Dave Cawley's Laws of Hi Fi

[Dave Cawley]

Guys, I'm posting this here to establish a date/time-line of when I said this. They are my views and we can discuss them if you like, or not if you don't!!

Dave Cawley's First Law on Hi Fi
Measurement and how it sounds.

(a) "if it measures well and sounds good, then it is good"

(b) "if it measures poorly and sounds poor then it is bad"

(c) "if it measures poorly and sounds good, then it could be improved" and

(d) "if it measures well but sounds poor then it is bad"


Dave Cawley's Second Law on Hi Fi
The design and components used.

(1) A good design using good components will sound good

(2) A good design using poor components will sound OK but could be improved

(3) A poor design using good components will sound poor

(4) A poor design using poor components will sound poor


Dave Cawley's Third Law on Hi Fi
A Hi Fi system should be carefully selected using an holistic approach and assembled from components :-

(i) That match each other and work harmoniously together

(ii) That match the room they are going to be used in

(iii) That match the music and the sound the owner likes

(iv) If the above is achieved then the holistic system will sound "greater than the sum of its parts". If not, it is likely to sound "less than the sum of its parts".

[Themis]

Excellent ! :clap:

[The Vinyl Adventure]

I'm not sure there is any argument against that at all!!!

[REM]

Once heard it said that if it sounds good but measures bad, you've measured the wrong thing and if it sounds bad but measures good, you've measured the wrong thing;).

[bigmarty]

I need another glass of red wine :scratch:


Marty:lol:

[Primalsea]

It all seems sensible to me, but define what Measures Poor and Measures Well are?

[Marco]

I can't particularly fault any those statements either, Dave... What prompted this, then? :)

Marco.

[Jonboy]

That all sounds logical Dave, i can follow that:)

[DSJR]

Dave, you know I agree (from a post elsewhere), but I still think the room is the final arbiter. If you have a bad room, then it will either take a *bodged to suit* kind of setup to work at all, but if you have a good room, it don't arf make life easier, both to choose the gear in the first place and also enjoy the music it reproduces.

[Marco]

Amen to that, daddy-o! :)

Marco.

[Dave Cawley]

Hi Marco

Why did I write this?

For two reasons. The first, was so that the Laws would be attributed to me, and I posted them on three forums. The second, that it is the precursor to an article about specific and different sorts of designs. One of the things that amuses me, is that on some forums you can take a badly designed product, change the components and suddenly it is good, with never a thought about the basic design.

What is interesting is the polarised response on the different forums. In the main the professionals and experienced subjectives have mostly agreed wholly with me. However a few inexperienced people have tried to look big by disagreeing and asking delivery unanswerable questions. Funny old world.

Part two to follow in a few weeks!

Regards

Dave

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

No worries - sounds interesting! :)

Basically, I'm 'source-first' kind of chap, so in terms of what you're referring to here, the excellence of the basic equipment design will always be paramount to that of the components used within it.

I don't believe in 'window-dressing', so no amount of 'fancy' components will make up for an intrinsically poor design.

This is why your modifications to the SL-1200 are so successful, because the basic design of the turntable (and engineering of it) is superb to start with, so upgrading its component parts, holistically, ensures that one ends up with something truly special....

That's how I see it.

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Dave Cawley's Third Law on Hi Fi
A Hi Fi system should be carefully selected using an holistic approach and assembled from components :-


(iii) That match the music and the sound the owner likes



I agree with all of Dave Cawley's laws except this part. I do not believe that any hi-fi system should be tailored specifically to flatter any given musical genre. To do so is not to do any genre justice and is more likely to deliver a caricature of that style of music. Systems that both measure well and sound good will do justice to all music and perhaps allow the listener to expand his/her listening horizons.

For sure certain SET amps into fairly insensitive speakers may still perform brilliantly when a handful of single-miked musicians are playing, but rock, dance or a full-scale orchestra are going to be found wanting. Apart from that, I do not believe you can tailor a system to any given music genre although you can tailor the sound to the ears of the listener regardless of music genre.

[REM]

Dave, you know I agree (from a post elsewhere), but I still think the room is the final arbiter. If you have a bad room, then it will either take a *bodged to suit* kind of setup to work at all, but if you have a good room, it don't arf make life easier, both to choose the gear in the first place and also enjoy the music it reproduces.

This is from an interview with Steve Hoffman on Mono & Stereo:-

"MI: How important are room acoustics in reproduction. Most people cannot afford to change their homes into only listening rooms. Does this spoil the fun?

SH: No, I don’t feel that is important. Any room will do!"

The full interview is HERE (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2008/02/interview-with-steve-hoffman-matej-isak.html). Some interesting stuff.

Cheers:cool:

[Dave Cawley]

(iii) That match the music and the sound the owner likes


For sure certain SET amps into fairly insensitive speakers may still perform brilliantly when a handful of single-miked musicians are playing, but rock, dance or a full-scale orchestra are going to be found wanting.

My point exactly!

[Marco]

Hi Ralph,

Thanks for posting the link. I'm not sure that I can be arsed though reading the full interview...


SH: No, I don’t feel that is important. Any room will do!"


If one were to add the word "good" before "room" in his last sentence, then I agree - otherwise, no.

