the structure, as this is a more rigid route than through the vinyl record, mat, rotating platter and bearing, this route having multiple interfaces and materials of varying compliance.
The stylus cantilever suspension can be expected to have some damping effect on what energy is fed through it, so would the arm if that employs damping. There is likely to be transmitted energy, after all, if you listen closely, you can hear mechanically generated sound from the stylus as it plays a record with the amplifier turned off. This depends on what cartridge you use. mechanically, Deccas (they don't use a cantilever) and some MCs are noisy, Shure's for instance and most MMs tend to be quiet (although ADCs are quite microphonic). This is due to the type of stylus tip, type of cantilever tube or rod, mounting method, suspension stiffness and design, leading to microphony, etc. The amount of energy is low though and I doubt this can be a serious issue. Has anybody got any laboratory standard measurements to explain any possible effects?
Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. For every wiggle of the groove, the stylus is being moved to one side and therefore the record is being forced in the opposite direction. Since the record hole and spindle are usually a tight fit, this action works directly against the main bearing. I'll bet a stethoscope held against the base of the bearing would tell quite a story.
Therefore, the seating arrangement of the bearing is critical for good performance, as Mike says.
walpurgis
31-03-2014, 10:43
For every wiggle of the groove, the stylus is being moved to one side and therefore the record is being forced in the opposite direction. Since the record hole and spindle are usually a tight fit, this action works directly against the main bearing.
I doubt that the record will transmit much energy. Vinyl has its own compliance within the groove walls at the stylus contact area, which reduces and damps energy. The vinyl of record as a whole is quite a good damping material.
Energy fed into the record is likely to be angular in direction and not so much lateral on stereo records (vertical on mono).
But how do you know that? Serious question.
Think of the vibration of spinning metal of 2 kg weight (standard platter and record) on metal. Compare that with the vibration produced by the force of a 2 gram cartridge. 1000:1. More if you add a record stabilizer or have a heavier platter. The cartridge is travelling over a deliberately rough surface, but as against that the mat and the platter are damped. There is no damping of the bearing.
I frankly do not think that Andei understands what he is talking about.
1. Please try and be polite.
2. Would you like to buy back the Mike New bearing I purchased? It has done nothing for my system.
walpurgis
31-03-2014, 11:04
There is no damping of the bearing.
Not quite so. The bearing lubricant film provides some small amount of damping. The rocking moment of the splindle/platter assembly and any lateral vibration will receive damping (and centralising) from the bearing/spindle lubricating film on the vertical faces and even the seemingly solid downward contact at the bottom bearing thrust point, will still have a minute film of lube.
There is only one downside I can think of about fitting the bearing baseplate.
You are increasing the contact surface through any airborne vibrations back through the chassis, into the bearing and back up to the stylus. It's probably as small as the benefit gained from fitting it, and as my system is not of a high enough standard to realise minute differences, I will give it a miss. It could be interesting to change the concept slightly, and try and decouple the bearing from chassis borne vibration, whilst still making it rigid. High density graphite could be worth a shot, or a dense wood.
I am really tempted to set up an accelerometer on the bearing somewhere to see what level of vibration really exists on a well lubed bearing. I think at 33rpm, it will be very small.
keiron99
31-03-2014, 15:38
I'd like to see some measurements published regarding the bearings and base plates. I assume the manufacturers take some readings?
I'm rather incredulous that either can make such a significant difference over and above the stock arrangement...but then admittedly I haven't heard them :)
:D LOL!
I'm not expecting any issues...
Marco.
Just re-reading this, and it made me think of something you mentioned on the FX1200 thread - "expectation bias." :eyebrows:
I hope it works out for you, as it's a one way trip. One I am not prepared to take.
Lol - just watch you don't become a victim of 'expectation bias'!*
Not quite so. The bearing lubricant film provides some small amount of damping. The rocking moment of the splindle/platter assembly and any lateral vibration will receive damping (and centralising) from the bearing/spindle lubricating film on the vertical faces and even the seemingly solid downward contact at the bottom bearing thrust point, will still have a minute film of lube.
As lawyers would say "de minimus". The point at issue (posts 744-746) was the relative vibrations of the bearing itself compared to vibrations reaching the bearing from the stylus. If there was lube damping it would surely apply to both vibrations.
walpurgis
31-03-2014, 20:36
As lawyers would say "de minimus". The point at issue (posts 744-746) was the relative vibrations of the bearing itself compared to vibrations reaching the bearing from the stylus. If there was lube damping it would surely apply to both vibrations.
So, you are talking about vibrations generated by the bearing, rather than those fed to the bearing. There are two sets of bearing contact faces. Those attached to the platter spindle and those attached to the TT base (unless you are dealing with an inverted bearing) and these are separated by lubricant as I earlier indicated, any noise generated here would be rumble. The effects of lubricant would still be a factor.
I'd like to see some measurements published regarding the bearings and base plates. I assume the manufacturers take some readings?
I'm rather incredulous that either can make such a significant difference over and above the stock arrangement...but then admittedly I haven't heard them :)
<Yawn> I think the latter says it all, Keiron. This is AoS: a subjectivist forum where we trust our ears.
I couldn't give the slightest tossing wank about measurements, as they rarely tell the full story. Others and I use MN bearings because we can clearly, repeatedly and very genuinely, hear the improvements that they bring over "the stock arrangement".
Why you feel qualified to discredit an item you haven't even heard beggars belief :rolleyes:
All this idle theorising as to whether or not the bearing base plate 'works' or not is irrelevant, as I'll soon know if it does when I listen!
:exactly:
Marco.
Just re-reading this, and it made me think of something you mentioned on the FX1200 thread - "expectation bias." :eyebrows:
I hope it works out for you, as it's a one way trip. One I am not prepared to take.
No worries. Expectation bias is always a possibility, such is human nature. Thing is, if an improvement isn't genuine, it'll always show itself up as such in the end. However, I don't foresee that happening with the BBP.
As always, full report to follow, once it's been fitted :)
Marco.
keiron99
31-03-2014, 21:04
Why you feel qualified to comment on an item you haven't even heard beggars belief.
Marco.
But I didn't comment on it?
I have to confess I hadn't realised this was a purely subjectivist forum. Shame, as I enjoy learning about the technical aspects. A pity that discussion of "facts" appears to be forbidden. But there we are.
You sought to discredit it, whilst having zero practical experience of using it. That's just as bad!
The only "facts" relevant in hi-fi, in terms of musical enjoyment, are what the listener considers sounds best - end of. That aside, I certainly won't have this thread derailed by pointless and unwanted objectivist dogma.
Technical aspects are important up to a point, but proper learning in hi-fi is achieved through the practical experience of listening. In that respect, I'd draw your attention to the quote in my signature from Immanuel Kant, underneath this post, highlighted in blue.
As for this being a subjectivist forum, Keiron, didn't you read Our Ethos before you joined? Our 'colours' are very clearly nailed to the mast therein (especially from post #5 onwards):
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?17-The-basics-of-Ethos
Marco.
So, you are talking about vibrations generated by the bearing, rather than those fed to the bearing. There are two sets of bearing contact faces. Those attached to the platter spindle and those attached to the TT base (unless you are dealing with an inverted bearing) and these are separated by lubricant as I earlier indicated, any noise generated here would be rumble. The effects of lubricant would still be a factor.
I thought we were talking about a comparison of two. One being the the TT base, ie the point at which the bearing rests on the base plate. The other being vibration (if any) ultimately fed into the base from the stylus.
walpurgis
31-03-2014, 22:22
I don't really see how we can take this any further without measurements to confirm or disprove vibration effects. I'm sure it's not something I've noticed having an influence with any TT I've used.
Mike_New
31-03-2014, 23:24
Folks,
Some people have stated that they would not try the Bearing Base Plate as it is a one way trip.
At least in as much as it would be difficulkt to remove.
The older followers of this forum will remember that my original design provided for bolting the BBP to the chassis. However this was regarded by most as being a bit beyond the quantum of most DIYers.
Subsequently I evolved the bonding option which is a lot simpler and possibly superior.
I or David can provide either.
It's a one-way trip but you're not taking a very big jump since a) you're unlikely to want to go back once you've heard it and b) there are plenty of spare chassis or beaten up SL-1200s on eBay for you to swap everything back over to.
It's a one-way trip but you're not taking a very big jump since a) you're unlikely to want to go back once you've heard it and b) there are plenty of spare chassis or beaten up SL-1200s on eBay for you to swap everything back over to.
Dunno about subjectivist, this is getting close to faith-based audio!
MikeMusic
01-04-2014, 09:23
Dunno about subjectivist, this is getting close to faith-based audio!
Knowing Martin and his system very well I'd do it.
If you don't then yes !
:)
Dunno about subjectivist, this is getting close to faith-based audio!
Why? It seems like perfectly sensible advice to me: you 'suck it and see', and once sucked, if you don't like the taste, you spit it out and go back to sucking what you had before...
That's all perfectly normal in the world I inhabit :)
Arf!
Marco.
Why? It seems like perfectly sensible advice to me: you 'suck it and see', and once sucked, if you don't like the taste, you spit it out and go back to sucking what you had before...
That's all perfectly normal in the world I inhabit :)
Marco.
Well, yes, if it was a simple case of 'I'll try this, and if I don't like it I'll take/send it back.' All you've lost then is some time and the return postage costs.
But here we have a non-reversible mod*, so if you try it and don't like it, you're faced with the hassle and cost of a) sourcing a 'new' turntable and b) selling on your 'modded' turntable. Seems a huge gamble to me for what might be little or no benefit.
*I'm assuming that there's no 'return if not satisfied' option, as there usually is for mail order items.
I'm pretty sure there will be a way of testing the BBP, roughly, by not gluing it down too firmly, in order to listen to its sonic effect, and then once one has decided that the effect is desirable, fixing it more permanently.
Honestly, the Scottish term: 'a bunch of sweetie wives, bumping their gums', for the sake of it, or making a mountain out of a molehill, whilst indulging in unnecessary scaremongering, comes to mind! :rolleyes:
Marco.
I'm pretty sure there will be a way of testing the BBP, roughly, by not gluing it down too firmly, in order to listen to its sonic effect, and then once one has decided that the effect is desirable, fixing it more permanently.
I'm fairly sure it would be deemed 'non-returnable' by the vendor once you'd put some glue on it!
Lol - it's only a bloody metal plate, and not in any way expensive, so if it's use doesn't work out, then one simply bins it and writes it off as a mistake - no biggie!!
Marco.
Dunno about subjectivist, this is getting close to faith-based audio!
I've never advocated the base plate unless you're wanting the ultimate Technics mod and you have pretty much all the other mods done. I don't do 'faith based' recommendations, I've always said that you should listen for yourself. Now, I do accept that listening to a base plate is going to be difficult as not many of us have them fitted and you can't do a before/after comparison.
However, the concept is not much different from the Linn Cirkus and all of those chassis mods for various decks. You can apply the technical details to a thought experiment and come to your own conclusion. Many here have said they won't be going for it and that's absolutely fine.
Lol - it's only a bloody metal plate, and not in any way expensive, so if it's use doesn't work out, then one simply bins it and writes it off as a mistake - no biggie!!
Marco.
Ah, but metal plates in hifi tend to be more expensive than 'normal' metal plates. Is there a confirmed price for this particular one?
Ah, but metal plates in hifi tend to be more expensive than 'normal' metal plates.
Lol - very good!
The other thing worth noting here is that I've heard Martin's T/T numerous times (fitted with a bearing base-plate), and compared it with mine in his system, and let's just say that the BBP doesn't appear to be 'holding it back' too much!! ;)
Marco.
keiron99
01-04-2014, 11:35
<Yawn> ... This is AoS: a subjectivist forum where we trust our ears...I couldn't give the slightest tossing wank about measurements...
Why you feel qualified to discredit an item you haven't even heard beggars belief :rolleyes:
Marco, with reference to your posts targeting me above, I would let this rest but you are publicly and inaccurately misrepresenting and mocking me.
I have not “discredited” either of these products, which for all I know, may sound stunning, or may sound crap. I simply said I would be interested in some measurements because I cannot understand how these items can make such a “significant improvement”. Spending so much money, on blind faith, is a big leap for me. I also qualified it by saying I hadn’t heard them and thought my smiley was judiciously placed. This is far from “deriding”.
As for the mocking “yawn” you aimed at me and your comment you “couldn’t give the slightest tossing wank about measurements” - ignoring the lack of respect here - I can only say that I’m grateful that the engineers who design most products do give a toss. I like my turntable to run at 33 1/3, not 34 rpm. I want to know it will work safely on 240v. I want to be able to measure VTF accurately. I know this is not a technical forum, but a modicum of latitude should be tolerated posters being subject to abuse and, I feel, would enhance the discussion.
I don’t know why you are being so defensive and closing the debate down with your “… - end of” comment, just because I’m not inclined to positive bias toward the products on faith. People posing questions are not “scaremongering”.
I have re-read the ‘ethos’ and nowhere does it say that discussion of engineering principles or measurements is not allowed. Indeed it makes specific reference to welcoming viewpoints based on measurement. I do notice you’ve broken at least four of your own rules in your last couple of postings though.
But hey, this is your gaff, so I’ll back out of this one.
chris@panteg
01-04-2014, 11:43
As far as i know there are still no published test results for the MN bearing or indeed the TS bearing.
If the noise floor is so dramatically lowered then this should be measurable should it not?
I prefer a combination of listening backed up by a scientific approach.
I prefer a combination of listening backed up by a scientific approach.
Yes, so do I. Sound engineering sense often helps the thought processes into an understanding of what might and might not work.
I was only half joking about the stethoscope idea and listening to the base of the bearing, I just can't see an easy way of getting one (or a contact mic) to it while playing and neither can I revert to my original (mint) Technics bearing. I'll keep thinking about it.
Hi Keiron,
Marco, with reference to your posts targeting me above, I would let this rest but you are publicly and inaccurately misrepresenting and mocking me.
First of all, I owe you an apology, as unfortunately your comments came at a time where I'd just had to deal with Pimlico-boy being a royal pain in the ass, on another thread, and wasn't in the best of moods, so I'm sorry about that.
I simply said I would be interested in some measurements because I cannot understand how these items can make such a “significant improvement”.
