NAS Super-Low Noise Linear Power Supply [Archive]

Marco

10-04-2017, 21:24

I'd been talking to Duncan (Tubehunter) about building me a dedicated linear PSU for my Seagate (5TB) NAS drives (suppling music files to the RPi), to replace the stock switch-mode units, which like all items of that nature, chuck a lot of noise into the mains.

My thinking was that as well as reducing that pollution, which could have been having an adverse knock-on effect on my main system, ultimately receiving its power from the same mains supply, it may also improve the sonic performance of the RPi, so I bought all the necessary bits, gave them to Duncan, and this is what he came up with:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/vWdXIT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnvWdXITj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/R4W8as.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poR4W8asj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/MtlPHi.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poMtlPHij)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/W0Mr4n.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnW0Mr4nj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/1s90O8.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pn1s90O8j)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/KGM9AL.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poKGM9ALj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/UfG0Rs.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmUfG0Rsj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/LT9n79.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnLT9n79j)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/yfkjIk.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnyfkjIkj)

Total expenditure on parts: £165.00

Links to main components...

Power module for PSU: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121828014441?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Casing: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/142151538280?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Transformer Toroidal 80VA 2x15V o/p: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/toroidal-transformers/2238673/?searchTerm=2238673&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E525353746F636B4E756D6 265724D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C267 06D3D5E5C647B367D247C5E5C647B377D247C5E5C647B31307 D2426706F3D313426736E3D592673743D52535F53544F434B5 F4E554D4245522677633D4E4F4E45267573743D32323338363 733267374613D3232333836373326

FN9260 IEC950 2 fused inlet filter,4A: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/iec-filters/1889624/?searchTerm=1889624&relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E525353746F636B4E756D6 265724D504E266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C267 06D3D5E5C647B367D247C5E5C647B377D247C5E5C647B31307 D2426706F3D313426736E3D592673743D52535F53544F434B5 F4E554D4245522677633D4E4F4E45267573743D31383839363 234267374613D3138383936323426

Other sundry items sourced from Maplins.

Could it be the best linear PSU out there, with which to power a NAS hard-drive? I think so... It should form a formidable partnership with the Paul Hynes SR3DR-05 linear PSU, powering the RPi. Can't wait to try it out! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

10-04-2017, 23:18

Duncan is also making me up a mains lead for the PSU, using this MS HD 13A plug, from Hi-fi Collective: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/hd_power_ms328.html

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/aQKCxT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnaQKCxTj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/gTLxyT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmgTLxyTj)

And a Yarbo pure-copper IEC plug, again from Hi-fi Collective: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/ya_audio_copper_iec_plug.html

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/ZnjMQF.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnZnjMQFj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/1VRkkR.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po1VRkkRj)

Yes, I like my copper! :eyebrows:

The wire itself will simply be some good quality stuff Duncan had bought a while ago, on a reel, from RS. No serious skimping on any aspect of the design of this PSU. All are simply sensible choices, free from any 'foo'... :)

Marco.

WESTLOWER

11-04-2017, 07:37

Marco

11-04-2017, 07:52

Looks good Marco although there is some debate to the effectiveness of a linear PSU on a NAS drive
Any concrete findings on this?
This is a route I was considering but was talked out of by an engineer twice !

Hi Adam,

I'll let you know once it's installed, as the unit is currently at Duncan's, awaiting arrival of parts to make the mains lead. You're quite right in terms of the effectiveness issue, as objectively it appears to make little sense.

My view is that even if it doesn't, it's just a cleaner way of powering the drives, as I absolutely detest the cheapo SMPS units, supplied with this kind of stuff - and it looks sexy! :)

Forget what anyone else thinks, is my advice, and go with what your gut instincts say could work :cool:

Full report to come!

Marco.

Jimbo

11-04-2017, 07:56

Never thought linear power supply would make an difference to NAS drive. I will go and investigate:scratch:

WESTLOWER

11-04-2017, 08:05

Marco

11-04-2017, 08:08

Never thought linear power supply would make an difference to NAS drive. I will go and investigate:scratch:

I don't know if it does yet, Jim! ;) I guess we'll soon find out...

I'm just very anti having multiple (noisy) wall wart SMPS units pumping crap into my mains supply, which could be having an adverse effect on any other kit sharing the same supply, so any sonic improvements heard may result from that, rather than anything else. A little 'thinking outside of the box', as it were....

Furthermore, as you know, I'm very big on maxing out how equipment receives its power from the mains supply, so this little project reflects my 'completist nature', in that respect :)

Plus, I'm thoroughly of the opinion that what fundamentally impedes the sonic performance of music streaming systems, is the inherently noisy nature of their design, as computers (which essentially these things represent) are fundamentally noisy things!

So the thinking is to minimise the negative sonic influences of having a computer in the music reproduction chain, as much as possible.

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 08:19

Look forward to your impressions Marco
I have to say, I am very tempted.
I did the linear psu on the Rpi3
I have heard arguments both ways regarding the NAS
So it will be interesting.
Your right it looks a darn sight nicer than the stock PSU!!

I doubt it'll have the same dramatic sonic effect as fitting a linear PSU to the Pi itself, but you never know! Plus, like you say, the new unit looks a damn sight nicer, and befitting of being part of a high-end music streamer (at least in terms of performance, if not price) :)

The plan is also to have some nice wooden wall shelves installed downstairs, in what will become my music streaming 'NAS station', so the Seagate drives, PSU and router will all sit together and look nice and tidy, streaming music wirelessly to the RPi in the lounge next door (and also to my main system upstairs).

Happy days! :cool:

Marco.

Jimbo

11-04-2017, 08:20

Were you using a wall wart before? Anything that can improve noisy mains rubbish getting into your system must be worth it and I presume NAS drives are susceptible to this. Computer audio as I have witnessed does seem to benefit from clean power supply and very good cabling. I have heard the difference between say bog standard cat4 or 5 and cat7. I know that some of the very top DAC manufactures are now paying great attention to their power supplies and going to great lengths to improve RFI suppression/ interference.

Marco

11-04-2017, 08:34

Were you using a wall wart before?

Yes, as that's what comes with the Seagate units as standard, and indeed I presume with any other commercially available NAS drives.

Anything that can improve noisy mains rubbish getting into your system must be worth it and I presume NAS drives are susceptible to this.

Indeed, which is why I'm doing it.

Computer audio as I have witnessed does seem to benefit from clean power supply and very good cabling. I have heard the difference between say bog standard cat4 or 5 and cat7.

I agree, and experience gained from experimenting in that area bears that out. However, although I heard subtle sonic improvements going from cat4 to cat6a, the difference wasn't dramatic. For me, the dramatic differences come from improving PSU arrangements.

I know that some of the very top DAC manufactures are now paying great attention to their power supplies and going to great lengths to improve RFI suppression/ interference.

It's fundamentally important, and I discovered the benefits of doing it many years ago, when modifying and upgrading my Sony DAC.

However, this is about steaming systems/music servers, where I believe the same thinking applies - and the exercise here is to take an RPi set-up (with its main linear PSU) into the veritable high-end, by having it fed by ultra-low noise power, throughout the mains supply chain, and turn it into even more of a giant killer...

I was largely responsible for introducing AoS members to the joys of the RPi, and high-quality music streaming on the cheap, so this new PSU is simply part of that, and furthering the 'SPPV' approach to audio, which we continually champion here on AoS :)

Marco.

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 08:59

.... although I heard subtle sonic improvements going from cat4 to cat6a ....

Cat4, eh?
I don't think I've encountered that.

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 09:02

I do agree with the idea that linear PSUs might improve things simply by not spraying high frequency switching noise over the local electrical supply.

struth

11-04-2017, 09:03

Use 6 myself. No idea if its sonically better, but when buying new cables i read 6 was one of the best overall, and cost wasnt extreme.

WESTLOWER

11-04-2017, 09:14

I have heard the difference between say bog standard cat4 or 5 and cat7.

Hi James, are you saying there its a sound quality difference between Cat 5 to Say Cat 6 Ethernet Cables across your home network??
Please your thoughts

Marco

11-04-2017, 09:27

Cat4, eh?
I don't think I've encountered that.

Lol - was probably cat5, then. Let's not argue over a pussy or two! :D

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 09:28

I do agree with the idea that linear PSUs might improve things simply by not spraying high frequency switching noise over the local electrical supply.

That's the main object of the exercise.

Marco.

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 09:33

Lol - was probably cat5, then. Let's not argue over a pussy or two! :D

Marco.

The numbers and suffixes are important.
Cat5 does not support gigabit working.
Cat5e does support gigabit working.

Marco

11-04-2017, 09:34

struth

11-04-2017, 09:40

Marco

11-04-2017, 09:44

It's excellent, and cheap as chips! Plus, I'm only using 2 x 0.5m lengths of it, simply to connect the router to the NAS drives, as the rest is done wirelessly! No dropouts so far here, either :)

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 09:45

Bespoke mains lead now built:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/BM0lMN.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmBM0lMNj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/WOZhNI.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnWOZhNIj)

Love the rather 'purposeful' look of those connectors!!

Off to collect the whole shebang later... Can't wait! :cool:

Marco.

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 09:55

Yes indeed, so thanks for the clarification. cat5e, it was. Now use this stuff, which offered a subtle, but noticeable sonic upgrade:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B003CL2UC0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Marco.

I have a Cat6 backbone and patch leads already.

The cable you linked to has shielding, and if it's not connected to ground the shielding is likely to act as an aerial. Using shielded cabling without properly earthing the installation can cause more problems than it cures, which is why there's no shielded data cabling here.
If I lived near an electrified railway line I'd probably go to the trouble of properly installing shielded network cabling. Them 'lectric choo choos create huge amounts of RF noise, and the overhead HT cable has a permanent field around it too.

The Black Adder

11-04-2017, 10:16

Looking great.

The cable looks decent too!

I want to do something with my HDD psu eventually... to get rid of the cacky switching ones would be of a benefit IMO.

I would also like to possibly upgrade from my SBooster BOBW linear supply... or maybe have it upgraded? Not sure if it's worth it though.

