View Full Version : Direct drive vs Idler drive vs. belt drive: Which is the "right" path?
Lots of ink has been devoted defending or attacking the three major turntable design principles, namely belt drive, idler drive and direct drive. Many of us may have already taken sides, having a clear preference. For the rest of us, who are still trying to make up our mind, what do you think are the pros and cons of each design?
Please, correct me if I am wrong, but the prominent choices IMHO are as follows:
Belt drive: countless; I am not getting in trouble to mention any.
Idler drive: Garrard, Lenco, Thorens, (other?)
Direct drive: Technics SP10, Denon DP80, 70, Kenwood, Sony, etc.
Which is the design principle that can provide the best sound quality, theoretically and in practice?
Cheers,
Panos
paulf-2007
17-04-2017, 13:09
Not aware of a technics idler, Thorens yes.
Direct drive always bang on speed from cold is a pro ime.
Ammonite Audio
17-04-2017, 13:38
There are good and bad examples of all drive types in record players, so there is no 'right path'. Rotational speed accuracy is but one consideration when it comes to designing a good record player; also let's not forget that superb published W&F figures for many direct drive decks conceal micro speed variations that are musically destructive (the brain is very sensitive indeed to small timing anomalies), so the supposed technical advantages of direct drive are not necessarily what they might seem on paper. I reckon that it is easier to design a good sounding belt driven deck than one with direct drive; and certainly easier than making an idler truly quiet, which is why most decks are belt driven. I further reckon that the record players that truly work in the musical sense are those that successfully address internal and external acoustic energy management, as well as having a stable drive.
For what it's worth, the two decks that I use are a Kenwood KD-990 (direct drive) and a Thorens TD-124 Mk2 (idler drive). The two are not a million miles apart in terms of musical performance, but the silence of the Kenwood is lovely. The Thorens plays music way better than something so complicated has any right to, once set up carefully and fitted with a good tonearm.
It's all Horses for Courses :)
CornishPasty
17-04-2017, 14:48
Kenwood also made a couple of nice idlers. I'm pretty sure one them was a copy of the Thorens TD124 hybrid. I have one of the others without the belt. No cast alloy chassis just plain pressed steel. I would imagine they would have been dirt cheap back in the day. I seem to remember Pioneer had something similar just before they marketed the PL12. I sometimes wonder if Kenwood, Pioneer and a few other bought these in and badged them up.
Not aware of a technics idler, Thorens yes.
Direct drive always bang on speed from cold is a pro ime.
Paul, you seem to own a DP80, a legendary DD turntable. In case you have experience with other belt-drive and idler-drive TTs, how would you rate your DD turntable against them? I am particularly interested in sound quality.
Thanks,
P.
...also let's not forget that superb published W&F figures for many direct drive decks conceal micro speed variations that are musically destructive (the brain is very sensitive indeed to small timing anomalies), so the supposed technical advantages of direct drive are not necessarily what they might seem on paper...
It's all Horses for Courses :)
Hugo, I see where you are coming from with respect to speed micro-anomalies. But if DDs cannot eliminate such anomalies, can belt-drive and idler-drive TTs do it better?
Although you imply that belt-drive decks can have an advantage over idlers and DDs, however, you have personally the latter two.. :)
Cheers,
P.
Recently threw out an old (bought it new though) TT from early 70's.
It was an Idler design. In storage for years, the Idler rubber developed a huge dent in it.
Unworkable and unfixable. I binned it.
Someone else 'might' have repaired it..given enough time and determination.. wasn't going to be me tho.
IMO Extra parts have a downside.
Recently threw out an old (bought it new though) TT from early 70's.
It was an Idler design. In storage for years, the Idler rubber developed a huge dent in it.
Unworkable and unfixable. I binned it.
Someone else 'might' have repaired it..given enough time and determination.. wasn't going to be me tho.
IMO Extra parts have a downside.
