Recommend me a preamp please?

[Edward]

So a friend has lent me an Azur 840e preamp and I'm blown away. Really opened up the sound, increased dynamics, fluid, fast, natural, accurate, 3d etc.

Source is digital (mainly redbook FLAC) to a NOS DAC and power amp is newly built Radford Revival STA25s driving PMC LB1 Signatures.

The band is playing in front of me in my sitting room! :lol:

I need to return the Azur 840e at some point and don't fancy going back to the passive preamp I was using (nice that it is).

So what to get?

Only need 2 or 3 line level inputs (I already have a dedicated phono stage), ideally with remote control for volume. As good as or better than the Azur 840e.

Budget - variable - lets say up to £1k. New or preloved.

cheers

[Dynamics]

Obvious one is a newer Cambridge audio pre if you get good results with CA. I spotted this one for you, £300 off.
http://www.richersounds.com/product/dacs/cambridge-audio/azur-851d/camb-851d-blk

Then if you are spending a grand, the cyrus pre 2 dac is good, for a detailed and dynamic fast paced sound. Some are above this price but with a dealer discount you'd get it for £1k I reckon. I use cyrus with pmc to good effect.

Or naim, you'd get a nice warm sound . Something like this might be achievable at a grand

http://www.audiot.co.uk/products/naim-nac152-xs-pre-amplifier-210.aspx

It's regrettable that lots of good makes don't do pre amps at certain prices, or any pre amps at all, but I think Cambridge audio, cyrus and naim are pretty flexible to offer different price pre amps.

I'd reckon Cambridge audio are closer to the cyrus sound than naim. But it looks like that richer sounds amp could be a bargain particularly as it's likely to sound better than the older model you tried.

[Edward]

Thanks Simon. Plenty of food for thought.

Indeed getting a newer CA Azur is one my possible options. The self same friend has a 851N (the streamer dac) which is essentially like the 851D you mentioned. Wonderful unit. But of course only digital inputs. Getting the dedicated preamp on top of that (the 851E) becomes rather expensive

One idea is to get the 851n and dispense with my current DAC and live without any analogue inputs.

The Naim and Cyrus ideas are good. I need to research more on that. One other idea is to go down the Croft route.

I have also been considering the RME ADI2-Pro which gives lots of functions with first class sound, but sadly no remote control. Also would be paying for ADC function which realistically I would not use much.

[Pharos]

I have an AVI S2000 to sell, my having changed it for an ATC SCA2. (At great expense)

The figures are stunning and in fact better than the ATC, as is the build quality surprisingly. It is a relatively recent one and I have fitted a new larger Alps pot, it also has an excellent phono stage.

Judging by the names mentioned I think it may not be your cup of tea, being SS.

[Edward]

Thanks Dennis

I know the AVI name but never heard their equipment. Please could you give me some more details. If you have a price in mind feel free to speak up (or send me a PM if you prefer).

Is the Alps pot remote controlled?

Except for the Croft all the other names are SS so I don't see that as an issue.

cheers

[walpurgis]

I have an AVI S2000 to sell,

I had one of those twenty years or so ago.

[topoxforddoc]

If you can stretch to 1500 notes, there is a serviced TRON Seven line stage for sale on PFM. That's a truly high end pre amp for an excellent price. Build quality is dare I say it, even better than the Radford (I have an original Radford STA15/3 as well as TRON gear for comparison). You won't need to upgrade your preamp ever after that.
Charlie

[alphaGT]

When you've made your selection, I'd love to hear your impressions of it, a full review. I too am shopping for a preamp. My present is a Parasound Halo 3. Lots of inputs, the internal phono sounds good, although I don't use it, balanced outs. Remote control! I hate to say that is my number one requirement. I have no use for a none remote unit. But it's not up to the rest of my gear, and I am completely overwhelmed at choosing a replacement. I've heard that a nice tube preamp can add much life to a solid state rig. I may venture in that direction next?


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[Pharos]

Ok Edwardion, S2000MP preamp specs.

I/P sens. line 150mV
I/P impedance 20k
Distortion (THD+IMD) -120dB
O/P level 1.0V
O/P impedance 1 ohm
Tape O/P 150mV
Frequency response (-3dB) 1.5Hz and 500kHz.
Six I/Ps, one with switchable MM/MC board installed
Remote controlled
Independent tape source selection.
All connections unbalanced ccts, which actually produce less distortion than balanced ccts which are preferred by professionals because they allow the very long lengths of interconnects often needed in studios.
Standby consumption 14W, when on 15W
Serial No 97422

Compared with the ATC it is 'just a little different', and very difficult to describe usefully.
£450.

[Edward]

If you can stretch to 1500 notes, there is a serviced TRON Seven line stage for sale on PFM. That's a truly high end pre amp for an excellent price. Build quality is dare I say it, even better than the Radford (I have an original Radford STA15/3 as well as TRON gear for comparison). You won't need to upgrade your preamp ever after that.
Charlie

Indeed the GT Tron preamp seems to be lovingly built and I have nothing but good on the excellent sound Graham Tricker is able to achieve. However it seems to me that I would be paying lots for a phono stage whcih I don't need and the Tron premap does not have a volume remote (purists of course would scoff at the idea of having a remote on a Tron of course).


When you've made your selection, I'd love to hear your impressions of it, a full review. I too am shopping for a preamp. My present is a Parasound Halo 3. Lots of inputs, the internal phono sounds good, although I don't use it, balanced outs. Remote control! I hate to say that is my number one requirement. I have no use for a none remote unit. But it's not up to the rest of my gear, and I am completely overwhelmed at choosing a replacement. I've heard that a nice tube preamp can add much life to a solid state rig. I may venture in that direction next?



Certainly will do - but I tend to be slow in making decisions. Your Parasound looks great.

I already have valves in my audio path (the Radford STA25), I'm not so sure adding another valve item in my audio path will enhance things much.

[Edward]

Ok Edwardion, S2000MP preamp specs.