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 11:01

I've found the SBooster filters to be very beneficial to sound quality on my network switches.
The switch from Cat5e to Cat6 patch leads was subtle, but repeatable - the buffer on my Squeezebox Touch is big enough to permit switching of patch leads while the thing is playing. There's a short delay of 15 seconds or so, and a small change in sound quality. I ended up leaving the Cat6 patch leads in permanently.
Putting the SBooster filter onto the power cable of the switch my Squeezebox is connected to was a WTF moment - it is a very noticeable step forward in sound quality.

https://markgrant.co.uk/101-thickbox_default/sbooster-for-squeezebox-touch-and-classic.jpg

Stryder5

11-04-2017, 11:45

I was impressed that you managed to customise the fuse "MARCO". :D

Duncan is also making me up a mains lead for the PSU, using this MS HD 13A plug, from Hi-fi Collective: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/hd_power_ms328.html

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/aQKCxT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnaQKCxTj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/922/gTLxyT.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmgTLxyTj)

And a Yarbo pure-copper IEC plug, again from Hi-fi Collective: https://www.hificollective.co.uk/power_connectors/ya_audio_copper_iec_plug.html

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/923/ZnjMQF.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnZnjMQFj)

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/924/1VRkkR.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po1VRkkRj)

Yes, I like my copper! :eyebrows:

The wire itself will simply be some good quality stuff Duncan had bought a while ago, on a reel, from RS. No serious skimping on any aspect of the design of this PSU. All are simply sensible choices, free from any 'foo'... :)

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 12:20

The cable you linked to has shielding, and if it's not connected to ground the shielding is likely to act as an aerial. Using shielded cabling without properly earthing the installation can cause more problems than it cures, which is why there's no shielded data cabling here.

Good point, mate. I'll look into that :)

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 12:23

Hi Jo,

Looking great.

The cable looks decent too!

I want to do something with my HDD psu eventually... to get rid of the cacky switching ones would be of a benefit IMO.

I would also like to possibly upgrade from my SBooster BOBW linear supply... or maybe have it upgraded? Not sure if it's worth it though.

Dunno about your PSU SBooster, but I'll let you know what I think about the PSU Dunc's built. Just brought it home now, and yes both it and the mains lead look fab! Full report later :cool:

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 12:24

I was impressed that you managed to customise the fuse "MARCO". :D

Not sure what you mean, Gary... That's just the one that came with the plug.

Marco.

struth

11-04-2017, 12:25

Not sure what you mean, Gary... That's just the one that came with the plug.

Marco.

Reading the lettering on fuse it looks a bit like marco

Marco

11-04-2017, 12:29

Ah, I see... It says MARBO - a well known fuse make. Good one! :D

Marco.

Stryder5

11-04-2017, 12:34

Sometimes I think my sense of humour is misplaced.

Bigman80

11-04-2017, 12:55

Sometimes I think my sense of humour is misplaced.
[emoji23]

Sent from my EVA-L09 using Tapatalk

Stratmangler

11-04-2017, 14:15

Good point, mate. I'll look into that :)

Marco.

I wouldn't worry too much about the aerial thing in your case - I spotted that the cable you'd linked to is only 0.5m in length, and that's not going make much of an aerial.
All they can test for with that length is that the pairs pin out in the correct order, and that there's continuity on the shield. The testers they use to certify cable are calibrated to work from 1m and up.

Marco

11-04-2017, 14:27

Yeah, mate, I was thinking pretty much the same thing earlier. Different if I were using much longer lengths.

Marco.

Marco

11-04-2017, 21:10

Oh fuck, how can this be happening...?? :eek::eek: :scratch::mental:

I think I've just unearthed another 'amazing discovery'! More on that tomorrow. Tonight, many forms of music will be listened to until the wee small hours...

L8trs, muchachos.

Marco.

Rothchild

12-04-2017, 08:35

Looking good Marco, and way better than that nasty wall wart you showed me!

Great work Duncan, what's the final spec on this box - how much current will it deliver?

Marco

12-04-2017, 09:11

Well, I was up rather late listening to music and enjoying the very surprising sonic improvements this linear PSU has brought to the party...

The most noticeable aspect of those improvements is the presence of greater overall solidity to the sound, grounded in weightier, more muscular low-frequency extension, which provides music with the firmest foundation on which to create a very convincing and natural rendition of voices and instruments. The extra 'heft' now available really does succeed in fleshing out the sound of drums and bass guitar in particular, increasing the fun factor and lifelike nature of the music accordingly.

However, equally significant is the fundamental removal of a gritty, grainy quality and 'false sheen', which previously was superimposing itself on the music, occasionally making it a little fatiguing to listen to, particularly when the recording quality was not the best - and I hear this effect (a type of mid-forward 'glare') all the time, to greater or lesser degrees, with digital music sources that aren't yet fully 'sorted', in order to compete with the best analogue varieties.

With the addition of the linear PSU, that 'glare' and gritty, grainy quality has now all but gone (I don't believe such can ever be fully eradicated, as I consider it inherent in the nature of digital replay), but it no longer draws attention to itself in any major way, and consequently music is now reproduced with a greater sense of 'ease', and that added 'effortless quality' really helps you relax into the music, forgetting about the sound, subsequently promoting extended listening sessions, without your ears becoming fatigued after a while, which can often be the case when listening to CDs or other digitally-derived music.

All this equates to a rather more 'analogue' musical presentation from the RPi, but with the clarity, dynamic headroom and sonic alacrity of the best digital sources. and nary a trace of the 'hardness' often associated with digital replay, in comparison with the best of what's possible with analogue. Consequently, the sonic signature of the RPi is now akin to that of a good turntable, and eminently as satisfying to listen to, especially with recordings able to showcase its remarkable levels of musical insight.

And here's the clincher....

To my ears (and I was analysing this very carefully last night when listening to many different genres of music), adding a linear PSU to the Seagate drives has resulted in a BIGGER overall sonic upgrade than doing so to the RPi itself! :eek:

The improvements are simply more fundamental across the board, subsequently elevating the performance of the RPi to an area that, as good as was achieved with the addition of the main linear PSU, simply didn't happen to the same degree. The effect of this particular upgrade is akin to adding a high-quality off-board PSU to a top-notch CD player. Those who've been there and done that will know where I'm coming from. Yes, *that* significant!

So..... Going down the route of adding a quality linear PSU to power my NAS hard-drives has turned out to be a resounding success, but the question is WHY? :hmm:

The fact is, what I'm hearing appears to be too much of an improvement to have come solely from not spraying high-frequency switching noise over the local electrical supply. Unless that situation *really* was bad before. No, I suspect something else is happening here, out with of simply reducing mains distortion, which is somehow allowing the music contained in the Seagate hard-drives to maintain its sonic integrity to a greater degree, before being transferred to and processed by the RPi itself.

Anyway, I'll leave the 'techies' to argue over that and try and figure it out... Me? I'll just enjoy the best sounding music I've yet heard from the RPi, which performance-wise has now unquestionably entered the 'big league', but without the price tag to match!

I would encourage others here using their RPi in conjunction with music stored on external hard-drives, to go down the route of powering them with a high-quality low-noise linear PSU, as the results of doing so, for me, are quite simply, a no-brainer :cool:

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 09:17

Looking good Marco, and way better than that nasty wall wart you showed me!

Yeah, isn't it just! :D

Thanks for helping talk me out of it... ;)

Marco.

walpurgis

12-04-2017, 09:20

Not the kind of music source that I use Marco. But it does make sense to have 'clean' power with a bit of reserve in hand wherever possible in my view. So any potential reduction in noise can only be a good thing.

tubehunter

12-04-2017, 10:05

Looking good Marco, and way better than that nasty wall wart you showed me!

Great work Duncan, what's the final spec on this box - how much current will it deliver?

Well it's only really limited by the transformer secondaries 2 x 2.6amp therefore around 5 amps, but the manufacturers are usually pretty conservative.

The output pass MOSFETs are high-current 30amp devices.

WESTLOWER

12-04-2017, 11:40

Well done Marco, this is what I wanted to ascertain.
Interesting and up until these impressions, controversial.. full steam ahead for me!

Arkless Electronics

12-04-2017, 12:01

I hope I'm not treading on any toes here but just a reminder for any one interested that I can build power supplies of the highest quality and for any purpose. Yes, for any purpose... everything from a 2.7V supply for certain digital stuff to 500V or more for a valve power amp (like border patrol etc).
Applications are as wide as your imagination!

Marco

12-04-2017, 12:34

Well it's only really limited by the transformer secondaries 2 x 2.6amp therefore around 5 amps, but the manufacturers are usually pretty conservative.

The output pass MOSFETs are high-current 30amp devices.

Nice one, Dunc. Your suggestions for how to go about this project certainly worked out, and you've done a great job, so congrats mate! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 12:36

Well done Marco, this is what I wanted to ascertain.
Interesting and up until these impressions, controversial.. full steam ahead for me!

Good stuff, Adam. I think you'll be pleased with the results. The plaudits, however, should go to Dunc, as I only came up with the idea - he made it happen! :)

Marco.

WESTLOWER

12-04-2017, 12:47

I hear ya Marco, cheers Dunc, but you put your money up and went in blind..ish..!

Good stuff, Adam. I think you'll be pleased with the results. The plaudits, however, should go to Dunc, as I only came up with the idea - he made it happen! :)

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 12:58

Lol - yeah, but taking such 'punts' is par for the course. It's just how I do things, and for me, the only way you learn! :)

Marco.

Macca

12-04-2017, 13:05

You can always offset the cost by flogging your Sony Cd player to me since you are not going to be needing it no more...:eyebrows:

Marco

12-04-2017, 14:24

Lol... Then how will I play all those shiny silver frisbees I've still got? :eyebrows:

However, in terms of sound quality, the linear PSU has certainly brought the RPi much closer to the Sony... There's probably less than 6% between them now, in that respect, but separated by £1000's, in terms of cost! ;)

Marco.

WAD62

12-04-2017, 14:40

Lol... How will I play all those shiny silver frisbees I've still got? :eyebrows:

However, in terms of sound quality, the linear PSU has certainly brought the RPi much closer to the Sony... There's probably less than 6% between them now, but separated by £1000's, in terms of cost! ;)

Marco.

Hi Marco, let me clarify my understanding, you're also experiencing a noticeable improvement from a better PSU on your NAS?

what's your streaming architecture?

e.g. mine is a NAS with FLAC library running LMS (stock PSU) -> streaming FLAC -> Rpi2/piCorePlayer/wifi/Audiophonics DAC IiFi PSU)

To my mind the streaming of the FLAC data between the devices is still in the realms of IT, via TCP/IP, and as I recall your pi is connected via wifi, so that rules out pollution via ethernet...very confusing, unless you're transcoding at the server end :scratch:

Marco

12-04-2017, 15:04

Hi Will,

Hi Marco, let me clarify my understanding, you're also experiencing a noticeable improvement from a better PSU on your NAS?

what's your streaming architecture?

Yes, you understand correctly :)

Mine is NAS with FLAC/hi-res library running (I don't know, what's 'LMS', lol?) > streaming FLAC/hi-res > RPi Model B/Moode (latest version)/wifi/IQ-Audio DAC/Paul Hynes SR3DR-05 linear PSU.

