Dedicated mains: separate thread for Blackadder!

[TheFlash]

In thread on linear PSU for NAS, mains noise is discussed and I mentioned my dedicated mains radial. Blackadder asked for info on the project.
I don't particularly want to get into a debate about the merits of doing this at all - it's my money and it's done and there are other threads you can read if you think it's all foolery! - but wanted to share the info to save others time investigating cable specs, cable trunking, consumer boards etc.

Please excuse refs to two other forums, save me much typing. And apologies for any weird fonts as I've cut and pasted to collate this on my phone as my chauffeur/wife negotiates the traffic jams en route to Kendal.

Extract from an initial post I made on AVForums:
It seems there are 3 basic ways of improving the source of whatever system one may have. There are nuances to each of these I'm sure but this is a complex enough topic so bear with me if I simplify. In ascending order of impact:
1) Replace standard switched sockets with hospital or industrial grade unswitched ones, eliminating an unnecessary link in the chain (the switch) and getting a tighter grip by the socket on the plug. (A sub-option here is to to runs spur off an existing socket to give you 4 or 6 such higher grade ones but the electricity is still shared with the rest of your house in the same way).
2) Run a Dedicated Radial Circuit from existing Consumer Unit (typically the thing with fuses in it which comes just after the meter) using similar high quality unswitched sockets. This moves any "contamination" from other domestic apparatus as far away from your hi-fi as possible and thereby minimises the impact at the business end.
3) Install a dedicated Hi-Fi Ring Main which starts with a dedicated Hi-Fi Consumer Unit wired after the meter (of course!) and in parallel with domestic Consumer Unit. This is described and drawn on the following page from Russ Andrews: Fitting a Hi-Fi ring main. In theory this completely isolates your system from any mains-transferred noise, leaving any contamination to come more locally through poor location of cables, inappropriate shielding or whatever.
Does this basically make sense as a ranking?
_____________

And later post same thread:
An update. My dedicated mains was installed last week: Schneider consumer board/components, 4mm cable throughout, routed externally in galvanised shielding into two radial (one for AV, one for HiFi) unswitched silver plated double sockets.
_______________
_______________

See also post #50 in this thread on HiFiWigwam which even includes extract from the invoice for the bits...

http://hifiwigwam.com/forum/index.php?/topic/100256-The-efficacy-of-mains-conditioners%3F&share_type=t

Nigel

[The Black Adder]

Many thanks, Nigel.

I'll have a look in to it. I'm just interested in knowing which way is best for bang for pound really. I've wanted to get it done for years and Marco also has some ideas to which should be interesting.

I'll get some details on what I'd need in my case later. I've been quoted for some work by my local electrician but what you have put it looks a bit more indepth than what I've been quoted for.

Any more ideas would be smashing.

[danilo]

Years ago.. when my house was being constructed. I had dedicated wirings with their own direct feeds/breakers fitted to my intended listening room.
Seemed as sensible and no plausible reason beyond cost, not to.
Years later, I experimentally powered my system from an extension cord from another room. Just to test the theory.
Absolutely NO audible differences apparent. Bit crestfallen by that.
So much for theories.
That said; Electricity in my part of the world is notably clean /consistent.
Tread lightly.

[The Black Adder]

Thanks, Danilo. :)

Does anyone have a diagram or something to what I would need to do ideally?

I just need to know whats involved?

What I have is a Wirelex consumer board and although it's quite old it's quite expensive to replace. Not only that but the house could (ideally) need a re-wire but let's not go in to that.

I've had a technician/sparky round and he said that because there is a spare (RCD) blank on the main board I could use that for the hifi. But from what I've seen is that others doing this have a separate consumer unit running from the meter?

Using the existing board would use the house earth and no separate earthing rod. He said that would be VERY expensive.

Also, because this would be a radial circuit can I use 15Amp round pin plug socket on the hifi end? I've heard this is okay?

Thanks
Jo

[Pharos]

B A, the use of 15A plugs is good, but beware the safety implications.

I use 5A ones after the wall outlet, on my distribution boards, because their connections are much better than square pin 13A ones.

It is hard to accept that special mains routes minimising source impedance can be of a real benefit because most equipment has a power supply containing storage caps which will provide the energy on peaks of drive/demand.

The best analogue I can think of is the mains trickle being like a slowly pouring pipe-flow of water into a reservoir barrel, and the equipment's demands being like us sporadically turning on and off the tap on the barrel.

The demand we place is 'insulated' from the source pipe, because extreme demands from our tap turning are easily fed by the reservoir in the bucket, changing little its provision ability.

[alphaGT]

Having a separate breaker box from the house, parallel to the breaker box for the house, does give it equal distribution of power. But doesn't completely isolate it from electrical disturbances in the parallel box. I have heard of filtered panel boxes, in fact at a company I worked for they had a large metal box on the floor about a meter long and 20cm tall, a giant transformer with coils and caps the size of coffee cans inside. It was between the main supply and the special computer room panel box. This prevented any electrical irregularities in the building from affecting anything in the computer room, and visa verse. To make it worth all the extra expense of routing all this extra wire, panels and breakers, top quality outlets, etc. one may as well pop the extra for such a filter from the onset, and get the most from such a project. True isolation. I've read about an Audiophile who built a shed outside that had a bank of batteries that could power his system for probably days, it had a huge inverter that could supply ten times the demand of his system, so he charged the batteries all the time, and when he listened he would disconnect them from the power, and play his system with new power inverted from his bank of lead acid batteries. I imagine a smaller system could have worked just as well.


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[The Black Adder]

Thanks guys.... all very informative, and all very much appreciated.

To be honest I just need to know what to say to a sparky, not decided upon one yet so I need to make whoever it is understand whats needed... :)

[TheFlash]

Thanks, Danilo. :)

Does anyone have a diagram or something to what I would need to do ideally?

I just need to know whats involved?

What I have is a Wirelex consumer board and although it's quite old it's quite expensive to replace. Not only that but the house could (ideally) need a re-wire but let's not go in to that.

I've had a technician/sparky round and he said that because there is a spare (RCD) blank on the main board I could use that for the hifi. But from what I've seen is that others doing this have a separate consumer unit running from the meter?

Using the existing board would use the house earth and no separate earthing rod. He said that would be VERY expensive.

Also, because this would be a radial circuit can I use 15Amp round pin plug socket on the hifi end? I've heard this is okay?

Thanks
Jo

No, spare RCD won't do it. Separate consumer unit IN ADDITION TO main house one. Either junction box taking feed off mains before it hits consumer unit i.e. basically splitting the feed visibly. Or my sparky took a feed off the input wire inside existing consumer unit but before it hit any of the RCDs. Look at my parts list and I think you'll see it includes 2 separate RCBOs which are RCD+breaker combined. These go in the hifi consumer unit. I'm not a sparky...

[Barry]

Running a dedicated ring from a new 30A RCB fitted into the spare way of your Wylex consumer unit will be perfectly acceptable. If you use a completely separate consumer unit for your dedicated ring; joining it to the meter tails via a Henley block, all you are doing is replacing the RCB of your 'house' consumer unit with that of the new unit of your dedicated ring.

