Why vinyl took the nose dive in the late 1980s - early 1990?

[magiccarpetride]

Having recently made a comeback to LPs and turntables (after a 27 year hiatus), I've rediscovered the uncontested beauty of reproduced music. During the course of previous 27 years or so, I was listening to music via digital sources (CDs, DVDs, WAV, AIFF, FLAC, MP3 files). I was building a fairly high end digital stereo system, upgrading components (CD players, DACs, digital transports), configuring, tweaking and fine tuning my digital playback.

Then, on a whim, suddenly decided to go and get me a turntable (I sold my old Thorens in 1989). I was sure that my new turntable is going to sound charming, quaint, nostalgic, 'warm', but definitely inferior to my mighty digital system. Boy was I in for a huge surprise!

My analog rig now beats my digital system by a country mile! And my analog system is barely entry-level audiophile grade. Be that as it may, I now started mulling over why did such obviously superior medium (LPs), lose to digital discs etc. Here is the 'explanation' I came up with (and you'll tell me if I'm way off or maybe on the right track):

1. Profit margins #1 -- as music industry ballooned in the '60s and '70s, initial passion and curiosity gave way to cold heartless business concerns. Simply put, music publishing became all about the bottom line. And I'm assuming that, all things being equal, corporations can squeeze higher margins from selling CDs and downloads and streaming subscriptions than they can from selling LPs. So that would be one reason why they came up with that bullshit slogan "perfect sound forever" and bullied the general public to switch to CDs.

2. Profit margins #2 -- (yes, it's all about the bottom line). As consumers started getting better and better turntables in order to enjoy the hi fi recordings that popular acts like Pink Floyd, Supertramp, Steely Dan, Mike Oldfield etc. were releasing, they started also getting pickier. Back in the early days of music industry, when most people were using cheap crappy turntables sitting on top of their radios, high fidelity wasn't at the top of their minds. But by the '70s (and especially going into the '80s), more and more people started getting very selective with their listening. Meaning, people would go to the record store, buy and LP, take it home, and then if the LP wasn't in perfect shape (a bit warped, or having a bit of a surface noise etc.), the consumers would promptly return the record. Once a sealed record is opened, it cannot be resold for a full price, and the manufacturers were not too keen on taking returns, so record stores realized that selling LPs is a finicky business. That's why they eagerly embraced CDs, because chances that something might be wrong with a CD are infinitesimally smaller than chances that something might be wrong with an LP.

These two forces contributed to the demise of vinyl. Luckily, we're now slowly getting back to our senses and are reclaiming our lives by turning our attention to the analog sound. That's a reason for rejoicing, and we need to make sure that the sleazy snake oil salesmen tactics don't bite us again, like they did thirty years ago. Music must come first, and only then corporate profitability and all that jazz.

[Paul-H]

In the eighties the new CD format offered or was advertised to offer a solution to everything that most people didn't like with LP'S ie no noise less space needed for storage less susceptible to surface damage (remember on tomorrow's world the jam incident) and to most users it did everything it was advertised to do. Plus in the eighties the cost of oil went through the roof so Vinyl got too costly to make and quality suffered with LP'S getting thinner and thinner.

Plus the 80's where not a good time for new music with much of it being of a listen once and throw it away quality thanks to the likes of stock aitken and Waterman:(

How digital sounds compared to analogue depends on how you listen to your music, with your head or your heart ;) do you listen to the music or the electrons.

Personally I prefer Vinyl but still enjoy a good CD.

Paul

[Haselsh1]

I first got into compact disc in 1983 when I bought a Yamaha CDX1. Almost immediately I started to get rid of my vinyl collection. Then my Logic DM101 bit the dust and was sold off. I realised that the things I hated the most about vinyl were now gone forever.

[Ziggy]

I think vinyl took a nose dive in the early 90s because of the emergence of cheap portable CD players which were snapped up by the mass market. They did sound a lot better than the previous radio cassette players.

Whether or not vinyl sounds better than digital is a matter of opinion. For me it is digital, providing the DAC is up to it. The inherent problems of vinyl, pops, hiss, restricted bass and deterioration of SQ near the end of a record side cannot be overcome. Added to this is the cost of a decent TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage, compared to a good DAC, not to mention the cost of new vinyl. Funds save can be spent on the amplifier, speakers, cables and speaker stands.

[Oddball]

I think vinyl took a nose dive in the early 90s because of the emergence of cheap portable CD players which were snapped up by the mass market. They did sound a lot better than the previous radio cassette players.

Whether or not vinyl sounds better than digital is a matter of opinion. For me it is digital, providing the DAC is up to it. The inherent problems of vinyl, pops, hiss, restricted bass and deterioration of SQ near the end of a record side cannot be overcome. Added to this is the cost of a decent TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage, compared to a good DAC, not to mention the cost of new vinyl. Funds save can be spent on the amplifier, speakers, cables and speaker stands.

Convienience of the CD ,a new thing , plus ,you could take the cd out into the car , to rock out to !!
Then folk copied cd's for their own use and as a compact format was great!

We lost a good bit of physicality via the album sleeve to peruse . I think the returners and audiophiles are sucking the younger generation along with their second love affair with the Vinyl record !!
I never got rid of my vinyl ,its not mint but is basically clean and listenable , so I personally play mine on the less desirable sort of kit .
I have bought a few albums I wished I had at the time but I dont think I will buy new stuff on vinyl.
Thats just me!!

[Marco]

Hi Clive,


The inherent problems of vinyl, pops, hiss, restricted bass and deterioration of SQ near the end of a record side cannot be overcome.

You can certainly overcome pops! Simply clean records thoroughly through an RCM, one of which should be owned by any serious vinyl and T/T owner. And you can reduce end of side distortion to the status of virtual inaudibility, by using a cartridge equipped with a fine-line stylus, and optimising all aspects of set up.

"Restricted bass", whilst a measurable phenomenon in comparison with that of CD, is never a real-world issue with any good turntable. I can assure you that if I played you a 12" single of, say, Frankie Goes to Hollywood's 'Two Tribes', and whacked up the volume, you would not be complaining of "restricted bass"!! :eek: :nono:

At the end of the day, it's all relative, depending on how much time, effort and funds you're willing to throw at vinyl or digital, in order to hear either format at its absolute best, and therefore be in a position to properly judge what it can *really* do :cool:

Marco.

[petrat]

How people choose to consume 'content' is a generational thing. I have just retired after working in higher education for twenty years, and, for the most part, the current generation of students simply don't buy ANY of the following physical artefacts: televisions, hifi, CDs, DVDs, books (including textbooks!), newspapers, magazines, watches, and diaries. All they own are clothes, a phone and a laptop ... and the most important thing in their life is constant access to the net, with dependable and secure data storage! From now on, each decade will see the further demise of all physical media, until they are all just 'niche' pastimes for eccentrics. Bookshops and newsagents are already going the way of Tower Records and Blockbusters. As I've said before, I truly think that my precious record collection and exotic hifi will be, essentially, worthless to my heirs if I manage to make it another couple of decades.

[struth]

Not to say it wont swing round again though.

[Marco]

How people choose to consume 'content' is a generational thing. I have just retired after working in higher education for twenty years, and, for the most part, the current generation of students simply don't buy ANY of the following physical artefacts: televisions, hifi, CDs, DVDs, books (including textbooks!), newspapers, magazines, watches, and diaries. All they own are clothes, a phone and a laptop ... and the most important thing in their life is constant access to the net, with dependable and secure data storage! From now on, each decade will see the further demise of all physical media, until they are all just 'niche' pastimes for eccentrics. Bookshops and newsagents are already going the way of Tower Records and Blockbusters. As I've said before, I truly think that my precious record collection and exotic hifi will be, essentially, worthless to my heirs if I manage to make it another couple of decades.

...and yet that attitude isn't reflected in the current resurgence in the popularity, and thus production and sale of T/Ts and records, and I'm not talking about in the 'high-end' sector either.

I guess it depends on where you look, and which sub-section of young people you know. Every generation has always had its fair share of those who simply follow what the mass market dictates, and those more discerning, who take a less well-trodden path. Not everyone, you know, is a brainwashed, peer-pressured sheep ;)

There are still free-thinkers out there in our young community, keen to do their own thing and stand out from the crowd.... The problem is that there's always a danger of viewing the world, rather superficially, simply through the evidence of your own surroundings, and as a result forming some rather erroneous conclusions. We're all guilty of it.

Every independent record shop I'm in these days (and many new ones are popping up here all the time) is filled more with 'bohemian trendies', under 30, buying their 'vinyls', than us 'ageing hippies', not only because its cool, but because they love how it sounds (and yes I've spoken to them about this), and I don't think it's a fad either, but rather something that's liable to slowly grow more momentum, simply because as humans, when we're exposed to it, analogue sound has something intrinsically 'right' about it that digital simply doesn't deliver.

And trust me, when you expose young people to it, whose ears up until that point have been 'weaned' on MP3-quality digital, listened to through tinny sounding earbuds, the 'warm', rich sound of vinyl its a veritable revelation to them! :eek:

That is why (along with the physical nature and looks of LPs) they become hooked on it. After that, human nature being what it is, some will undoubtedly explore things in more detail and seek better sound quality, which means better equipment, and before long they're visiting their local Richer Sounds - and a new generation of audio enthusiast is born....

Look at the way the headphone market is going, for example. Youngsters are spending significant amounts of money on better ones because they can hear the difference, so it's not that they don't care about good sound. Now don't get me wrong, I agree that they will always be in the minority, but then that was always the case for us, even in its heyday, when the vast majority of the population couldn't have given a hoot for quality hi-fi equipment. Our behaviour was always very much contrary to the norm!

