What Kind of Speakers are Best?

[alphaGT]

Since we've had so much talk about analog vs digital, and the usual cable talk, here's a question of philosophy! What kind of speakers do you think are best, and why?

When I say what kind, I'm not speaking about brand, too many brands to contemplate. I'm speaking of design, such as folded horns? Box speakers, both Floor Standers and Bookshelf. And Electrostatics? Are there any other design principles I've forgotten?

These differences in speaker choices make more difference in the way a system sounds than most any other choice. More than cables, more than CD or vinyl, the difference in Sound between a folded horn and an Electrostatic are major.

Personally, I own large floorstanding box type speakers, I like the visceral impact and slam they offer, and trueness of timber. But! Having said that, the most realistic, musicians in the same room with you, sound I've ever heard was from electrostatics. I could not believe how far I could hear into the music, the depth was so real. I could tell the singer was 5 feet in front of the drummer, I could see the bass player standing 6 feet to her left, and a guitar 4 feet to her right. The system driving it had everything to do with it, but still, Electrostatics produced the most lifelike playback I've ever heard.

But I've heard some very entertaining horns before too! Strings in particular were very real, and everything sounded very large, but they were also very telling of weaknesses upstream.

I feel this is a very personal thing. This choice controls the overall sound of our systems, this choice says a lot about our personal philosophies concerning hi-fi. And it has a major influence on the amplification we choose to power them with.

So? What's your preference and why?


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[walpurgis]

You've opened a proper 'can of worms' there.

Everybody has their own favourite type of speaker. There is no 'best', just choices. I like electrostatics, heard many and owned Quads. I like decent transmission line speakers and some horns as well. I've tried many types and makes, but inevitably revert to using proper Tannoy dual concentrics. Have done for over forty years. I am also having fun with a small pair of classic KEFs at the moment though, they are extremely good.

[struth]

Fullrange single driver in reflex box, no xover for me.

[Macca]

Electrostatics do some things the best but not the lower frequencies, they are accurate but lack a bit of 'slam'. Not heard any monster examples though so maybe they can do that too, don't know. Sorted QUAD ESLs are about 90% perfect, the missing 10% puts me off though.

Horns, folded or otherwise, bit too coloured and everything is too 'big' - multi way horns like Speedy Steves work well, but into the realms of crazy extreme DIY

Omni and semi-Omni can't really get on with, their presentation is too different for me

Transmission lines - proper ones not tiny little standmounts pretending - trade off between bass power and bass accuracy, sounds like a real bass is playing but at the same time you can't 'see' the bass player's fingers on the frets - if there is a TL that can do this not heard it.

Open Baffles - almost like electrostatics, unlike them they do have the slam but don't get the low bass right enough for me. I prefer box bass, sounds more like what I expect bass to sound like.

And the speaker must be big. Not interested in any speaker that cannot do effortless scale of sound.

2 way and 2 and a half way are too compromised. One driver trying to do the lot, improve the bass the mid suffers, improve the mid, bass suffers.

So big, true 3 way speakers are my favourites. Exception being the JBL '4' series - big bass driver matched with a horn loaded compression driver, no crossover in the critical area, the likes of the 4365 just embarrass other high end speakers they are so clean and effortless. Big Tannoy DC I like for the same reason but the JBL method has the edge for me.

[hifi_dave]

They all have good and bad points so it's not possible to give a definitive answer. It's like asking "which is the best food ?" No answer.

[Macca]

You can say what your own favourite food is though.

[Arkless Electronics]

I pretty much agree with Macca on the Quad ELS speakers... probably the best I've ever heard.... so long as you don't want it really loud and don't mind holding your head very still in a +/- 2" listening position that is!

I'd like to experiment with open baffle speakers after being very impressed indeed with some Linkwitz ones that someone brought along to a NEBO (sorry can't remember blokes name). They made every other speaker I heard that day sound like a toy! I would make them as 3 or 4 way active using analogue crossovers. A large round tuit needed plus lots of money for that though!