Whilst redecorating my living/listening room and replacing the carpet, I took the opportunity to have a dedicated ring of 12 double sockets fitted for my audio system. The existing consumer unit was fully utilised, so a separate unit was fitted for the new ring. I can't say the new ring has made any difference, but since extra sockets were desperately needed, having a separate ring (rather than enlarging the existing ring) seemed a good idea for little extra outlay.
I haven't measured the source impedance of the dedicated ring, but measurement at a wall socket of the existing main gave a figure of 0.2Ohm, which is a good result. It may explain why fortunately I'm not troubled by mains quality issues.

[TheFlash]

Running a dedicated ring from a new 30A RCB fitted into the spare way of your Wylex consumer unit will be perfectly acceptable. If you use a completely separate consumer unit for your dedicated ring; joining it to the meter tails via a Henley block, all you are doing is replacing the RCB of your 'house' consumer unit with that of the new unit of your dedicated ring.

Whilst redecorating my living/listening room and replacing the carpet, I took the opportunity to have a dedicated ring of 12 double sockets fitted for my audio system. The existing consumer unit was fully utilised, so a separate unit was fitted for the new ring. I can't say the new ring has made any difference, but since extra sockets were desperately needed, having a separate ring (rather than enlarging the existing ring) seemed a good idea for little extra outlay.
I haven't measured the source impedance of the dedicated ring, but measurement at a wall socket of the existing main gave a figure of 0.2Ohm, which is a good result. It may explain why fortunately I'm not troubled by mains quality issues.

Yes, RCB not RCD.

[Pharos]

I'd like to se some result analysis of before/after with all this, or more importantly have benefits demonstrated.

[TheFlash]

I'd like to se some result analysis of before/after with all this, or more importantly have benefits demonstrated.

What format would you like to see the results in?

What sort of benefits would you expect to see or need to see?

And why: what is your interest here? Are you thinking of doing the same?

[The Black Adder]

Thanks guys.

Thanks Barry. I've always heard that a separate mains for hifi is the golden ticket. But there does seem to be some opposing views, more than I would have thought so far.

I've been doing some research in to the parts list based on Nigel's post.

Here is what I have so far:

x1 of these - https://www.yesss.co.uk/switchgear-distribution-c10/consumer-units-c231/3-phase-distribution-boards-accessories-c1337/schneider-electric-easy9-2way-insulated-consumer-unit-ez92cu-p23548

x1 f these - https://www.yesss.co.uk/switchgear-distribution-c10/rcds-c807/two-pole-c815/schneider-electric-easy9-2-module-double-pole-switch-isolator-63a-ez9s16263-p23584

x1 of these - https://www.yesss.co.uk/switchgear-distribution-c10/rcbos-rccbs-c235/single-pole-c236/schneider-electric-easy9-1-module-single-pole-type-b-rcbo-6ka-30ma-32a-ez9d16832-p23579

Is this what I would need to be fitted? The prices seem okay, but could be cheaper maybe?

[The Black Adder]

BTW.... they guy I had round quoted £400+ for fitting a more modern consumer box, does anyone know if that's a good price?

[struth]

Probably if hes fullyup to date and certified it sounds ok. Gas fitter who fitted my gas fire and fireplace, and altered spur cost about that but 10 years ago. Its the legal bit you are paying for so make sure his credentials are up to date, or you,ll have to pay someone to redo it

[Barry]

What format would you like to see the results in?

What sort of benefits would you expect to see or need to see?

And why: what is your interest here? Are you thinking of doing the same?

Presumably results similar to those showing the 'benefit' of using 5A round pin plugs and sockets over those of BS1363 13A type.

[Barry]

BTW.... they guy I had round quoted £400+ for fitting a more modern consumer box, does anyone know if that's a good price?

I paid about £650 for the work. In my estimation the materials would be around £200, so that leaves roughly £450 for the labour + certification. I would have done it all myself, and could have done the work to an equally high, if not higher, standard; but these days, for insurance purposes, all work needs to conform to the latest regulations and a certificate issued. So even if I had done the work myself (and as I get older I'm increasingly willing to pay for others to do any heavy labour such as raising and then refitting floorboards etc.), I would still have to have employed an electrician qualified to the latest standards to check and 'write off' the work.

A new 10-way consumer unit populated with RCBs will be about £120, and I would expect simply replacing your old CU with a newer one would take no more than a couple of hours.

[TheFlash]

Presumably results similar to those showing the 'benefit' of using 5A round pin plugs and sockets over those of BS1363 13A type.

Nope, you've lost me.

[Barry]

I was being sarcastic - Dennis (Pharos) asked for results/analysis on the benefits of installing a dedicated mains supply before he, or anyone else, went ahead and installed one. Dennis uses 5A round pin plugs and sockets in his system, claiming they have lower contact resistance when mated compared to the 13A type. If there are results/analysis to support such claims then perhaps I might be interested in changing the connectors to the old round pin style.

[TheFlash]

I was being sarcastic - Dennis (Pharos) asked for results/analysis on the benefits of installing a dedicated mains supply before he, or anyone else, went ahead and installed one. Dennis uses 5A round pin plugs and sockets in his system, claiming they have lower contact resistance when mated compared to the 13A type. If there are results/analysis to support such claims then perhaps I might be interested in changing the connectors to the old round pin style.

Ah, I see, I didn't know the history!

We're a diverse bunch, aren't we.

[The Black Adder]

It's too confusing. Think I'll leave it.

Thanks anyways.
:)

[alphaGT]

Making sure you've got ample clean power for your system is an admirable goal. But if one is looking for documented proof that it will make measurable differences, empirical evidence may be hard to find. And even anecdotal evidence seems to be divided down the middle. Some will swear by it! While others didn't notice any real difference.

As long as you've got ample current available to your system, your money may be better spent on power conditioning at the site. Right where your stereo is connected, to invest in a really nice power conditioner, or regenerator, is considered by most to be a very noticeable improvement. I noticed the difference in mine instantly, and wouldn't trade it for the world! I know I've got a perfectly clean 120v sinewave at all times feeding my system. And it sounds more detailed, with tighter bass, and consistent from day to day and day to night. And I also feel some satisfaction knowing it's protected from lightning and external surges or brownouts.

But, if your house is old, and you worry that you may not have the supply you want, or a properly grounded circuit, then by all means run the new circuits to the system. Or do it just for your own piece of mind. If you're spending this money because you expect to turn your system on and hear a wonderful difference, then you may be disappointed.


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[Pharos]

The Flash, and Barry, re these;

"What format would you like to see the results in?

What sort of benefits would you expect to see or need to see?

And why: what is your interest here? Are you thinking of doing the same? "

I am wary, as we all must be of 'foo', and so need both anecdotal, and more importantly, empirical evidence on which to base future changes.

My assertion about the 5A system is based not on measurement, but on a long ago experience when I was an apprentice.