How about this for a simple hypothesis:
The MN bearing, for example, is unquestionably much better engineered than the stock Technics item (one only has to hold both in one's hands, and examine them side-by-side, to absorb that fact), using superior quality materials in the process, thus its use on the Technics results in a reduction in audible noise, compared with the stock item, due to it transferring less vibration to an area where it will be picked up by the stylus, muddying the sound and affecting the accuracy of music reproduced during playback...
In essence, therefore, a better bearing is a better bearing, and so, quite simply, it does its job more effectively!
That to me seems like a pretty rational explanation, not to mention is precisely what happened when I compared the 'before & after effects', once an MN bearing had been fitted to my T/T, when no other new variables existed that could've been responsible for the improvement.
For me, that all makes perfect sense, and so if I saw others whose opinions I respected expressing those views on AoS, after they'd bought an MN bearing, I wouldn't need the readout on a piece of test equipment to sell it to me!! ;)
There's always a point in hi-fi when you have to trust your judgement, go with your gut feeling and take a punt on something, as measurements aren't always going to be available to act as your ears or provide 'proof' that something works, especially during the many instances when what we can genuinely hear can't currently be measured.
As for the mocking “yawn” you aimed at me and your comment you “couldn’t give the slightest tossing wank about measurements” - ignoring the lack of respect here...
Like I said, I'm sorry about that. Unfortunately, years of battling on forums with selfish and blinkered 'objectivists' have left their scars, and so the 'defence shields' go up whenever I sense that someone is 'playing the measurements card', in order to discredit or disrespect my valid subjectivist experiences, especially when Mr Pimlico had just done precisely that, and so unfortunately you got caught up in the backlash.
I can only say that I’m grateful that the engineers who design most products do give a toss. I like my turntable to run at 33 1/3, not 34 rpm. I want to know it will work safely on 240v. I want to be able to measure VTF accurately.
Sure, and I agree wholeheartedly. However, as merely an end user of product and music lover, I prefer to let the engineers worry about the measurements, whilst I concentrate on assembling a system that delivers the best sound I can afford (using my ears as the final arbiter).
I have re-read the ‘ethos’ and nowhere does it say that discussion of engineering principles or measurements is not allowed. Indeed it makes specific reference to welcoming viewpoints based on measurement.
Indeed. Essentially, on AoS, we promote open-mindedness and free-thinking. 'Objectivists' are always welcome, *providing* that they behave themselves, which means respecting the fact that this is predominantly an 'ears first' subjectivist forum, and so they must express their views in line with that, accept that their opinions are liable to be in the minority, and not attempt to 'convert' others to their way of thinking.
Sadly, not many are able or willing to do that, so after a period of time where they're given ample opportunity to fit in, they end up being banned, simply because they fail to stifle their belligerence and innate desire to 'educate' those who simply don't want or need such 'educating'.
That's it in a nutshell! Anyway, I apologise again and accept that I got you wrong :)
Marco.
:popcorn:
I believe that this is the usual response? :eyebrows:
Not sure what you mean, Kevin? :scratch:
Marco.
Going back to the bearing baseplate, do you have to remove the three bearing mounting lugs on the chassis?
As for the bearing, it's a lovely looking bit of engineering. It's a shame to hide it away under a platter, but a slight (and I mean a very slight) improvement could be made to ease installation. Either a PTFE "shim" or increased clearance of the upper surface to PCB to stop having to attack the wire/solder tails with a pair of side cutters. That would make it absolutely spot on in my opinion. It's not that it's difficult to install - anybody with a screw driver and nail clippers/side cutters can do it - more of a case of continued product development.
If you have the cash to invest in a bearing drop MCRU a line, as he offered me a sale or return trial on the product. I was doubtful that it would make a big difference, and I have to be honest, I was pleasantly surprised. I know Andrei has issues with his bearing, and I would love to know why it does not deliver what I heard in my system. I have been back to the original several times before committing the funds, just to double check.
Blind testing would be hard, as I don't trust Mrs H near my deck with a screwdriver, and she is not interested in it anyway. She sees it as a waste of money!
Not sure what you mean, Kevin? :scratch:
Marco.
Not a lot. It's just a commonly used smiley in these parts.
It's actually a refreshing change to see someone publicly apologise for being wrong.
I've never had a problem admitting when I've got it wrong. I'm human, the same as anyone else, and so can (and do) make mistakes :)
Marco.
I know Andrei has issues with his bearing, and I would love to know why it does not deliver what I heard in my system.
+1.
I simply can't fathom how Andrei cannot hear the totally unsubtle, no-brainer, sonic improvements that I could, near-instantly, when I originally did the comparison between the MN and stock bearing, and continue to hear and enjoy to this day.
However, as they say: life is full of mysteries...! :)
Marco.
My thoughts are that he has a near mint technics bearing that does not yet show any signs of wear. The design of the original bearing lends itself to high wear, as I doubt many people lube it as often as they are supposed to. I am also guessing that the tolerance stack of his bearing assembly could be near perfect.
If the bearing has little wear, and is lubed correctly, there will be a minor difference between the two.
I stripped my original bearing, cleaned and lubed it and saw minor signs of wear, mainly at the base of he spindle. It does not retain oil in the area, which for me is a problem I had to fix. My solution was just to buy the bearing that Mike has already Engineered.
The MN bearing will stand up to wear much better, and and each one is precision machined, and this is what you pay for. It would be much cheaper if demand was higher and it was able to be productionised.
I take your point, and I'm sure that's a factor, but the stock bearing I had wasn't in any way worn (as I'd bought my T/T from new), yet I still heard a noticeable and very worthwhile improvement when upgrading to the MN bearing.
I guess we'll never know what's going on unless we visit Andrei and hear for ourselves what he's hearing, or not, as the case may be....
Marco.
chris@panteg
01-04-2014, 17:38
If i might chime in here Marco, a bearing upgrade should make a difference of course but a dramatic transformation?
In my view I would be concerned that something is seriously amiss if there was a dramatic change in sound quality?
Bearing upgrades in other turntables I've owned have always been relatively subtle and I feel more convincing in that respect.
Gordon Steadman
01-04-2014, 18:10
I think we must allow that a certain enthusiasm can creep into descriptions of 'improvements'
If all the things that have been done to people's hi-fis had had the obvious 'night and day' difference we are told has happened, the system is probably 500% better than it started out. Can't have been that good then!!
I think it should be accepted that most changes to high quality equipment are going to be subtle at best and in some cases just different rather than better.
My Technics bearing was almost new. When I switched to the Mike New bearing, there was (to me) an obvious all-round improvement, but it was not 'night and day' as frankly that phrase is silly when talking about mostly subtle improvements. Let's just say that the man in the street brought in to listen to before and after may have heard a difference, but he may not have.
If i might chime in here Marco, a bearing upgrade should make a difference of course but a dramatic transformation?
In my view I would be concerned that something is seriously amiss if there was a dramatic change in sound quality?
Indeed, Chris, but you're exaggerating the words I've used... I said that the MN bearing offers a "totally unsubtle, no-brainer, sonic improvement", which is rather different from a "dramatic transformation", at least how I interpret it, although I guess that ultimately we're playing with semantics.
Let me put it this way: going from the stock Technics bearing, to an MN one, for me was akin to the level of sonic improvement normally associated with fitting a better (usually bigger) linear power supply to a turntable. Both items are essentially designed to reduce noise, the knock-on effect of which is that music reproduced is rendered as sounding more faithful and believable - and subsequently becomes more lifelike.
It is that type of fundamental improvement to the music that transforms a merely average turntable into something genuinely world-class.
*That* is essentially what the MN bearing offers over the stock Technics one, but it appears that some people are able to identify the effect more than others. You aren't going to 'get' it, if you're merely looking out for prosaic 'hi-fi considerations', such as better bass or greater clarity - although the MN bearing does also deliver those traits; you have to be able to listen beyond that and identify what makes music 'tick'.
Marco.
chris@panteg
01-04-2014, 19:31
Indeed, Chris, but you're exaggerating the words I've used... I said that the MN bearing offers a "totally unsubtle, no-brainer, sonic improvement", which is rather different from a "dramatic transformation", at least how I interpret it, although I guess that ultimately we're playing with semantics.
Let me put it this way: going from the stock Technics bearing, to an MN one, for me was akin to the level of sonic improvement normally associated with fitting a better (usually bigger) linear power supply to a turntable. Both items are essentially designed to reduce noise, the knock-on effect of which is that music reproduced is rendered as sounding more faithful and believable - and subsequently becomes more lifelike.
It is that type of fundamental improvement to the music that transforms a merely average turntable into something genuinely world-class.
*That* is essentially what the MN bearing offers over the stock Technics one, but it appears that some people are able to identify the effect more than others. You aren't going to 'get' it, if you're merely looking out for prosaic 'hi-fi considerations', such as better bass or greater clarity - although the MN bearing does also deliver those traits; you have to be able to listen beyond that and identify what makes music 'tick'.
Marco.
Marco I didn't say that you made that remark, you fell into my cunning trap lol.
No it was just a general statement about how fellows can get carried away wirh improvements sometimes:D
I'm intrigued about what difference a top of the range PSU will do for a Technics. It's got to get to a point where my PSU being over two feet away is no longer noisy, and the regulator are close to the PCB that we are well down the road to diminishing returns.
I have heard what a well engineered bearing can do, but a unless I get to a show or bake off, I don't think I'll ever hear a "Carlos Fandango" power supply, and that's a shame in my book!
Mike_New
01-04-2014, 23:01
Going back to the bearing baseplate, do you have to remove the three bearing mounting lugs on the chassis?
As for the bearing, it's a lovely looking bit of engineering. It's a shame to hide it away under a platter, but a slight (and I mean a very slight) improvement could be made to ease installation. Either a PTFE "shim" or increased clearance of the upper surface to PCB to stop having to attack the wire/solder tails with a pair of side cutters. That would make it absolutely spot on in my opinion. It's not that it's difficult to install - anybody with a screw driver and nail clippers/side cutters can do it - more of a case of continued product development.
If you have the cash to invest in a bearing drop MCRU a line, as he offered me a sale or return trial on the product. I was doubtful that it would make a big difference, and I have to be honest, I was pleasantly surprised. I know Andrei has issues with his bearing, and I would love to know why it does not deliver what I heard in my system. I have been back to the original several times before committing the funds, just to double check.
Blind testing would be hard, as I don't trust Mrs H near my deck with a screwdriver, and she is not interested in it anyway. She sees it as a waste of money!
Hi Kevin,
I fully apreciate your observation about having to cut the protruding wires. However I have deliberately designed the Bearing in this way so as to provide the absolute maximum metal where it counts.
In this way the flange thickness is maximised and ballanced about the vertical length of the bearing shaft in order to provide the utmost stiffness of the assembly. I believe the citations I have received for the Bearing over the years, bears witness to the success of my design aproach.
I did indeed consider the use of an insulating shim, but the problem here would be that in some models the wires are longer than average.
The shim would then bend the wires with possible undesireable results.
Regarding the three lugs on the chassis, these should be removed so that the Base Plate is able to sit flat against the floor of the chassis. In fact it would be ideal if these could be removed when just using my bearing without the BBP, however this may cause problems with the depth of the bearing well as I posted a few days ago.
It is for this reason that the Bearing Base Plate represents the ultimate solution to obtaining maximum conection with the chassis.
Has anyone compared a brand new SL-1200 MK2 right out of the box brand spanking new without anything been done to except a cart fitted?
I know when I bought my deck from Al, which was more or less brand new but not exactly, I thought it was fantastic.
I've absolutely no intention of buying a new bearing or bearing plate or platter for that matter, I would rather sell the deck as is and buy something else like the Oracle Delphi MK2 that's on the Wam at the minute for £700 sans arm.
BTW, who is Pimlico boy?
Mike_New
01-04-2014, 23:30
Folks,
I haave read with interest all this stuff about the effectiveness of the Bearing Base Plate, and now in recent posts, the Bearing.
Some of you may rcall that I had a discussion on this forum with a fellow who had a recording stuio and obviously new a little about what he was talking about. I have forgotten his name.
I put forward the idea that if a SL1200 were fitted with a second arm and a record was produced with blank tracks in between the sound
then the second arm could be used to detect any backgroung vibrations ie noise generated by the sound track.
This approach would not be exclusive to detecting quantative bearing or base micro vibrations as there would also be energy conducted along the surface of the record. However it would serve as a comparitive measurement for those who are so aching for measured data to help them hear the music.
Maybe someone would like to follow up this idea.
PaulStewart
01-04-2014, 23:55
Mike,
That was me you were talking to about the test disc. I haven't forgotten, in fact I have spoken to a couple of cutting engineers about it. Pressure of work and illness have prtevented me from taking it forward. However if there is a call for this product I'm happy to get some made, I think it would have to be an acetate as it would be too low volume to press unlees above about 200 were wanted
Cheers
Mike_New
02-04-2014, 00:10
Hi Paul,
Thanks for your quick response. So if folks want to do their own independant evaluation and measurements and are willing to spend a bit of time in the setup of a second arm then you can now go for it!!
Hi Kevin,
I fully apreciate your observation about having to cut the protruding wires. However I have deliberately designed the Bearing in this way so as to provide the absolute maximum metal where it counts.
In this way the flange thickness is maximised and ballanced about the vertical length of the bearing shaft in order to provide the utmost stiffness of the assembly. I believe the citations I have received for the Bearing over the years, bears witness to the success of my design aproach.
I did indeed consider the use of an insulating shim, but the problem here would be that in some models the wires are longer than average.
The shim would then bend the wires with possible undesireable results.
Regarding the three lugs on the chassis, these should be removed so that the Base Plate is able to sit flat against the floor of the chassis. In fact it would be ideal if these could be removed when just using my bearing without the BBP, however this may cause problems with the depth of the bearing well as I posted a few days ago.
It is for this reason that the Bearing Base Plate represents the ultimate solution to obtaining maximum conection with the chassis.
Mike,
Good points - well presented. Without knowing the thickness etc. of your bearing, and conducting FMEA, it would be difficult to see if it would make a difference. I am happy with my purchase anfpd the quality of the engineering that went into it.
You can tell it's a close tolerance, quality bearing and to me it's obvious where the costs lie. It's been discussed recently elsewhere that the noise issue I had with my original bearing could have been fixed with a new "standard" bearing. In my opinion that defeats the point, as this would only be a temporary fix, as you still don't retain the oil in the correct places.
Just out of interest, is it easy to remove the bearing spindle for cleaning and the application of fresh oil.
I don't need to yet, but I am just curious if I could do this if the need should arise.
I have not tried, and thought it would be best to ask before.