To my mind the streaming of the FLAC data between the devices is still in the realms of IT, via TCP/IP, and as I recall your pi is connected via wifi, so that rules out pollution via ethernet...very confusing :scratch:

Yes, it is a little... However in terms of the latter, I still have ethernet cable (cat6a) connecting the router to the Seagate NAS drives, albeit only 2x 0.5m lengths, so although minimal, there's still exists the potential for pollution.

And has been said before, what is almost certain, is that the original wall-wart PSUs, supplied with the Seagate drives, would've been injecting the mains supply with high-frequency switching noise, so removing that from the equation will have resulted in some form of audible benefit, just not IMO to the degree that was actually achieved, which trust me, wasn't subtle!

Like I said, if you've ever added a high-quality off-board PSU to a CD player (e.g. reminds me in the old days of fitting an XPS to a Naim CDX), the sonic benefit obtained from fitting the linear PSU to the NAS drives is akin to that level of improvement.

Honestly, its instantaneous and very easily heard :cool:

Marco.

WAD62

12-04-2017, 16:03

Mine is NAS with FLAC/hi-res library running (I don't know, what's 'LMS', lol?) > streaming FLAC/hi-res > RPi Model B/Moode (latest version)/wifi/IQ-Audio DAC/Paul Hynes SR3DR-05 linear PSU.

Ah sorry, LMS is Logitech Media Server, which runs on my NAS, serving up FLAC files to 4 'squeezebox' clients, one of which is a pi2/audiophonics/iFi PSU, running picoreplayer/squeezelite, connected via wifi...

I know that one can configure LMS to transcode at the server end and stream pcm, however I leave it to stream the native FLAC file...and transcode at the player end

Does Moode have an equivalent 'server' component? :scratch:

Paul Hynes

12-04-2017, 16:17

Marco

12-04-2017, 16:20

Ah sorry, LMS is Logitech Media Server, which runs on my NAS, serving up FLAC files to 4 'squeezebox' clients, one of which is a pi2/audiophonics/iFi PSU, running picoreplayer/squeezelite, connected via wifi...

I know that one can configure LMS to transcode at the server end and stream pcm, however I leave it to stream the native FLAC file...and transcode at the player end

Does Moode have an equivalent 'server' component? :scratch:

Sorry, Will, but all this 'computer lingo' is largely gobbledygook to me. I have a smattering of the basics, but that's about it. My level of interest in that area is simply that it all works! ;)

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 16:24

Hi Marco,

Aside from the obvious noise issues and supply line pollution with switching supplies, the regulation and supply line interference rejection of all but the high end types leaves something to be desired.

A good linear power supply will be much less noisy but should also have better transient response and settling time as well as having a low output impedance over all load operating frequencies to maintain regulation with the large load current swings that can occur load transient events. It should also provide as much supply line rejection as possible over as wide a frequency range as possible to reduce the effects of incoming mains born interference. Switching regulators are not usually notable in these performance areas.

Regards
Paul

Hi Paul,

Great hearing from you, mate. How are things? I was a bit concerned about you, as I knew you weren't keeping too well, and had allowed the business to take a back seat for a bit, so I hope things have picked up in both respects :)

Interesting what you've said... So you consider that there are sound technical reasons why I've obtained such notable sonic benefits from simply supplying my NAS drives with a quality linear PSU, as opposed to the stock wall-wart units - even though, technically, they're not in line with the signal path?

One always wonders if one is imagining these things!

Marco.

P.S What do you think of what Duncan has done? :cool:

Paul Hynes

12-04-2017, 17:28

Hi Marco,

I’m more or less OK again now, thanks. Unfortunately it would appear that I am no longer invincible and I will have to pay more attention to my health in future. I am working on getting more help with the business, which in the longer term will ease my workload, but it is a slow process getting things done up here.

Regarding equipment power supplies I have not yet found any equipment that does not benefit from better engineering in the power supply, whether analogue or digital, sound or video equipment, domestic or pro-audio. Of course cost can be a big issue in this area and most commercial equipment has to face the cost accountant at the design phase, so there is always some compromise along the way. You are not imagining things when you improve the engineering of your power supplies.

Out of interest there has been much discussion about digital interface items, audio servers, NAS storage, and power supplies over on Computer Audiophile in the rather long thread :-

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/

Well worth the read with much pioneering work on improving digital audio systems.

Duncan’s power supply build is nicely put together and well finished. Good work Duncan. I have no personal experience with the chosen regulator power module but would expect an improvement over a switching power supply, which is what you have found.

I hope all is well at home.

Regards
Paul

WAD62

12-04-2017, 17:41

Sorry, Will, but all this 'computer lingo' is largely gobbledygook to me. I have a smattering of the basics, but that's about it. My level of interest in that area is simply that it all works! ;)

Marco.

No problem Marco, just trying to work out why or how the NAS PSU can have a beneficial impact on a physically unconnected pi/dac combo...:eyebrows:

Spectral Morn

12-04-2017, 17:50

Marco

12-04-2017, 17:55

Read the thread on Computer Audiophile Paul has linked to, for some clues. This bit from the OP, for me, is both significant and relevant:

What I wasn't prepared to experience, however, was how a good low noise, low impedance power supply would also transform my upstream components including a simple NUC or Mac Mini even with the microRendu or sMS-200 in place (I own both of these units). It was surprising to find out that even my internet modem/router similarly benefited. It turns out that while ethernet is good for isolating noise, it cannot fix a signal already molested at the modem/router or music server level.

I think he's onto something there! Couple that with what Paul outlined in his opening post, and I think there are sound enough technical reasons, which go some way towards explaining what I'm hearing, which most certainly isn't imagined.

Interesting (and indeed relevant) too, because I've discussed with Duncan about how to modify the PSU so that it also powers my router.... Does the fun ever end? :eyebrows:

Marco.

Paul Hynes

12-04-2017, 18:03

Hi Will,

If a NAS supply is of poor quality any voltage variations on the supply line caused by noise, transient overshoot and ringing in the power supply system can feed through into the signal lines causing small errors in the digital stream waveform. These can translate into small timing errors, which is effectively adding jitter to the digital stream. Downstream equipment may not be able to reject incoming jitter effectively enough to render the jitter harmless. It is better to solve the problem at source rather than attempting to patch the problem at a later stage.

Also any switching power supply in your system may well be polluting the mains feed to other equipment in your system that has poor rejection capability of mains born interference.

All these sources of signal intrusion add up to reduced sound quality so attending to each power supply in the system will improve the overall system performance progressively.

Regards
Paul

Marco

12-04-2017, 18:16

Hi Paul,

I’m more or less OK again now, thanks. Unfortunately it would appear that I am no longer invincible and I will have to pay more attention to my health in future. I am working on getting more help with the business, which in the longer term will ease my workload, but it is a slow process getting things done up here.

Good to hear, Paul, Yes, as we all get older, we're definitely not as 'invincible' as we once thought we were! If there's anything I can do to help with the latter, let me know and I'd be glad to :)

Regarding equipment power supplies I have not yet found any equipment that does not benefit from better engineering in the power supply, whether analogue or digital, sound or video equipment, domestic or pro-audio. Of course cost can be a big issue in this area and most commercial equipment has to face the cost accountant at the design phase, so there is always some compromise along the way. You are not imagining things when you improve the engineering of your power supplies.

Nice one. The level of sonic improvement is such (existing at a fundamental musical level) that it would be hard to imagine it's not real. For me, with computer audio, it's all about providing the music signal with as noise-free an 'environment' as possible, as computers are inherently noisy devices.

Successfully address that issue, and the results can be stunning - eclipsing those produced by even the very best CDPs, and at a fraction of the price, simply because of the lack of any physical interface reading musical data, susceptible to vibration and prone to errors, the effects of which, IME, attendant correction circuitry never fully resolves.

It then all comes down to the capabilities of partnering DAC......... And the beauty of the IQ Audio one is that it's hard-wired to the RPi's circuitry, creating a super-short signal path. blissfully free from the deleterious effects of sonically degrading connecting digital cables, and when powered by one of your superb linear PSUs, it's about as good as modern digital replay gets.

Out of interest there has been much discussion about digital interface items, audio servers, NAS storage, and power supplies over on Computer Audiophile in the rather long thread :-

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-the-sms-200-and-microrendu/

Well worth the read with much pioneering work on improving digital audio systems.

Indeed, and a rather novel use for an SR7! Somewhat 'extravagant' in that application, no? :eek:

Duncan’s power supply build is nicely put together and well finished. Good work Duncan. I have no personal experience with the chosen regulator power module but would expect an improvement over a switching power supply, which is what you have found.

Nice one. Duncan identified the power module, as he rated it. Perhaps he will explain why... It certainly seems to be doing the biz, especially for the money it cost from China! Same applies to the casing, which is phenomenal quality for the cost involved.

I hope all is well at home.

We're all fine, thanks. Looking forward to the summer, and also the completion of our new (bespoke) kitchen! :cool:

Marco.

WAD62

12-04-2017, 18:28

Hi Will,
If a NAS supply is of poor quality any voltage variations on the supply line caused by noise, transient overshoot and ringing in the power supply system can feed through into the signal lines causing small errors in the digital stream waveform. These can translate into small timing errors, which is effectively adding jitter to the digital stream. Downstream equipment may not be able to reject incoming jitter effectively enough to render the jitter harmless. It is better to solve the problem at source rather than attempting to patch the problem at a later stage.

Hi Paul, I can absolutely understand that, in the case of PCM being streamed from the NAS, however in the case of a FLAC file being transfered via TCP/IP, into a player's buffer, for subsequent transcoding at the player end, I'm struggling...;)

Hence me asking if Marco transcoded at the NAS...

Marco

12-04-2017, 18:36

Could the improvement not be in NAS performance, or the Pi, but simply removing noise from the mains that the system uses ? This could be the source of the improvement that reduction in crap pumped into the overall mains supply that pre and power amps draw from.

Yes, that's already been considered and likely to partly explain the improvements gained.

Removing switched PSUs, particularly cheap nasty types supplied with hard drives, NAS etc is always a good thing. I get round it by having a separate spur isolated from where I hook up such crap PSUs. I have two dedicated mains outlets off a dedicated audio consumer unit and one general one coming off the house consumer unit for hooking PC, HD PSUs etc.

Smart move. I also do something similar.

The fact is, with increasing mobile phone usage, and the multitude of masts going up all over the place, to facilitate the demand (all generating RFI), together with many forms of modern electrical equipment using crappy switching PSUs, all plugged into and 'infecting' our mains supplies, not forgetting the deleterious noisy knock-on effects of the 'energy saving' lightbulbs most folks now use, the mains has never been more polluted - and things are only set to get worse! :rolleyes:

I'm convinced it's one of the reasons why some hi-fi systems we remember listening to and sounding fab, 20-30 years ago, did so - a sound that we often struggle to replicate now, even with technically much better equipment........

