Jelco SA750D with Denon DL103 - Alternative headshell recommendations

[neilmacey]

Good afternoon. Its only my second post on AOS. I only received one reply to the last one so hopefully will do a bit better this time

Im going to be using a Denon DL103 in combination with Jelco SA750D tonearm and am interested to hear anyones direct experience of this combination using the standard Jelco headshell and alternative headshells priced at < £100. I am installing a pair of SL1200 MK2s in a new hifi club and need a pair of backup headshells with cartridges ready fitted in case DJ Clumsyfingers has an accident. I'm not against buying an extra pair of Jelco headshells but whilst spending the money i'd be interested to hear from anyone who has achieved a noticeable benefit from another product

Thanks in advance
Neil

[Mikeandvan]

WOw, whats the club? Bit posh for DJ use! CLubbers in for a treat.

[Stryder5]

Hi Neil,

As you're in sunny Spain, while we sit here freezing, do you really expect replies.......lol.

I've heard that that the 103 can be a little fragile, no personal experience though.

All the best Gary

[neilmacey]

I guess my last question was really boring thats why no-one replied :)

Its a new club in Ibiza, 150 capacity, half seating and half dance floor. Its a vinyl only club with a pair of substantially modified MK2s as the front end, Graham Slee Reflex preamps feeding into a hand built rotary mixer and Klipsch vintage range speakers all round. It's having a pair of Klipschorns as the main front of house, 2 pairs of Cornwall in the seating area and the DJ has a pair of Heresy for his monitors. The amplification will be Paul Baldwin's L10 monoblocks. The owner is a musician, he's already got a little live music club here and this is a new venture.

Re : the Denon choice - it appears to be the only cartridge on the market deemed to be 'hifi' which allows 2.5 to 2.7 g of VTF which is essential to be able to backcue a record. (When i say backcue i mean literally wind it backwards a bit, not violent scratching.). All cartridges marketed as DJ cartridges have a minimum of 3g downforce and are pretty crude with sonics that appeal to people that don't really get subtleties in music, if you know what i mean. I've made it very clear to the boss about the dangers of using such a delicate cartridge but i don't see any other option. It would be an awful compromise in this system but put a naff sounding component at the very beginning of the chain. Don't you agree? I am totally open to someone pointing out another cartridge deemed hifi which specifies 2.5g VTF

Thanks for the replies, very encouraging :)

[neilmacey]

Also after a search of AOS i read a thread where Marco gave a comprehensive reply to someone else asking about SA750D with Denon but the Sumiko headshell he recommends in that thread which ticks my box is no longer available unfortunately, only the much pricier ones

[Stryder5]

I really think you need a cartridge designed for the job, I don't think many "normal" hi fi cartridge suspensions will cope with backtracking, perhaps Decca.

Have a look at Grado's on this site.

http://www.juno.co.uk/dj-equipment/dj-cartridges

[Barry]

I really think you need a cartridge designed for the job, I don't think many "normal" hi fi cartridge suspensions will cope with backtracking, perhaps Decca.

Have a look at Grado's on this site.

http://www.juno.co.uk/dj-equipment/dj-cartridges

NO! - the suspension will most certainly collapse if you try to backtrack a Decca. Having said that, Decca did (and possibly still do) intoduce a variant based on the Mk. V, which used two tie-back cords. I forget what this variant was called, but can be identified by the lurid acid-yellow colour of the housing.

[Stryder5]

NO! - the suspension will most certainly collapse if you try to backtrack a Decca. Having said that, Decca did (and possibly still do) intoduce a variant based on the Mk. V, which used two tie-back cords. I forget what this variant was called, but can be identified by the lurid acid-yellow colour of the housing.

I bow to your superior knowledge, do you think a 103 is ok then?

[petrat]

Strongly suggest you use Shure SC35C cartridges ... and, yes, they are 'hi-fi'.
The Denon isn't designed for the job ... everytime you trash a cantilever/suspension, it'll be two hundred quid to replace. The replaceable stylus unit for the Shure is about one-tenth of that (£20ish)

[Barry]

Further to my post above, the DJ Decca is called the London 'Professional', and is the yellow/green coloured one shown below. It was reviewd in Hi-Fi World a couple of years ago.

http://londondeccaaudio.com/top.jpg

[Barry]

Strongly suggest you use Shure SC35C cartridges ... and, yes, they are 'hi-fi'.
The Denon isn't designed for the job ... everytime you trash a cantilever/suspension, it'll be two hundred quid to replace. The replaceable stylus unit for the Shure is about one-tenth of that (£20ish)

I agree, you are very likely to distroy the cantilever of the Denon, by backtracking.

The Shure SC35C sounds more suitable. Though broadcast record cueing engineers would place the stylus on the record a little before the point where they wanted to play, then using headphones they would rotate the platter by hand, clockwise, until they just heard the start of the track. They would then lift the arm and move the record back a 'smidgen' (technical term that) and lower the arm. Since all broadcast standard TTs were equipped with an 'instant start' facility the cueing was very effective.

[shire]

I used a 103r successfully with the 750d albeit the aluminium body version,(this is supposed to give the mass needed to the standard jelco headshell) not an expert in these technical matters, needed to buy the heavier counterweight to balance.
The cantilever is now broken,always seemed a delicate affair.