Mike_New
02-04-2014, 01:26
Hi CageyH,
From your mention of FEA analysis I get the impression you are an design engineer, Aeroplanes I guess!!
The Bearing is sealed at the base with the three 4mm high tensile bolts.
I have not intensionally set out to totally prevent anyone from removing these, however I use Loktite 515 Master Flange Gasket Sealant on the base (need I say more). And this inevitably gets onto the threads of the bolts, which when tightened, makes them almost impossible to remove.
I do use reather expensive 'extreme pressure' additive oil which should last the lifetime of the Bearing.
The Syntered 'vacuum oil impregnated' bearing insert is also good for the life of the Bearing especially since the surface finish of the bearing is 0.4um; so there is virtually zero surface abrasion wear.
The actual bearing insert is micro honed to fit the shaft.
A good guess.
Thanks for the info on the bearing, and the oil. That makes it even more important that the customers get sent the Correct stuff sent out with the bearing as I really don't fancy trying to take it apart.
Is the oil available "off the shelf", if not can I buy some direct please?
Mike_New
02-04-2014, 06:37
Hi Kevin,
The oil used for applying to the top of the Bearing can be any good quality thin oil.
Obviously not much is required as there is nowhere for it to go! It mainly serves the purpose of keeping dust out of the bearing.
If you got the Bearing from David then he should have some.
I actually supply 10cc in a syringe with the Bearings I supply, it is very thin synthetic oil available from suppliers anywhere in Europe.
Hi Tony,
Has anyone compared a brand new SL-1200 MK2 right out of the box brand spanking new without anything been done to except a cart fitted?
I know when I bought my deck from Al, which was more or less brand new but not exactly, I thought it was fantastic.
Yup, quite a few times. The stock T/T is certainly decent and well capable of giving some of the entry to mid-level belt-drives (such as Regas and Projects) a hard time, but it is limited by a number of factors that are addressed by the various mods available.
At the very least, the stock feet and mat should be replaced with something more in keeping with a hi-fi turntable, as both those items are designed to nullify the effects of the T/T's use in a club environment, in terms of controlling the excessive vibration produced by hundreds of bodies jumping up and down, but which in terms of hi-fi use, over-damp the sound, failing to let the music 'breathe', thus making for a thick,' plodding' type of sound, compared with what is possible when those items are upgraded for something more suitable for hi-fi purposes.
I've absolutely no intention of buying a new bearing or bearing plate or platter for that matter, I would rather sell the deck as is and buy something else like the Oracle Delphi MK2 that's on the Wam at the minute for £700 sans arm.
That's absolutely fine, so enjoy what you've got, and also the Delphi, if you go for it. The latter is an excellent turntable, but very different from a modified SL-1200 or 1210.
BTW, who is Pimlico boy?
See here (from #47 onwards): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31661-Just-pulled-the-trigger-on-one-of-these-babies&p=538160#post538160
Marco.
However it would serve as a comparitive measurement for those who are so aching for measured data to help them hear the music.
:lol: I know, what are they like?
Anyway, I admire your thinking, and if your idea gets off of the ground I think it could provide some valid evidence of the efficacy of your bearing for the benefit of our measurements fetishists! ;)
Marco.
Hi Tony,
Yup, quite a few times. The stock T/T is certainly decent and well capable of giving some of the entry to mid-level belt-drives (such as Regas and Projects) a hard time, but it is limited by a number of factors that are addressed by the various mods available.
At the very least, the stock feet and mat should be replaced with something more in keeping with a hi-fi turntable, as both those items are designed to nullify the effects of the T/T's use in a club environment, in terms of controlling the excessive vibration produced by hundreds of bodies jumping up and down, but which in terms of hi-fi use, over-damp the sound, failing to let the music 'breathe', thus making for a thick,' plodding' type of sound, compared with what is possible when those items are upgraded for something more suitable for hi-fi purposes.
That's absolutely fine, so enjoy what you've got, and also the Delphi, if you go for it. The latter is an excellent turntable, but very different from a modified SL-1200 or 1210.
See here (from #47 onwards): http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?31661-Just-pulled-the-trigger-on-one-of-these-babies&p=538160#post538160
Marco.
Hi Marco, yep I've got Isonoes & techniboots and an Achromat plus a Timestep PSU and a new (to me) arm and one of Steve's armboards and a very decent cart.
The Technics sounds fantastic to me and I'm well pleased with it but if I was going to spend another grand (bearing and platter) then I would be going for a completely different TT but I've no plans at the minute.
However if, as someone else mentioned on this thread, that there was a MN bearing 'lite' for say, £250, then I would seriously consider buying one, I'm sure the 'proper' MN bearing is a fantastic bit of kit but for me I couldn't justify spending £450 on something like that for my TT but then I wouldn't spend that on a cart either or an arm for that matter, well maybe an arm but probably not.
If I had £450 to spend right now on my Hi-Fi it would probably be on an amp and likely valves with the cost of my Brio-R going towards it or maybe speakers.
Thanks for the heads up on yer mate:cool:
Tony.
PS, I sold the Arkless.
No worries, Tony - enjoy the journey, as they say! :)
I'm not surprised you sold the Arkless - too many bad memories... ;)
Marco.
No worries, Tony - enjoy the journey, as they say! :)
I'm not surprised you sold the Arkless - too many bad memories... ;)
Marco.
Thanks Marco, aye re the Arkless, great amps though.
Hi Kevin,
The oil used for applying to the top of the Bearing can be any good quality thin oil.
Obviously not much is required as there is nowhere for it to go! It mainly serves the purpose of keeping dust out of the bearing.
If you got the Bearing from David then he should have some.
I actually supply 10cc in a syringe with the Bearings I supply, it is very thin synthetic oil available from suppliers anywhere in Europe.
Mike,
You have a PM.
I can get hold of Mobil Jet Oil II relatively easily, but I think this may be over kill? :eek:
Regards,
Kevin
Mike_New
03-04-2014, 01:56
Hi, Kevin,
As long as it is thin (low viscosity) it will do the job.
The lubricating oil for the syntered bearing is carried in the actual strucure of the syntered metal, it does not require external oil.
And since there is no lateral pressure on the shaft (no side thrust from belt drive, it merely has to stand up vertically) there is virtually no wear.
Is the original Technics-specified oil a good match? (which is actually Anderol 465)?. Supposed to be good with brass bearing sleeves, and resists drying out/going gummy.
Anderol 465 is a medium viscosity oil, so based on Mike's description of the requirement, it's not the best.
Mr Kipling
03-04-2014, 16:42
What turntable had a spiral cut into the bearing to circulate the oil?
potatoha
03-04-2014, 16:54
What turntable had a spiral cut into the bearing to circulate the oil?
Early Michell decks until they changed for an oil pumping design with bore hole channel and some Kenwood Trio KP/KD series DD drives I can think of.
Mr Kipling
03-04-2014, 17:00
No, I don't think it was either of them.
potatoha
03-04-2014, 17:03
Systemdek?
No, I don't think it was either of them.
According to the design section on the Mitchell website, I would say Mitchell.;)
Mr Kipling
03-04-2014, 17:24
Sorry. I'm not saying Mitchell designs didn't have this feature, but I'm pretty sure it's some other manufacture that I have in mind.
The Grand Wazoo
03-04-2014, 20:09
Early Michell decks until they changed for an oil pumping design with bore hole channel and some Kenwood Trio KP/KD series DD drives I can think of.
Not quite, it's a current feature, I think you'll find - the spiral takes the oil up & the hole returns it to the well at the base.
potatoha
04-04-2014, 07:47
Not quite, it's a current feature, I think you'll find - the spiral takes the oil up & the hole returns it to the well at the base.
Thanks for the correction Chris. I just saw that Michell has the spiral in the housing rather than the spindle itself like many other designs. It's such a clever design as it will always provide the right amount of lubrication without leaving any excess oil being trapped.
Mr Kipling
04-04-2014, 19:55
My thanks to 184.
No it's not Rek-o-Kut that I'm thinking of either. It was a review of deck in Hi Fi Answers from the late '70s or early '80s that I remember it being mentioned. I don't think it was the Systemdek or a Mitchell - but I could be wrong.
I do, of course, mean Michell.
Sorry.
So, having recently installed a MN bearing in one of my old MK5s, I felt obliged to pop in to say: "Crikey!" and to thank Mike for engineering this beast. I've found it difficult to tear myself away from the turntable since installing it, digging out lots of old vinyl-only releases (just had a 90s jungle session :D) that I've not listened to in ages, just to hear how they sound. Bloody marvellous!
kininigin
06-04-2014, 16:07
So, having recently installed a MN bearing in one of my old MK5s, I felt obliged to pop in to say: "Crikey!" and to thank Mike for engineering this beast. I've found it difficult to tear myself away from the turntable since installing it, digging out lots of old vinyl-only releases (just had a 90s jungle session :D) that I've not listened to in ages, just to hear how they sound. Bloody marvellous!
It's a fantastic bearing isn't it! Hopefully i won't have to wait too long to get mine and this time keep hold of it :lol: Play any photek during your session? He made some amazing tracks back in the day!
ChrisKemp
06-04-2014, 17:49
So, having recently installed a MN bearing in one of my old MK5s, I felt obliged to pop in to say: "Crikey!" and to thank Mike for engineering this beast. I've found it difficult to tear myself away from the turntable since installing it, digging out lots of old vinyl-only releases (just had a 90s jungle session :D) that I've not listened to in ages, just to hear how they sound. Bloody marvellous!
Mine is on its way from Mike as we speak:) Can't wait:)
ChrisKemp
25-04-2014, 21:53
Two days ago I finally received my MN Bearing ordered directly from Mike in Australia. Thank you Mike for answering my emails in such detail.
It was easy to install and also I have taken the original bearing out for cleaning/ re-oiling before, so the only difference was to snap off the solder points.
I let the TT be on for 24 hour straight and then another 24 hours. So what did I hear. To me it was more like what I did'nt hear. The background was quiter and then the rest of the music came out better in every way. It's subtle but then it's not. I can compare it to LCD blacklevel vs plasma blacklevel (as in Pioneer Kuro/ my Panasonic VT50). The rest of the picture gets so much better when the blacklevel is deep. This is what the bearing does for me. But I did notice that I had clearer mids and tighter bass.
Lots of new stuff in my system these two last weeks:) On tuesday I got my Line Magnetic LM218iA tube amplifier. It is a single ended triode with 22 watts class A. Huge 845-tubes, two EL-34 Philps replica from Psvane. 35 kg! And yesterday I got a Denon DL-103. I use a Isokinetic Denon DL-103'Stabilizer that is glued on to the cartridge and the spacer is threaded. Adds mass, function as a spacer and reduces resonance.
I must also say that the DL-103 playes rings around my Ortofon Rondo Red MC. And that is even before the 103 is run in.
I'm listening to a new pressing of the Dave Brubeck Quartet. A 180g audiphile master pressing, that sounds absolutely fantastic. The single ended triode, together wtih the 1210mk2 and DL-103 is a fantastic match, really. I also bought from ebay a 22 gram aux weight, so I easily balanse out the arm with the Sumiko/ spacer combo.
My Technics SL-1210mk2 is really entering high end... I now know what "air" and midrange is all about:)
Thank you Mike and Marco for convincing me that the MN bearing was the right upgrade for me:)
rubber duck
25-04-2014, 22:14
Nice. And always good to see the 1210 with its own arm
Thank you Mike and Marco for convincing me that the MN bearing was the right upgrade for me:)
No worries, Chris. Glad it worked out well. I'm also pleased that the Isokinetik stabiliser has produced good results... More people should use those with 103s, as they really make the Denon sing! :)
Marco.
PaulStewart
25-04-2014, 23:12
What turntable had a spiral cut into the bearing to circulate the oil?
That would be the original Towshend Rock, it had a bearing that was developed by the Cranfield Institute of Technology for Garrard before they were sold to Gradiente, which eould have been for the successor to the 401. The unique thing was the groove to pump the oil round the bearing and Townshend got access to it and it went into the Rock.
No worries, Chris. Glad it worked out well. I'm also pleased that the Isokinetik stabiliser has produced good results... More people should use those with 103s, as they really make the Denon sing! :)
Marco.
Hello Marco,
I tried different makes and models of "stabilisers", but nothing beats a headshell that has the weight in itself. Currently using the at-lh18/occ with my 103R on an otherwise stock Technics tonearm (counterweight made heavier with bitumen), very pleased with the results, will not go back to lighter headshells with "stabilisers".
IMHO, the word "stabiliser" is very badly choses as it does no such thing.
Greetz,
Karl
MikeMusic
26-04-2014, 09:33
So what did I hear. To me it was more like what I did'nt hear. The background was quiter and then the rest of the music came out better in every way. It's subtle but then it's not. I can compare it to LCD blacklevel vs plasma blacklevel (as in Pioneer Kuro/ my Panasonic VT50). The rest of the picture gets so much better when the blacklevel is deep. This is what the bearing does for me. But I did notice that I had clearer mids and tighter bass.
Good words Chris. I sometimes struggle to put into words what I hear. That will help an old Muppett nicely :)
ChrisKemp
26-04-2014, 11:42
Thank you Mike:)
@OneyedK:
So would I get better SQ with the AT headshell? The reason why I needed the spacer was because of VTA problems with the 103. Do you say I dont need the spacer if I get the AT headshell?? You say your heavy headshell is better than using Sumiko/ Isokinect stabilizer. Did you try this combo and compare? What was better with the heavier headshell??
@OneyedK:
So would I get better SQ with the AT headshell? The reason why I needed the spacer was because of VTA problems with the 103. Do you say I dont need the spacer if I get the AT headshell?? You say your heavy headshell is better than using Sumiko/ Isokinect stabilizer. Did you try this combo and compare? What was better with the heavier headshell??
I don't need a spacer since I use the Funk Firm platter and the Funk Firm mat.
But yes, I did compare them (not AB offcourse) both by ears and by measurement, the bass is more clear, precise and better defined (not as woolly).
Measurement shows this as the heavier headshell has a lower resonance peak.
I could redo the measurement and show you the graphs, but my retipped 103R (boron cantilever and microridge tip) is in use at the moment (in the AT headshell) and that's even a different beast (1.8VTF so different suspension).
If you want to be sure, maybe start a new topic "headshell weight aka stabiliser versus correct weight headshell", I'm pretty sure others will have the same experience.