In those days, about '66 '67, we had distribution boards we made as an early project, and they used Duraplug 5A sockets.
In the hostel we used to have 3kW kettles running through them, and they heated up far less than the 13A I/P lead plugs did.
My usage is based almost entirely on this experience, and the logistics of producing round pin contact being much better than those of the square pin type.

My approach in audio, is to go through it all periodically, questioning all my assumptions, and revisiting solutions, and I had thought that this aspect had been 'put to bed' by many, and also that RA's mains concern was mainly foo, although there is a lot of money to be made in this area.

With regard to noise, some measurements of noise with/without any change are always welcome, and any improvements in supply source impedance, which I assume would improve dynamics, would also be good to see evidenced.

The expense and upheaval to do much work on the house wiring, ensure for me the need forgood verification that the change will give results; there are some very expensive conditioners available.

Our posts crossed Alpha, and this;

"Making sure you've got ample clean power for your system is an admirable goal. But if one is looking for documented proof that it will make measurable differences, empirical evidence may be hard to find. And even anecdotal evidence seems to be divided down the middle. Some will swear by it! While others didn't notice any real difference. "

is exactly the difficulty.

[alphaGT]

So to simplify my response, hey, if it makes you happy, do it! And don't worry about if it's worth it. Piece of mind is not a bad thing at all. Knowing that it's right, and as good as you can make it, are good things.


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[Jimbo]

Hi Josie,

I contemplated running a separate radial for my system which would be easy to do but would cost £300-£500. It would be easy to do this in my house, however the ring main I use my system on currently has very little electrical stuff on it switching in and out, therefore noise on the ring main especially at night is minimal. A separator radial may or may not actually benefit your system and from what i have read it is debatable if sonic improvements are always quantifiable.

A Balanced power supply however would be more noticeable and worthwhile to incorporate into your system especially as I know you run Croft amps :)

[Marco]

Hi Jo,


It's too confusing. Think I'll leave it.

Thanks anyways.
:)

It really isn't complicated at all, matey. Give me a bell (when it suits) and, clearly and simply, I'll talk you through *exactly* what to do :cool:

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Hi Jo,



It really isn't complicated at all, matey. Give me a bell (when it suits) and, clearly and simply, I'll talk you through *exactly* what to do :cool:

Marco.

But you don't have dedicated mains, Marco, which is what The Black Adder enquired about. Unless I'm having a senior moment... [emoji53]

[Marco]

Lol - you obviously don't know me very well, then! I can assure you that the mains for my main system [not the one my NAS is currently connected to] is very much, erm "dedicated" :eyebrows:

A pic from 2009, when it was slightly more 'sensible' than it is now [various mains leads hardwired into a dedicated CU, also including a dedicated earth, solely for my hi-fi system]:

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/05012009255bu5.jpg

Marco [who first got into the whole 'mains optimisation' thing in 1998].

[TheFlash]

Lol - you obviously don't know me very well, then! I can assure you that the mains for my main system [not the one my NAS is currently connected to] is very much, erm "dedicated" :eyebrows:

A pic from 2009, when it was slightly more 'sensible' than it is now [various mains leads hardwired into a dedicated CU, also including a dedicated earth, solely for my hi-fi system]:

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/05012009255bu5.jpg

Marco [who first got into the whole 'mains optimisation' thing in 1998].

Clearly not! I don't think you mentioned your mains topology in any of your earlier posts here; sorry if you did and I missed that, as it negates most of what I have posted persistently and clearly about how your NAS linear PSU might be making an audible difference...

Please confirm how separate your mains supply is from general house supply (where and how they separate) so I/we can understand whether the only possible impact of the linear PSU can be on the data quality of the digital signal it produces. That truly would be a remarkable thing. Thanks.

[alphaGT]

Lol - you obviously don't know me very well, then! I can assure you that the mains for my main system [not the one my NAS is currently connected to] is very much, erm "dedicated" :eyebrows:

A pic from 2009, when it was slightly more 'sensible' than it is now [various mains leads hardwired into a dedicated CU, also including a dedicated earth, solely for my hi-fi system]:

http://s560.photobucket.com/albums/ss49/aos_images/marco_system/2009-01/05012009255bu5.jpg

Marco [who first got into the whole 'mains optimisation' thing in 1998].

Very nice! I wish I knew what I was looking at. Things here in the States look very different.


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[Marco]

Clearly not! I don't think you mentioned your mains topology in any of your earlier posts here; sorry if you did and I missed that, as it negates most of what I have posted persistently and clearly about how your NAS linear PSU might be making an audible difference...

Please confirm how separate your mains supply is from general house supply (where and how they separate) so I/we can understand whether the only possible impact of the linear PSU can be on the data quality of the digital signal it produces. That truly would be a remarkable thing. Thanks.

Okay dokes - let's clarify matters, so that there's no confusion....

I have TWO systems: my main one upstairs, the contents of which (save that associated with the Raspberry Pi) are listed in my signature below - and one downstairs, forming the basis of my AV system [listed here: http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?46334-Best-40-43-quot-TV&p=845516#post845516, which the RPi and NAS drives are currently connected to, the latter being powered from my new linear PSU.

The system upstairs is fed from my dedicated mains spur, isolated (as far as possible) from the main house ring-main.

The system downstairs currently receives its power from individual (filtered) 'audiophile quality' distribution blocks, situated at opposite ends of the room (one for ancillary items, such as the NAS drives and router, and the other for the main system components), both of which are plugged into wall sockets, which are powered from the house ring-main.

In summary, therefore, the main system has a dedicated mains spur, and the AV system [where the RPi and NAS currently live] is simply plugged into the house ring-main.

However, as I mentioned before on the other thread about the NAS linear PSU, there exists the opportunity to try powering the NAS drives with their original PSUs, but connected instead to the dedicated mains spur, then subsequently compare results with them receiving power from the NAS linear PSU, but plugged into the house ring-main, which will help indicate what's responsible for the sonic benefits I'm hearing with the introduction of the new linear PSU for the NAS drives.

I trust that all is now clear? :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Very nice! I wish I knew what I was looking at.


Dedicated consumer unit, situated on the wall directly behind my system, inside of which there were 2 x 63A MCBs, and into which the mains leads (big black things in the picture) for my system components were hardwired to, so that there were no sonically degrading plugs, plug fuses (which we have here in the UK) or sockets, in the equation.

Hope that helps, Russell :)

Marco.

[TheFlash]

… The system upstairs is fed from my dedicated mains spur, isolated (as far as possible) from the main house ring-main.

… the NAS drives and router, and the other for the main system components), both of which are plugged into wall sockets, which are powered from the house ring-main.

… I trust that now all is clear? :)

Marco.

Thanks Marco, appreciate this. We're almost there. Reason for my persistence is that my theory about how your linear PSU makes its difference is wholly dependent on noise from its switched predecessor having been removed from the hifi power supply. This is not about me being right or wrong, it's about being clear for others who may be tempted to invest in a linear PSU for their NAS or any other device so they know whether they are likely to hear any improvement or not (and therefore whether to invest).