And for me that situation will continue, albeit true high-end audio (amps and speakers costing the price of a large house, etc), will become a thing of the past, but there will always exist discerning people in this world, and those whose tastes extend out with of that catered for by mainstream products, which is subsequently why I believe that the market for quality audio equipment will always exist, in some form or another.

Marco.

[WESTLOWER]

All they own are clothes, a phone and a laptop ... and the most important thing in their life is constant access to the net, with dependable and secure data storage!.

I have to sadly agree with Peter, my son (19) has never once asked me about the thousands of records in every available space in the house. He just thinks i'm a Caveman. Clothes, Phone tinternet... thats all he 'needs'!

My first love is my Vinyl collection, built with considered passion and care over 30+ years, I did buy CDs in the 80s - 90s, lots of them, but only because the market dictated i must and I had no feeling for them at all
bloody hard to read the booklets as you get older too!...I also purchased MiniDiscs!! That seems like a long time ago. But the point being, I purchased what the market told me to at the time.
The industry 'needs' the next format to use as a vehicle, Vinyl, CD, Mini Disc, streaming whatever.. they have no preference, if it moves units they will back it. After backing streaming services I can't imagine the industries next move.

I personally have now gone full circle and ripped the CDs. sold 'em and gone back to my Vinyl. Lets get it right though, a badly recorded record on a poor system can sound like a kick in the nuts
so it takes a lot of care, consideration and dosh to get it up to scratch. The streamed music files and subscription music supply has also invigorated my hunger for music, I check out lots of new material
or stuff I never bought on Vinyl and put through the good quality equipment, it sounds great... But my lust for tactile objects with history and the sheer beauty of Vinyl when it hits the sweet spot is unquenchable.

I am very good friends with a record shop owner in North London, (Flashback Records) one of very few left!, the New Vinyl market is thriving, the second hand record sales are thriving (recycled stock dependent, which seems to be drying up at an alarming rate) but his view is the bubble will without doubt burst on the New Vinyl fad.

I'm afraid what's been said before is correct, the future shelves of houses will have very little content with few books, records or CDs... Not a house I want to be in thanks.
Heartbreaking to think but my son will without doubt skip my wax when I'm dribbling in front of a 3 bar fire.

Now, i wonder where all my MiniDiscs have got to... !

[Marco]

I am very good friends with a record shop owner in North London, (Flashback Records) one of very few left!, the New Vinyl market is thriving, the second hand record sales are thriving (recycled stock dependent, which seems to be drying up at an alarming rate) but his view is the bubble will without doubt burst on the New Vinyl fad.


Well, Adam, I suspect that you're not looking hard enough to find them, because if London is anything like any other large city in the UK I've visited recently (and why wouldn't it be, as it's the capital, and therefore the largest?) there are small independent record shops, dotted all over the place, and new ones opening up too, run by folk under the age of 40! ;)

That's certainly the case in Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool, Manchester, Stoke, Leeds, Birmingham, and near me in Shrewsbury. Even the second-hand record shops in Wrexham are starting to sell brand-new vinyl now, simply due to demand!

Furthermore, HMV are stocking vinyl again in serious quantities, not to mention some supermarkets (!) so the current rise in the popularity of vinyl is being reflected at mainstream level, too. Therefore, with respect, you're painting a rather falsely skewed picture of reality, based simply on the habits and views of those in your familiar surroundings.

And for that reason, and all I outlined in my last post, I completely disagree that the vinyl 'bubble' will burst, simply because I believe that what's happening with it now is more fundamental, and so goes much deeper than being merely a fad.

Marco.

[struth]

Info ive read says that young folk are the future for vinyl. They seem to use streaming to discover music then buy what they like on the physical medium of choice, usually vinyl. New shops are opening all the time

[RMutt]

Marco's first post gives you the answer to the opening posters question. Back then the sound of CD compared to the average music listener's record player was simply astonishing. At the time I had more than an average interest. I bought the hi-fi magazines and I followed their recommendations for as far a I could afford. I had a Dual turntable and all the recommended bits and bobs and yet even to me CD blew vinyl out of the water, never mind the 'normal' listener with their all in one music system. I doubt any of them would be willing to follow Marco's record cleaning regime let alone all the other fuss (not to mention expense) required to make a turntable perform to its optimum. CD got there with minimum hassle, no wonder WE all bought them in our droves.

[WESTLOWER]

I hope you are right. Only time will tell. As regard to actual record stores in North London, there are simply very few. 'Not Looking hard enough' for Vinyl is something i can't be
guilty of ;-) , my wife will vouch for that!! I can only think of 4 in North London... and yes we have all seen Vinyl in Sainsburys, a few classic titles and LPs even on the shelf of the Postoffice magazine section, stuck to a Vinyl mag but will that last?...hmmm, I want it to. As for HMV...are there any High St HMVs left? our one is now a H&M clothes store.. can't think of another other than Oxford St W1..
Soho, central London used to be full of independent record shops, but they have simply dropped off and very few remain. Fact. Your right a few have sprung up in Shoreditch, Hackney and the suburbs etc. and more power to them.

I'm not skewing the picture, the reality is the vinyl resurgence is alive, I get that, but is it a sustainable market or a fad? Time will tell. I can only pass on the feelings of an experienced record shop owner, 30 years +
he feels the New Vinyl pressings will fade out in time and that good second hand stocks are harder and harder to get. Serious New Vinyl (not represses of Rumours) is also far more expensive than other formats,
that is not going to help keep it alive and growing in the long run. I wonder if their is a demographic regarding the age of New Vinyl buyers. I'd be gobsmacked if it were teens.

[Audio Al]

but definitely inferior to my mighty digital system. Boy was I in for a huge surprise!

My analog rig now beats my digital system by a country mile!

:lol: Love it , Welcome home brother :D

[struth]

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/features/vinyl-streaming-music-industry-spotify-ed-sheeran-2017-deezer-mr-bongo-formats-digital-downloads-a7635131.html

Some interesting guff here. Of course how true it is ive no idea .... but friends who have teenage and early 20's kids/ grandkids say most of them and pals are into buying it, although not all play them. Just collect their favs

[Marco]

I hope you are right. Only time will tell. As regard to actual record stores in North London, there are simply very few. 'Not Looking hard enough' for Vinyl is something i can't be
guilty of ;-) , my wife will vouch for that!! I can only think of 4 in North London...


Lol - love it! :D

However, I'd suggest that four in North London alone isn't too bad! Also, you may need to broaden your horizons a little and venture further north, as the trust me, the scene is rather different up there, and I have my reasons for that.....


...and yes we have all seen Vinyl in Sainsburys, a few classic titles and LPs even on the shelf of the Postoffice magazine section, stuck to a Vinyl mag but will that last?...hmmm, I want it to.


No, in that area I don't think it will, simply because the buying habits of the majority of their customer base lie too much in the mainstream, therefore in terms of sustained supermarket sales of vinyl, I see no real future in it.


As for HMV...are there any High St HMVs left? our one is now a H&M clothes store.. can't think of another other than Oxford St W1..


Lol - the country's buying habits don't revolve just around London, you know!

Near me, the Chester and Shrewsbury branches of HMV have shelves full of the stuff... I haven't looked elsewhere, as I prefer giving my business to the smaller shops.

I think you need to get out more and see what's happening around the rest of the country - take your wife for a nice weekend trip away, and leave her to browse the shoe shops while you enjoy finding evidence of what I've been saying :eyebrows:


Soho, central London used to be full of independent record shops, but they have simply dropped off and very few remain. Fact. Your right a few have sprung up in Shoreditch, Hackney and the suburbs etc. and more power to them.


See what happens when you apply a little more thought...? ;)


I can only pass on the feelings of an experienced record shop owner, 30 years + he feels the New Vinyl pressings will fade out in time and that good second hand stocks are harder and harder to get. Serious New Vinyl (not represses of Rumours) is also far more expensive than other formats, that is not going to help keep it alive and growing in the long run.


In my experience, a lot of the older guys who've been in the business for years are a bit jaded and 'burnt out' with the whole thing, plus out of touch with the scene in a wider context, and so fail to see the bigger picture. Often they don't stock the right kind of music (or even know what that is) in order to attract youngsters in the first place!

If the shop is full of Steely Dan and The Eagles, then it stands to reason that's only going to attract a certain type of customer. Not saying your guy is like that, but a lot of them are, and simply too stuck in the past. To get the kids in, you need to major in the likes of indie, R&B, hip-hop, electronica and other types of dance music.


I wonder if their is a demographic regarding the age of New Vinyl buyers. I'd be gobsmacked if it were teens.

It's not so much happening with teens, IME, but more in the 20-35 year old age group, and of course above.

Marco.

[cre009]

For me the demise in vinyl didn't happen until after around 2000 when it was no longer a few titles no longer available on vinyl to most no longer available. The second hand market was not enough to sustain my interest so I actually stopped playing records for several years until 2011 when the revival got me interested again.

The impression I have is that the stores would really prefer to only concentrate on one physical medium and there is evidence that CD may no longer be that medium. CD currently has the advantage of cheaper prices but vinyl is getting more popular and people who are buying the physical product (as opposed to online downloads and streaming) are prepared to pay the premium for vinyl. The record and technology companies are not offering up any new alternative physical medium so will provide whatever people are prepared to pay for.

[petrat]

Presumably the DJ's 12 inch 'dance' single never went away? Maybe, more young people are already vinyl-aware through clubbing.