Nice. And always good to see the 1210 with its own arm
x2- with a Stanton 500 at the end too.:guitar:
ChrisKemp
27-04-2014, 08:26
I don't need a spacer since I use the Funk Firm platter and the Funk Firm mat.
But yes, I did compare them (not AB offcourse) both by ears and by measurement, the bass is more clear, precise and better defined (not as woolly).
Measurement shows this as the heavier headshell has a lower resonance peak.
I could redo the measurement and show you the graphs, but my retipped 103R (boron cantilever and microridge tip) is in use at the moment (in the AT headshell) and that's even a different beast (1.8VTF so different suspension).
If you want to be sure, maybe start a new topic "headshell weight aka stabiliser versus correct weight headshell", I'm pretty sure others will have the same experience.
My bass is not wooly at all with the Sumiko HS-12/ Isokinetic Stabilizer. It is tight and deep. You have the 103R and maybe that is a different story in your setup, but here it sounds great. If I put the 18g AT headshell on, I would still need a spacer bacause of the VTA. That is way too heavy even with my 22g aux weight.
Not quite, it's a current feature, I think you'll find - the spiral takes the oil up & the hole returns it to the well at the base.
Michell Turntables do have this feature.:)
The Grand Wazoo
28-04-2014, 19:19
Michell Turntables do have this feature.:)
I know!!
My bass is not wooly at all with the Sumiko HS-12/ Isokinetic Stabilizer. It is tight and deep. You have the 103R and maybe that is a different story in your setup, but here it sounds great. If I put the 18g AT headshell on, I would still need a spacer bacause of the VTA. That is way too heavy even with my 22g aux weight.
I also use the Isokenetic with a 103R on a stock headshell, and its excellent.....and clearly much better than the 103R on an Ortofon LH6000 headshell. Not to mention its rather cheaper than said headshell ;)
I'm pretty sure there will be a way of testing the BBP, roughly, by not gluing it down too firmly, in order to listen to its sonic effect, and then once one has decided that the effect is desirable, fixing it more permanently.
With any luck, an MN bearing base-plate will be successfully fitted tomorrow to my T/T. So stay tuned, folks, for a full report on the sonic results achieved (including pics)! :)
Marco.
Audio Al
10-06-2014, 12:42
Marco and sonic ;)
http://download.chip.eu/ii/1399999131_a068bb50cd.jpg
Marco and sonic ;)
http://download.chip.eu/ii/1399999131_a068bb50cd.jpg
That is too tall for Marco.:scratch:
Hey, including ma big dome (posing as a head), I'm 6ft 2ins tall! :D
Marco.
Hey, including ma big dome (posing as a head), I'm 6ft 2ins tall! :D
Marco.
:)
Audio Al
10-06-2014, 16:03
Hey, including ma big dome (posing as a head), I'm 6ft 2ins tall! :D
Marco.
I have to be carful with my big dome , I keep passing out , as there is not enough blood for both of us :ner:
Bearing base-plate now successfully fitted, thanks to AnthonyTD! :)
My reaction to the sonic improvement: :carrot: :eek: :wow: :carrot: :yay:
More tomorrow!
Marco.
Ok folks, as my time is at a premium at the moment, I'll keep this reasonably brief.....
When I took my turntable down to Anthony's to have the bearing base-plate fitted, we carried out the same process we did the last time, when the Paul Hynes regulator boards were being fitted, which was to listen to the T/T 'as is', using some familiar music, in order to assess the then 'current state of play', as it were, and use it as a benchmark from which to judge what difference fitting the BBP made, if any.
Fortunately, when they occur, Anthony's system is very revealing of these types of differences. Therefore, I count his as one of the few systems I can use for reference purposes, as usually what I hear there is also experienced when trying the same thing at home - and on this occasion it was no different. Anyway, we enjoyed listening to various pieces of music, for an hour or so, which I'd brought with me that I'd chosen specifically to highlight different aspects of the T/Ts musical presentation. Therefore, having noted that and enjoyed listening to some tunes, my SL-1210 was then transported to the 'operating table', or rather Anthony's workshop.
The plate itself was relatively easy to fit, once one had read Mike's instructions and digested them properly, and so when the job had been done, we took the T/T back into the listening room, hooked it up to the system again, and proceeded to play the same tracks we'd been listening to earlier. The subject of one's ability to possess a 'musical memory' [essentially a 'sound inside your head' of how you expect certain pieces of music to be presented, due to an instinctive familiarity of such], is an interesting one - and it is a skill which some of us are able to utilise more effectively than others. However, that subject probably warrants a separate discussion on its own elsewhere.
Anyway, as I said before, the albums I'd brought with me were specifically chosen because I knew them inside out, both in terms of musical content and sonic presentation, one of which was Eric Clapton's 'Unplugged Live' album, from 1992, which is simple (very well recorded), acoustic blues music, but shows up a T/T and system's ability to portray voices and instruments realistically, as well as create a 'sense of the venue' and 'live feel' of the performance, as it were.
It became obvious within the opening notes of 'Tears in Heaven' that both Clapton's guitar and vocals possessed more presence, emotion, texture and 'body', with in particular the plucking of guitar strings being portrayed with a greater sense of energy, leading-edge definition and 'attack', such that the illusion created that one was listening to a live performance, rather than merely a recording of such, was better accentuated and thus more believable. Not only that, but the overall sonic presentation had gained significantly greater depth, weight and solidity, which combined to make the whole performance seem more 'real', essentially through the associated mechanisms of music replay, via my turntable, having gained an improved 'platform' from which the music itself was more able to be accurately reproduced.
Furthermore, it also became obvious that, after the bearing base-plate had been fitted, a 'hash'/subtle background noise, which wasn't apparent before, but which must have manifested itself previously in the replaying of musical information, had been removed, allowing for a cleaner and ultimately more accurate/convincing rendition of the music itself, and with it, a more detailed insight into the whole of Clapton's live MTV performance. The extra insight provided simply succeeded to increase one's 'involvement' in it and enjoyment of this superb album, due to the fundamental nature of the musical improvement achieved by the fitting of the bearing base-plate.
In summary, the reasons I suspect for why the improvements gained were so marked is most probably because the BBP successfully addresses one of the main areas of weakness of any SL-1200 or 1210: namely that with no base-plate in place, the bearing (either stock or Mike New) is only being supported on three raised threaded 'dimples' (which screws fit into) on the chassis - therefore it is impossible for the bearing to 'mate' flush with the surface of the chassis - and so that rather flimsy and imprecise arrangement is all that is supporting the bearing, and therefore less than ideal from both a sonic and engineering perspective.
Quite simply, by firmly bonding (with the use of a strong adhesive glue), together with long Allen bolts, and screwing down the base-plate so that it sits fully flush onto the chassis, the bearing itself, in conjunction with the above fixings, can then be attached to a much more secure platform, thus increasing overall rigidity/mechanical integrity, and in turn the bearing's ability to perform the job it was designed to do. The resulting sonic effect, in terms of the reduction of noise (and thus distortion), when music is reproduced, is easily heard in a high-resolution system. I'd say that before the base-plate was fitted, I was perhaps only realising 70% of the capability of my MN bearing, as its efficacy was fundamentally being restricted by the weakest link in that part of the chain [the bearing/chassis interface].
In summary, therefore, my opinion would be that if one wishes to realise the full sonic capabilities of the superbly engineered and highly effective Mike New bearing (and in turn that of your SL-1200/1210), the purchase of the matching base-plate should be considered as mandatory. Had I known that fact when I bought my MN bearing all those years ago, that's exactly what I would have done, so please don't make the same mistake I did... If you're buying an MN bearing, make sure that you also grab a base-plate, and do the job properly...!
Right, I'm off out now to cut the grass! Laters, muchachos :cool:
Marco.
RobbieGong
13-06-2014, 11:48
So how much is the base plate ?
Hi Rob,
See here: http://www.mikenewaudio.com/prices.php
There is a small discount provided for buying the bearing and base-plate together, which I'd strongly recommend is the way it should be done :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
13-06-2014, 16:10
Hi Rob,
See here: http://www.mikenewaudio.com/prices.php
There is a small discount provided for buying the bearing and base-plate together, which I'd strongly recommend is the way it should be done :)
Marco.
Cheers Marco:thumbsup:
Mike_New
18-06-2014, 06:25
Hi Folks,
Whilst I applaud Marco's detailed review of the Bearing Base Plate, (He should have fitted one years ago!!) I must add that although he reccomends that the Bearing and Base Plate be purechsed as a unit, which I cannot disagree with, this does increase the cost somewhat, for those people who want to move into the upgrade path more slowly, money wise.
Marco now uses my ETP Platter; and in conjunction with the newly installed Base Plate this has given him a new level of sonic detail and has shown what the Platter can do. The Base Plate was developed as the result of requests from users of my Copper Bonded Platter for a more rigid base to my Bearing, befitting its potential to get the detail from recordings Marco seems to have confirmed this, as others have also done.
So, as Marco says buy the Bearing and Base Plate if you want to spend the extra cash, otherwise wait until you are ready to buy the ETP Platter and then get one.
Marco now uses my ETP Platter; and in conjunction with the newly installed Base Plate this has given him a new level of sonic detail and has shown what the Platter can do.
Yup, Mike, I can't disagree with that. Essentially, everything succeeds in forming a symbiotic relationship, in order for the Technics to extract maximum information from vinyl records, and present it in the most musically accurate way possible :)
It's just that because the BBP solves the bearing/chassis interface issue (a major weak link of the Technics) so effectively, it in turn allows the bearing to perform at its maximum potential - and the sonic results of that are obvious!
The ETP platter, however, is superb. No doubt I'm getting more out of it now that the BBP is in place. You should try (if you haven't already) a Resomat with the ETP - it's a stunning sounding and very musically revealing combo... Details here: http://www.trans-fi.com/resomat.htm
Marco.
RobbieGong
18-06-2014, 11:53
I hate you Marco !! Looks like I'm now gonna have to find some funds from somewhere for a base plate :rolleyes: :) Just a couple of questions Marco / Mike. I'm assuming the the base plate is fairly straight forward to fit (I'm pretty competant so no worries, did platter, bearing and external psu myself). Also am i right in thinking this mod raises the platter ? if so by how many mm's approx ? Finally would I approach you Mike or Dave (MCRU) when I'm ready to purchase ? any small percentage off for AOS'ers? ;) (mum said dont ask dont get :eyebrows: )
MikeMusic
18-06-2014, 12:08
I hate you Marco !! Looks like I'm now gonna have to find some funds from somewhere for a base plate :rolleyes: :) Just a couple of questions Marco / Mike. I'm assuming the the base plate is fairly straight forward to fit (I'm pretty competant so no worries, did platter, bearing and external psu myself). Also am i right in thinking this mod raises the platter ? if so by how many mm's approx ? Finally would I approach you Mike or Dave (MCRU) when I'm ready to purchase ? any small percentage off for AOS'ers? ;) (mum said dont ask dont get :eyebrows: )
Yes, crossed my mind
Can we stop talking about it please then I can forget........
Mike_New
18-06-2014, 12:45
The Bearing BAse Plate is 6mm thick, therefore it will raise the platter by this amount.
I have given Dave at MRCU permission to make some and have given him the drawing He made the one for Marco.
You will need to get the price from Dave.
thankyoumisterman
19-06-2014, 16:48
I have a new vinyl convert friend who has a stock Techie that is missing the three screws that bolt the bearing housing into place. Since I'd rather not disassemble my own turntable at this point, can anyone point us to the proper size of those screws?
I really don't see what benefit this base plate can have when using a lightweight platter such as the ETP or Funk?
For a heavier platter, yes maybe it has a benefit. Seeing how well the bearing is engineered, I really don't see the benefit.
Mike, can you explain to me in engineering terms what benefit the base plate has please? Marco has described the sound quality aspects.
costerdock
19-06-2014, 19:25
Ping Kevin at KAB - you can get them from him otherwise a hardware store should have them - but you will have to figure out the thread, diameter and length - shouldn't be too hard - bring it in the hardware store.
Mike_New
19-06-2014, 23:38
I have a new vinyl convert friend who has a stock Techie that is missing the three screws that bolt the bearing housing into place. Since I'd rather not disassemble my own turntable at this point, can anyone point us to the proper size of those screws?
Hi Trey,
There are two sets of screws, which one are you refering to??
The short self-tap ones which hold the PCB in place available from any hardware store.
Or the three long screws which clamp the bearing to the chassis, these have a self-tap thread and are special specific to the SL1200 and would not be available in a hardware store. The best thing you can do is to ask around all the folks who have fitted my bearing Base Plate which uses 1/8" Whit bolts and which replace the originals.
They will probably still have these in their junk box and may be willing to give them to you.
Mike_New
20-06-2014, 01:10
I really don't see what benefit this base plate can have when using a lightweight platter such as the ETP or Funk?
For a heavier platter, yes maybe it has a benefit. Seeing how well the bearing is engineered, I really don't see the benefit.
Mike, can you explain to me in engineering terms what benefit the base plate has please? Marco has described the sound quality aspects.
Kevin,
Without repeating myself to much, much of what you ask was mentioned in my post after Marco described it's attributes.
The Bearing Base Plate serves to greatly strengthen the area of the chassis where the Bearing is located.
Also it offers a flat surface over the whole area of the Bearing flange which provides improved rigidity.
The long 1/8" Allen head Whit bolts also allow for greater clamping force of the Bearing to the Plate.
In all the Base Plate provides a much improved support for the bearing and Platter.
As I have stated before use of the Base Plate would provide a greater awareness of sonic improvement to those who would be using my Copper Bonded Platter or my ETP Platter which Marco now uses and has duly discovered it's merits.
thankyoumisterman
20-06-2014, 04:41
Hi Trey,
There are two sets of screws, which one are you refering to??
The short self-tap ones which hold the PCB in place available from any hardware store.
Or the three long screws which clamp the bearing to the chassis, these have a self-tap thread and are special specific to the SL1200 and would not be available in a hardware store. The best thing you can do is to ask around all the folks who have fitted my bearing Base Plate which uses 1/8" Whit bolts and which replace the originals.
They will probably still have these in their junk box and may be willing to give them to you.
The statement in bold are the long screws I meant - the ones that clamp the bearing to the chassis.
Thanks for the suggestions, folks, and Mike!
Mike_New
20-06-2014, 06:26
Hi Trey,
If you wish to embark on the exciting pathway to audio nirvana, then I can supply the three bolts for free with one of my Bearings.
thankyoumisterman
20-06-2014, 06:54
Hi Trey,
If you wish to embark on the exciting pathway to audio nirvana, then I can supply the three bolts for free with one of my Bearings.
