View Full Version : What does it mean when the vinyl pressing is labeled 'audiophile'?
magiccarpetride
18-04-2017, 16:42
I was chatting with a sales guy at the local record store and relayed my disappointing experience with the 2012 remastered Beatles "Abbey Road" 180 g pressing (which I purchased in his store). He replied that the new remaster sounds the way I describe it because it's the 'audiophile' issue (sic?!?)
That made me ponder: what does it mean when someone labels a vinyl pressing as 'audiophile'? If I were to judge by the overall sound of the 180 g Abbey Road remaster, I'd conclude that 'audiophile' implies dark, somewhat subdued, 'safe' sound. Excessively warm (to a fault), with a lot of high-end sparkle removed in order to eliminate the inevitable tape hiss. The end result is sound which, for the lack of a better word, I'd describe as 'sanded off'.
Maybe some connoisseurs prefer such castrated sound (and then rush to dignify it with 'audiophile' epithet), but to me it's all ass backwards. Or did I get everything wrong?
Anyway, what's your opinion on what qualifies as 'audiophile' issue?
Arkless Electronics
18-04-2017, 16:45
It's just marketing bollocks... same as when they call a vacuum cleaner "digital"!
Stryder5
18-04-2017, 16:48
Generally it means that they can charge you more for it, whether it's crap or not.
It's just marketing bollocks... same as when they call a vacuum cleaner "digital"!
My vacuum cleaner is digital. It has two states - on or off.
Stryder5
18-04-2017, 18:09
My vacuum cleaner is digital. It has two states - on or off.
Is that a switched mode supply:D
archiesdad
19-04-2017, 15:07
It usually means that your wallet is about to be raided regardless of quality.
magiccarpetride
19-04-2017, 16:54
It usually means that your wallet is about to be raided regardless of quality.
Isn't that the provenance of 'remastered' issues?
337alant
19-04-2017, 17:47
It means to own it you have to grow a beard and smoke a pipe
magiccarpetride
19-04-2017, 21:19
It means to own it you have to grow a beard and smoke a pipe
Bingo! That's why, when I tried to purchase an audiophile pressing, the sales clerk told me "your money is no good here, Sir". I was cleanly shaven (and I don't even own a pipe, let alone smoke it)
Stratmangler
19-04-2017, 21:39
Bingo! That's why, when I tried to purchase an audiophile pressing, the sales clerk told me "your money is no good here, Sir". I was cleanly shaven (and I don't even own a pipe, let alone smoke it)
You have PM
Agree about Audiophile pressings. Can be great, no guarantee. Just like all vinyl. What pisses me off is the way that some very thin old albums sound better than their audiophile reissues. I'd cite "Ziggy Stardust" as a good example. My original "Dynaflex" copy - so thin you can almost see through it - still sounds better than my recent copy. And that's despite its having been played many, many times over with all sorts of crude equipment, and in smokey boozy parties. For all the modern tech, I wonder if the cutting of decent masters is becoming a lost art.
magiccarpetride
21-04-2017, 19:56
Agree about Audiophile pressings. Can be great, no guarantee. Just like all vinyl. What pisses me off is the way that some very thin old albums sound better than their audiophile reissues. I'd cite "Ziggy Stardust" as a good example. My original "Dynaflex" copy - so thin you can almost see through it - still sounds better than my recent copy. And that's despite its having been played many, many times over with all sorts of crude equipment, and in smokey boozy parties. For all the modern tech, I wonder if the cutting of decent masters is becoming a lost art.
Yeah, it is observations like this one that make me a bit reserved toward purchasing new pressings. I too have a number of old worn out LPs that play brilliantly compared to the recent reissues. It sucks, because now I'm forced to do a lot of crate digging in search of LPs I want to listen to, instead of simply ordering new, shrink wrapped items. Can't justify that, what with current prices of new LPs going through the roof!
Wakefield Turntables
21-04-2017, 20:08
It means F*** all. Review each piece of vinyl on its own merits.
magiccarpetride
21-04-2017, 21:39
It means F*** all. Review each piece of vinyl on its own merits.
Life is too short for that kind of bullshit.
Sherwood
21-04-2017, 22:57
It's just marketing bollocks... same as when they call a vacuum cleaner "digital"!
I have just bought some gloves and I am glad I went with the digital option!