Another possible speaker project on the cheap is to finish making my Mission 770's active.... I tried this 20 odd years ago but it was a dismal failure. I now know, or at least have a very good idea, why they were so bad, and how to do it properly, so it would be a very interesting project to re-visit:)

[hifinutt]

I like hybrid electrostatics with a subwoofer integrated with a panel . like martin logan . takes a lot to beat them

using a 2 box speaker currently which is excellent . very satisfying even if not quite the bass and slam of logans . still got lovely vocals and sweet upper and mids

heard some lovely horns too and maybe one day will try

[petrat]

You call those speakers?

These are speakers .... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-wall-of-sound

Now, those are proper JBLs, Martin :D

[Macca]

You call those speakers?

These are speakers .... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-wall-of-sound

Now, those are proper JBLs, Martin :D

Yep must have packed a bit of a punch. But if I set that lot up in the living room I wouldn't be able to get into the kitchen. You can see the bind I'm in.

[Macca]

I pretty much agree with Macca on the Quad ELS speakers... probably the best I've ever heard.... so long as you don't want it really loud and don't mind holding your head very still in a +/- 2" listening position that is!

I'd like to experiment with open baffle speakers after being very impressed indeed with some Linkwitz ones that someone brought along to a NEBO (sorry can't remember blokes name). They made every other speaker I heard that day sound like a toy!

That was Gordon's (Halfway Tree) system. It was astonishing, I agree.

[Dynamics]

I'd say speakers with a simple design, with single bass drivers and tweeters work best over multiple drivers and timing issues.

Also transmission line unsurprisingly being a pmc fan, but I think 3 way designs like atc scm40 are fantastic too.

Speakers which produce huge amounts of bass and can't really cope with it and simpler designs are easier to get dynamics and detail right with a bit of compromise over bass depth. But who wants bass of a concert hall in their living room anyway for most normal listening. It's tiresome.

[Yomanze]

It depends on the room to a large degree. In a suspended wooden floor two up two down terrace standmounts are great including in extension, but in a bigger room they can sound a bit drowned out.

[Firebottle]

'Air' mounted electrostatics with a good sub = bliss. Sweet spot seems wider when suspended which is a good thing.

Just listening (loudly) to Willy Nelson - Countryman, check it out.

:)

[User211]

I lived with Martin Logan's for about 17 years. But I always wanted some planar magnetic speakers after hearing the Analysis Omega in the mid 90s.

I had some Apogee's restored and realised pretty quickly they were quite a bit better than Logan's.

So I got an even better pair of Apogees made with new frames and custom aluminium bracing a long with a whole host of other upgrades.

That took freakin' ages, masses of telephone calls and 400-500 emails.

Very good speakers. Not perfect, but in many areas they perform extremely well. Well enough to walk around Munich and realised they better many far more expensive designs.

The addiction quality for me is in the bass panels. Once you hear how they do bass, you realise there's virtually nothing out there that articulates bass better.

The detail retrieval in the mid and treble exceeds anything an electrostatic can do. It can be a bit overwhelming and during the course of making crossover and ribbon changes, I have heard detail come from them that simply beggars belief. Literally too much resolution.

I'm still messing with the crossovers using XSim and some guesswork. What you simulate isn't what you get for various reasons so perseverance is necessary.

They are curious things indeed. Perplexing to listen to. Quite an intense experience primarily due to being bombarded with information at at level you don't find elsewhere.

They don't flatter bad recordings. If you can't live with that stay well clear.

[Audio Al]

Impulse H6's are pretty amazing :eyebrows:

and JBL L1s

And Ram 400

And 63 stats

And 57 Stats

and ...........

[spendorman]

Bass was fairy good from my stacked B&W DM2's, four per channel.

[walpurgis]

Bass was fairy good from my stacked B&W DM2's, four per channel.

That's just greedy! :)

[spendorman]

That's just greedy! :)

Suppose it was, gave two pairs away.