[WESTLOWER]

Grant, that is an interesting article and if what's predicted by the 'industry experts' comes to fruition then we can look forward to this
glorious format for a long time yet. MR Bongo is mentioned in the article as they were one of the good London Soho shops that shut which i referred to previously...
Marco was right to a certain extent, my kids (and their mates) lack of interest was a barometer for my 'skewed' view
on kids and Vinyl. The stampede of the annual Record Store day will help prop the Vinyl resurgence up.

BTW Record Store day...this is also a question I have come across in the stores around this time of the year. (every day is Record Store day in my world)
A fantastic celebration of independent stores and music or a Cynical marketing ploy and profit skimming?
Record stores can severely get stung with RSD...They buy from the distributors from lists put out prior to the day, it is NOT sale or return so the store owner has to
purchase what they think they will shift, and supplies of certain items being 'Limited ' creates that buzz.. They over order, because some years if you put down an order of say 10
of a certain title you may only get 1 or 2... So for the Record companies and distributors it's a no risk situation, for small independent stores it can be crippling if they get it wrong.

[Arkless Electronics]

I reckon it's very much a passing fad personally. The yoof don't seem to have any interest in sound quality and in fact often seem to want it to sound awful so it's "authentic dude" (or would that be "sick" nowadays?). I've noticed that on Radio 2 when they sometimes make a point of playing vinyl it will often be all crackly and have very obvious distortion from being played loads of times on an ancient BSR or what have you with a sapphire lump of coal at 20 grams... If perfect condition vinyl is played is played on high end gear they'd probably think it sounds just like CD and so it would hold no interest to them.

A few will develop a genuine and lasting interest of course and this is to be welcomed but for most... nah..

[Macca]

Presumably the DJ's 12 inch 'dance' single never went away? Maybe, more young people are already vinyl-aware through clubbing.

'Clubbing' was over years ago now. You're living in the past, Peter ;). Kids today don't even know the word for 'Turntable'. 'Spinny things' is one way I have heard them described.

[WESTLOWER]

Marco i'm a little confused.... are you saying life exists north of the Watford Gap??:scratch:
Mate, the last thing my Mrs needs is another pair of fooking shoes!


Lol - love it! :D

However, I'd suggest that four in North London alone isn't too bad! Also, you may need to broaden your horizons a little and venture further north, as the trust me, the scene is rather different up there, and I have my reasons for that.....



No, in that area I don't think it will, simply because the buying habits of the majority of their customer base lie too much in the mainstream, therefore in terms of sustained supermarket sales of vinyl, I see no real future in it.



Lol - the country's buying habits don't revolve just around London, you know!

Near me, the Chester and Shrewsbury branches have shelves full of the stuff... I haven't looked elsewhere, as I prefer giving my business to the smaller shops.

I think you need to get out more and see what's happening around the rest of the country - take your wife for a nice weekend trip away, and leave her to browse the shoe shops while you enjoy finding evidence of what I've been saying :eyebrows:



See what happens when you apply a little more thought...? ;)



In my experience, a lot of the older guys who've been in the business for years are a bit jaundiced and 'burnt out' with the whole thing, and also out of touch with the scene in a wider context, and so fail to see the bigger picture. Often they don't stock the right kind of music (or even know what that is) in order to attract youngsters in the first place!

If the shop is full of Steely Dan and The Eagles, then it stands to reason that's only going to attract a certain type of customer. Not saying your guy is like that, but a lot of them are, and simply too stuck in the past. You need to major in the likes of indie, R&B and dance music.



It's not so much happening with teens, IME, but more in the 20-35 year old age group, and of course above.

Marco.

[struth]

Not life as you know it... a bit alien, but life all the same :D

[WESTLOWER]

:lol:


I've noticed that on Radio 2

[WESTLOWER]

Presumably the DJ's 12 inch 'dance' single never went away? Maybe, more young people are already vinyl-aware through clubbing.

i feel old....

[petrat]

'Clubbing' was over years ago now. You're living in the past, Peter ;).

:D I like living in the past, Martin! In my mind, it was a nicer and happier place. Anyway, I'm a jazz-rat, so it's OK ...

[Macca]

:D I like living in the past, Martin! In my mind, it was a nicer and happier place. Anyway, I'm a jazz-rat, so it's OK ...

Oh me too. Old music, old telly, old books, old ways of doing things. I feel sorry for the youngsters, especially the state of the music today. We might have thought music went downhill in the 1980s but compared to now it was still the age of genius.

[Arkless Electronics]

:lol:


Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
I've noticed that on Radio 2

It's the only station worth listening to and I recommend it highly.

[Audio Al]

Quote Originally Posted by Arkless Electronics View Post
I've noticed that on Radio 2

It's the only station worth listening to and I recommend it highly.


Not at night since the mass sacking , now all they play are repeats and pre recorded playlists :(

[Arkless Electronics]

[/B]

Not at night since the mass sacking , now all they play are repeats and pre recorded playlists :(

It depends what day it is... Sat night is very good and I don't much mind the repeats as they are often from only a couple of days before and I've sometimes missed them... I didn't know anything about any sackings though and I listen to Radio 2 approx 14 hours a day, everyday. Basically if I'm awake, at home and not listening to the main system then Radio 2 is on in the background.

Apart from 1-3 pm on a Sunday when the Elaine Page show is on and that is so bad that the radio must go off!

[Audio Al]

Presenters Janice Long and Alex Lester AXED

Instead, repeats of other Radio 2 shows will air from midnight and different styles of music will play out till 5am, in a new strand called Radio 2 Playlists.

Alex has been broadcasting on BBC Radio 2 for 30 years, gaining him the nickname the Dark Lord after he took over the early morning show permanently in 1990. Janice Long has been on the ‘overnights’ since 2000, starting out on midnight till 2am then moving to the After Midnight show four days a week when it was introduced in 2014.

[Barry]

Oh me too. Old music, old telly, old books, old ways of doing things. I feel sorry for the youngsters, especially the state of the music today. We might have thought music went downhill in the 1980s but compared to now it was still the age of genius.

+1 to that! My house is full of books, records, CDs and my telly is 35 years old (so old, not only does it use a CRT, but doesn't have a SCART socket!). I have at least eight film cameras and as for the car I drive - well just ask Marco! :lol:

[Stratmangler]

Kids today don't even know the word for 'Turntable'. 'Spinny things' is one way I have heard them described.

I've heard it referred to as a "vinyl player".
My son, on the other hand is in the minority, because he knows the big round black things are called records (not vinyls), and you play them on a record player :D

[struth]

+1 to that! My house is full of books, records, CDs and my telly is 35 years old (so old, not only does it use a CRT, but doesn't have a SCART socket!). I have at least eight film cameras and as for the car I drive - well just ask Marco! :lol:

Must make dvd watching tricky

[WESTLOWER]

Must make dvd watching tricky

Is it colour?

[Arkless Electronics]

Presenters Janice Long and Alex Lester AXED

Instead, repeats of other Radio 2 shows will air from midnight and different styles of music will play out till 5am, in a new strand called Radio 2 Playlists.

Alex has been broadcasting on BBC Radio 2 for 30 years, gaining him the nickname the Dark Lord after he took over the early morning show permanently in 1990. Janice Long has been on the ‘overnights’ since 2000, starting out on midnight till 2am then moving to the After Midnight show four days a week when it was introduced in 2014.

I often listen(ed) to both yes but hadn't noticed they'd gone... must have been very recent then as I reckon I've listened to Alex Lester within the last month... He used to be on Radio Tees many years ago... I'll look up their axing...

[Audio Al]

Bbc cost cutting

[magiccarpetride]

How people choose to consume 'content' is a generational thing. I have just retired after working in higher education for twenty years, and, for the most part, the current generation of students simply don't buy ANY of the following physical artefacts: televisions, hifi, CDs, DVDs, books (including textbooks!), newspapers, magazines, watches, and diaries. All they own are clothes, a phone and a laptop ... and the most important thing in their life is constant access to the net, with dependable and secure data storage! From now on, each decade will see the further demise of all physical media, until they are all just 'niche' pastimes for eccentrics. Bookshops and newsagents are already going the way of Tower Records and Blockbusters. As I've said before, I truly think that my precious record collection and exotic hifi will be, essentially, worthless to my heirs if I manage to make it another couple of decades.

You raise an interesting point. It's the 'virtualization' paradigm. As a society, we are witnessing rapid virtualization of pretty much everything. Paper got virtualized by screens. But are screens the final frontier? No. Screens are now being virtualized by voice. Is voice then the final virtual frontier? Probably not; scientists could find a way to virtualize the voice and replace it with 'thought waves'. Who's to say?

I've been on the high tech forefront all my life. I'm currently working on Artificial Intelligence research projects, so I get a closer insights into what's going on, and where the money is poured into these days. Bottom line -- it seems to be all about virtualization.

So what? So, in this mad cow rush to virtualize and automate absolutely everything, we are slowly now starting to realize that we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. Yes, convenience is great, and we do live in the world ruled by the terror of convenience. But convenience most of the time serves as a sedative. It sedates us into the weird state of semi-dreaming. Basically daydreaming through our lives.

We're now seeing more and more people attempting to snap out of this seductive word of hypnosis which seems to be inevitably heading towards the terrible world of global virtual and augmented reality. The vinyl resurgence (I read somewhere that LP sales have surpassed digital music sales in UK last December) is one such attempt to reclaim our lives. To wrestle it back from the greedy slimey fingers of corporate profiteering. I, for one, feel huge resurgence of joy and enthusiasm by rediscovering my LP collection and reconnecting with my community of vinyl-lovers.

I predict similar Luddite movements are afoot with regards to other virtualized media (books, magazines, films, food, sex, travelling, etc.)