Marco.

tubehunter

12-04-2017, 18:42

Some info on which this module is based:

http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/

Happy Days

Spectral Morn

12-04-2017, 18:43

Yes, that's already been considered and likely to partly explain the improvements gained.

Smart move. I also do something similar.

The fact is, with increasing mobile phone usage, and the multitude of masts going up all over the place, to facilitate the demand (generating RFI), together with many forms of modern electrical equipment using crappy switching PSUs, all plugged into and 'infecting' our mains supplies, not forgetting the deleterious noisy knock-on effects of the energy-saving lightbulbs most folks now use, the mains has never been more polluted - and things are only set to get worse! :rolleyes:

I'm convinced it's one of the reasons why some systems we remember listening to and sounding fab, 20-30 years ago, did so - a sound that we often struggle to replicate now, even with technically much better equipment........

Marco.

Interesting thought.

Marco

12-04-2017, 19:02

Interesting thought.

As you know from experience, I'm capable of generating a few now and then! It's what comes from applying a little lateral thinking... ;)

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 19:12

Some info on which this module is based on

http://www.amb.org/audio/sigma11/

Interesting, Dunc, and also that MOSFETs feature prominently in the design :)

I'm trying to get Ian to abandon using his PC as a music storage device, and convert to off-board NAS units, powered by one of your linear PSUs. Tell 'im it makes sense! ;)

Marco.

Marco

12-04-2017, 21:52

Good news also is that the components in the PSU are burning in now, and consequently it's getting even better! :eyebrows:

Marco.

TheFlash

12-04-2017, 22:19

Could the improvement not be in NAS performance, or the Pi, but simply removing noise from the mains that the system uses ? This could be the source of the improvement that reduction in crap pumped into the overall mains supply that pre and power amps draw from.

Removing switched PSUs, particularly cheap nasty types supplied with hard drives, NAS etc is always a good thing. I get round it by having a separate spur isolated from where I hook up such crap PSUs. I have two dedicated mains outlets off a dedicated audio consumer unit and one general one coming off the house consumer unit for hooking PC, HD PSUs etc.

What he says^.

I have a dedicated mains feed to my modest system and could swear it makes a 5-10% (whatever that means - audible, basically) difference. My NAS sits on the general house supply, so the only way I would get an improved performance through running it off a linear PSU (as I do my Squeezebox and iRDAC which are on the dedicated mains) would be by somehow cleaning up the 0s and 1s being read off the drives and transmitted along the Cat6 cabling to the Squeezebox.

I struggle with how I might improve a stream of 0s and 1s, even if it's from a typically dirty house mains to a clean dedicated hifi one. Do the 0s and 1s change shape? Do extra ones sneak in? Do some of them get tired and give up on the journey? I genuinely "get" the benefits of linear PSUs over switched, I just can't apply that to a NAS as I can't see what it would change at the 0s and 1s level.

Marco

12-04-2017, 22:39

Can't really argue with that, Nigel, but then neither can I with the (very clearly audible) sonic improvements I'm hearing either, since installing the linear PSU.... ;)

Perhaps read what Paul Hynes had to say again on the subject, as he truly is an expert in PSU design, of all descriptions.

Marco.

killie99

13-04-2017, 07:17

I built a power supply, using an original AMB labs Sigma22 board, for my Project Phono RS phono stage. Make a big difference to the phono stage so I may build another one to power my RPi and SSD.

http://stuartlittlejohn.f2s.com/inside.JPG

http://stuartlittlejohn.f2s.com/front.jpg

http://stuartlittlejohn.f2s.com/rear.jpg

Macca

13-04-2017, 07:31

What he says^.

I have a dedicated mains feed to my modest system and could swear it makes a 5-10% (whatever that means - audible, basically) difference. My NAS sits on the general house supply, so the only way I would get an improved performance through running it off a linear PSU (as I do my Squeezebox and iRDAC which are on the dedicated mains) would be by somehow cleaning up the 0s and 1s being read off the drives and transmitted along the Cat6 cabling to the Squeezebox.

I struggle with how I might improve a stream of 0s and 1s, even if it's from a typically dirty house mains to a clean dedicated hifi one. Do the 0s and 1s change shape? Do extra ones sneak in? Do some of them get tired and give up on the journey? I genuinely "get" the benefits of linear PSUs over switched, I just can't apply that to a NAS as I can't see what it would change at the 0s and 1s level.

I'm speculating obviously but whilst the 0s and 1s might stay the same the amount of noise transmitted with them might be altered. That won't make any difference if you are sending a Word document but if you are sending a signal that will ultimately be translated into sound waves and heard then I think it conceivable that it might make a difference. The 0s and 1s are just variations in the voltage of an electrical transmission in the same way as the signal from amp to speakers is. If the latter can transmit noise why not the former?

Marco

13-04-2017, 07:45

Impressive, Stuart. Looks like you've used the same case as me :)

I'm sure you'll achieve major sonic benefits if you build one for your RPi and SSD, and if you do, please chronicle the build on here, for the perusal of the membership :cool:

Marco.

Paul Hynes

13-04-2017, 10:29

Hi Marco,

Originally Posted by Paul Hynes
I’m more or less OK again now, thanks. Unfortunately it would appear that I am no longer invincible and I will have to pay more attention to my health in future. I am working on getting more help with the business, which in the longer term will ease my workload, but it is a slow process getting things done up here.

Good to hear, Paul, Yes, as we all get older, we're definitely not as 'invincible' as we once thought we were! If there's anything I can do to help with the latter, let me know and I'd be glad to.

I am not sure there is anything that you could do to help with getting things done up here, but I am all ears if you have any ideas. This area is designated a priority area for development by Scottish development agencies, to increase local employment opportunities, in a bid to arrest the depopulation that has been going on for decades. I was planning on retiring last August, but a chance meeting last autumn, with a retired development officer in the local supermarket, provided encouragement to make an effort to help, by setting up a replacement manufacturing facility here for the now closed Paul Hynes Audio Ltd. This would provide much needed industry diversification on the island and provide both the younger and older generations with local employment opportunities. Historically they have had to leave the island for College and University education, but after this education they do not return to the island due to lack of local employment opportunity. The net result of this is a declining population of ever increasing age and there are only around 1800 people living on the island at present. It would be sad to see South Uist go the same way as St Kilda, where the island population became unsustainable and everyone left, with the last person literally switching the light off.

There is a plan in place based on local development funding access and manpower support with a proposed site for the facility at the new Lochboisdale Marina development. The time consuming part is the acquisition of the very comprehensive data required for preparing the drawings for the building and the data required for the business plan and funding applications. I am also still building power supplies for audio on a custom basis at present, so I will be rather busy this over the next couple of years, although this will change once the project set up is accomplished.

1. Out of interest there has been much discussion about digital interface items, audio servers, NAS storage, and power supplies over on Computer Audiophile in the rather long thread :-

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/f...nd-microrendu/

Well worth the read with much pioneering work on improving digital audio systems.

Indeed, and a rather novel use for an SR7! Somewhat 'extravagant' in that application, no?

Not really extravagant as I have been providing SR7 and SR7MR (Multirail) power supplies for powering audio and video servers for years. They are used for both the server and the peripheral digital signal storage and processing items with considerable improvement in sound and video quality. The improvements are very similar to those you found with the SL1200 and Raspberry Pi power supplies. Essentially they remove a major cause of “digititis” and provide a robust musically engaging and dynamic three-dimensional presentation to music program. They also clean up power supply related video signal processing hash improving the screen image rendition.

We're all fine, thanks. Looking forward to the summer, and also the completion of our new (bespoke) kitchen!

I sense there will be some exceptional culinary work later this year at Marco Towers. Enjoy the moment.

Regards
Paul

WAD62

13-04-2017, 10:57

I'm speculating obviously but whilst the 0s and 1s might stay the same the amount of noise transmitted with them might be altered. That won't make any difference if you are sending a Word document but if you are sending a signal that will ultimately be translated into sound waves and heard then I think it conceivable that it might make a difference. The 0s and 1s are just variations in the voltage of an electrical transmission in the same way as the signal from amp to speakers is. If the latter can transmit noise why not the former?
My guess is that Marco's NAS is streaming PCM to the Pi, so we're already outside the IT domain IMHO, hence the negative effects of a low quality NAS PSU...if he could do the transcoding at the Pi end, and therefore stream the 'File', I doubt the PSU on the NAS would make much of an impact...:eyebrows:

Marco

13-04-2017, 11:11

TheFlash

13-04-2017, 11:15

I'm speculating obviously but whilst the 0s and 1s might stay the same the amount of noise transmitted with them might be altered. That won't make any difference if you are sending a Word document but if you are sending a signal that will ultimately be translated into sound waves and heard then I think it conceivable that it might make a difference. The 0s and 1s are just variations in the voltage of an electrical transmission in the same way as the signal from amp to speakers is. If the latter can transmit noise why not the former?

I'm way out of my depth here technically, but do understand that a "digital" cable is actually an analogue cable down which digital signals are sent. Between a NAS and a Squeezebox or DAC, that signal will start as a series of 0s and 1s and end as a series of 0s and 1s. Any "noise" must therefore manifest itself as corrupt digital data - a 0 where a 1 should be, or t'other way round, or maybe some extra 0s or 1s sneaking in, or some 0s and 1s falling by the wayside, or some sort of jumbled sequence. Is that correct?

WAD62

13-04-2017, 12:47

Sorry, Will, I'm trying to wrap my nut around what you're getting at... For starters, what's PCM and transcoding? :scratch:

And can you describe, in the clearest laymen terms possible, what distinction you're trying to make between 'transcoding' at the Pi and NAS ends respectively, and why you consider one method potentially more sonically advantageous (less liable to be influenced by noise, and hence the benefits of a linear PSU) than the other? :)

Marco.

Hi Marco, I'll try...

Whilst the data being transmitted is in 'File' format, eg the compressed FLAC file, or the WAV file etc. we are still in the realms of IT, I.E. a reliable File Transfer(TCP/IP), so there's all of the standard FTP protocols in place, so the file received by the player is bit for bit the same as the file sent.

Ultimately the 'File' will need to be converted to a data stream that can be consumed by a DAC, in this case PCM (pulse code modulation, DSD is a newer format), to my mind this is where we start moving out of the IT world and into the analogue world, where interference can occur, and bits are no longer bits etc. The process of converting a 'File' to a PCM stream is transcoding.

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end, I choose to transcode at the Pi end, firstly for network efficiency (I'm only transmitting a small FLAC file not a 2 * 1411 Khz PCM stream), and secondly I want to decouple my player from the NAS, all it does is send the unpolluted FLAC file.

