View Full Version : Now at Richer Sounds
Audio Al
11-04-2017, 12:33
http://www.richersounds.com/product/turntables/technics/sl1210gr/tech-sl1210gr?utm_source=emailmarketing&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20170410__technics_actives&utm_content=2017-04-11_0926
:)
I know, it is tempting isn't it?
Spectral Morn
11-04-2017, 17:40
I know, it is tempting isn't it?
No, not really.
No, not really.
:D well I quite fancy one and Audio Al fancies everything so that's 2 -1 so far
walpurgis
11-04-2017, 18:17
I'll stick with my SR-370.
Arkless Electronics
11-04-2017, 18:24
No, not really.
Same here...
2-3
The home side is losing so far...
prestonchipfryer
11-04-2017, 19:33
Definitely a temptation!
if my budget was big enough, I'd have 2 in a heart beat, can imagine these will be better than 1210s for mixing as that's saying something!
Good to see it's back, but the price is three times more than it was before.
Not sure that's justified, given the superficial nature of the improvements stated, and especially considering the added cost involved of modding it up to the required standard, in order to equal that of the Techies some of us already own here.
Marco.
Looks too much like a DJ turntable to take it too seriously
So itsorry a no from me as well
Good to see it's back, but the price is three times more than it was before.
Not sure that's justified, given the superficial nature of the improvements stated, and especially considering the added cost involved of modding it up to the required standard, in order to equal that of the Techies some of us own here.
Marco.
if you take into account that the old version was only as cheap as it was due to hundreds of thousands of them being made, and factor in inflation, the price does not look so bad. You could also compare the material value of the Technics to the competiton, most of which are comprised of a wooden box or mdf plinth, and a £40 off-the-shelf motor. And come without an arm.
As to it looking 'like a DJ deck' beauty is always in the eye of the beholder. I think it is an iconic design personally. Plus to be factually correct it actually 'looks' like a second-tier broadcast deck since that is what the original was intended to be, DJs not having been invented yet when it originally came out (unless you count the Jimmy Saville variety, which isn't the same thing at all).
prestonchipfryer
12-04-2017, 14:27
There are some very serious DJ's who use the Technics because of its high quality and dependability. It's also a fine deck for using in the home as it's a work of art.
i'll stick with my pioneer thanks.
Floyddroid
12-04-2017, 15:53
Been there got the t-shirt. It's a no from me. More than happy with what i have thank you very much.
Plus to be factually correct it actually 'looks' like a second-tier broadcast deck since that is what the original was intended to be, DJs not having been invented yet when it originally came out (unless you count the Jimmy Saville variety, which isn't the same thing at all).
To clarify, disco DJs have been mixing records since the early 70s (maybe even the late 60s in the case of Francis Grasso) and the MK2 was designed with them in mind according to the original product brochure here:
https://www.vinylengine.com/ve_downloads/index.php?technics/technics_sl1200mk2_brochure.pdf
Quote:
“When Technics introduced the original SL-1200 direct drive turntable several years ago, it made all other turntable drive systems seem antiquated in comparison. The SL-1200 became a strong favorite among audio purists, amateur and professional. It was particularly popular in discos because of its rugged construction, easy handling, high torque and good immunity to feedback.
The SL-1200MK2 represents the next generation, incorporating numerous improvements over the original. In addition to being quartz-locked direct drive, it permits continuous speed adjustment under quartz control (within a range of ±8%). This feature will be appreciated by disco DJ's who wish to maintain consistent rhythm when changing records. Its starting torque is a high 1.5 kg.cm(1.3 lb.in), with the platter reaching rated speed within 0.7 second from standstill. It also maintains a tighter lock on the selected speed than did the original SL-1200. The SL-1200MK2 should also be virtually feedback-proof because of its special base design. The platter itself is damped on both sides to avoid ringing.”
Yes Chris (and Paul), but the original SL-120 (from 1972), upon which the later SL-1200/1210 is based, had no such pitch control, or indeed even a tonearm, and it cost more then than an LP12, which was also introduced in the same year:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Technics_SL120.jpg
The fact is, the Technics was not originally designed as a "DJ deck" at all, but rather a very high-quality turntable, aimed at discerning audiophiles. I presume you're not saying differently?