....
....

Compared with the ATC it is 'just a little different', and very difficult to describe usefully.
£450.

Thanks for that. Something to consider. To be fair I will not be rushing to a decision. Still in early research phase.

[Pharos]

I also have an AVI FM tuner Mk 1 which I do not need because I bought the Mk 2 which has other bands as well.

[lewis]

Indeed the GT Tron preamp seems to be lovingly built and I have nothing but good on the excellent sound Graham Tricker is able to achieve. However it seems to me that I would be paying lots for a phono stage whcih I don't need and the Tron premap does not have a volume remote (purists of course would scoff at the idea of having a remote on a Tron of course).



Certainly will do - but I tend to be slow in making decisions. Your Parasound looks great.

I already have valves in my audio path (the Radford STA25), I'm not so sure adding another valve item in my audio path will enhance things much.

FWIW the Tron is the line stage, and does not have a phono stage. The Tron is a top quality piece of kit, and although it sounds superb, i'm only selling because my dream preamp has become available, and should be a better match to my 861 power amp that i'm rather fond of
Paul (reffc) has a Tron / Radford combo that he is also rather fond of !

[hifinutt]

When you've made your selection, I'd love to hear your impressions of it, a full review. I too am shopping for a preamp. My present is a Parasound Halo 3. Lots of inputs, the internal phono sounds good, although I don't use it, balanced outs. Remote control! I hate to say that is my number one requirement. I have no use for a none remote unit. But it's not up to the rest of my gear, and I am completely overwhelmed at choosing a replacement. I've heard that a nice tube preamp can add much life to a solid state rig. I may venture in that direction next?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

if you can stretch to a modwright 9.0 swl anniversary they have exceptional build and sound great for half the money of its nearest American well know rival

[ianlenco]

I have an Emotiva xSP-1 pre amp which is quite excellent. I'm contemplating selling if you want to discuss. It has balanced and single ended outputs, separate variable sub outputs if needed and a rather good mm/mc phono stage. I don't know what stage you have but the Emotiva's might just give it a run for the money. More specs here.

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xsp-1

I would be looking for half your budget if I decide to sell.

Cheers, Ian

[alphaGT]

if you can stretch to a modwright 9.0 swl anniversary they have exceptional build and sound great for half the money of its nearest American well know rival

Now I have seen the Modwright for sale stateside quite often. That would not be hard to locate. Seems there is always at least one of them on Audiogon.


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[hifinutt]

well have a research into them as they have a very loyal following . I have had the 36.5 and the 36.5 dm [2 box version ] and currently have the anniversary on demo while mine is away . the back up from dan is exceptional

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=147158.0

[hifinutt]

some pics here


http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?50622-modwright-anniversary-SWL-9-0-pre-amp

[WESTLOWER]

Check out AD Audio (David Coe) of this parish (in Trade impressions section on AoS)
Makes stunningly amazing Pre Amps without or with phono stages.
I can vouch for the 'Satchmo' pre as I have just taken delivery of one which I commissioned
Truly remarkable for the sort of money you were talking about. For me the end game!
The beauty of this approach is He will listen to what your requirements are and your listening preferences
And match your power amps
https://adaudio.wordpress.com

[Bluedroog]

I'm considering selling my Croft 25 line pre-amp, owned from new. It doesn't have remote control but a module can be retrospectively fitted by a Croft dealer with blessing from the designer. Not quite sure on price yet but well within budget.

[hifinutt]

Check out AD Audio (David Coe) of this parish (in Trade impressions section on AoS)
Makes stunningly amazing Pre Amps without or with phono stages.
I can vouch for the 'Satchmo' pre as I have just taken delivery of one which I commissioned
Truly remarkable for the sort of money you were talking about. For me the end game!
The beauty of this approach is He will listen to what your requirements are and your listening preferences
And match your power amps
https://adaudio.wordpress.com

that's good to know , I do pay close attention to his posts on the wam under his title juancho . maybe a separate thread later with pics would be great of the satchmo

[WESTLOWER]

That's a good idea. I will do a full review with pictures of 'The Satchmo'
He's a great engineer..

[Edward]

So many great ideas. Particularly impressed with David Coe's ideas and philosophy. I may well contact him to price me a preamp. Looking forward to Westflower's review of his Satchmo.

Heard Modwright stuff at various shows and was impressed. Clarity, grip, engaging ....

The idea of getting a Croft Pre and retrofitting a remote is very appealing. The Emotiva looks very appealing.

Lots of ideas which I need to use to refine what type of preamp I really need/want. I'm inclining towards extreme simplicity. Something like 3 line level inputs and two parallel outputs (I have two power amps) and a remote just for volume/mute. But having more 'bells and whistles' would also be great. Too much choice in this hobby. :)

[WESTLOWER]

that's good to know , I do pay close attention to his posts on the wam under his title juancho . maybe a separate thread later with pics would be great of the satchmo

AD Audio (David Coe) Satchmo Pre Amplifier Review now on the Storkes of Genius thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51000-AD-AUDIO-SATCHMO-Pre-Amplifier&p=855964#post855964

[macvisual]

Check out the Promitheus Audio TVC passive pre-amp, excellent value for the money, not remote control. I recently bought one for a shade over £200, really excellent sounding...!!!


:)

[hifinutt]

AD Audio (David Coe) Satchmo Pre Amplifier Review now on the Storkes of Genius thread
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?51000-AD-AUDIO-SATCHMO-Pre-Amplifier&p=855964#post855964

thanks so much . i am still thoroughly enjoying my grandinote proemio pre though !!! sad to have to take it back to the dealer !!

[WESTLOWER]

sad to have to take it back to the dealer !!
Don't take it back then Phil!

[Chivas]

I used to own an Azur 840E, replaced it with an Icon Audio LA4mkii, a Pure Sound L10 followed. As good as the other two pre's were, the L10 was in a different league. I bought it for £1200 on Ebay and it was magnificent. The only reason why I replaced it with an Audio Note pre is because I was looking for a pre with an integrated phono stage.

