Enlighten me....

[MarginWalker]

I have been very happy for quite a while now with my Rega Brio r, but perhaps unsurprisingly the upgrade itch has re-surfaced. As I have only ever had solid state integrated amps I have become curious about the benefits of separate pre and power amps, as well as tube amps. Is there a massive benefit to be had and heard, and if so what is it? If I do decide to go down this route am I better going for a passive or active pre and what are the benefits of each?

Many thanks,
Phil

[karma67]

in my case the phono stage in my pre amp was vastly superior to the one in my amp,in fact thats the only reason i bought it.

[Bigman80]

I have been very happy for quite a while now with my Rega Brio r, but perhaps unsurprisingly the upgrade itch has re-surfaced. As I have only ever had solid state integrated amps I have become curious about the benefits of separate pre and power amps, as well as tube amps. Is there a massive benefit to be had and heard, and if so what is it? If I do decide to go down this route am I better going for a passive or active pre and what are the benefits of each?

Many thanks,
Phil
I have always had SS amps and recently took the jump to a passive pre and Monoblocks. Its the best move ive made

Separation, soundstage, detail, well everything really has improved, not by a bit but a good margin.

Listen to as many systems as you can before you do anything

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[struth]

Depends on what you like really. Both can be great and not so great depending. integrated's can be excellent too. The rega has an above adequete phono stage but can be bettered for not too much money. If you are vinyl orientated I would get an external stage for now and class that as your first upgrade. If you decide to change to seperates later it will still be a valid purchase.

[oldius]

There was always a thought that separate pre power was where you should go at a certain price point. I'm listening now to my Lentek amp into my Yamaha NS1000M and there clearly is no fundamental reason that pre power is definitively superior. Trust your ears.

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[hifinutt]

one of the main things with pre power is the ability to experiment . I am surrounded currently by 4 wonderful pre amps . all so different and great fun to try [ modwright dm , modwright anniversary 9.0, grandinote proemio and velleman 3020] .

tubes are most certainly not superior to ss imho so don`t be led astray by that idea .

that said there are so many superb integrated from luxman [mcru has a beauty if you feel tempted] , leben , musical fidelity and grandinote and modwright . there is no actual need to go pre power

[Arkless Electronics]

There's no benefit in principle from having separate pre and power amps... but in practice most manufacturers save their best designs for their separate pre and power models. Historically, valve power amps were big, hot and heavy and back in the day were designed to be placed out of site, often in the base of a console which held all the equipment. The small. light and only warm pre could then be fitted flush to the teak console where it controlled everything... hence its other name of control amp.
Separates do of course also bring the advantage that you can pick and choose the pre and power you wish to put together rather than both being set in stone in an integrated.

As to SS V valve and active V passive well how long is a piece of string, how many opinions do you want and did you book the 15 minute argument or the full half hour? :D

A separate phono stage is something I can help you with but I don't think you mentioned whether you use vinyl or not...

[MarginWalker]

Thanks for all the replies, i am still intrigued by the separate power/pre combination as I have always seen it as the passive hifi set-up, but I think it is more curiosity than anything else that is driving it. I would say I listen to records about 70% of the time with the rest of my listening through a Spotify/chromecast/beresford Bushmaster, and the main reason I bought the Rega was to have an amp with a decent phono stage built in, but I guess my next logical step is an upgrade to that phono stage. Does an upgrade in this area really make that much of a difference and what sort of stage do I need to be looking at to better the Rega?

[Firebottle]

Hi Phil,

Bigbird of this parish has compared a few phono stages to his Brio R, here's his posting particularly about my new OTP phono stage:

'First spin was Pink Floyds 'division bell'.. i always go to Floyd or dire straits to test equipment as the sound quality is spot on so I get a good gauge.
Right away it sounds open and airy and my worries about trading in my Slee for a box half the price drift away.
i moved onto massive attacks mezzanine... there's a percussion instrument on the beginning of the first track that me and my missus always noticed on the Slee as it sounds like someone is tapping a piece of wood next to our ears when we listened, this was slightly more in the background to what i remembered with the Slee as it wasn't so prominent ....still there but not quite as snappy.
When the track kicked in it was clear that the OTP had bags of bass, something I always thought the Slee was slightly lacking. it was deep and crisp and very exiting... I've had to put the bungs back in the speakers in case the neighbour gives me a bollocking in my first week haha.
Next up was Little Milton ,grits aint groceries lp! the soundstage really came through on this. we both agreed that it sounded like he was sat playing at the end of the room or in a smoky bar somewhere .it sounded really live. the guitar was sleazy and snarling and the vocals had a touch of echo like it was recorded in a large room.
In comparison to the rega brio stage I was back to using whilst I waited for this to arrive,well,it blows it out of the water...or 'out the park' I should say!
Much better in every single way and the Brio stage is highly regarded for an integrated.
As for the graham slee i sold to make way for this purchase..it was a much closer call! very similar in many ways..good soundstage ,great detail and clarity.... the OTP has it on the bass front for sure and is slightly more open, the slee just nicked it for separation but its very close?? but without them side by side its hard to say as i was only going from memory.
Overall this is a fantastic piece of kit... at 225 quid(half the price of the slee) its an absolute bargain...it offers everything it had and a little bit more.
I listened to a few phonos in the sub 300 bracket(rega,project,cambridge) before i went for the slee and this beats all 3 for my tastes.
i rekon you'd be hard pushed to find a better phono anywhere at that price point...its that good!! ... for the meantime Well done Alan and thanks for an absolute bargain buy!'

Cheers,
Alan

[Bigman80]

I can confirm this is a superb phono stage. It makes a mockery of the price (£225) and I love mine. Can NOT get better for smart money IMO. There are a couple of videos on YouTube. Just search FB-OTP and it will come up. Not a perfect snapshot but good enough.

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[oldius]

My advice would be that a better amplifier will give a better result than simply an improved phono stage. Though hard to find, high end vintage amplifiers were based on their phono stages as that was the only real source. My Denon PMA850 and the Lentek integrated both contain superb phono stages. They were both more than £700 in the 1970's though so genuinely high end.

[struth]

Indeed I recently tried the phono stage on my pioneer a8100 and it was excellent I have to say. surprised me a bit. Trouble is its got a fault after a while so needs fixing to be used that way, and Im not gonna try. not really well enough. shame but it works as a amp well too. These things were very well specced

[Arkless Electronics]

Thanks for all the replies, i am still intrigued by the separate power/pre combination as I have always seen it as the passive hifi set-up, but I think it is more curiosity than anything else that is driving it. I would say I listen to records about 70% of the time with the rest of my listening through a Spotify/chromecast/beresford Bushmaster, and the main reason I bought the Rega was to have an amp with a decent phono stage built in, but I guess my next logical step is an upgrade to that phono stage. Does an upgrade in this area really make that much of a difference and what sort of stage do I need to be looking at to better the Rega?


Well I will of course say (and with quite some justification) that my Arkless 640P at £225 (plus a donor unit you need to supply) is probably the best budget phono stage out there. There is a demo unit doing the rounds at the moment and you are welcome to try it, thread here http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?49403-Arkless-640P-MC-MM-phono-loan-list
There are many other threads on this unit on various forums and you will find loads of reviews V's much more expensive units on PFM. Some prefer it to £1K+ units!
It easily beats all the well known £3-500 "best buy" units, as some time searching for reviews will soon confirm ;)

[RothwellAudio]

I am still intrigued by the separate power/pre combination as I have always seen it as the passive hifi set-up

Erm...I'm not even sure what that means. :scratch: Is that what you meant to say?

[struth]

Possibly meant perfect?.

[RothwellAudio]

That would make more sense.

[MarginWalker]

Sorry, not sure what was going through my mind then - i meant to say that i had always thought that passive+pre made for the perfect hi-fi set up, as Struth said. I think perhaps my best course of action is to try out a couple of the phono stage loan units offered on here to see what difference that makes. Thanks for all the input everyone.

[Arkless Electronics]

Sorry, not sure what was going through my mind then - i meant to say that i had always thought that passive+pre made for the perfect hi-fi set up, as Struth said. I think perhaps my best course of action is to try out a couple of the phono stage loan units offered on here to see what difference that makes. Thanks for all the input everyone.

I presume you mean passive and power amp?

[MarginWalker]

I presume you mean passive and power amp?

Sigh, yes that's what i meant. My brain is in neutral today, I'm afraid.