It was only later, when it became the SL-1200, we all know now, that National Panasonic decided to make some concessions to its design that would increase its appeal to the DJ market (where the blurb you've quoted comes from), which had embraced the reliability and solidity of its design, fast-start up times (due to its relatively high-torque motor), and most importantly, superb sound.
Marco.
if you take into account that the old version was only as cheap as it was due to hundreds of thousands of them being made, and factor in inflation, the price does not look so bad. You could also compare the material value of the Technics to the competiton, most of which are comprised of a wooden box or mdf plinth, and a £40 off-the-shelf motor. And come without an arm.
Yes, good point. The problem, however, as you can see here, is that 'old habits die hard', and the uninitiated simply not 'getting' what this T/T is all about.
Marco.
Been there got the t-shirt. It's a no from me. More than happy with what i have thank you very much.
And yet, I recall that others and you were somewhat flabbergasted at the sound my modded version produced at NEBO, experiencing what seemed then as a seminal moment in your hi-fi experience....? ;)
What do you have now then, Steve? :)
Marco.
To clarify, disco DJs have been mixing records since the early 70s (maybe even the late 60s in the case of Francis Grasso) and the MK2 was designed with them in mind according to the original product brochure here:
https://www.vinylengine.com/ve_downloads/index.php?technics/technics_sl1200mk2_brochure.pdf
Quote:
“When Technics introduced the original SL-1200 direct drive turntable several years ago, it made all other turntable drive systems seem antiquated in comparison. The SL-1200 became a strong favorite among audio purists, amateur and professional. It was particularly popular in discos because of its rugged construction, easy handling, high torque and good immunity to feedback.
The SL-1200MK2 represents the next generation, incorporating numerous improvements over the original. In addition to being quartz-locked direct drive, it permits continuous speed adjustment under quartz control (within a range of ±8%). This feature will be appreciated by disco DJ's who wish to maintain consistent rhythm when changing records. Its starting torque is a high 1.5 kg.cm(1.3 lb.in), with the platter reaching rated speed within 0.7 second from standstill. It also maintains a tighter lock on the selected speed than did the original SL-1200. The SL-1200MK2 should also be virtually feedback-proof because of its special base design. The platter itself is damped on both sides to avoid ringing.”
Didn't realise they also marketed the deck at DJ's Chris so thanks for that. From what I have read the original brief was for a second tier broadcast deck for studios that could not afford SP10s or who wanted competent decks to back them up. Once marketing get a hold of it things can change. Was the pitch slider incorporated for the DJs specifically? Or was it just a case of 'We can so we will'.
alcarmichael
12-04-2017, 20:21
Yes Chris (and Paul), but the original SL-120 (from 1972), upon which the later SL-1200/1210 is based, had no such pitch control, or indeed even a tonearm, and it cost more then than an LP12, which was also introduced in the same year:
http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Technics_SL120.jpg
The fact is, the Technics was not originally designed as a "DJ deck" at all, but rather a very high-quality turntable, aimed at discerning audiophiles. I presume you're not saying differently?
It was only later, when it became the SL-1200, we all know now, that National Panasonic decided to make some concessions to its design that would increase its appeal to the DJ market (where the blurb you've quoted comes from), which had embraced the reliability and solidity of its design, fast-start up times (due to its relatively high-torque motor), and most importantly, superb sound.
Marco.
Aren't those little knobs the pitch control?
Yes Chris (and Paul), but the original SL-120 (from 1972), upon which the later SL-1200/1210 is based, had no such pitch control, or indeed even a tonearm, and it cost more then than an LP12, which was also introduced in the same year:
The fact is, the Technics was not originally designed as a "DJ deck" at all, but rather a very high-quality turntable, aimed at discerning audiophiles. I presume you're not saying differently?
It was only later, when it became the SL-1200, we all know now, that National Panasonic decided to make some concessions to its design that would increase its appeal to the DJ market (where the blurb you've quoted comes from), which had embraced the reliability and solidity of its design, fast-start up times (due to its relatively high-torque motor), and most importantly, superb sound.