:)
It means to own it you have to grow a beard and smoke a pipe
Reminds me of the episode of SpongeBob, where they decide to be an adult, you must wear sideburns, say words like "Tax Exemption", and listen to free form jazz.
I've got an "Audiophile" copy of Judas Priest Screaming For Vengeance, it is far and away better than the original cut, to which I have both. But while the word Audiophile is bandied about as costing more, the engineering is completely up to the engineer who engineered it! His call, if he likes dark and sanded off, then that's what you'll get! One might think something worth that kind of investment might actually be critiqued by a staff of golden eared individuals? What a novel concept? As it turns out, the ones putting up the money want their ears to be the golden ears, so you can always tell who has the golden ears, it's the guy with the most money!
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Reminds me of the episode of SpongeBob, where they decide to be an adult, you must wear sideburns, say words like "Tax Exemption", and listen to free form jazz.
LOL I like the episode where they want to find out what seaweed is made of so they put some through an analyser and it comes out as '50% Sea, 50% Weed.'
LOL I like the episode where they want to find out what seaweed is made of so they put some through an analyser and it comes out as '50% Sea, 50% Weed.'
I don't know who writes this stuff, but I'll have what they're having!
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An observation that the cartridge/arm VTA setup is only an approximation that will vary for different record thicknesses. I doubt that many people will adjust their arm height setup for each record. It is a possibility that subtle variations in VTA could well account for a thicker record sounding a bit dull relative to a thin record. My suggestion would be to try a thinner mat to see if that helps.
IMV VTA is not that important to the point that record thickness will play any part. Just my 3 penceworth.
walpurgis
22-04-2017, 21:33
IMV VTA is not that important to the point that record thickness will play any part. Just my 3 penceworth.
There are those who may have palpitations from the shock of reading what you just said Grant. Not me mind you! :D
An observation that the cartridge/arm VTA setup is only an approximation that will vary for different record thicknesses. I doubt that many people will adjust their arm height setup for each record. It is a possibility that subtle variations in VTA could well account for a thicker record sounding a bit dull relative to a thin record. My suggestion would be to try a thinner mat to see if that helps.
Oh, I'm sure there are some fanatics out there who do that: noting the approved VTA setting on the rear of the LP sleeve. Of course they will use an arm whereby the VTA is easily adjustable.
I'm having palpitations! No not really, usually, the 180 gram vinyls are the ones that are supposed to be the "Audiophile" versions, so I tried to get my VTA perfect for those. And it leans a bit forward on the thinner records. So I try to break even, it's not very far really. Depending on the length of your arm, short arms are more greatly affected. But I guess if you've got one of those VTA towers on your arm that allow for quick adjustment, than changing record thickness gives you a reason to fiddle with it! That's why we play records isn't it? So we can make our adjustments and tweak the sound? That's what makes it better than CD right?
I jest, but if you do have an arm with the VTA adjustment with big numbers printed on the top, you'll probably know by heart what number to adjust to depending on the record thickness. So it's not that big a deal for them. My old record player, the Project Debut, playing a 180 or 200 gram record and the arm would almost touch the edge, visibly running up hill! One of the reasons I upgraded to an outfit that had adjustable VTA.
I have heard that how important VTA is greatly depends on the cartridge. Or perhaps the cut of the diamond? Some may have a wide window of correctness, while others a narrow margin. You will be making the adjustment during playback, and suddenly the sound comes into focus, highs and lows stretch out, sound staging opens up. On some that comes in gradually and never gets but so great, while others are bad right up until they are great! They quickly pop into focus and the difference is night and day! So, it could depend on what cartridge you own as to whether it's worth making the adjustment for a record's thickness?
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Haselsh1
23-04-2017, 07:07
Agree about Audiophile pressings. Can be great, no guarantee. Just like all vinyl. What pisses me off is the way that some very thin old albums sound better than their audiophile reissues. I'd cite "Ziggy Stardust" as a good example. My original "Dynaflex" copy - so thin you can almost see through it - still sounds better than my recent copy. And that's despite its having been played many, many times over with all sorts of crude equipment, and in smokey boozy parties. For all the modern tech, I wonder if the cutting of decent masters is becoming a lost art.
Yes, totally agree with you there regarding the Ziggy album. My ultra thin and flexy copy sounds sublime.
Anyway, what's your opinion on what qualifies as 'audiophile' issue?