One can of course make a bad room better by employing various corrective measures (i.e. by introducing a compromise); however it's no substitute for having a good room to use in the first place and thus eliminating any compromises! It's that 'Source first' philosophy again! ;)

Steve,


I do not believe that any hi-fi system should be tailored specifically to flatter any given musical genre.


Yup - unless of course you only ever listen to one specific musical genre. Someone, for example, who listens solely to classical music is entitled to talior his or her system to reproduce that genre of music in such a way which satisfies him or her most :)

Marco.

[Steve Toy]

Yup - unless of course you only ever listen to one specific musical genre. Someone, for example, who listens solely to classical music is entitled to talior his or her system to reproduce that genre of music in such a way which satisfies him or her most


...but it's still going to caricature that style of music and make it sound perhaps overly smooth when classical music isn't necessarily supposed to sound overly smooth all of the time.

In any case, what gives you instrumental separation will also give you better dynamics etc.

[Steve Toy]

SH: No, I don’t feel that is important. Any room will do!"



Indeed. A system which communicates the musical message well will be more forgiving of a relatively poor room.

[DSJR]

This is from an interview with Steve Hoffman on Mono & Stereo:-

"MI: How important are room acoustics in reproduction. Most people cannot afford to change their homes into only listening rooms. Does this spoil the fun?

SH: No, I don’t feel that is important. Any room will do!"

The full interview is HERE (http://www.monoandstereo.com/2008/02/interview-with-steve-hoffman-matej-isak.html). Some interesting stuff.

Cheers:cool:

All of my comments (right or wrong) mostly come from personal experience. I've set up too many systems in boomy concrete boxes (or Kans in bass light rooms) to agree with the comment posted above I'm afraid.

A good room makes things SO much easier and in one professionally treated one, the difference between a amallish low-budget speaker and a pro grade active monitor were very small indeed and much smaller than I subsequently heard in our dem room..

I do appreciate that HiFi is a fun thing (separate from listening to music, which is a different thing altogether IMO), but so much of it seems to be tailoring the system to suit a cr@p room and I just find this too much hard work...

[Marco]

Steve,


...but it's still going to caricature that style of music and make it sound perhaps overly smooth when classical music isn't necessarily supposed to sound overly smooth all of the time.

In any case, what gives you instrumental separation will also give you better dynamics etc.

I understand where you're coming from, but don't fully agree. There are aspects of faithfully reproducing classical music, for example, which only certain types of equipment can successfully resolve.

In saying that, however, I believe that any system which handles the demands of classical music effectively will likely be able to reproduce all other genres with similar aplomb.


A system which communicates the musical message well will be more forgiving of a relatively poor room.


Not if the musical message is eroded to the point of almost non-existence by the detrimental effect of very poor acoustics and/or speaker/room interaction. The latter, I'm afraid, for the above reason, will always ultimately have much more influence on the musical message than any equipment.

Quite simply, there's not much point in a system excelling at portraying the musical message for it to be obliterated further down the chain by the effects of a bad room and/or poor speaker/room interaction.

That's not to say though that I don't agree in essence with that you're saying; just that it's not quite as simple as that, and that there is no one universal solution for all circumstances :)

As usual the best solution of all is to eradicate any problems at source - and in this instance, that means finding a good room to use in the first place!

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


I do appreciate that HiFi is a fun thing (separate from listening to music, which is a different thing altogether IMO), but so much of it seems to be tailoring the system to suit a cr@p room and I just find this too much hard work...


I agree very much with the bit in bold, but strongly disagree with the bit in brackets in italics.

I love hi-fi and music (my system and somewhat diverse music collection are testament to this), and so don't feel at all that the two are mutually exclusive. I'm sure that many people on this forum would also agree! ;)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Well, from my point of view, I have two relevant needs at the moment. the first is a severe need for regular music listening, which I can almost do on anything nowadays.. the second need is to feed my lifelong audio hobby. If I hear some favourite music on a cheapo trannie, I can still enjoy it, although playing same music on a decent stereo gives greater enjoyment.

For myself, I should really be one of AVI's ADM9.1 clients and I'm sure my wife and I would be delighted with their good sound and fairly small size. the problem I would have with these (and also when I had the two different ATC actives) is not the fact that I'd want to tweak them, but the fact that it's all done for you. You just plonk 'em down, plug in, switch on and off you go.. Now I'm no longer in the industry it's just not enough at home.

I want to play with the gear. I can't afford new stuff, so I'm messing around with vintage equipment. I just changed the line valves in the Croft preamp "back" to Brimar CV4003's from Sylvania JAN 5814A's, which I like, but change the sound too much (far bigger difference than cables or boutique bits).

No, I have music AND HiFi needs and both service each other. Apologies once again for the clumsy description above.

[Themis]

the problem I would have with these (and also when I had the two different ATC actives) is not the fact that I'd want to tweak them, but the fact that it's all done for you. You just plonk 'em down, plug in, switch on and off you go..
I understand exactly what you mean. ;)

[DSJR]

When I was working in the shop it didn't matter. When I got home I didn't want to play with the HiFi. At the moment it's different. I LIKE messing about with wires and valves and cartridges...

[Marco]

Ok, I know what to get for your Christmas next year! :lol:

Marco.

[DSJR]

You cheeky monkey you..........