Marco.
Marco,
No I’m not saying differently, we are in agreement there :)
However, the SL-120 does have pitch control – they are the two rotary pots at the front, one for each speed.
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l82/_NRG_/other/SL120/DSCF2651.jpg
Indeed, but they were different from the sliding pitch control, later located much more prominently on the fascia, which I believe also offered more fine levels of pitch adjustment, and that was introduced to increase the T/T's appeal to DJs.
The essential point however, is that the Technics wasn't at any stage originally designed as a 'DJ deck'. Like Martin says, it wasn't just DJs who used them, but many professional broadcasting houses/radio stations, where the budget wouldn't stretch to SP10s or EMTs.
As far as audiophiles were concerned, back in the day, most of us were too wrapped up in the whole 'belt-drive was superior' thing, perpetrated by magazines and dealers, and which made us become somewhat anti-direct drive, prompted also in no small part by some of the truly awful plastic Jap D/D turntables of the day, which sounded dire.
The Technics, however, was a completely different beast! As indeed were numerous other quality direct-drives, produced by the likes of Pioneer, Denon, Micro Seiki, Marantz and JVC - unfortunately all largely ignored by the (then) rather biased British hi-fi press! :rolleyes:
We're only now starting to learn just how good some of those things were......
Marco.
Marco,
No I’m not saying differently, we are in agreement there....
However, the SL-120 does have pitch control – they are the two rotary pots at the front, one for each speed.
Yup, just answered that point, Chris :)
Marco.
Not at that price. Reckon my moderately modded old un would give that a fair old run for its money.
Interesting, We need to see the innards with the platter off.
I would expect a complete redesign of the PSU,motor drive/control electronics and improved rotational spec.
Of the £1299 take off £300 for VAT and the recent £ to Yen value change. Dealer profit of at least £300 so the real S/H value of the new deck is £600 (probably being manufactured for around £300)
A good S/H 1200 will set one back around £300?
To improve this we have to mod the PSU.Change the bearing, Tweak the platter.
3 stage PSU mod about £190 DIY
Bearing £150 DIY
Platter about £80 DIY--circa £410-450
The one common feature looks like the arm. From the photos I cant see any difference
Having done all the above mods first, on my own deck I found I gained a much improved SQ by removing the techie arm wand and fitting a straight CF wand about £30 -60 DIY (dependand on how one gets a new headshell)
So lets round up the DIY route to cover the any odd extra bits you have to buy and we are looking at £500- 550.
Added to a S/H 1200 at £300 means about an £800 spend.
Both decks need a cart.
If you are looking at the cost of up grading a 1200 using retail priced goodies you are not going to get a lot of change from £1000. from Bearing PSU and platter. add to that the £300 for the s/h 1200 and you are very close to the new deck price.
All the new deck may need is a better arm wand.?
Why have Technics not done this, is it a marketing decision to target the disco. rather than Hi Fi users
The proof of the pudding
Anyone heard one connected to a good hi fi system
They do claim that the arm, whilst looking similar to the old one, is completely revamped.
The motor is a different design.
Loads of info and topless pics out there on the web
Appreciate some are looking at it from a sound quality/value for money point of view. Very sensible, not what I am doing though. I like the SL1200 for more nebulous reasons and like the idea of having a brand spanking new one. That's all.
I suppose from a pragmatic point of view I don't think they will be making this new version forever and as there will undoubtedly be a lot less made than the previous version it may well become a collector's item and appreciate in value. Especially if I never take it out of the box. (Not that that would ever happen).
Go for it, mate. You know you want one... And it would be interesting carrying out 'new vs. old' Techy comparisons, especially with yours being virtually stock, the results of which I'm sure would be very interesting! :cool:
Marco.
Am off up Liverpool in a bit so might go in Richer Sounds and have a look at one in the flesh.
Reading some info on the net its appears very easy to get the comments on the 1200G and GR mixed up.
The GR uses an aluminium tone arm (like the old 1200/1210) while the G uses a magnesium one.