I would be delighted, if only I had the dosh to proceed at this time. I intend to upgrade the bearing in my own Technics, and then something intervenes - the central HVAC system in my house, most recently. But I thank you for the offer. :)
What does this bearing reinforcement plate look like? I've done a search but can't seem to find any pictures.
RobbieGong
20-06-2014, 19:20
What does this bearing reinforcement plate look like? I've done a search but can't seem to find any pictures.https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=mike+new+bearing+base+plate&rlz=1C1PRFC_enGB523GB523&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=MYmkU6adAoiy7Aah54GQDQ&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1517&bih=741&dpr=0.9#facrc=_&imgrc=Xo48y-rqHXaU2M%253A%3B-fARbT6bVtuB3M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mikenewaudi o.com%252Fimages%252Fhero%252Fbearing_base_plate.j pg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.mikenewaudio.com%252F% 3B950%3B320
It looks what can only be described as 'proper' to be honest. See link:
Err thanks - to be honest, I've seen that generic Google link.
I've looked through the first seven pages of the AoS link and no picture of it, I've looked at his website - no picture there and I've read the install instructions / no picture there either!
---//
It doesn't matter - I was just casually curious.
RobbieGong
20-06-2014, 19:46
Err thanks - to be honest, I've seen that generic Google link.
I've looked through the first seven pages of the AoS link and no picture of it, I've looked at his website - no picture there and I've read the install instructions / no picture there either!
---//
It doesn't matter - I was just casually curious.
Cool, That particular link shows a fair bit, Is there something specific you're trying to see ?
What does this bearing reinforcement plate look like? I've done a search but can't seem to find any pictures.
Hi Mark,
All is revealed here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16924-New-epoxy-bonded-Bearing-Base-Plate
We meant to take pics of mine being fitted, but Anthony forgot to get his camera out before everything was assembled again. The main advantage of fitting the bearing base-plate is as Mike says:
"The Bearing Base Plate serves to greatly strengthen the area of the chassis where the Bearing is located.
Also it offers a flat surface over the whole area of the Bearing flange which provides improved rigidity.
The long 1/8" Allen head Whit bolts also allow for greater clamping force of the Bearing to the Plate.
In all the Base Plate provides a much improved support for the bearing and Platter."
...and the sonic improvements are easily heard! :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
20-06-2014, 21:46
Hi Mark,
All is revealed here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?16924-New-epoxy-bonded-Bearing-Base-Plate
We meant to take pics of mine being fitted, but Anthony forgot to get his camera out before everything was assembled again. The main advantage of fitting the bearing base-plate is as Mike says:
"The Bearing Base Plate serves to greatly strengthen the area of the chassis where the Bearing is located.
Also it offers a flat surface over the whole area of the Bearing flange which provides improved rigidity.
The long 1/8" Allen head Whit bolts also allow for greater clamping force of the Bearing to the Plate.
In all the Base Plate provides a much improved support for the bearing and Platter."
...and the sonic improvements are easily heard! :)
Marco.
Cheers for link Marco - BTW, Is Dave on hols as I've not had a reply to an enquiry about ordering the base plate ?
Mike_New
20-06-2014, 23:29
hi Folks,
I have had an enquiry asking if the Bearing Base Plate can be fitted to the standrd bearing.
The simple answer is yes it can, as the pitch circle and position of the holes are the same.
However the very loose fit of the standard bearing and the not-much-improved fit of all the other lessor attemps at modifications, would not really result in very much, if any, improvement of the sonic reproduction. It would be better to save up and buy my bearing first, then consider if you want to get BBP.
Hi Kevin,
I really don't see what benefit this base plate can have when using a lightweight platter such as the ETP or Funk?
For a heavier platter, yes maybe it has a benefit. Seeing how well the bearing is engineered, I really don't see the benefit.
Hopefully, that has now been explained (summarised in post #871). In order to help you understand, take the platter temporarily out of the equation...
Essentially, if you dismantle an SL-1200/1210, and observe the standard bearing/chassis interface, you'll see that it is less than ideal from the perspective of optimising mechanical integrity. That is because, with no base-plate fitted, the bearing (stock or Mike New) is only being supported on three threaded 'raised dimples', which when the bearing is screwed down onto, do not allow it to make full (flush) contact with the chassis. Obviously, in that scenario, the bearing is being rather poorly supported.
It's a fundamental weak point in the design of the Technics that must be addressed in order for the T/T to perform at its maximum potential. Rest assured that without it, the MN bearing is incapable of functioning optimally. I'd say that fitting the BBP gave me almost as much of a sonic improvement as fitting the MN bearing itself, as the former simply allows the latter to perform at its maximum capability - and so the cumulative effect, sonically, of using both is superb.
The bearing base-plate Mike has designed fundamentally solves the aforementioned problem by providing a superior platform for supporting the MN bearing, thus allowing for a much more rigid coupling of the bearing to the T/T chassis. Therefore, once you grasp that fact, it's very easy to understand the efficacy of the bearing base-plate - and, as I've said, the sonic results are easily heard! :cool:
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-06-2014, 11:19
Any chance someone might be able to tell me if Dave (MCRU) is about ? I've asked and not had a response ? sorry if I sound a little frustrated but I am. Any response to my question would be much appreciated.
He should be around, dude. Have you sent him an email directly to: sales@mains-cables-r-us.co.uk ?
If not, give him a bell on: 01484 480086 or 07908 056978 :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-06-2014, 11:40
A big Bless Marco, Very much appreciated :)
Hi Kevin,
Hopefully, that has now been explained (summarised in post #871). In order to help you understand, take the platter temporarily out of the equation...
Essentially, if you dismantle an SL-1200/1210, and observe the standard bearing/chassis interface, you'll see that it is less than ideal from the perspective of optimising mechanical integrity. That is because, with no base-plate fitted, the bearing (stock or Mike New) is only being supported on three threaded 'raised dimples', which when the bearing is screwed down onto, do not allow it to make full (flush) contact with the chassis. Obviously, in that scenario, the bearing is being rather poorly supported.
It's a fundamental weak point in the design of the Technics that must be addressed in order for the T/T to perform at its maximum potential. Rest assured that without it, the MN bearing is incapable of functioning optimally. I'd say that fitting the BBP gave me almost as much of a sonic improvement as fitting the MN bearing itself, as the former simply allows the latter to perform at its maximum capability - and so the cumulative effect, sonically, of using both is superb.
The bearing base-plate Mike has designed fundamentally solves the aforementioned problem by providing a superior platform for supporting the MN bearing, thus allowing for a much more rigid coupling of the bearing to the T/T chassis. Therefore, once you grasp that fact, it's very easy to understand the efficacy of the bearing base-plate - and, as I've said, the sonic results are easily heard! :cool:
Marco.
Marco,
I am just surprised that using such a light platter warrants use of a base plate. I can understand it for the heavyweight platters. When I look at the bearing mount, I don't think that it will move under the forces of a 1.4 kg platter revolving around it so for me, it's interesting to know that it makes a big difference, and not a subtle one. Having seen someone do a 360 hand-spin on a standard bearing without breaking the deck, I would hardly call it a weak point. The only issue for me is the increase of 6mm of the platter surface. That's a lot of VTA to take up, which I don't think the stock Technics base will account for.
Marco, I don't know why you don't just dump the old plinth altogether as I would expect that to give even greater benefit. Who is the member (awkward by design?) who did the veneered concrete plinth - he could probably make you one.
chris@panteg
21-06-2014, 12:25
It really does make more sense to just trade up to a nicely fettled SP10 or something else as good.
Stratmangler
21-06-2014, 12:33
Marco, I don't know why you don't just dump the old plinth altogether as I would expect that to give even greater benefit. Who is the member (awkward by design?) who did the veneered concrete plinth - he could probably make you one.
Is was Qwin.
Stratmangler
21-06-2014, 12:33
It really does make more sense to just trade up to a nicely fettled SP10 or something else as good.
What price are we talking Chris, and from whom?
MikeMusic
21-06-2014, 13:00
Thanks Marco
That is a bit substantial
It really does make more sense to just trade up to a nicely fettled SP10 or something else as good.
We've been here before, Chris. I guess it depends on what you mean by "nicely fettled", as every single stock SP10 (fitted to a high-quality plinth and partnered with a top-notch arm and cartridge) I've compared my modified Techy against has either sounded worse or no better than it.
Furthermore, as I've said before many times, I'm not big on using a direct-drive T/T containing 40-year old electronics.
More responses later, folks - it's lunch time! :cool:
Marco.
SP10 - eBay price depending on age and quality
Stratmangler
21-06-2014, 13:36
SP10 - eBay price depending on age and quality
So not exactly a ready supply then ...
The SL1210 and parts can still be easily obtained from eBay.
Marco,
I am just surprised that using such a light platter warrants use of a base plate. I can understand it for the heavyweight platters. When I look at the bearing mount, I don't think that it will move under the forces of a 1.4 kg platter revolving around it so for me, it's interesting to know that it makes a big difference, and not a subtle one. Having seen someone do a 360 hand-spin on a standard bearing without breaking the deck, I would hardly call it a weak point. The only issue for me is the increase of 6mm of the platter surface. That's a lot of VTA to take up, which I don't think the stock Technics base will account for.
Hi Kevin,
You're focussing on the wrong thing, mate. The efficacy of the BBP has got nothing to do with the weight of the platter; it's about addressing (and fundamentally solving) the ineffectiveness of the bearing/chassis interface, as exists as standard on an SL-1200/1210.
These are the most telling pictures of the BBP (and MN bearing) in situ, versus what exists with the stock arrangement:
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/842/8rywz.jpg http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/834/67zjz.jpg
Note, from the picture on the left, how effectively the bearing is being supported on the base plate, and how the whole assembly is securely coupled to the chassis.
Quite simply, without the BBP, that just doesn't happen, as the base of the bearing is left merely 'floating' on top of three threaded 'shafts' (as seen on the picture on the right). It does not/cannot couple flush to the chassis - hardly a recipe for ensuring ultimate rigidity!
Now ultimate rigidity matters, not because of the weight of the platter, but in order to ensure that the bearing itself functions optimally and reduces noise transferred onto the spindle, which is thus picked up by the stylus when a record is playing..... Essentially, it's all about coupling the bearing as rigidly as possible to the chassis - and that job is achieved much more effectively with the BBP.
Are you getting it now, daftee? ;)
Marco.
P.S In terms of VTA adjustment, you're correct. However, with a 'low-riding' bespoke-made Speedy Steve armboard fitted, there is ample adjustment available in order to ensure that VTA is spot on (even when using a Resomat, which raises records themselves up higher). That certainly won't be the case, however, with most armboards.
Marco,
I understand the whole concept of rigidity, and I understand that the BBP will help this, but you need to ensure that it is bonded squarely to the chassis. I am unsure of just how much more rigid you need the bearing. It's nicely engineered, and when supported at three points, it does not move a great deal when in normal use. if there was a bit of play evident without the BBP fitted, then sure, I understand why you would fit one. My bearing hardly moves (not evident to the human eye or to the touch), even when I apply a side load on the spindle. Sure, I could measure this with a DTI to see what extent it moves, but I think that you are worrying over nothing. I'm glad that you have perceived an improvement, but I think that a lower profile BBP should be possible without the need to raise the platter by 6mm if all you are after is a mounting flange.
I really don't see how the chassis/bearing interface flexes enough under normal use to warrant a bonded on structural upgrade - the key words being normal use. There are very minor forces acting on the bearing when playing vinyl. These forces are comfortably within the operating limits of the materials and fasteners used.
As for the armboard, I would need to talk to Speedy Steve about a version standard Technics arm, and then have the fun of stripping everything down to fit the board, and reassembling it, all for what is probably a subtle upgrade?
I'll chew it over for a while longer.
Has it been fitted with Hylomar Blue?
Marco, I don't know why you don't just dump the old plinth altogether as I would expect that to give even greater benefit. Who is the member (awkward by design?) who did the veneered concrete plinth - he could probably make you one.
I admire what Qwin has done, and I'm sure it sounds great. However, for me, it's a 'bridge too far', particularly when I like the design principles (and sonic signature) of the stock plinth.
All I'm planning to do now is have the pitch control (and associated buttons) removed from the top-plate, and replace the top-plate itself with a black carbon-fibre one (like Floyddroid's), in order for the T/T to look 'cleaner', aesthetically.
After that it'll be FINITO! Then I'll be indulging my vintage idler T/T fetish, with the purchase of an Audio Grail, fully restored, grey hammerite Garrard 301 and/or fully Swissonor-modified Thorens TD124 :)
Marco.
I really don't see how the chassis/bearing interface flexes enough under normal use to warrant a bonded on structural upgrade - the key words being normal use. There are very minor forces acting on the bearing when playing vinyl. These forces are comfortably within the operating limits of the materials and fasteners used.
Well, as they say, the 'proof of the pudding is in the listening'.... In that respect, the cumulative effect, sonically, of fitting a BBP to an MN bearing is far from subtle.
I understand the whole concept of rigidity, and I understand that the BBP will help this, but you need to ensure that it is bonded squarely to the chassis.
Indeed, and that issue is tackled very clearly in the fitting instructions and addressed by the supplied Whit bolts.
As for the armboard, I would need to talk to Speedy Steve about a version standard Technics arm, and then have the fun of stripping everything down to fit the board, and reassembling it, all for what is probably a subtle upgrade?
Well, for me the upgrade produced by fitting one of Steve's beautifully crafted ebony armboards was about as 'subtle' as upgrading the stock tonearm cable on my Ortofon arm for one from Yannis! ;)
However, the improvement, musically, was of a rather different nature.
Marco.
Has it been fitted with Hylomar Blue?
No, Jazzbones used that. I used the strongest available type of Araldite.
Marco.
It's just as well you like it then. :eyebrows:
Indeed... Frankly, I couldn't see how it would've made things worse (furthermore, I had heard Martin T's modded Techy umpteen times, which sounded fantastic, despite or because of the BBP), so decided to give it a go - and I'm delighted that I did!! :)
The results of the 'before & after' listening tests, conducted at Anthony's place (where afterwards no variables other than the BBP had entered the equation), also proved that fitting one was a no brainer.
Marco.
I admire what Qwin has done, and I'm sure it sounds great. However, for me, it's a 'bridge too far', particularly when I like the design principles (and sonic signature) of the stock plinth.