If my limited experience of hifi shows is anything to go by, it's either 'safe' jazz music, usually with a breathy female vocalist, or the same old Pink Floyd/Dire Straits stuff that everyone knows off by heart, so they can spot where Roger Waters clears his throat on track 3 of DSTOM.
Yes, totally agree with you there regarding the Ziggy album. My ultra thin and flexy copy sounds sublime.
Got n old thin copy too. Someone wanted to buy it earlier lol. Had that for many years, and yes it does sound excellent
magiccarpetride
23-04-2017, 16:38
Got n old thin copy too. Someone wanted to buy it earlier lol. Had that for many years, and yes it does sound excellent
Haha, another thing that sounds curious to me is the claim that holding a thick, beefy 180 gram LP in your hands gives you that feeling of quality. No! It's the opposite for me. When I'm holding that heavy hunk of plastic in my hands, I actually feel like I'm dealing with some dull carelessly hobbled product. It is those flexible, sexy LPs from the days of my early youth that give me the sense of care and craftsmanship.
It takes all sorts, I s'pose.
Just as with CD's, I never bothered to replace any of my original collection. Any 180 gram records I own are albums I never owned previously. So I don't have the old copy to compare. I do have a new copy of Rainbow on red vinyl that looks very cool when taking pictures of my record player!
I read an article a few years ago concerning the fact that all the old companies that supplied vinyl to the pressing plants were long out of business, so the pressing plants got together and made a whole new formula. The article claimed that the original recipe was lost to the ages, but I find that hard to believe.
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magiccarpetride
23-04-2017, 18:53
Just as with CD's, I never bothered to replace any of my original collection. Any 180 gram records I own are albums I never owned previously. So I don't have the old copy to compare. I do have a new copy of Rainbow on red vinyl that looks very cool when taking pictures of my record player!
I read an article a few years ago concerning the fact that all the old companies that supplied vinyl to the pressing plants were long out of business, so the pressing plants got together and made a whole new formula. The article claimed that the original recipe was lost to the ages, but I find that hard to believe.
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So far, all the brand new 180 gram pressings I've purchased sound dull to me. It must be the thickness of the record messing with the VTA, or it is true that the new pressing plants were forced to invent new ways of producing LPs. Could it perhaps be that, in the effort to demonstrate how different vinyl sounds compared to digital files, the new way of pressing LPs intentionally leans toward the darker, duller, more muffled sound?
(I remember my buddy, who was at the time working in a hi fi store, relating to me the story about one of his patients... er, customers: he went to the customer's home to install some expensive new component, and then the guy started bragging how his ultra pricey digital rig sounds so 'analogue'. My friend noticed something's odd, in a major way, with the sound. When he checked, turned out that the tweeters got totally disconnected for some reason. So the customer thought that, due to the lack of highs in the sound reproduction, it had more analogue quality?)
Maybe it's that line of reasoning that is informing the new practices in the LP pressing?
Generally it means that they can charge you more for it, whether it's crap or not.
Yup quite right.
just a suggestion but could the 'dull' sound being described be as a result of incorrect RIAA equalisation? Either at the production end or at the reproduction end? Or both?
magiccarpetride
24-04-2017, 17:21
just a suggestion but could the 'dull' sound being described be as a result of incorrect RIAA equalisation? Either at the production end or at the reproduction end? Or both?
Yeah, could be. So through some comedy of errors, I may be using the botched chain that does RIAA equalization incorrectly, making the quality LPs sound dull, while making crappy LPs sound sparkly and lively? That would be so awesome if it were indeed possible!
So far, all the brand new 180 gram pressings I've purchased sound dull to me. It must be the thickness of the record messing with the VTA, or it is true that the new pressing plants were forced to invent new ways of producing LPs. Could it perhaps be that, in the effort to demonstrate how different vinyl sounds compared to digital files, the new way of pressing LPs intentionally leans toward the darker, duller, more muffled sound?
(I remember my buddy, who was at the time working in a hi fi store, relating to me the story about one of his patients... er, customers: he went to the customer's home to install some expensive new component, and then the guy started bragging how his ultra pricey digital rig sounds so 'analogue'. My friend noticed something's odd, in a major way, with the sound. When he checked, turned out that the tweeters got totally disconnected for some reason. So the customer thought that, due to the lack of highs in the sound reproduction, it had more analogue quality?)