Sound like it had been stored with the speed selector engaged - something one should never do, be it cameras, reel-to-reel tape decks or turntables.
paulf-2007
17-04-2017, 17:44
Only owned two belt drives, a transrotor based diy tt, transrotor bearing and platter and origin live motor in a very heavy pod with spikes , free standing, ok but just didn't do it for me. The other a revolver, nothing special at all, heard many belt drives, none had that great bass and timing. Three idlers, Garrard 401 in two tier oak plinth, Collaro 2010 in two tier oak plinth and Lenco ptp in a heavy ply plinth, all very nice, good bass and detail retrieval but the DP80 does it all right.
Heard a voyd with fairly special arm, can't remember the make with strain gauge cartridge, laid back snoozeville.
DP80, for me has superb detail retrieval, great bass clarity, excellent timing, can't ever see me changing it.
paulf-2007
17-04-2017, 17:49
Paul, you seem to own a DP80, a legendary DD turntable. In case you have experience with other belt-drive and idler-drive TTs, how would you rate your DD turntable against them? I am particularly interested in sound quality.
Thanks,
P.i see you are in Greece, there is a fella there that rebuilt a DP80 with an aluminum and stainless steel plinth. Plinth was CNC cut by a company in Greece, they now make their own audio gear and tt's I think. Search diy audio for monsterizing a dp80.
Only owned two belt drives, a transrotor based diy tt, transrotor bearing and platter and origin live motor in a very heavy pod with spikes , free standing, ok but just didn't do it for me. The other a revolver, nothing special at all, heard many belt drives, none had that great bass and timing. Three idlers, Garrard 401 in two tier oak plinth, Collaro 2010 in two tier oak plinth and Lenco ptp in a heavy ply plinth, all very nice, good bass and detail retrieval but the DP80 does it all right.
Heard a voyd with fairly special arm, can't remember the make with strain gauge cartridge, laid back snoozeville.
DP80, for me has superb detail retrieval, great bass clarity, excellent timing, can't ever see me changing it.
Thanks for the very interesting feedback, Paul.
As a matter of fact, I have also been considering a PTP idler (directly from Peter), but before taking the plunge, I thought I should investigate alternatives as well, e.g. Garrard 401 and direct-drives (DP80, Technics SP10MkII, other?). If you are kind enough, I would be most interested in a more detailed description of the comparison of Garrard 401, PTP idler and the DP80.
Perhaps you would like to share some photos of your DP80 (obviously you must have had a custom-built plinth).
Thanks in advance.
P.
i see you are in Greece, there is a fella there that rebuilt a DP80 with an aluminum and stainless steel plinth. Plinth was CNC cut by a company in Greece, they now make their own audio gear and tt's I think. Search diy audio for monsterizing a dp80.
Yes, I am aware of the article you mentioned (Monsterizing the DP80) and that the designer/builder is in Athens, Greece. I will try to contact him, as I am really interested in his work. I understand he has rebuilt at least two DP80, with a few years apart.
... also let's not forget that superb published W&F figures for many direct drive decks conceal micro speed variations that are musically destructive (the brain is very sensitive indeed to small timing anomalies), so the supposed technical advantages of direct drive are not necessarily what they might seem on paper.
Yeah, I worry about that all the time... Keeps me up at night regularly ;)
Marco.
Ammonite Audio
17-04-2017, 19:42
Yeah, I worry about that all the time... Keeps me up at night regularly ;)
Marco.
Now now! I wasn't naming any particular deck there!
Hugo, I see where you are coming from with respect to speed micro-anomalies. But if DDs cannot eliminate such anomalies, can belt-drive and idler-drive TTs do it better?
Although you imply that belt-drive decks can have an advantage over idlers and DDs, however, you have personally the latter two..
Cheers,
P.
Direct drive, when done properly can and does overcome such anomalies. Just look at the lab test results for the new Technics (and the old SP10 for that matter). It is possible to get superb results in terms of speed stability from belt drive too but I suspect that the engineering and cost involved to achieve that is very significant, once it reaches the retailer. Clever engineering and precise control can make a belt driven deck powered by the ubiquitous and inexpensive Premotec AC synchronous motor every bit as good as something like the new Technics, as Simon (sq225917) proved with his hybrid Kuzma/Linn deck, evidenced in the rotational speed polar plots over at PFM.