Let me focus on the bold bit in this abridged quote. You say "dedicated spur". A spur can be dedicated in its end use but is not separate ("dedicated") in mains noise terms. Is this loose use of mains terminology, or is this genuinely a spur and not a radial? I wonder if this is why you then qualify your "isolated" with "as far as possible". Please explain where the dedicated "spur" hooks into the mains supply. If it is after the main consumer unit then you do have a spur and not a radial and my theory stands as you do not have a dedicated mains supply to your hifi; if it is before then you have a genuinely separate mains system which you can refer to as dedicated and should really refer to as a radial.

Let me have that info and I think we can be clear whether there is a simple explanation of the improvement or some sorts of magic going on.

Thanks.

Nigel

[Marco]

Lol - I fear we may have to disagree on what is considered as a 'dedicated mains supply' for a hi-fi system, which is separate from that which is powering all other electrical equipment in the home.

Power ultimately comes into our home from the local substation, and then goes through the main board installed therein, and from there into a consumer unit, which feeds electricity around our home.

In my set-up, from that *entry point onwards* on the board, my main hi-fi system (the one attached to the previous picture shown) receives its power from completely separate cables (16mm armoured) and a separate consumer unit [thus a separate 'spur'], from that powering the rest of the house, using simply 6mm twin & earth, in the form of a ring-main, and a totally different CU.

Both cable looms go in different directions, to do their respective jobs - and on top of that, the dedicated mains for my hi-fi system has its own separate earth feed, achieved via numerous copper earth rods having been plunged into the soil in my garden.

The RPi and NAS drives are currently being supplied from the basic house ring-main, but in order to carry out the suggested test, *could* instead be plugged into the dedicated mains for my hi-fi system, with the NAS drives using their stock PSUs, instead of the new linear one, in order to ascertain whether the sonic improvements I've gained, from the introduction of the new NAS PSU, have come solely from removing a source of noise from the overall house mains supply, or perhaps also something else.

Are we there now? :D

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Lol - I fear we may have to disagree on what is considered as a 'dedicated mains supply' for a hi-fi system, which is separate from that which is powering all other electrical equipment in the home.

Power ultimately comes into our home from the local substation, and then goes through the main board installed therein, and from there into a consumer unit, which feeds electricity around our home.

In my set-up, from that *entry point onwards*, my main hi-fi system (the one attached to the previous picture shown) receives its power from completely separate cables (16mm armoured) and a separate consumer unit, from that powering the rest of the house, using simply 6mm twin & earth.

Both cable looms go in different directions, to do their respective jobs, thus are separate from each other - and on top of that, the dedicated mains for my hi-fi system has its own separate earth feed, achieved via numerous earth rods having been plunged into the soil in my garden.

The RPi and NAS drives are currently being supplied from the basic house ring main, but in order to carry out the suggested test, *could* be plugged into the dedicated mains for my hi-fi system, with the NAS drives using their stock PSUs, instead of the new linear one.

Are we there now? :D

Marco.

Yes we are there, Marco. You're not disagreeing with me on what constitutes a dedicated power supply, you're wrong!

Anyone else who uses this description means a separate supply. Language is to communicate ideas so we do have to share an understanding of how we use words, and you are using them in a different way from anyone else. Your earlier posts referring to a separate mains supply for your hifi are therefore incorrect and should be corrected, lest they mislead.

Yours is not a dedicated supply, it is a shared supply. The noise from your switched PSU could therefore pollute your hifi system. The benefits you hear from your linear PSU on your NAS are directly attributable to removal of the switched PSU and nothing to do with the digital signal.

Unless additional data becomes available - e.g. you do reintroduce the switched PSU on a clone NAS and report back - I'm done here.

All the best,

Nigel

[Marco]

Yours is not a dedicated supply, it is a shared supply. The noise from your switched PSU could therefore pollute your hifi system. The benefits you hear from your linear PSU on your NAS are directly attributable to removal of the switched PSU and nothing to do with the digital signal.


Of course it's *ultimately* a shared supply, as the electricity you're using all comes from the same substation! How can you ever have a truly separate supply, unless you employ the use of a separate mains generator, and therefore, from scratch, create a completely separate supply *at source*?

It's separate, as far as I consider it possible (and practical) to achieve at home, and the sonic benefits I heard from doing it, when the work was originally carried out, were very significant indeed.

The final part (above), as ever, remains simply your opinion.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Of course it's *ultimately* a shared supply, as the electricity you're using all comes from the same substation! How can you ever have a truly separate supply, unless you employ the use of a separate mains generator, and therefore create a completely separate supply *at source*?

The final part, as ever, remains simply your opinion.

Marco.

So no one who claims to have a dedicated supply actually does? Of course we all use electricity from a substation. Does this mean that if you live next door to me and use a switched PSU I will hear its impact on my dedicated hifi mains supply? No it does not.

In the hifi world there is basically one meaning to dedicated power supply and it is the one I have used. I believe it is the one The Black Adder enquirer about. It is the one which everyone I have read about who has installed a dedicated supply uses to describe it, and used to commission the work. That's pretty close to a universal-except-Marco understanding.

I set this thread up on request, to provide more details of what might constitute a dedicated supply. You offered to provide guidance based on your own approach and showed a photo of something interesting at the socket end but irrelevant to a dedicated power supply, as you've since demonstrated.

Installing a dedicated power supply should cost around £500 all in. It is not complicated to commission and will make an audible difference provided there are no "dirty" devices, including switched power supplies, plugged into it.

I will PM the original enquirer and offer a telephone conversation.

If you want to describe my assertion as an opinion, implying that it is only as valid as your opinion or any other opinion, then feel free. The difference is that mine is an opinion based on both science and the experiences of any other audiophile who has a dedicated power supply. It is not simply one man's opinion.

[Marco]

So no one who claims to have a dedicated supply actually does? Of course we all use electricity from a substation. Does this mean that if you live next door to me and use a switched PSU I will hear its impact on my dedicated hifi mains supply? No it does not.


I agree, although unlikely, it would still be *possible*, to a much lesser extent, in the same way as if we were to return to the old days before mobile phones and computers were invented, and thus their collective sonically deleterious impact removed from the national gird, our hi-fi systems might sound rather better than they do now! ;)

The point where we're currently disagreeing, is in precisely what way you're saying that which you're advocating equates to a "truly separate supply", and what I've done doesn't - especially when there are 100s of people I know who've done the very same thing as me, with similar very positive sonic results, and who consider that what they've installed is a 'dedicated separate spur' for their hi-fi systems.

So, addressing solely the above point, can you tell me what makes your method a "truly separate supply", especially when whatever work you carry out inside the house, every single electrical appliance therein, connected to the incoming mains supply, is ultimately sharing that same supply??

Marco.

[Marco]

If you want to describe my assertion as an opinion, implying that it is only as valid as your opinion or any other opinion, then feel free. The difference is that mine is an opinion based on both science and the experiences of any other audiophile who has a dedicated power supply. It is not simply one man's opinion.

Oh, please don't come here thinking that just because you *may* have science on your side, that your opinion automatically carries more weight than anyone else's, as you won't get very far with that attitude on what is primarily a subjectivist forum.