[walpurgis]

I'm too much of 'a stick in the mud' to be a luddite. Luddite thinking is far too progressive for me.

[Macca]

To get back to the o/p - is it that vinyl nosedived because hardly anyone was buying it, or was hardly anyone buying it because it was no longer available?

I carried on until my local shop stopped stocking it altogether, at which point I gave in and bought a CD player. That was around '97 and I was still buying a fair few new releases. Of course some of those would not eve have been issued on vinyl so regardless, if I wanted them I would need to buy the CD. But were they not on vinyl because it was not worth pressing a vinyl version, or because the record companies were forcing us onto CD?

[magiccarpetride]

To get back to the o/p - is it that vinyl nosedived because hardly anyone was buying it, or was hardly anyone buying it because it was no longer available?

I carried on until my local shop stopped stocking it altogether, at which point I gave in and bought a CD player. That was around '97 and I was still buying a fair few new releases. Of course some of those would not eve have been issued on vinyl so regardless, if I wanted them I would need to buy the CD. But were they not on vinyl because it was not worth pressing a vinyl version, or because the record companies were forcing us onto CD?

Record shops had initially set their business on the idea that LPs are their biggest asset. They lived and died by the quality of the selection they were carrying. The music industry was booming.

Then, slowly, as the customers started getting more discerning, the initial asset started turning into liability. Customers started returning less-than-perfect LPs en masse. That was caused by people getting better hi fi systems and reading all the hi fi hype in the magazines. Eventually, record shops started discouraging customers from buying LPs and directed them toward the cassette tapes/CDs section. I remember those days very well, and my disappointment in not being able to buy LPs I was keen on.

Eventually, in 1994, I caved in and bought a CD player.

[Barry]

Must make dvd watching tricky

No, the DVD player (and the digi-box) are routed via the video cassette recorder and thence to the UHF socket of the TV. It does mean there are four units to switch on!

I have about 250 DVDs to watch in my collection.

[Macca]

I don't know if your personal experience is that representative though. Some albums sold millions of copies in a few months, all those people were not reading hi fi magazines or had anything more than a Sanyo midi system or music centre to play them on. Cassette tape only took a decade to surpass vinyl sales, by the 1980s the majority of albums bought were bought on pre-recorded cassette. 90% of music buyers are not concerned with sound quality in the slightest, they want convience and low price. (90% is probably too low an estimate).

By '95 your Sanyo midi or portable player had a CD player in it and was less than £100 all in. The CD player was no longer a yuppy toy, anyone could buy one. The crappy CD player built in to your new midi system is going to sound better than the crappy plastic TT with drinking straw arm and ruby stylus or the crappy double tape deck also fitted? Yes, just a bit. Same price as the LP? Well that is it then, game over.

[Arkless Electronics]

Technology for the sake of it seems to be the modern mantra... or maybe it's a never ending drive for the "obsolescence" of whatever came "just before" in order to make only the latest thing commercially desirable? New technology often seems in many ways less effective, or at best no more effective, than that which preceded it but is always smaller, digital/more digital, cheaper to manufacture and and has new features which are often as much use as a chocolate fireguard and have to be accessed via god knows how many clicks on on-screen menus! I hate the genericisation and disposable nature of so much modern technology, electronics especially!

As an analogue electronic engineer there is no longer much call for my skills outside of a few niche areas, hi fi thankfully being a notable one! For example although I could no doubt design (have done in some cases) such things as radio receivers and transmitters, car electrics, an ECG machine, burglar alarms, mixing desks etc etc, as an analogue EE I would use techniques the same as those used in the mid 80's or so, with a few improvements and size reduction possible due to improved components since then.... there are though new digital techniques used in all commercial pro quality examples of all the above, and much else, which make my knowledge in these areas as relevant as that of a steam train designer 5 years after they built the last steam train... pity. I guess that's "progress" eh...

At least hi fi and guitar amps etc are still a bastion of analogue... for now anyway. Even there things ain't what they used to be... you can buy guitar amps which digitise the sound and then use DSP to try and recreate the sound of specific vintage amps.... unlike traditional amps these are of course unrepairable short of just replacing the entire digital board... High end guitar amps are still resolutely valved though :)

The "Internet Of Things" is the latest bandwagon and seems completely pointless to me, technology for the sake of it again. Many trade mags I get have ads from chip makers pushing this technology at the moment. I can't say I ever lost sleep at not being able to tell my fridge to defrost from my mobile phone! I wonder how long it will take hackers to do just that?... unless you pay fridge ransom!:eek:

[Macca]

The "Internet Of Things" is the latest bandwagon and seems completely pointless to me, technology for the sake of it again. Many trade mags I get have ads from chip makers pushing this technology at the moment. I can't say I ever lost sleep at not being able to tell my fridge to defrost from my mobile phone! I wonder how long it will take hackers to do just that?... unless you pay fridge ransom!:eek:

LOL I have also wondered exactly who is interested in being able to control their fridge from the office, or when on holiday. I mean it is a fridge, I can honestly say that of all the things that occupy my attention in life the fridge must be bottom or near bottom. 'Hey we can do this with technology now so let's try and sell it to some nut with no life and more money than sense' seems to be the way of it now.

[Barry]

Good post Jez, much of which I agree with wholehartedly.

I'm so distrustful of the security of e-everything, that I will ALWAYS and ONLY deal with a human being when it comes to booking tickets, or dealing with my bank.

I'm also resentful of the fact that modern consumer electronics are deliberately designed to be irrepairable. One reason why I'm attracted to professional audio gear.

[Marco]

I reckon it's very much a passing fad personally. The yoof don't seem to have any interest in sound quality and in fact often seem to want it to sound awful so it's "authentic dude" (or would that be "sick" nowadays?). I've noticed that on Radio 2 when they sometimes make a point of playing vinyl it will often be all crackly and have very obvious distortion from being played loads of times on an ancient BSR or what have you with a sapphire lump of coal at 20 grams... If perfect condition vinyl is played is played on high end gear they'd probably think it sounds just like CD and so it would hold no interest to them.

A few will develop a genuine and lasting interest of course and this is to be welcomed but for most... nah..

Did you read anything I wrote in my previous posts, mate? Plus, in all honestly, how genuinely in touch are you with what the "yoof" of today are doing? And how many independent record shops have you recently visited around the UK, in order to 'vet' the clientele? ;)

When posting on these kinds of topics, folks, you really need to take into consideration what's happening in the rest of the world, outside of your own back yard.......

Marco.

[Marco]

Marco i'm a little confused.... are you saying life exists north of the Watford Gap??:scratch:
Mate, the last thing my Mrs needs is another pair of fooking shoes!

:lolsign:

Yeah, we have running water now, electricity and everyfink.... Even inside toilets!! Would you credit it?? :eek:

Marco.

[Marco]

Good post Jez, much of which I agree with wholehartedly.

I'm also resentful of the fact that modern consumer electronics are deliberately designed to be irrepairable. One reason why I'm attracted to professional audio gear.

+1 on both, although you need to invest in a spellchecker! ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Really? No errors flagged up by Microsoft Office.

[Arkless Electronics]

Good post Jez, much of which I agree with wholehartedly.

I'm so distrustful of the security of e-everything, that I will ALWAYS and ONLY deal with a human being when it comes to booking tickets, or dealing with my bank.

I'm also resentful of the fact that modern consumer electronics are deliberately designed to be irrepairable. One reason why I'm attracted to professional audio gear.

Even most of the latest pro gear is irreparably modern high tech now! By and large if it's digital it can't be fixed... try replacing a 200 pin BGA (Ball Grid Array) IC! Or getting hold of source code for and reprogramming a faulty EPROM that's part of a DSP engine.... With this sort of thing only the manufacturer could fix it and they would probably put a complete new board in anyway. Try getting it fixed after 5 years...

I will more often than not forgo all sorts of fiendishly helpful modern IC's when I'm designing stuff as I know only too well that the part will probably be obsolete in a few years time. Texas Instruments have just dismayed many audio designers by obsoleting half of their range of "high end audio op-amps" which they inherited from National Semiconductors when they unfortunately bought them out a few years ago. It seems like no time since I saw trade ads pushing the latest "NEW! Only 0.00001% THD op-amp is new leader of the pack!" type ads for these! (probably about 6 years ago actually). Hi Fi etc at the highest quality level is such a small seller for semiconductor makers that already the best ever examples of low noise FET's, op-amps, transistors are obsolete and haven't been replaced!

The test gear I use is largely from between around 1960 and 1982 or so but is of a quality such that the very same instruments were used by the likes of NASA, The National Physics Lab, university research depts etc. Test gear has got vastly smaller and cheaper but the modern stuff is far less intuitive to use and in the main no more accurate. The stuff I have can be repaired though and without access to "factory only" diagnostic tools etc!! :)

[Marco]

Really? No errors flagged up by Microsoft Office.

Well, it must be broken, daftee... Even without a spellchecker, I know that "wholehartedly" is spelled 'wholeheartedly', and "irrepairable" is 'irreparable' ;)

Marco.

[Jimbo]

I lump the whole of the digital 'revolution' along with the computerisation of anything you can put a chip in. The whole industry is a great capitalist idea to make money out of everything you do via a computer and digital music and equipment runs parallel with this. I too am maybe from the dark ages but in 1976 before we had digital or computers I did almost everything I can do now apart from what I am doing now which is typing this on a forum. So what did I do before digital?
I could go into a travel agent and book a holiday, loads of choice, buy a ticket and fly to Spain. I could pop down to the train station and buy a ticket and travel to Euston station which I did yesterday and I can tell you I don't think it's changed much since 1975!