I own and use DD and idler decks solely because they turned out to be excellent record players by any standard, not because I was specifically drawn to either drive method. The TD-124 was bought after hearing a friend's deck, but it took years of fiddling, fettling and expensive upgrades to make it truly excellent. The Kenwood KD-990 was bought on a whim, but what a result, and I do still run it 'naked' without its plinth! The KD-990 has the superb rotational speed stability that is characteristic of the best direct drive decks, but with a lyrical and musical nature that I have only encountered with one other DD deck at home: the lovely Pioneer PL-71 from the early 70s which pre-dated quartz servo control circuitry. There's a clue to one element of musicality there - the brain is relatively insensitive to minor but slow pitch variations over, say, a couple of platter revolutions, but it is incredibly sensitive to minor pitch variations occurring within a fraction of a second), so the antique and very analogue speed control circuitry of the old PL-71 is very much a Good Thing. Various Japanese manufacturers have since succeeded in making quartz locked servo controlled motors that do work as well, but identifying a good one from a random list of 'direct drive' decks is impossible. I suspect that an Exclusive P3A would be a good one.
Ultimately, the drive method is but one ingredient in the complicated cocktail that goes to make up a truly great record player.
Now now! I wasn't naming any particular deck there!
Ha... For a secondo, amigo, I thought you were damning all D/Ds with having the same 'disease'! ;)
Marco.
I own and use DD and idler decks solely because they turned out to be excellent record players by any standard, not because I was specifically drawn to either drive method. The TD-124 was bought after hearing a friend's deck, but it took years of fiddling, fettling and expensive upgrades to make it truly excellent.
I would be very interested to know what you have done to your TD124 to make it "truly excellent", or is proprietary knowledge?
Ammonite Audio
17-04-2017, 21:05
I would be very interested to know what you have done to your TD124 to make it "truly excellent", or is proprietary knowledge?
There's no secret - most of it has been discussed over at PFM. Not necessarily in any particular order, the important work has included:
Decent solid plinth from Jim Campbell
Motor rebuild by Martin Bastin
Variable AC controller from Martin Bastin
New top platter from Swissonor to replace bent original
Swissonor non-magnetic ferrous platter
Schopper main bearing (not sure that was worth the money)
Idler wheel and stepped pulley bushings replaced (stepped pulley bushes do make a racket when worn)
Learning how to refurbish original Thorens idler wheels to make them quiet-ish. I've never bought a brand new idler that was any good.
Hanze HiFi motor spring mounts (excellent things that really do work better than the rubber grommets)
Keystrobe LED strobe conversion - great clarity and works independently of supply frequency, so I can tweak speed using the frequency control on the Bastin supply while using the platter strobe as my reference.
Hardwood arm boards are best. Plywood ones don't work for me. Graphite most definitely does not work for me (anyone wish to buy a graphite TD-124 armboard cut for a Rega arm?)
The FR64S arm is a great match for the TD-124
Isolate the thing properly from the support structure, eg with a Townshend Seismic Platform or Seismic Pods.
All of which has added up to quite a lot of cash! When I get my new Reed 3P tonearm which will go on the KD-990, I'll move the FR64S back onto the Thorens for mono duties.
The KD-990 has required no additional expenditure except for one Achromat and a few custom arm bases from Speedy Steve. The TD-124 is one classic bit of kit that I'll never sell, though. It has its faults, but it plays music beautifully and its faults are soon ignored. I still don't understand how something so weirdly complicated can sound so good, but that just reinforces what I said earlier - a good record player is the sum of its parts and the drive method does not alone define how it sounds.
walpurgis
17-04-2017, 21:09
a good record player is the sum of its parts and the drive method does not alone define how it sounds.
I agree.
RothwellAudio
17-04-2017, 21:57
There are pros and cons to each type of drive - if one was clearly superior to the others it would have been universally adopted long ago.