Headshell weight is the same as the old 1200 at 7.5gm
The spec for Rumble on the 1200GR is identical to the old 1200/1210 at -78db
The spec for W&F has changed against the old 1200 - In keeping with the new digital servo and SPMS Supply ? - But Technics dont explain how it is measured on the 1200GR
Unfortunately those of us who went to the 3 stage PSU dont have the gear to measure W&F but Im sure the mods to the FG amp will have helped in that area.
We need Martin to buy one and review it.
Bigman80
13-04-2017, 14:37
Id be very interested to know how this compares with what I see as the main variations. Ie, a standard original version, the new version and the modded to death versions owned by Marco and pals.
Just as an enquiry, how much has been spent on the total mods to get that "flabbergasted" sound ?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Regretably my 76 year old mother was not so keen on the idea of spending the afternoon demoing japanese direct drive turntables. So nothing further to report.
RobbieGong
13-04-2017, 22:31
Id be very interested to know how this compares with what I see as the main variations. Ie, a standard original version, the new version and the modded to death versions owned by Marco and pals.
Just as an enquiry, how much has been spent on the total mods to get that "flabbergasted" sound ?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Hard to say as some of us have different arms and cable etc BUT
SL12XX ... Mk2 - Mk5g £400 - £750 approx
Mike new bearing £460 approx
Mike new bearing base plate £200 approx
ETP Platter £650 approx
Paul Hynes SR7 £650 approx (add £45 for OFC lead or £120 approx for silver lead with nice connector)
Isonoe feet £120 approx
Ebony armboard (£100 approx)
ADD
Upgrade tonearm ???
Cart ?????
The above gives a rough idea of cost of a very substantially modded Techie.
Might seem a lot but said Techie should outperform decks costing plenty more.
Indeed i've been 'flabbergasted' AND I've not even had my SR7 and triple stage regs fittted yet :eek: ;)
Bigman80
13-04-2017, 22:41
Hard to say as some of us have different arms and cable etc BUT
SL12XX ... Mk2 - Mk5g £400 - £750 approx
Mike new bearing £460 approx
Mike new bearing base plate £200 approx
ETP Platter £650 approx
Paul Hynes SR7 £650 approx (add £45 for OFC lead or £120 approx for silver lead with nice connector)
Isonoe feet £120 approx
Ebony armboard (£100 approx)
ADD
Upgrade tonearm ???
Cart ?????
The above gives a rough idea of cost of a very substantially modded Techie.
Might seem a lot but said Techie should outperform decks costing plenty more.
Indeed i've been 'flabbergasted' AND I've not even had my SR7 and triple stage regs fittted yet :eek: ;)
Wow, that is a lot of money, thing is, is it still a techie ?
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RobbieGong
13-04-2017, 22:56
Wow, that is a lot of money, thing is, is it still a techie ?
Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk
Absolutely as the heartbeat, soul, dna of the Techie is its excellent quartz locked dd system. It is the foundation the mods are built on.
Btw forgot to add tonearm cable to the above so anywhere from £125 to whatever you want to spend
Probably not bad pound for pound really. a lot less than many fancy belt drives.
RobbieGong
13-04-2017, 23:15
Probably not bad pound for pound really. a lot less than many fancy belt drives.
Exactly and just one great deck to both hear and use.
Bigman80
14-04-2017, 06:54
I've always been Interested in the 1210 but I dont know if id want to spend that much money making it the best it could be.
Would the new version be as good as a modded version? If so, doesn't look too badly priced
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RobbieGong
14-04-2017, 08:38
I've always been Interested in the 1210 but I dont know if id want to spend that much money making it the best it could be.
Would the new version be as good as a modded version? If so, doesn't look too badly priced
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A well modded one ie platter, MN bearing, baseplate, triple stage regs etc - definitely no.
martian sunrise
14-04-2017, 08:51
Id sell my modded 1210'for 1300!
keiron99
15-04-2017, 13:15
A well modded one ie platter, MN bearing, baseplate, triple stage regs etc - definitely no.
That's quite a confident statement without actually having listened to them side by side!
I am seriously intrigued by the SL1200G, which is the model up in the range. I have seen them going for £1999.
Apart from the physical look, they have very little in common with the original 1200 models of yore.