In the earlier days of Squeezebox, when the players were a much lower spec than a Pi, some people preferred to Transcode to PCM at the server in order to take the load off the puny player (the CPU on the early SBs is a fraction of the Pi's power)...and felt they gained an improvement, hence this option exists in LMS.

I can't find anything about the streaming protocol used in Moode, but it would appear that Roon streams in PCM by default, something to do with synchronisation issues...

However I would like to be wrong in this instance, the idea of improving the SQ of 3k FLAC cd's with a relatively inexpensive NAS/PSU is very appealing...but I can't see how with my streaming architecture :scratch:

:cool:

EDIT: I've had a quick look at the moode installation instructions, and it would suggest that it's a stand alone player, that can refer to the NAS, so I'm even more confused!!! :scratch::scratch:

TheFlash

13-04-2017, 14:43

Hi Marco, I'll try...

Whilst the data being transmitted is in 'File' format, eg the compressed FLAC file, or the WAV file etc. we are still in the realms of IT, I.E. a reliable File Transfer(TCP/IP), so there's all of the standard FTP protocols in place, so the file received by the player is bit for bit the same as the file sent.

Ultimately the 'File' will need to be converted to a data stream that can be consumed by a DAC, in this case PCM (pulse code modulation, DSD is a newer format), to my mind this is where we start moving out of the IT world and into the analogue world, where interference can occur, and bits are no longer bits etc. The process of converting a 'File' to a PCM stream is transcoding.

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end, I choose to transcode at the Pi end, firstly for network efficiency (I'm only transmitting a small FLAC file not a 2 * 1411 Khz PCM stream), and secondly I want to decouple my player from the NAS, all it does is send the unpolluted FLAC file.

In the earlier days of Squeezebox, when the players were a much lower spec than a Pi, some people preferred to Transcode to PCM at the server in order to take the load off the puny player (the CPU on the early SBs is a fraction of the Pi's power)...and felt they gained an improvement, hence this option exists in LMS.

I can't find anything about the streaming protocol used in Moode, but it would appear that Roon streams in PCM by default, something to do with synchronisation issues...

However I would like to be wrong in this instance, the idea of improving the SQ of 3k FLAC cd's with a relatively inexpensive NAS/PSU is very appealing...but I can't see how with my streaming architecture :scratch:

:cool:

Great post, thanks!

WESTLOWER

13-04-2017, 14:55

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end,

Will....Please, What are the settings for the PCM conversion on LMS to Transcode at the Pi end? I would like to switch this to the Pi end if it is currently
Transcoding at the NAS...(i'm not near the equipment at the moment!)

Smegger68

13-04-2017, 14:57

A few minor errors in understanding here.

Whilst the data being transmitted is in 'File' format, eg the compressed FLAC file, or the WAV file etc. we are still in the realms of IT, I.E. a reliable File Transfer, so there's all of the standard FTP protocols in place, so the file received by the player is bit for bit the same as the file sent.

Data between the NAS and the Pi isn't in any form other than TCP/IP packets. This is the common internet transport protocol responsible for the webpage in front of you and millions of other reliable information transfers done every second. As you say, this ensures that the data on the NAS arrives at the Pi exactly the same. FTP is a Transfer protocol, not a Transport protocol.

Ultimately the 'File' will need to be converted to a data stream that can be consumed by a DAC, in this case PCM (pulse code modulation, DSD is a newer format), to my mind this is where we start moving out of the IT world and into the analogue world, where interference can occur, and bits are no longer bits etc. The process of converting a 'File' to a PCM stream is transcoding.

The process of converting one encoded data set to another is transcoding. PCM will be derived from the file by the codec built into the Pi and fed into the DAC. This is demodulation. Files are simply containers for various types of data - A/V file containers can contain data in several diffeerent types which is decided by the codec used at encoding time. This is important to know because when transcoding, the final file type will depend upon the new data set. For example, if you convert a FLAC @ 24/192 to 16/44.1, you can either choose to make the new file a FLAC or a WAV. File type is much less important than the actual encoding used within the file container. Video files are MUCH more complicated again :)

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end, I choose to transcode at the Pi end, firstly for network efficiency (I'm only transmitting a small FLAC file not a 2 * 1411 Khz PCM stream), and secondly I want to decouple my player from the NAS, all it does is send the unpolluted FLAC file.

This is essentially correct, the file could be transcoded at the NAS end into a WAV file (which is a file container for PCM) and sent to the Pi over the network for demodulation, or as you have it set up which is indeed more efficient.

It's an interesting thread, but it should be pointed out that improving power supplies to a NAS can only improve the sound by reducing mains noise that affects the analogue components of an audio system. The NAS operates in the digital domain which is agnostic to noise of this sort unless it's so bad that the system will simply just not work anymore. There is no gradual downgrade of a digital network signal - it works right up until the point at which error correction cannot cope and then it stops functioning. It should be remembered that the inside of your PC (or any digital device) is rife with RF noise and it doesn't stop you from logging on the AoS. Error correction within TCP/IP works all the time, it's effects are not felt in the time domain because TCP/IP is a buffered protocol. If anyone tells you that they are getting jitter from their NAS, you are safe to laugh at them. Jitter only occurs in streaming protocols like S/PDIF which are clock locked.

WAD62

13-04-2017, 15:01

Will....Please, What are the settings for the PCM conversion on LMS to Transcode at the Pi end? I would like to switch this to the Pi end if it is currently
Transcoding at the NAS...(i'm not near the equipment at the moment!)

The default setting for FLAC on LMS is 'Native' (so will send the FLAC as is), it's in the advanced settings/file types/ section...

WAD62

13-04-2017, 15:04

A few minor errors in understanding here.

Whilst the data being transmitted is in 'File' format, eg the compressed FLAC file, or the WAV file etc. we are still in the realms of IT, I.E. a reliable File Transfer, so there's all of the standard FTP protocols in place, so the file received by the player is bit for bit the same as the file sent.

Data between the NAS and the Pi isn't in any form other than TCP/IP packets. This is the common internet transport protocol responsible for the webpage in front of you and millions of other reliable information transfers done every second. As you say, this ensures that the data on the NAS arrives at the Pi exactly the same. FTP is a Transfer protocol, not a Transport protocol.

Ultimately the 'File' will need to be converted to a data stream that can be consumed by a DAC, in this case PCM (pulse code modulation, DSD is a newer format), to my mind this is where we start moving out of the IT world and into the analogue world, where interference can occur, and bits are no longer bits etc. The process of converting a 'File' to a PCM stream is transcoding.

The process of converting one encoded data set to another is transcoding. PCM will be derived from the file by the codec built into the Pi and fed into the DAC. This is demodulation. Files are simply containers for various types of data - A/V file containers can contain data in several diffeerent types which is decided by the codec used at encoding time. This is important to know because when transcoding, the final file type will depend upon the new data set. For example, if you convert a FLAC @ 24/192 to 16/44.1, you can either choose to make the new file a FLAC or a WAV. File type is much less important that then actual encoding used within the file container. Video files are MUCH more complicated again :)

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end, I choose to transcode at the Pi end, firstly for network efficiency (I'm only transmitting a small FLAC file not a 2 * 1411 Khz PCM stream), and secondly I want to decouple my player from the NAS, all it does is send the unpolluted FLAC file.

This is essentially correct, the file could be transcoded at the NAS end into a WAV file (which is a file container for PCM) and sent to the Pi over the network for demodulation, or as you have it set up which is indeed more efficient.

It's an interesting thread, but it should be pointed out that improving power supplies to a NAS can only improve the sound by reducing mains noise that affects the analogue components of an audio system. The NAS operates in the digital domain which is agnostic to noise of this sort unless it's so bad that the system will simply just not work anymore. There is no gradual downgrade of a digital network signal - it works right up until the point at which error correction cannot cope and then it stops functioning. It should be remembered that the inside of your PC (or any digital device) is rife with RF noise and it doesn't stop you from logging on the AoS. Error correction within TCP/IP works all the time, it's effects are not felt in the time domain because TCP/IP is a buffered protocol. If anyone tells you that they are getting jitter from their NAS, you are safe to laugh at them. Jitter only occurs in streaming protocols like S/PDIF which are clock locked.

Cheers for the clarification...so that's that theory blown ;)

Marco

13-04-2017, 15:13

Hi Marco, I'll try...

Whilst the data being transmitted is in 'File' format, eg the compressed FLAC file, or the WAV file etc. we are still in the realms of IT, I.E. a reliable File Transfer(TCP/IP), so there's all of the standard FTP protocols in place, so the file received by the player is bit for bit the same as the file sent.

Ultimately the 'File' will need to be converted to a data stream that can be consumed by a DAC, in this case PCM (pulse code modulation, DSD is a newer format), to my mind this is where we start moving out of the IT world and into the analogue world, where interference can occur, and bits are no longer bits etc. The process of converting a 'File' to a PCM stream is transcoding.

With LMS (logitech media server) running on my NAS, I can choose whether to transcode to PCM at the Server running on the NAS, or at the player/Pi end, I choose to transcode at the Pi end, firstly for network efficiency (I'm only transmitting a small FLAC file not a 2 * 1411 Khz PCM stream), and secondly I want to decouple my player from the NAS, all it does is send the unpolluted FLAC file.

In the earlier days of Squeezebox, when the players were a much lower spec than a Pi, some people preferred to Transcode to PCM at the server in order to take the load off the puny player (the CPU on the early SBs is a fraction of the Pi's power)...and felt they gained an improvement, hence this option exists in LMS.

Perfectly explained, Will. I get where you're coming from now (mostly)! :)

EDIT: I've had a quick look at the moode installation instructions, and it would suggest that it's a stand alone player, that can refer to the NAS, so I'm even more confused!!! :scratch::scratch:

Don't know what you mean by the bit in bold, sorry... In terms of the wider issue, doesn't what Paul Hynes outlined earlier help explain where the sonic benefits are coming from?

Marco.

WAD62

13-04-2017, 15:22

Don't know what you mean by the bit in bold, sorry... In terms of the wider issue, doesn't what Paul Hynes outlined earlier help explain where the sonic benefits are coming from?

Marco.

In that the moode player is directly referencing the NAS files, rather than it having a server portion, i.e. it's stand alone

I think smegger's post hes somewhat undermined the PCM theory...in that it's still transmitted as a .WAV file

Is your NAS/psu near your HiFi/Pi?

Marco

13-04-2017, 15:30

Hi Paul,

I am not sure there is anything that you could do to help with getting things done up here, but I am all ears if you have any ideas.