[neilmacey]

Thank you for the informed responses. Interesting suggestion the Shure SC35C, i've actually got one minus stylus in my box somewhere, will order a new one and check it out.

Regarding the unsuitability of the DL103 for its intended use and possible damage - The two delicate areas mentioned are the cantilever and suspension. I understand the function of both. Can someone clarify exactly what it is about either that makes them unsuitable for this purpose? I'm not doubting that it may be true, its just that i don't know why. A hifi person would simply never backcue a record by winding it with their hand but i don't remember seeing instructions such as 'do not play record backwards with this cartridge' on any that i've ever bought

I personally use a Goldring 1012GX on my Technics at home and never backcue with it because i've seen and can feel the stress the cantilever going through on the odd occasion i've tried to wind a record backwards to cue it up for recording. I'd have thought, without firsthand experience, that given the Denon's 2.7g recommended VTF compared to the 1.7g of the Goldring that the cantilever itself would be stiffer and therefore more robust?

Regarding suspension - for my information - is the suspension of a cartridge designed in such a way that any reverse forces applied to it are going to damage it somehow or dislodge the cantilever from its intended position or in what way would it be damaged?

i'd already said to the boss that he might end up buying a pair of these every week and he wasn't at all bothered if thats what it cost to achieve a superior sound, its just an overhead was his attitude. However if a cheaper and just as effective solution was available then i'm sure he wouldn't have a problem with that.

So with that in mind and money aside, what would you prefer to listen to? Shure SC35C or Denon DL103?

[Barry]

With the Shure SC35C, the stylus is detachable from the cartridge body, so should the stylus become damaged it can be easily replaced with a new one. With the Denon 103, being a moving coil design, the stylus/cantilever is integral with the cartridge body. So if you want to use a Denon, for DJ duties you need to have several separate cartridges each mounted in their own headshell, so one can be substituted for a damaged one.

I think you would, however, be better off using one of the Ortofon Concord series of cartridges that have been designed to withstand the rigors of DJ use, and yet have good SQ.

[blackstar]

Whether or not the cartridge is low compliance, the suspension is stiff etc. if you back cue with a Denon or most other cartridges, I'd say you are heading down the boulevard of broken dreams.

[ptstucky]

Hi Neil,

While I have heard a few DJs say they've used the 103, all were very explicit that it takes a particular light hand when back queuing. I have tried with my own 103r, and while I can confirm that it will track, it made my stomach turn a couple times. My feeling is that most DJs - regardless of how aware they are before a set of the more delicate cantilevers- will revert to a technique they use with "DJ carts" and damage the cantilever. They 103 sounds terrific, but it is a risk to use them in a club setting.

I have heard of the Decca DJ carts mentioned above, but have not heard anyone with experience using them. They are quite expensive, if I recall, but may be worth further investigation, as I am sure they sound fantastic.
I would recommend you look at Grado DJ200i carts, as well. I am currently using these in my home setup for mixing sessions, and they have a wonderful lower midrange "Grado" signature sound. They track amazingly well and rarely skip during back queuing if properly set up. The biggest complaint people seem to have is hum can appear in the inner grooves due to emi from the 1200s transformers; that said, if these decks are heavily modded, as you suggest, they really should already be using an external PSU, which eliminates this problem.

Good luck!

Paul


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CageyH]

The other thing to look at is if you have the Graham Slee Refelx M or Reflex C.
If you have the Reflax M, a Denon 103 is going to be very quiet. You will need additional equipment such as a head amp or step up transformer to get the same output as a moving magnet cartridge such as the Shure SC35C mentioned earlier.

[petrat]

I think you would, however, be better off using one of the Ortofon Concord series of cartridges that have been designed to withstand the rigors of DJ use, and yet have good SQ.

The 35C has a cantilever like a girder, and is promoted by Shure (and sold in the thousands) as a DJ cartridge. It also sounds really good when tracked at at the recommended 4-5 grams (dance-proof!). I regularly use one on my hifi system, and it isn't at all humbled by the company it's keeping :D

I also have a Denon 103R, and the construction of it really isn't sturdy enough for any sort of DJ use imo ... even with care, I doubt it would last any time at all. In poor lighting, it'd also be less easy to cue than the 35C, which has a highlight on the stylus for easy visibility.

[neilmacey]

Thank you Paul and petrat. The opinion of someone with first hand experience is valued. My feeling is that in this environment the cantilever would get broken by clumsily dropping it on the edge of the spinning platter well before it broke from being simply wound backwards. Going down the MM route instead of MC makes everything cheaper and simpler i agree. I found this glowing review from an astonished audiophile reviewer which was encouraging

http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-3-shure-sc35c

N35X and SSc35c replacement styli are ordered and i will report back. I'll see if i can get the boss to buy a Grado 220i for side by side evaluation. I'd read a few negative comments about the Grado's and backcueing but i was suspicious that they may just not have been set up correctly as most DJ's don't have a clue or really care about these things. The MK2s will have external PSUs so the inner groove hum won't be a problem

Thanks for taking the time to comment