I could go to a record shop and peruse a vast collection of music and even listen to it before hand, purchase it and take it home. My system in the late seventies sounded as good as many of the state of the art digital systems now. My holiday to Spain was cheaper and more satisfying, free from the massive security time delaying stuff you get now. I even got a nice free heated meal! My train journey was less overcrowded in the late 1970's and not much slower and I could buy beer and sandwiches on the train.

What I am getting at is now you can interact with all these things via a computer because some bright spark realised you could write a programme that would become a website on the tinternet and make you believe you had to do it this way as with everything else so computers took off and the cash rolled in for the whole industry and keeps rolling in as you are quickly superseded by obsolescence. So you are told. None of my life was worse for not having a computer, mobile phone or CD player. There was a deeper satisfaction from interacting with the world and real people rather than reverting constantly to a glass screen in different sizes to view the world. Computers and digital music are nothing more than technological ways of capturing you and extracting cash from you repeatedly.

Just look at the zombies wandering round staring at their phones and the couples who go out to dinner and keep checking their phones. There is a nasty addiction almost like a drug working here which ensnares the masses and instead of looking at the world around them they see it all through a screen.Their social life is now accessed via a screen and music comes from a streamed load of digital files.

What did I do before Internet Hifi forums? I went round to mates houses and listened to music and systems. I went to Hifi dealers and spent many hours their listening to actual kit. I was not a virtual audiophile and I certainly listened to vinyl:)

I may be wrong, I maybe talking bollocks but I think there are a few grains of truth in there.

[Olddiverman]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. This thread has become Grumpy Old Men. " It wasn't like that in my day", "things ain't" etc, etc. The OP asked why vinyl took a nose-dive in the late '80s- early '90s. Well, it is pretty obvious, and I was there. CDs. It was obvious to anyone who could see and hear, that CDs would wipe out "vynil". Vynil was a faff (?), fussing about handling fragile LPs, cleaning, watching for the needle to drop in the right place, short sides, crackles, pops, distortion,getting up and turning them over half way through, and all this multiple times if you liked opera. Now, I had, in 1982, a quite nice "hi-fi" system, and enjoyed good sound from my LPs, but the majority of people who weren't music lovers or hi-fi enthusiasts, had pretty shitty BSR deck type record players. And even a cheap CD player sounded FANTASTIC compared to that. That's why "vynil" took a nose dive. It was as if everyone drove Model T Fords and suddenly the Ford Focus appeared. Who would want to drive a Model T as their every-day transport in 1990? Of course everyone adopted CDs. Meanwhile, of course, some of us had better record playing systems, hi-fi even, and , speaking for myself, I was attracted to the new medium because of the user-friendliness of it, and the total lack of surface noise - forever.
Well that was over 30 years ago. I kept my LPs. (Thank God). And today I listen to my LPs, still sounding as good as ever ((I've just bought my first new LP in 30 years), I buy CDs in charity shops and (used) on Amazon for pence, and I find I have accumulated about 400 FLACS on my network hard-drive. We've never had it so good. My grandson is 19. He plays bass guitar in (quite a good) group. All his music is digital. All downloaded. It's a different world. But it definitely isn't a worse one.

[RMutt]

Exactly. And pretty soon CD's were portable in discmen, car radios etc. and still sounded great. No wonder they took over from records.

[Arkless Electronics]

Dyson now make an, allegedly, "digital" vacuum cleaner FFS!!! Quite how a vacuum cleaner can be "digital" is beyond me...

[Olddiverman]

Absolutely right Andrew. Steam railways anyone?

[Olddiverman]

Ha ha. I quite agree with Jez. But what has that to do with the OP's question?

[Marco]

Just look at the zombies wandering round staring at their phones and the couples who go out to dinner and keep checking their phones. There is a nasty addiction almost like a drug working here which ensnares the masses and instead of looking at the world around them they see it all through a screen.Their social life is now accessed via a screen and music comes from a streamed load of digital files.


Ah yes, affectionately known as iZombies!

I'm with you all they way there, and it boils my piss in a major way. Quite simply, becoming a slave to technological gadgetry does not represent progress, and it's killing many aspects of our human development, as evidenced in so many different ways today, it's frightening...

Thank goodness both Del and I are largely divorced from 'normal life', as lived by most these days, and so don't need to be 'connected' 24/7. I mean, we're so weird that we can go away for 2 weeks holiday, and somehow 'survive' without any mobile phones, laptops, tablets, iPads or Kindles - and get this - we sit and TALK TO EACH OTHER, too!! :eek::mental:

Yes, I know, a psychiatrist would have a field day! :D

Marco.

[Arkless Electronics]

Absolutely right Andrew. Steam railways anyone?

Good example actually:D Steam trains were pretty advanced by the time they were phased out and could reliably do London to Edinburgh at high speed... they could also be maintained to last decades! Now then, must put some more coal in the Pentium 4 I'm typing this on:eyebrows:

[Jimbo]

Ah yes, affectionately known as iZombies!

I'm with you all they way there, and it boils my piss in a major way. Quite simply, becoming a slave to technological gadgetry does not represent progress, and it's killing many aspects of our human development, as evidenced in so many different ways today, it's frightening...

Thank goodness both Del and I are largely divorced from 'normal life', as lived by most these days, and so don't need to be 'connected' 24/7. I mean, we're so weird that we can go away for 2 weeks holiday, and somehow 'survive' without any mobile phones, tablets, iPads or Kindles - and get this - we sit and TALK TO EACH OTHER, too!! :eek::mental:

Yes, I know, a psychiatrist would have a field day! :D

Marco.

Liberating I would say, disconnected from the techno gadgets!

[Olddiverman]

I knew when I wrote it that it was a bad example. I LOVE steam trains. I'm 70 and, as a child, travelled on steam trains and became a trainspotter. Wonderful days. BUT. Can steam power compete in 2017, with electric, diesel, nuclear, solar and any others I don't know about? No. Sad but true.

[paulf-2007]

Hi Clive,



You can certainly overcome pops! Simply clean records thoroughly through an RCM, one of which should be owned by any serious vinyl and T/T owner.





Marco.the majority of the public are not sad cases....oops sorry serious vinyl and tt owners and have never heard of an rcm. Remember those old photos of young people sitting on the floor with a Dansette and records strewn over the nylon carpet. Is it any wonder folk embraced cd.

[Marco]

Exactly. And pretty soon CD's were portable in discmen, car radios etc. and still sounded great. No wonder they took over from records.

And yet the LP's nemesis is now considered as 'obsolete', as far as what's used in cars, as everything moves to digital-media receivers, fed from iPhones, whilst sales of records go from strength to strength!

How'd have thunk it, eh? ;)

Oh, the irony........

Marco.

[Marco]

the majority of the public are not sad cases....oops sorry serious vinyl and tt owners and have never heard of an rcm. Remember those old photos of young people sitting on the floor with a Dansette and records strewn over the nylon carpet. Is it any wonder folk embraced cd.

Indeed, but it doesn't mean that it *has* to be that way! That's the point. Plus, there's nothing "sad" about striving for the best or getting the most out of whatever it is you own. If you think that, then you shouldn't be posting on an audio forum, specifically aimed at enthusiasts... ;)

Marco.

[RMutt]

And yet the LP's nemesis is now considered as 'obsolete', as far as what's used in cars, as everything moves to digital-media receivers, fed from iPhones, whilst sales of records go from strength to strength!

How'd have thunk it, eh? ;)

Oh, the irony........

Marco.

Of course. magiccarpetride was interested in views as to why vinyl sales declined. It's the same reason CD sales will decline. Something more convenient for the 'normal' listener comes along.

[Marco]

No problem, but I'd say more like 'average', than normal. That word fits the context better :)

Thus: "More convenient for the average listener". I don't buy the notion that there is anything abnormal about being discerning.

Marco.

[Macca]

Of course. magiccarpetride was interested in views as to why vinyl sales declined. It's the same reason CD sales will decline. Something more convenient for the 'normal' listener comes along.

Agree. Not enough of us to make anything more than a peripheral impact on a mass market commodity. For every enthusiast with a serious set up there are a million people who buy the same music and listen to it on at best from a phone through a twenty quid Bluetooth speaker and are fine with that.

[Marco]

Yes, probably the same folk who are satisfied with some 'chicken ding', for their dinner, washed down with a bottle of £5 plonk from Bargain Booze... Thank fuck it doesn't have to be that way either! :eyebrows:;)

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

[...] simply because as humans, when we're exposed to it, analogue sound has something intrinsically 'right' about it that digital simply doesn't deliver.

OK, you have to set your story straight, man. In some other threads you are raving about how a properly set digital chain sounds literally indistinguishable from a properly set analogue chain (and vice versa). You seem to swear by that paradigm. But now we hear you claiming that 'analogue sound has something intrinsically 'right' about it that digital simply doesn't deliver'. So which is it -- are the two formats equal, or is one superior to the other? (you know my answer to that, but I'd like to hear your honest answer)

[Marco]

OK, you have to set your story straight, man. In some other threads you are raving about how a properly set digital chain sounds literally indistinguishable from a properly set analogue chain (and vice versa). You seem to swear by that paradigm. But now we hear you claiming that 'analogue sound has something intrinsically 'right' about it that digital simply doesn't deliver'. So which is it -- are the two formats equal, or is one superior to the other? (you know my answer to that, but I'd like to hear your honest answer)

Lol... I never said "literally indistinguishable". Now you're putting words in my mouth. What I said in other threads was that when the quality of vinyl and digital playback equipment is equalised, the differences in sound between both formats is small, to the point that sometimes you can forget whether you're listening to a record or CD.