Mine is also not only one man's opinion, but also that of many others I've had such discussions with in the past, long before you arrived here - some of whom are also personal friends, and where I've heard the results obtained in the systems concerned, first hand, all of which contributes to holding the opinion I do on the matter.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Oh, please don't come here thinking that just because you *may* have science on your side, that your opinion automatically carries more weight than anyone else's, as you won't get very far with that attitude on what is primarily a subjectivist forum.

Mine is also not only one man's opinion, but also that of many others I've had such discussions with in the past, long before you arrived here - some of whom are also personal friends, and where I've heard the results obtained in the systems concerned, first hand, all of which contributes to holding the opinion I do on the matter.

Marco.

I was not taking an objectivist stance, I know better than that. I referenced the combination of both science and collective (not just my) experience. Surely that counts for something.

[Marco]

Yes it does, but it doesn't *automatically* give your argument more 'weight' than mine. Ears and experience is what matters here, ultimately more than anything else.

You still haven't answered the question I asked you in post #38.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

I agree, although that'd be unlikely, it is still *possible*, to a much lesser extent, in the same way as if we were to return to the old days before mobile phones and computers were invented, and thus their collective sonically deleterious impact removed from the national gird, our hi-fi systems might sound rather better than they do now! ;)

The point where we're currently disagreeing, is in precisely what way that which you're advocating is a "truly separate supply", and what I've done, isn't - especially when there are 100s of people I know who've done the very same thing as me, with similar very positive sonic results, and who consider that what they've installed is a 'dedicated separate spur' for their hi-fi systems.

So, addressing solely the above point, can you tell me what makes your method a "truly separate supply", especially when whatever work you carry out inside the house, every single electrical appliance therein, connected to the incoming mains supply, is ultimately sharing that same supply??

Marco.

Ah, the "solely the above point" manoeuvre. You do like to take things out of their context don't you. By truly separate I mean what I have described as a dedicated mains supply. It is facile to say that everyone in a neighbourhood ultimately shares the same electricity because ultimately they all get it from the same substation. If I were to plug a microwave or an internet-over-mains thingie into my dedicated (in the generally accepted sense of the word) hifi power supply I would expect audible degradation; if I plugged it into the main house network I would not. If you plugged same into your dedicated or general house mains, I would wager you would hear no difference between them i.e. the same deleterious effect.

You might want to double check with your longstanding friends who have installed similar power supplies with similarly positive results whether they have spurs or radials. To be honest, it's your system in your house and if it sounds good to your ears then who am I to complain? Fill your boots, as they say.

My only point is to stop inaccurate extrapolations from one or more specific instances to a general rule; accurate extrapolations can help, and that is what forums are about of course, the sharing of personal experiences from which others might benefit. But to mix up spurs and radials risks much disappointment from people who try it and can't hear a difference - whereas if they had invested slightly more in a radial then they are far more likely to hear a real difference.

[TheFlash]

Yes it does, but it doesn't *automatically* give your argument more 'weight' than mine. Ears and experience is what matters here, ultimately more than anything else.

You still haven't answered the question I asked you in post #38.

Marco.

And I won't because you take things out of context. We live in context, listen in context, speak in context.

I do not claim universal principles or ultimate truth. I use the language in it's commonly accepted usage. "Dedicated mains" means radial.

[Marco]

Ah, the "solely the above point" manoeuvre. You do like to take things out of their context don't you. By truly separate I mean what I have described as a dedicated mains supply.


Which is precisely what...??

Give me the details again, as it's unclear exactly what the above equates to. Therefore, I'm not taking anything out of context, nor guilty of making "inaccurate extrapolations", but rather requesting clarification of information, so that others and I can understand exactly what you mean.

I'll get to the rest of what you wrote later.

Marco.

[Marco]

And I won't because you take things out of context. We live in context, listen in context, speak in context.

I do not claim universal principles or ultimate truth. I use the language in it's commonly accepted usage. "Dedicated mains" means radial.

See my previous post.

So far, none of what you've written, clearly and unambiguously, defines what you mean by the above, and most importantly, why you consider it qualifies as a "truly separate supply".

Until you offer a satisfactory answer to the above, it is *you* who are guilty of extrapolating the discussion, in order to deflect attention from the main crux of the matter, and the reason why we're in disagreement.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Which is precisely what...??

Give me the details again, as it's unclear exactly what the above equates to. Therefore, I'm not taking anything out of context, nor guilty of making "inaccurate extrapolations", but rather requesting clarification of information, so that others and I can understand exactly what you mean.

I'll get to the rest of what you wrote later.

Marco.

I have nothing new to add. A dedicated mains supply is radial in its topology. A spur on which you put only your hifi is not a dedicated mains.

If you insist that it is, and that there are degrees of separation right back to the substation, then you are factually correct of course as this is not a black and white matter. Within your spur, you might consider dedicated to mean not plugging two devices into the same double socket. Or not plugging two devices into the same single socket using a 2-way adaptor... these are all on a spectrum from dedicated to shared, and you can do what you want. But if you are communicating with others and using the word "dedicated" then others have the right to question your usage of that term. I am using the common usage, you are using the Marco usage. That's fine, but they're different.

[TheFlash]

See my previous post.

So far, none of what you've written, clearly and unambiguously, defines what you mean by the above, and most importantly, why you consider it qualifies as a "truly separate supply".

Until you offer a satisfactory answer to the above, it is *you* who are guilty of extrapolating the discussion, in order to deflect attention from the main crux of the matter, and the reason why we're in disagreement.

Marco.

Fair enough. By truly separate, I mean separate as in dedicated, and by dedicated I mean dedicated radial, separated before the consumer unit. Actually, the feed to my own comes out of the consumer unit box but is from the incoming supply before it hits the main consumer board; I am assured by the installing electrician that this is identical in its separateness to what I specified which was a junction box before the main house consumer unit. It is completely different from taking a feed from one of several RCDs on the main board. That's my understanding, a sparkie might clarify/argue, if there are any here on the forum.

A radial is more separate from the house supply than a spur. It is what is generally accepted in hifi circles as "dedicated".

[Marco]

I have nothing new to add. A dedicated mains supply is radial in its topology. A spur on which you put only your hifi is not a dedicated mains.


Sorry, I completely disagree, and *nothing* you've written so far I consider has factually proven what I've stated as wrong.


But if you are communicating with others and using the word "dedicated" then others have the right to question your usage of that term. I am using the common usage, you are using the Marco usage. That's fine, but they're different.

Well, so far from you all I've seen is the 'Nigel usage', so I guess you can stick with that, and I'll stick with the Marco one - then we'll both be happy! :D

Marco.

[Marco]

By truly separate, I mean separate as in dedicated, and by dedicated I mean dedicated radial, separated before the consumer unit.

Actually, the feed to my own comes out of the consumer unit box but is from the incoming supply before it hits the main consumer board; I am assured by the installing electrician that this is identical in its separateness to what I specified which was a junction box before the main house consumer unit. It is completely different from taking a feed from one of several RCDs on the main board. That's my understanding, a sparkie might clarify/argue, if there are any here on the forum.