I meant any help with promoting and/or assisting in any way, through AoS, in the future development and success of Paul Hynes Audio Ltd. You know I really rate your products (and you), so IMO the good guys in the industry always deserve to be supported as much as possible :)

Not really extravagant as I have been providing SR7 and SR7MR (Multirail) power supplies for powering audio and video servers for years. They are used for both the server and the peripheral digital signal storage and processing items with considerable improvement in sound and video quality. The improvements are very similar to those you found with the SL1200 and Raspberry Pi power supplies.

Interesting... I didn't know you produced PSUs for servers, video or otherwise, and don't doubt that they improve performance considerably.

Essentially they remove a major cause of “digititis” and provide a robust musically engaging and dynamic three-dimensional presentation to music program.

A removal of "digititis": that's *exactly* what the PSU Duncan built me did, along with the rest of what you describe - and that's what I meant by the RPi now reproducing music with greater 'ease', and sounding more 'analogue' for it, for want of a better description.

I sense there will be some exceptional culinary work later this year at Marco Towers. Enjoy the moment.

Yup, we can't wait to have our first dinner party, to 'Christen' it! Shame you're so far away... :cool:

Marco.

Marco

13-04-2017, 15:37

In that the moode player is directly referencing the NAS files, rather than it having a server portion, i.e. it's stand alone

I think smegger's post hes somewhat undermined the PCM theory...in that it's still transmitted as a .WAV file

Is your NAS/psu near your HiFi/Pi?

No, it's at the other end of the room (although it isn't a very big room), hence wirelessly streaming the music, to save the use of a longish (ugly) ethernet cable, going from the router to the Pi.

The Pi itself is right next to the back of my amp, separated by a pair of (very short) 0.3m interconnects.

Marco.

WAD62

13-04-2017, 15:47

No, it's at the other end of the room (although it isn't a very big room), hence wirelessly streaming the music, to save the use of a longish (ugly) ethernet cable, going from the router to the Pi.

Marco.

Could it be simply mains/rf pollution then? Now we're in your area...;)

Mine's at the far end of the house on a different floor...

Marco

13-04-2017, 15:52

Could it be simply mains/rf pollution then? Now we're in your area...;)

Possibly, but I still feel that there's something more fundamental going on, out with of that.

Marco.

WESTLOWER

13-04-2017, 16:09

my head hurts!

Possibly, but I still feel that there's something more fundamental going on, out with of that.

Marco.

Marco

13-04-2017, 16:50

Lol - worry not and just try it! ;)

Marco.

Smegger68

13-04-2017, 17:39

It's also probably worth mentioning that the Raspberry Pi (great though it is) isn't the last word in computer audio. It wasn't designed as an audio device and is fairly noisy because of the limitations forced on it's power rails by being a 4-layer PCB of such a small footprint. The best application for the Pi is as an optical digital output into an offboard DAC, this effectively bipasses it's inherent noice issues. It is susceptible to mains borne noise because of these design choices and this is why devices like the iFi PSU work so well on it. I'm quite ready to believe that Marco's new PSU helps his sound by eliminating noisy switch mode PSU's elsewhere on his mains spur because of this.

Marco

13-04-2017, 18:02

Hi James,

It's also probably worth mentioning that the Raspberry Pi (great though it is) isn't the last word in computer audio. It wasn't designed as an audio device and is fairly noisy because of the limitations forced on it's power rails by being a 4-layer PCB of such a small footprint.

Interesting... I can't dispute your technical points, which I'm sure are valid, however I've heard quite a few expensive, so-called 'high-end' computer audio set-ups, and the RPi, in conjunction with the excellent IQ-Audio DAC, (once you feed it with a high-quality linear PSU), betters all those, at considerable less cost, and that's especially so now I've added another linear PSU to my NAS drives.

Like I said earlier, I also own (if you check my signature) a top-notch vintage Sony CDP and DAC, which has been extensively modified with the best modern components (£4k's worth in total) - and the RPi is now pushing that all the way, in terms of sonic and musical ability... I kid you not!

You should venture up to North Wales for a listen sometime, as I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at just how good the RPi here sounds :cool:

The best application for the Pi is as an optical digital output into an offboard DAC, this effectively bipasses it's inherent noice issues.

That's something I will be investigating shortly, by buying a second RPi and digi-board, and then using it with my Sony DAC. I have no doubt, as indeed you suggest, that the results will be excellent.

It is susceptible to mains borne noise because of these design choices and this is why devices like the iFi PSU work so well on it. I'm quite ready to believe that Marco's new PSU helps his sound by eliminating noisy switch mode PSU's elsewhere on his mains spur because of this.

Yup, and that was the primary reason for adding a linear PSU to the NAS drives, as I was almost certain that what you've just said would prove to be the case - and it did! :)

Marco.

WAD62

13-04-2017, 18:47

The best application for the Pi is as an optical digital output into an offboard DAC, this effectively bipasses it's inherent noice issues. It is susceptible to mains borne noise because of these design choices and this is why devices like the iFi PSU work so well on it.
The best I've heard from a pi is the hifiberry digi + pro, isolated coax, iFi psu, into an external DAC, agreed that isolation of the pi from the DAC is very important...

Marco

13-04-2017, 19:06

....yet not in my circumstances, where the partnering IQ Audio DAC is virtually hard-wired to it! ;)

Marco.

Smegger68

13-04-2017, 19:20

....yet not in my circumstances, where the partnering IQ Audio DAC is virtually hard-wired to it! ;)

Marco.

They are very well designed because they are not a 'one size fits all' solution. They have been tailored to a very large degree to the Pi.

I have a Pi and a HiFi Berry Digi+ ready to be assembled here in a few weeks. Having a major revamp of my media centre :)

WAD62

13-04-2017, 19:38

....yet not in my circumstances, where the partnering IQ Audio DAC is virtually hard-wired to it! ;)

Marco.

You should try one of the Audiophonics boards too, I marginally prefer the V2 to my IQaudio one, although both are superb...;)

Marco

13-04-2017, 19:42

They are very well designed because they are not a 'one size fits all' solution. They have been tailored to a very large degree to the Pi.

Yup, all I know is it works - and works extremely well :)

I have a Pi and a HiFi Berry Digi+ ready to be assembled here in a few weeks. Having a major revamp of my media centre :)

Cool - enjoy! :cool:

Marco.

Marco

13-04-2017, 19:47

You should try one of the Audiophonics boards too, I marginally prefer the V2 to my IQaudio one, although both are superb...;)

Noted, Will. However, these days I'd rather spend my time listening to music than continually tweaking, as it's easy to get too anal about it. Therefore, unless I can think of a good reason to fiddle, and motivate myself sufficiently to do so, I tend to simply find something that works, and then just enjoy it :)

Marco.

WAD62

13-04-2017, 20:19

Noted, Will. However, these days I'd rather spend my time listening to music than continually tweaking, as it's easy to get too anal about it. Therefore, unless I can think of a good reason to fiddle, and motivate myself sufficiently to do so, I tend to simply find something that works, and then just enjoy it :)

Marco.

Absolutely...but if you're 'self sufficient' in this area it can become quite addictive, especially if you have 4 networked systems...;)

Marco

13-04-2017, 20:33

Yup, I get that. I'd rather dick around with my turntable and arms and cartridges, as computers (and indulging in computer technology) for me is about as 'exciting' as having a dose of the crabs! :eyebrows:;)

I've only dabbled in computer audio because I enjoy having access to many thousands of albums, at the touch of a mouse, and (thankfully after years of shunning it and considering it inferior to CD at its best) I've now found a way to embrace it that, for me, produces sonically acceptable results.

Plus, I'm lucky to have a friend that enjoys it, and who is deeply 'into' the whole file-based music thing, very technically and computer literate, and on hand to help me with any problems if I need him!

Marco.

TheFlash

14-04-2017, 07:40

Smegger68 said: I'm quite ready to believe that Marco's new PSU helps his sound by eliminating noisy switch mode PSU's elsewhere on his mains spur because of this

Yup, and that was the primary reason for adding a linear PSU to the NAS drives, as I was almost certain that what you've just said would prove to be the case - and it did! :)

Marco.

So exactly the same could be achieved by installing a dedicated mains radial for hifi equipment, giving every piece of hifi the same treatment i.e. protection from noise introduced by e.g. Switched PSUs (as long as there are no switched PSUs in the hifi system itself!)

My dedicated radial cost me about £500 to install Inc parts, with two runs through galvanised tubing running down the outside of the house and given a coat of black hammerite to make them blend in with nearby drainpipe... the tubing protects better than usual conduit from introduction of environmental noise en route from dedicated consumer unit to the two sets of unswitched sockets - one at the tv end of the lounge and the other at the hifi end.

If anyone wants to know more I can dig out my facts and figures - capacity of cable, make of sockets, best consumer unit for the job etc etc all arrived at with much help from members of another forum several years ago.

The Black Adder

14-04-2017, 07:56

Hi Nigel.

I would be interested in that as I'm about to do the same. Could you start a new thread about it?

Thanks :)

Marco

14-04-2017, 08:13

So exactly the same could be achieved by installing a dedicated mains radial for hifi equipment, giving every piece of hifi the same treatment i.e. protection from noise introduced by e.g. Switched PSUs (as long as there are no switched PSUs in the hifi system itself!)

No, because I'm still convinced that there's more to it than that (that the above is only ONE of the ensuing benefits), and that *somehow* the new linear PSU, attached to the Seagate drives, is also helping eliminate corruption of the music signal at router/server level.

In that respect, I'm almost certain that if I powered said hard-drives with their stock PSUs instead, plugged into a dedicated mains radial, separate from that which is supplying the main hi-fi components, the resulting sound would be overall inferior to what it is now.

When I can be arsed, I'll have to try it both ways sometime and report back, as I already have a dedicated spur installed for my main system.

Marco.

TheFlash

14-04-2017, 11:33

Hi Nigel.

I would be interested in that as I'm about to do the same. Could you start a new thread about it?

Thanks :)

Sure. Away for long weekend but if you PM me a nudge then I'll get onto it as soon as I get home. My shortcut may be to provide link to original thread on, I think, AVForums - if I can find it - as there was advice on multiple aspects which you'd find useful I'm sure.

Nigel

TheFlash

14-04-2017, 13:40

Hi Nigel.

I would be interested in that as I'm about to do the same. Could you start a new thread about it?

Thanks :)

Done. Separate thread put up for you. Have fun!

Smegger68

15-04-2017, 05:23

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 07:18

I'm still convinced that there's more to it than that (that the above is only ONE of the ensuing benefits), and that *somehow* the new linear PSU, attached to the Seagate drives, is also helping eliminate corruption of the music signal at router/server level.