All I'm planning to do now is have the pitch control (and associated buttons) removed from the top-plate, and replace the top-plate itself with a black carbon-fibre one (like Floyddroid's), in order for the T/T to look 'cleaner', aesthetically.
I'm really surprised you feel like that as you have already changed every component other than the plinth and the motor. If I was looking to mod the Technics the first thing I would do is rebuild the plinth! Personally, I wouldn't make it from concrete, or veneer it, but many roads lead to paradise.
I'm also surprised you say you like the sonic signature of the standard plinth - how do you know without trying any alternatives to it? Perhaps you would feel differently if one of your preferred manufactures of Techie mods produced one...
Perhaps, especially if if the modification was offered as being reversible! ;)
Also, if someone else whose modded Techincs and system I knew well (say Martin T or DarrenHW) were to go down that route, and I liked what I heard when comparing their T/Ts to mine, in their systems (or in my own), I'd be much more inclined to modify the plinth, as the process and sonic results achievable would be less of an unknown factor. Otherwise, it's simply not something I'd be willing to take a punt on.
I also happen to think that the stock plinth is well thought out and executed, and once free from being influenced by restrictive factors elsewhere within the design of the T/T, is significantly responsible for producing a sound that I like.
Essentially, the plinth certainly doesn't seem to be doing anything wrong, to my ears, or indeed significantly holding back its performance such that it is unable to compete with some of today's top T/T designs, in some cases which cost many thousands of pounds more than I've spent on my T/T.... :)
Marco.
I'm not keen on the big rubber boot element of the plinth - but who knows, without experimenting, it may actually be ideal. The plinth is a reasonably simple construct - in terms of concept rather than realisation - a die-cast aluminium top with a large rubberised base screwed to it. It would be interesting to see if removing the rubber base sounded different/better/worse.
I would have thought any plinth would be a reversible mod as it all screws and bolts to the plinth - not so much if bits of it are now glued I suppose.
costerdock
21-06-2014, 20:28
Perhaps, especially if if the modification was offered as being reversible! ;)
Also, if someone else whose modded Techincs and system I knew well (say Martin T or DarrenHW) were to go down that route, and I liked what I heard when comparing their T/Ts to mine, in their systems (or in my own), I'd be much more inclined to modify the plinth, as the process and sonic results achievable would be less of an unknown factor. Otherwise, it's simply not something I'd be willing to take a punt on.
I also happen to think that the stock plinth is well thought out and executed, and once free from being influenced by restrictive factors elsewhere within the design of the T/T, is significantly responsible for producing a sound that I like.
Essentially, the plinth certainly doesn't seem to be doing anything wrong, to my ears, or indeed significantly holding back its performance such that it is unable to compete with some of today's top T/T designs, in some cases which cost many thousands of pounds more than I've spent on my T/T.... :)
Marco.
Not to mention the M5G is a very beautiful table on its own - so doing it to make it look more woodsy - doesn't make a whole lot of sense - besides that I cannot see the plinth really holding it back soundwise.
There's no logic there TBH, the plinth isn't holding it back but literally everything else is.
Well, the motor unit certainly isn't, that's for sure! ;)
We'll have to agree to disagree, Mark, about the plinth. I've got quite a few years experience now of modding the Technics, and so have a good handle on its strengths and weaknesses, and IMO, the plinth doesn't qualify as being one of the latter.
However, the bottom line for me, however you cut it, is that plinth included, and especially after the BBP has been fitted, this Techy is capable of competing with the very best.
That was the case beforehand (based on the evidence produced by various comparisons), but even more so now. I'd honestly love to take it round some high-end dealers, and put it up against the best T/Ts that they had (I wouldn't care what they were or how much they cost), just to see what would happen!! :eyebrows:
Incidentally, the other thing I should mention is that the Denon DL-S1 cartridge has been an utter revelation......
Marco.
Not to mention the M5G is a very beautiful table on its own - so doing it to make it look more woodsy - doesn't make a whole lot of sense - besides that I cannot see the plinth really holding it back soundwise.
I totally agree on all counts. If I was going to put it in a new plinth, wood (on its own) is not what I'd use.
Marco.
I wouldn't use wood either, but then the look of the M5G isn't to my taste either, too fussy.
Unless one has experimented with changing the plinth (or any other part) I'll have to take opinion with a pinch of salt. It's all academic though as nobody does aftermarket plinths.
Well, the motor unit certainly isn't, that's for sure!
Well you say that, but you don't really know unless you have tried different direct drive solutions with all the other bits you have added bolted on.
You've compared to an SP10, but presumably that had the stock bearing, bearing mounting plate, platter, power supply, feet etc. - what would it sound like with the same amount of care taken to improve it...
Looks, of course, are a matter of personal taste. I happen to like the look of the MK5G, although minus the (superfluous to requirements) pitch controls, it would be a lot better.
Honestly, if I thought for one second that the plinth was significantly holding back the T/T's performance, I'd have done something about it. Quite clearly, however, it isn't, as otherwise the T/T couldn't possibly sound as good as it does!
Why don't I bring it round to your place and you can have a listen for yourself, and compare it with your own? :)
Marco.
Well you say that, but you don't really know unless you have tried different direct drive solutions with all the other bits you have added bolted on.
Sure, but in life not everything is possible. Let's just say that experience tells me that the motor unit in the Techincs is, sonically, rather special. Nothing, however, is perfect.
You've compared to an SP10, but presumably that had the stock bearing, bearing mounting plate, platter, power supply, feet etc. - what would it sound like with the same amount of care taken to improve it...
I've compared my modded SL-1210 to about seven (very different) SP10s, and none of them made me go 'wow, I must have that', otherwise me being me, I'd have bought one by now ;)
Yes, undoubtedly a similarly (judiciously) modified SP10 would most likely be even better, but I don't see anyone currently producing the necessary bits you've mentioned to do it!
Marco.
RobbieGong
21-06-2014, 23:09
As a mk5g owner myself I too think they look very nice indeed, particularly with the ebony armboard and Mikes ETP platter added. I dont mind the pitch slide as I dont think it spoils it. Like you though Marco I would consider removing it IF and only if the 'fill in' and finish was absolutely on point. Also with all the mods I've done and what I've heard from my own Techie, I've never sensed in anyway that the plinth was a hindrance of any kind :)
chris@panteg
22-06-2014, 09:20
What price are we talking Chris, and from whom?
Sorry for being so late getting back to you Chris , had an incredible day yesterday ! Became a Grandad , a girl ,Ruby Mary Kate 8 pound 11 oz .
Sorry for the thread drift .
Between £500 and £1200 depending on spec and condition , A Mike New Bearing BBP and platter is about £1300 or so ?
Like I said to you before ,I am finally happy with the way my 1210 is sounding (at last) but I don't think mine is any better than anyone else's 1210 or any other TT for that matter , I really don't care , its good enough for me at this moment , but if I was looking to spend that sort of money I would be looking at an SP10 or something similar rather than bodge around any further with my 1210 + it would make for a very top heavy system , I'm still looking at changing my speakers next .
Clive197
22-06-2014, 10:01
It's all academic though as nobody does aftermarket plinths.
I think Robert at Inspire Audio might strongly disagree with you on that. He produces a very good well made plinth for the SL1200/1210 in any finish or colour you would wish for. He tried to sell me one when I bought my M5G from him. Like many here it wasn't to my taste.
I also agree that the pitch control spoils the look of the deck and would gladly dispense with the device if I had the necessary skills to do so, but I haven't so it has to stay.:(
Mike_New
23-06-2014, 02:00
Hi Folks,
I have chased up Dave of MRCU to answer your emails, he should have Base Plates and the bolts available by now.
He says he is also getting ready to purchase another block of 10 bearings for all you lucky guys in the UK.
Excellent... Make sure that he definitely supplies the bolts (and 'distance pieces')! Remember that the latter are also rather important ;)
IMO, to eliminate any 'faffing about', the BBP should be supplied as a 'kit', consisting of the BBP itself, all necessary fixings and a tube of appropriate adhesive, so that the customer has to hand everything that he or she needs to do the job, with the minimum of fuss :)
Marco.
Mike_New
23-06-2014, 07:57
Marco,
I do not supply the Epoxy with the base Plates which I supply from here as this makes the packaging bulky and could result in a busted tube. I will leaave it to Dave to decide what to do.
Yup, Mike. My comments were aimed solely at what Dave does at his end. Perish the thought of sending tubes of glue from Oz! :eek:
Are you supplying him with the 'distance pieces'/spacers, for the PCB, or is he getting them machined in the UK?
Marco.
Any AOS member wanting a base plate please send me an e-mail david@mcru.co.uk
The brass spacers I am getting made at the moment, sourcing the whitworth screws/bolts
The self tapping screws I will provide those as well, prices to be confirmed shortly via my website.
Any further questions please direct them to me via my e-mail address.
Thanks
Excellent :thumbsup:
Marco.
RobbieGong
23-06-2014, 21:05
Marco,
I do not supply the Epoxy with the base Plates which I supply from here as this makes the packaging bulky and could result in a busted tube. I will leaave it to Dave to decide what to do.
Dave does not supply the glue apparently so I think that needs clarifying from both business and customer perspective.
No problemo, Rob. Thanks for the clarification. I guess folk can get hold of some Araldite easily enough... The spacers and bolts, however, are a different matter :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
23-06-2014, 21:22
Cheers Marco, We just need perspective purchasers like myself to be made aware of that so we are not searching in the package for something that wont be included ;)
RobbieGong
24-06-2014, 11:55
Well, the motor unit certainly isn't, that's for sure! ;)
We'll have to agree to disagree, Mark, about the plinth. I've got quite a few years experience now of modding the Technics, and so have a good handle on its strengths and weaknesses, and IMO, the plinth doesn't qualify as being one of the latter.
However, the bottom line for me, however you cut it, is that plinth included, and especially after the BBP has been fitted, this Techy is capable of competing with the very best.
That was the case beforehand (based on the evidence produced by various comparisons), but even more so now. I'd honestly love to take it round some high-end dealers, and put it up against the best T/Ts that they had (I wouldn't care what they were or how much they cost), just to see what would happen!! :eyebrows:
Incidentally, the other thing I should mention is that the Denon DL-S1 cartridge has been an utter revelation......
Marco.
Slightly off thread i know but I was in communication recently with a guy on da Bay regarding a big Sony ES he had up for auction. Here is one of the comments he made in relation to it and his system - coincidently! which i've copied and pasted from the email 'Just bought a Denon DL-S1 cartridge to replace my aged DL-304 and I have been blown away' . :)
Hello,
So very sorry with the delays for supplying the bearing base plates, the plates themselves are easy to produce, the
self tapping screws ok, whitworth thread cap head screws less so, brass spacers/stand offs made.
I just need to get the self tapping screws in and the kit will be ready, that should be over the weekend, I will let
all and sundry know once the kits are ready, the glue is simply 2 part araldite which you can buy in B+Q or online
so no point me sending any one that in case the couriers confiscate it (DHL as an example x-ray every shipment)
Thanks
Mike_New
11-07-2014, 22:55
Hi Folks,
Remember the Araldite epoxy must be the High Strength version not the quick setting on
RobbieGong
03-08-2014, 15:19
Hi, Could someone kindly point me to a link (or image) of the exact Araldite to purchase please. There a few high strength types and I'd really like to make sure I purchase the right one. - ATB.
Hi Robert,
Mike recommends Alraldite super strength, which comes in two small tubes, such as this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/ARALDITE-RAPID-ADHESIVE-SUPER-STRONG/dp/B000WA5P5I
:)
Marco.
RobbieGong
03-08-2014, 20:49
Hi Marco, Thanks for getting back. Mike says in earlier post 'Araldite epoxy must be the High Strength version not the quick setting one'. The link you have sent is Super strength but rapid set :scratch:
Ah, ok, well simply go for the super strength but non-rapid setting :)
Marco.
RobbieGong
03-08-2014, 21:10
lol! Yep will have another look in a few diy stores tomorrow :)
Mike_New
03-08-2014, 22:45
Hi Marco, Thanks for getting back. Mike says in earlier post 'Araldite epoxy must be the High Strength version not the quick setting one'. The link you have sent is Super strength but rapid set :scratch:
For the information of all those folks who are contemplating fitting the Base Plate.
I have used the High Strength Araldite available in OZ. I have not come across the quick setting version.
It is probably not critical, we are not gluing aircraft skins together with it!
Hi Mike,
The commonest quick setting in Oz is 'Selleys 5 Minute Araldite'. By the spec sheets, the normal (high strength) gels in 2 hours, bonds in 6 to 8 hours and reaches full strength in 3 days. The '5 minute' gels in 5 mins (i've found it can be quicker on a hot day), bonds in 20 mins and full (lesser) strength in 16 hours. I presume pretty much the same specs from other manufacturers.
I really think the issue is about working time, not strength as you say. Nothing worse than having it go off too quickly before it can be squished down to its final position.:eek:
Mike_New
04-08-2014, 05:28
Hi Lyton,
Thanks for that, your enthusiasm indicates you could be a good candidate for one of my bearings.
I have just completed another batch and Dave will be getting 10 of those.
Hi Mike,
It was such a long time ago you might not remember but I bought one of the first ones you made. One of the best hifi decisions I've ever made. So I'm already a true blue, card carrying 'New Bearing' enthusiast.:wave: :lol:
Mike_New
05-08-2014, 00:05
Thanks for the support Lyn, now I come to think of it I do recall you buying one but that must have
been nearly 4 years ago!!! You must consider my ETP Platter or do you also have that as well.
Yes it must be about the 4 years; doesn't time just fly when you're playing great vinyl. :) No, don't have the ETP platter (as yet) as I've had other items getting priority and there's always a budget but never say never.:eyebrows:
Thanks for the support Lyn, now I come to think of it I do recall you buying one but that must have
been nearly 4 years ago!!!
...and some say that this whole 'modded Techy thing' was merely a flash in the pan, or a 'flavour of the month' ;)
If so, then it's been the longest month in history!!! Quite simply, when a product is genuinely good, it stands the test of time.
Marco.
...and some say that this whole 'modded Techy thing' was merely a flash in the pan, or a 'flavour of the month' ;)
If so, then it's been the longest month in history!!! Quite simply, when a product is genuinely good, it stands the test of time.
Marco.