The Tron is also a good suggestion


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hifinutt]

Don't take it back then Phil!

ah sadly its only mine while mine is away for repair and it costs 7.5k!!! i havn`t finished paying for the other one yet !

[Pharos]

I'm baffled by the exotica/esoterica, and the prices, and names I have never heard of.

I presume that the ownership of these preamps is based not on technical spec, but on what owners hear as superior sound.

[Macca]

If people bought pre-amps on technical spec they would all be using stepped attenuator passives...

Not many come with remote control option though.

[Dauntless]

If it was my money I wouldn't be looking at all these expensive so called Hi End designs which others have owned but are now for sale:) I would have a little look at the new Schiit Saga https://schiit.eu.com/preamps/Saga This Pre offers passive and active in one box and is yours brand new for £360.
HiFi World have reviewed it recently. You can try and if it's not for you return it. I myself have The Freya which includes XLR which with your valve amp you won't need but I prefer the balanced approach in my digital system.

[Arkless Electronics]

If people bought pre-amps on technical spec they would all be using stepped attenuator passives...

Not many come with remote control option though.

Plus it's the best pre it's possible to get!

[RothwellAudio]

Plus it's the best pre it's possible to get!

"Passive preamps lack dynamics" is the criticism I've heard on many occasions. I've never really understood this - it doesn't tally with my technical understanding or my listening experience. I can only assume that for a given position of the volume control most actives will be louder, and that is perceived as more dynamic.

[Macca]

People use the word 'dynamics' to mean all sorts of things that it doesn't so it is not easy to figure out what they are on about a lot of the time. That's before you get into 'micro dynamics' and 'dynamic contrasts'. My best guess is that it just doesn't sound 'right' to them without a bit of distortion.

edit forgot 'dynamic shading' as well

[Arkless Electronics]

People use the word 'dynamics' to mean all sorts of things that it doesn't so it is not easy to figure out what they are on about a lot of the time. That's before you get into 'micro dynamics' and 'dynamic contrasts'. My best guess is that it just doesn't sound 'right' to them without a bit of distortion.

edit forgot 'dynamic shading' as well


"Passive preamps lack dynamics" is the criticism I've heard on many occasions. I've never really understood this - it doesn't tally with my technical understanding or my listening experience. I can only assume that for a given position of the volume control most actives will be louder, and that is perceived as more dynamic.

Indeed yes that's my findings as well. It is of course impossible for a passive to reduce dynamics (it's impossible for any amplifier to reduce dynamics unless it's distorting).

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Plus it's the best pre it's possible to get!

Very wrong, ignorant of many other forms of attenuation, and thus misleading !

You need to use a compander capable of real time processing or
mono blocks or balanced audio or preferably all three, to hear the dynamics
contained in recordings.

Its a bit like holding a squashed tomato claiming
its a tomato, vs a normal one otherwise.

If you hear audio with all three, or even one, you can then start making much better
judgment calls, on one form of attenuation vs the other.

[RothwellAudio]

Very wrong, ignorant of many other forms of attenuation, and thus misleading !


There you go, Jez - that's you told. Didn't you know that balanced has two wires where single-ended has only one, so it's twice as dynamic? Looks like that squashed tomato is on yer face :lol:

[struth]

Can we cut out any niggling please. Ta

[Arkless Electronics]

There you go, Jez - that's you told. Didn't you know that balanced has two wires where single-ended has only one, so it's twice as dynamic? Looks like that squashed tomato is on yer face :lol:

Eee yeah and from such an "expert" hah!!

[WESTLOWER]

the OP wanted some recommendations for a Pre.... poor Chaps head must be spinning!:(

[Arkless Electronics]

the OP wanted some recommendations for a Pre.... poor Chaps head must be spinning!:(

Ok I recommend the exact thing he says he doesn't want which is a passive attenuator.... I'm using one with a Radford STA25 of a customers at the moment and it sounds amazing. Alternatively I can build a wide range of active line stages to order, there is more info on a specific valve hybrid pre in my trade area which is both active AND passive (it has separate active and passive outputs).

[hifinutt]

the OP wanted some recommendations for a Pre.... poor Chaps head must be spinning!:(

yes there is a lot of choice !!! but its so nice to see some very good vfm pre amps coming along like the satchmo and the schiit saga pre

[Pharos]

I cannot see how a resistor network (passive) can possibly change dynamics if the FR is flat.

It is conceivable though that an active produces artefacts which may add to the signal, increasing peaks, and hence appear to be giving a greater signal range, that is, dynamic range.

[Arkless Electronics]

I cannot see how a resistor network (passive) can possibly change dynamics if the FR is flat.

It is conceivable though that an active produces artefacts which may add to the signal, increasing peaks, and hence appear to be giving a greater signal range, that is, dynamic range.

As I said earlier it is not possible for an amplifier to change dynamics unless it is distorting. A passive can not change them at all as it never distorts. Only compression can occur and the this would have very obvious distortion with it. An amp running out of power and clipping is the most obvious example. If a 10W amp needs to produce 15W to reproduce the peaks well it can't do it so anything beyond 10W will be huge amounts of really nasty distortion rather than increased volume.

[ianlenco]

Can't argue with the fact that on the face of it a passive pre can't add distortion but aren't there other factors involved? For one, not all passives are equal and it seems that what's connected to the volume knob does make a difference, at least in price! i.e. all attenuators are not the same.
Second point is impedance matching. Over the years I've used three different passives, one home made and two commercial ones. The best result (to my ears) was when I got hold of a Nelson Pass B1 buffer which I believe (I'm definitely not an electronics expert) improves impedance matching between pre out and power in. This surely makes a difference?

[Arkless Electronics]

Once again like I said earlier... there is no such thing as impedance matching in hi fi and 90% + of the time it's actually resistive rather than impedance, at least at audio frequencies.