A radial is more separate from the house supply than a spur. It is what is generally accepted in hifi circles as "dedicated".

Sorry, but that both makes little sense and doesn't in any way prove your point.

Please outline, step by step, exactly how one successfully achieves *true separation*, from carrying out the bit in bold above, because if it's practical, I'd love to do it myself!! :)

Marco.

[struth]

Dedicated spur is all you need. It keeps household appliances far enough away as to keep the audio room free. Use of decent filter is also important as a back up, and i,d say personally a regen too, but i like belt n braces if ive got a problem with my pants :eyebrows:
Only way to have total separation is to have two metered supplies, and thats not needed.

[Marco]

Dedicated spur is all you need. It keeps household appliances far enough away as to keep the audio room free. Use of decent filter is also important as a back up, and i,d say personally a regen too, but i like belt n braces if ive got a problem with my pants :eyebrows:

Only way to have total separation is to have two metered supplies, and thats not needed.

Precisely - especially the bit in bold! It is the ONLY way, short of employing the use of your own mains generator :)

And I don't believe that Nigel has either going on in his set up. If that's not the case, however, then I stand corrected and I offer him my respect for his 'dedication to the cause'....

Marco.

[struth]

You can buy or rent a meter to test for DE. let you know via some trial what if anything is potentially giving out de and where on your mains it is etc or if its coming from outside. Easier then to deal with.

[Pharos]

It may seem a little disrespectful to say so, but this thread seems to have become rather entrenched and alienated, and from my stance because of lack of clear terms and definitions, and descriptions.

Most sparkies would I think mean by 'Spur', a single cable taken from socket which is in a ring, and off 'radially' to a lone point. It is in this case still on the ring of course, and will get noise and source Z from the ring and its usage.

I would think, by instinct, that a single cable taken from the consumer box may well be described as a 'radial'. If this is used it eliminates all cct directly created/induced noise from an associated ring, but is still of course vulnerable to EMI.

It is obvious that at the I/C point all are joined to the same source whatever is done after that, so discussing our own approaches to a subsequent architecture is what is essential to any design attempt to improve mains quality.

So with clarity in terms, the options can be stated and reported on.

[Marco]

It may seem a little disrespectful to say so, but this thread seems to have become rather entrenched and alienated, and from my stance because of lack of clear terms and definitions, and descriptions.

Most sparkies would I think mean by 'Spur', a single cable taken from socket which is in a ring, and off 'radially' to a lone point. It is in this case still on the ring of course, and will get noise and source Z from the ring and its usage.

I would think, by instinct, that a single cable taken from the consumer box may well be described as a 'radial'. If this is used it eliminates all cct directly created/induced noise from an associated ring, but is still of course vulnerable to EMI.

It is obvious that at the I/C point all are joined to the same source whatever is done after that, so discussing our own approaches to a subsequent architecture is what is essential to any design attempt to improve mains quality.

So with clarity in terms, the options can be stated and reported on.

Absolutely, Dennis. However, for me, the crux of the matter lies within the bit in bold. In that respect, that's all I have done, as clearly as I was able to describe it.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

It may seem a little disrespectful to say so, but this thread seems to have become rather entrenched and alienated, and from my stance because of lack of clear terms and definitions, and descriptions.

Most sparkies would I think mean by 'Spur', a single cable taken from socket which is in a ring, and off 'radially' to a lone point. It is in this case still on the ring of course, and will get noise and source Z from the ring and its usage.

I would think, by instinct, that a single cable taken from the consumer box may well be described as a 'radial'. If this is used it eliminates all cct directly created/induced noise from an associated ring, but is still of course vulnerable to EMI.

It is obvious that at the I/C point all are joined to the same source whatever is done after that, so discussing our own approaches to a subsequent architecture is what is essential to any design attempt to improve mains quality.

So with clarity in terms, the options can be stated and reported on.

Thank you for a constructive response which helps to explain the difference I am struggling to explain.

[Marco]

So how come if Dennis has successfully explained that difference, I agree with him, yet disagree with you? ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

I have a completely separate ring main that is used solely for my audio system, and as such can be reasonably described as being 'dedicated'.

This dedicated ring-main has its own CU fitted with a 32A rated (30mA differential current trip level) RCB and a 32A MCB mains switch. It is connected to the incoming mains supply after the meter using a 'Henley' block, along with the tails from the existing CU that powers the rest of the house.

As far as I can see, Marco does indeed have a separate dedicated mains supply for his upstairs audio system. The CU shown is connected to the incoming mains supply back in the meter cupboard along with the CU that covers the rest of the house wiring. Whilst I have concerns about the installation downstream of the upstairs CU, the supply is "dedicated" in the usual sense of the term.

[Arkless Electronics]

Will a separate ring main improve the hilarity of all comedy watched on a televisual apparatus plugged into it? Or only Blackadder? :D

[TheFlash]

Dedicated spur is all you need. It keeps household appliances far enough away as to keep the audio room free. Use of decent filter is also important as a back up, and i,d say personally a regen too, but i like belt n braces if ive got a problem with my pants :eyebrows:
Only way to have total separation is to have two metered supplies, and thats not needed.

I agree. I must have used the phrase "total separation" somewhere and it has distracted the discussion - I merely meant "separate enough" in hifi community parlance which I believed was generally radial (separate effectively all the way back to the meter) not spur (off the ring main) - clearly I was not talking about two separate meters and neither has anyone else on other forums.

I'm disappointed that thread has got to this point. It grew from a separate discussion about whether/how a linear PSU on a NAS can improve sound quality. I am not the only person to challenge the claim that something must be happening to the digital signal. I have consistently suggested that it is far more likely to do with the mains being polluted by the preceding switched PSU having been removed. Marco stuck a stick in the spokes of this argument recently by saying he has a dedicated supply to his hifi and offering his own advice to The Black Adder re a dedicated mains supply, including a picture of a non-socket. This threw me completely as the NAS power supply can't affect the hifi if it's on a separate radial.

I like the cut of your gib, but I'm not sure (partly because I'm no electrician) what you mean by keeping "household appliances far enough away as to keep the audio room free". Is this to do with physical distance? I thought noise anywhere on the radial/ring could affect anywhere else on the same radial/ring, hence the need for a separate one for the hifi. If it is indeed influenced by physical distance, a dedicated spur starting from the main consumer unit might well have a positive impact, but I've never heard anyone else talk about the problem or the solution in these terms. Can you expand on how you would assess nearness or farness in electrical circuit terms ie. whether physical distance or something else. Many thanks.

The critical question this thread initially set out to answer was "can you expand on what I need to do to install a dedicated mains supply for my hifi". My answer remains the same. Installing a spur which is dedicated back to the consumer unit will probably cost around £100 (guess) or so less than installing a dedicated radial as you don't need a separate consumer board but the rest of the labour is the same. A dedicated radial gives higher separation than a dedicated spur by anybody's definition; my presumption until your post about "far enough away from" has been that a dedicated radial is several times better ("quieter") than a dedicated spur so the business case for a radial over a spur is a no-brainer. If that "several times" should read "slightly", I think there are still many audiophiles searching for nirvana who would pay the £100 anyway. But of course I don't believe it should read "slightly". I looked into all this and learned a lot before I commissioned my own setup.