Maybe it's that line of reasoning that is informing the new practices in the LP pressing?
That has not been my experience for the most part. New 180g records aren't overly dark. Darker than my old records? I haven't really noticed. But it could be a VTA thing? As I said I adjust for the thicker records, so the thinner ones have a steeper angle.
And the RIAA thing may have something to do with it. Perhaps they, the master cutters, are applying more RIAA equalization? So they are lacking on both ends if the preamp is not applying enough gain to the highs and lows.?
For my main decks that I use most for listening I do not have an issue with 180g pressings sounding dull on my system. I am a bit similar to Russell in that I have not gone out of my way to purchase new pressings for old material and not sure if I have any that I can do a direct comparison with.
I have a lot of decks so do quite a bit of cartridge swapping with the objective of trying to get the performance up to the level of my best sounding decks. I don't set up my decks specifically for the 180g pressings but look for an average. If I have set the deck up correctly and it sounds dull then I will initially check VTA and tracking force. If the arm height is lower than parallel then it may lead toward a duller sound while higher than parallel may be too bright. The tracking force ideally needs to be somewhere in the middle of the recommended range but if too heavy could also result in a dull sound. If I cant get the sound I want after messing about with VTA and VTF then I blame the cartridge and switch to another.
Given a straight comparison of a thick record with a thin record of same material on the same deck then I would expect the thin record to sound brighter all other things being equal. Whether brighter means better will be down to your personal tastes and expectations as a listener.
magiccarpetride
25-04-2017, 17:10
For my main decks that I use most for listening I do not have an issue with 180g pressings sounding dull on my system. I am a bit similar to Russell in that I have not gone out of my way to purchase new pressings for old material and not sure if I have any that I can do a direct comparison with.
I have a lot of decks so do quite a bit of cartridge swapping with the objective of trying to get the performance up to the level of my best sounding decks. I don't set up my decks specifically for the 180g pressings but look for an average. If I have set the deck up correctly and it sounds dull then I will initially check VTA and tracking force. If the arm height is lower than parallel then it may lead toward a duller sound while higher than parallel may be too bright. The tracking force ideally needs to be somewhere in the middle of the recommended range but if too heavy could also result in a dull sound. If I cant get the sound I want after messing about with VTA and VTF then I blame the cartridge and switch to another.
Given a straight comparison of a thick record with a thin record of same material on the same deck then I would expect the thin record to sound brighter all other things being equal. Whether brighter means better will be down to your personal tastes and expectations as a listener.
Thanks, that's a good answer. My experiences when comparing 180 gram remaster with the old pressing of the same album is not that the old pressing sounds brighter, it's that it has more sparkle. And 180 gram remaster has noticeably less sparkle, which I call dark, dull.
One explanation is that the new remaster was cut from the aged tapes, which have deteriorated over time. The old pressing was cut in the days when the master tapes were still in a good shape. Another explanation is that the new pressing plants are staffed with people who are still learning their craft on the job. Pressing an LP is not a simple 'push the button' process. It is critical to employ staff who are very skilled not only at managing and maintaining the process, but also with spotting defects and in general, doing good quality assurance.
I think pretty much 90% of my 180/200 gm cuts are excellent. Only had a couple i,d say were disappointing. Still think the vinyl used in 50,s and early 60's was the best stuff especially for hardness and resilliannce to scratching. Have to say though my library vinyl wise has been getting smaller as i am getting infirm and using tt is difficult often. Thats sad as its still the best medium imo, at least at my pricepoint. If i could afford a chord dac i might change my mind of course. Lol. Ive collected vinyl all my life ... since i was 10 actually, and its a disease lol
Stratmangler
25-04-2017, 17:22
Another explanation for the difference in top end could be down to the tweeters in the speakers in the mastering suite.
Abbey Road Studios have a set of B&W 801D speakers, which are reckoned by some to be a bit on the bright side.
If someone is eq'ing the mix to sound balanced on those speakers then it might come across as dull on less upfront speakers.
magiccarpetride
25-04-2017, 18:45
Another explanation for the difference in top end could be down to the tweeters in the speakers in the mastering suite.
Abbey Road Studios have a set of B&W 801D speakers, which are reckoned by some to be a bit on the bright side.
If someone is eq'ing the mix to sound balanced on those speakers then it might come across as dull on less upfront speakers.