[Macca]

Can't argue with the fact that on the face of it a passive pre can't add distortion but aren't there other factors involved? For one, not all passives are equal and it seems that what's connected to the volume knob does make a difference, at least in price! i.e. all attenuators are not the same.
Second point is impedance matching. Over the years I've used three different passives, one home made and two commercial ones. The best result (to my ears) was when I got hold of a Nelson Pass B1 buffer which I believe (I'm definitely not an electronics expert) improves impedance matching between pre out and power in. This surely makes a difference?

in practical terms the one and only thing I have found to make any difference was the input sensitivity of the power amp. Jez or Mr Rothwell can give you chapter and verse on impedance matching.

[Macca]

Ah I see Jez already did.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Once again like I said earlier... there is no such thing as impedance matching in hi fi and 90% + of the time it's actually resistive rather than impedance, at least at audio frequencies.

Way too many misleading ( again ) generalizations:
A digital SPDIF or AES/EBU output input, is an example of an impedance matching network used in hifi.
Twisted pair interconnects match to usually 110 ohms and coax to 50-75 ohm , also used in hifi
A turntable cartridge has defined impedance matching to an RIAA network also used in hifi
A speaker has a defined impedance -often not matching to an amplifier but occasionally gets close -
ie Quad 303 and ESL57 also used in hifi, need I go on ?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

There you go, Jez - that's you told. Didn't you know that balanced has two wires where single-ended has only one, so it's twice as dynamic? Looks like that squashed tomato is on yer face :lol:

Balanced uses three wires called Hot, Cold and Ground , unbalanced two wires Signal and Ground
Balanced is generally agreed to improve the transfer of signal by 6db

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Eee yeah and from such an "expert" hah!!

My results speak for themselves: " One of the best preamps - full stop (and I heard a few) "

Cheers / Chris

[Pharos]

I think in any area of knowledge it is important to be able to distinguish the difference between a humble but knowledgable person expressing his views in a genuine, self effacing way, from those of an ignorant person, with a lack of confidence, being bullish about his knowledge.

With regard to distortion increasing dynamics, we can take a simple model and deduce the effects of distortion on dynamics.

If we take the example of a signal and introduce 1% distortion, a rather high level, (-40dB), the new signal level becomes 1.01/1 greater in magnitude. It is evident that this increase in level is very low in dB terms and probably undetectable to all.
(I do not have a charged up logs calculator to hand, but fro memory even 1.1/1 gives only about a 1dB level increase).

WRT clipping, of course that will produce odious distortion, well understood and documented, though on the HUG site there are claims that the distortion produced by valves under clipping conditions is mellifluous to some.

[Edward]

the OP wanted some recommendations for a Pre.... poor Chaps head must be spinning!:(

Thanks for the sympathy. :)

Lots of recommendations certainly. All very interesting. Surprised as to the range of costs. From cheap £150 passives to £10k all singing works of art.

I'll get there eventually.

. :goodthread:

[Pharos]

Perhaps Ark, you can explain what you think I am missing.

[RothwellAudio]

Perhaps Ark, you can explain what you think I am missing.
I think he's probably referring to you saying "take the example of a signal and introduce 1% distortion, a rather high level, (-40dB), the new signal level becomes 1.01/1 greater in magnitude". Distortion usually occurs because the signal cannot swing far enough, therefore squashing and reducing the waveform, rather than the waveform becoming greater in amplitude.

[RothwellAudio]

Balanced uses three wires called Hot, Cold and Ground , unbalanced two wires Signal and Ground
Yes, both single-ended and balanced connections have a ground wire - no surprise there. Where the single-end connection has one wire for the signal, balanced has two - which is what I said.

Balanced is generally agreed to improve the transfer of signal by 6db
Where a piece of equipment has a single-end output and a balanced output the balanced output is often 6dB higher than the single-ended. I don't think that's the same as improving the transfer of the signal by 6dB. In fact, I'm not sure what "improving the transfer of the signal by 6dB" actually means. A signal-to-noise ratio improvement, maybe?

[Arkless Electronics]

I think he's probably referring to you saying "take the example of a signal and introduce 1% distortion, a rather high level, (-40dB), the new signal level becomes 1.01/1 greater in magnitude". Distortion usually occurs because the signal cannot swing far enough, therefore squashing and reducing the waveform, rather than the waveform becoming greater in amplitude.

Spot on.

[Neil McCauley]

So a friend has lent me an Azur 840e preamp and I'm blown away. Really opened up the sound, increased dynamics, fluid, fast, natural, accurate, 3d etc.

Source is digital (mainly redbook FLAC) to a NOS DAC and power amp is newly built Radford Revival STA25s driving PMC LB1 Signatures.

The band is playing in front of me in my sitting room! :lol:

I need to return the Azur 840e at some point and don't fancy going back to the passive preamp I was using (nice that it is).

So what to get?

Only need 2 or 3 line level inputs (I already have a dedicated phono stage), ideally with remote control for volume. As good as or better than the Azur 840e.

Budget - variable - lets say up to £1k. New or preloved.

cheers

Hello. I am neither the owner nor the seller of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LFD-Linestage-LS1-Legendary-Preamplifier-/401301542164?roken=cUgayN BUT I do own one and can vouch for its first-rate performance (good value at the asking price) plus the fact that the maker can and does service anything he has ever built other than replacement chips for the DAC3 and the transport / display for the Mistral CD player. Finally, the LS1 can be maker-upgraded to an LS2 and possibly the LS3 too. Anyway, I hope this help. Good hunting. Neil.

[Edward]

Hello. I am neither the owner nor the seller of http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LFD-Linestage-LS1-Legendary-Preamplifier-/401301542164?roken=cUgayN BUT I do own one and can vouch for its first-rate performance (good value at the asking price) plus the fact that the maker can and does service anything he has ever built other than replacement chips for the DAC3 and the transport / display for the Mistral CD player. Finally, the LS1 can be maker-upgraded to an LS2 and possibly the LS3 too. Anyway, I hope this help. Good hunting. Neil.