[walpurgis]

I did use stacked Tannoy Eatons at one stage, but only two per side. Sounded rather good.

[Beobloke]

If I compile my all-time speaker top 10, then positions 1, 2 and 3 are occupied by large active loudspeakers with at least 4 drive units, a minimum of 750W of amplification and some sort of room correction/DSP facility.

Sadly I can't afford any of 'em... :(

[alphaGT]

You call those speakers?

These are speakers .... https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/the-wall-of-sound

Now, those are proper JBLs, Martin :D

I saw Judas Priest back in '79, and the speakers were from all to wall and all the way against the ceiling of the colosseum! I told my friend I thought most were fake, just for looks. But once the show started I was sure they were all real! I thought the house was going to come down on our heads! Especially when he stuck the mic in the tailpipe of his Harley.


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[alphaGT]

I've heard some Klispchhorn speakers that were amazing. For horns, yes they were colored I guess, but seemed so clear and bright. They seemed to shine much more on acoustic music, a solo acoustic guitar, or piano concert. Rock music was too busy, congested maybe? But at times it was very real, female vocals were to die for. But, expensive and huge! Massive. And very telling of upstream gear. Any shortcomings would stick out like a sore thumb. But, I've heard smaller horns that were not so hard to live with. And were great ways to show off the beautiful flavor of a small tubed amp, seeing they are so sensitive.

The speakers I heard that were the best ever were Martin Logans. So they did have the built in bass dynamic woofer. But the gear driving them was beyond reproach. Giant Krell monoblocks, a Klyne preamp! It cost $5 grand Back in 1987! Driven by the Sony 608ES i was buying. The salesman had to run me off after about 6 hours. Wow I wanted those speakers! But was a poor man back then. I think I'll start shopping for some now.

But, as Neil was saying, the room is critical. You can't put KlispchHorns in a closet. And many great sounding speakers need room, they need 4 feet of space on all sides before they ever start to open up.

The first "Good" speakers I ever owned were Vandersteen 2c with the stands. They are surprisingly good for their price and size. 4 way speakers with each driver in its own box, a good solid crossover, it did many things well and was easy to live with for over 25 years. I've considered buying some Vandersteen 3's or 5's.

These Legacy Focus speakers I have now are very nice, and do so many things well. They are huge 4 way box speakers, very good selection of drivers, top notch x-over. I think they could sound much better if I had room to move them. I just cannot pull them 6 feet into the room, I have to deal with furniture placement, in a 16x20 foot room. I do enjoy the way they sound. They've got dynamics. They've got slam, they do vocals well, I can hear all the instruments and bass and drums are excellent. But, I've got to wonder what a pair of Martin Logans would sound like in here? Or Vandersteen 3's? Too bad I can't just borrow them and have strong men come and set them up for me! To live with for a month before making up my mind.


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[Macca]

These Legacy Focus speakers I have now are very nice, and do so many things well. .




I'm not surprised. Just looked them up, holey moley! Twin 12 inch bass drivers, AMT tweeters. In volume my room is about the same as yours (29'x12') and I have pondered whether I actually need a bigger speaker than the JM labs with their rinky-dink little twin 7 inch bass drivers. Just a guess but I reckon big electrostatics would just be different, not better. Of course if it is a difference you prefer...

Re having 4 feet clear on all sides of the speaker, lucky man who has the room to do that. I would think passive room treatment could go some way to creating that effect, though, not dabbled in that area myself yet so guessing.

[alphaGT]

I'm not surprised. Just looked them up, holey moley! Twin 12 inch bass drivers, AMT tweeters. In volume my room is about the same as yours (29'x12') and I have pondered whether I actually need a bigger speaker than the JM labs with their rinky-dink little twin 7 inch bass drivers. Just a guess but I reckon big electrostatics would just be different, not better. Of course if it is a difference you prefer...

