Tonearm, Cart, Headshell matching

[RobbieGong]

I dont know much about tonearm cart headshell matching.

So, my question is, on paper what does the following equate to ie: good, bad, should be ok

Tonearm = medium mass I believe

Cart = 10.7g

Headshell = 16.8g

Thanks

[Stryder5]

I dont know much about tonearm cart headshell matching.

So, my question is, on paper what does the following equate to ie: good, bad, should be ok

Tonearm = medium mass I believe

Cart = 10.7g

Headshell = 16.8g

Thanks

Hi, try this it may help.

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=13&submit=Submit

[RobbieGong]

Hi, try this it may help.

https://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator.php?eff_mass=13&submit=Submit

Hi Gary, What do the figures on the left represent ? sorry if i'm being thick also dont know the effective mass as never found anything online / published so can only guess.

[Stryder5]

Hi Gary, What do the figures on the left represent ? sorry if i'm being thick also dont know the effective mass as never found anything online / published so can only guess.

The figures on the left are the resonance figures published by the cartridge manufacturer.

If you have a medium effective mass tonearm this is generally defined as 12-25gm's IIRC.

If you enter say 14 in the effective mass calc box, along the top is your cartridge and headshell weight, you should look for green boxes as optimum, it's only a guide tho.

[Stryder5]

Found this if it's any use?


https://www.vinylengine.com/tonearm_database.php

[RobbieGong]

Thanks Garry, non the wiser really though. The cartridge and mounting hardware total mass only goes up to 15g.
I'm already looking at over 27g for cart and headshell combined.

I'll give it a try come the time I'm ready to fit the cart. I have the additional tonearm weight if necessary.

[Stryder5]

Thanks Garry, non the wiser really though. The cartridge and mounting hardware total mass only goes up to 15g.
I'm already looking at over 27g for cart and headshell combined.

I'll give it a try come the time I'm ready to fit the cart. I have the additional tonearm weight if necessary.

If the cart is a Denon 103 Marco has in depth knowledge of this I believe.

[RobbieGong]

If the cart is a Denon 103 Marco has in depth knowledge of this I believe.

No, I'm an Ortofon man :)

[Barry]

What arm are you using Robert? Is the headshell, whose mass you quote, the same headshell that comes with the arm?

One last question: what is the cartridge you are using?

If you can supply this information, I will be able to advise you.

Barry

[RobbieGong]

What arm are you using Robert? Is the headshell, whose mass you quote, the same headshell that comes with the arm?

One last question: what is the cartridge you are using?

If you can supply this information, I will be able to advise you.

Barry


Hi Barry,

Micro Seiki Ma-202 Tonearm

Looking to use a 16.8g Headshell

Ortofon Cadenza Black moving coil cartridge

[Barry]

What is the weight of the Micro Sieki headshell?

[RobbieGong]

What is the weight of the Micro Sieki headshell?
The original headshell is 10g. It's nice and I have it but I fancy the 16g Ortofon.

[Barry]

Try as I might (and I have spent the last hour searching the net), I cannot find a value for the effective mass of the MA-202 arm. However the MA-505 looks similar (it has the same geometry) and it has an effective mass (without headshell) of 7g. It is a significant approximation to assume a similar figure for your MA-202, since I don't know if the arm tubes are made of the same material - but it is all we can go on.

The Ortofon Cadenza Black has a mass of 10.7g and a dynamic compliance of 16.10-6 cm/dyne (the latter figure is assumed to be valid at ~ 10Hz).

So the total effective mass as seen by the stylus/cantilever is: 10.7g (the mass of the cartridge) + 16.8g (the mass of the headshell) + 7g (the assumed effective mass of the arm) = 34.5g.

Thus the calculated low frequency of the arm/cartridge combination is:

1/(2*pi*sqrt(34.5*16.10-6)) = 6.77Hz.

Ideally this figure should lay somewhere in the range 8 - 15Hz, so it would appear to be too low, suggesting the whole turntable/arm/cartridge could be susceptable to problems unless it is well isolated.

However this is a calculated result, and in doing the calculation I have had to make some significant approximations and assumptions.

So, (and this might seem like a bit of a cop out) I suggest you simply try it out with the heavier headshell. If you didn't have any problems with the original headshell (with which the caculated LF resonance is still a low 7.6Hz), the new combination will make little difference.

[RobbieGong]

Many thanks Barry for all your effort - very decent of you and much appreciated.

I've not had the pleasure of trying the Cadenza with any headshell yet as my deck awaits it's final upgrades.

I'll try the headshell as you suggest though as It's a very good non resonant one so hopefully it will work / sound good - can only try.