Thanks Neil. Very interesting. Just had a quick look at see the maker (Richard Bews) seems highly regarded. His LS3 and anniversary pres are - um - expensive. :stalks:

Bit nervous buying from Poland though.

Anyway, let me look further.

[Neil McCauley]

Thanks Neil. Very interesting. Just had a quick look at see the maker (Richard Bews) seems highly regarded. His LS3 and anniversary pres are - um - expensive. :stalks:

Bit nervous buying from Poland though.

Anyway, let me look further.

Happy to help. In my direct personal experience with ebay in the event of a problem (providing you only use Paypal) in a dispute they ALWAYS take the side of the buyer. Until proven otherwise, the seller is always the default problem. A minimal risk as best i can judge. Bit different if the seller was in North Korea, but you never can tell. Neil

[anthonyTD]

A pasive working in a real world situation will only be as good as the matching of the impedances of both the source and power amp!
Also cable capacitance, type of cables, and the length of said cables will all have a marked affect on conventional passive attenuators.
So, taking these variables into account, IMHO, and from experience, the majority of folk who try a passive [conventional potentiometer, or switched attenuator] will not experience fully' the seemingly attractive merits of such simple attenuation...
As I said earlier it is not possible for an amplifier to change dynamics unless it is distorting. A passive can not change them at all as it never distorts. Only compression can occur and the this would have very obvious distortion with it. An amp running out of power and clipping is the most obvious example. If a 10W amp needs to produce 15W to reproduce the peaks well it can't do it so anything beyond 10W will be huge amounts of really nasty distortion rather than increased volume.

[Pharos]

Roth and Ark, I thought we were discussing Ark's assertion that distortion can appear to give greater dynamics.

I cannot see that clipping can do that, and indeed on another forum it was after a lengthy discussion with which I agree, far from increasing dynamics, that it does the reverse, it compresses.

[WESTLOWER]

I thought we were responding to the OP request for a pre heads up...

[Arkless Electronics]

Roth and Ark, I thought we were discussing Ark's assertion that distortion can appear to give greater dynamics.

I cannot see that clipping can do that, and indeed on another forum it was after a lengthy discussion with which I agree, far from increasing dynamics, that it does the reverse, it compresses.

OMG! I've been arguing the exact opposite from the beginning! And from a purely technical not subjective standpoint. And it's Mr Arkless to you Den!:D

[Arkless Electronics]

A pasive working in a real world situation will only be as good as the matching of the impedances of both the source and power amp!
Also cable capacitance, type of cables, and the length of said cables will all have a marked affect on conventional passive attenuators.
So, taking these variables into account, IMHO, and from experience, the majority of folk who try a passive [conventional potentiometer, or switched attenuator] will not experience fully' the seemingly attractive merits of such simple attenuation...

Whilst I disagree with everything you say the bit in bold I couldn't disagree more strongly with! THERE IS NO IMPEDANCE MATCHING OF ANY KIND! Impedance matching as such matters at RF where transmission lines of a certain characteristic impedance are matched to (usually) 50Ohms to give the best VSWR and to properly terminate filters etc. All that matters is that the source impedance is far lower than the load impedance. There is no magical figure where anything is in any way "matched".

[RothwellAudio]

Roth and Ark, I thought we were discussing Ark's assertion that distortion can appear to give greater dynamics.

I cannot see that clipping can do that, and indeed on another forum it was after a lengthy discussion with which I agree, far from increasing dynamics, that it does the reverse, it compresses.

This is speculation and guesswork but it may be possible that the brief clipping of transients can create the impression of enhanced dynamics by generating HF harmonics which give a sense of "bite" and more attack.
Yes, certainly gross and sustained clipping crushes dynamics but you have to have guitar fuzz box levels of distortion for that.

[anthonyTD]

Well,
Your perfectly entitled to your opinion, the same as I am, but as on many occasions, your black and white attitude wont discourage me, and I will continue to put my point across, whether you agree with it or not.:ner::D
Whilst I disagree with everything you say the bit in bold I couldn't disagree more strongly with! THERE IS NO IMPEDANCE MATCHING OF ANY KIND! Impedance matching as such matters at RF where transmission lines of a certain characteristic impedance are matched to (usually) 50Ohms to give the best VSWR and to properly terminate filters etc. All that matters is that the source impedance is far lower than the load impedance. There is no magical figure where anything is in any way "matched".

[Pharos]

First of all I apologise Arkless Electronics and Rothwell Audio if my abbreviations have caused offence; that was not intended,and perhaps a bit lazy of me.

In post 45 there seems on reflection to have been a divergence on the point being discussed.

You went on to talk about clipping, a subject I was not considering. I was thinking about distortion originating within an amplifier quite other than clipping, perhaps giving the impression of greater dynamics.

What I had in mind was the peculiar results I had with my old Nelson-Jones 10+10 on one particular track by Michael Hedges. Its effect was to somehow hype and increase the sense of attack of his guitar, and in a way I have never again heard on any other system. That may have been interpreted as sounding more dynamic.

Regarding impedance match, the standard used in telecoms and in broadcasting was 600 ohms, this from transmission line theory, but it may have changed. It was based on maximum power transfer theory and avoidance of standing waves and reflections. I remember drawing the Gaussian graph of power transfer at college.
We have 75 ohms for FM aerials.

I remember at that time, about '75, arguing with my telecoms lecturer when we introduced audio amplifiers into the source/load matching discussion, saying that with audio amplifiers we are not interested in power transfer from source to load, but that we are interested in voltage transfer to load, which we want to maximise.

I think your post 67 Rothwell Audio gives a very reasonable postulation, and it probably agrees with my 'Hedges experience'.

Punctuation can improve communication and reduce ambiguity.

[Macca]

Punctuation can improve communication and reduce ambiguity.

Indeed it can; in fact it is the sole reason it exists.