Re having 4 feet clear on all sides of the speaker, lucky man who has the room to do that. I would think passive room treatment could go some way to creating that effect, though, not dabbled in that area myself yet so guessing.

Yes these guys have the bass! It was hard to squeeze out of them until I got the Krell. Then I had to move them 2 feet farther into the room to tame the bass a bit. It has a 12 inch radiator on the back, with two 3 inch ports as well. So a lot of bass coming from the rear. The highs are as smooth as they could be, surprisingly easy treble. The D'Appolito arrangement at the top gives some fair imaging if you get in the sweet spot. But speaker placement is tricky, you need to get back a ways to get it just right, probably farther than I am able to get. But what they do best is they can rock! If you apply the juice these babies can rock the house big time! Real live concert bass right in the house, without being harsh at all! In fact, since I've had the Krell, I find myself listening at lower volume levels. It has satisfying bass at tiny volumes, so, it does many things right. Bass guitar, kick drum, and synthesizer are suddenly there! Bass synth can be surprisingly present at times. But, it's not dark or boomy, bass is tight and overall frequencies are balanced. These are real, "full range" speakers.

What I cannot get them to do is give that 3D in the room realism. That spooky I thought I heard that guitar in the room feeling. The Electrostatics can do this, at least the ones I heard were doing it with ease! But that is one of the pitfalls of buying all used gear, you can't go hear it, or hear it in your system before you buy. You've got to depend on reviews and advice from fellow 'philes, and some theory and faith. I'd love to hear a pair of the Tannoy's in here! And some Martin Logans, or even Magnapan's, or perhaps some of those nice B&W Nautilus speakers that are so popular. When I win the lotto I'll let you all know how they all sound!




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[Firebottle]

Maggies are good, without a doubt, but you do need an amp that drives 4 ohms well. :)

[Pharos]

Interesting User211. I heard the Scintillas in about '90, impressive apart from the need to have the head controlled to within a few mms to get the top.

Which actives Beobloke, Nautilus snails by any chance?

[walpurgis]

Interesting User211. I heard the Scintillas in about '90, impressive apart from the need to have the head controlled to within a few mms to get the top.

I've heard them on occasion years back. I don't recall a top directivity issue though. I did think they sounded about as good as any speaker I'd ever heard.

[jandl100]

Lots of ways to move air.

Most technologies can work well.

For cones and domes in boxes it's all down to the implementation, imo. Many I wouldn't take on a dare, but some have really worked well for me. I'm not aware of anything particularly special about the design or materials, but Leema Xaviers were probably the best 'traditional' speakers I have owned. A moderate sized 3-way, they just sounded right and also ticked my 'audiophile boxes' like neutrality, rez, focus and dynamic tracking. Some JBL L110 vintage boxes were also great.

For the ultimate rez (and slam) Justin's (user211) Apogee-based Interstalla ribbon speakers driven by his Accuphase mono amps are jaw dropping. I'm quite a high rez kind of listener but these were just a bit too much for me! Great fun to visit, but I'm not at all sure I could live with them. TMI.

Electrostatics - I never could get on with hybrids but I have enjoyed some full rangers, most notably Martin Logan CLS2z, and Quad 57 can be great, too (but there are some really drab sounding ones around as well, probably in need of a refurb). Both really need a sub for full range music (electronic or orchestral), and that's a real can o' worms that I never got close to properly sorting.

Horns - usually too coloured for my tastes. They can shift air very impressively, though, and can have fantastic resolution. I had a pair of Avantgarde horn hybrids for quite a few years and they worked well with minimal horn colouration, so it can be done.

I've settled on flexing carbon fibre petals integrated with a cone bass cabinet for the last 7 years, and couldn't be happier.

Loudspeakers are all idiosyncratic and very subject to personal taste, and it seems to me that the more expensive they get the increasingly different they sound from each other! Which is an interesting observation in itself.

[Firebottle]

..... it seems to me that the more expensive they get the increasingly different they sound from each other! Which is an interesting observation in itself.