Sounds reasonable. But wasn't the original mastering also done at the same facility? If yes, how come the old school pressings have much more sparkle than the new ones?
Stratmangler
25-04-2017, 19:17
Sounds reasonable. But wasn't the original mastering also done at the same facility? If yes, how come the old school pressings have much more sparkle than the new ones?
Back then Harry Moss had the big Tannoys.
Different beast altogether.
Stratmangler
25-04-2017, 19:23
Another thing to consider is that the cutting engineer would have most certainly been aware that the record would be played in the main on something like a Dansette, or a Pye Black Box.
Any mastering would have had these rudimentary record players in mind.
magiccarpetride
25-04-2017, 20:36
Back then Harry Moss had the big Tannoys.
Different beast altogether.
Gotcha. I totally get that the sonic signature of the studio monitors will determine the overall sound of the final master.
magiccarpetride
25-04-2017, 20:39
I think pretty much 90% of my 180/200 gm cuts are excellent. Only had a couple i,d say were disappointing. Still think the vinyl used in 50,s and early 60's was the best stuff especially for hardness and resilliannce to scratching. Have to say though my library vinyl wise has been getting smaller as i am getting infirm and using tt is difficult often. Thats sad as its still the best medium imo, at least at my pricepoint. If i could afford a chord dac i might change my mind of course. Lol. Ive collected vinyl all my life ... since i was 10 actually, and its a disease lol
The ones I find most disappointing are the reissues of the material that was recorded 40 - 50 years ago. A case in point: Sgt. Pepper's 2012 mono reissue. Compared to my scratchy old mono Sgt. Peppers, the 2012 reissue sounds a bit muffled. I figure that's caused by the inevitable deterioration of the signal that was put on magnetic tape almost 50 years ago. Time is not gentle to those magnetic tapes...
The ones I find most disappointing are the reissues of the material that was recorded 40 - 50 years ago. A case in point: Sgt. Pepper's 2012 mono reissue. Compared to my scratchy old mono Sgt. Peppers, the 2012 reissue sounds a bit muffled. I figure that's caused by the inevitable deterioration of the signal that was put on magnetic tape almost 50 years ago. Time is not gentle to those magnetic tapes...
Ive not heard the reissue but have one of the older presses.. it is quite good. The Magazine issue of let it be a few weeks ago was quite decent, and only one I bought. Ive got areissue of Abbey rd, which is good but not the mag one. I also have the older press from 60's. its up for sale actually. Its greatbut I dont need 2. None of the Beatles recordings are going to astound you sonically as they were recorded in a different way to modern music.
magiccarpetride
25-04-2017, 23:10
Ive not heard the reissue but have one of the older presses.. it is quite good. The Magazine issue of let it be a few weeks ago was quite decent, and only one I bought. Ive got areissue of Abbey rd, which is good but not the mag one. I also have the older press from 60's. its up for sale actually. Its greatbut I dont need 2. None of the Beatles recordings are going to astound you sonically as they were recorded in a different way to modern music.
I for one find many Beatles LPs to sound very good, provided it's a good pressing, of course. Abbey Road side two is a stellar example, with crisp, sparkly sound, good extended frequency range, and overall very impressive and pleasant listening. Also, I have a "Hey Jude" compilation (Canadian pressing), and the sound on some songs if phenomenal (sonically my fav is "Old Brown Shoe").
I think pretty much 90% of my 180/200 gm rly 60's was the best stuff especially for hardness and resilliannce to scratching. Have to say though my library vinyl wise has been getting smaller as i am getting infirm and using tt is difficult often. Thats sad as its still the best medium imo, at least at my pricepoint. If i could afford a chord dac i might change my mind of course. Lol. Ive collected vinyl all my life ... since i was 10 actually, and its a disease lol
I can emphasise with you there Grant, as I'm also having problems due to becoming increasingly infirm. I can still operate my turntable ok, but due to progressive arthritis in both hands have had to resort to handling records with white cotton gloves to avoid greasy fingerprints. I've also had to start using my left hand (I'm right handed) as my right has become badly deformed so putting a glove on can be a painful process...can't say it's a bundle of fun with my left hand either come to that. It is indeed sad as you say, vinyl is my main format by far and I've been playing it for 50+ years, so it will be a hard habit to break. Might have to start training the missus!:eek:...second thoughts..it might be better to start expanding my CD collection.:)
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