As I pointed out earlier when people use the word 'dynamics' they do not use it to mean 'dynamics' as in the text-book explanation, it is often used to have other meanings and is then as 'subjective' an expression as 'musicality'. So the fact that some people say that passives 'lack dynamics' does not mean they heard a lack of dynamics, but what they personally call dynamics, which could actually be anything.

If we don't mean the same thing with the same word then communication starts to become difficult. When technical terms are co-opted as general subjective descriptions the problem escalates. This is the source of many on line argument between two or more people who actually agree, they just don't realise they do.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well,
Your perfectly entitled to your opinion, the same as I am, but as on many occasions, your black and white attitude wont discourage me, and I will continue to put my point across, whether you agree with it or not.:ner::D

I wouldn't expect anything less Anthony! One of the great attractions to audio electronic engineering is that so little is actually 100% agreed on even by engineers and for all its seeming simplicity there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped!:)

[Marco]

One of the great attractions to audio electronic engineering is that so little is actually 100% agreed on even by engineers and for all its seeming simplicity there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped!:)

Well, perhaps some of those technically subtle "unwrapped layers", yet to be examined, contain the answers to audio phenomena some of us experience (and can clearly hear), but which you currently can't measure, and thus automatically dismiss as "bollocks"!

:ner: :flasher: :ner:

;)

Marco.

[anthonyTD]

:)
I wouldn't expect anything less Anthony! One of the great attractions to audio electronic engineering is that so little is actually 100% agreed on even by engineers and for all its seeming simplicity there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped!:)

[Arkless Electronics]

First of all I apologise Arkless Electronics and Rothwell Audio if my abbreviations have caused offence; that was not intended,and perhaps a bit lazy of me.

In post 45 there seems on reflection to have been a divergence on the point being discussed.

You went on to talk about clipping, a subject I was not considering. I was thinking about distortion originating within an amplifier quite other than clipping, perhaps giving the impression of greater dynamics.

What I had in mind was the peculiar results I had with my old Nelson-Jones 10+10 on one particular track by Michael Hedges. Its effect was to somehow hype and increase the sense of attack of his guitar, and in a way I have never again heard on any other system. That may have been interpreted as sounding more dynamic.

Regarding impedance match, the standard used in telecoms and in broadcasting was 600 ohms, this from transmission line theory, but it may have changed. It was based on maximum power transfer theory and avoidance of standing waves and reflections. I remember drawing the Gaussian graph of power transfer at college.
We have 75 ohms for FM aerials.

I remember at that time, about '75, arguing with my telecoms lecturer when we introduced audio amplifiers into the source/load matching discussion, saying that with audio amplifiers we are not interested in power transfer from source to load, but that we are interested in voltage transfer to load, which we want to maximise.

I think your post 67 Rothwell Audio gives a very reasonable postulation, and it probably agrees with my 'Hedges experience'.

Punctuation can improve communication and reduce ambiguity.

No problem Dennis:)

That's impedance matching yes. The now largely obsolete 600R was historically from "POTS" (plain old telephone system) and is also where we get the 0.775V 0VU standard from as it's 1mW into 600R. 75R is used in FM and TV as it's the centre impedance of a half wave dipole in free space. Mostly though 50R is used universally for RF.

An audio amp is a voltage source, ie theoretically zero output resistance, and therefore non of the generated power is dissipated in the source and all we need is to minimise the resistance of the wiring between source and load, power into the load is then of course Vsq/Rload

What you describe with the Nelson Jones (did you have the tuner as well?) has been commented upon several times over the years and could well be due to TID/TIM (a largely obsolete term these days and based on the work of Otala and Lohstro) causing a flurry of higher odd order distortion products on leading edges and hence enhancing the sense of attack... it's usually very fatiguing with longer exposure.

[Arkless Electronics]

Well, perhaps some of those technically subtle "unwrapped layers", yet to be examined, contain the answers to audio phenomena some of us experience (and can clearly hear), but which you currently can't measure, and thus automatically dismiss as "bollocks"!

:ner: :flasher: :ner:

;)

Marco.

It's possible... As it's possible the Loch Ness monster will be caught and put on display :ner: :D

[Marco]

Very wrong, ignorant of many other forms of attenuation, and thus misleading !


Sorry, Chris. Jez is normally pulled up for this, but the language there is too confrontational, and largely responsible for provoking the heated reaction that ensued.

Please, and this applies to everyone, when challenging and/or addressing someone you think is wrong, use language unlikely to irk or cause offence to the person concerned, as you'll achieve nothing but start an argument, and most likely not of the constructive kind either.

So, people, in future.........THINK before you type! Cheers :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

It's possible... As it's possible the Loch Ness monster will be caught and put on display :ner: :D

Or you banging an 18-year old blonde tonight! :lol:

Marco.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I wouldn't expect anything less Anthony! One of the great attractions to audio electronic engineering is that so little is actually 100% agreed on even by engineers and for all its seeming simplicity there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped!:)

You cannot as I see it have it both ways, in one post saying "there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped "
then a few minutes latter scoff at Marco's well thought out comment, by referring to technical subtlety and what remains to be discovered, as the Loch Ness Monster.

Discovery is at the heart of every good electronics engineers methods, Mediocrity on the other hand is at the heart of those unwilling to face challenges to progress. Which do you see yourself as ?

[Arkless Electronics]

Or you banging an 18-year old blonde tonight! :lol:

Marco.

That is unfortunately true :lol:

[Macca]

You cannot as I see it have it both ways, in one post saying "there is layer upon layer of technical subtlety to be unwrapped "
then a few minutes latter scoff at Marco's well thought out comment, by referring to technical subtlety and what remains to be discovered, as the Loch Ness Monster.

Discovery is at the heart of every good electronics engineers methods, Mediocrity on the other hand is at the heart of those unwilling to face challenges to progress. Which do you see yourself as ?