That's impossible. If it were possible to corrupt TCP/IP packets, no computer network would work. There is no signal here. Just data packets. It doesn't matter if it's music, this web page or video of your dog, it all gets transmitted the same way. It's important when talking about digital systems to realise that they are inherrently different to analogue ones.An analogue signal IS the data transmitted in real time, so corruption of the analogue signal corrupts the data. Digital is carried BY the signal and enjoys error correction and intelligent transport protocols to correct for corruption ensuring the data remains intact.

This is where I am^. I did investigate and price a linear PSU for my Synology NAS (expensive due to beefiness needed if I recall correctly) having heard the difference it could make on my iRDAC, but just couldn't get my head around the digital difference it could possibly make. My NAS is in my study so not on the dedicated "clean" hifi supply - so its switched supply cannot pollute the mains supplying the hifi and there should be no audible benefit to making the change/investment.

So: my dedicated mains radial cost me around £500-550 all in. If anyone is thinking of spending this or more on a linear PSU for their NAS, they should be able to get the same sonic benefits by installing a dedicated mains for their hifi and ensuring their NAS (and any other switched PSU device) is plugged into the normal house supply. This might be a more future-proof investment, depending on whether you're more likely to move house or upgrade your NAS first!

Marco

15-04-2017, 07:25

That's impossible. If it were possible to corrupt TCP/IP packets, no computer network would work.

Yes, but I don't mean 'corrupt' in the sense you're inferring, and of course I don't have the necessary technical knowledge with computers to properly debate the matter with you, so probably best if we just agree to disagree :)

Some say it's "impossible" for audiophile mains leads to improve on standard ones, some say it's "impossible" for 'fancy plugs and sockets' to make a difference on signal cables and equipment, over standard ones, some say it's "impossible" for 'boutique capacitors or resistors' to improve on standard items, some say it's "impossible" for vinyl to reproduce music more 'accurately' (read as render it as sounding more lifelike) than digital, etc, etc - the effects/improvements of all of which I can hear as clear as day...............

Therefore, often when I'm told that something is "impossible", I simply think that perhaps it hasn't been investigated rigorously enough, in order for the *real* truth to be revealed, or the mind of the person telling me it's "impossible" is closed to accepting any view outside that of his or her academic training.

I'm just not someone that's predisposed to automatically accepting so-called 'facts', simply because 'accepted wisdom' deems them as such.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the above necessary applies to the issue we're currently discussing, simply that I'll always remain openminded to the possibility that things are not always quite as obvious, as at first they may seem ;)

Marco.

P.S Oh, as an aside, I must ask that you remove/change your signature (in red), as it could be offensive to some people (consider for example that I am a practising Catholic). This is a hi-fi and music forum, therefore such statements (or indeed similar ones of a political nature) have no place here.

Cheers! :cool:

Marco

15-04-2017, 07:50

I did investigate and price a linear PSU for my Synology NAS (expensive due to beefiness needed if I recall correctly) having heard the difference it could make on my iRDAC, but just couldn't get my head around the digital difference it could possibly make.

I also thought the same, then tried it and discovered rather differently...!

The genuinely inquisitive and openminded will always put aside what their heads think, and go with their gut instincts instead, as ultimately there is no substitute for practical experience - and furthermore if we never challenged the 'accepted norm', how would we ever discover anything new?

In my experience, audio often rewards the lateral thinkers ;)

Marco.

Macca

15-04-2017, 09:08

Speaking of lateral thinking it interests me that so many people seem to think that issues with digital replay are the result of the '0s and 1s' being corrupted, and the obsession with getting 'bit perfect' reads and so forth. Looking for a digital solution to a digital problem.

Is it not possible that although the digital signal is transmitted without issues (and it is highly unlikely that it isn't, hence why when I send a Word doc to a printer it prints off without any errors) that noise is also being transmitted? Not in the digital signal (the 0s and 1s are unaffected) but 'piggy backing' along down the wires (or if wireless, piggy backing on the broadcast signal) and causing an increase in noise floor?

Regardless of whether we can class the signal digital or analogue it still needs electricity to work, that means a power supply and that means the potential for noise. I don't think it is any accident that over the years I have found that digital sources that have had attention paid to the power supplies sound better than those that just have the minimum required to work. Reading threads such as this one this and other forums it is clear to me that I am not the only person to discover this.

Yet with digital audio there still seems to be far more attention paid to factors that should really make no difference at all to what is heard - extended bandwidth, jitter, bit perfect 'reads' and so on.

Does no-one ever join the dots?

Of course decent power supplies are expensive and hidden inside the case so perceived value to the customer is non-existent compared to the facility to play DSD or MQA or any of the other 'solutions' offered by marketing departments. Far better for the manufacture to save money there and spend it on the fancy case and promoting the hype instead because this is more likely to result in better sales and that is the bottom line for any company. You don't sell what is needed, you sell what people think they need and this is not always the same thing.

Furthermore even if they have paid attention to the power supplies and mentioned it and people do notice the improvement they are still likely to ascribe it to something other than the power supplies - the clock, the mech, the DAC chip, or some nonsense about sampling rates or 'timing'. No wonder a lot makers no longer bother with optimising the basic electrical engineering, too many audiophiles are just not interested in that side at all. It doesn't grab their imaginations.

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 16:10

I also thought the same, then tried it and discovered rather differently...!

The genuinely inquisitive and openminded will always put aside what their heads think, and go with their gut instincts instead, as ultimately there is no substitute for practical experience - and furthermore if we never challenged the 'accepted norm', how would we ever discover anything new?

In my experience, audio often rewards the lateral thinkers ;)

Marco.

You misunderstand me. I couldn't get my head around that IN MY SYSTEM where the NAS is on a separate mains radial so only packets of digital data pass from the NAS to the hifi and its dedicated mains. Cleaning up the NAS power in that situation can't possibly affect the sound unless those 0s and 1s were previously corrupted.

I think I can get my head around why a linear PSU could improve the sound IN YOUR SETUP where, unless I'm mistaken, the hifi and NAS are on the same mains circuit. There, removing a noisy switched PSU might quite conceivably make a difference because there are analogue signals to be polluted.

I hope that's clearer.

Nigel

Macca

15-04-2017, 17:07

You misunderstand me. I couldn't get my head around that IN MY SYSTEM where the NAS is on a separate mains radial so only packets of digital data pass from the NAS to the hifi and its dedicated mains. Cleaning up the NAS power in that situation can't possibly affect the sound unless those 0s and 1s were previously corrupted.

I think I can get my head around why a linear PSU could improve the sound IN YOUR SETUP where, unless I'm mistaken, the hifi and NAS are on the same mains circuit. There, removing a noisy switched PSU might quite conceivably make a difference because there are analogue signals to be polluted.

I hope that's clearer.

Nigel

Can you explain how 0s and 1s become 'corrupted' and what effect this will have on the sound? And why does power supply noise corrupt 'audio' 0s and 1s but not none-audio 0s and 1s?

Smegger68

15-04-2017, 19:22

Yes, but I don't mean 'corrupt' in the sense you're inferring, and of course I don't have the necessary technical knowledge with computers to properly debate the matter with you, so probably best if we just agree to disagree :)

What sense do you mean? You just said you don't have expertise in this area so what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Some say it's "impossible" for audiophile mains leads to improve on standard ones, some say it's "impossible" for 'fancy plugs and sockets' to make a difference on signal cables and equipment, over standard ones, some say it's "impossible" for 'boutique capacitors or resistors' to improve on standard items, some say it's "impossible" for vinyl to reproduce music more 'accurately' (read as render it as sounding more lifelike) than digital, etc, etc - the effects/improvements of all of which I can hear as clear as day

All of the things you have listed are either a matter of personal preference or things that would only affect the analogue domain. None of them would affect a digital signal unless they completely stopped it from working.

Therefore, often when I'm told that something is "impossible", I simply think that perhaps it hasn't been investigated rigorously enough, in order for the *real* truth to be revealed, or the mind of the person telling me it's "impossible" is closed to accepting any view outside that of his or her academic training.

In a closed system it is perfectly acceptable to define effects as possible or impossible. These are mutable terms though - If you wish to debunk the impossible claim, you must present evidence as to why it is no longer impossible.

I'm just not someone that's predisposed to automatically accepting so-called 'facts', simply because 'accepted wisdom' deems them as such.

They are not so-called facts. This is theory that fits the facts. Theory is open to review with the presentation of evidence.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the above necessary applies to the issue we're currently discussing, simply that I'll always remain openminded to the possibility that things are not always quite as obvious, as at first they may seem ;)

I would not disagree. Being open minded is a prerequisite of gaining new knowledge. However, at a certain point you have to agree to a concensus or you never move forward.

P.S Oh, as an aside, I must ask that you remove/change your signature (in red), as it could be offensive to some people (consider for example that I am a practising Catholic). This is a hi-fi and music forum, therefore such statements (or indeed similar ones of a political nature) have no place here.

Fair enough. Done :)

Stratmangler

15-04-2017, 20:22

Cleaning up the NAS power in that situation can't possibly affect the sound unless those 0s and 1s were previously corrupted

So how do you think those 0s and 1s are represented?

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:18

As an analogue waveform which in layman's terms gets translated back into 0s and 1s.

Stratmangler

15-04-2017, 22:21

So would it be fair to say that the analogue waveform of the digital representation is going to be affected by the same things as an analogue audio signal will be?

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:24

Can you explain how 0s and 1s become 'corrupted' and what effect this will have on the sound? And why does power supply noise corrupt 'audio' 0s and 1s but not none-audio 0s and 1s?

I don't believe they do get corrupted. That's my point.

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:29

So would it be fair to say that the analogue waveform of the digital representation is going to be affected by the same things as an analogue audio signal will be?

No, because a corrupted 0 doesn't become 90% of a 0, a slightly distorted 0, it becomes a 1. That's an unstable and non-compliant digital cable.

Smegger68

15-04-2017, 22:29

So would it be fair to say that the analogue waveform of the digital representation is going to be affected by the same things as an analogue audio signal will be?

Of course. However in the context of ethernet packets, it's completely irrelevant because of CRC error correction and transport protocol resends. Since none of this is time domain dependant it will not affect the final sound.

Smegger68

15-04-2017, 22:30

No, because a corrupted 0 doesn't become 90% of a 0, a slightly distorted 0, it becomes a 1. That's an unstable and non-compliant digital cable.

Exactly right.

Stratmangler

15-04-2017, 22:32

No, because a corrupted 0 doesn't become 90% of a 0, a slightly distorted 0, it becomes a 1. That's an unstable and non-compliant digital cable.

You just said it was an analogue signal, so it must be affected by the same parameters.

Macca

15-04-2017, 22:40

I don't believe they do get corrupted. That's my point.