Indeed Jerry, you would have thought that if money is being spent to achieve 'better' reproduction then the opposite should be the case.
:)

[walpurgis]

Horns - usually too coloured for my tastes. They can shift air very impressively, though, and can have fantastic resolution. I had a pair of Avantgarde horn hybrids for quite a few years and they worked well with minimal horn colouration, so it can be done.

Love the Avantgarde Trios. Heard them a few times and really like the way they make music!

[alphaGT]

Lots of ways to move air.

Most technologies can work well.

For cones and domes in boxes it's all down to the implementation, imo. Many I wouldn't take on a dare, but some have really worked well for me. I'm not aware of anything particularly special about the design or materials, but Leema Xaviers were probably the best 'traditional' speakers I have owned. A moderate sized 3-way, they just sounded right and also ticked my 'audiophile boxes' like neutrality, rez, focus and dynamic tracking. Some JBL L110 vintage boxes were also great.

For the ultimate rez (and slam) Justin's (user211) Apogee-based Interstalla ribbon speakers driven by his Accuphase mono amps are jaw dropping. I'm quite a high rez kind of listener but these were just a bit too much for me! Great fun to visit, but I'm not at all sure I could live with them. TMI.

Electrostatics - I never could get on with hybrids but I have enjoyed some full rangers, most notably Martin Logan CLS2z, and Quad 57 can be great, too (but there are some really drab sounding ones around as well, probably in need of a refurb). Both really need a sub for full range music (electronic or orchestral), and that's a real can o' worms that I never got close to properly sorting.

Horns - usually too coloured for my tastes. They can shift air very impressively, though, and can have fantastic resolution. I had a pair of Avantgarde horn hybrids for quite a few years and they worked well with minimal horn colouration, so it can be done.

I've settled on flexing carbon fibre petals integrated with a cone bass cabinet for the last 7 years, and couldn't be happier.

Loudspeakers are all idiosyncratic and very subject to personal taste, and it seems to me that the more expensive they get the increasingly different they sound from each other! Which is an interesting observation in itself.

A very good summation. And the last part, about being subjective to personal tastes, is kind of the point I have been trying to make. And I hadn't really thought about it but you are right, about the more expensive, the greater the differences. But then again. You can take a 12 foot grand piano, and drag it to all the concert halls around the world, and it will sound very different in each and every one. So the absolute sound is completely subjective.


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[Macca]

A very good summation. And the last part, about being subjective to personal tastes, is kind of the point I have been trying to make. And I hadn't really thought about it but you are right, about the more expensive, the greater the differences. But then again. You can take a 12 foot grand piano, and drag it to all the concert halls around the world, and it will sound very different in each and every one. So the absolute sound is completely subjective.



Agree. Regardless of the design loudspeakers are a very imperfect way to create standing waves in air. You can get the amp or source to near perfection given enough money and knowledge but the speaker is always a crapshoot and that is before you put it into various different rooms and see it interact with them.

But it is like saying that your car would go a lot faster if it wasn't for all the friction from the tyre/road interface. We don't have an alternative to wheels just as we don't have an alternative to loudspeakers. (Headphones are just tiny loudspeakers btw before someone mentions them).

So just accept and choose your poison. :)

[walpurgis]

Regardless of the design loudspeakers are a very imperfect way to create standing waves in air.

I reckon 'standing waves' are about the last thing I'd want. :)

[Macca]

?

[User211]

I've heard them on occasion years back. I don't recall a top directivity issue though. I did think they sounded about as good as any speaker I'd ever heard.
There is some slight directivity with the long thin ribbon in original Duettas.

This is alleviated to quite an extent with Interstellar as we horn flared the front and rear of the vertical genuine ribbon aperture slightly.

Jerry has heard both my original Duettas and Interstellar, the former in various states, one in particular running very "hot" mid range wise. That was insane - massive resolution and overbearing with too much detail.