Agreed :)
Indeed, David, and that applies both to the Technics T/T itself and the judicious modifications to it thereof, using products from various skillful and knowledgeable manufacturers, carried out by the discerning audio enthusiasts of AoS :)
Marco.
Indeed, David, and that applies both to the Technics T/T itself and the judicious modifications to it thereof, using products from various skilful and knowledgeable manufacturers, carried out by the discerning audio enthusiasts of AoS :)
Marco.
Yes indeedy, the Techy is not dead by a long shot as I have a review coming up very shortly for Mikes bearing and platter so a few more people can discover for themselves what an excellent and fun project buying a Techy and up-grading it is, the emphasis is on "fun" as there is far too much doom and gloom going on in the world today. Mike just sent me 10 more bearings so one has been earmarked for review in a top hifi magazine.:)
Excellent news! Which mag is it, so we can look out for the review? :cool:
Marco.
Excellent news! Which mag is it, so we can look out for the review? :cool:
Marco.
That would be telling :ner:
Not really prudent to say as the competition may offer their version as well? :)
Rest assured I will tell all and sundry when it appears
H'okay-dokes, no worries :)
I'm glad that Mike's designs are getting some proper exposure and recognition at last!
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
07-08-2014, 10:33
That is something to I look forward too. :)
I don't, not now that DP has defected to Hi-Fi Choice! ;)
Marco.
Hi-Fi For Pleasure then... or Hi-Fi Today perhaps.
Doesn't really seem like a Choice thing - I still reckon World but we'll see (unfortunately I don't read either of those mags so I won't personally see - but you get my drift).
Does that still exist?
Marco.
Does that still exist?
Marco.
In my memory:) - it's a sort of joke relating to how magazines have changed. I think mags should do more stuff of this type and more 'tweaking' stuff in general - making your own cables etc. It's interesting to read about high-end gear that is pushing the design envelope - but a lot of reviewing has just become elaborate repetition of the sales brochure.
I think mags should do more stuff of this type and more 'tweaking' stuff in general - making your own cables etc. It's interesting to read about high-end gear that is pushing the design envelope - but a lot of reviewing has just become elaborate repetition of the sales brochure.
I completely agree. There should be more articles featured that appeal to GENUINE enthusiasts, such as you've highlighted, and less that pander to the interests of those with an obsession for 'audiophile jewellery'.
Marco.
I actually like reading about ultra expensive audio, but I want to read a genuinely considered investigation not just the rephrasing of the manufacturers marketing blurb that seems to pass as reviewing in some quarters these days (when reviews start to think of themselves primarily as journalists I worry).
Spectral Morn
07-08-2014, 18:20
Its HiFi choice ;)
Regards Neil
I actually like reading about ultra expensive audio, but I want to read a genuinely considered investigation not just the rephrasing of the manufacturers marketing blurb that seems to pass as reviewing in some quarters these days (when reviews start to think of themselves primarily as journalists I worry).
I do agree with your sentiments, but I have little interest in "ultra expensive audio", as in my experience, it's usually "ultra expensive" for all the wrong reasons!
Marco.
Spectral Morn
07-08-2014, 18:22
I actually like reading about ultra expensive audio, but I want to read a genuinely considered investigation not just the rephrasing of the manufacturers marketing blurb that seems to pass as reviewing in some quarters these days (when reviews start to think of themselves primarily as journalists I worry).
Well said I agree.
Regards Neil
Its HiFi choice ;)
Thought so! It had to be, simply because David Price would've largely been behind it.
Marco.
Spectral Morn
07-08-2014, 18:25
Thought so! It had to be, simply because David Price would've largely been behind it.
Marco.
Educated guess ;)
Regards Neil
I do agree with your sentiments, but I have little interest in "ultra expensive audio", as in my experience, it's usually "ultra expensive" for all the wrong reasons!
Marco.
Some is and some isn't. I've just been reading about the super expensive TechDAS turntable. However, it isn't just expense for the sake of it it's a very elaborate construction - it's interesting to read about designs that are trying to push the envelope.
Of course there are products that are largely expensive because of the company's marketing department (dozens of cable 'manufacturers' for example).
Some is and some isn't. I've just been reading about the super expensive TechDAS turntable. However, it isn't just expense for the sake of it it's a very elaborate construction - it's interesting to read about designs that are trying to push the envelope.
Sure, I get that, but I just don't see the point if its only affordable to a handful of the super-rich. What useful purpose does that serve for the majority of audio enthusiasts? Quite simply, it's elitist, and I abhor elitism in audio or in any other aspect of life.
I'm far more interested in helping folk, on a limited budget, and showing them how to obtain maximum SPPV from their systems. *That* is of real benefit for lots of genuine enthusiasts, which is why that principle is at the core of the AoS ethos. The magazines should embrace it more, too! Let's try and keep things REAL.
:exactly:
Marco.
Hi Mike,
On pfm, chris@panteg has just written the following, in reference to the original Technics bearing (and ‘aftermarket’ ones), obviously having been supplied with the information by Richard Peachey, of Vantage Audio:
One of the key aspects of the original design was to keep friction and noise as low as possible, secondly the original bearing has a brass tapered sleeve which mates with the centre boss of the platter, this interface between the bearing and platter is critical, so I'm told and one the key aspects of the SL1200mk2 performance.
At the design stage of the SL1200mk2, Matsushita himself was given the option of opting for a simpler one piece shaft for the bearing, being cheaper and easier to manufacture but degrading performance, Matsushita opted for the brass tapered sleeve.
Some of the aftermarket bearings on offer appear to have overlooked the importance of this interface, I wonder why ?
Would you care to answer that question and explain the valid reasons behind your own bearing design, specifically in reference to the omission of the brass tapered sleeve and your choice instead of using a one-piece shaft? Cheers! :)
Marco.
Mike_New
03-09-2014, 00:35
Hi Marco,
In reference to C Panteg's remarks else where:
For one who does not own one of my bearings and enjoyed the sonic improvements; but rather has constantly denied they are any good at all, I find it sadly amusing. Now after nearly 5 years he has found a reason (from others no doubt) to try to justify his observations. The mind boggles!!!!
Machining a solid shaft with a precision taper within very tight tolerances across production runs of many thousands is not easy, and is costly when rejects occur. ( I can tell you!!) Producing a separate taper piece from easy to machine soft brass is by far the more economical way to go. If they fall out of tolerance they can be binned at little cost. This is not to say the SL1200 (and other models) are cheaply produced they are not. Rather they are produced to a controlled production cost, which provides sufficient profit margins on sales, within the price range and market they were working in.
I know of a manufacturer in Canada who provides a TT with a solid carbide shaft of over 1 inch in Dia. And precision fitted to the bearing housing.
What people do not seem to grasp is the fact that the shaft can be supported by the bloody Tower-of-London (no pun intended) for all the real difference it would make. It is not the problem of the shaft moving up and down. But that it can rock/tilt backwards and forwards on the bottom support due to loose fitting of the shaft in the bearing housing. The platter is 150mm in radius; far larger than the very thin bearing shaft of the OEM unit which is about 6mm.
The slightest movement of the shaft sideways will translate to measurable vertical movement of the platter.
This is why, when I designed my Bearing, I aimed for the maximum shaft diameter, which the volumetric constraints of the motor assembly would permit.
I achieved a Bearing which is 13.5mm in diameter and with a running fit measured in microns. The closely honed bearing/shaft fit eliminates any vertical movement or vibration of the platter driven by the resonances generated by the playing of the record.
My ETP Platter further improves on this.
If you could make the bearing shaft the same diameter as the platter and about a foot long the problem would be largely reduced.
Many people in my opinion, spout a load of crap when they talk about diamond or sapphire supports in oil costing billions of dollars per litre.
You see it is far easier and much cheaper to put a lump of sapphire or whatever at the bottom of the bearing which sounds exotic, and the audio enthusiasts will buy it. It is a lot cheaper to do this than to adopt the very high precision fitting and polishing of the shaft which my toolmakers do.
It’s really the gold plated bird cage syndrome.
If Mr. Panteg would really like one of my Bearings, but cannot justify the cost, then perhaps we can persuade David or Marco to give him one.
ChrisKemp
03-09-2014, 05:59
Great answer Mike and I too learned something here!! And yes, the MN bearing is an upgrate to further improve SQ. After new year I'll get the ETP Platter also:)
Hi Mike,
Thanks for taking time to reply.
In reference to C Panteg's remarks else where: For one who does not own one of my bearings and enjoyed the sonic improvements; but rather has constantly denied they are any good at all, I find it sadly amusing. Now after nearly 5 years he has found a reason (from others no doubt) to try to justify his observations. The mind boggles!!!!
Indeed. One can only surmise why Chris insists on spouting this kind of stuff, and always from the relative ‘safety’ of pfm, where he knows that he won’t get any flack, simply because folk there either don’t care or have sufficient knowledge of the subject to challenge his ‘observations’! :doh:
Machining a solid shaft with a precision taper within very tight tolerances across production runs of many thousands is not easy, and is costly when rejects occur. ( I can tell you!!) Producing a separate taper piece from easy to machine soft brass is by far the more economical way to go. If they fall out of tolerance they can be binned at little cost. This is not to say the SL1200 (and other models) are cheaply produced they are not. Rather they are produced to a controlled production cost, which provides sufficient profit margins on sales, within the price range and market they were working in.
There we have the actual facts of the matter. The stock Technics bearing is absolutely fine, but it was built to a price, the same as everything else was on the T/T, and therefore has inherent design flaws, as does every other piece of audio equipment that has ever been made! That means, however, that with the appropriate skills and know-how, it can be improved.
Therefore, when those cost constraints are removed and a new bearing is designed from the ground up to address those flaws, and be mechanically superior (as is the case with yours), the results it produces are consequently superior. It’s as simple as that - and it’s about time some folk absorbed and accepted those facts, instead of spouting ill-informed nonsense, prompted by a competitor with his own commercial interests.
Many people in my opinion, spout a load of crap when they talk about diamond or sapphire supports in oil costing billions of dollars per litre.
You see it is far easier and much cheaper to put a lump of sapphire or whatever at the bottom of the bearing which sounds exotic, and the audio enthusiasts will buy it. It is a lot cheaper to do this than to adopt the very high precision fitting and polishing of the shaft which my toolmakers do.
It’s really the gold plated bird cage syndrome.
Indeed. The problem is that none of your competitors have the engineering skills and/or tooling necessary to produce their own bespoke bearings from scratch, so it stands to reason that all they can do is ‘tart up’ the original bearing and try and sell it to folk as the *only* way of upgrading it, or that their modifications are somehow ‘more sympathetic’ to the design of the original, when the reality is that they’re simply not in a position to fundamentally improve the design of the original bearing in the way that you can.
Therefore, some folk need to wake up and smell the coffee...!
If Mr. Panteg would really like one of my Bearings, but cannot justify the cost, then perhaps we can persuade David or Marco to give him one.
He’s most welcome to bring his T/T here and compare it with mine, where he will clearly hear what your bearing does, along with all the other modifications I’ve carried out to my T/T, but somehow I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon, as it’s far easier simply swallowing the words of your ‘guru’, which appease your own sensibilities, than embracing reality……….. ;)
Marco.
For once I agree with Dave Cawley, on pfm:
Is the "third party" a manufacturer of SL-1200 mods ? And or, is this just hearsay designed to discredit an Australian manufacturer ?
Mmm….. :whistle:
Marco.
JazzBones
03-09-2014, 10:56
For once I agree with Dave Cawley, on pfm:
Mmm….. :whistle:
Marco.
Before I joined the family of AoS I use to read and comment on Dave Cawley's Timestep forum, now defunct. On that said forum Chris P was an early and constant contributor and more or less devoted to Dave C's way with the SL12xx oft stating that he, Chris P, totally agreed and supported DC's 'HOLISTIC APPROACH' (laughable termology isn't it?) towards the modification of the SL12xx. DC loss favour with alot of people, including me for awhile, and his guru then became Richard of Vantage Audio as we are aware. Okay, a man has the right to jump ship and embrace a different religion, but me thinks dear old Chris P is, or can be, heavily swayed in his beliefs by a guru he later befriends and adopts said person's ideolgy for himself, hope he doesn't embrace HiFi Jihad towards me;):eyebrows:
I am totally aware of the 'bad blood' that existed did exist between Dave Cawley and Mike New, and others, thats for them to sort out, but I personally use both their products, Cawley's big bugger psu and Mike's bearing, PLatter Al/Cu, base plate in happy co-existent and to my satisfaction, should I be ostracised for this... I don't give a Hippo's balls, I'm only interested in what I want and what I enjoy?
Many have adopted the upgrades supported by AoS and those who have saved, scrimped towards these upgrades have invariably been happy and glad of the change.
Amen to all :)
Ron
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2014, 11:42
What's the story with Chris@panteg? He contributes here dosent he? How has he pissed so many people off? :scratch:
Stratmangler
03-09-2014, 11:47
What's the story with Chris@panteg? He contributes here dosent he? How has he pissed so many people off? :scratch:
As usual it's picking on specific points made and taking them out of the original context.
The thread that's causing all the fuss is here http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160688
I don't see what all the fuss is about :scratch:
Mike_New
03-09-2014, 13:04
Jeepers; I did not know that MAC made cup cakes!!
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2014, 14:29
As usual it's picking on specific points made and taking them out of the original context.
The thread that's causing all the fuss is here http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=160688
I don't see what all the fuss is about :scratch:
+1 nit picking, I cant be bothered with stuff like that, I'm off!
Off where, Andy, and for what reason? :scratch:
I think you're overreacting a little.
As usual it's picking on specific points made and taking them out of the original context.
I hope you're not referring to me, Chris. I've simply addressed some remarks chris@panteg has made on pfm about the MN bearing, which are rather misleading and far from factual. It certainly isn't nit picking.
Unfortunately Chris (@panteg) has a habit of doing this, when it comes to Technics T/T modifications he doesn't 'rate', even though he has no experience whatsoever of using them. It's that last part that I have a problem with.
He has a right of reply here, so if he wishes to comment on what I've written, then he is free to do so. I have no right of reply on pfm, which is why I'm tackling the issue here, in order to add some balance to the discussion and also allow Mike to have his say.
Marco.