However, differences still exist, and I'm on record here as ultimately preferring vinyl because, to my ears, there *is* something more 'intrinsically right' with how it treats recorded music, compared with CD. Therefore, my overall preference is still for analogue sound, at its best! :)

Marco.

[Macca]

I'm not meaning to sound snobbish about it. The important thing is that people listen to music and get off on it. Even if the delivery mechanism is the equivalent of chicken ding. The day no-one is into music anymore will be the last day.

[magiccarpetride]

Lol... I never said "literally indistinguishable". Now you're putting words in my mouth. What I said in other threads was that when the quality of vinyl and digital playback equipment is equalised, the differences in sound between both formats is small, to the point that sometimes you can forget whether you're listening to a record or CD.

However, differences still exist, and I'm on record here as ultimately preferring vinyl because, to my ears, there *is* something more 'intrinsically right' with how it treats recorded music, compared with CD. Therefore, my overall preference is still for analogue sound, at its best! :)

Marco.

Thanks for the clarification. I now realize I misread those posts. I have yet to experience this equalized situation, where I'm not sure whether it's analog or digital playing, but I'll take your word for it. (maybe if I'm listening from a different room, but if I'm sitting in a sweet spot, there's no way that I won't be aware of what's playing; and I'm not referring to surface noise or absence of it thereof!)

[magiccarpetride]

I'm not meaning to sound snobbish about it. The important thing is that people listen to music and get off on it. Even if the delivery mechanism is the equivalent of chicken ding. The day no-one is into music anymore will be the last day.


When I was a tiny-weeny little kid, I heard, for the first time ever, the Beatles "A Hard Day's Night" song on my grandma's crappy kitchen radio. I remember distinctly how transfixed my entire little body was upon hearing that sound.

I honestly doubt that I'd be as equally (or even as marginally) transfixed if, by some fucked up back-to-the-future freak accident my grandma was listening to the Beatles on her iPhone back then.

[Marco]

I'm not meaning to sound snobbish about it. The important thing is that people listen to music and get off on it. Even if the delivery mechanism is the equivalent of chicken ding. The day no-one is into music anymore will be the last day.

I agree, but it would be interesting to show those folk how their music could sound when reproduced by better equipment, which needn't necessarily be expensive, and if done, I suspect that their changed perspectives would for some alter how they chose to listen to music in future.

Marco.

[Jimbo]

Vinyl must always be kept alive to show other generations what true audiophile sound quality is. It is the benchmark for ALL music reproduction.

[walpurgis]

Vinyl must always be kept alive to show other generations what true audiophile sound quality is. It is the benchmark for ALL music reproduction.

Trouble is, most folk wouldn't give a toss about "audiophile sound quality". In fact I reckon the majority don't know what it means and probably have never heard the term. Many people not even knowing that there are 'different grades' of sound quality. Cynical maybe, but reality I think.

[RMutt]

I agree, but it would be interesting to show those folk how their music could sound when reproduced by better equipment, which needn't necessarily be expensive, and if done, I suspect that their changed perspectives would for some alter how they chose to listen to music in future.

Marco.

But that is the point. CD and now other digital media is doing just that.

[struth]

Trouble is, most folk wouldn't give a toss about "audiophile sound quality". In fact I reckon the majority don't know what it means and probably have never heard the term. Many people not even knowing that there are 'different grades' of sound quality. Cynical maybe, but reality I think.

most dont seem to care too much. and by that i mean everyone. we are the oddities

[Marco]

Thanks for the clarification. I now realize I misread those posts. I have yet to experience this equalized situation, where I'm not sure whether it's analog or digital playing, but I'll take your word for it. (maybe if I'm listening from a different room, but if I'm sitting in a sweet spot, there's no way that I won't be aware of what's playing; and I'm not referring to surface noise or absence of it thereof!)

No problem. For me, the situation is very simple:

Experience has taught me that the best turntables (i.e. those which minimise, as far as possible, the intrinsic distortions and limitations of vinyl, whilst mechanically imposing as little of their 'sonic signature' as possible on the music), essentially sound like the best CD players, simply because the sound produced by both is free from any distinctive sonic aberrations.

At the end of the day, it's *all* about, as far as possible, faithfully reproducing the musical information contained on either a CD or LP. If in that respect, high-fidelity is the goal, then you don't want the equipment used to have any distinct 'sound' of its own - and to achieve *that* is what costs money, and takes time and effort!

In my opinion, the reason why people find that vinyl sounds 'markedly different' to CD, is mostly down to the turntable they're using not having sufficiently addressed the bits in bold, above. Plus, some folks are simply seduced by the resulting euphonic coloration, created by a substandard turntable, which makes vinyl sound falsely 'nice'.

But that's NOT how it should sound, and indeed *can* sound, when both the playback equipment and the recording quality contained on the vinyl itself, have been optimised. Interestingly though, when it comes to a turntable, some folk seem to want to hear its 'character'. Me? I just want to hear the music, as unsullied as possible!

Marco.

[walpurgis]

most dont seem to care too much. and by that i mean everyone. we are the oddities

Hi-Fi is about as 'niche' as photography I'd say. Technical pursuits have their own language and the uninformed are largely in the dark.

[Marco]

But that is the point. CD and now other digital media is doing just that.

Not unless it's reproduced on decent equipment.

Marco.

[struth]

Hi-Fi is about as 'niche' as photography I'd say. Technical pursuits have their own language and the uninformed are largely in the dark.

the vast majority of folk dont have a camera as such, just like hifi.. they use their phone, and maybe a external speaker to bluetooth to, but mostly to headphones. mobile phones are the Swiss Army knife of 21st century. sure they will soon have an app for cutting things

[walpurgis]

mobile phones are the Swiss Army knife of 21st century. sure they will soon have an app for cutting things

But is there an app that lets you connect a turntable to it? :D (probably is :rolleyes:)

[Marco]

the vast majority of folk dont have a camera as such, just like hifi.. they use their phone, and maybe a external speaker to bluetooth to, but mostly to headphones.

Yes, but do we, as discerning enthusiasts, care what the "vast majority of folk" do? I don't, as most are not part of my world, as I purposely surround myself with discerning people, who like me, like the best, not those who are content with mediocre! ;)

Marco.

[struth]

Yes, but do we, as discerning enthusiasts, care what the "vast majority of folk" do? I don't, as most are not part of my world, as I purposely surround myself with discerning people, who like me, like the best, not those who are happy with mediocre! ;)

Marco.


Not really or I'd be on facebook babbling to my self, instead of babbling here to myself mosty :D Just stating why even cd is outdated to most folk.they just use their phones. A good chunk of young folk buying records are doing so to connect with the bands they like, but probably dont have a record player

[Macca]

most dont seem to care too much. and by that i mean everyone. we are the oddities

This is the truth. What you want is a roadshow that goes around schools demonstrating a proper system. The youths can play their own music on it and get an idea of what is possible. Would need money to do that though. No chance of getting funding. Would create a whole new generation of enthusiasts I think, especially if you could cover enough ground.

[RMutt]

Not unless it's reproduced on decent equipment.

Marco.

I disagree. If you take into account the conditions most people listen to music. Not with their mains conditioned. Not on their own in silence. But. On the move. Noise in the background. Party whatever. Under those circumstances digital is better.

[walpurgis]

I disagree. If you take into account the conditions most people listen to music. Not with their mains conditioned. Not on their own in silence. But. On the move. Noise in the background. Party whatever. Under those circumstances digital is better.

Yes. It can be tricky carrying a turntable, amp and speakers about. :)

[Marco]

I disagree. If you take into account the conditions most people listen to music. Not with their mains conditioned. Not on their own in silence. But. On the move. Noise in the background. Party whatever. Under those circumstances digital is better.

Fair enough, but why concern yourself with what "most people" do? My contention is that "most people" would change their habits, if they were better educated - and that applies not just with hi-fi, but many other things in life! ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

Yes. It can be tricky carrying a turntable, amp and speakers about. :)

Indeed! :D

And so, I'm not really getting Andrew's point.... :hmm:

Marco.

[Macca]

You don't see anyone on the train or plane with a personal cassette player anymore. But tens of millions of them were sold. Very few people care if it is digital or analogue. And why would they? Music is music.

[walpurgis]

Fair enough, but why concern yourself with what "most people" do? My contention is that "most people" would change their habits, if they were better educated - and that applies not just with hi-fi, but many other things in life! ;)

Marco.

Every "other thing" mate.

There are many who's homes do not even contain books for instance. I really hate people who resolutely reject anything remotely resembling education. I've known a few, they think it's their right and all part of the image to just claim benefit and booze at every opportunity, whilst pumping out enough kids to get top whack for doing fuck all of any use.

[walpurgis]

Very few people care if it is digital or analogue.

And only a minute percentage would possess the remotest idea of the difference.

[magiccarpetride]

just claim benefit and booze at every opportunity, whilst pumping out enough kids to get top whack for doing fuck all of any use.

This is the most tactful thing I read in a long time!

[magiccarpetride]

And only a minute percentage would possess the remotest idea of the difference.

But wait a minute -- since when did the unwashed masses become the decisive arbiters of anything? Who gives a fuck about what unwashed masses can or cannot discern? They are slotted as fodders for the cannons anyway.

[magiccarpetride]

No problem. For me, the situation is very simple:

Experience has taught me that the best turntables (i.e. those which minimise, as far as possible, the intrinsic distortions and limitations of vinyl, whilst mechanically imposing as little of their 'sonic signature' as possible on the music), essentially sound like the best CD players, simply because the sound produced by both is free from any distinctive sonic aberrations.