Belt drives have the advantage of being compatible with suspended sub-chassis designs (because the compliance of the belt allows movement of the sub-chassis) so getting very good isolation between the platter and the motor is possible, and that means very low noise breakthrough from the motor. The disadvantage is that the elasticity of the belt allows the varying drag on the stylus (from the varying music content) to vary the platter speed.
Non-suspended turntables with belt drive have pretty much the same pros and cons but with less ability to isolate motor noise.
Idler drives don't have the elasticity of a belt so can maintain the torque on the platter and keep the speed more constant. However, there's more chance of motor noise (or other vibrations) being transmitted to the platter via the idler wheel.
Direct drives... er... I don't know a great deal about direct drives. Sorry. And it was all going so well... :doh:
walpurgis
17-04-2017, 22:06
I think we should explore alternatives. Clockwork? Or maybe gas turbine perhaps? :scratch: ;)
Arkless Electronics
17-04-2017, 22:11
I think we should explore alternatives. Clockwork? Or maybe gas turbine perhaps? :scratch: ;)
PRaT & Whitney?
walpurgis
17-04-2017, 22:29
Nuclear perhaps :eek:
Ah. I think you've hit on it Grant. Nuclear steam turbine! That'll do it!!
Ah. I think you've hit on it Grant. Nuclear steam turbine! That'll do it!!
Yeah, I remember when they said in 10 years we will all have a mini nuclear generator at bottom of garden and have free power for life...:lol:
Steam is the way forward https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSiVWkk5zaQ
Another point re belt drive is the quality of the belts,the round section belts on a VPI I had were awful,just a length of round section rubber with a blob of glue at the joint and as for using fishing line tied with a granny knot !!!
My Basis was purchased 2nd hand,so thought it would be prudent to replace the belt,ordered one from LP gear and the quality was terrible with lots of small blobs of rubber on both sides which you could feel by running your finger over them.Basis make their own belts but at £200 it seemed extortionate to me,short long story,I managed to pick a new one up on another forum for £60.This new belt made marked improvement to every parameter of the SQ.
OK I am probably biased,but this link makes good engineering sense to me. https://www.basisaudio.com/revolution-belt/
RothwellAudio
19-04-2017, 09:17
OK I am probably biased,but this link makes good engineering sense to me. https://www.basisaudio.com/revolution-belt/
That's a great link - thanks.
Yeah, I worry about that all the time... Keeps me up at night regularly ;)
Marco.
Marco,
another idler devotee has mentioned (not in this forum) that motor-"cogging" of direct-drive turntables negatively affects sound stage and imaging. What do you think? Is cogging a fact with all dd-motors or this phenomenon exists only with some motors and not with others?
Cheers,
Panos
I'm with Paulf on this, I'vve had Lenco, 401, Rega, and a Voyd 3 motor amongst others. I now have a Micro Seiki which I got on a whim because of the looks and to avoid the curse of springy suspension and clumsy hands, and to try d/d out as I've never owned one. I just can't fault it, don't hear this cogging thing or any instability issues of any kind, it delivers a fantastic soundstage and natural imaging, can support three arms at once, and very much doubt I'll ever buy another turntable to supplant it (though I will try others what with being a bit of a gear slut). Sure there are better out there, but I don't need better than this :thumbsup:
paulf-2007
22-04-2017, 17:26
I'm with Paulf on this, I'vve had Lenco, 401, Rega, and a Voyd 3 motor amongst others. I now have a Micro Seiki which I got on a whim because of the looks and to avoid the curse of springy suspension and clumsy hands, and to try d/d out as I've never owned one. I just can't fault it, don't hear this cogging thing or any instability issues of any kind, it delivers a fantastic soundstage and natural imaging, can support three arms at once, and very much doubt I'll ever buy another turntable to supplant it (though I will try others what with being a bit of a gear slut). Sure there are better out there, but I don't need better than this :thumbsup:hallo mate, nice to hear you are still kicking.
Q: Direct drive vs Idler drive vs. belt drive: Which is the "right" path?
A: Yes.
In other words, buy them all - be happy. Buy more than one version of any technology - have fun. Almost like asking which is the most beautiful woman in the world. Isn't it much more fun finding out for yourself? Surely the journey is the point? :)
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