Chris that is confrontational in tone. This is how pointless slanging matches start instead of some interesting discussion.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Sorry, Chris. Jez is normally pulled up for this, but the language there is too confrontational, and largely responsible for provoking the heated reaction that ensued.

Please, and this applies to everyone, when challenging and/or addressing someone you think is wrong, use language unlikely to irk or cause offence to the person concerned, as you'll achieve nothing but start an argument, and most likely not of the constructive kind either.

So, people, in future.........THINK before you type! Cheers :cool:

Marco.

Hi Marco
My post was referring to other forms of attenuation - when there are many, not being considered by Jez,
But take your point to be civil,... will do my best

Cheers / Chris

[Marco]

Cheers, Chris. Civility is the key! :thumbsup:

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Thread locked?

[Marco]

Discovery is at the heart of every good electronics engineers methods, Mediocrity on the other hand is at the heart of those unwilling to face challenges to progress. Which do you see yourself as ?

Sorry Chris, that's not in the spirit of what you've just promised.

How would you respond if Jez had directed that at you? [Rhetorical question, btw]. If you guys have a problem with each other, please take it to PM, where you can 'go at it' until your heart's content, but it won't be allowed on the open forum.

Marco.

[Marco]

Thread locked?

Just a mistake, mate. Please read my last reply to Chris. I'd be obliged if you didn't respond and escalate the situation.

Let's 'cool the jets', folks, and get back to discussing the topic of the thread, by playing the BALL, not the man. Anything other that will simply be removed without further warning.

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Ah it's working again... At least the temporary lock meant I saw the moderators comments and cancelled my "both barrels, loaded for bison" riposte :D

[Arkless Electronics]

Just a mistake, mate. Please read my last reply to Chris. I'd be obliged if you didn't respond and escalate the situation.

Let's 'cool the jets', folks, and get back to discussing the topic of the thread, by playing the BALL, not the man. Anything other that will simply be removed without further warning.

Marco.

:cool: ;)

[Edward]

So as the original OP I feel guilty of opening a thread that potentially gets locked. I ought to have known better. :lol::doh::)

No seriously guys it is all very interesting and educational. Lots of the discussion seems to revolve around the electrical characteristics of preamps. Unfortunately I did not pay too much attention when I was being taught this stuff at school (no doubt as I was paying too much attention to the girls in the class). :eek:

So, what would be the "perfect" preamp? Or is it the case that some preamps work in some situations and other in other situations? How would one go about navigating what potentially is a "good" preamp from the specs alone? Or at least narrow things down a bit as clearly it is not possible to audition every preamp.

[Macca]

Edward, what passive pre-amp do you use at the moment? Sorry if you already said somewhere way back.

[Edward]

Edward, what passive pre-amp do you use at the moment? Sorry if you already said somewhere way back.

A Tisbury Martin.

[hifinutt]

So as the original OP I feel guilty of opening a thread that potentially gets locked. I ought to have known better. :lol::doh::)

No seriously guys it is all very interesting and educational. Lots of the discussion seems to revolve around the electrical characteristics of preamps. Unfortunately I did not pay too much attention when I was being taught this stuff at school (no doubt as I was paying too much attention to the girls in the class). :eek:

So, what would be the "perfect" preamp? Or is it the case that some preamps work in some situations and other in other situations? How would one go about navigating what potentially is a "good" preamp from the specs alone? Or at least narrow things down a bit as clearly it is not possible to audition every preamp.

there is no perfect pre amp . some want incredible transparency like this person

http://hifipig.com/music-first-audio-baby-reference-v2-tvc-preamplifier/

others want different attributes like more sense of presence or drive or some other presentation . its all down to taste

[WESTLOWER]

So.... did the OP ascertain a pre amp route he'd like to explore or does his head hurt as much as mine...?

[Pharos]

From Jez;
" What you describe with the Nelson Jones (did you have the tuner as well?) has been commented upon several times over the years and could well be due to TID/TIM (a largely obsolete term these days and based on the work of Otala and Lohstro) causing a flurry of higher odd order distortion products on leading edges and hence enhancing the sense of attack... it's usually very fatiguing with longer exposure. "

I didn't have the tuner. Your explanation seems entirely likely to identify the cause, and it was designed well before the TIM phase of the 80s.
It also had three coupling capacitors in the signal path, and later everyone went direct coupling.

In general I see nothing wrong with confrontation, but it should be polite, and addressed specifically at the sustaining of an argument, not about the person.

The Ad Hominem interaction is upsetting and a waste of time and energy, but a little adversarial requesting of substantiation is how we progress.

How people know whether or not something is transparent I cannot fathom. They may well hear something which they interpret to be transparent, but it may be just a favourable mellifluousness, which I think so much supposed improvement can be. Sometimes transparent sounds awful, because it is transparent to source.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

So as the original OP I feel guilty of opening a thread that potentially gets locked. I ought to have known better. :lol::doh::)

No seriously guys it is all very interesting and educational. Lots of the discussion seems to revolve around the electrical characteristics of preamps. Unfortunately I did not pay too much attention when I was being taught this stuff at school (no doubt as I was paying too much attention to the girls in the class). :eek:

So, what would be the "perfect" preamp? Or is it the case that some preamps work in some situations and other in other situations? How would one go about navigating what potentially is a "good" preamp from the specs alone? Or at least narrow things down a bit as clearly it is not possible to audition every preamp.

The perfect preamp, if audio quality is perfection , is a variable attenuator and not an amplifier.
as amplification always involves some measure of distortion.

It relies on the source component having sufficient voltage / current ability
to be attenuated, but not amplified.

It relies on the power amplifier to have sensible sensitivity and resistive loading to ground

It Removes the mechanical wiping of contact or contacts, also a source of distortion.

It supplies sufficient inputs and arranges input switching in a contact less manner

It has DC circuitry that works in harmony with the variable resistive parts

It does not allow DC ground to be signal ground lessening the inherent isolation
of the device.

It can work in balanced or unbalanced audio systems.

[jandl100]

Well, going back to the OP ....