At the end of the day, it's *all* about, as far as possible, faithfully reproducing the musical information contained on either a CD or LP. If in that respect, high-fidelity is the goal, then you don't want the equipment used to have any distinct 'sound' of its own - and to achieve *that* is what costs money, and takes time and effort!

In my opinion, the reason why people find that vinyl sounds 'markedly different', is mostly down to the turntable they're using not having sufficiently addressed the bits in bold, above. Plus, some folks are simply seduced by the resulting euphonic coloration, created by a substandard turntable, which makes vinyl sound falsely 'nice'.

But that's NOT how it should sound, and indeed *can* sound, when both the playback equipment and the recording quality contained on the vinyl itself, have been optimised.

Marco.

After hearing how really good high end digital systems sound, I think I understand the difference. The reason I prefer my turntable to those reference non-distorting systems may be because, as Marco says, I'm simply seduced by the resulting euphonic coloration, created by a substandard turntable, which makes vinyl sound falsely 'nice'.

If the super exciting music that is pouring out of my turntable now is what people in the know call falsely 'nice', I'm totally okay with that. I'd much rather go with falsely 'nice' than with cold hearted 'correct', non-distorting reference system.

[walpurgis]

This is the most tactful thing I read in a long time!

We aim to please (I think :scratch:) :)

[RMutt]

Indeed! :D

And so, I'm not really getting Andrew's point.... :hmm:

Marco.

The point being, not what you or I think about what provides the ultimate sound for us. But why people went digital in the first place ,remember magiccarpetrides opening question?

[walpurgis]

Who gives a fuck about what unwashed masses can or cannot discern?

That was more or less the point!

[walpurgis]

I'd much rather go with falsely 'nice' than with cold hearted 'correct'

Good distinction! I think there's a middle path though.

[magiccarpetride]

Hi-Fi is about as 'niche' as photography I'd say. Technical pursuits have their own language and the uninformed are largely in the dark.

Hi fi is about as niche as food. There are people who are picky when it comes to the food they eat. Yes, they may be in minority, but still there is a huge industry set to serve those people. I don't think the global population of 'foodies' is in any significant way larger than the global population of 'soundists' (i.e. a made up word by me, denoting people who are picky when it comes to what kind of reproduced music they listen to).

[Marco]

The point being, not what you or I think about what provides the ultimate sound for us. But why people went digital in the first place ,remember magiccarpetrides opening question?

Fair enough :)

I wasn't amongst them though, as fortunately at the time I owned a very good T/T, which successfully made the most of the vinyl format, thus didn't feel shortchanged by it... ;)

Marco.

[Marco]

After hearing how really good high end digital systems sound, I think I understand the difference. The reason I prefer my turntable to those reference non-distorting systems may be because, as Marco says, I'm simply seduced by the resulting euphonic coloration, created by a substandard turntable, which makes vinyl sound falsely 'nice'.

If the super exciting music that is pouring out of my turntable now is what people in the know call falsely 'nice', I'm totally okay with that. I'd much rather go with falsely 'nice' than with cold hearted 'correct', non-distorting reference system.

At the end of the day, *the* most important thing is that YOU like the sound of what you're hearing :)

The fact is though, something that's genuinely accurate doesn't have to sound cold.

Marco.

[magiccarpetride]

At the end of the day, *the* most important thing is that YOU like the sound of what you're hearing :)

The fact is though, something that's genuinely accurate doesn't have to sound cold.

Marco.

I agree. It's just that any time I was in the situation to listen to some 'reference' system, that was retailing for like $300,000, I would always leave with that uneasy feeling that I've just listened to something clinically perfect, something ultra polished and professionally done, but lacking the street cred and that rude, crude but at the same time refined debauchery.

Then I go home to my substandard turntable, and enjoy its unapologetically raunchy, wanton, balls-to-the-wall presentation. Yes, there are details to be detected in there, yes there is a soundstage there, there is some fucking imaging there, but who gives a fuck when you're drinking this divine ambrosia, this unsurpassed thick and juicy tone! There is enough garlic on my turntable to make your eyes itchy and all watery, so it definitely is not the sound for the buttoned up and the squeamish.

The thing is, although I know that my turntable is far from being accurate, it is nevertheless larger than life, and that's what I like about it. Inaccurate as fuck, but larger than life!

[Marco]

Lol.... Yes, but you can have BOTH "ultra polished and perfectly done", and "unsurpassed thick and juicy tone", exhibited by BOTH your CDP *and* turntable, in (virtually) equal measure!

If you think that by "accurate", or musically faithful, I mean the type of clinical sound you're describing from the stated "reference system", then we're singing from rather different hymn sheets ;)

Marco.

[Jimbo]

After hearing how really good high end digital systems sound, I think I understand the difference. The reason I prefer my turntable to those reference non-distorting systems may be because, as Marco says, I'm simply seduced by the resulting euphonic coloration, created by a substandard turntable, which makes vinyl sound falsely 'nice'.

If the super exciting music that is pouring out of my turntable now is what people in the know call falsely 'nice', I'm totally okay with that. I'd much rather go with falsely 'nice' than with cold hearted 'correct', non-distorting reference system.

Alex you are a man after my own heart. I agree 100% with your last statement!:thumbsup:

[Marco]

Yes, but the point is you don't *have* to choose between either! You CAN have the best of both worlds, *if* you use the right kind of digital source and turntable :)

Marco.

[paulf-2007]

Indeed, but it doesn't mean that it *has* to be that way! That's the point. Plus, there's nothing "sad" about striving for the best or getting the most out of whatever it is you own. If you think that, then you shouldn't be posting on an audio forum, specifically aimed at enthusiasts... ;)

Marco.ffs Marco, that was obviously a joke, I include myself in this madness. We are in the minority and are viewed by many as odd because of it. Most enthusiasts don't advertise the fact in company because most people don't understand hifi and quality sound. Most people who hear my set up only comment on how clear it sounds.

[Marco]

What's the "ffs", for? Your previous post, Paul, didn't come across as a joke, as there were no smilies to indicate such, or any other evidence of irony I could see. Read it again and see how you think it comes across:


the majority of the public are not sad cases....oops sorry serious vinyl and tt owners and have never heard of an rcm. Remember those old photos of young people sitting on the floor with a Dansette and records strewn over the nylon carpet. Is it any wonder folk embraced cd.

In my book, there's a marked difference between being 'odd', and a 'sad case'. If you consider yourself as a 'sad case', simply because you enjoy music and like it to sound good, then reserve that label for yourself. 'Odd' though, is quite cool.

As for this:


Most enthusiasts don't advertise the fact in company because most people don't understand hifi and quality sound. Most people who hear my set up only comment on how clear it sounds.


Again, speak for yourself. I have many good friends who are into hi-fi (and music), in the same way as me, and we socialise together on a regular basis, and that includes my wife. It doesn't have to be a solitary thing.

Furthermore, strangers visiting, who aren't into hi-fi, are always amazed/impressed with my 'mad set up', so I'm quite happy to advertise it, as I'm proud of it! :ner:

Marco.

[Audio Al]

When people come to my home its more a " WTF " moment :eek:

[struth]

When people come to my home its more a " WTF " moment :eek:

Can imagine Al:eyebrows: like going back in time to the Comet hifi section. :D

[petrat]

When people come to my home its more a " WTF " moment :eek:

:rofl:

For sure, your stock level beats most of the retailers that I know. I would probably bankrupt myself if you ever do decide to open for business :D

[Marco]

When people come to my home its more a " WTF " moment :eek:

Now *THAT* I get!! If you stuck some prices tags on, you'd probably get a few sales :D

Marco.

[alphaGT]

Here I go once again, coming in at the end. Not sure how this happens?
But to address the original question, here in the States, when vinyl gave way to CD, there was no dropping of vinyl sales, in fact vinyl was selling at an all time high! 1979 and 1980 saw some of the highest numbers ever in vinyl sales, and cassettes were outselling them too! And I went to the record store one week, and there was a small rack of CD's near the register. A dozen at most to choose from. A week later I came back and all the albums were gone! The store was slam full of CD's! I asked the salesman who I knew fairly well from my weekly visits, "What happened to all the records?", to which he said, " they came in a truck and threw them all in the back like trash.". I heard stories that they burned whole warehouses full of vinyl! Brand new vinyl, they didn't even bother to try and sell it off before selling the CD's. And at that time, almost no one I knew even knew what a CD was! But records had sold for $7.50 for over 10 years, and suddenly CD's were $16! And everyone rushed out and bought a new CD player, and wow there was some junk out there. I bought a Sansui, thinking that was a name of quality, and it didn't last 3 months, and could never be fixed. They gave up and gave me a choice of a new one, so I got a Sony. And that was a fairly nice one, but junk by any reasonable standards. People threw out their vinyl collections, friends gave me their collections! Which made me happy. Everyone bought into Perfect Sound Forever hook line and sinker. And then were horrified when the tiniest scratch caused the fantastic skipping! They called me, "what has gone wrong with my player?" And I pointed out a tiny spot they could barely see on the disc that was causing it. Many people gave away all their vinyl albums and bought their collections all over again on CD! And I wound up with a lot of extra records, some were in terrible shape, but many were quite good. So here in the states there was no declining period of failing vinyl sales, they were selling at an all time high when CD's were unceremoniously shoved down our throats. CD's were cheaper to make, and they charged twice as much, so there was no mystery as to why they were in a hurry to convert everyone.