All the best,

Nigel



Nigel

[Barry]

Will a separate ring main improve the hilarity of all comedy watched on a televisual apparatus plugged into it? Or only Blackadder? :D

Difficult to say: my TV and music system are in separate rooms, so I'm not going to plug in another TV downstairs and run up and down the stairs comparing the two. :lol:

[TheFlash]

I have a completely separate ring main that is used solely for my audio system, and as such can be reasonably described as being 'dedicated'.

This dedicated ring-main has its own CU fitted with a 32A rated (30mA differential current trip level) RCB and a 32A MCB mains switch. It is connected to the incoming mains supply after the meter using a 'Henley' block, along with the tails from the existing CU that powers the rest of the house.

As far as I can see, Marco does indeed have a separate dedicated mains supply for his upstairs audio system. The CU shown is connected to the incoming mains supply back in the meter cupboard along with the CU that covers the rest of the house wiring. Whilst I have concerns about the installation downstream of the upstairs CU, the supply is "dedicated" in the usual sense of the term.

Your setup is what I commissioned for my own house but the electrician made a pragmatic change without, I'm assured, affecting the separateness of the supply. I wish he hadn't but can live with the reassurance that in electrical terms it is equivalent and not the same as taking a feed off the consumer unit itself (spare RCD).

You're saying Marco has a dedicated consumer unit for his upstairs audio system in parallel with the general house CU. If this is correct, then it's a dedicated ring or radial system, not a spur. If he does have a dedicated ring/radial, noise from the NAS's switched PSU cannot affect the upstairs audio system, so something magical is happening to the digital signal coming out of the NAS. Marco has not mentioned a dedicated consumer unit before - or I missed it.

It is important to forum members who might be considering (a) purchasing a linear PSU for their NAS or (b) installing a dedicated mains supply, that we are crystal clear here. That is my sole purpose, not to diss anyone's views or go all objectivist vs subjectivist, just to be clear what the set-up is.

All the best,

Nigel

[TheFlash]

So how come if Dennis has successfully explained that difference, I agree with him, yet disagree with you? ;)

Marco.

Maybe I'm getting tired and reading too quickly… I suspect we are agreeing with different bits! I thought Dennis's response was constructive and focused on the issue at hand. It was helpful in seeking to clarify what the difference is, and helpfully pointed out that it is the downstream architecture which is key here. The bit I missed in my haste was the bit about the cable being taken from the (shared) consumer unit. It should come from before the house CU or in parallel with the house CU, not from the house CU ie. not using a "spare" RCD.

I'm way out of my depth electrically here. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your mains topology/architecture. See my most recent post (response to Barry) for this.

Nigel

[Marco]

Ok, fair enough.

I think we're reached the point in this discussion of simply 'agreeing to disagree', and moving on, or perhaps you *considering* the possibility that the sonic improvements I've gained from installing the new NAS PSU are derived from something else other than you had first thought.

If not, then we really do need to apply the former, as arguing about it any further will serve no constructive purpose whatsoever, as we'll only become further embroiled in a pointless circular argument.

I'm reserving judgement until I try using my NAS drives, with their original PSUs, plugged into (what I consider as) my dedicated mains supply, and if the resulting sound is worse than it is now, using them with the linear PSU, plugged into the house ring-main, then for me it strongly suggests that something else is causing the sonic improvement, other than solely reducing noise on the mains :)

Marco.

[Marco]

Just noticed this:


You're saying Marco has a dedicated consumer unit for his upstairs audio system in parallel with the general house CU. If this is correct, then it's a dedicated ring or radial system, not a spur.


Who cares what it's officially recognised as? The important fact is, as Barry has correctly outlined, I *do* possess a dedicated mains set-up for my hi-fi system, as stated in previous posts.


If he does have a dedicated ring/radial, noise from the NAS's switched PSU cannot affect the upstairs audio system, so something magical is happening to the digital signal coming out of the NAS.


Only in your humble opinion it can't. It's not a fact unless you can prove differently. So far, I've seen no such evidence. I've also made no claims to the contrary.

The only "magical" thing that might happen here is you entertaining the possible existence of something that falls outside of your ingrained belief system! ;)


Marco has not mentioned a dedicated consumer unit before - or I missed it.


You missed it, because I did. Now, I'm starting to lose the will to live, so I strongly suggest that we 'agree to disagree' and move on.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Ok, fair enough.

I think we're reached the point in this discussion of simply 'agreeing to disagree', or perhaps you *considering* the possibility that the sonic improvements I've gained from my new NAS PSU are derived from something else other than you had first thought.

If not, then we really do need to apply the former, as arguing about it any further will serve no constructive purpose whatsoever, as we'll simply become further embroiled in a pointless circular argument.

I'm reserving judgement until I try using my NAS drives, with their original PSUs, plugged into (what I consider as) my dedicated mains supply, and if the resulting sound is worse than it is now, using them with the linear PSU, plugged into the house ring-main, then for me it strongly suggests that something else is causing the sonic improvement, other than solely reducing noise on the mains :)

Marco.

Excellent. I do consider the possibility and would be fascinated if it turned out to be so. I just consider it to be very very very unlikely. Hence why I'm so keen to rule out the mains issue.

Your experiment as described here will not tell you anything unless you have (what I consider as) a dedicated mains supply!

If you have (what I consider as) a dedicated mains supply - dedicated consumer unit NOT fed from house consumer unit - swapping PSUs on the house main should make no audible difference. Swapping between PSUs on the dedicated mains should make the difference we would both expect to hear from a linear PSU.

If you have a (what I consider as) a non-dedicated mains supply, moving between "dedicated" and house should make no difference, the only difference will arise from the PSU itself wherever in the house the NAS is located.

You will only have demonstrated some other cause of the sonic improvement if you have genuinely dedicated mains supply and the linear PSU sounds better than the switched one when connected to the house mains supply. That's why I have been so persistent in trying to get to your mains architecture.

All the best,

Nigel

[Marco]

Enough, please - I've met some pedantically argumentative folk in my time, but you take the biscuit! :doh:

I don't need to demonstrate or prove the cause of anything to anyone. I'm here simply to relate my valid experiences. What others or you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Now, if you 'backchat' once more, in order to prolong this pointless argument, it'll simply be deleted.

Marco.

[Barry]

Maybe I'm getting tired and reading too quickly… I suspect we are agreeing with different bits! I thought Dennis's response was constructive and focused on the issue at hand. It was helpful in seeking to clarify what the difference is, and helpfully pointed out that it is the downstream architecture which is key here. The bit I missed in my haste was the bit about the cable being taken from the (shared) consumer unit. It should come from before the house CU or in parallel with the house CU, not from the house CU ie. not using a "spare" RCD.