So a friend has lent me an Azur 840e preamp and I'm blown away. Really opened up the sound, increased dynamics, fluid, fast, natural, accurate, 3d etc.

..... The band is playing in front of me in my sitting room! :lol:


What more do you want than the band playing in front of you? ;)

Buy an Azur 840e on eBay or elsewhere. You know you like it - and you probably don't know what any other of the things that are being suggested sound like in your system.
Just looked and there are none on eBay at the moment, but I'm sure they come along every now & then.
Sorted. :)

A mistake I've made before is hearing something I liked, then getting the "better" version. Or getting the original and then "upgrading". Nope, it doesn't always work out that way!

[Macca]

A Tisbury Martin.

Tisbury was the first passive I tried, Jerry lent me his one. A revelation in some ways but also soft, lacking in bass and drive. It is good for the money but outclassed in your system, you have one of the best valve power amps ever made, after all.

I've also heard the full Cambridge Azur top of the range system, Cd player, pre and power at a demo. It was not objectionable but it was a bit 'meh'. For over £4K (including some MS floorstanders) it was disappointing.

As said up thread somewhere all passives are not created equal although the good ones have little between them, as you'd expect. Don't take your experience of the passive and active pre-amps you have tried so far to be universal, as it isn't. Really good active pre-amps are expensive and I would not put the Cambridge in the 'really good' bracket, not by some margin.

[walpurgis]

If I wanted a preamplifier to use with a Radford, I think I'd probably be looking towards something from Nelson Pass or Music First Audio.

[jandl100]

Yes, the Tisbury is very decent.
I agree with Martin that it is a bit soft and smoothed over and also a bit coloured in a pleasantly rose-tinted way, I think.
But at the time and in the right system context I prefered it to a Glasshouse stepped attenuator passive.
The Glasshouse was more transparent and resolved. The Tisbury was more enjoyable to listen to, imo. Synergy as well as personal preference is crucial!

By no means should you judge all passives on the basis of experience with the Tisbury. The dang things all sound different!

Personally, after much experience with all sorts of pre-amps active and passive, I prefer active. That's just my preference.

[Macca]

Personally, after much experience with all sorts of pre-amps active and passive, I prefer active. That's just my preference.

Yes, what is technically better isn't really relevant once we get into what we prefer. I know there are a few people on here, not just Jerry, who have tried the best passive has to offer and still prefer active. Technical proficiency is no use whatsoever if you just don't like what you are hearing, or what you are hearing is not the sound you were looking for.

[walpurgis]

Personally, after much experience with all sorts of pre-amps active and passive, I prefer active. That's just my preference.

Opposite here. Having owned many active and passive pre-amps, I've settled with my MingDa MC-9 TVC unit. I had been using a Forte Model 2 and a VTL Deluxe (which I still have), but the MingDa thrashed them.

Still got a hankering for another vintage Rappaport Pre-2 though! That was a great pre-amp. I used one for about twenty years. It took the VTL Deluxe to beat it.

[jandl100]

Opposite here.

Of course.
I think we disagree on most things audio. :lol:

[anthonyTD]

Back on track then,:)
For the OP,
I will share my own ideas of what I deemed as the nearest I could come up with as the perfect preamp for me at the time, which by the way’ I still use in my own system today.
The preamp was designed to compliment the power amps I was building at the time.
These are the attributes I decided were most important, and achievable.
Wide band-width.
Near Perfect stereo matching between channels at all levels of attenuation, and frequencies.
Low noise.
High build quality.
Directly coupled circuitry throughout
Input impedance fixed ie; not affected by attenuator.
Low Output impedance, again that wasn’t affected by attenuation at any position,. circuitry that was capable of driving all types of cables and lengths [realistically]
Without serious drive, and bandwidth limitations.

[RothwellAudio]

Well, going back to the OP ....

What more do you want than the band playing in front of you? ;)

Buy an Azur 840e on eBay or elsewhere. You know you like it - and you probably don't know what any other of the things that are being suggested sound like in your system.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Having found a preamp he likes, why wouldn't the OP just buy one of those?

[anthonyTD]

Exactly!
This makes a lot of sense to me. Having found a preamp he likes, why wouldn't the OP just buy one of those?

[Firebottle]

These are the attributes I decided were most important, and achievable.
Wide band-width.
Near Perfect stereo matching between channels at all levels of attenuation, and frequencies.
Low noise.
High build quality.
Directly coupled circuitry throughout
Input impedance fixed ie; not affected by attenuator.
Low Output impedance, again that wasn’t affected by attenuation at any position,. circuitry that was capable of driving all types of cables and lengths [realistically]
Without serious drive, and bandwidth limitations.

The perfect preamp ........almost ;)

It needs a Valve in it :D

[anthonyTD]

:eek::)
The perfect preamp ........almost ;)

It needs a Valve in it :D

[Edward]

Just to update this thread as I feel I have left it hanging in mid air having originally started it.

Thanks all for all the recommendations and suggestions. Absolutely amazing diverse range of options. Nearly went for the Emotiva that was for sale (since sold I see). What I had forgotten to do is contact Will at Radford Revival for his thoughts seeing that I already have one of his wonderful STA25s.

Anyway upshot is that Will is going to send me one of his prototype preamps to try out. Judging from the feedback he received already (another thread here on Aos), what Will mentioned to me recently as well as the world class quality of his products I'm really keen to see if his preamp gets me to where I want to be. I'll start a new thread once I get the unit and gain some impressions.

If it all works out I will have to convince Will to get some fancy new casework (I love the look of the AR Ref 6 case!) as well as retrofitting remote attenuation. Maybe something that has the same look as the STA25?

[hifinutt]

ah that's fantastic , sounds like a wonderful plan . keep us posted

[Radford Revival]

:)

[ekfc63]

A Teddy Pardo PR1 replaced my Naim 52/Supercap. Don't miss the Naim gear one bit. Given the new price of the PR1 (1k sterling) it has to be a bargain.