By the way - A big prize to any one who can find the effective mass of the Micro Seiki MA-202 which to date I have never found anyone who has - neither internet or forum :scratch:

[kcc123]

I don't think the Micro Seiki MA202 is a heavy mass arm (like the Fidelity Research FR64) as My MA505S has an effective mass of only 14-15 grams with its original 10g. HS-202 headshell(Hi-Fi Choice No24 - reviewed by Martin Colloms). I assume if they were similar, the MA202 would have an effective mass of between 14 to 16 grams.

[RobbieGong]

If I go by this https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency and assuming effective mass of 14g, then 16.8g headshell + 10.7g cartridge + headshell screws/wire = too much total mass for optimal resonance frequency range.

[phonomac]

Assuming that the effective mass is similar to the MA-505 (a reasonable assumption), the 14g includes the 10g headshell. So you need to use 4g + 16.8 + +10.7 + wires etc. That will put you just above 7Hz.

The MA-202 arm tube is slightly lighter than the MA-505 (I've held both of them in my hand :))

regards

Angus

[Stryder5]

If I go by this https://www.ortofon.com/support/support-hifi/resonance-frequency and assuming effective mass of 14g, then 16.8g headshell + 10.7g cartridge + headshell screws/wire = too much total mass for optimal resonance frequency range.

I can't fault your logic or theory, probably your only course of action is to try for yourself.

[RobbieGong]

Assuming that the effective mass is similar to the MA-505 (a reasonable assumption), the 14g includes the 10g headshell. So you need to use 4g + 16.8 + +10.7 + wires etc. That will put you just above 7Hz.

The MA-202 arm tube is slightly lighter than the MA-505 (I've held both of them in my hand :))

regards

Angus

And that's why you are my favourite tech Angus. You spotted that my calculation was flawed as I hadn't included the headshell weight in the 14g effective mass.
I'm liking your calculation and 7hz which would sit things in the right area of optimum range :)

[martian sunrise]

I've never been able to find the effective mass of the ma202 arm. I will be interested to hear your results.

[martian sunrise]

I guess I could work backwards with a test record and a cart with a known compliance. Current cart is a Denon, so I don't even know comp at 100ha

[RobbieGong]

I've never been able to find the effective mass of the ma202 arm. I will be interested to hear your results.

No one has that I know of and I've seen the question asked on a number of forums.
Angus has given what sounds like the best and likely logic though.
Based on that and what I've learned I'll give it a try. I'm far more confident now that the result will be very good and report back in due course ;)

[RobbieGong]

Decisions decisions. Been thinking that I can move even more to that ideal resonance area with the 12g magnesium headshell I was originally going to use but sold to fund the 16g Ortofon.
I may well go back to one of those as It makes total sense to use the Cadenza in as optimum context as is possible.

[kcc123]

Hi Robert,

I have a tonearm effective mass calculator spreadsheet made by Luckydog which I downloaded from Vinyle Engine some years ago but I need some more informations about the mass of the counterweight of your MA202 , the weight of the arm at stylus end (without the headshell , cartridge and counterweight removed) and also the desired VTF in grams.

[Barry]

Hi Robert,

I have a tonearm effective mass calculator spreadsheet made by Luckydog which I downloaded from Vinyle Engine some years ago but I need some more informations about the mass of the counterweight of your MA202 , the weight of the arm at stylus end (without the headshell , cartridge and counterweight removed) and also the desired VTF in grams.

Can you give us the link to the vinyengine.com site please King? I think many here would be interested to see it.

[kcc123]

Hi Barry,

I could not find the link which I think has been removed.

[Barry]

Luckydog's spreadsheet applied to straight arms only, and not to S- or J- shaped arms. The calculation of effective mass for a straight arm is relatively simple, given some dimensions and the dead weight of both the arm wand and of the counterweight.

I did once perform similar calculations for someone who had made his own S-shaped arm, and published his design here. He was able to give me some details of the materials used and some dimensions, as well as providing a photo. From this I was able to derive other dimensions. Making some reasonable assumptions, and after some 10 pages of calculations, I was able to provide figures for the effective masses for movement in both the horizontal and vertical plane.

Sadly the designer of the arm, despite being curious as to the actual effective mass of his arm, seemed neither interested in my calculations nor of the result.

[RobbieGong]

If I go with the 12g headshell I fancy now instead (to improve things resonance wise) @ 12g + 4g likely tonearm mass + 10.7g for cart + 1g for wire = 27.7g which should see me on the edge of the comfort zone.

Ideally I'd like an even lighter magnesium headshell if I could find one with both overhang and azimuth adjust too but nigh on impossible to find. The 12g headshell I'm considering has both