I had a CD player before anyone else I knew had one. And at first I was wowed by the clear sound and lack of surface noise, and ease of use. But right away, they sold a bunch of CD's that came from vinyl master tapes, and they failed to re-equalize them. The treble was so high female vocals would pierce your ears and bass was non existent. Record companies not paying attention and getting in a hurry to convert. I knew right away this wasn't right. And in fact, it was several years before I heard a CD that actually sounded good. So I never gave up my record player, in fact bought a high end table, well it was to me, a Denon with the fancy tone arm, and a $200 cartridge! Back then, they didn't get much more expensive than that. And I played my vinyl all along, I collected CD's too, but did not replace the albums I already owned on vinyl. And I sold a lot of CD's too, the ones that sounded horrible. After a while, once the Internet was invented, and eBay came into being, I started buying used vinyl. So I've got about 200 CDs today. Maybe less. And it was about 1990 before I ever owned a decent CD player, that was when I realized that there may be something to this digital thing? A Sony 608ES, a fine player that lasted me 29 years. So, while some "Soundists", may still appreciate vinyl, for the masses it was a good move. Most of the albums that were given to me were scratched beyond use. I have yet to figure out why, but the majority of people do not possess the ability to be careful.

I finally had to replace that Denon, so I got a Project Debut, and decked it out with extras. It was a very nice table. But when I moved up to the Scout, I gave the Project to my son in law, and he fell in love with Vinyl! Ran out and bought nearly 100 records! My daughter and he had outgrown rap and pop music, at 26 she discovered an all Beatles station, and he was all about Classic Rock, so they are fully vested Vinyl nuts now! He went and bought a $1500 table to upgrade, so there is a section of young people under 30 who have discovered vinyl for the first time. They like the sound, but they also like the full sized jackets, the physical handling and playing of the record, it's all very retro for them. Of course my daughter has seen me playing records throughout her whole childhood.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Pierre De Grenoble]

+1 on both, although you need to invest in a spellchecker! ;)

Marco.


other fora have them built in... :sofa: :D

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Vinyl must always be kept alive to show other generations what true audiophile sound quality is. It is the benchmark for ALL music reproduction.

I'm a vinyl lover with a 1000+ Cd's but there are other sources that qualify as audiophile (Reel to Reel for one) and bench marks are constantly moving.

My own experience is that Joe "chicken Ding" and his "snapchat" offspring do not give a monkies about audiophile sound quality / reproduction or even forming a collection of music at all.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Hi-Fi is about as 'niche' as photography I'd say. Technical pursuits have their own language and the uninformed are largely in the dark.

+1

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Not really or I'd be on facebook babbling to my self, instead of babbling here to myself mosty :D Just stating why even cd is outdated to most folk.they just use their phones. A good chunk of young folk buying records are doing so to connect with the bands they like, but probably dont have a record player

My 15 year old grand daughter is the proud owner ( and I do mean proud ) of a new sealed record by some now out of date boy band from Merthyr. needless to say there is no TT in her house and it will never get played. My daughter who is mid 30's has a very wide musical taste ( some rubbed off me) and she hasn't even a CD player. it's iPhone and a cheap dock.

Re the thread start this is the reason record sales died, and in case anyone hasn't noticed CD's are also heading for history.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Yes. It can be tricky carrying a turntable, amp and speakers about. :)

used to do it all the time when I was a kid. It was made by dansette..

which could possibly open up another conversation along the lines of people do not "share" their love of music anymore...

[Macca]

.

My own experience is that Joe "chicken Ding" and his "snapchat" offspring do not give a monkies about audiophile sound quality / reproduction or even forming a collection of music at all.

Point I was making earlier is that they do have a collection of music and do enjoy it on their midi system or in the car. The only reasons they don't improve their systems is that they think proper kit costs loads or they have not heard it for themselves and so are sceptical.

Years ago now I was running a modest but pleasant sounding system and the landlord sent in a builder to plaster over the artex in the hall. Typical bloke builder with 'Sunday Sport' T-shirt and knock off Armani jeans covered in paint.

I was playing some metal and he came in saying this was his sort of music. After he had a listen he asked me how much the kit had cost. (It was about £400 total). He couldn't believe it was so cheap, he said he expected me to say five grand. He said he wanted something similar so I sold him some speakers, he got an amp somewhere else for about fifty quid and he was off and running.

There is a lot of people like him. Thing is they look at through the hifi mags in the newsagent and the waffle means nothing to them and the prices of the kit reviewed are way beyond what they would or could spend so they think it is just something for the rich and forget about it.

[Pierre De Grenoble]

Point I was making earlier is that they do have a collection of music and do enjoy it on their midi system or in the car. The only reasons they don't improve their systems is that they think proper kit costs loads or they have not heard it for themselves and so are sceptical.

Years ago now I was running a modest but pleasant sounding system and the landlord sent in a builder to plaster over the artex in the hall. Typical bloke builder with 'Sunday Sport' T-shirt and knock off Armani jeans covered in paint.

I was playing some metal and he came in saying this was his sort of music. After he had a listen he asked me how much the kit had cost. (It was about £400 total). He couldn't believe it was so cheap, he said he expected me to say five grand. He said he wanted something similar so I sold him some speakers, he got an amp somewhere else for about fifty quid and he was off and running.

There is a lot of people like him. Thing is they look at through the hifi mags in the newsagent and the waffle means nothing to them and the prices of the kit reviewed are way beyond what they would or could spend so they think it is just something for the rich and forget about it.

There's always the 0.00001% who love their music enough to want to "hear it better" isn't that why we are here??

I think the point I am badly trying to make is that the majority of people simply don't care about improving their play back system. I 've lost count of the people who have been here gone WOW that's awesome! or similar and forgot all about once they are out of the door..

Interesting thread this, by the Way. even if I am late to the feast. :D

[Macca]

There's always the 0.00001% who love their music enough to want to "hear it better" isn't that why we are here??

I think the point I am badly trying to make is that the majority of people simply don't care about improving their play back system. I 've lost count of the people who have been here gone WOW that's awesome! or similar and forgot all about once they are out of the door..



My badly made point is that the builder was not in the 0.0001% until he found out that it wasn't as expensive as he thought.

Agree a lot do say 'this is great' but take it no further. They like music but it will never be anything more than something that happens in the background of their lives. They would never just sit down and listen for an hour or two. So I can appreciate it is not worth the effort for them. I still say there are a significant number of people who would join the 0.0001% if they only realised they could. The 'industry' puts them off IMV.

[Marco]

other fora have them built in... :sofa: :D

That's what the grey matter between your ears is for! :ner::D

Marco.

[struth]

There is also a sizable contingent that just dont want to talk about it and never go near forums etc. They are probably a lot bigger that forum populations as well judging by the ones ive met accidentally

[Macca]

There is also a sizable contingent that just dont want to talk about it and never go near forums etc. They are probably a lot bigger that forum populations as well judging by the ones ive met accidentally

Yep I think that is very true. Forums are just 10% of the 0.0001% ;)

[Haselsh1]

I simply cannot foresee a time when I pay for something that doesn't actually exist. I still have a nice collection of vinyl, most of it new and I have a nice collection of CD's. Regarding the 'nose dive' in vinyl, I suspect it was the same as the 'nose dive' in film a few years back. There are always going to be a bunch of suckers who actually believe the bullshit. They actually do believe that because it is a new trend it has to be the best thing since sliced Hovis.

[struth]

I simply cannot foresee a time when I pay for something that doesn't actually exist. I still have a nice collection of vinyl, most of it new and I have a nice collection of CD's. Regarding the 'nose dive' in vinyl, I suspect it was the same as the 'nose dive' in film a few years back. There are always going to be a bunch of suckers who actually believe the bullshit. They actually do believe that because it is a new trend it has to be the best thing since sliced Hovis.

Never thought i would either, but, what can i say? ;). It all started with films actually, but wouldnt want to lose my spotify now and my headphone rig ... it does get piped to main system too of course. Great for finding new music or something you might want to hear but maybe not own. Listening to the ost of the new junglebook, and have to sat the sound quality is very good...especially great for us who struggle to move about as well

[magiccarpetride]

I simply cannot foresee a time when I pay for something that doesn't actually exist. I still have a nice collection of vinyl, most of it new and I have a nice collection of CD's. Regarding the 'nose dive' in vinyl, I suspect it was the same as the 'nose dive' in film a few years back. There are always going to be a bunch of suckers who actually believe the bullshit. They actually do believe that because it is a new trend it has to be the best thing since sliced Hovis.

There is one other factor that is complicating the already complicated situation: LPs cannot be copied. At first, when I realized that I can borrow friend's CD and easily make a perfect copy that is absolutely indistinguishable from the original, I was enthralled. Unlike crappy cassette tape copies of the LPs, which never sounded as good as the original, the burned CD sounded exactly like the original CD.

But then later on I started realizing how that is actually cheapening the whole experience. Now all my friends have pretty much the exact same music libraries, because we all copied each others' collections.

With LPs, even of you have a friend who has the exact same records as you do, there is still a significant difference in there -- different pressings, each LP sounds slightly different from the same LP that was pressed before or after, or in a different country etc.

Variety is the spice of life, and with CDs, digital files, magical streaming from the magical cloud, this variety had completely vanished. It resulted in a vast see of indistinguishable clones. We are now reclaiming our individuality by turning our backs to the faceless world of virtual reality, and going bask to the real, tangible physical objects.

There is so much joy in discovering your own individuality!

[Pierre De Grenoble]

I simply cannot foresee a time when I pay for something that doesn't actually exist.

neither can I. I need something in my hand to hold and read or it simply doesn't seem right.

Only once have I paid to download an album and there was no CD issue of it (never mind vinyl).