I'm way out of my depth electrically here. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of your mains topology/architecture. See my most recent post (response to Barry) for this.

Nigel

I'm not sure it is essential for the dedicated mains supply to be derived from a completely separate CU, rather than a spare RCB in an existing CU: the only difference being the additional MCB switch of the second CU.

Certainly an audio mains supply wired as a radial stub, off a ring main, will not offer as much suppression of the high frequency noise generated by SMPS, as would be offered by a true dedicated mains system (regardless of it being radial or ring wired). The question is whether the supposed rejection of this cable-borne noise is worth the trouble of installation.

In my case, I desperately needed additional sockets (at least 14). I opted for ring- rather than radial-wiring. And since the existing CU was 'full' with no spare ways, a separate CU was fitted. A new ring just requires one RCB, a radial system would have required 14 RCBs.

[Joe]

Well, I've still got a CU with fuse wires and run the upstairs system off a couple of mains strips from B&Q, and it sounds fine to me. I'll be a sorry man when the house burns down though but.

[Barry]

Well, I've still got a CU with fuse wires and run the upstairs system off a couple of mains strips from B&Q, and it sounds fine to me. I'll be a sorry man when the house burns down though but.

One of my CUs uses fuses - and in all my time here (39 years) I have never had a fuse blow.

[TheFlash]

Enough, please - I've met some pedantically argumentative folk in my time, but you take the biscuit! :doh:

I don't need to demonstrate or prove the cause of anything to anyone. I'm here simply to relate my valid experiences. What others or you choose to do with that information is entirely up to you.

Now, if you 'backchat' once more, in order to prolong this pointless argument, it'll simply be deleted.

Marco.

Backchat? Who do you think you are, a teacher or some sort of religious cult leader talking to a junior, threatening me with detention? That's pathetic. Go on then, delete away. You never did respond to my request to confirm that what Barry had seen was indeed a separate CU fed in parallel with and not from the main CU. You could have down that in the time it took to take me down a peg or two.

Stop taking things personally. If I ask a question about your mains topology, I'm not questioning your manhood or your sanity, I'm questioning your mains topology. If you see that as "backchat'…:rolleyes:

[Marco]

Apologies, I'm not taking things personally, but you do go on a bit, essentially stating the same things again and again that we simply disagree on, which only serve to prolong an existing circular argument.

We're not big on circular arguments here or those who insist on always being right, especially when playing the 'science card' ;)

I think it's best that we simply agree to disagree on what constitutes as a 'dedicated mains set up' for a hi-fi system, and where the likelihood of the sonic improvements brought about by the introduction of the linear PSU for my NAS drives originates from.

Marco.

[TheFlash]

Apologies, I'm not taking things personally, but you do go on a bit, essentially stating the same things again and again that we simply disagree on, which only serve to prolong an existing circular argument.

We're not big on circular arguments here ;)

Marco.

Apologies in return.

From my perspective, and we know it is personal experiences which count here rather than rights and wrongs, I feel compelled to "go on a bit" (what I would call be persistent) if I ask a relatively straightforward question and the answer is ambiguous, incomplete, sidesteps the central point or whatever. I hate circular arguments so I try to turn them into spirals where they home in on an answer. We have been around this buoy so many times and I STILL don't understand your mains topology. and the only reason I'm asking is so others can understand what they might or might not expect to hear if they invest in something.

I'm not at the other end of the subjectivist-measurist spectrum from you; I hope for example to take up the offer shortly of a visit to a cable manufacturer near here to hear the differences between various cable in their range and will not be taking any scientific instruments with me or expecting them all to sound the same... I have dedicated mains, a mains cleanser, isolation platforms, and (winces) probably thousands of pounds worth of speaker, interconnect and mains (but not digital!) cables in my relatively modest system.

Somehow you and I got stuck somewhere early in this and have negotiated the buoy manfully since. If I've been painfully persistent, it's because the buoy has remained tantalisingly close but frustratingly out of reach. And no, I'm not a sailor: I know you're supposed to avoid a buoy not head for it, but where's the metaphor in that?

Happy to let this thread wither on the vine; it's taken way too much of my day today and I need to put my energies elsewhere tomorrow.

Sleep well.

Nigel

[Pharos]

Well my house is still using a 60s system in which the -ve is connected directly to the earth at the CU by a thick metal bar, and it is still legal.

I have a row of fuses, archaic looking with asbestos backings to the ceramic holders, and it all seems OK.

I have been quoted about £600 to update to RCD form, but need to decide on this issue in discussion before considering future plans.

[Marco]

Apologies in return.


Happily accepted :)


From my perspective, and we know it is personal experiences which count here rather than rights and wrongs, I feel compelled to "go on a bit" (what I would call be persistent) if I ask a relatively straightforward question and the answer is ambiguous, incomplete, sidesteps the central point or whatever.


If that was the result of what I wrote, then I assure you it wasn't intentional. I was in fact trying to be the opposite, as folks here who know me would appreciate. I'm honestly not the type to 'sidestep' anything!


I hate circular arguments so I try to turn them into spirals where they home in on an answer. We have been around this buoy so many times and I STILL don't understand your mains topology. and the only reason I'm asking is so others can understand what they might or might not expect to hear if they invest in something.


Well... Barry's a good friend of mine, and has visited my house and heard/seen my system and mains set-up numerous times, so you can take what he's written on that subject as a given, which you appeared to understand earlier, and therefore can now use to clarify matters.


I'm not at the other end of the subjectivist-measurist spectrum from you; I hope for example to take up the offer shortly of a visit to a cable manufacturer near here to hear the differences between various cable in their range and will not be taking any scientific instruments with me or expecting them all to sound the same... I have dedicated mains, a mains cleanser, isolation platforms, and (winces) probably thousands of pounds worth of speaker, interconnect and mains (but not digital!) cables in my relatively modest system.


Glad to hear it! Cool :cool:


Happy to let this thread wither on the vine; it's taken way too much of my day today and I need to put my energies elsewhere tomorrow.


As am I, and for similar reasons. The whole issue with the linear NAS PSU thing is not for anything to require proving, but simply to relate experiences that others can use to ascertain whether they wish to try the same thing for themselves or not.

At the end of the day, we can debate the subject until the cows come home, and also the efficacy of what I've done in that respect, for the perusal of others, but the ONLY way you'll ever know for sure if something works or not is to 'suck it and see'! ;)

Nighty night :goodnight:

Marco.

[alphaGT]

Dedicated consumer unit, situated on the wall directly behind my system, inside of which there were 2 x 63A MCBs, and into which the mains leads (big black things in the picture) for my system components were hardwired to, so that there were no sonically degrading plugs, plug fuses (which we have here in the UK) or sockets, in the equation.

Hope that helps, Russell :)

Marco.

Thanks! That does describe what I see. Yes here in the states we have breaker boxes, new versions of old fuse panels but with breakers in them, and grounded 2" x 4" boxes recessed in the wall, with receptacles flush, sometime they are surface mounted on brick walls etc. I've always assumed everyone else did too! So thanks for the look, I'm enlightened.


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