Hi Ron,
Before I joined the family of AoS I use to read and comment on Dave Cawley's Timestep forum, now defunct. On that said forum Chris P was an early and constant contributor and more or less devoted to Dave C's way with the SL12xx oft stating that he, Chris P, totally agreed and supported DC's 'HOLISTIC APPROACH' (laughable termology isn't it?) towards the modification of the SL12xx. DC loss favour with alot of people, including me for awhile, and his guru then became Richard of Vantage Audio as we are aware. Okay, a man has the right to jump ship and embrace a different religion, but me thinks dear old Chris P is, or can be, heavily swayed in his beliefs by a guru he later befriends and adopts said person's ideolgy for himself...
Spot on, mate, unfortunately.... :rolleyes:
Furthermore, if you go back and read the first few pages of this thread, and examine Chris' comments on the MN bearing, when it was first being introduced, the dichotomy between his views there, and what they are now on the matter, is 'interesting' to say the least.....! ;)
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2014, 15:01
Off where, Andy, and for what reason? :scratch:
I think you're overreacting a little.
I hope you're not referring to me, Chris. I've simply addressed some remarks chris@panteg has made on pfm about the MN bearing, which are rather misleading and far from factual. It certainly isn't "nit picking'.
Unfortunately Chris has a habit of doing this, when it comes to Technics T/T modifications he doesn't 'rate', even though he has no experience of using them. It's that last part that I have a problem with. He has a right of reply here, so if he wishes to comment on what I've written, then he is free to do so.
I have no right of reply on pfm, which is why I'm tackling the issue here, in order to add some balance to the discussion and also allow Mike to have his say.
Marco.
No not going anywhere, just leaving this topic. I can't be bothered with threads like this, I'm saving my energies for positive threads like the new KAB mod that you listed.
No worries. When you said "I'm off", I thought you were leaving the forum.
I'm disappointed you think that this thread isn't 'positive'. I think it's important that people (anyone - I don't care who it is) who make incorrect statements about audio equipment are challenged and the facts highlighted instead, along with genuine experienced input given from those who own and use said equipment.
Or have we simply to sit back and allow such misleading information to be perpetrated as fact?
Marco.
Wakefield Turntables
03-09-2014, 15:12
No worries. When you said "I'm off", I thought you were leaving the forum.
I'm disappointed you think that this thread isn't 'positive'. I think it's important that people (anyone - I don't care who it is) who make incorrect statements about audio equipment are challenged and the facts highlighted instead, along with genuine experienced input given from those who own and use said equipment.
Or have we simply to sit back and allow such misleading information to be perpetrated as fact?
Marco.
Lol! I'll let you fight the gallant fight, I just feel a little jaded and long in the tooth with regards to what other people think or say. I know my 1210 was transformed when I started using Mikes bearing I couldn't care what other people say with regard mikes design or work, I know it works perfectly well.
Indeed, and I don't disagree. However, I have to look at it, not from a personal point of view, but from the position that AoS members (many of whom also read the discussions on pfm) are supplied with factual information on Technics T/T modifications, and not mislead by completely incorrect statements of dubious intent.
Marco.
Mike_New
03-09-2014, 22:35
Hi Folks,
It is no use getting all our knickers in a knot over a post/posts on another forum by someone who perhaps is pushing his own agenda. I guess Mr. Panteg has his own reasons for suddenly renewing is efforts in going after my Bearing or others.
I guess he will soon find a number of reasons for why my ETP platter cannot work either.
His comments on this forum have often given me reason to spill my wine with amusement, but I have always chosen not become involved.
I have now sold over 200 Bearings and customers now seem to be on the increase again, so I must be doing something right.
I suspect Mike, you are right not to be drawn in to unnecessary defence. Your bearing design principles were well laid out in advance to all of us who chose to buy it. The design principles certainly made sense to me at the time and I parted with my well earned. With 4 years experience of it now, I've certainly no regrets as I'm ever happy to state. However Marco is right in that the old saying 'throw enough mud and some of it will stick' applies. Repeat something often enough and it tends to become fact so sometimes refuting is necessary. After all, we all know that the Techy is only a DJ deck and can never pretend to be true hifi!:)
I actually have a problem with the Mike New Bearing.
I'm an engineer by trade, so I appreciate things that are well engineered.
My problem is that once installed, I can no longer see the bearing.
It's really well engineered and finished. It makes the original bearing look flimsy.
Yes, it's relatively expensive but you won't ever have to replace it.
I had to laugh about the brass taper and two piece shaft comments on the other thread.
There is no play between my Mike New Bearing and Mk1 Funk platter. In fact, it's such a good fit that is needs a dab of grease/Vaseline to make sure you can remove the platter if you ever needed to.
However Marco is right in that the old saying 'throw enough mud and some of it will stick' applies. Repeat something often enough and it tends to become fact so sometimes refuting is necessary.
Precisely!
Marco.
Mike_New
04-09-2014, 06:40
This must be some kind of a record, there are now almost 100 pages to this thread.
Wakefield Turntables
04-09-2014, 08:28
Mike,
Good products stand the test of time. Mine certainly has I must have put many thousands of hours on my bearing.
Andy
Mike_New
04-09-2014, 09:44
Hi Folks,
After all this sudden talk about my Bearing, I must state that I have had to reluctantly increase the price to $685.00 posted from Australia.
This has been occasioned by the increase of both materials and labour over the last 5 years since I set the price.
Maching Brass has increased by about 15% (the cost of Copper!!)
Remember that David of MRCU distributes my Bearing in Europe Please support him.
I had to laugh about the brass taper and two piece shaft comments on the other thread.
There is no play between my Mike New Bearing and Mk1 Funk platter. In fact, it's such a good fit that is needs a dab of grease/Vaseline to make sure you can remove the platter if you ever needed to.
It's all bollocks, Kevin, spouted by folk who've never used one, and so, quite simply, are in no position to comment on its efficacy.
The problem you have is that for some people it's easier to believe that the MN bearing isn't any better (or is actually worse) than the stock Technics one, because a) that mindset saves them money and b) avoids potentially facing up to the fact that their T/T, fitted with a stock bearing, is significantly hindered in terms of being able to reveal its full potential.
Little wonder then why it's far easier sticking their heads in the sand and accepting 'proof' that simply supports what they want to believe! ;)
Marco.
JazzBones
04-09-2014, 10:17
Mike,
Good products stand the test of time. Mine certainly has I must have put many thousands of hours on my bearing.
Andy
Me too Andy, glad to see you're still with this thread as it is very relevant. I'm on record as being a very early adopter of the MN bearing and that very same bearing is still running effeciently and very fit for purpose today, four years down the line, sheer good luck or sound engineering? In some of my very early posts I said, much to the boredom and disinterest of some I would imagine, that when I first got the bearing installed I bench tested, non stop rotation, for nearly two weeks to see if it would destruct or leak, as had been mentioned to discredit said MN bearing. The test used two platters, not at the same time, first the stock one, then loaded with a copper sub platter and heavy weight record clamp (450g) in tandem. I then switched to the MN Cu/Al platter with same record clamp. I was testing both my SL1210Mk2 and the bearing, not for science reason but for some satisfaction about longevity of a product I bought and for peace of mind. Today that very same MN bearing and MN Cu/Al platter plus a lighter record weight (350g) with no sign of rumble, grumble or bumble, is still giving me the music enjoyment I crave. Being retired I have prolonged listening sheshs, duration 5 to 6 hours with breaks for coffee or a beer, and the platter is left spinning all the time during these 5 to 6 hours. From my experiences there is no way I would discredit this bearing or workmanship, true its pricey but well worth the money, equal to cost of a good MC cartridge that no one has a winge about.
Sometimes when people want something but can't immediately afford it then a certain mindset takes over to the warped outburst of, ' I can't have one so its crap and I want to instill in others that its crap and they won't be tempted to buy it like me, because I can't have one, Wahhhh!', spitting the dummy out of the pram?
I make I do without something, ie, a holiday, to shift money towards audio needs and I most certainly don't have a fat stuffed wallet or a sack of gold coins to feed my needs and adiction.
Adendum: I do like the toned down, mellowed out, reasoned Marco of late. Shows what happens when you turn 50 or Del is ghost writing for him :D?
Sometimes when people want something but can't immediately afford it then a certain mindset takes over to the warped outburst of, ' I can't have one so its crap and I want to instill in others that its crap and they won't be tempted to buy it like me, because I can't have one Wahhhh!', spitting the dummy out of the pram?
Nail > head, amigo!!
:exactly:
So let's hope that open-minded folks don't fall for it.
I do like the toned down, mellowed out, reasoned Marco of late. Shows what happens when you turn 50 or Del is ghost writing for him :D?
Heh-heh, I've only just turned 49, sweet-cheeks, so you've still got plenty of time to save up for that big five-0 party you're throwing for me!
Marco.
prestonchipfryer
04-09-2014, 10:36
Have to agree with Ron (Jazzbones). Been running my MN bearing for four years now and am more than satisfied. Used every day when I'm here at home, so has done several hundred hours by now.
To try and discredit the MN bearing just shows how juvenile some people can be. Pathetic IMO.
Has anyone stopped to consider that this may be the meanderings of a chap who perhaps lays some of the blame for the failure of his business at the door of AoS? I will not defend Richard if this turns out to be the case as there were clearly other factors in play, not least of which was his lackadaisical approach to returning customers items, however we do need to be measured in our responses.
Vantage gave those with less disposable income a route into the Techie upgrade market which otherwise would have been prohibitively expensive. Competition is good because it encourages innovation and offers the customer a choice, which is doubly important in a market this small. If Richard is planning to re-launch Vantage my advice would be that he concentrate on the positives moving forward and as a matter of urgency, put right the wrongs which contributed to the collapse of the original concern.
Hi Dave,
Has anyone stopped to consider that this may be the meanderings of a chap who perhaps lays some of the blame for the failure of his business at the door of AoS?
I fail to see how he could consider that to be the case.
Up until Richard's business collapsed and he started his shenanigans of holding onto people's equipment (which should've been modified as agreed), in some cases for more than a year, seemingly because he was unwilling to make a proper effort to return it, and so instead appeared to take the decision to hide, hoping that it would all go away, Vantage Audio Technics modifications were actively endorsed and promoted here, and as such Richard would've made numerous sales.
If he's now annoyed because some of his disgruntled customers complained here, by highlighting their displeasure, which no doubt would've generated him some bad publicity, then I'm afraid that's his fault for behaving the way he did!
If we receive evidence that Richard has returned all, or at least the majority of the kit outstanding to his customers, and has apologised to them for his misdemeanours, and that he wants to start again with a clean slate, then AoS and its members will support him and wish him all the best.
Therefore, it's in HIS interests to do the right thing and stop filling the heads of impressionable people like Chris with completely false 'facts' about bearings, apparently to discredit the products of a major competitor. It's as simple as that.
If there's one thing in business that will almost certainly backfire on you, big-time, it's rubbishing the competition!
Marco.
Erm, I think I said most of that in my post, although in not so many words... Note the operative word 'may' in the first sentence...
Sure. I was simply pointing out that if you are right, then he has no valid justification for feeling that way, and should simply accept responsibility for his behaviour and the situation that he currently occupies. The fact is, it's no-one else's fault but his own.
However, all he seems to be doing at the moment is shooting himself in the foot!
Marco.
Agreed. There is a place for his products in the market place and plenty of potential for development, he just needs to stop overstepping his boundaries by taking on more work than he can cope with.
I may be mistaken but I think Chris has pointed out already on PFM that these comments re the MN bearing were made to him quite a long time ago now when Vantage was actually active and trading.
Mike_New
04-09-2014, 12:44
I may be mistaken but I think Chris has pointed out already on PFM that these comments re the MN bearing were made to him quite a long time ago now when Vantage was actually active and trading.
Then why ....... would he want to regurgitate all this rubbish now???? I guess I realy feel sorry for him.
As I write this I am enjoying an excellent bottle of red and listening to Beethoven's Pastoral, Deutsche Grammophon, Herbert von Karajan
and I think to myself why would anyone waste their time listening to CDs
Then why ....... would he want to regurgitate all this rubbish now????
Indeed... It smacks of an agenda.
Marco.
Stratmangler
05-09-2014, 09:18
Jeepers; I did not know that MAC made cup cakes!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muffin_Man_%28song%29
ptoN-5QE0Lw
Mike_New
10-09-2014, 08:18
Hi Folks,
This is totally off topic, but I have gone and bought a boat. I have always had an interest in them but have never done anything about it untill now. Its a 6M Moterey for taking the grand kids about in, should be fun.
Audio Al
10-09-2014, 11:22
Hi Folks,
This is totally off topic, but I have gone and bought a boat. I have always had an interest in them but have never done anything about it untill now. Its a 6M Moterey for taking the grand kids about in, should be fun.
:worthless:
Mike_New
10-09-2014, 11:43
is this any good
http://www.montereyboats.com/boats/sport-boats/
Audio Al
10-09-2014, 11:53
is this any good
http://www.montereyboats.com/boats/sport-boats/
No , Its just the dealer web site
We need your boat :D
I own 2 boats , A 21 foot yacht and a Hardy fishing 20 with a 100hp Yamaha 4 stroke outboard
13157
and
http://fafbthumbs3.s3.amazonaws.com/medium640/4ee3daa3-6d58-45df-838f-68fd42275891_medium640.jpg
Mike_New
10-09-2014, 22:44
I will take some pics this weekend when we take it for a performance test drive, it is powered by a Penta 280HP 5Lt V8
I own 2 boats , A 21 foot yacht and a Hardy fishing 20 with a 100hp Yamaha 4 stroke outboard
13157
and
http://fafbthumbs3.s3.amazonaws.com/medium640/4ee3daa3-6d58-45df-838f-68fd42275891_medium640.jpg
Yesh, but the pics are deceiving… The boats are plastic, and only float in your bath, along with your rubber ring! :D
Marco.
Reminds me a bit of 'Tugger' from Russell Crowe's 'Fighting Round The World'
Mike_New
18-09-2014, 04:01
Come on folks I have got 5 bearings left for sale from here and I have just sent 5 more to Dave.
Get one before winter sets in!!!
Come on folks I have got 5 bearings left for sale from here and I have just sent 5 more to Dave.
Get one before winter sets in!!!
Special offer at the show this weekend on Mikes Bearing, save on postage and get a deal. :)
Come on folks I have got 5 bearings left for sale from here and I have just sent 5 more to Dave.
Get one before winter sets in!!!
Hi Mike,
I've tried e-mailing you a couple of times through your website, regarding a bearing, plate and platter mat, but haven't heard anything back - perhaps they haven't go through,or you are on holiday, but can you confirm if you've received the enquiry?
Thanks,
Gareth
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