I'm confused now. So who is saying they do get corrupted then? It doesn't seem at all likely.

Stratmangler

15-04-2017, 22:43

Of course. However in the context of ethernet packets, it's completely irrelevant because of CRC error correction and transport protocol resends. Since none of this is time domain dependant it will not affect the final sound.

That's what I once thought.
When you can switch between a Cat5e patch lead, and a Cat6 patch lead, and consistently hear a readily apparent difference in sound quality it starts to throw doubt on those truths.

Macca

15-04-2017, 22:49

That's what I once thought.
When you can switch between a Cat5e patch lead, and a Cat6 patch lead, and consistently hear a readily apparent difference in sound quality it starts to throw doubt on those truths.

That could be down to some factor other than that the data signal gets corrupted. That's an unlikely explanation at best. What would actually happen if that was the case is you would get drop outs in the sound.

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:56

I'm confused now. So who is saying they do get corrupted then? It doesn't seem at all likely.

No one is saying they get corrupted. I was saying they would have to get corrupted for a difference to be heard. I don't think they do so a difference won't be heard. But this is in MY system where the NAS PSU is not on the same mains circuit as my hifi; it is not a generalised statement that a linear NAS PSU can't ever make a difference.

If this doesn't make sense you need to read back through some of my and related posts. Taking things out of context can mislead.

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:57

You just said it was an analogue signal, so it must be affected by the same parameters.

No, incorrect. It is but it can't be.

TheFlash

15-04-2017, 22:58

Exactly right.

Thank you! I thought I was losing it for a moment... [emoji848]

Smegger68

16-04-2017, 01:54

That's what I once thought.
When you can switch between a Cat5e patch lead, and a Cat6 patch lead, and consistently hear a readily apparent difference in sound quality it starts to throw doubt on those truths.

In the context of ethernet packets, it doesn't make a difference. In other areas, it can. Cat 6 has a very different shielding configuration to Cat 5e in order to bring down crosstalk so that it can be used for longer runs and for higher density data. The overall signal ground of any analogue system can be affected by this, altering RF levels at the DAC. The data hasn't changed. The analogue system might however.... It's going to be very system dependant.

TheFlash

16-04-2017, 06:21

TheFlash

16-04-2017, 06:41

Last night I thought I might have found a better way of explaining why I believe a linear PSU might be making a difference in Marco's system and cautioning why we must be careful about the mains "topologies" into which we extrapolate his experiences.

Marco's NAS is on the same mains supply as his hifi. I believe that the improvements he is hearing are due to the replacement of a noisy switched PSU on his NAS by a quiet linear one and nothing to do with the digital signal being transferred from the NAS.

This experiment, carried out without expectation bias (bear with me...), should demonstrate whether I am correct. Unfortunately Marco won't be able to do it like this as it would be a waste of his hard-earned, but it's a clear illustration of the principles at play.

So our compliant subject Marco buys another identical NAS with its original switched PSU. He has it in position but not plugged into the mains; his system is as it is today. He listens to his music and loves it.
Now he plugs in the second NAS to the mains, maybe in the socket next to the one the linear PSU is plugged into. He powers up the second NAS using the original switched PSU from NAS 1 (to eliminate another variable as this could have been an unusually noisy one) but note that this second NAS is not connected to anything other than the mains supply and is not transmitting data to anything.
I believe this will make Marco's system sound as it did before his linear PSU upgrade. The noise of the switched PSU is back in the system. I believe the second NAS is required so that current is drawn by the switched PSU but someone might correct me here.

The clear distinction which I'm trying to draw here is between the noise in the mains - which affects genuinely analogue signals and therefore sound quality - and the "digital" signal being transmitted in analogue form from the NAS. The two are not connected. Many of the posts here lose the connection with the context of Marco's system, and the arguments made as a result are invalid extrapolations to the general case.

Somebody please tell me this helps?

Nigel

Marco

16-04-2017, 07:00

Hi James,

What sense do you mean? You just said you don't have expertise in this area so what exactly is the point you are trying to make?

Lol - nothing more than my instincts are telling me that something else (at source level), with my streaming set-up, is causing the improvements I've heard with the new PSU, which is completely separate from removing noise from the mains supply. And my instincts are often right.

No point in debating the matter though, as at the moment I can't offer any proper theories for the cause.

All of the things you have listed are either a matter of personal preference or things that would only affect the analogue domain. None of them would affect a digital signal unless they completely stopped it from working.

Yes, I know. I was simply making a general point about when some say things are "impossible".

It's often only considered as such, within the realms of THEIR current understanding, or what 'science says' - and perhaps not *actually* impossible at all. Quite simply, I never accept that anything is "impossible" in hi-fi (or indeed in many other matters) unless MY own judgement criteria indicates it as such.

In a closed system it is perfectly acceptable to define effects as possible or impossible. These are mutable terms though - If you wish to debunk the impossible claim, you must present evidence as to why it is no longer impossible.

Indeed so, but I'm not trying to "debunk" anything; merely expressing some thoughts openly for others to consider or dismiss as they wish.

Being open minded is a prerequisite of gaining new knowledge. However, at a certain point you have to agree to a concensus or you never move forward.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that the consensus is *actually* right.

Fair enough. Done :)

Cheers :thumbsup:

Anyway, returning to the subject in hand, it's good that different observations are being offered and debated, as that's how we learn.

However, until I get the chance to perform the test I outlined earlier (in relation to plugging the stock PSUs for the NAS into a separate mains radial from the rest of the system and comparing results there with the current set up), I'm happy to hold the view that something else is responsible for the sonic improvements I'm hearing, other than simply removing noise from the mains.

Won't be around much today, as it's Easter Sunday, the weather is gorgeous, and we're going out to a lovely country pub for lunch, with probably some hill walking afterwards! Laters muchachos :cool:

Marco.

TheFlash

16-04-2017, 07:50

However, until I get the chance to perform the test I outlined earlier (in relation to plugging the stock PSUs for the NAS into a separate mains radial from the rest of the system and comparing results there with the current set up), I'm happy to hold the view that something else is responsible for the sonic improvements I'm hearing, other than simply removing noise from the mains.

Now if only you'd said "I'm happy to entertain the possibility that" rather than "I'm happy to hold the view that", we'd actually be close to agreeing! [emoji106][emoji4]

Macca

16-04-2017, 09:02

Some good stuff in this long post but also some poor stuff, like the paragraph starting "regardless of whether...". I will post separately to clarify what I think is happening in Marco's system which I believe might well make a real audible difference.

You don't agree that better power supplies equals better sound?

Your explanation is that the SMPS adds noise to the mains so removing it will improve the sound, but I can't agree that the difference Marco says the power supply has made seems to be above and beyond any effect unplugging SMPS from the mains has. I only have 1 SMPS in the house, that powers the cable box, unplugging it makes no difference I can hear and there are no dedicated rings, all on the same one.

Marco

16-04-2017, 09:42

Now if only you'd said "I'm happy to entertain the possibility that" rather than "I'm happy to hold the view that", we'd actually be close to agreeing! [emoji106][emoji4]

Sure, I'm cool with that :cool:

Marco.

Stratmangler

16-04-2017, 10:28

Cat 6 has a very different shielding configuration to Cat 5e

Really?
The last time I terminated Cat5e or Cat6 there was no shield.

TheFlash

16-04-2017, 11:02

You don't agree that better power supplies equals better sound?

Your explanation is that the SMPS adds noise to the mains so removing it will improve the sound, but I can't agree that the difference Marco says the power supply has made seems to be above and beyond any effect unplugging SMPS from the mains has. I only have 1 SMPS in the house, that powers the cable box, unplugging it makes no difference I can hear and there are no dedicated rings, all on the same one.

Correct. I don't believe that better power supplies equals better sound. I believe that better power supplies can equal better sound. That "can" is critical. In some devices on some systems in some mains power topologies... but to extrapolate from, say, Marco's experience to a general rule would be madness, as it would be to extrapolate from mine or yours.

Macca

16-04-2017, 13:14

Fair enough.

WESTLOWER

16-04-2017, 14:42

The default setting for FLAC on LMS is 'Native' (so will send the FLAC as is), it's in the advanced settings/file types/ section...

Sorry Will for being a bit thick! Do I leave it as Native or disable that setting on LMS? And then do I have to
Enable PCM on the picore player?

TheFlash

16-04-2017, 16:51

Fair enough.

Thanks Macca!

Stratmangler

16-04-2017, 18:38

Sorry Will for being a bit thick! Do I leave it as Native or disable that setting on LMS? And then do I have to
Enable PCM on the picore player?

Just leave it as it is on default (Native).
PiCorePlayer handles both file types natively.

TheFlash

19-04-2017, 07:16

Marco

19-04-2017, 08:54

TheFlash

19-04-2017, 12:14

Hi Nigel,

You obviously have the price for parts, but if you'd like to ask Duncan to build you a PSU, you'll need to get a quote from him for labour, as I'm not at liberty to state what I paid. Pop him a PM and I'm sure he'll respond soon.

Your other question will also no doubt be answered in the same PM. Good luck :cool:

Marco.

Will do. Thanks. I was hoping to be able to share with others who might want to try "it" what "it" might cost, but I respect the commercial confidentiality.

Marco

19-04-2017, 19:50

It's simply a matter of whether or not Duncan wants to build more PSUs, as he doesn't do this sort of thing for a living, and if he's willing to produce more, how much he wants to charge, which is why it's best to speak with him directly :)

Marco.

TheFlash

19-04-2017, 21:42

I messaged him this afternoon.

TheFlash

20-04-2017, 07:09

Duncan will not be building any more PSUs.

He has suggested I will get no benefit if my NAS is on a separate mains like his is.

I will leave this I think.

Yomanze

21-04-2017, 14:19

Duncan will not be building any more PSUs.

He has suggested I will get no benefit if my NAS is on a separate mains like his is.

I will leave this I think.
Another option is to get your noisy gubbins like router and NAS onto its own Tacima filtered mains block, which is what I do.

Marco

21-04-2017, 14:29

Duncan will not be building any more PSUs.

He has suggested I will get no benefit if my NAS is on a separate mains like his is.

I will leave this I think.

Actually, that's not quite what he said, in the sense that the above represents his conclusive statement on the matter. Not at all. You've simply worded it that way to appease your 'scientific sensibilities', and not suffer the discomfort of having your own (rather blinkered) conclusions called into question.

Duncan's a good friend of mine, so I know him very well. He hasn't had the chance yet to analyse the sonic effect of the linear PSU in my system, so he'll no doubt reserve final judgement until then on its efficacy (or otherwise) in respect of the claims I've made here, when he listens for himself, which no doubt will happen soon.

Happy days! :)

Marco.