With Interstellar I think I virtually blew him out of the room forgetting it sounds quite a bit louder in the listening seat than where I was. Still running pretty hot mid range wise then but I have calmed them down by modding the xovers.

I do like Jerry's MBLs quite a bit. They are quite genre agnostic and generally sound very good apart from when pussy power amps are connected. Despite what Jerry says they need juice IMHO.

[Sherwood]

Agree. Regardless of the design loudspeakers are a very imperfect way to create standing waves in air. You can get the amp or source to near perfection given enough money and knowledge but the speaker is always a crapshoot and that is before you put it into various different rooms and see it interact with them.

But it is like saying that your car would go a lot faster if it wasn't for all the friction from the tyre/road interface. We don't have an alternative to wheels just as we don't have an alternative to loudspeakers. (Headphones are just tiny loudspeakers btw before someone mentions them).

So just accept and choose your poison. :)

I agree with the basic premise of your argument: that the challenge of producing believable representations of live music is confounded by practical obstacles. For example:

a) how to cover the full range and dynamics of audible sound without producing speakers the size of telephone boxes
b) how to eliminate (or at least minimise) the sound of the cabinets housing the drivers
c) how to achieve a seamless balance between multiple drivers without the use of complex electronic crossovers that mask detail and impair dynamics

I could elaborate on the list of challenges but for me, the most cost effective approaches to dealing with these problems include those that aim to eliminate crossovers (e.g. full range drivers) or those which seek to minimise cabinet effects (e.g. electrostatics, ribbons, and open baffle designs).

I started in hifi with a pair of Rogers LS3/5a speakers which I guess minimised the effects of the cabinet by using a small over-engineered cabinet. The downside of this approach was a ridiculously complex and costly crossover that obscured detail and sapped dynamics. Over time, I have sought out speakers within my price range that better address the aforementioned design challenges. I have kept my Rogers for nostalgic reasons, but my main speakers in my digital streaming system are a ribbon design (Magneplanar 1.7s). In my vinyl only system I have a pair of Omega Super 7 Alnico Monitors which are a full range single driver unit. Finally, in my lounge I have a pair of Reference 3a de Capo Speakers for multimedia listening. These are a two driver design in a highly engineered cabinet that have no crossover. The two drive units have been designed to mesh together without the need for tonal correction.

I have heard some box speakers which impress me but these have typically been extremely large and expensive because of the engineering needed to eliminate the sound of the cabinets.

Geoff

[Macca]

I agree with the basic premise of your argument: that the challenge of producing believable representations of live music is confounded by practical obstacles. For example:

a) how to cover the full range and dynamics of audible sound without producing speakers the size of telephone boxes

I have heard some box speakers which impress me but these have typically been extremely large and expensive because of the engineering needed to eliminate the sound of the cabinets.

Geoff

Indeed, I would have no issue with having loudspeakers the size of telephone boxes in the room, I just can't afford them :) Likewise enormous full range stats or panels. Having to compromise is inevitable and so easy to accept, finding a compromise that I can live with is not so easy.

[Ziggy]

I think a lot of it is down to the listening room. Small stand mounts with a sub work well for me.

[Pharos]

I agree fully about standing waves; sound waves are longitudinal not tranverse, and they travel in the direction of propogastion.

Choice to me, is what compromise is least offensive, and I cannot tolerate the 5 or 6 unit 7' high things because of lack of integration of the sources. max 3 way for me.

Bracing is expensive for a commercial manufacturer, but we can do it in spades, my own have 53 braces per cabinet.

We cannot get over the problem of 'squirting' different frequencies from different points with multiple drivers.

None of it is a really convincing representation, but a facsimile, and it is asking a hell of a lot to expect bits of plastic, metal, and rubber in a box to not have a sound of their own.

I have just read that Tannoy has reintroduced the 70s range, Berkley and others BTW - many fans here.

[walpurgis]

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

[alphaGT]

http://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/listening-room-acoustics-1

That's good stuff. It's been a while since I've read up in the subject.


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