There's a very interesting and informative review by Michael Fremer on Analog Planet
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-direct-drive-sl-1200g-turntable#XzYOQUxsbSlMxChV.97
To quote:
"Frankly, the blowback on the analogPlanet YouTube channel was instructive. It demonstrated just how little knowledge some posters had about vinyl playback and especially about the new SL-1200G, which though it looks like the old 1200 is anything but!"
Thanks for the link, a very informative review.
It confirms my own belief that Technics will have surpassed any mods we can do the PSU / motor control electronics with their redesign of the motor its new higher resolution control electronics and a good SMPS PSU.
The measurements shown are proof of the platter rotational improvement which can only be achieved with a new motor design.
I have heavily modded my 2 techies but I would be hesitant to make any claims about their performance relative to the new 1200G and GR. I havent seen one let alone had a listening session.
If I had a budget of £1999 for a TT the 1200G would certainly be on my list.
The 1200GR looks to me to be more of a replacement for our generation of Techies and I would assume it will use exactly the same electronics and motor as the 1200G.
One difference noted is the tonearm which I commented on in an earlier post. With the 1200GR there may be room for improvement but if we let price of both models settle to market forces it may not be worth it and one accepts the 1200G for Hi fi use.
The old techie will plod on for some time yet, it still tops the list of entry level decks that can easily be tweaked to shoot well above more expensive units.
prestonchipfryer
15-04-2017, 16:39
I have seen them going for £1999.
Have you a link to where to buy for that price? Thanks.
RobbieGong
15-04-2017, 20:42
That's quite a confident statement without actually having listened to them side by side!
I am seriously intrigued by the SL1200G, which is the model up in the range. I have seen them going for £1999.
Apart from the physical look, they have very little in common with the original 1200 models of yore.
There's a very interesting and informative review by Michael Fremer on Analog Planet
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/technics-direct-drive-sl-1200g-turntable#XzYOQUxsbSlMxChV.97
To quote:
"Frankly, the blowback on the analogPlanet YouTube channel was instructive. It demonstrated just how little knowledge some posters had about vinyl playback and especially about the new SL-1200G, which though it looks like the old 1200 is anything but!"
Hi Keiron,
My statement is in the in the context of the £1299 GR which i'm sure will be pretty much on a similar 'level' to the MK5g.
I've had my MK5g from new. In stock form its sound is ok.
It sounded very 'nice' with a 2M Black on the stock MK5g arm which has better wire than the other stock versions before it.
I can attest that with with the mods i've mentioned - upgrade arm, external ps, MN bearing, base plate, ebony armboard and ETP platter it is a different animal all together with a genuine 'rightness' to its sound (and so it should considering the upgrades),
Less closed, coloured etc and more revealing of the recording in a more grown up hi fidelity sense, that the stock MK5g does not have.
If the GR did happen to sound 'better' than a well modded Techie then it is an out and out bargain.
chris@panteg
17-04-2017, 09:50
Couple of interesting differences about the new GR model, the base is not like the old rubber but a vacuum resin material, also the platter is 800 gms heavier and has some structural bracing with a thinner softer mat.
Dubster68
15-05-2017, 15:15
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/timestep-modified-technics-sl-1210gr/
Using the arm lift on that will be a real pain in the butt.
It's one of the reasons I got rid of my AO modified RB251. It is just too much faff to use on an SL1200.
walpurgis
15-05-2017, 18:11
Using the arm lift on that will be a real pain in the butt.
It's one of the reasons I got rid of my AO modified RB251. It is just too much faff to use on an SL1200.
Exactly. I've mentioned several times in the past that Rega arms and Rega derived arms are an ergonomic disaster on Techies.
Michielius
15-05-2017, 20:30
Using the arm lift on that will be a real pain in the butt.
It's one of the reasons I got rid of my AO modified RB251. It is just too much faff to use on an SL1200.
I've read this a lot on this forum and I've always wondered why. I've been using a Rega-derived arm (Origin Live) for years on a Techie with no issues with the arm lift whatsoever. I use the Origin Live arm board (the old version for the threaded base), maybe that's where the difference lies?
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